As a Materials Scientist & Engineer / metallurgist, I enjoyed this hands-on practical _let's test!_ approach. I do have a few pointers though. Hardness is linked to ultimate tensile strength, or UTS. That's one of the key mechanical properties of any material, but it's not conclusive. Unless a material is fully brittle, the point where a material breaks is not the point where it starts to give. If a material has any ductility, it will yield before it breaks. Your hardness testing were useful, but not the full story. If you perform a tensile test, the first part is fully elastic. If you release the tension, the test piece will return to its original length. If you apply load to yield strength it will start to permanently deform. The "0.2% yield strength" is the ksi value (or MPa for metric folks) where, upon release, the test piece will permanently be 0.2% longer than before the test. Depending on how brittle or ductile a material is, the breaking strength (UTS) will be a bit, or actually quite a lot, higher. So while the 4200 block may appear to have a similar UTS value as the 2JZ block you tested, it doesn't tell you at what stress level a block will yield/permanently deform. It also doesn't give you another important tensile property, the A(%) value, which is elongation-until-break. Ductile cast iron will have a lower value for A(%) than cast aluminium. But hardness doesn't tell you if a material will bend/stretch/twist before it breaks, or if it shatters immediately. One more thing on your hardness tester: What you have is called a Leeb hardness tester. It infers hardness by measuring how a steel ball bounces of a surface. The angle at which you test, horizontal, vertical upwards or vertical downwards, _affects its readings!_ A high grade integrated tester may have an inclinometer build in, so it can correct for the direction in which the little ball is fired, but otherwise you have to make sure that you use the correct orientation, which typically is upright with the ball firing straight down. Also, since the device looks at bounce back, if you test on a very thin section, you will get a different reading compared to testing on a section with more mass behind it.
They have been making HUGE power with this motor in Australia for years. All that complex nonsense you wrote means nothing. 2JZ at some point moves to a billet block. Thats everything when your talking about living at thousands of HP.
@jeremywhittler8591 you missed the point. I know what those engines are capable of. This was only about what a hardness test can and can't tell you with regard to mechanical properties.
@@jeremywhittler8591 You could be a bit more polite than calling someone else's efforts "nonsense" They were providing some more insight on how the testing could've been improved since the youtuber is unfamiliar and unexperienced with the hardness tester. Nowhere did @hydrazine1000 comment on the capability of the 4.2vortec.
@@jeremywhittler8591 As far as I can tell the original point being made didn't have much to do with the engine quality so much as providing insight on testing procedures and how to get more out of testing. The individual didn't mention anything directly related to the vortec motors quality, so I'm unsure why you responded the way you did
You sound like you know your shit. I also enjoyed the Mythbusting approach of let's experiment and measure and see what's what. Your insight on how to get more objective data is invaluable. People are asking good money for this kind of advice.
My company has acquired a cylinder head and has been researching it. So far, despite the laughably small exhaust ports, the flow bench results have been promising and I am confident that we will be moving forward with development.
I've always said that power was all in your head. Yes - double meaning. ;) Look at how much power a GSXR (for example) makes with a small displacement. Awesome head design!
Vortec4200 fan from Finland here! Been watching your videos long time and motivated from those I pulled the trigger. Got myself a 4200 for 200€. Flanges for oilpan,intake,manifold and transmission are on their way. Im going to swap my E61 m54B25 with this 4200. Going to run with big turbo, Maxxecu and 8hp gearbox. In Finland I think there is no other 4200 build as the building of these engines has not arrived here. Thanks for the 4200wiki page. It is really helpfull!!
"Less" aftermarket support might be a better term.... BUT.... The 2JZ didn't come out of the womb with massive aftermarket support either. Give it time.
@@DrFiero fact. People forget JZ tuning didn’t take off for a pretty long time, way after RB26s. Most modified Supras used to be mostly cosmetic, often still on stock twins just with a boost upgrade etc. It’s only in the last fifteen or so years tuning really went wild with them
Brendo: not in the way it is now, not by a long shot. And even then that’s eleven years after the 2J first came out. Even in the early 2000s swapping JZs for RBs was a fairly normal thing in Japan as the RB so was much more supported. Nobody would do that now. I even owned a RB swapped JZ car
One of GM's biggest blunder was not utilizing this engine platform more, could've used it in the trucks and vans as the base engine, made a "small block" 3.2L version for use in like camaro's G8 etc... even factory turbo'd the engine
@@lieutenantdan8170 I think a crank with a touch less stroke would have better high rpm power capabilities. (Less harmonic vibrations. ) I'm already surprised they survive at the rpm's Calvin runs
I think a 3.6L atlas turbo would've been awesome for the Sigma ll V series cars, but they went with the LSA instead. Also, they could've shipped the Atlas to Australia to let them further develop the engine as a competitor to the Barra. That timeframe is when the rescission hit and GM was in shambles though. I wonder if they still have the tooling for the 4200 somewhere. I wish some automotive companies acknowledged some unfinished work in their legacy engines such as the Atlas and released all performance goodies and flywheels to connect them to later GM transmissions
@@pi55bieralso we had the already developed Buick v6 and an engine bay designed for short v6 and v8 engines, the straight six is LONG, and GM Holden cast the Buick v6 then the alloytech 2.8, 3.0, 3.2 and 3.6 v6 was assembled in Australia and sent around the world too. Straight sixes are not efficient for GM.
Damn, I just looked on marketplace and I can get a 4200 and the tranny already out of the blazer in 15 minutes for $500, so I can probably get the motor alone for $300. You have my attention, sir. I have a tundra approaching 300k. Runs great, it is my daily. But I know they fail around 300k. To put a mild 4200 in a yota would be epic. Blazer parts, like ECUs and harnesses shouldn't be too expensive either. Bro, you got my adhd fired up.
The biggest difference between iron and aluminum block strength is that due to the fatigue limit of aluminum. Aluminum is very strong, but longevity is the issue, especially the higher the forces placed on the block.
And it doesn't matter for blocks, because they don't experience stretching forces and a level that may cause a problem. That's why aluminum blocks are very common these days, but not rods.
Great vid! More swappers mean more data, more experience and more demand for aftermarket suppliers to wake up and make even more parts. I bought the turbo for my own build and I'm waiting to pull the trigger on the Artec manifold.. It's really expensive but as your vid on it, it's just the best option.
In addition to tensile strength, elastic modulus also makes a difference. That's a technical term for stiffness. Two materials with the same UTS may support the same amount of load, but the one with the lower modulus will stretch or bend or twist farther under that same load. If the difference is enough to cause damage to the mating parts, then the stiffness is the important characteristic in that application rather than the strength.
You're confusing Young's modulus (also called modulus of elasticity, or E-modulus) with yield strength. Yield strength is where a material gives in and deforms permanently. UTS is when it eventually breaks. Especially for ductile materials the yield stress is significantly below the ultimate tensile strength.
@@Hydrazine1000 I've been a mechanical engineer for thirty years. I know the difference between yield and breaking. My point about Young's modulus is that deflection can result in damage to other parts in a system even if the main structural component is still within its elastic range.
@@kevinjokipii4260Ok, sorry, I did not read your post the way you meant it. You meant "stretch bend or twist" in the purely elastic domain while I assumed plastic. Call that "professional distortion" if you will, because I have an MSc in Materials Science & Engineering.
Worked at a gmc dealer for 5 years. Only saw one failure due to lack of maintenence. 4200 was a good engine. 2.4 and 3.6 not so much. Great for my paycheck.
You have all most convinced me on one of these engines, you may have said it before but what is the best year to get for minimal upgrades and it will be a turbo engine as I am definitely a turbo type of guy, thanks for the information you put out not only on this engine but all the stuff you do on your Channel
I didn't realize it was that under square! Should have known from the displacement but wow that's some stroke. The VR38 and Coyote have both pretty well proved out aluminium engines. Personally the VK56de from like 04-15 is my dream swap. Over square, about a 1.68 rod/stroke, semi-closed deck, and a skirted block with 4 bolts + T's. It's cam on bucket so can't fit as angry cams as a secondary system. They're the same buckets as a VR so, oil galleries willing, they should take just as much lift with some clearancing.
Saying "aluminum block" is like saying "Black Shoe" there are more factors than just material like you said in the video. "My Buddy" only considers the material. "My Buddy" is a menace!
Some day I'm gonna get one of these built and it'll be thanks to your content. In the meantime, I get to geek out when you go down a rabbit hole. Great vid!
Awesome comparison. This motivates me more to grab a decent donor at the yard and just give it a good once over and prep it for a future unknown project. Keep it up as always.
These engines will become expensive soon whether we like it or not. They will be expensive because of supply or demand. I'd rather have it because of demand while there is still plenty of supply. Clout chasers will come no matter what.
I have an 04 and an 02 and always looking for the next deal. Have my eyes on an 08. I also have a Isuzu with the 5.3 I got for $400, TB $1900 250k, Envoy $1850 180k
Fantastic sciency video!!!!!!!! One other major factor to consider above ultimate tensile strength is Modulus of Elasticity. As in, a long crankshaft will be happier living in a block with the same bending properties, not to mention similar thermal expansion of ferrous crank/block combo.
10:30 To help folks visualize this: a tensile strength tester takes a strip or bar of your material, puts it between two clamps, and yanks on it until it breaks (yields), recording the force using sensors. Obviously a wider or thicker bar would take more force to break, so to account for this, we think of strength as the pounds of force it can take per unit of cross-sectional area (for a rectangular bar, the width x thickness). There are other strength values, like shear strength, but just like our hardness reading, the tensile strength gives us a good general idea of the “toughness” of our material.
Sorry, wait, hold your horses! When talking about tensile testing, yielding is _not breaking!_ (Unless you test brittle materials that don't stretch before breaking.) If you pull a tensile test piece a little bit, it behaves like a rubber band. It stretches but it returns to its original shape when you release the tension. That's elastic behavior. Once you pass a certain threshold the test piece will permanently stretch. The 0.2% yield stress is the stress where, upon release, the test piece has become 0.2% longer. This is plastic (and permanent) deformation. If the material you test is brittle then the yield stress is the same as the breaking stress, but a lot of materials are ductile. In that case the yield stress is considerably below the breaking stress, the stress where a tensile test piece actually separates into two pieces. That's the UTS, the ultimate tensile strength.
Nice work. what about the coefficient of thermal expansion? The more the material works, the weaker it becomes over time. This is where aluminum has a decisive disadvantage compared to cast iron.
How many head bolts do they have...also there is a gap between cylinder sleeves and sleeve next to cylinder ..exp1 to 2 and 2 to 3 ..so on..that gap maked it way less ridged ..they will flex deforme ...called cymise bore..plus its sleaved....that only thing i see being a issue..
I wish i could have got 1 of these motors for my 250ci Elco 6 that i struggled to get to perform but never had the funds for a v8 swap...... Would have loved my 3 on the tree, 76 Elco to have this motor with a floor shift 5/6 speed stick shift.......wouldve been rad back in the day 😂
It most definitely is a contributing factor When you use all design and engineering tools aspect and lessons to keep improving the product remembering the lessons from the past I only makes sit once to improve use newer materials incorporate better parts and have a lighter stronger more powerful and efficient product This is something I wanted to be involved in as a tradesman but only get to do maintenance Why so many companies often don’t change designs slightly to improve reliability services ability and efficiency etc always confounds me
I love your enthusiasm and devotion and it's nice to see something different being done but the new 2JZ? You have been using that line since I started following along. I think a better case can be made for the n54/b58 as the spiritual successor. An even better idea leave the 2JZ as it is and just talk about the others in their own right.
Hardness and tensile strength are not the only factors to consider, there's also the thermal properties of the block, regarding abilities to conduct heat from one cavity to the next and also expansion and warping under high heat.
I said this a while ago, the downfall to iron is it does not bend or flex, so once the material is over powered it cracks, where as aluminum flexs and expands and contracts. Which is why all the record breaking stock block LS cars are running sleeved aluminum blocks. The Honda kseries is a weaker aluminum block then the 4200 and their limit is around 1500 crank hp, thats 375hp a cylider, if you do the math for a 6 cylinder your talking about 2250 hp which is right in line with what the stock block limit is on a prime 2jz or barra.
@@Christdeliverme Sure and what happens when they do? They crack, RBs do it when since the AWD diff makes them flex more so then in a rwd application. My point proven.
I've been following your journey with these engines for a good while now and I think that you are spot on. These engines have massive potential. Any chance of you sending one over to the UK for me to start playing with? 😉
I'm considering selling my 1UZ and just keeping my SBC, but seeing all the barriers that kept my interest at bay aren't there, it now makes me want a 4200. It may be a while before I can afford a project to put it in, but I definitely do think this is the new 2JZ
Great information as always Calvin. I've always wondered about a 4200 in a Colorado/Canyon. Now I have my answer... sort of. Looks like it would be best to buy a "donor" SUV and work from there for the wiring, etc. It always bugged me that GM never put one in the pickup trucks. The 2800 and 3500 - although similar, just never excited me.
The part about the tensile strength tests is particularly interesting as a mech engineering student. This is exactly one of the things I've been learning at college right now. About aftermarket support, someone has to go first, right? We need to create alternatives.
Ford performance made an aftermarket coyote block of iron to do 3k horsepower but people haven't used it yet they're doing 3k with the aluminum block and stronger sleeves. I think the 4200s should get longer sleeves to fix the problem with the pistons sticking out at the bottom or get a destroke crank and cement fill the block for 2k+ hp. I've seen 2jz Crack around 1300-1400hp without cement fill but with cement they do 2000-2500hp
Been wanting to mess with one of these for ages. Hadn't dug as deep as you have obviously, but they always looked pretty impressive. I think the aftermarket will keep expanding. I don't think it will ever be as extensive as for the 2JZ, but it also doesn't need to be. Really a bummer GM didn't keep making these. With the I6 getting more popular again, I wonder if they will bring back an updated version.
You're leaving out a third measure known as "toughness"-- which is the inverse of "brittle". Materials can be very hard and increase their tensile strength, yet still be brittle and shatter easily. So there is a happy medium for the three. (hardness, toughness and tensile strength).
I remember looking into building the ford 4.9 and the jeep 4.0, because, you know...inline 6 turbo reasons...and what always seemed to come up was that the stroke was too long. Not to mention that cylinder head tech in those engines even with wildly altered one-off builds was poor at best. So, biggest question I have is: what transmissions bolt up to this thing? Im guessing it comes with a 4L60, can you get away with a 4L80, or a T56? Or, it would be tantalizing to use an adapter for a Nissan CD009 to LS if the basic idea is that whatever bolts to an LS will bolt to these. Glad you mentioned the rear sump aftearket pans, because I would love to try one of these as a drift car engine. Hopefully they have better oil priority than a LS.
You should do a buyers guide for someone looking to pick one of these engines up. Is it best to start with a donor vehicle, or is the bare engine enough? If I get an engine should I grab a wiring harness and computer also? What ever you think is most important for someone looking to get started playing with one of these engines.
Displacement wise, it's an American Barra. I often see American inline sixes as the most underrated engines from that country. America's forgotten engine I'd say.
It would have been interesting if you had the Ozzy Barra engine in your country to test as we think thats the down under version of the 2Jz and i live in New Zealand........
now to take one out my 08 trailblazer and swap it into my Miata 😂 😂.. man would that be rad and one hellava troll ... peace and love Cal . keep it rad stay safe , and build on my brethren .. l8z fam
You wont do it, that would be a cool swap with part of the head sticking out the hood though😂. Maybe not because the Aussie guys swapped a Barra into his and cam cover cleared the hood though….i vote swap and lets see lol
People saying "there's no aftermarket" -- are talking about bolt on turbo kits to really get power out of it. It can only become as legendary as the 2JZ if it can be built to 2000hp, like some of the wild 2JZ builds that are out there.
The wifes 2008 TB LT has 227,000 miles on it and the only engine part(other than spark plugs) I have replaced is the VVT solenoid which is external and relatively easy to replace. The only other non sacrificial part I've replaced on the car is the fuel tank vapor emissions unit(wrong name probably) which is just in front of the rear end and easy to replace. I'm presently looking for a new vehicle for the wife but if I don't get her something with 290 HP, she is not going to be happy.
Being that the toyota JZ is getting scarce, the Atlas6 could be a good alternative. Mazda I6 turbo could be another alternative, maybe the Stellantis Hurricane I6 turbo, but they haven't worked out its bugs out yet. BMW has offerings, but they're expensive. Ford Barra is getting pricey too.
I heard that iron gets harder as it ages especially if baked in an oven a few times. Something to do with the crystalline structure improving the bonds between crystals For aluminum to be at maximum hardness and strength a part needs to be grown from a single crystal. The fan blades in a jet are each all one crystal .
Will a 4.2 atlas fit in a square body s10 early 90s, or would it be better fit for the 5 cylinder? Really wanting to build a typhoon type blaser and really don't want to use a 4.3. My other pick would be a 3800. Thanks for any advice.
The Mercedies Cosworth When driven like you stole it, hard with high RPM the timing chain craped out with more slap then a BDSM session, so some work with a hacksaw & file & you could just fit a duplex chain. Is there enough room to do the same to the 4200 ????? Kiwi Rod
That motor has a longer stroke than it's bore...if a solid bucket 2jz that 86mm bore and stroke with 720 cams revs to 7k rpm your saying u can Rev more with longer stroke and hydronic lifters ...even if had upgraded springs ud still float the valves....keep buying those motors..leave the 2jz stuff alone..2jz motors junk ..your right..
@@bryansenulis7242k24 has longer stroke then bore and followers. Coyotes also have followers. A roller cam can have very different lobe designs which don't limit ramp as much. Not saying 2jz is a bad design, it's just how things are.
I mean look, popularity is almost always a byproduct of aftermarket support, and aftermarket support is catylized from availability and notoriety in many cases. You've got one of the strongest designs to come from the 90's, compared to a newer design that can build on proven methods employed with past great engines. As far as availability, I would imagine the 2JZ outproduced the 4200 on a worldwide scale and so it's time on this planet with decade's of growing aftermarket backing keeps the 2J a well known king, while I'm in no doubt that theirs alot that could be proven to be as good or better from this lesser supported (at present) Chevy.
The alloy might permanently deform sooner....While not being an ultimate failure/crack. The modulas of elasticity would correspond to stiffness up to plastic deformation if I recall correctly.
People often over look the packaging of the engine. The 4200 fits in vehicles that are suited for a V8 and makes for a really nice drag and drive project. I would bet these engines with a turbo produce good fuel economy at cruise speeds.
As a Materials Scientist & Engineer / metallurgist, I enjoyed this hands-on practical _let's test!_ approach. I do have a few pointers though.
Hardness is linked to ultimate tensile strength, or UTS. That's one of the key mechanical properties of any material, but it's not conclusive. Unless a material is fully brittle, the point where a material breaks is not the point where it starts to give. If a material has any ductility, it will yield before it breaks.
Your hardness testing were useful, but not the full story. If you perform a tensile test, the first part is fully elastic. If you release the tension, the test piece will return to its original length. If you apply load to yield strength it will start to permanently deform. The "0.2% yield strength" is the ksi value (or MPa for metric folks) where, upon release, the test piece will permanently be 0.2% longer than before the test. Depending on how brittle or ductile a material is, the breaking strength (UTS) will be a bit, or actually quite a lot, higher.
So while the 4200 block may appear to have a similar UTS value as the 2JZ block you tested, it doesn't tell you at what stress level a block will yield/permanently deform. It also doesn't give you another important tensile property, the A(%) value, which is elongation-until-break. Ductile cast iron will have a lower value for A(%) than cast aluminium. But hardness doesn't tell you if a material will bend/stretch/twist before it breaks, or if it shatters immediately.
One more thing on your hardness tester: What you have is called a Leeb hardness tester. It infers hardness by measuring how a steel ball bounces of a surface. The angle at which you test, horizontal, vertical upwards or vertical downwards, _affects its readings!_ A high grade integrated tester may have an inclinometer build in, so it can correct for the direction in which the little ball is fired, but otherwise you have to make sure that you use the correct orientation, which typically is upright with the ball firing straight down. Also, since the device looks at bounce back, if you test on a very thin section, you will get a different reading compared to testing on a section with more mass behind it.
They have been making HUGE power with this motor in Australia for years.
All that complex nonsense you wrote means nothing.
2JZ at some point moves to a billet block. Thats everything when your talking about living at thousands of HP.
@jeremywhittler8591 you missed the point. I know what those engines are capable of.
This was only about what a hardness test can and can't tell you with regard to mechanical properties.
@@jeremywhittler8591 You could be a bit more polite than calling someone else's efforts "nonsense"
They were providing some more insight on how the testing could've been improved since the youtuber is unfamiliar and unexperienced with the hardness tester. Nowhere did @hydrazine1000 comment on the capability of the 4.2vortec.
@@jeremywhittler8591 As far as I can tell the original point being made didn't have much to do with the engine quality so much as providing insight on testing procedures and how to get more out of testing. The individual didn't mention anything directly related to the vortec motors quality, so I'm unsure why you responded the way you did
You sound like you know your shit. I also enjoyed the Mythbusting approach of let's experiment and measure and see what's what. Your insight on how to get more objective data is invaluable. People are asking good money for this kind of advice.
My company has acquired a cylinder head and has been researching it. So far, despite the laughably small exhaust ports, the flow bench results have been promising and I am confident that we will be moving forward with development.
I've always said that power was all in your head. Yes - double meaning. ;)
Look at how much power a GSXR (for example) makes with a small displacement. Awesome head design!
When you're done developing....send the head to us...we'll get drag results
Vortec4200 fan from Finland here! Been watching your videos long time and motivated from those I pulled the trigger. Got myself a 4200 for 200€. Flanges for oilpan,intake,manifold and transmission are on their way. Im going to swap my E61 m54B25 with this 4200. Going to run with big turbo, Maxxecu and 8hp gearbox. In Finland I think there is no other 4200 build as the building of these engines has not arrived here. Thanks for the 4200wiki page. It is really helpfull!!
I’m amazed nobody’s caught on to the 5cyl version of the same engine yet, as tuned 5cyls sound AWESOME!
4cylinder 2.9/2900 version is going into my Opel with a turbo and 4 neutral 4L60 lol
@@young11984 that will be very cool, good luck with it!
See 80's Audi Quattro
I imagined putting one in a C4 Corvette with a turbo and that idea just keep bouncing around my brain. I think it'd be a perfect vibe match
@@bobroberts2371
The Daza engine in my 2018 RS3 sounds sweet!
"Less" aftermarket support might be a better term.... BUT....
The 2JZ didn't come out of the womb with massive aftermarket support either. Give it time.
@@DrFiero fact. People forget JZ tuning didn’t take off for a pretty long time, way after RB26s. Most modified Supras used to be mostly cosmetic, often still on stock twins just with a boost upgrade etc.
It’s only in the last fifteen or so years tuning really went wild with them
Same as the Barra, 15 years later it was easy to get power.
Same goes for the RB as the Aussie aftermarket is mental for the RB now.
@@StavTech lolwut? The 2JZ was already a tuning legend in the USA when the first F&F movie came out in 2001.
Brendo: not in the way it is now, not by a long shot. And even then that’s eleven years after the 2J first came out.
Even in the early 2000s swapping JZs for RBs was a fairly normal thing in Japan as the RB so was much more supported. Nobody would do that now. I even owned a RB swapped JZ car
Thanks for the rep' Calvin 😊. Haters will always hate, just like all the SBC guys hated on the LS when it came out in 1997 😂
One of GM's biggest blunder was not utilizing this engine platform more, could've used it in the trucks and vans as the base engine, made a "small block" 3.2L version for use in like camaro's G8 etc... even factory turbo'd the engine
@@lieutenantdan8170 I think a crank with a touch less stroke would have better high rpm power capabilities. (Less harmonic vibrations. ) I'm already surprised they survive at the rpm's Calvin runs
That's certainly not one of their greatest blunders.
I think a 3.6L atlas turbo would've been awesome for the Sigma ll V series cars, but they went with the LSA instead. Also, they could've shipped the Atlas to Australia to let them further develop the engine as a competitor to the Barra. That timeframe is when the rescission hit and GM was in shambles though. I wonder if they still have the tooling for the 4200 somewhere. I wish some automotive companies acknowledged some unfinished work in their legacy engines such as the Atlas and released all performance goodies and flywheels to connect them to later GM transmissions
@@pi55bieralso we had the already developed Buick v6 and an engine bay designed for short v6 and v8 engines, the straight six is LONG, and GM Holden cast the Buick v6 then the alloytech 2.8, 3.0, 3.2 and 3.6 v6 was assembled in Australia and sent around the world too. Straight sixes are not efficient for GM.
Said the same in 80s with the r code olds 350 would been an awesome truck v8
Damn, I just looked on marketplace and I can get a 4200 and the tranny already out of the blazer in 15 minutes for $500, so I can probably get the motor alone for $300.
You have my attention, sir.
I have a tundra approaching 300k. Runs great, it is my daily. But I know they fail around 300k. To put a mild 4200 in a yota would be epic.
Blazer parts, like ECUs and harnesses shouldn't be too expensive either.
Bro, you got my adhd fired up.
The biggest difference between iron and aluminum block strength is that due to the fatigue limit of aluminum. Aluminum is very strong, but longevity is the issue, especially the higher the forces placed on the block.
And it doesn't matter for blocks, because they don't experience stretching forces and a level that may cause a problem. That's why aluminum blocks are very common these days, but not rods.
appreciate this video, i asked if you could do a 2jz vs 4200 video and you came through, hell yeah
I’m thankful Calvin is brining us much needed research on the 4200
Great vid! More swappers mean more data, more experience and more demand for aftermarket suppliers to wake up and make even more parts. I bought the turbo for my own build and I'm waiting to pull the trigger on the Artec manifold.. It's really expensive but as your vid on it, it's just the best option.
We have a few on our website and they're on sale. Hopefully that makes it a bit easier. www.paccracing.com/store/artec-vortec-4200-turbo-manifolds
In addition to tensile strength, elastic modulus also makes a difference. That's a technical term for stiffness. Two materials with the same UTS may support the same amount of load, but the one with the lower modulus will stretch or bend or twist farther under that same load. If the difference is enough to cause damage to the mating parts, then the stiffness is the important characteristic in that application rather than the strength.
Thank you! I found myself shouting at the tv, because my hands were full, when he was talking about strength.
You're confusing Young's modulus (also called modulus of elasticity, or E-modulus) with yield strength.
Yield strength is where a material gives in and deforms permanently. UTS is when it eventually breaks. Especially for ductile materials the yield stress is significantly below the ultimate tensile strength.
@@Hydrazine1000 I've been a mechanical engineer for thirty years. I know the difference between yield and breaking. My point about Young's modulus is that deflection can result in damage to other parts in a system even if the main structural component is still within its elastic range.
@@kevinjokipii4260Ok, sorry, I did not read your post the way you meant it. You meant "stretch bend or twist" in the purely elastic domain while I assumed plastic.
Call that "professional distortion" if you will, because I have an MSc in Materials Science & Engineering.
Brother, that is awesome!!! The 4200 is going to go a long way!!!
Worked at a gmc dealer for 5 years. Only saw one failure due to lack of maintenence. 4200 was a good engine. 2.4 and 3.6 not so much. Great for my paycheck.
You have all most convinced me on one of these engines, you may have said it before but what is the best year to get for minimal upgrades and it will be a turbo engine as I am definitely a turbo type of guy, thanks for the information you put out not only on this engine but all the stuff you do on your Channel
Solid video. Well reasoned. Sounds like this platform could be a lot of fun.
I agree and love your content bro! Can't wait for an update on the Caddy Coyote! 💪🤠
A ton of my family and friends worked at GM truck and bus building Blazers and TrailBlazers. The alcoholism and drug abuse there was off the charts!
That's probably true all over the planet.
@@Calvin-Nelson Wisdom good answer
I didn't realize it was that under square! Should have known from the displacement but wow that's some stroke. The VR38 and Coyote have both pretty well proved out aluminium engines. Personally the VK56de from like 04-15 is my dream swap. Over square, about a 1.68 rod/stroke, semi-closed deck, and a skirted block with 4 bolts + T's. It's cam on bucket so can't fit as angry cams as a secondary system. They're the same buckets as a VR so, oil galleries willing, they should take just as much lift with some clearancing.
Thank you Calvin for sharing this information. And wishing you and family a Blessed Thanksgiving
Saying "aluminum block" is like saying "Black Shoe" there are more factors than just material like you said in the video. "My Buddy" only considers the material. "My Buddy" is a menace!
I really enjoy your delivery of this tech info. Thanks. 👍💪
Love this platform. Thanks, Calvin!
Always love your videos!
Great info!
Calvin is wearing his uniform... greasy thermal undershirt...check, bed head...check 👍
Great video!
Love your channel!
The 70's Olds 403's had those same main web windows, and were known to be weak due to that. Great info in this video.
Always learn something new in your videos. This one was really good
Some day I'm gonna get one of these built and it'll be thanks to your content. In the meantime, I get to geek out when you go down a rabbit hole. Great vid!
I love all the info you share about these motors
Man i am so happy you guys are letting people know, how great these engines are.
Always great content, keep up the great work, love the father son vibe going on👍
Awesome comparison. This motivates me more to grab a decent donor at the yard and just give it a good once over and prep it for a future unknown project. Keep it up as always.
please don't post this publicly. if you enjoy a budget build, don't tempt the clout chasers
These engines will become expensive soon whether we like it or not. They will be expensive because of supply or demand. I'd rather have it because of demand while there is still plenty of supply.
Clout chasers will come no matter what.
I’m at 189k miles and my trailblazer still pulls very hard and i still smoke people all the time 😂
I can just feel the hoarders cleaning them of of the junkyards and driving up the prices
Next thing ya know they’ll be in ever build at SEMA lol
if you need 4200 let me know I can get it for you and good price. Im located Levittown p.a @Calvin-Nelson
I have an 04 and an 02 and always looking for the next deal. Have my eyes on an 08. I also have a Isuzu with the 5.3 I got for $400, TB $1900 250k, Envoy $1850 180k
Dynamic torsional strength is a thing. But you made a very concise and thought provoking and clever vid really loved it..
Hey guys, ChrisFix here and boy do I have the swap for you!
Fantastic sciency video!!!!!!!!
One other major factor to consider above ultimate tensile strength is Modulus of Elasticity. As in, a long crankshaft will be happier living in a block with the same bending properties, not to mention similar thermal expansion of ferrous crank/block combo.
10:30 To help folks visualize this: a tensile strength tester takes a strip or bar of your material, puts it between two clamps, and yanks on it until it breaks (yields), recording the force using sensors. Obviously a wider or thicker bar would take more force to break, so to account for this, we think of strength as the pounds of force it can take per unit of cross-sectional area (for a rectangular bar, the width x thickness).
There are other strength values, like shear strength, but just like our hardness reading, the tensile strength gives us a good general idea of the “toughness” of our material.
Sorry, wait, hold your horses! When talking about tensile testing, yielding is _not breaking!_ (Unless you test brittle materials that don't stretch before breaking.)
If you pull a tensile test piece a little bit, it behaves like a rubber band. It stretches but it returns to its original shape when you release the tension. That's elastic behavior. Once you pass a certain threshold the test piece will permanently stretch. The 0.2% yield stress is the stress where, upon release, the test piece has become 0.2% longer. This is plastic (and permanent) deformation. If the material you test is brittle then the yield stress is the same as the breaking stress, but a lot of materials are ductile. In that case the yield stress is considerably below the breaking stress, the stress where a tensile test piece actually separates into two pieces. That's the UTS, the ultimate tensile strength.
@Hydrazine1000 damn I been out of the game too long. 👆What they said
great video .. I like the material hardness information super cool
Excellent video! Giving off some Superfastmatt vibes 👍
He's so inspiring. I wish I made as good of videos as he did.
13:01 before testing pops head😂, red top Northstar lurking in the background
Would love to do a Vortec 4200 swap in 4.0 Jeeps. An inexpensive rear sump oil pan (stamped steel) would be great!
D4A is an *awesome* YT channel!!!!
Yeah. He's got some great vids.
Nice work. what about the coefficient of thermal expansion? The more the material works, the weaker it becomes over time. This is where aluminum has a decisive disadvantage compared to cast iron.
How many head bolts do they have...also there is a gap between cylinder sleeves and sleeve next to cylinder
..exp1 to 2 and 2 to 3 ..so on..that gap maked it way less ridged
..they will flex deforme ...called cymise bore..plus its sleaved....that only thing i see being a issue..
I wish i could have got 1 of these motors for my 250ci Elco 6 that i struggled to get to perform but never had the funds for a v8 swap......
Would have loved my 3 on the tree, 76 Elco to have this motor with a floor shift 5/6 speed stick shift.......wouldve been rad back in the day 😂
It most definitely is a contributing factor
When you use all design and engineering tools aspect and lessons to keep improving the product remembering the lessons from the past I only makes sit once to improve use newer materials incorporate better parts and have a lighter stronger more powerful and efficient product
This is something I wanted to be involved in as a tradesman but only get to do maintenance
Why so many companies often don’t change designs slightly to improve reliability services ability and efficiency etc always confounds me
I love your enthusiasm and devotion and it's nice to see something different being done but the new 2JZ? You have been using that line since I started following along. I think a better case can be made for the n54/b58 as the spiritual successor. An even better idea leave the 2JZ as it is and just talk about the others in their own right.
Hardness and tensile strength are not the only factors to consider, there's also the thermal properties of the block, regarding abilities to conduct heat from one cavity to the next and also expansion and warping under high heat.
I said this a while ago, the downfall to iron is it does not bend or flex, so once the material is over powered it cracks, where as aluminum flexs and expands and contracts. Which is why all the record breaking stock block LS cars are running sleeved aluminum blocks. The Honda kseries is a weaker aluminum block then the 4200 and their limit is around 1500 crank hp, thats 375hp a cylider, if you do the math for a 6 cylinder your talking about 2250 hp which is right in line with what the stock block limit is on a prime 2jz or barra.
You think like I do. You may or may not be right. However the facts support the hypothesis. Good post.
It does bend and flex it's quite ductile
They bend and flex much more than you might think !
@thewraith6360 k motors rod knock even with upgraded rods...like 90% of time. That must be that block flex that yall say is good right
@@Christdeliverme Sure and what happens when they do? They crack, RBs do it when since the AWD diff makes them flex more so then in a rwd application. My point proven.
SPOT ON AND HOPE TO SEE IT CONTINUE TO GROW IVE LOOKED AT USING ONE IN A BUILD BUT AT THE TIME THE COST WAS PROHIBITIVE
Love these kinds of videos.
I've been following your journey with these engines for a good while now and I think that you are spot on.
These engines have massive potential.
Any chance of you sending one over to the UK for me to start playing with? 😉
Awsome info thanks for sharing
I'm considering selling my 1UZ and just keeping my SBC, but seeing all the barriers that kept my interest at bay aren't there, it now makes me want a 4200. It may be a while before I can afford a project to put it in, but I definitely do think this is the new 2JZ
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family!
Happy Thanksgiving!!
Great information as always Calvin.
I've always wondered about a 4200 in a Colorado/Canyon. Now I have my answer... sort of. Looks like it would be best to buy a "donor" SUV and work from there for the wiring, etc. It always bugged me that GM never put one in the pickup trucks. The 2800 and 3500 - although similar, just never excited me.
The part about the tensile strength tests is particularly interesting as a mech engineering student. This is exactly one of the things I've been learning at college right now.
About aftermarket support, someone has to go first, right? We need to create alternatives.
Ford performance made an aftermarket coyote block of iron to do 3k horsepower but people haven't used it yet they're doing 3k with the aluminum block and stronger sleeves. I think the 4200s should get longer sleeves to fix the problem with the pistons sticking out at the bottom or get a destroke crank and cement fill the block for 2k+ hp. I've seen 2jz Crack around 1300-1400hp without cement fill but with cement they do 2000-2500hp
People go billet block at that point.
@@Low760 cement fill is $100-300 billet $10-15k
Loving it Calvin keep it up
Great video, I didn't know! Subscribed. I want to go find a chevy with one of these engines now.
Been wanting to mess with one of these for ages. Hadn't dug as deep as you have obviously, but they always looked pretty impressive. I think the aftermarket will keep expanding. I don't think it will ever be as extensive as for the 2JZ, but it also doesn't need to be. Really a bummer GM didn't keep making these. With the I6 getting more popular again, I wonder if they will bring back an updated version.
Us 4.2 TB owners need someone to produce a true bolt on turbo kit.
You're leaving out a third measure known as "toughness"-- which is the inverse of "brittle". Materials can be very hard and increase their tensile strength, yet still be brittle and shatter easily. So there is a happy medium for the three. (hardness, toughness and tensile strength).
Dream build is a late 80s regal t-top with a 4200. I think someone already beat me to it
Agree psi of materials is similar, but is the wall thickness 2x?
"Or Wednesday, when they're finally over their hangover"
Solid comedy gold right there!
Bad ass keep it up and i might have to Atlas swap my sierra and sell my 5.3
I remember looking into building the ford 4.9 and the jeep 4.0, because, you know...inline 6 turbo reasons...and what always seemed to come up was that the stroke was too long. Not to mention that cylinder head tech in those engines even with wildly altered one-off builds was poor at best. So, biggest question I have is: what transmissions bolt up to this thing? Im guessing it comes with a 4L60, can you get away with a 4L80, or a T56? Or, it would be tantalizing to use an adapter for a Nissan CD009 to LS if the basic idea is that whatever bolts to an LS will bolt to these. Glad you mentioned the rear sump aftearket pans, because I would love to try one of these as a drift car engine. Hopefully they have better oil priority than a LS.
You should do a buyers guide for someone looking to pick one of these engines up. Is it best to start with a donor vehicle, or is the bare engine enough? If I get an engine should I grab a wiring harness and computer also? What ever you think is most important for someone looking to get started playing with one of these engines.
You would make a great shop teacher.
Displacement wise, it's an American Barra. I often see American inline sixes as the most underrated engines from that country. America's forgotten engine I'd say.
Great video. Plz put one in a 57 chev.
There are quite a few more companies supporting this platform than those listed. At least 6 more.
imo, GM abandoned this platform too soon. I'd rather have an i-6 than a v6
Inline is superior to V series engines.
It would have been interesting if you had the Ozzy Barra engine in your country to test as we think thats
the down under version of the 2Jz and i live in New Zealand........
now to take one out my 08 trailblazer and swap it into my Miata 😂 😂.. man would that be rad and one hellava troll ... peace and love Cal . keep it rad stay safe , and build on my brethren .. l8z fam
You wont do it, that would be a cool swap with part of the head sticking out the hood though😂. Maybe not because the Aussie guys swapped a Barra into his and cam cover cleared the hood though….i vote swap and lets see lol
People saying "there's no aftermarket" -- are talking about bolt on turbo kits to really get power out of it. It can only become as legendary as the 2JZ if it can be built to 2000hp, like some of the wild 2JZ builds that are out there.
I have a 2011 countryman awd. the urge to rwd swap it is high but i wish i could keep it awd and use one of these some how.
So glad i bought one already
11:46 the aluminum has no fatigue limit.
The wifes 2008 TB LT has 227,000 miles on it and the only engine part(other than spark plugs) I have replaced is the VVT solenoid which is external and relatively easy to replace.
The only other non sacrificial part I've replaced on the car is the fuel tank vapor emissions unit(wrong name probably) which is just in front of the rear end and easy to replace.
I'm presently looking for a new vehicle for the wife but if I don't get her something with 290 HP, she is not going to be happy.
Being that the toyota JZ is getting scarce, the Atlas6 could be a good alternative. Mazda I6 turbo could be another alternative, maybe the Stellantis Hurricane I6 turbo, but they haven't worked out its bugs out yet. BMW has offerings, but they're expensive. Ford Barra is getting pricey too.
They have sent so many to America so yes.
Calvin, nice video to catch whilst smoking the turkey... My wife has a bottom girdle, too. Definitely increases stiffness,,,
Could you measure a K series? Would be very interested in that set of numbers.
I heard that iron gets harder as it ages especially if baked in an oven a few times.
Something to do with the crystalline structure improving the bonds between crystals
For aluminum to be at maximum hardness and strength a part needs to be grown from a single crystal. The fan blades in a jet are each all one crystal .
I've been big fan of 4200 couple years now, but it is hard to find at north europe. Can you send couple 2008-09 engine here? 😁 And ar-5 too.
I didn’t know someone started making the rear sump oil pans 👍
A 4200 swapped Silverado or Colorado would go hard
Now we need a v-cam kit Calvin!
Is 42004you still a thing? Would love to see more 4200 swaps into the 3.5/3.7 space
Will a 4.2 atlas fit in a square body s10 early 90s, or would it be better fit for the 5 cylinder?
Really wanting to build a typhoon type blaser and really don't want to use a 4.3. My other pick would be a 3800.
Thanks for any advice.
"At most times the engine will outlive the transmission behind it"
>GM
>Checks out
The Mercedies Cosworth
When driven like you stole it, hard with high RPM the timing chain craped out with more slap then a BDSM session, so some work with a hacksaw & file & you could just fit a duplex chain. Is there enough room to do the same to the 4200 ?????
Kiwi Rod
Driving4answers is an awesome channel, can u test LS rotating assembly?
Wow calvin there is someone making 700+ hp naturally asperated? Holy crap
They've been making 600+ NA for years. The past couple they figured out how to get it over 700. Comp Eliminator is a wild class.
Bs
That motor has a longer stroke than it's bore...if a solid bucket 2jz that 86mm bore and stroke with 720 cams revs to 7k rpm your saying u can Rev more with longer stroke and hydronic lifters ...even if had upgraded springs ud still float the valves....keep buying those motors..leave the 2jz stuff alone..2jz motors junk ..your right..
@@bryansenulis7242k24 has longer stroke then bore and followers. Coyotes also have followers. A roller cam can have very different lobe designs which don't limit ramp as much.
Not saying 2jz is a bad design, it's just how things are.
I mean look, popularity is almost always a byproduct of aftermarket support, and aftermarket support is catylized from availability and notoriety in many cases.
You've got one of the strongest designs to come from the 90's, compared to a newer design that can build on proven methods employed with past great engines.
As far as availability, I would imagine the 2JZ outproduced the 4200 on a worldwide scale and so it's time on this planet with decade's of growing aftermarket backing keeps the 2J a well known king, while I'm in no doubt that theirs alot that could be proven to be as good or better from this lesser supported (at present) Chevy.
The alloy might permanently deform sooner....While not being an ultimate failure/crack. The modulas of elasticity would correspond to stiffness up to plastic deformation if I recall correctly.
People often over look the packaging of the engine. The 4200 fits in vehicles that are suited for a V8 and makes for a really nice drag and drive project. I would bet these engines with a turbo produce good fuel economy at cruise speeds.
Well I have one already on a Trailblazer. I do want to add a bit more power nothing too crazy. Can't wait to start looking into it