There are three player factions in our One Page Rules community - One group, slightly larger than the others, uses the OPR settings. It's enough to build the battles around, and is 'good enough'. The second largest group plays using GW's settings, mostly 40K. The third group is creating their own settings, or at least sub-setting. My Notcromunda campaign falls into this group. Instead of one mega hive, there are six (formerly seven) smaller hive cities interconnected by roads, tunnels, and even canals both on the surface and underground. Our groups split from GW about midway through 9th edition 40K. It was definitely the rules, not the settings, that alienated the players.
I love the simple yet extremely flavorfulness of the great ruleset that is turnip28, played 40k for way too long left at the turn of 10th ed and will never go back. Love the 40k old lore and 5th/6th ed rules. But rules so simple it's grey like how the models start are the post 2018 games workshop way, way too smooth.
@@YeAuldGrump I had the exact same experience with OPR - I was trying to get back into 40k when 10e came out, as I have around 5000 points worth of Necrons that are collecting dust and I was getting the wargaming itch again. I was met with a collective "meh" from the group, even when I offered to 3D print proxies for everyone. When I suggested ORP as an alternative, people I didn't even know were interested in wargaming wanted to join the group!
I like to use OPR to play the 40k universe right before the great crusade. It makes sense why there are so many different alien species, it's because the emperor hasn't done genocide on most of them yet
Literally tried One Page Rules, Grimdark Firefight last night with Necromunda models. Easy to learn, Smooth, and so much FUN. Committed to this ruleset. Highly recommend.
Im a pretty casual fan of Lord of the Rings but the Middle Earth Strategy Wargame has such tight and easy to understand rules that I've fallen in love with it.
I can only agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said. Myself, I come from a time, when you got a recommendation in a RPG's fanzine to "just pick any miniature you like" to play that RPG with miniatures. The same fanzine suggested proxying miniatures for a DM: Use a robber to represent all kinds of human opponents, use a skeleton to represent all kinds of undead opponents and so on. For starters (with "starters" meaning "starting pretty much at the very beginning of fantasy miniature gaming"), that was enough. So, I learned a craft that's lost today: getting along with what you've got and using imagination. Today, some 1500 or so models later, I have sci fi soldiers, fantasy knights, cowboys, 15mm lawngnomes (I'm not kidding!) and what else. Having this collection I was like "screw it, I want one set of rules I can use to play with all those models and even pit models of different settings versus each other." Thus, I've written my own rules and released them for free. And what's even better: on Facebook I can see other people post photos showing how they are enjoying my rules - and this is the best gift I have ever gotten in my entire life :)
I'm a big fan of Kings of War. The lore itself is fine, but I chose to ignore it and think of something up myself when I started. And by golly, did my imagination get LIT ON FIRE. I've often looked at the rules and went, "This is good lore here, but what else can these rules represent?" Or more often, "these models look sweet! What force can I put them in that makes sense?" Or sometimes a modeling or kitbashing idea to try. For example: My magma men are mostly stormcast eternal minis with fire sculpted where their heads should be, while using the riftforged orcs list for stats. It's a blast.
Honestly...good point. And one that I have been thinking more and more about. I've been getting into things like Frostgrave, and looking forward to Deth Wizards, and the idea of just...making whatever miniatures I want or using random miniatures even outside of the lore feels pretty liberating. And after realizing I get a daunted and disinterested feeling every time I even GLANCE at the 40k rules, maybe something like One Page Rules is the better option. I do admit, at least a PART of my loyalty lies in the fact that I am an employee of and dedicated to my LGS. But both Warhammer and Magic have shown more and more issues while other games look so much more fresh and well designed....it does make me think. But the money still comes more from those two major juggernauts, so I feel so weirdly obligated. That is also probably the reason I simply...focus elsewhere and do a lot of hobby in my free time, though...
My favorite rules set is Infinity. To me it has the perfect granularity and really captures what I want in a game. It's a little too crunchy and time consuming right now though because I have a lot on my plate so I am currently looking at Blkout because it seems to have the same feel to the rules but at a much faster level. I'm waiting for one of the guys at my hobby shop to get his stuff for it so he can run a demo of it.
It's a very important message... well, about as 'important' as anything related to toys and games is gonna get. Once you've got a set of minis you like... then you should feel free to use them in whatever settings you like using whatever rules you prefer. Play '40K' with Ganesha's Mutants and Death Ray Guns, or play '40K' with THW's 5150, or play '40K' with OPR's GDF. You do not have to toe the company line and will probably be happier if you don't.
My very first wargaming group (1992) used Games Workshop’s Warhammer Fantasy rules with homemade paper shapes cut from custom, base-sized graph paper to represent models and units. At different points in my life, i was a competitive player in a few systems BUT i 100% link success back to those days of paper models. I think the key to it was that since we didn’t have model availability to hold us back we mostly all played a different faction like every week. For a brand new player it was a mind opening experience.
We are a couple of old blokes who still play W40k 8th edition. Plus house-rules to better reflect the fluff. You might even say it’s more like 2nd edition, since I end up being something of a GM for our tabletop stories.
Thanks Adam, I totally agree with your balanced perspective on Miniature Agnostic gaming. Currently using WH40K Space Marine and Necron miniatures retired to the GW Ledgends roster in OPR GF & GFF with no issues and also cross pollinated with Mantic Forge Fathers and Enforcers from their FireFight rules systems. Any ruleset that is not alternate unit / model activation is very 1980’s and I no longer enjoy playing those rule systems.
I didn't think OPR could work as well as it did. Me and my now playing buddy had so many different games we decided to try opr with primaris and mini marines but also dust 49 walkers and the mechanicus dune walker. So lot's of fun, so much fun ! When 10 40k wasn't much fun for me against alpha strikers... So rules are gold but a good player if invaluable ❤❤❤❤❤
one time i tired using GW minis in a D&D campaign and i LITERALLY DIED do NOT attempt posting this as a warning to anyone thinking about making this mistake
Never played Warhammer or 40K in my life, we just use the mini's to expand our HeroQuest settings and a Homebrew of StarQuest/Space Crusade. It is because of these games we got into the lore in the first place and off course, because Citadel Miniatures provided the original models for both games the GW models match the easthetic perfectly! Off course, playing a homebrew gives us the opportunity to use other brands of mini's as well (especially Dark Reaper Townsfolk for NPC's). I do love the lore and am a fan of the Horus Heresy novels and have optained old Codexes just for the stories. Not much of a fan of the recent White Dwarfs because the last ones I've gotten were more Golden Demon pictures than actual articles.
First, Thank You Uncle Adam for all you do with your videos. I truly enjoy them and find so much value in your information and production. Do you know of any war games that focus more on tank battles? I play guard in 40K because I love the tanks and honestly enjoy building/painting them but I’m looking for some indie games that have that vide. Solo play is a plus. I hope to see you at GenCon this year.
What a Tanker! by Too Fat Lardies is probably the best when it comes to pure tank on tank action (there's a fan made 40K expansion for it to boot). For a more sci-fi feel there's Ion Age by Alternative Armies. Needs the base (Patrol Angis) plus the vehicle expansion (Codename Taranis) but let's you field pure tanks, mechanised or airborne infantry et al. Only downside is it's 15mm, though GW scale vehicles work well as super heavies and 15mm tanks tend to cost a lot less than their 28mm counterparts.
Seconded for What a Tanker. Warlord is coming out with Achtung Panzer soon. TONKS is a simple tank game from the folks at 28 Magazine. And our own Uncle Atom has Tanks for the Apocalypse in Snarl Magazine.
Most of my friends play Infinity, which makes me want to pull my hair out, because it's WAAAAAY too crunchy for me. I've played some tough, crunchy games (80's FASA kid here) but all I have left in me anymore is stuff like Frostgrave. Thanks for the video!
My group has always been 40K fans, but we do not play much anymore because the current rules aren’t to our liking. We are thinking about trying Grimdark Future or possible 3rd edition. My current favorite rule set is Flames of War. We have been playing a lot of it lately and we enjoy that it is quick to learn, but also offers enough granularity to make you have to think tactically.
Interested in bringing on a apprentice? I love making rule sets... Done it for pretty much my entire life as a hobby. Been doing it for like 20+ years. Would like to publish something but honestly need a hand to pull myself up on
I know that you didn't want to touch it. But if you are facing not liking the "warhammer" world we live in, you can always try to play solo. There are great games and you can always play "any" game in Solo-Mode
I love that solo games allow you to play what you want instead of being beholden to a group with different interests. I don't think I'd be in the hobby without solo rules.
Honestly, I’m thinking about making a new solo play video for 2024. It’s been a long time since I last made one, it might be time. Thanks for watching!
I think it is also important to say that if you have only a few problems with a rules set it's OK to make House Rules, particularly if you don't care about tournament play. It's also OK to use rules from different rule sets as well. Of course there will be players who will call this heresy (not Horus Heresy). In the case of GW they change/update the rules any time they want. I feel GW makes updates for the Meta to keep tournament players happy (or at least busy trying to figure out new ways to game the system), and new editions just to make money. It doesn't seem that the rules are getting better with each edition, it's just change for profit. Each new edition requires a new set of books, errata, and FAQs. Seems like players are hamsters running on a wheel.
Nope, they’re from the game Steel Rift and I painted them like the US Army tanks in the cyberpunk movie The Creator from last year. Thanks for watching!
I left GW products for the time being due to the prices just getting to insane and the rules are constantly changing so you need a stack of papers to update the rules for the book you bought I’ve found smaller companies offer more product for a cheaper price games such as this Quar war $80 and you get rulers and enough models to play as with GW $80 gets you a box of 10 Phobos marines and you still need to buy the rule book
The way Warhammer / GW has gone with price increases and tossing out entire armies and shit has pushed me away from them, but I still have 1500 points of Ogor Mawtribes, so I am now looking into rulesets and worlds from other creators like yourself Adam and OPR and more. And I am finding plenty of options to mess around with!
Might be too large of a scope for a video, but since you have worked on different rulesets for games do you have any advice for those starting to design their own? Looking through the comments I'm not the only developing their own system.
Games never seem to strike a good balance between fast and complex enough to care about. I wish there was a system that acted like a DM or GM that could keep the game moving forward without requiring the use of an app. What would that even look like? I don't know. But I know I've never seen it before.
I use Marvel Crisis Protocol models in Kingdom Death! Completely inappropriate, but they're painted, and that means a lot to me. Wasn't it Uncanny X-Men #223 when Magneto, Captain America, Jean Grey and her daughter Black Widow punched off the Juggernaut's nuts with the awesome power of a lucky crit?
If vibe mattered over rules for me then I would not have a zealous force using sister of battle as my First Mate in Stargrave. Oh wait. With some imagination you can have both. ;)
Elegance is important in game design, easy to learn rules with minimal confusion. Rules should be intuitive while providing a decision space that does not always present optimal solutions, thus creating depth and a feeling of creativity on the players part. In fact game design can be an objective field, albeit one with lots of different audiences to design for. So I have to disagree that there is no objective reality with rules design.
Strongly agree. I am a Hobby Shop and I make a living selling and building a community and the biggest thing I've learned operating for 3 years is this. -New people curious about miniature war-gaming feel embarrassed to try since it is little toys, games like WW2 and Star Wars are good introductions since they are familiar and overall the star wars legion game and Bolt Action are extremely friendly for entry game systems. -Game's Workshop rules changes, updates, and out dating rule books has made more people quit the hobby, stop buying, stop participating, and give up than any other aspect of this industry. The way they focus on tournaments and the meta does push people away and it has hurt my business because of it. The biggest issue I have is products will essentially expire like an army rulebook sometimes within the same week it is released due to rule patches and updates and those hundreds of dollars in inventory and shelving of just 5 of those books becomes lost income and directly hurts my ability to order more inventory. -Agnostic game systems have given a lot of options for 3rd party miniature lines to be shelved, encouraging kitbashing and creativity which the artistic side of the hobby draws more consumable sales like paints, material, and conversation as we all brainstorm new ways to approach projects. Agnostic is more consumer friendly and you the consumer will benefit from more products and value from your money being involved with it. The only ones who don't are these global corporations that wouldn't know if one day you passed away, but your local community does, they know who you are, they know what you liked, and what your hobbies were. They value your time, money, and presence. Value your community, they are who cares about you, nameless giant corporations are not your friend.
@@ThortheGodly I really appreciate reaching out. I've done a lot of experiments with game design and modding other tabletop games for play by users and I feel there are a couple details that seem to make a pattern in it all. So let's start with less opinion based game mechanic choices first. Accessibility. This hobby is expensive and no matter with 3D printing or alternative options the building, painting, and passion behind peoples collection takes time and if they are passionate enough it'll cost money no matter what. So obviously making the game more universal is essential for new people trying it or playing it. First is scale and size of models. Bolt Action, Star Wars Legion, 40k (Normal humans) these I would argue are some of the biggest games and what do they have in common? Scale. You can take a soviet, a guardsmen lasgun, and stick it on a star wars legion base and it's playable piece in all 3 games. Kitbashing, and mixing models together is one of the core aspects of army creation and if the models are standardized to 28mm more model kits and players as a whole will have access to playing said game. Players allowed to be creative like a modding community did for Skyrim the video game will naturally create more longevity by allowing a community to cultivate their own content using your engine and platform. You won't make as much direct sales, but a creative passionate customer will make more long term sales than a short term tournament focused individual which may play for only maybe 2 years, lose enough battles to 'retire' and maybe pick up the game next edition 2 years later. Second I'd argue is rules. You're game can have layers don't be afraid to add graphs and charts for mechanics, but keep in mind all elements of the game should use at best basic math and should be easy to memorize or access quickly. If it's a little more difficult a key front and back page is essentially as complicated it should get. If players need to stop an already 3 hour game to sit down and read through a 400 page book to refer to a rule and then 20 minutes later do it again you're game is going to burn people out and push more outsiders away than invite in. A good warhammer rule with basic math is their Toughness to Strength. Every unit has a toughness, and every weapon has a Strength. If those numbers are tied than 50%, a 4+ on a D6 to succeed. If you are stronger than they are tough than a 3+, otherwise 5+ vise versa. You hear the number 14 strength, and 9 Toughness and you immediately know the answer to your roll. That allows a massive expansion of stat lines for units while keeping a easy engine for players to operate. A bad design for player accessibility is say the rest of the shooting process. Roll to Hit accounting for terrain conditions, Roll armor penetration for armor conditions, Roll Save now just in case target that was hit and penetrate just feels lucky and doesn't want to take that damage right now, and in some cases roll a feel no pain or what ever just in case they were really sure they didn't want to take that damage. You could roll 10 dice, get 5 Success, then 2 penetrations, then 1 failed save, but be ignored with that last feel no pain which ends with 5 minutes of dice rolling just to say you did nothing have a nice day. That is bad game design, tons of steps that have to be refer to, easily mixed up what order to do it in, and to the players perspective doesn't make sense why if a shot hits and a shot clears the armor wouldn't damage? It just feels like almost padding like a grinding in an MMO to make the game simulate gameplay without giving players much involvement or part in it outside of helping the engine process the attack effect. This is a lot already and I would almost say I probably could just make a video elaborating deeper on the subject at this point so maybe message me directly if you would like to talk more.
@@brighamgorzealionmaybe you should do a video then xD streamlining thought is really important, just being able to do quick mental math on what an ability is gonna do is really important even in video games where the computer can do the math for you. otherwise people stop taking informed decisions and just start wildly guessing.
@@oscaranderson5719 yes exactly, layers aren't the issue, but when it's the players job to resolve those layers using multiple steps just to turn the engine and process said data you're killing your game and in my case my girlfriends desire to try it.
I stopped suffering the rules as 40k 9th came out. I realised I'd bought more books than I'd played games in 8th, so it wasn't a worthwhile spend to get the next edition.
@@Mikey__R Totally agree. I am an Astra Militarum player. I was getting bored with only competitive gaming and when almost same day that AM Codex came out the announced new edition I said "I stop here"
Maybe I'm revealing my age here, but I started wargaming way back when there was no such thing as "dedicated miniatures". There were miniatures - and for most of us this was primarily Airfix plastic miniatures and UNPAINTED - and then there were rulebooks. The first rulebook I ever used was by Donald Featherstone "Wargaming Airborne Operations" and they were about as basic and "agnostic" as you could get. Your thoughts on this, and the trend towards these agnostic rules sets speak to me in a very nostalgic way, and I applaud them. All the best!
I think it’s in the 2nd edition 40K rule book that it states that “these rules are just a framework” and it goes on go to encourage players to modify, add or subtract rules to suit their own needs. Obviously this stems from from the days before 40K became a serious tournament game but as GW declare that only 3 to 4% of their customers ever attend a tournament then I think it’s still good advice for the casual players out there. As to using other miniatures with other rulesets. I often use the Middle Earth rule set with historical and even Age of Sigmar minis.
I feel like any boardgame that isnt comp made should just say "We love to see you modify anything you dont like or want to change" I hate how it like "you stick with rules that may be shoddy or like everyone explodes if you say "Potions should Heal for 60% to 100% on roll" cuz they got no creative bones in body."
Those books were also full of crazy notions like "build your own vehicle model from a shampoo bottle!", which thankfully made an impression on me that lasts to this day
"Obviously this stems from from the days before 40K became a serious tournament game" You're wrong about this though. It has absolutely nothing to do with tournaments or even competitive play. It's about having a baseline so that two strangers can play a game together without knowing anything about each other beforehand because they have a shared understanding of the rules by which the game is played. Even as far back as 2e, very few people were playing custom rules. Most people used it as-is because it meant your group didn't isolate itself from the wider community, and if you couldn't play with your friends you could go play with someone else using the same list.
@@Subject_Keter 'I feel like any boardgame that isnt comp made should just say "We love to see you modify anything you dont like or want to change"' They all already do that implicitly. But to actually have that happen, you need a consistent group who all play together and don't tend to play outside that group. Those groups inherently understand that they, in their insular gaming, can modify things however they want. Everyone else understands that they can't modify things the way they want, because a shared baseline is more important.
I've been developing my own tabletop wargame as a modification for 10th edition, and I gotta say that getting people to play something even *SLIGHTLY* different, even just as a playtest, it's absolutely wild. It's like pulling teeth, even if they hate the current rules!
@@thomgizziz that’s not a very kind or reassuring thing to say. He has friends and he wants to try something new. I’d wager given how emotionally charged your response to this was, that your not exactly drowning in friends
@@thomgizzizwhat crawled up your butt and died? If you are hanging with friends it's not a waste of time, and if you start testing with a smaller scale it's and hour or two. Really no big deal. If you never try anything you won't ever find anything better, no guarantees in life.
I gave up on 40K shortly after the release of 8th Edition in 2017. I'd been playing since the Rogue Trader era in the late 1980s; I wasn't willing to just give up my 5 completely painted armies, so I found ways to use them in other games. Grimdark Future, Stargrave, Rogue Stars, Xenos Rampant, and Space Weirdos all have helped breathe new life into my ridiculously large sci-fi miniatures collections.
My FLGS has a group that uses miniatures from Warmamachine, Warhammer 40k and fantasy/AoS, Infinity, plus a mix of minis from agnostic miniature copies to play Xenos Rampant by Osprey games.
I started just playing by myself. I have loved making my own terrain and battle table. I can play games that I'd never be able to find players for. I'm going through a Relicblade campaign rn and once that's done Im doing Deth Wizards. No schedules to work around. No sore losers. No begging people to play Skirmish games. Just fun in my basement.
Im too developing a post apocalyptic skirmisher with mostly PvE-features. You have a base on your paper, can gather resources, get new warriors via dice-throw after a mission, buy weapons, equipment and develop Power armour suits with parts you looted in game (also via random dice throw). Always wanted a fallout-esque game without burning my wallet on FO: Wasteland Warfare...
100% on every single point. More people need to watch this and really really listen. Also add the not so helpful line. "The multi-million dollar company doesn't need you to defend it's rules. They don't care about you."
At the start of the video, when you said "crunchy", like a simulation, slowing down play, I thought "ah, yes, Battletech", and when you said "streamlined", abstracted and without flavour, I thought "ah, yes, Battletech Alpha Strike". Battletech truly bookends the rules density scale.
Certainly crunchy at the base but you can at least just add what you want. We have been enjoying the Forced Withdrawal rule for cutting down the amount of time playing. Of course, your mileage might vary.
And if those two modes are too extreme for you, there is the DeatFromAboveWargaming mod called „Battletech: Override“ that is the absolute sweet spot for people who don‘t have that much time because of kids but don‘t want to play a game that is as far away from classic as Alpha Strike.
Rules can and do change from edition to edition. The vibe usually stays the same. If I'm going to paint up 100 minis for a wargame I'd better _LOVE_ the vibe.
I'd say with the proliferation of model agnostic games that allow players to create their own settings or use preexisting settings, finding the right rules is probably more important because that's what's going to keep players wanting to come back. You pick a game based on vibes, but the way it plays determines your enjoyment and therefore how long you're going to continue with it.
Right, but the point is that the vibes and the rules can be separate - you can love your Space Marines but use them in a different ruleset that you enjoy more than 40K, for example. Thanks for watching!
@@tabletopminions The problem with that idea becomes apparent when you plop your Nurgle Marines across the table from a Star Wars droid army. 2 people can like a rule set but end up with different vibes. Some people won't like that. Tyranids and Space Marines will always fit. Halo minis vs Stormtroopers? Maybe not.
@@suburbansurvival8239 On the other hand, it doesn't matter if the vibes are right if you don't enjoy the mechanics of the game. Space Marines vs Tyranids may be cool, but no one is going to play out that scenario if it's a slog to do. Vibes get people in the door, but mechanics are what keep them playing.
The flip side of that is that embracing other rules frees your hobby, don't enjoy certain rules sets but like the models paint them have fun and it's not wasted hobby time as you can use them in another. Whatever you want to paint can and will find a use, and often without maybe having to paint a whole massive force to fit a particular game
100%! I’m using Stargrave minis, Warhammer 40k, killteman and necromunda models for Stargrave, space station zero and a bunch of other mini agnostic games
That's something that always surprised me about people playing games in fictional settings- they say they hate what GW does to the system, but they don't want to play other games because they like GW minis or lore... like that's something chained together. Miniatures and rules are two different things. For me, as a historical wargamer - the historical conflicts are my vibes. I buy what minis I like. We have some rulesets on shelves for the same conflict. So we want to play napoleonics this week, and if we want something crunchy we will play Gods of War- Napoleon, if we want something fast and easy going we will use the same minis and play De Bellis Napoleonicis. Do whatever- don't let anybody dictate how to play. Buy minis you like, play games you enjoy.
In practice though, those are often chained together. If you want to play any game, you have to find or create other people who want to play it. If everyone else is happy enough with what GW does that their desire for improvement doesn't overcome their inertia, then you're not going to persuade them to try something else.
@@yurisei6732 That, and it's really in GW's commercial interest to strongly suggest that they are chained together. They sell both rules and miniatures, and people using other rules, or worse, getting funny ideas about rules and miniatures agnosticism isn't going to help their bottom line. :)
Something to remember about big game companies is that the bottom line isnt fun its money. GW, FF, etc make money on the miniatures, paints, etc. The rules are just a way for them to push their least sold miniatures back into the light. Also talkign about miniature agnostic games, I based a bunch of lego minifigs on 25mm bases. Used them for war gaming, worked perfectly. I dont use them anymore but it was cool. Also if you are in need you can buy lego sets and use them as terrain and get miniatures too.
OPR allowed me and a buddy to answer the question: Who would win if Battletech and 40K got in a fight, battlemechs vs imperial knights. For now it's imperial knights, but the inner sphere is not beaten yet!
Last week we played the old Battle Masters game using rules from GMT’s Commands and Colors at our FLGS. We had a blast! Our Minis Agnostic Game Night is always loads of fun. We just finished a short Frostgrave:GA arc, we’ve tried some home brew games from members and played a ton of indie games. Definitely “Be the change you want to see” is the driving force.
When it comes to rules systems and wargamers, I'm always shocked when people wax poetic for an older edition of 40k, but when I suggest that you can still play that edition that treat me like the one talking crazy.
A game I’m currently running in place of the new kill team (which is fine, but pretty complex and none of the things I’d personally look for in skirmish games) is fistful of lead, which is like a mini agnostic, timeline agnostic, litr use any period you want retro-style game. You basically get five guys, give them all keywords to reflect what *you* think they’d do on the tabletop, and roll some dice.
One Page Rules is amazing especially as a Warhammer lore fan if you want to focus on timely matches and priority on storytelling over complicated rules. It also allows much more freedom between the different rulesets. You can play fleets, armies and skirmishes with largely comparable rules, even within the same storyline
@@thomgizzizlook at this salty Stan trolling everyone who's engaging with the video. Go be happy and interact with folks who don't have issues with 40k rules.
Well some might say finding players is the most important, without that there is no game. Not everyone prioritizes rules, particularly as in something like 40k its changed at lot over the editions.
Endorse Ash's batreps. He has saved me wasting a whole host of cash on rules that are unlikely to hit my dopamine centre. Another aspect to note is that you, your environment and your priorities will change over time and thus the rulesets you use may also change. Don't forget scale and the benefits of being able to reuse scenery elements. I've had mates who had a permanent 8x4 board, great for vehicle combat, mass rank and flank and can be left up over night for a large weekend battles. In recent times I'm stuck with a 6x3 dining room table that needs to be used daily. Quick setup and reset is now more important than deep and crunchy. 3x3 skirmish is where I am at most of the time these days. However, you need to find rulesets that you can identify with, no different to finding a partner, a sport or an employer. And it's great that we are all different and value different things. There are some great potential rulesets in the US that are cost prohibitive to get in the UK. I know the issue is reciprocated with UK stuff being expensive in the US. I think you and Vince have done a great job in allowing us in the UK to get your rulesets printed for a small postage premium. So in line with we don't praise the systems we love, these are the rulesets I currently use and am fond of, in no particular order. An eclectic mix of eras based on 40 years of collecting miniatures and having the ability to wargame with whatever my guest(s) want to play. I've tried keeping at 28mm to be able to reuse tabletop scenery. 28mm Five Parsces from Home Five Leagues from the Borderland Mantic Deadzone John Lambshead One Hour Skirmish Neil Thomas One Hour Wargames 7TV The Pikemens Lament Fear and Faith Mutants and Death Ray Guns Other scales Mantic Kings of War Armada Void Admiral Have fun and thanks for another great thought provoking video.
Ash's battle reports for Frostgrave back in 2015 were the catalyst for my gaming group and I trying out the system. We've been hardcore fans ever since.
My current shoutout for mini-agnostic stuff is Warsurge. Great system for people who like to have a lot of control over their armies rules and just making really fun and unique stuff. It’s essentially 5-7th Ed 40k inspired mechanics with just pages upon pages of special rules covering everything from psychological effects, to elemental strengths/weaknesses, to spells, buffs/debuffs and more.
The way wargaming nerds talk about Warhammer 40k reminds me a *lot* of the way that RPG nerds talk about Dungeons & Dragons: far from the best, but certainly the biggest, and to paraphrase Stalin, popularity has a quality of its own.
I loved your last tip. I got fed up with how toxic and unfun 40k games was and stopped playing for a long time after 13 years. One year ago I remembered another miniature game that I used to play way back called malifaux. I introduced it to my friends and right now we have all stopped playing 40k and we are enjoying that new game for over a year.
I'm seeing a huge uptick in interest in Malifaux with my local game stores and it's so great to see! It's such a wonderful, fun, and sadistic little game! I'm glad you're having fun with it, too!
Man, I hope this trend makes it to my neck of the woods, I love Malifaux but no one around me plays anymore despite me trying haha. Would love to see an uptick of it!
Was playing 40k for some time, but was getting disappointed by the fact that I had to re-learn rule-changes each time when I'm playing, plus for most of time I was not allowed to use the minis that I wanted most - especially for Kill Team. Then I moved to OPR and suddenly I was able to bring my boys to the table for the first time. And I was able to play more games with it in a shorter period of time. Currently painting some dwarf broforce to do some zombie slaying survival with them based on the OPR.
I have never played 40K (well, not true, I MAY have played one or so games of the very First Rogue Trader edition). But that didn't stop me co-opting GW's fantasy AND scifi ranges and cobbling together my own magical space lich army (the Aotrs) and then using in in Stargrunt II and latter Maneouvre Group. The only games, in fact I think I have ever really played which is even vaguely tied to the rules for it is BattleTech (and even then with additions) and I play that specifically FOR their models and lore. BT aside, I tend to just use my own lore anyway, so for me, the consideration a set of rules gets (be it wargame or RPG system) is 100% contingent on the mechanics. I these days (as I don't get to play much nowadays, which is kind of a problem when my business is making wargames models...) I play either m own starship rules Accelerate and Attack Aeons of War; which was explictly designed as a LEGO set for people to use for their own stuff. (And to my chagrin I'm ten years down the line looking at releasing fleet lists for it (and a lore book), since nobody is really interested in LEGO set rules, apparently...) I use the aforementioned Manouvre Group otherwise (I wrote the free sci-fi expansion fr it myself); mostly at 144th scale rather than 28mm now (MG handles both the same, just the time of game changes from being mostly vehciles to morre infantry-focussed). I did, admittedly had some issue with MG sci-fi, because MG, being a WW2 to moderns set[1], is 100% scenario based and doesn't have PV or a unit construction system (the army list are carefully researched real-world ToC with some game stats at the end). So the best I was able to do was give out all the stats for my armies (and for sci-fi versions of moderns) and say "use this as a basis." [1] I would describe MG as a real-world tactics simulator. The basic rules aren't hard (though they are comprehensively-written), but they do demand a level of tactical thinking (or at least knowledge of real-world tactics) that isn't everyone's cup of tea. The best thing I can say about it is the authors regularly play with an ex-platoon commander who doesn't know the rules, but repeatedly trounches them!
I tried this by using my Warhammer fantasy models in King's of War. It felt like I was playing at playing Warhammer. I realise the fault is with me and my mental limits 😂
BattleDroids, or Original Battletech before clans... I loved the creation rules to make and battle test my builds. I was not huge into the lore, just loved the game mechanics and being able to create new big stompy robots and then seeing how they fared against my friends creations. I loved Car wars and Micro Armour. Star Fleet Battles was also a good time, even though its rules were redonkulus. Dream Pod 9 and its Mecha games were also fun for me. I just bought your DETH Wizards, and will be giving it a go most likely solo.. I am happy to see games looking at the solo players these days. I live way out in the boonies of Texas so I don't get much chance to game these days with others... so I am thankful for the solo rules many AGNOSTIC games provide.
I got tired of the GW rules cycle after the end of 7th to start of 8th Now I use a 40k inquisition warband, chaos cultists, and converted dark mechanicum models for Space Station Zero I use Necromunda models for Five Parsecs from Home I use Start Wars Legion models for Stargrave I use Gloomspite Gitz for Hobgoblin I use warcry and underworlds kits for Mordheim I like the rules to be the same from when I start a project to the time I finish it. I do works slowly though
I think the reason ppl stick with rules they don't like is the amount of effort it takes to learn most games. In the ' 60s, before D&D and Warhammer started commoditizing tabletop gaming, everyone played their own house rules games, bodged together from rules spread by word of mouth and zine style publishing. In that sense, rules don't matter at all. Just play whatever you like, be nice to your fellow players, and enjoy your hobby! 🤯
I've been playing miniature games since the 80's, so quite some time now, and in that time, I have just become jaded with how rules are. They swing wildly between oversimplified to too clunky, the happy medium between these two seems to be a rarity. So, I've set myself a goal to design a set of Fantasy Rank & Flank rules that is simple enough to learn, but retains depth. Currently I have all the core rules done just working on the units for the many fantasy races. After that, I have no idea how to make it available for people.
I definitely agree with this like 90%, but I also feel like the game FEEL really turns people away from using alternate rules for their favourite settings. Personally I do enjoy 10th edition 40K and honestly most of the games I’ve played, but I think you can’t really ignore the fact that a space marine won’t feel like a space marine in a game with no space marines, and also that some people are frustrated with the feel of stuff like that already within their own game where there isn’t even a better alternative
CodeBlade is one of the best mini agnostic games that’s really worth a look - shortlisted for best new miniatures rules award at the UKGE this year! The game attracts people for its rules from beyond the cyberpunk fanbase.
I get what you saying, rules are very important but vibe is also important. I don’t care if the rule set is the best ever and I have to play something that makes me feel icky. Play actual Yatzees or the Southern Confederacy in a game does sit well with me.
During covid i waa gonna get into warhammer. I bought a rule book. My son and i used peices from various risk games i have for army peices. I found we didnt like the rules of warhammer so i didnt get into it. But we made our own basic rules. Was fun
One aspect of certain people’s reluctance to try other, non big GW systems... The Friday night group at one of LGS is very much a competition focused crew. They view their weekly games as tournament prep and list testing opportunities. So these folks are heavily invested in 40k and/or AoS. Do they complain about the rules? All the time. Are they interested in trying other systems? Not at all. Part of the “problem” is that, for example, 40k is so complex and changes so often that I believe committed players just don’t want to, or just don’t have the mental resources available to absorb another system. I’ve certainly heard people say that keeping all the 40k interactions straight is tough enough without adding the confusion of assimilating another rule set.
my imp army is made with the only the best minis.... i can buy at the toy store. Little green army mans made in the USA! played with them when i was five and i play with them now! Jk...or.. am I...
Great video for some points. But I agree that you can bring change to your community, that change is not as easily made as you may think. I fell into Minis due to a community not because of the game. I fell into that particular game because of the community not because of the game. I learned to love the game because of the community not the game. So what I am getting at sometimes the community is more important than the game. Some thing to think about. When harping on things you may not like. Though I do not play 40k the hate for it here is real lol.
My tabletop war game of choice has had relatively stable rules sense is was released 40 years ago. Classic battletech rules can be crunchy, but can be streamlined. But the biggest thing I love about it is its stability.
For me playing the games is a way to immerse myself in the world. Feeling the strengths of various factions and units helps to make the world come to life. Also to play a game in the universe feels like being in it.
Ah, this just seems live an absolutely bizarre argument if you are not engaged with game systems that have proprietary intellectual property and "lore". For Historical players it's built into the DNA that rulesets will come and go. Like, why the hesitation about do "we make games or do we make rulesets"? You make games, full stop and that would only be a cause for pause in the fantasy/sci-fi world where integrated marketing of lore, artwork and models is a thing. Lets not forget that GW games ONLY exist as a vehicle to make you buy multiples of "space adventurer blister #1" and you can totally see this in the laserburn/rogue trader era marketing and in the people involved recollection. "Hey, that crew up the road is selling hundreds of "roman legionary advancing" blisters, why are we only selling one or two of our figures at a time to roleplayers?". The hokey backstory and the game itself is just a sales vehicle to get the guy who bought 3 orks to play DnD with to buy 150 of them and we do well to remember that.
Wooohooo learned a new word today : behoove=it is a duty or responsibility for someone to do something. Thanks! And yes we all should try out more (indie) games. Great advice as always.
There are three player factions in our One Page Rules community -
One group, slightly larger than the others, uses the OPR settings. It's enough to build the battles around, and is 'good enough'.
The second largest group plays using GW's settings, mostly 40K.
The third group is creating their own settings, or at least sub-setting. My Notcromunda campaign falls into this group. Instead of one mega hive, there are six (formerly seven) smaller hive cities interconnected by roads, tunnels, and even canals both on the surface and underground.
Our groups split from GW about midway through 9th edition 40K.
It was definitely the rules, not the settings, that alienated the players.
As an aside - it was a Lot easier to bring players onboard for OPR than it was for Mantic - much as I love Kings of War.
I love the simple yet extremely flavorfulness of the great ruleset that is turnip28, played 40k for way too long left at the turn of 10th ed and will never go back. Love the 40k old lore and 5th/6th ed rules. But rules so simple it's grey like how the models start are the post 2018 games workshop way, way too smooth.
My father, my close buddy, and myself use GW Lore and models but use the OPR rule set. Was the best decision we ever made as a group.
@@YeAuldGrump I had the exact same experience with OPR - I was trying to get back into 40k when 10e came out, as I have around 5000 points worth of Necrons that are collecting dust and I was getting the wargaming itch again. I was met with a collective "meh" from the group, even when I offered to 3D print proxies for everyone. When I suggested ORP as an alternative, people I didn't even know were interested in wargaming wanted to join the group!
I like to use OPR to play the 40k universe right before the great crusade. It makes sense why there are so many different alien species, it's because the emperor hasn't done genocide on most of them yet
Literally tried One Page Rules, Grimdark Firefight last night with Necromunda models. Easy to learn, Smooth, and so much FUN. Committed to this ruleset. Highly recommend.
OPR's warband builder, Army Forge, is fantastic as well! Hope you give that a try.
Im a pretty casual fan of Lord of the Rings but the Middle Earth Strategy Wargame has such tight and easy to understand rules that I've fallen in love with it.
I can only agree wholeheartedly with everything you've said.
Myself, I come from a time, when you got a recommendation in a RPG's fanzine to "just pick any miniature you like" to play that RPG with miniatures.
The same fanzine suggested proxying miniatures for a DM: Use a robber to represent all kinds of human opponents, use a skeleton to represent all kinds of undead opponents and so on. For starters (with "starters" meaning "starting pretty much at the very beginning of fantasy miniature gaming"), that was enough.
So, I learned a craft that's lost today: getting along with what you've got and using imagination.
Today, some 1500 or so models later, I have sci fi soldiers, fantasy knights, cowboys, 15mm lawngnomes (I'm not kidding!) and what else.
Having this collection I was like "screw it, I want one set of rules I can use to play with all those models and even pit models of different settings versus each other."
Thus, I've written my own rules and released them for free.
And what's even better: on Facebook I can see other people post photos showing how they are enjoying my rules - and this is the best gift I have ever gotten in my entire life :)
I'm a big fan of Kings of War. The lore itself is fine, but I chose to ignore it and think of something up myself when I started.
And by golly, did my imagination get LIT ON FIRE. I've often looked at the rules and went, "This is good lore here, but what else can these rules represent?" Or more often, "these models look sweet! What force can I put them in that makes sense?" Or sometimes a modeling or kitbashing idea to try.
For example:
My magma men are mostly stormcast eternal minis with fire sculpted where their heads should be, while using the riftforged orcs list for stats.
It's a blast.
Rules in fantasy games are like potions: they're confusing to make, they have strange effects, and players argue over who gets the last one.
Honestly...good point. And one that I have been thinking more and more about. I've been getting into things like Frostgrave, and looking forward to Deth Wizards, and the idea of just...making whatever miniatures I want or using random miniatures even outside of the lore feels pretty liberating. And after realizing I get a daunted and disinterested feeling every time I even GLANCE at the 40k rules, maybe something like One Page Rules is the better option.
I do admit, at least a PART of my loyalty lies in the fact that I am an employee of and dedicated to my LGS. But both Warhammer and Magic have shown more and more issues while other games look so much more fresh and well designed....it does make me think. But the money still comes more from those two major juggernauts, so I feel so weirdly obligated. That is also probably the reason I simply...focus elsewhere and do a lot of hobby in my free time, though...
My favorite rules set is Infinity. To me it has the perfect granularity and really captures what I want in a game. It's a little too crunchy and time consuming right now though because I have a lot on my plate so I am currently looking at Blkout because it seems to have the same feel to the rules but at a much faster level. I'm waiting for one of the guys at my hobby shop to get his stuff for it so he can run a demo of it.
also, don't forget those editions of 40k you loved, for example, you already have on your shelf! I love 3rd edition and would rather play this :)
It's a very important message... well, about as 'important' as anything related to toys and games is gonna get.
Once you've got a set of minis you like... then you should feel free to use them in whatever settings you like using whatever rules you prefer. Play '40K' with Ganesha's Mutants and Death Ray Guns, or play '40K' with THW's 5150, or play '40K' with OPR's GDF. You do not have to toe the company line and will probably be happier if you don't.
My very first wargaming group (1992) used Games Workshop’s Warhammer Fantasy rules with homemade paper shapes cut from custom, base-sized graph paper to represent models and units.
At different points in my life, i was a competitive player in a few systems BUT i 100% link success back to those days of paper models.
I think the key to it was that since we didn’t have model availability to hold us back we mostly all played a different faction like every week.
For a brand new player it was a mind opening experience.
You tell me what I already know. But it's just nice to listen to your ramblings :)
Really liking your robot design and colours T shirt.
We are a couple of old blokes who still play W40k 8th edition. Plus house-rules to better reflect the fluff. You might even say it’s more like 2nd edition, since I end up being something of a GM for our tabletop stories.
My current favorite system by far is Kill team. Took over my interest in big army 40k
Thanks Adam, I totally agree with your balanced perspective on Miniature Agnostic gaming. Currently using WH40K Space Marine and Necron miniatures retired to the GW Ledgends roster in OPR GF & GFF with no issues and also cross pollinated with Mantic Forge Fathers and Enforcers from their FireFight rules systems. Any ruleset that is not alternate unit / model activation is very 1980’s and I no longer enjoy playing those rule systems.
I didn't think OPR could work as well as it did. Me and my now playing buddy had so many different games we decided to try opr with primaris and mini marines but also dust 49 walkers and the mechanicus dune walker.
So lot's of fun, so much fun !
When 10 40k wasn't much fun for me against alpha strikers...
So rules are gold but a good player if invaluable ❤❤❤❤❤
one time i tired using GW minis in a D&D campaign and i LITERALLY DIED
do NOT attempt
posting this as a warning to anyone thinking about making this mistake
The only games I play for the ”vibes” are historical ones.
Never played Warhammer or 40K in my life, we just use the mini's to expand our HeroQuest settings and a Homebrew of StarQuest/Space Crusade.
It is because of these games we got into the lore in the first place and off course, because Citadel Miniatures provided the original models for both games the GW models match the easthetic perfectly! Off course, playing a homebrew gives us the opportunity to use other brands of mini's as well (especially Dark Reaper Townsfolk for NPC's).
I do love the lore and am a fan of the Horus Heresy novels and have optained old Codexes just for the stories. Not much of a fan of the recent White Dwarfs because the last ones I've gotten were more Golden Demon pictures than actual articles.
First, Thank You Uncle Adam for all you do with your videos. I truly enjoy them and find so much value in your information and production.
Do you know of any war games that focus more on tank battles? I play guard in 40K because I love the tanks and honestly enjoy building/painting them but I’m looking for some indie games that have that vide. Solo play is a plus.
I hope to see you at GenCon this year.
What a Tanker! by Too Fat Lardies is probably the best when it comes to pure tank on tank action (there's a fan made 40K expansion for it to boot). For a more sci-fi feel there's Ion Age by Alternative Armies. Needs the base (Patrol Angis) plus the vehicle expansion (Codename Taranis) but let's you field pure tanks, mechanised or airborne infantry et al. Only downside is it's 15mm, though GW scale vehicles work well as super heavies and 15mm tanks tend to cost a lot less than their 28mm counterparts.
Seconded for What a Tanker.
Warlord is coming out with Achtung Panzer soon.
TONKS is a simple tank game from the folks at 28 Magazine.
And our own Uncle Atom has Tanks for the Apocalypse in Snarl Magazine.
Be the change you want to see absolutely!
Best rules systems imo: -
Warmachine Mk2 and Mk3
X-Wing
40k Horus Heresey (essentially 3rd throught 7th editions of 40k)
Rangers of Shadowdeep
Most of my friends play Infinity, which makes me want to pull my hair out, because it's WAAAAAY too crunchy for me. I've played some tough, crunchy games (80's FASA kid here) but all I have left in me anymore is stuff like Frostgrave. Thanks for the video!
40k has great rules, that's why there have to be massive overhauls twice a year
Problem is that GW doesn’t see each edition on their own merits, and instead just craps out a new one instead of fixing what they have
@@anexistanthuman2435they recycle rules constantly and leave in rules that are terrible on purpose so it needs an update
GW knows their models and stuff is a one time thing. So they throw the rule books for this and that. Infinite profit.
My group has always been 40K fans, but we do not play much anymore because the current rules aren’t to our liking. We are thinking about trying Grimdark Future or possible 3rd edition. My current favorite rule set is Flames of War. We have been playing a lot of it lately and we enjoy that it is quick to learn, but also offers enough granularity to make you have to think tactically.
Interested in bringing on a apprentice? I love making rule sets... Done it for pretty much my entire life as a hobby. Been doing it for like 20+ years. Would like to publish something but honestly need a hand to pull myself up on
Star Wars Armada.
I came for the Capital Star Wars ships.
I stayed for the rules.
I know that you didn't want to touch it. But if you are facing not liking the "warhammer" world we live in, you can always try to play solo. There are great games and you can always play "any" game in Solo-Mode
I love that solo games allow you to play what you want instead of being beholden to a group with different interests. I don't think I'd be in the hobby without solo rules.
Honestly, I’m thinking about making a new solo play video for 2024. It’s been a long time since I last made one, it might be time. Thanks for watching!
I think it is also important to say that if you have only a few problems with a rules set it's OK to make House Rules, particularly if you don't care about tournament play. It's also OK to use rules from different rule sets as well. Of course there will be players who will call this heresy (not Horus Heresy). In the case of GW they change/update the rules any time they want. I feel GW makes updates for the Meta to keep tournament players happy (or at least busy trying to figure out new ways to game the system), and new editions just to make money. It doesn't seem that the rules are getting better with each edition, it's just change for profit. Each new edition requires a new set of books, errata, and FAQs. Seems like players are hamsters running on a wheel.
I swear the Thumbnail Mechs are from the PlayStation game LAPD.
Nope, they’re from the game Steel Rift and I painted them like the US Army tanks in the cyberpunk movie The Creator from last year. Thanks for watching!
Can confirm tiny fireworks.
We need a community driven 2.5 edition
I left GW products for the time being due to the prices just getting to insane and the rules are constantly changing so you need a stack of papers to update the rules for the book you bought I’ve found smaller companies offer more product for a cheaper price games such as this Quar war $80 and you get rulers and enough models to play as with GW $80 gets you a box of 10 Phobos marines and you still need to buy the rule book
The way Warhammer / GW has gone with price increases and tossing out entire armies and shit has pushed me away from them, but I still have 1500 points of Ogor Mawtribes, so I am now looking into rulesets and worlds from other creators like yourself Adam and OPR and more. And I am finding plenty of options to mess around with!
Might be too large of a scope for a video, but since you have worked on different rulesets for games do you have any advice for those starting to design their own?
Looking through the comments I'm not the only developing their own system.
No fireworks 😢. But love the video - good for the hobby! Well done
Games never seem to strike a good balance between fast and complex enough to care about. I wish there was a system that acted like a DM or GM that could keep the game moving forward without requiring the use of an app. What would that even look like? I don't know. But I know I've never seen it before.
I use Marvel Crisis Protocol models in Kingdom Death! Completely inappropriate, but they're painted, and that means a lot to me. Wasn't it Uncanny X-Men #223 when Magneto, Captain America, Jean Grey and her daughter Black Widow punched off the Juggernaut's nuts with the awesome power of a lucky crit?
I think that this video kinda proves that it is the other way around.
Never judge the size of the problem by the size of the complaint. Some individuals are crybabies.
If vibe mattered over rules for me then I would not have a zealous force using sister of battle as my First Mate in Stargrave. Oh wait. With some imagination you can have both. ;)
I straight up bought space station zero because of the art, just saying. The rules are cool too, but that art was divine
Don't forget Xenos Rampant
I’ve not played it. Thanks for watching!
Warhammer is the best of being both great and horrible rules
I can't upvote this enough.
Elegance is important in game design, easy to learn rules with minimal confusion. Rules should be intuitive while providing a decision space that does not always present optimal solutions, thus creating depth and a feeling of creativity on the players part.
In fact game design can be an objective field, albeit one with lots of different audiences to design for.
So I have to disagree that there is no objective reality with rules design.
Btw, I love your channel, just adding to the discussion.
Strongly agree. I am a Hobby Shop and I make a living selling and building a community and the biggest thing I've learned operating for 3 years is this.
-New people curious about miniature war-gaming feel embarrassed to try since it is little toys, games like WW2 and Star Wars are good introductions since they are familiar and overall the star wars legion game and Bolt Action are extremely friendly for entry game systems.
-Game's Workshop rules changes, updates, and out dating rule books has made more people quit the hobby, stop buying, stop participating, and give up than any other aspect of this industry. The way they focus on tournaments and the meta does push people away and it has hurt my business because of it. The biggest issue I have is products will essentially expire like an army rulebook sometimes within the same week it is released due to rule patches and updates and those hundreds of dollars in inventory and shelving of just 5 of those books becomes lost income and directly hurts my ability to order more inventory.
-Agnostic game systems have given a lot of options for 3rd party miniature lines to be shelved, encouraging kitbashing and creativity which the artistic side of the hobby draws more consumable sales like paints, material, and conversation as we all brainstorm new ways to approach projects. Agnostic is more consumer friendly and you the consumer will benefit from more products and value from your money being involved with it. The only ones who don't are these global corporations that wouldn't know if one day you passed away, but your local community does, they know who you are, they know what you liked, and what your hobbies were. They value your time, money, and presence. Value your community, they are who cares about you, nameless giant corporations are not your friend.
Hi there. Making a new wargame over here. What can you tell me that would make my game palatable to add to your inventory as a hobby store owner?
@@ThortheGodly I really appreciate reaching out. I've done a lot of experiments with game design and modding other tabletop games for play by users and I feel there are a couple details that seem to make a pattern in it all.
So let's start with less opinion based game mechanic choices first. Accessibility. This hobby is expensive and no matter with 3D printing or alternative options the building, painting, and passion behind peoples collection takes time and if they are passionate enough it'll cost money no matter what. So obviously making the game more universal is essential for new people trying it or playing it. First is scale and size of models. Bolt Action, Star Wars Legion, 40k (Normal humans) these I would argue are some of the biggest games and what do they have in common? Scale. You can take a soviet, a guardsmen lasgun, and stick it on a star wars legion base and it's playable piece in all 3 games. Kitbashing, and mixing models together is one of the core aspects of army creation and if the models are standardized to 28mm more model kits and players as a whole will have access to playing said game. Players allowed to be creative like a modding community did for Skyrim the video game will naturally create more longevity by allowing a community to cultivate their own content using your engine and platform. You won't make as much direct sales, but a creative passionate customer will make more long term sales than a short term tournament focused individual which may play for only maybe 2 years, lose enough battles to 'retire' and maybe pick up the game next edition 2 years later.
Second I'd argue is rules. You're game can have layers don't be afraid to add graphs and charts for mechanics, but keep in mind all elements of the game should use at best basic math and should be easy to memorize or access quickly. If it's a little more difficult a key front and back page is essentially as complicated it should get. If players need to stop an already 3 hour game to sit down and read through a 400 page book to refer to a rule and then 20 minutes later do it again you're game is going to burn people out and push more outsiders away than invite in. A good warhammer rule with basic math is their Toughness to Strength. Every unit has a toughness, and every weapon has a Strength. If those numbers are tied than 50%, a 4+ on a D6 to succeed. If you are stronger than they are tough than a 3+, otherwise 5+ vise versa. You hear the number 14 strength, and 9 Toughness and you immediately know the answer to your roll. That allows a massive expansion of stat lines for units while keeping a easy engine for players to operate. A bad design for player accessibility is say the rest of the shooting process. Roll to Hit accounting for terrain conditions, Roll armor penetration for armor conditions, Roll Save now just in case target that was hit and penetrate just feels lucky and doesn't want to take that damage right now, and in some cases roll a feel no pain or what ever just in case they were really sure they didn't want to take that damage. You could roll 10 dice, get 5 Success, then 2 penetrations, then 1 failed save, but be ignored with that last feel no pain which ends with 5 minutes of dice rolling just to say you did nothing have a nice day. That is bad game design, tons of steps that have to be refer to, easily mixed up what order to do it in, and to the players perspective doesn't make sense why if a shot hits and a shot clears the armor wouldn't damage? It just feels like almost padding like a grinding in an MMO to make the game simulate gameplay without giving players much involvement or part in it outside of helping the engine process the attack effect.
This is a lot already and I would almost say I probably could just make a video elaborating deeper on the subject at this point so maybe message me directly if you would like to talk more.
@@brighamgorzealionmaybe you should do a video then xD
streamlining thought is really important, just being able to do quick mental math on what an ability is gonna do is really important even in video games where the computer can do the math for you. otherwise people stop taking informed decisions and just start wildly guessing.
@@oscaranderson5719 yes exactly, layers aren't the issue, but when it's the players job to resolve those layers using multiple steps just to turn the engine and process said data you're killing your game and in my case my girlfriends desire to try it.
Warhammer
Came for the minis.
Stayed for the lore.
Suffer the rules.
The story of us all.
You can always scape. Change the mind of your colleagues or if not, try solo!
I stopped suffering the rules as 40k 9th came out. I realised I'd bought more books than I'd played games in 8th, so it wasn't a worthwhile spend to get the next edition.
@@Mikey__R Totally agree. I am an Astra Militarum player. I was getting bored with only competitive gaming and when almost same day that AM Codex came out the announced new edition I said "I stop here"
THIS
Maybe I'm revealing my age here, but I started wargaming way back when there was no such thing as "dedicated miniatures". There were miniatures - and for most of us this was primarily Airfix plastic miniatures and UNPAINTED - and then there were rulebooks. The first rulebook I ever used was by Donald Featherstone "Wargaming Airborne Operations" and they were about as basic and "agnostic" as you could get. Your thoughts on this, and the trend towards these agnostic rules sets speak to me in a very nostalgic way, and I applaud them. All the best!
I had that (Wargaming Airborne Operations) as a kid... and it was a transformative text in my life.
I think it’s in the 2nd edition 40K rule book that it states that “these rules are just a framework” and it goes on go to encourage players to modify, add or subtract rules to suit their own needs. Obviously this stems from from the days before 40K became a serious tournament game but as GW declare that only 3 to 4% of their customers ever attend a tournament then I think it’s still good
advice for the casual players out there.
As to using other miniatures with other rulesets. I often use the Middle Earth rule set with historical and even Age of Sigmar minis.
I feel like any boardgame that isnt comp made should just say "We love to see you modify anything you dont like or want to change"
I hate how it like "you stick with rules that may be shoddy or like everyone explodes if you say "Potions should Heal for 60% to 100% on roll" cuz they got no creative bones in body."
Those books were also full of crazy notions like "build your own vehicle model from a shampoo bottle!", which thankfully made an impression on me that lasts to this day
"Obviously this stems from from the days before 40K became a serious tournament game"
You're wrong about this though. It has absolutely nothing to do with tournaments or even competitive play. It's about having a baseline so that two strangers can play a game together without knowing anything about each other beforehand because they have a shared understanding of the rules by which the game is played.
Even as far back as 2e, very few people were playing custom rules. Most people used it as-is because it meant your group didn't isolate itself from the wider community, and if you couldn't play with your friends you could go play with someone else using the same list.
@@Subject_Keter 'I feel like any boardgame that isnt comp made should just say "We love to see you modify anything you dont like or want to change"'
They all already do that implicitly. But to actually have that happen, you need a consistent group who all play together and don't tend to play outside that group.
Those groups inherently understand that they, in their insular gaming, can modify things however they want. Everyone else understands that they can't modify things the way they want, because a shared baseline is more important.
@@IVIaskerade Obviously, i just see too many mind slaves shackled to GW and dont try.
I've been developing my own tabletop wargame as a modification for 10th edition, and I gotta say that getting people to play something even *SLIGHTLY* different, even just as a playtest, it's absolutely wild. It's like pulling teeth, even if they hate the current rules!
Could you put a pdf up on a website or social media or smth? I’d be happy to play test an alt-40K and give feedback :D
I’d be game to try
@@thomgizziz that’s not a very kind or reassuring thing to say. He has friends and he wants to try something new. I’d wager given how emotionally charged your response to this was, that your not exactly drowning in friends
At least you tried to playtest, so you already have one over GW.
@@thomgizzizwhat crawled up your butt and died?
If you are hanging with friends it's not a waste of time, and if you start testing with a smaller scale it's and hour or two. Really no big deal. If you never try anything you won't ever find anything better, no guarantees in life.
I gave up on 40K shortly after the release of 8th Edition in 2017. I'd been playing since the Rogue Trader era in the late 1980s; I wasn't willing to just give up my 5 completely painted armies, so I found ways to use them in other games. Grimdark Future, Stargrave, Rogue Stars, Xenos Rampant, and Space Weirdos all have helped breathe new life into my ridiculously large sci-fi miniatures collections.
My FLGS has a group that uses miniatures from Warmamachine, Warhammer 40k and fantasy/AoS, Infinity, plus a mix of minis from agnostic miniature copies to play Xenos Rampant by Osprey games.
From Blazing Saddles, " harrumph!".
Brother Howard Johnson??? Please don't tell me the Arbites are near...
I bet that’s awesome, especially if they have a unifying color scheme or visual style for each army
I started just playing by myself. I have loved making my own terrain and battle table. I can play games that I'd never be able to find players for. I'm going through a Relicblade campaign rn and once that's done Im doing Deth Wizards. No schedules to work around. No sore losers. No begging people to play Skirmish games. Just fun in my basement.
Idk why but it so fun to set up the board, the rules and what not and play stuff out.
It like abit of Zen.
Im too developing a post apocalyptic skirmisher with mostly PvE-features. You have a base on your paper, can gather resources, get new warriors via dice-throw after a mission, buy weapons, equipment and develop Power armour suits with parts you looted in game (also via random dice throw).
Always wanted a fallout-esque game without burning my wallet on FO: Wasteland Warfare...
100% on every single point. More people need to watch this and really really listen. Also add the not so helpful line. "The multi-million dollar company doesn't need you to defend it's rules. They don't care about you."
Vibes get me to try a game and rules will get me to play it again
At the start of the video, when you said "crunchy", like a simulation, slowing down play, I thought "ah, yes, Battletech", and when you said "streamlined", abstracted and without flavour, I thought "ah, yes, Battletech Alpha Strike". Battletech truly bookends the rules density scale.
Certainly crunchy at the base but you can at least just add what you want. We have been enjoying the Forced Withdrawal rule for cutting down the amount of time playing. Of course, your mileage might vary.
If only they had one that was in the middle, but alas!
@@inplacesdeepthe battlemech manual
And if those two modes are too extreme for you, there is the DeatFromAboveWargaming mod called „Battletech: Override“ that is the absolute sweet spot for people who don‘t have that much time because of kids but don‘t want to play a game that is as far away from classic as Alpha Strike.
@@inplacesdeepSee Battletech:Override ruclips.net/video/rGfMcH0Jn4A/видео.htmlsi=usq7_DdhoQNm97Rf
Rules can and do change from edition to edition. The vibe usually stays the same. If I'm going to paint up 100 minis for a wargame I'd better _LOVE_ the vibe.
100% agreed.
I'm also just not bothering with a wargame or it's miniatures if it has a shitty or uninteresting vibe to it.
Vibe is king.
I'd say with the proliferation of model agnostic games that allow players to create their own settings or use preexisting settings, finding the right rules is probably more important because that's what's going to keep players wanting to come back. You pick a game based on vibes, but the way it plays determines your enjoyment and therefore how long you're going to continue with it.
Right, but the point is that the vibes and the rules can be separate - you can love your Space Marines but use them in a different ruleset that you enjoy more than 40K, for example. Thanks for watching!
@@tabletopminions The problem with that idea becomes apparent when you plop your Nurgle Marines across the table from a Star Wars droid army. 2 people can like a rule set but end up with different vibes. Some people won't like that. Tyranids and Space Marines will always fit. Halo minis vs Stormtroopers? Maybe not.
@@suburbansurvival8239 On the other hand, it doesn't matter if the vibes are right if you don't enjoy the mechanics of the game. Space Marines vs Tyranids may be cool, but no one is going to play out that scenario if it's a slog to do. Vibes get people in the door, but mechanics are what keep them playing.
The flip side of that is that embracing other rules frees your hobby, don't enjoy certain rules sets but like the models paint them have fun and it's not wasted hobby time as you can use them in another. Whatever you want to paint can and will find a use, and often without maybe having to paint a whole massive force to fit a particular game
100%! I’m using Stargrave minis, Warhammer 40k, killteman and necromunda models for Stargrave, space station zero and a bunch of other mini agnostic games
Exactly. Thanks for watching!
That's something that always surprised me about people playing games in fictional settings- they say they hate what GW does to the system, but they don't want to play other games because they like GW minis or lore... like that's something chained together. Miniatures and rules are two different things. For me, as a historical wargamer - the historical conflicts are my vibes. I buy what minis I like. We have some rulesets on shelves for the same conflict. So we want to play napoleonics this week, and if we want something crunchy we will play Gods of War- Napoleon, if we want something fast and easy going we will use the same minis and play De Bellis Napoleonicis. Do whatever- don't let anybody dictate how to play. Buy minis you like, play games you enjoy.
In practice though, those are often chained together. If you want to play any game, you have to find or create other people who want to play it. If everyone else is happy enough with what GW does that their desire for improvement doesn't overcome their inertia, then you're not going to persuade them to try something else.
@@yurisei6732 That, and it's really in GW's commercial interest to strongly suggest that they are chained together. They sell both rules and miniatures, and people using other rules, or worse, getting funny ideas about rules and miniatures agnosticism isn't going to help their bottom line. :)
Your content is so great for my mental health. Just friendly tabletop games talk. Love it
I’m glad to hear that - mental health is really important and something that I think is overlooked in this hobby. Thanks for watching!
Something to remember about big game companies is that the bottom line isnt fun its money. GW, FF, etc make money on the miniatures, paints, etc. The rules are just a way for them to push their least sold miniatures back into the light.
Also talkign about miniature agnostic games, I based a bunch of lego minifigs on 25mm bases. Used them for war gaming, worked perfectly. I dont use them anymore but it was cool. Also if you are in need you can buy lego sets and use them as terrain and get miniatures too.
OPR allowed me and a buddy to answer the question: Who would win if Battletech and 40K got in a fight, battlemechs vs imperial knights. For now it's imperial knights, but the inner sphere is not beaten yet!
Last week we played the old Battle Masters game using rules from GMT’s Commands and Colors at our FLGS. We had a blast! Our Minis Agnostic Game Night is always loads of fun. We just finished a short Frostgrave:GA arc, we’ve tried some home brew games from members and played a ton of indie games. Definitely “Be the change you want to see” is the driving force.
When it comes to rules systems and wargamers, I'm always shocked when people wax poetic for an older edition of 40k, but when I suggest that you can still play that edition that treat me like the one talking crazy.
The only real obstacle to me playing is not having anyone to play with, regardless of minis or rules.
A game I’m currently running in place of the new kill team (which is fine, but pretty complex and none of the things I’d personally look for in skirmish games) is fistful of lead, which is like a mini agnostic, timeline agnostic, litr use any period you want retro-style game. You basically get five guys, give them all keywords to reflect what *you* think they’d do on the tabletop, and roll some dice.
One Page Rules is amazing especially as a Warhammer lore fan if you want to focus on timely matches and priority on storytelling over complicated rules. It also allows much more freedom between the different rulesets. You can play fleets, armies and skirmishes with largely comparable rules, even within the same storyline
Sometimes i buy the miniatures because they are cool and don't care about the rules. (Crucible Guard in Warmachine)
Rules are most important thing, which is why I can't understand why 40k is so popular
Incumbency. It's a powerful force.
@@thomgizzizlook at this salty Stan trolling everyone who's engaging with the video. Go be happy and interact with folks who don't have issues with 40k rules.
Well some might say finding players is the most important, without that there is no game.
Not everyone prioritizes rules, particularly as in something like 40k its changed at lot over the editions.
sunk cost fallacy
I didn't grow up with 40K so its popularity is baffling to me. I really don't see the appeal on any level.
Endorse Ash's batreps. He has saved me wasting a whole host of cash on rules that are unlikely to hit my dopamine centre.
Another aspect to note is that you, your environment and your priorities will change over time and thus the rulesets you use may also change. Don't forget scale and the benefits of being able to reuse scenery elements. I've had mates who had a permanent 8x4 board, great for vehicle combat, mass rank and flank and can be left up over night for a large weekend battles. In recent times I'm stuck with a 6x3 dining room table that needs to be used daily. Quick setup and reset is now more important than deep and crunchy. 3x3 skirmish is where I am at most of the time these days.
However, you need to find rulesets that you can identify with, no different to finding a partner, a sport or an employer. And it's great that we are all different and value different things. There are some great potential rulesets in the US that are cost prohibitive to get in the UK. I know the issue is reciprocated with UK stuff being expensive in the US. I think you and Vince have done a great job in allowing us in the UK to get your rulesets printed for a small postage premium.
So in line with we don't praise the systems we love, these are the rulesets I currently use and am fond of, in no particular order. An eclectic mix of eras based on 40 years of collecting miniatures and having the ability to wargame with whatever my guest(s) want to play. I've tried keeping at 28mm to be able to reuse tabletop scenery.
28mm
Five Parsces from Home
Five Leagues from the Borderland
Mantic Deadzone
John Lambshead One Hour Skirmish
Neil Thomas One Hour Wargames
7TV
The Pikemens Lament
Fear and Faith
Mutants and Death Ray Guns
Other scales
Mantic Kings of War Armada
Void Admiral
Have fun and thanks for another great thought provoking video.
Ash's battle reports for Frostgrave back in 2015 were the catalyst for my gaming group and I trying out the system. We've been hardcore fans ever since.
My current shoutout for mini-agnostic stuff is Warsurge.
Great system for people who like to have a lot of control over their armies rules and just making really fun and unique stuff. It’s essentially 5-7th Ed 40k inspired mechanics with just pages upon pages of special rules covering everything from psychological effects, to elemental strengths/weaknesses, to spells, buffs/debuffs and more.
Looks awesome! I'm going to investigate further. Thanks!
The way wargaming nerds talk about Warhammer 40k reminds me a *lot* of the way that RPG nerds talk about Dungeons & Dragons: far from the best, but certainly the biggest, and to paraphrase Stalin, popularity has a quality of its own.
I loved your last tip. I got fed up with how toxic and unfun 40k games was and stopped playing for a long time after 13 years. One year ago I remembered another miniature game that I used to play way back called malifaux. I introduced it to my friends and right now we have all stopped playing 40k and we are enjoying that new game for over a year.
I'm seeing a huge uptick in interest in Malifaux with my local game stores and it's so great to see! It's such a wonderful, fun, and sadistic little game! I'm glad you're having fun with it, too!
@@vagabondprime1691 3rd edition made huge changes and is very beginner friendly. Right now in about a month we are going to make our first tournament!
Man, I hope this trend makes it to my neck of the woods, I love Malifaux but no one around me plays anymore despite me trying haha. Would love to see an uptick of it!
Was playing 40k for some time, but was getting disappointed by the fact that I had to re-learn rule-changes each time when I'm playing, plus for most of time I was not allowed to use the minis that I wanted most - especially for Kill Team. Then I moved to OPR and suddenly I was able to bring my boys to the table for the first time. And I was able to play more games with it in a shorter period of time.
Currently painting some dwarf broforce to do some zombie slaying survival with them based on the OPR.
Battletech became my game cuz the rules really work for me.
Just played Xenos Rampant with w40k minis, cool AF as we both had lot's of fun.
I have never played 40K (well, not true, I MAY have played one or so games of the very First Rogue Trader edition). But that didn't stop me co-opting GW's fantasy AND scifi ranges and cobbling together my own magical space lich army (the Aotrs) and then using in in Stargrunt II and latter Maneouvre Group.
The only games, in fact I think I have ever really played which is even vaguely tied to the rules for it is BattleTech (and even then with additions) and I play that specifically FOR their models and lore.
BT aside, I tend to just use my own lore anyway, so for me, the consideration a set of rules gets (be it wargame or RPG system) is 100% contingent on the mechanics. I these days (as I don't get to play much nowadays, which is kind of a problem when my business is making wargames models...) I play either m own starship rules Accelerate and Attack Aeons of War; which was explictly designed as a LEGO set for people to use for their own stuff. (And to my chagrin I'm ten years down the line looking at releasing fleet lists for it (and a lore book), since nobody is really interested in LEGO set rules, apparently...) I use the aforementioned Manouvre Group otherwise (I wrote the free sci-fi expansion fr it myself); mostly at 144th scale rather than 28mm now (MG handles both the same, just the time of game changes from being mostly vehciles to morre infantry-focussed).
I did, admittedly had some issue with MG sci-fi, because MG, being a WW2 to moderns set[1], is 100% scenario based and doesn't have PV or a unit construction system (the army list are carefully researched real-world ToC with some game stats at the end). So the best I was able to do was give out all the stats for my armies (and for sci-fi versions of moderns) and say "use this as a basis."
[1] I would describe MG as a real-world tactics simulator. The basic rules aren't hard (though they are comprehensively-written), but they do demand a level of tactical thinking (or at least knowledge of real-world tactics) that isn't everyone's cup of tea. The best thing I can say about it is the authors regularly play with an ex-platoon commander who doesn't know the rules, but repeatedly trounches them!
I tried this by using my Warhammer fantasy models in King's of War. It felt like I was playing at playing Warhammer. I realise the fault is with me and my mental limits 😂
BattleDroids, or Original Battletech before clans... I loved the creation rules to make and battle test my builds. I was not huge into the lore, just loved the game mechanics and being able to create new big stompy robots and then seeing how they fared against my friends creations. I loved Car wars and Micro Armour. Star Fleet Battles was also a good time, even though its rules were redonkulus. Dream Pod 9 and its Mecha games were also fun for me. I just bought your DETH Wizards, and will be giving it a go most likely solo.. I am happy to see games looking at the solo players these days. I live way out in the boonies of Texas so I don't get much chance to game these days with others... so I am thankful for the solo rules many AGNOSTIC games provide.
I got tired of the GW rules cycle after the end of 7th to start of 8th
Now I use a 40k inquisition warband, chaos cultists, and converted dark mechanicum models for Space Station Zero
I use Necromunda models for Five Parsecs from Home
I use Start Wars Legion models for Stargrave
I use Gloomspite Gitz for Hobgoblin
I use warcry and underworlds kits for Mordheim
I like the rules to be the same from when I start a project to the time I finish it. I do works slowly though
I think the reason ppl stick with rules they don't like is the amount of effort it takes to learn most games.
In the ' 60s, before D&D and Warhammer started commoditizing tabletop gaming, everyone played their own house rules games, bodged together from rules spread by word of mouth and zine style publishing. In that sense, rules don't matter at all. Just play whatever you like, be nice to your fellow players, and enjoy your hobby! 🤯
I've been playing miniature games since the 80's, so quite some time now, and in that time, I have just become jaded with how rules are. They swing wildly between oversimplified to too clunky, the happy medium between these two seems to be a rarity.
So, I've set myself a goal to design a set of Fantasy Rank & Flank rules that is simple enough to learn, but retains depth.
Currently I have all the core rules done just working on the units for the many fantasy races. After that, I have no idea how to make it available for people.
I feel like i'm branching out in my table top gaming, both rpgs and war games. I'm really enjoying DCC and Grimdark Firefight
I definitely agree with this like 90%, but I also feel like the game FEEL really turns people away from using alternate rules for their favourite settings. Personally I do enjoy 10th edition 40K and honestly most of the games I’ve played, but I think you can’t really ignore the fact that a space marine won’t feel like a space marine in a game with no space marines, and also that some people are frustrated with the feel of stuff like that already within their own game where there isn’t even a better alternative
CodeBlade is one of the best mini agnostic games that’s really worth a look - shortlisted for best new miniatures rules award at the UKGE this year! The game attracts people for its rules from beyond the cyberpunk fanbase.
The aggression you get when you suggest opr to a 40ker is insane.
I call it GW Stockholm syndrome
I get what you saying, rules are very important but vibe is also important. I don’t care if the rule set is the best ever and I have to play something that makes me feel icky. Play actual Yatzees or the Southern Confederacy in a game does sit well with me.
During covid i waa gonna get into warhammer. I bought a rule book. My son and i used peices from various risk games i have for army peices. I found we didnt like the rules of warhammer so i didnt get into it. But we made our own basic rules. Was fun
One aspect of certain people’s reluctance to try other, non big GW systems... The Friday night group at one of LGS is very much a competition focused crew. They view their weekly games as tournament prep and list testing opportunities. So these folks are heavily invested in 40k and/or AoS. Do they complain about the rules? All the time. Are they interested in trying other systems? Not at all. Part of the “problem” is that, for example, 40k is so complex and changes so often that I believe committed players just don’t want to, or just don’t have the mental resources available to absorb another system. I’ve certainly heard people say that keeping all the 40k interactions straight is tough enough without adding the confusion of assimilating another rule set.
Doesn’t sound like fun to me - sounds like work. Games should be fun. Thanks for watching!
Sounds eerily similar to the psychology of abusive relationships
my imp army is made with the only the best minis.... i can buy at the toy store. Little green army mans made in the USA! played with them when i was five and i play with them now! Jk...or.. am I...
Great video for some points. But I agree that you can bring change to your community, that change is not as easily made as you may think. I fell into Minis due to a community not because of the game. I fell into that particular game because of the community not because of the game. I learned to love the game because of the community not the game. So what I am getting at sometimes the community is more important than the game. Some thing to think about. When harping on things you may not like. Though I do not play 40k the hate for it here is real lol.
My tabletop war game of choice has had relatively stable rules sense is was released 40 years ago.
Classic battletech rules can be crunchy, but can be streamlined. But the biggest thing I love about it is its stability.
For me playing the games is a way to immerse myself in the world. Feeling the strengths of various factions and units helps to make the world come to life. Also to play a game in the universe feels like being in it.
Ah, this just seems live an absolutely bizarre argument if you are not engaged with game systems that have proprietary intellectual property and "lore". For Historical players it's built into the DNA that rulesets will come and go. Like, why the hesitation about do "we make games or do we make rulesets"? You make games, full stop and that would only be a cause for pause in the fantasy/sci-fi world where integrated marketing of lore, artwork and models is a thing. Lets not forget that GW games ONLY exist as a vehicle to make you buy multiples of "space adventurer blister #1" and you can totally see this in the laserburn/rogue trader era marketing and in the people involved recollection. "Hey, that crew up the road is selling hundreds of "roman legionary advancing" blisters, why are we only selling one or two of our figures at a time to roleplayers?". The hokey backstory and the game itself is just a sales vehicle to get the guy who bought 3 orks to play DnD with to buy 150 of them and we do well to remember that.
You’re not wrong - the historical gaming world doesn’t have this issue. Thanks for watching!
40k models, 40k setting, OPR rules is the way for me.
Wooohooo learned a new word today : behoove=it is a duty or responsibility for someone to do something. Thanks! And yes we all should try out more (indie) games. Great advice as always.
Yep I used to love GWs games but they became too "streamlined" and aimed at tournament players and lost all its flavour and narrative
Sadly, Lancer came to mind, and it has both too complex mech combat and too vague out of combat rules.