Alex Pagulayan's Controversial Break Against Joshua Filler At The 2023 World Pool Championship
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- At the 2023 World Pool Championship, Marcel Eckardt warns Alex Pagulayan that his break isn't forceful enough and if he does it again he will give up the break. Then on Alex's second break the commentators state there's a massive difference, but I don't see or hear a difference. Do you?
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#lilchris #worldpoolchampionship #9ball
what are the break rules?
matchroompool.com/wp-content/uploads/World-Pool-Championship-Info-Sheet.pdf
"Players must use a forceful break"
@@LilChrisPoolPlayer
Ok,
they don’t appear to clearly define “forceful”
@@LilChrisPoolPlayer but what does it mean? They just left if open like that? No set requirements to consider a break forceful?
@@10efranco It is up to ref to decide what is firm enough. It is really strange rule.
There are no rules. Its based on the refs feelings. He wasnt feeling that break and made sure everybody knew
This is the same ref who called a foul on a player in another match for not saying “push” directly to his face.
I saw that and it was clearly bs. When you have to face the ref directly and say push, I believe that’s useless because it takes seconds to do that and every second counts in this game when there is a shot clock involved. On top of that it’s a useless rule because you can state your intention of a push out without having to look at anyone.
SuperCop. Walking in front of shots, hanging over shots 😂
@@anthonyvlogs01 Not bs. Some games you have to call the 9-ball or call shoots in each pockets depending the rules for that game. A rule is a rule no matter what time period. This is why the rules exist and he is following the rules even of you like it or not. That´s why he is the top referee in both snooker and pool. Might seem annoying yes, but that´s because he is so strict and doing his job better then the other referees. He knows what he is doing and calling. There is a reason why you sit there watching, complaining on the side and why he is refffing the match
As long as the ref acknowledges the push, who cares whether the face or something else.
That was “Wing ball John”.
On Alex's 1st brake he pocketed a ball and brought 3 balls to pass the head string. If they were playing under the "3-point rule" (which they're not), Alex would have had 4 points, meeting those breaking requirements and then some! But yeah, according to this ref, Alex is not braking "forcefully" lol... Okay.. not subjective at all.. Rules should be objective (in my humble opinion).
I agree. Definitely, I will not agree more 😊
Yea that ref is a real douche canoe
Good luck trying to build a rulebook with only objective rules.
Completely agree when I was watching that I thought it was the most ridiculous bs ever, ref needs to give his head a shake
@@bowlchamps37 besides this subjective break rule, name another subjective rule in pool.
It’s insane to me that a ref can tell you how you need to break 😂
I'd play a different cue sport if a ref ever called me out like that
I will just hand the ref my cue and ask him to demonstrate 😂😂😂
It is not insane if there are rules to the break that need to be followed but I do not really see the problem here with these breaks.
As a test experiment, I would like to see one minor tournament where if the player breaks and it comes up as a dry break, the opponent then gets ball in hand.
Nearly forgot the ref was also German..😅😅😅 they should install a break meter so as to determine what's not a forceful break..
That would be very german to measure the break speed/force
They did.
One thing I never understood about any of the break rules is: what if one cannot break harder? Such as, for example, back problems, impingement syndrome, torn sinew etc. Are physically handicapped players systematically banned from professional tournaments?
They say there are no dumb questions but....If one cannot meet some expected rules, cannot compete. As in any sport. If you should be able to lift, to begin with, at least 200kg in a strongmen competition and you cannot do it? OMG are you banned? Yes...or not included, or not qualifying or disqualified. But here, since it is quite impossible to measure, it usually comes to strict rules (like 3 balls in the kitchen). All other rules, including the firm break are established by the tournament director, stated and acknowledge by players. Hence no opposition. Any decent pool player, let alone a referee, can tell the difference between a firm break and a puffy break.
@@andreirau Apparently not, as this video clearly proves. If there were a speed camera, the difference between these two breaks is likely to be negligible at best, plus Alex's first of these two was legal by the 3 balls behind the kitchen rule given he made a ball, plus three crossed the head string. To rely on a person's subjective judgement doesn't appear to be the way to go about it. I'm not in general a fan of judgement calls when there already were/are rules such as the 3 balls behind the head string break rule you quoted.
A rule that would make sense to me would be to have the 3 balls behind the head string rule PLUS the referee has the right to overrule when the player does NOT achieve this result but clearly didn't use a soft break. Seen Francisco Bustamante absolutely hammer the break and have to turn over the table because his break didn't comply with the kitchen rule, and he made one or two balls on each of those breaks. That doesn't make sense. It's a way of merely adhering to the letter of the law, and completely miss its objective.
These break rules ruin the game , when they gonna accept Shane is just that good and stop tryna change the fucking breaks to hurt him , let’s be real that’s what it’s all about
@@teddyhaynes9876 Realistically speaking, even if that were anyone's intent, one cannot devise a rule or set of rules that is going to hurt any one particular player.
Pagulayan's second break was more forceful, but it was not a massive difference. This ref needs to be reprimanded for his comments to Pagulayan, they literally made no sense.
Hard to reprimand the ref when the speed meter said the break was not forceful enough.
@@JohnCarterRocks That's not what happened though
@@nakkadu .. Actually it is what happened.
@@JohnCarterRocks No it didn't...just saying something doesn't make it true. Do you have any evidence? I just watched the game...the ref just said "I consider your break wasn't hard enough" and there was no mention of a specific rule, and the commentators didn't say anything about a "ball speedometer". Do you have any evidence to back up what you're saying?
@@nakkadu .. The speed meter said the break was not forceful enough. I'm there. You're not.
Back to your couch.
I saw Fedor once say he liked the three balls past the headstring rule. I agree. It’s a solid way to judge if the break is compliant. Leads to no arguments.
There are still no arguments with this rule. It is the ref's decision, and you are not allowed to dispute it. 3 point rule is good but also leads to confusion when players make a ball on the break and then their opponent is coming to the table b/c it was considered illegal.
@@Duffyyy94 the ref will be subjective. Three point rule leads to no confusion. The arguments usually happen without a ref in money matches.
@@Duffyyy94 3 point rule is objective, this bs is subjective. That's the point
@@shortydancer no confusion? that's all there is with the 3 point rule. it's not confusing to the players, it is to the viewers, which is totally against what matchroom is trying to do.
@@doraemon402 all these stupid breaking rules werent there when the great players were growing the sport
But Joshua had the spinning 7 ball. The ref was mesmerized into a hypnotized state.
😂😂😂 i really want to believe that is true.
@@cuongphan779 Thanks for pointing out Alex's spinning 3 ball. Now you will obviously see how much longer Filler's 7 ball was spinning, so long it warped reality for you !
@@cuongphan779 The rules of quantum mechanics and imploding stars dictate the more spin, the more forceful the magnetic pull. Clearly you got sucked into a black hole of being WRONG.
Like the comparison Chris, my question is how much cash did the ref have riding on Filler? And did he really think he could phase the lion with that obvious sharking attempt?
If you all pay attention to the meter on the left he went 76 power on the first one and 77 on the next. Big difference.
Sarcasm?
@@King.of.dreamz Yes if the ref takes a dislike to you Hard luck
"Alex, I consider your shirt to be too blue. If you wear it again I will have to call a foul on you."
Ref clearly just hatin' here because Alex beat Filler the last time
bro this is the 1st match-up
@@anferneeleung694 I think he means when Alex beat Filler in DCC right before this tournament
That ref is beyond woeful, he refs the snooker too.. he’s absolutely useless
I actually asked Emily Frazier about this at the last US 9-ball Open I was in. I said why not use the 3 point rule as that would cause less controversy over a ref having the power to deem what's "forceful" and what isn't and she told me the 3 point rule is too complicated to have to explain to viewers by the commentators when watching online.
Emily means well, but she doesn't know shit about pool. Kinda sucks she's in charge but better than nothin i guess
@@fabbricatopersonareale yeah it's a tough line to walk where you're trying to get non pool fans to enjoy and view the sport while also needing to respect the game. All the decisions she makes (ball colors, pocket size, breaking rules, etc.) is to try and make it more enjoyable to the viewers but sometimes she goes too far and it starts to effect the game itself.
Thanks for the info, that's really interesting. Why do they think that it is easier to understand a rule that is based entirely on subjective judgement? If Marcel had actually penalized (not just warned) Alex for his break, a lot of Alex/Canadian fans would have been furious with him, especially since he is Joshua Filler's compatriot.
each ball in a pocket is a point and each ball across the headstring is a point and a break needs 3 points to be legitimate ....What exactly is the difficulty in understanding that???
You should have asked her “what viewers??”
You should probably worry about getting viewers *before* you worry about confusing them. HA.
It would be easy for them to measure the ball speed, a bit like what they do for a tennis serve. With a cue ball speed it would be easy to objectivly spot a " non forceful break". Else than for the breaking rule, looking at the cue ball speed would be interesting for spectators too.
Just have a rule that all balls have to move or 3 or 4 balls have to hit the cushions???
The ref's comment seemed to have thrown Alex off his game. I'd have been quite upset if Filler had run roughshod over Alex after that comment.
He won the match still let’s not get too upset 😂but I agree it was a ridiculous call by the ref
That ref shouldn't be allowed to referee another game. Alex didn't break any rules and Alex never fouled on the break. The ego of this referee is beyond reason.
@@mahbrum .. except the speed fell below the threshold to be a forceful break.
@@JohnCarterRocks And what is the ref using to measure speed? Nothing, except his own perception. It was a bs call.
@@shawnheenan9000 .... They were using a speed meter. Have any more easy questions?
That ref has been terrible, he should be sacked for the calls he's made in this tournament. In another match he fouled a player for not saying push directly to his face, but the player had clearly said it louder enough for everyone to hear, even the opponent questioned the decision. Now this, it was a legal break, I have never heard of a legal break not being forceful enough, rules state "if no balls are potted" either, depending on rule in effect, "3 balls must be driven to a rail" - which they did, or "3 balls past head string" - which they should, but a ball was potted so neither of these apply.
Question is, does the rule say you have to look at the ref or you just have to say it loud enough? If he have to make eyecontact with the ref for notification, then he has to do it. A rule is a rule. Sometimes you have to call the 9-ball in some games, depending on rules. If you don´t call it you lose the rack, even if you pocket the 9-ball. Annoying yes, but true
@@valuablememories5603 rule states "declare their intention to "push" to his opponent or to the referee." - this requirement was clearly met.
…… kind of reminds me of the APA break “rules” that are never enforced….. Alex only weighs 75 lbs how hard you think he can hit them?! 😂😂😂
I agree, but Alex used to have a massive break he can obviously hit them harder even though he’s only “75lbs” 😂
I imagine that situation with Jayson Shaw and his reaction. That will briliant and question fron Jayson”are you normal?”
Next to Efren Alex is the most likeable player on the planet which makes this even more bizarre! I hate all the break rules/regulations and they do NOTHING but make pool more and more UNwatchable! That mixed in with pros that have played the game for 50+ years commentating on matches and even they don't know which ball is which!! When someone has lived and breathed pool for 50 YEARS and they do not which ball is which or what constitutes a legal break nothing good will happen with pool moving forward with either of those.
This is why it can't be the judgment of the ref.
In my local league, it only requires 4 balls to the rail, not 4 points past the headstring like here (which he did it seems) but we do have a "break as hard as you can" requirement. Well, as hard as I can is pretty soft, since I have a shoulder issue and I cannot use a hard tip, I sometimes even forgo the break, what is the rule if neither player can satisfy the break requirement ??
Yea, that’s apa rules. I soft break all the time to play 1 in side, big difference from apa to pro rules tho. ;)
That "rule" needs to change. In UK pool either a ball needs to be potted off the break or at least two balls must pass the halfway mark on the table. They should have some objective way of determining whether the break is hard enough, leaving it to the refs "feelings" is actually ridiculous
Correct, it just invites controversy.
Usually they do have that rule. 2 balls have to go into headstring or something
No rules for break as there are no objective ways to benchmark a break 😅
@@FamousAnonymous888 yes there are objective ways I listed them in my original comment (that you're replying to)
Was Alex not allowed to question why the ref made that consideration of his break not being forceful enough? At least that would clarify on what basis he's making that judgement.
That's the problem when you leave a rule with so much subjectivity.
The speed meter is not subjective.
This isn't a rule. Rules are based on feelings.
@@bassinbilliards6279 .. This is a rule. You just don't know it.
This is the same ref that called a foul on svb that was not a foul.
He's known as a referee in a cue sport called Snooker which is popular in the UK
@@JoshuaPopp and not very good at his job.
I’m more of a snooker fan and am starting to watch a bit more pool now. I didn’t realise how confusing the rules are, even English pool has weird rules that I’d never heard before
They have to make it look difficult somehow, you know, because they can't play snooker :)
Also there's a few different sets of rules for English pool depending on the competition. Traditionally there's been World Rules & Blackball Rules. Now there's also International 8 Ball Rules (not the same as World Rules, of course)
Screw the break rule. Hot them however you want, just make sure the alternating break is the standard in matches.
There's not even a criteria on how to define a soft break there, all depends on how the ref sees it. Not a good rule
How many newton's of force constitute a "forceful" break?
It's a matter of keeping players accountable for not soft breaking on certain racks because they can see gaps and shifts in balls that they can favorably "control" the outcome of certain racks due to their playing of x# of games each day, week, month, and yes .... year!
This ref overused his ability on that judgement call. AWEFUL!!!!!
3 balls past the head string, and they have a break box? And he still wants to give a warning?
Not sure about the 9 ball game in the US but in the UK the rules say that at least one ball has to go into the top half of the table.
I think some have to hit a cushion as well.
He potted some balls off the break so that should be OK.
9 ball US game, it is a subjective call by the ref. No rules other than ref decides. Crazy!
If they want to determine if a break a forceful enough, why not install a force detector the same way they measure speed serve during a tennis match. That way we can have an objective rule not based on feelings.
If you watch the mosconi cup in 96-97 they used to show the break in mph on occasion and the USA team would break up to 10mph faster as some Europeans used snooker cues and not break cues.
Matchroom is killing pool by sterilizing player's personality and form. Pool is not like Snooker and shouldn't be treated the same. We need a different organizing body with less restrictive rules.
Players should be able to immediately challenge a ref’s subjective call where there is not a clear standard. It borders on undue interference of the match. 0:33
IMO if he have 3 balls (3 ball rule) you can't call it not forceful enough. And he had 4.
I think the forceful break rules came instead of the 3 ball rule, because many times people break hard enough but the balls clashes together and prevents them from going over to the kitchen.
The forceful break rule is used because that is what the players wanted. At least that’s what Karl Boyes said
i don’t know why thats an issue. but when svb had a controversial miss on the break they didn’t even call it a bad shot.
this can't easily be solved with a fast camera to record the break speed and put it specific to the rules but they decided not to do that
Difference was movement of 9 ball.
If 9 moves from it's position, it's forceful.
I thought that 4 object balls had to hit the rail for it to be a legal break
Force and momentum formulas should be applied here then HAHAHA such an opaque rule lol(Just cams with speed detection thing)
no rule should be left up to the referees judgement. pool is a pretty cut and dry game. there should never be grey areas. either let them break how they want, or make the 3 past the head string rule.
If you can't wake up the referee it's weak. It's interesting that a referee at this level so often suffer from brain freeze.
A very bad call by the ref. That was a legal break.
have them use a break speed radar, Emily
Referee at boxing "Your jabs not forceful"
The ref was out of line.
Great point. If they are going to judge the break by speed, they better bring radar- refs discretion is a recipe for disaster.
Marcel just likes to hear himself talk. He did the same thing to SVB last year on a break SVB crushed.
You can still hit the break forceful and get a bad spread and you can hit a rack light and get a lot of out of it.
maybe the rule makers should learn to write a proper rule
They should make a software to track the balls according to the 3 point system. If it doesn’t meet the requirement the software will indicate a foul.
He made a ball AND got two balls into the kitchen! Wtf?
If they are doing it for the spectators why not require a forceful break in snooker? See how that goes over with the players and fans. Pool is an evolving game they should break however they want as long as they strike the required number of balls to a rail, like four balls hitting a rail or whatever. Getting a certain number of balls past the head string or whatever is stupid and even with a hard break you might not do it.
I think the ref just want to ask Alex's what's app numbers..... Lmao
They got this totally cocked up. They got it wrong. Matchroom is doing big things for pool which evry pool fan loves and appreciates and Emily Fraser is doing a great job. No doubts there but I feel the yneed to bring three bal passing headsrting rule back to restore consistency cos this not fair. Ive seen way softer breaks than Alex's in tournaments . Even Karl Boyes immediately said, "I think the REF has woken up on the wrong side of the bed this morning." There is also this thing with US 9ball interpretation and European "snooker" mentality interpretation of 9 ball or American pool as our English Blackball friends say.
why does this rule exist? it's not like he played safe. the balls were everywhere. i understand a rule like 1 or 2 or 3 balls must hit the cushion just to stop a safety shot on the break but this wishy washy rules does not immediately seem to have any reason. can anyone enlighten me?
The judge can't consider shit unless he has a mph on the cue ball. The speed of the cue ball doesn't always determine how the balls leave the rack. But without the mph the judge's determination is not valid
Unless you are using a speed clock? there should be no reason for buddy to make that call!!
Adding subjectivity to a fairly simple game adds drama and possible conflict. This is not the NBA. Just put a speed radar or something similar and be done with it.
If it was a three-point rule, Filler's didn't even complete the requirements where as Pagulayan's did.
How is that break not forceful enough? To the average Joe like myself, i can't see any difference, compared to the latter breaks shown...
Proof once again that is almost impossible to shark these Filipino champions. They have seen it all, and petty refereeing is just another challenge for them to overcome.
A subjective rule of hitting hard or soft is silly, I think. Break box at 9 Ball on the spot is hard enough, I think. I am glad they are not applying 3 point rule :)
3 point rule actually is better i think. That way there is no argument if break is forceful or not.
Not really, 3 points rule depends on luck. So is not objective but subjective. If subjective then is subject to arguments. Just my opinion tho 😅
Ridiculous for the break to be a subjective rule based solely on the referees discretion. It HAS to be totally objective, like the 3 or 4 point rule used in Chinese pool. Matchroom is really putting together better and better tournaments but this rule was insane.
How they can tell how hard you hit them balls ???? Pagulayan had like 4 balls up in the breaking box
Refs should not have any judgemental calls. Pool is cut and dry. The 3 balls above the head string is so simple to understand I don't see how people could see it as confusing. I mean people get hockey. What's so hard about 3 balls must go above line if no ball is made
The player can break hard and still be illegal. While other can break soft and still 3 ball past the headstring.
I don’t believe he hit the break any harder. To me it looks like he just hit the 1 ball fuller. You can tell by the trajectory of the cue ball off the 1.
We could measure the speed and mandate a minimum speed for all breaks.
🤷♂️
I’m just throwing out an idea
all that REF HELP AND STILL LOST.....
Nothing wrong with his first break. The ref should be penalized from reffing for a month. His talk clearly was interference of Alex's game and unsportsmanlike.
I feel that in comparison to similar breaks, including Fillers! ... this was unneeded!
Looks to me like the ref was favorable to Filler. Was that not an illegal break with only 1 ball past the headstring? Either way Filler's break was way softer than Alex's.
Whether true or not a rule like that can give the impression of partiality by the referee.
Fillers break was way weaker than Alex's first. Alex even was good by the "3-point rule" and Filler was not. I don't get it
To break & get 3 balls up the the end your breaking from shows he has hit it with force. The break of Joshua’s only gets 1 ball past the middle pockets.
Ref’s get hit with the “im more important” disease than the players or the game. Great refs are rarely seen or heard, only when it required. This wasnt one of those times
The person who. breaks should break the way HE WANTS TO PLAY THAT GAME! 9 Ball is Rotation pool, shooting lowest to highest with legal combinations and continuous shooting until a missed shot. PERIOD! Alternate breaking is also a. ridiculous change that has been enacted. I would much rather watch (play) a player run multiple racks than have to stop shooting after each game. That is 9 ball. Also,, get rid of jump cues, racking the 9 on the spot to prevent packeting on the break, the 3 point break rule and extreme tight pockets. There are many games in the pocket table world each with their own rules, skill sets and formats. ie, One Pocket,,,if you pocket a ball on the break its is a do over?????
Imo instead of all the break rules, just no rules for breaking. If someone broke soft and get the wing ball to go in then is his/her skills that the person took effort in practicing and learning to mater it. Is a fair advantage because if you want to excel then you have to put in the effort as well. Why so controversial 😅
This ref is suffering from delusions of grandeur. He has shown this many times over the years. I'm glad I'm not good enough to ever have to suffer his incompetence.
yeah this is to be honest bullshit when they don't have percific definition of "an forceful break". It's the same in the final where i saw a couple of first racks FRS really not have enough power in the breakshot but still legal :/ well it's europe homeground what r u expected xD
Little harder a little fuller contact but sure not enough diff to not either call both too soft or both good. Imo both were more then hard enough
Damn! I Didn’t Know Billiards Reffs Can Be Worse As NBA Reffs 😤
Title is a bit off. It's not the break that is controversial, it's the ref's ruling...
In other sports they make sure umpires/referees are not of the same nationality of either player to avoid favoritism... not sure why they have failed to do that here... maybe a shortage of refs?
Unless a certain number of balls must be on the breaking end of the table, after the break, the ref should keep his mouth shut.
Marcel: Alex, you did not get the cue ball to fly off the table. I am giving you a warning that your break is not forceful. I will give you a foul next time if you are unable to comply 😂😂😂
If this organization stands by what it says, such as, they're new at this and are not sure of what they are doing, and will listen to the players for suggestions etc, if this is the case, this rule will no longer be in play at the next event, its ridiculous, imagine a boxing match, hey Mike I don't think your punches are forceful enough, wtf, at least start off by putting the 9 ball on the spot. But I think that if you want to have the very best rules, the most logical rules, fair to all, let Earl Strickland make the rules, and no this is not a ridiculous idea!
You can't bring down the lion!
Show them strength Alex
The live stream comments were all confused why Filler lost so Alex went on to win irregardless of the nonsense. That ref has been like a ‘super cop’ hanging over players, walking in front of shots..clearly asshurt he wasn’t a player.
A forceful break is subjective by the ref. It'll certainly cause controversy, but warnings should only be given when it's nearly clear and obvious when the player is using a softer break to control CB/layout.
Shane's soft break has more speed/energy than many females' most 'forceful' breaks. 'Forceful' really depends on what the player is capable of... again subjectively judged by the ref
If they are going to require a "forceful break" then they need to measure it. Period. Cant rely on the refs feelings. There was barely any difference in any of these breaks shown and in every case balls pocket and spread beautifully. Satisfied every conceivable requirement whether in place or not other than the refs feeling...doesn't make sense
To have a subjective rule proves how much Matchroom rule writers listen to the players complain.
So now break force is at the discretion of a biased ref?? That is truly sad
Using a template to rack and putting the 9 on the spot are already the dumbest things that pool has come up with. Now, they have some idiot telling them their break isn't "forceful" enough. Alex could probably give that clown ref the 7 out and play behind his back.
They use a template because, according to them, there are not enough referees who can actually properly rack balls.
They moved the 9 because it was too easy to make the wing ball and that was completely true.
The forcefulness of the break is such a subjective thing it cannot be part of the rules. That's why concepts like the 3 point rule exist and are an objective way to at least guarantee some force.
@@doraemon402 The players should rack the balls and the person that works harder to have a better break should be rewarded. Dummying down the break so that it removes skill is just like giving a participation trophy.
The rule needs changing you should be able to break off however you want to....
well when we used to play real 9-ball no such stupid rules were used.Break hard,break soft your choice lose with your head high...all the whinning and ridiculous rules changes hurt the sport more than it help.Back to basics rules from the 80s with 25 sec. clock on each shot...lets see whos ballsy enough to win.
@@mikescorpio13 agree.
@@mikescorpio13 agreed
he pocketed a ball and 3 crossed the headstring so I gotta call BS. Just because the 3 in the middle were a LITTLE clustered doesn't mean he didn;t hit it hard. Maybe they need to bring out the raidar gun lol.
The Ref was feeling himself a bit much. His break was not soft, it just wasn't a square hit. Bad call.
They should have a *referee pool tournament* just to tell them their *break* is not *firm enough*