A Look At The Master's Timeline
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- The Master has returned in the latest series of Doctor Who and let's take a look at where he fits in the Timeline and how he could have survived his encounter with well... himself and herself last time we met him.
The Master has had a long history of prolonging his life and for half his appearances he was actually past his 12 regeneration limit.
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This Video is for educational purposes with commentary.
"Future Gladiator" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
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The Master is literally the "How many times do we have to teach you, old man" meme.
Him and the Daleks never learn. Seriously, the Daleks should avoid the doctor at all costs because at least the master can hold his own more consistently. Not that the Daleks are not imposing just big losers when it comes to time lords.
Doctor Who is more like a carpet really. There are parts you walk on and see normally. Other parts are under the furniture and we don't talk about those parts.
I so using this.
the same is true about hard pack dirt floors, but not rugs. You can trust rugs.
A rug shot my pa. 😒
What about 'under' the carpet where things are are swept? or inside the sofa where you find lost pens or £5 notes ?
@@Loverboy19691 You are describing a rug...preferably Persian. A carpet is tacked down around the edges to prevent exactly what you described. And a sofa is just a comfortable time capsule filled with wonders of the past.
There's something O says in spyfall part 2 which is like "it feels good to be doing this again" which could be a reference to missy's reform and her next incarnations rejection of it
Many seem to forget that part.
Also people fail to think that Missy acting somewhat decent for a few episodes is a fraction of a second in the life of a Timelord.
Missy might have been on that redemption track but she still wasn't a truly good reformed person yet.
People also forget that Missy got her drumming issue healed. I mean there was no confirmation, if O still hears it, but they are using drums for him way more than they did with Missy.
But being for real now - I don't care if there will be evil Masters after Missy. The only issue I have, is that Chibnail remaking what Moffat did with sloppy writing, makes my stomach turn. There was so much to expand upon, and until now it was only disappointing.
It’s more like a slow transformation over the course of 100-1000 years which is a lot for a timelord and even so undoing what was a massive character moment without explanation is a bad thing.
@@mjm3091 I thought the drumming was only there to make the Master unlock Gallifrey from the time war, so shouldn't the drums have ended after he did?
River: “Everybody knows that everybody dies.”
The Master: “But some of us refuse to stay dead.”
River: "Everybody knows that everybody dies."
Steven Moffat: "Nah, I'm just going to make all of Capaldi's companions immortal beings lol."
I think the most likely explanation for O's reversion back to pre-Missy malevolence is what he uncovered on Gallifrey. The Master was always insane, and Missy seemed to be trying to recover. Maybe the O-version was sane at first, but then got driven mad again by his discovery. Or maybe Missy's regeneration into him was just so traumatic due to the circumstances that he was "born" mad again. Either way, I suspect he's post-Missy. The Master has "died" so many times and always managed to come back. And we never really got an explanation for most of them. So why should this be any different? Just roll with it, I say.
Maybe what he discovered prompted him to regenerate? Like something so horrible that it caused a regeneration immediately.
@TheBobBrom Knowing how this show gets written... yeah, going to say that as well.
Well the way O is played, he seems more like Missy then any other incarnation. It's like his version is trying too hard to be evil (unlike Saxon who was madly evil). I mean did he actually kill anyone in Spyfall? If the tissue compressor kills then I stand corrected, otherwise he didn't kill anyone besides Gallifrey I guess.
TheBobBrom that may be why he is using it, so to remind him of how to be evil because he knows how to do that. I think he is post-missy
We only have Harold Saxon's word that it's permanent, and he already lied about his suicide once
One important detail you missed is that Missy can't remember regenerating into herself from her previous body. This only really makes sense if she directly follows Saxon because the whole reason she can't remember it is because it was directly caused by a future version of themself (Missy). If the Master had regenerated into Missy from a different incarnation, this wouldn't work. It basically comes down to the multi-Doctor special trope of Time Lords not being able to remember events that involve a future version of themselves, so the regeneration that led to Missy must have been caused by the Master. Plus, regeneration can pretty much reset a Time Lord's personality back to its base level so Missy's redemption could have been undone by that alone and if not then whatever the Master found on Gallifrey certainly could have done it.
Also, I believe she said she remembered waking up aboard a spaceship... just where the dying Saxxon master was dragging himself off to.
Fantastic Ninja Regeneration doesn’t work like that, honestly. It doesn’t completely transform the Time Lord or revert their character or anything like that. It’s a new face, a new personality and some new quirks, but the same person underneath. For the Doctor, every regeneration has been a reaction to or a development from his/her previous experiences in the prior regeneration. The same was true for the Master. That’s why O rankles so much, as his latest regeneration doesn’t make a lick of sense. There’s no reference or connection whatsoever to the past. Before, the Master always had a driving motivation, an endgame, but O? It’s just bog-standard evil world domination, with no particular reason other than “for the hell of it”. There’s no depth to his plans or his character. Even his reaction to the truth of the Time Lords was painfully basic.
Looks like someone likes to make excuses for Chibbers’ lack of imagination and respect for the work of other show runners.
Simm’s master gets the redemption arc started in end of time and as soon as we meet Missy she is desperately trying to be his friend, so either way the O “master” is a betrayal of the arc and/or a retcon for the sake of stuffing in a recurring villain that doesn’t have teeth on its face. The show is shit, they got desperate, even if Chibnall isn’t aware of fan backlash (come on) the bbc will have given him a checklist, on it was “bring back all the iconic villains, your ones are shit, don’t bring them back.”
@@them1ghtyalex total lazy writing. They could've brought in the Rani or Monk or created a new evil Timelord for the Doctor to face but nooooooo "let's destroy Gallifrey again and bring on a new Master" wack
O cannot be post Missy as it completely undermines The Master's progression as a character. There's plenty of ways to explain Missy waking up on a spaceship, and not remembering regenerating.
We also have the fact that Missy comments about knowing the Doctor when he was a girl. In her interaction with Clara she said that the Doctor once stole the moon and the president's wife, that he was once a young girl, and that there were "Cloister wars", but that one of those was a lie. It would be interesting, since almost exclusively people think that the Doctor was never a little girl, if the one truth of those was that the Master became "O" before becoming Missy.
The Master and Reverse Flash never actually die. They're both cheating death in some bizarre way
Ecoworker97 amen, for that
All great villains have a way to cheat death and add the Joker to that list. The only time he actually died was when he was played by Jack Nicholson and only because he made it a condition of playing the role.
4:43 In Logopolis, it's explained that the Master was able to possess another body due to retaining lingering power from The Keepership.
My "fan-fiction" idea for The Master was that he spent a lot of his original regenerations in a "perpendicular" dimension (using a "Continua Device" as in various Heinlein novels), so his lifespan is potentially longer than The Doctor's, especially as The Doctor is more likely to "die" and be forced into a regeneration sooner in the act of saving others. I can't picture The Master being *so* careless that he would use them up so much faster than The Doctor. Eventually he would be forced out of the perpendicular dimension back to his original one. (The idea being that the perpendicular dimension's time does not progress along with his home dimension).
Another thing I've thought is that The Master first left Gallifrey he was much more like The Doctor, but turned evil as time went on. On occasions where The Doctor has spent extended times travelling alone, his personality tends to turn darker. The Master essentially is what The Doctor might have become had he not traveled with companions (with Chang Lee in the TV movie being the closest thing to a Master companion).
Never fleshed it out very far, I had much more thought out with the Teagan/Nyssa/Adric love triange (a "type 7" TriangRelation as per TVTropes, with Nyssa being "A")
I actually really dig this idea for the master
Listen to The Master stories at Big Finish. They fill a lot of gaps in for The Master
Big finish isn't canon to the show, showrunners only consider what they do to be canon. They tend to be self obsessed like that unfortunately.
@@thesoggypillow3057 Night of the Doctor
@@JRCSalter Doesnt count, it was made for the show
@@thesoggypillow3057 Exactly. But it specifically mentions Big Finish companions. Therefore, Big Finish is canon.
@@JRCSalter That's more of an Easter egg to big finish fans if you think about it, Moffat was ALL fan service, even to the detriment of the show. As far as the BBC is concerned, the books and all that other stuff has no impact on anything in the show, it would have to be each showrunners specific decision to make it canon.
Back in the 80s ( a bit before the age of The Internet as we know it ), Doctor Who fans would go to conventions and discuss whether the Meddling Monk was an early regeneration of The Master. This are so muddled now I don't think it would even bother to make that connection any more.
I imagine the sisterhood of Karn being allies of the Time Lords helped to remove the curse of sterilization as they are the descendants of the Pythia. The looms have been mentioned in the Doctor Who book (the book of war) and faction paradox that is canon to Doctor Who officially now. Also they are mentioned in the War in heaven book series, basically the Time Lords use them to create fully grown soldiers to fight in the Time War known as the War in Heaven. So because Gallifrey does not use them to reproduce or only to make soldiers when they are at war, it seems obvious to me that they would not be mentioned much.
Both the Anthony Ainley and Eric Roberts Masters was the Geoffrey Beeves Master in stolen bodies
Still different versions, since they're different bodies.
@@Cabolt44 same incarnation though as there was no regeneration.
Cabolt44 it was basically just Beevers wearing those bodies like skin suits
Some good points were made.
The Master is an expert at escaping death.
Note: the Master didn’t learn how to possess a body. He used the awesome (yet waning) powers from being the Keeper of Traken to possess Tremis’s body. The creature in the movie facilitated the next possession with less positive results sans the lack of cosmic power.
Not sure of the rationalization that O precedes Missy to explain his shift in personality. Regeneration alone causes a shift in personality, thus why each Doctor is different (some extremely- 4 was more alien, 6 was erratic, 7 was manipulative, etc.) Missy seemed like an evolution, but previous Master’s have shown moments of heroism. Please remember that Missy didn’t remember meeting her former self & started out very bad as well as had good/bad conflict within herself prior to regenerating. If Missy’s attempt to change to be Doctor like failed, he could believably revert your type. Maybe even want the Doctor to try being more Master like...
If he had shown a picture of Batman when he said "Master Bruce," I would have instantly subscribed
2:38
After seeing fugitive of the judoon, this had me thinking. What if; after a time lord uses all their regeneration, the council will like, reset them and give them a whole new cycle? I also thought maybe the timeless child was an immortal being the time lords were siphoning the regeneration energy from? It sounds stupid, I know but this is chris chubnall were talking about here tbf
The Soggy Pillow
I don’t think they were siphoning from “the timeless child” because according to the Doctor, their ability to regenerate came from years of exposure to the untempered schism/ time vortex. This seems to stand true because of River Song being conceived while in flight on the TARDIS. Just what I remember 🙂
@@erinwood4968 "everything they told you is a lie"
I guarantee the truth is that there are no Time Lords, that will be the big lie and why the Master happily destroyed Gallifrey when he found out. All the Time Lords in reality will be expressions of the universe wanting to experience itself (the Timeless Child), and a hard reset after 12 regenerations is necessary due to the limitations of a corporal body and going insane.
We'll also probably find out the Daleks are actually the good guys trying to prevent this massive pervertion of the time stream and save the rest of the universe, and they view the tragic costs of the war as worth it.
@@thomascrabtree orrr the timeless child is an expression of the universe being harvested for time energy by humans becoming timelords? River became a timelord just by being exposed to time eenergy and I suspect the whole race was born like that too
How accurate your words are after watching the finale
He mentions missing being evil (a reference to his Missy redemption). He also mentions Jodrell Bank, the radar thing that 4 fell off. So he must be a post Ainley Master.
You're awesome, I love your vids and I'm really glad I found your channel. Thank you for all your time and effort!
The thing is, O may not even be a new regeneration, because he said he just stole O's appearance. It could be any Master under there (within the constraints of what was mentioned). I agree that his demeanor is very Simm-esque, and having Missy regress back into that personality would be a little disappointing for those who wanted that redemption arc. Of course I don't want to think the Master is permanently dead with Missy but because it's Doctor Who they will always bring the Master back because he's so important as a long-running foe. Likely, Dhawan Master has to do with whatever timey-wimey plot we're getting into. But seeing as he was so upset about finding out everything was 'a lie', sort of implies that this is 'our' Master. But we'll see I guess!
As a 'posh WOG' (his words not mine), this regeneration of the Master is definitely the most dapper and dashing of the lot and I do hope we get the eye candy that is this version for many series to come 😜
If you want dapper and dashing try Delgado's Master. Sascha doesn't even hold a candle to him in both style and performance.
Its proven that this seasons master comes before Missy and here is why:
When Missy talked to Clara in 9x1 (The Magicans Appearance)
"CLARA: Since when do you care about the Doctor?
MISSY: Since always. Since the Cloister Wars. Since the night he stole the moon and the President's wife. Since he was a little girl. One of those was a lie. Can you guess which one?"
This could mean that the Master was the Boy playing with the Timeless Child and pushed her from the cliff.
And then in 9x12 (Hell Bent)
"DOCTOR: The last I heard, he stole the moon and the President's wife.
CLARA: Was she, er, Was she nice, the President's wife?
DOCTOR: Ah, well, that was a lie put about by the Shabogans. It was the President's daughter. I didn't steal the moon, I lost it."
This proves that Missy comes after this seasons Master.
So Missy already knew that the Masters was once a little Girl (Timeless Child) and the current Master just found it out in the last few episodes of this season.
That makes much more sense than having a complete 180 on Missy's (sort of) redemption.
XxMr1XxX Jodie’s Doctor is hardly little. And the Master didn’t seem more caring about Jodie’s Doctor. Also Missy doesn’t remember how or why she had regenerated because of the fact that Simm’s death was caused by his future incarnation
@@EditedAF987 I am not talking about the doctor being little I am talking about the timeless child (which was a girl) being little. The chances are very high that The Master is that woman who found her or the little boy who pushed her from the cliff before her first regeneration.
I wouldn't say that's definitive, remember one of those was a lie.
Then again, I suppose the Cloister Wars one was a lie.
Feel like I'm stuck in a time loop because I keep having to go back to understand it
You're doing a great job, but I think it was a little naive starting with only one line x)
The misteess wouldve been like a seperate character.
Also The drums...the drums are telling me to like John Simms master
If you added Big Finish complications and incarnations this video would be trebled in length! Brilliant as is. One might say.....Masterful
Great video! Lovely visualization of the timeline too. I'll pass this on to friends.
Ah, the mention of Marc Platt's looms at the end. Canon in Who is all in. As you know, canon is never undone so much as redone and continually considered. Even Lungbarrow itself established a method by which Gallifreyans might be bred as children outside of looms. Now... after The Timeless Children has aired, we have a very mythological bit of added Time Lord background. It appears to still not contradict looms entirely.
But yeah, O being between Saxon Master and Missy sounds right to me too.
I'm convinced O's Regeneration is between Saxon and Missy, When Saxon says "Then what? regeneration, into you?" Missy's response to that initially is a bit vague, sure she then says "Welcome to the sisterhood" kind of answering his question but she doesn't strait up say that she is next. O not only acts very much Like Saxon but the two of them have something that Missy does not, concern for Gallifrey and the Timelords. Saxon asks the Doctor about what happened to them and O goes as far as to destroy them, but Missy seems uninterested in their fate, almost as if she knows already what is to come. That may also imply that she had knowledge of the Timeless Child, but then again it has been the Master's delight to know something the Doctor doesn't and enjoying his ignorance.
Missy killed Saxon so that he would become her version of The Master.
Wouldnt that mean, she knew that she would eventually become kinder? Which means she knew she would have died
Tray Percy then again she said that he wouldn’t remember a lot from “the doctor falls” and only remembered missy because she threatened him
@@artypyrec4186 I'm sure the same time rules apply to The Master as The Doctor and if you recall in the 50'th there is a whole dialogue between Ten and Eleven about Ten's inability to recall even meeting Eleven. Eleven tells Clara that both the War Doctor and the Tenth Doctor wont remember saving Gallifrey, thus why they still feel bad about destroying it in the canon timeline. So The Saxon Master would eventually get amnesia about ever meeting or killing Missy.
Amazing video dude! Everything is so clear and understandable. Great work!
It must have been Ainley's incarnation that was executed. The cat's eyes image at the start of the film hinted at it ('Survival').
Darth Metallus those weren’t cat eyes, they were snake eyes caused by the Master’s merger with the death worm morphing. Roberts’ has those same eyes in the movie. Also Dust Breeding confirmed that the Master had lost the Ainley body before the movie and had reverted back to the Beevers incarnation as a result
According to the Big Finish audio drama's Geoffrey Beeves Master was resurrected by the Time Lord's given a new cycle of regenerations he quickly regenerates into Alex McQueen's Master making him the first War Master
Lee Johnstone actually Alex MacQueen isn’t a War Master because he didn’t partake in the time war. He was only working with the CIA to try and prevent the Time War. Also the second War Master boxset shows that the Derek Jacobi Master was around before the war had even been officially declared and was helping the Timelords prepare by delivering them resources
An interesting hypothesis of placing 'O' before 'Missy' and after 'Saxon'...
Katalyzt
this was masterfully done as are all your videos
I like to think that the “O” master is before the “missy” master, just because missy did change in the end
Brilliant video! Loving what Sasha Dhawan is doing with the Master.
This is a solid and dedicated video. I love it
The Master doesn’t have a Time “line” it’s full of twists and turns, loops, climes and dives all over the place.
Lawrence Haguewood. Kinda timey, wimey, wibbly,wobbly? Perhaps?
It’s more like a time wave or roller coaster then?
The Master has less a time line and more a quantium probability cloud.
Wow awesome job! That must have taken forever to research and piece together.
I like the theory that the Doctor and Master were actually the founders of the Timelords but had their minds wiped as part of a conspiracy
That's cool and makes sense
I like that, but I'm hoping for more of a, the doctor and master are the same person type deal. I want to see them try to explain that
I love Doctor Who please do more videos of Doctor who.
Thank you that was helpful. Maybe Missy is a different Timelord.
Could you do a video on the History of The Rani
The Master's history was always a bit confusing! THIS is no exception! Tho, The Mistress/Missy did seem to genuinely want to make it UP to the Doctor for what she did in previous lives, by even raising a Cyberman Army for the Doctor to use to bring peace to the universe!
I am so confused, yet still feeling informed. Lol!
Thank you for this wonderful video!
I think the meddling monk from heartnells time was one of the masters incarnations as well. trying to accelerate the earths technology is right up his ally
john doe he isn’t. The expanded media has pretty much confirmed that they’re separate people as other doctors meet other incarnations of the Monk and recognise them as the Monk. And Missy even meets the Meddling Monk in her spinoff
@@EditedAF987 I don't get into the expanded stuff, just the shows
john doe well even so, going by the show the Monk and the Master are both different in terms of their goals and personalities
My theory: Oi s after Missy. He has turned against the doctor because he was upset the doctor didn't save him like the master had seen him do to his other friends. He is insane again bc of what he found out about gallifrey. We Missy stabs the master she says welcome to the sisterhood meaning simm becomes a female. For Sacha to be before Missy then there would at least have to be another female master between simm and sacha for the sisterhood thing to make sense. Missy survived simm killing her bc if she slightly remembered it she could have adjusted the screwdriver without Simms master knowing. I know they can't remember meeting themselves but in Day of the doctor 11 says 'I remember this, or almost remember'. Also Missy might know she wouldn't have let herself live so she could have come up with a backup plan
Until we get some hard, confirmed stuff in the show....gonna HC that O is after SImm/Saxon and that Missy is the final master
I t was Macqueen who got the new regression cycle. :( why does no one talk about the Macqueen Master? he was so good. Also, the Jacbie Master is probably one of the scariest Masters. Aleast in my opinion.
I always just assumed that I regenerated from Simm but missy also did, in kind of a branched timelike thing with each time line having a different master. I like this better because it means Missy isn't the last master.
Even after watching the Timeless Child I'm still convinced that Sacha Master is pre-Missy. It honestly could go either way, but Sacha is full of Rage where Missy seems to have Tamed (in comparison, she's still a psychopath). I have a real hard time seeing it the other way around.
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Not to mention, she also came into her own army of Cybermen and what better way than through the Cyberium inside of her.
@Umishiru His "rage" has been there long before
caves of androzani was only a cameo/part of the doctors mind when regenerating not real appearance.
After the most recent episode and the creatures from Skyfall I think they’re gearing up for a multiverse with this being the alternate master and Ruth the alternate Doctor.
agreed looking more like the doctor is in some alternate universe as she caun,t understand the readings from the tardis. galifrey is destroyed and the master still has the beat of 4 drumming in his head
@@leevine2929 I dont think the Master still has the drumming. It's more so he'd obviously still be haunted by the memory and so hearing it got his attention instantly. They never actually say in the episode he still has it.
Time to make one on the doctor after series 12 episode 10 of the show once known as doctor who
hope to see the master come back
I've always thought that the TV Movie (8th Doctor) occurs with Delgado's Master being executed. His last appearance is working with the Daleks, and being taken away/running away in the confusion of that last episode (Frontier in Space). My theory is that he was taken away by the Daleks as a prisoner and executed for failing them, and the 7th Doctor grabbed his remains. In this theory, Delgado is the Master's final natural incarnation. The TV Movie happens, the Master takes over the human body, only to be sucked into the Eye of Harmony at the end. He's transported from there to the planet where he's found, burned and rotting from the expeerriience, by the Time Lord (name forgotten) who takes him back to Gallifrey - as he said, the Master "Had no more regenerations". The assassination plot (Deadly Assassin) transpires, where he >again< tries to use the Eye of Harmony to fix himself. Thwarted there, he escapes to Tremas where he >again< takes over a body, as this is the final skill he has to cheat death, and then things continue from there.
Nathan Elke yeah the EU pretty much confirms that’s not the case. We see Delgado begin regenerating at the end of Doorway to hell, we see a normal looking Geoffrey Beevers Master getting burnt on Terserus in the Two Masters, we also see how the Master escape the Eye of Harmony in Mastermind
@6:28 - We can't clearly see the disintegrated body of the Master, true, but it still has the glowing cat's eyes, which would seem to indicate that it was still the infected Tremas-body.
I thought that, however his eyes are actually more like snake-like eyes, which fits with the serpentine nature of the morphant. I believe that it's the 'Tzun' incarnation who we see being executed, following on from the Master's failed regeneration cycle given to him in the Virgin New Adventures novels.
Andrew Gilbertson the audio dust breeding showed that the Master had lost the Ainley body and had reverted back to the Beevers incarnation before the movie
People still fall for thinking the Master... or Missy in this case... is done for good.
The Master or Missy ALWAYS have a plan.
There's TWO masters running around now. O, and Missy's new form.
Two Master's? You mean only one current version, since O is likely post-Missy (by some miracle).
Very informative, you've gained a new sub sir
That’s very complicated, given the most recent doctor who episode, could you please do a video on all the regenerations of the doctor
John Simm worked so well with Tennant's doctor & had such energy in the part he is my favourite but it's hard as they all were so good. I enjoyed Eric Roberts as a very insane & over the top Master. Missy needed more episodes the few episodes she got just weren't enough & I hope she comes back but without current Masters info on who is the doctor is. Basically more master, I'd send them all after the doctor- could we have a solo Master series? Torchwood seems to be coming so why not Master!
I really loved missy... She was the best doctor in my opinion😔 I really want bbc to make a spin off about the master and the stuff he/she gets up to
I find her overated. Delgado was the best, I prefer class over loopyness.
I'll just say
Remember the paradox device that Simm made from the TARDIS?
And
The paradox caused by rassilon and the moment..
Missy was the most 'real' and deep character of all of the version of the Master I have seen (have not seen "O" yet).
sigh
the only thing my mind has done to keep my sanity is just rejecting season 12, as chibnall clearly just feels the need to reboot the entire series half assedly, disgracing the storyline of the show until this point
Disagree, I disliked all that (stupid) romantic stuff, and I'm bored with the revival Masters being over the top like that.
I'll take Delgado anyday.
Almost entirely accurate, allow me to fill in a few blanks. The book Legacy of the Daleks details Susan shooting the Roger Delgado Master with his own TCE and causing the Peter Pratt / Beevers decaying Master version (so not end of lifecycle). This is at odds with Big Finish's later audiobook The Two Masters (which someone mentioned below) which has Beevers and Alex McQueen and is also a very good story. Big Finish has done several stories with Beevers, all of them are worth listening to.
IIRC the encounter with Susan on Terserus was cited as using up the last regeneration and a reaction with some substance then ruined the final body?
Many People believe the War Chief from The war game was actually the first appearance of the master as he and the Doctor obviously know one another from their youth and talk about it. The war chief apparently dies, and is not present at the trail of the Doctor and the war Lord, but since he is a Time Lord, had possibly, probably regenerated in to the delgardo incarnation.
If you regard Virgin's Missing Adventures as canon (and I do), the War Chief cannot be the Master as the second Doctor had already encountered the Delgado Master, then using his real name Koschei, long before 'The War Games'.
@@stephenbirchard146 It's made clear that "Koschei" wasn't his real name.
Plus, read the Target books, which make it clear it is the same character.
Doesn’t the Saxon Master reference a time when the Doctor was a girl and them having some type of romance? Perhaps this Doctor is going to encounter a different version of the Master? Spoilers coming....
Maybe the multiverse theory they seem to be touching on this last episode is that version of the Doctor and the Saxon who claims they had a relationship was from the same alternate universe as the Doctor we saw this week?
At the time the TV Movie came out, my own personal theory was that Eric Roberts was the Master between the Delgado and Pratt/Beevers incarnations. I have no idea if the other media (novels, comics or audio) have superseded this, but this is how I thought it fit.
Instead of being a new incarnation, I thought Gordon Tipple was portraying the final moments of the Delgado Master (similar to Richard Hurndall and David Bradley both playing the Hartnell Doctor), following the events of Frontier in Space, when we last saw the Master and Daleks working together. Instead of the Third Doctor, the Master’s summons was received by the Seventh Doctor instead, who collects the Master’s remains from Skaro.
When the Master posseses Bruce, this is the first time he takes over another body, which starts to decay rapidly. When the Master gets sucked into the Eye of Harmony from the connection via the Doctor’s TARDIS, that somehow stabilised the Master’s decaying form long enough for Goth to find him on Terserus and bring him back to Gallifrey. But like I said, that was my personal take on that placement.
I also liked the initial idea by the 1980s FASA Doctor Who role playing game, that the Meddling Monk (Peter Butterworth) and the War Chief (Edward Brayshaw) were both earlier incarnations of the Master. Although I know this has been superseded by the novels and audios, I still think that initial idea made sense (especially now having watched a The Time Meddler, The Daleks’ Masterplan and The War Games), as William Hughes (the 8-year old Master, from The Sound of Drums) looked like a young Peter Butterworth, the Ainley Master had some very Monkish schemes (The King’s Demons, being a standout), and the War Chief seemed very Masterish in appearance, personality and motivation.
The current Dharwan Master could be either the latest Master, as I am sure Missy would have also remembered her Simms Incarnation shooting her in the back and taking precautions (similar to having a spare dematerialisation circuit to give to her former self). I can see why people think the new Master’s personality could fit between Simms and Gomez. Alternatively he could be from the same time-stream as the Jo Martin Doctor (although this Master seems to be aware of the Whittaker Doctor and their past).
Time will tell, it always does. Or like with some of the Master’s reappearances in the past, maybe it won’t...
Stephen Coppins all other media has confirmed that Roberts is after Ainley. We also see the Delgado master begin to regenerate at the end of Doorway to hell. The Meddling Monk has been confirmed to be an entirely separate character as he meets Missy in her spinoff
I find it quite nice that the new master is after missy as it be his 20th body that was first seen in 2020 “Born, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Died, Took over some bloke's body, Died, Died, Died, Became a human, Stopped being a human, Died, Died, Became a woman, Ruled! “ Was part of power girl in the Missy Chronicles.
The plot-hole I hope they answer about the O-Master is....where he fits in the chronology. Assuming the "Harold Saxon" Master was being truthful - he shot Missy with an anti-regeneration weapon. That should have killed the Master completely, but here we are with the O-Master.
After learning about Ruth - it is possible that the O-Master is from Ruth's point in the timeline.
Kalani Vernon you do know this is the Master we’re taking about right? He’s escaped far, far worse things than a simple laser
I always kinda wish Capaldi and Missy were the final incarnations of The Doctor and Missy, respectively. The Doctor felt like he came to peace at his life in the end, and Missy finally got what she wanted; standing with The Doctor and repairing their friendship.
It always felt like Jodie was a complete revival of the series. Tone changed, the time war was no longer a big deal, the master completely forgot about his character development, and not to mention the complete retcon of all the lore, story of the Doctor herself, the timelords and Gallafry itself.
After that last ep with that other doctor in wondering if that has to do with that master too like maybe they are both from an alternate timeline or somethin
Here is the list of actual incarnations of the Master. #1 Roger Delgado played the 12th Master. #2 Geoffrey Beeves played the 13th Master. 3# Derek Jacobi played the 14th Master. John Sims played the 15th Master. Michelle Gomez played the 16th Master
Derek jacobi is the 16th master, there are two incarnations before him in the new series of regenerations, the big finish master and the child master. There is also the 1st master who was recently in big finish audios.
Mike DeMarco actually Pratt and Beevers are the same incarnation. The events of the Deadly assassin healed the Decayed Master slightly and restored him closer to how he looked before being burned
There was a "master" (played by Peter Butterworth - better known for his "Carry on" appearances) during the William Hartnel years.
Stephen Gardiner wasn’t that the meddling monk? If so, he’s a completely different time lord
@@cameronbeattie3087 You are correct. This was indeed The Monk from The Time Meddler
(1965) & The Daleks' Master Plan (1965-66).
Stephen Gardiner the Meddling Monk is a completely different character to the Master. The two actually meet in the Missy spinoff
The decaying master (Pratt & Beevers) is strongly implied in the show (and explicitly stated in the show) to be a separate regeneration to Delgado. Something involving experimenting with the TCE in the show, being shot with it in the book by Susan, caused a regeneration but the new body was quickly damaged by fire or suchlike
Agreed about the Jodrell Bank reference dating O after Tremas
The possession of Tremas wasn’t an ability learnt through the Master’s research though - that was using power drawn from his brief tenure as the Keeper of Traken
And finally, they’d shown that some moments between Simm & Missy were remembered by her (always having a spare dematerialisation circuit) so I can’t help but think that she remembered shooting herself in the back so had some form of protection/shield/armour there under her frock coat
garibaldilebeau it’s not actually explicitly stated in the show that Beevers and Delgado are the same. In fact the expanded media has proved that they’re both different. We see Delgado begin to regenerate at the end of the comic Doorway to hell and we get a flashback sequence in the Two Masters which shows a pre-burnt Geoffrey Beevers Master on Terserus getting burnt
PC Andy Infinite except both episodes state he’s clinging to life at the end of his final regeneration
garibaldilebeau yeah, it’s confirmed that Pratt/Beevers is the 13th incarnation, they never confirmed he was Delgado though
PC Andy Infinite apologies...I read “separate regeneration” and missed Delgado. Thought you were denying they were the same person!
i think the timelord seen in the wargames who was cloning tardises was an early incarnation.
Didn't Alex Mcqueen play a Big Finish Master? 🤔
Yep, the adult form of the first incarnation, I've never listened to the audio stories I only know them because of the Wikia.
@@backtothefutureman1 No that was James Dreyfus who played the adult first incarnation
Yeah. He plays an incarnation of the Master from after he's resurrected by the Timelords but before the outbreak of the Time War. So before the Kid and War Masters.
@Michael McGrath I got those two confused for a second.
Exactly!
always wonder about the different schools of the timelords. its said once or twice that the doctor is from the trickster school. never found any answers when ive looked
I though he was Gryffindor?
Quimper111 no he was a prydonian
I think I have heard about audio where Missy was resurrected with her version of Valeyard but all good instead of evil, however that's all I know
At least until Series 12 (aka Series 38) concludes and Big Finish Productions release the audio story 'Masterful' a year from now to celebrate 50-years since the character's first appearance in 'Terror of the Autons' which will hopefully include more info on the Doctor's "best enemy", this is my own personal timeline of the Master's incarnations:
The 11th Master (James Dreyfus)
The 12th Master (Roger Delgado)
The 13th Master (Peter Pratt / Geoffrey Beevers)
The 14th Master (Anthony Ainley)
The 15th Master (Gordon Tipple)
The 16th Master (Eric Roberts)
The 17th Master (Alex Macqueen)
The 18th Master (Derek Jacobi)
The 19th Master (John Simm)
The 20th Master (aka 'Missy') (Michelle Gomez)
The 21st Master (Sacha Dhawan)
Roger Delgado is the 13th Master not the 12th
@@MichaelM28 I was about to reply, then I realised it was you and I know you're not worth it, so I'm not going to bother trying to have a serious conversation with you. That's all.
Technically peter pratt/geoffrey beevers, anthony ainley, gordon tipple and eric roberts would be the same incarnation (13th) as there was no regeneration, just stolen bodies, which makes the current master the 19th (there was the child master between macqueen and jacobi).
Also dreyfus was the 1st incarnation.
Alan Kelly Dreyfus is the 1st Master, not the 11th
The classic masters are the 13th incarnation. I know that you are using mostly on screen incarnations but we have also seen the 1st master and the first of the masters new series of regenerations in the big finish series, which has filled out the masters timeline. If you add the big finish and comics the big finish master is the 14th, the child master is the 15th, the war master is the 16th, john simm's master is 17th and if they don't change anything missy would be the 18th incarnation and the new master would be the 19th incarnation.
The new master could fit between john simm's master and missy but as he seems to know the events of new who it's highly unlikely for him to be between the 1st and 13th incarnations.
I can see the master being annoyed at being abandoned by the doctor and finding out the hidden truth and the more twisted morality of the master could have led them to destroy galifrey and that act turned the master back to being evil.
The crispy beavers master was the last incarnation of the first cycle and got deformed by the Macqueen master a la The two masters boxset. There's nothing in delgado's era to suggest he instantly turned into beavers 13'th incarnation master so he could be anywhere along that timeline inbetween James Dreyfusses' first master and Beaver's 13th master.
@Mike DeMarco but the master could have viewed it as being abandoned by the doctor.
@@charlestownsend9280 Well they were at extreme odds with themselves, considering both killed eachother to get their points across.
i beleave this new form is post missy, the result of a disrupted regeneration resetting the master to evil
looks like its an alternate time line master as the new doctor has now just met a doctor she does not remember and this master still has the beat af 4 drumming in his head
Another Doctor Who video! You are really spoiling us:)
As far as I understand it, the 'overarching' story lines of any of the characters are all a mish mash of having to deal with writers who are purely focused on much shorter story arcs and really don't care much about what happened before (and why should they) therefore they pretty much write with an immediate expediency. To thread it all together is to herd cats and needs an awful lot of 'because I said so' to take place.
You know, people complain sometimes about the ridiculousness of the End of Time's Master, but seeing this and reading about the Master's past lives make me realize that it's actually completely in character and those people are just no fun.
I prefer my Master to be classy over deranged.
I love "O" master, but who is he? If he is after Missy - Master, why is he evil again
Captain Geronimo something to do with the timeless child omaster referring to
That he felt justified to punish the timelords
The new one is after Missy, the actor has a video on this
What I thought was that after the master tried to stop missy regenerating, and the doctor not even batting an eye that his friend disappeared maybe caused her to get a bit mad at him, then when he discovered the timeless child it turned him deranged. This+what happened with his previous regeneration made him hate the doctor and evil
We have a new storyline where two doctors exist in parallel ... (ruth Doctor). Until we know why this is, its also feasible that the O Master may also be parallel ... so neither before or after Missy.
Just a thought ...
Different theory - given that we've just seen the Ruth Doctor, who does not fit anywhere in the timeline (yet) and it can be assumed that maybe she is an alternative universe Doctor, then maybe the SpyMaster is a similar case? An alternative universe Master?
This is my current theory.
It would also explain why Gallifrey is not blown up, but is blown up. Aside from the usual timey-wimey nature of Gallifrey since it's suppose to exist outside of time already.
Two Gallifreys doesn't sound too far fetched either. Perhaps Missy was the alternate and wasn't lying about Gallifrey's coordinates. But unintentionally gave the alternate coordinates. The coordinates were right, it was just the wrong universe.
Still, I doubt Chibnall puts as much thought into it as we have.
Actually When Saxon and Missy Shot eachother Saxon Regenerated into Missy so there was no different version of the Master between them
Great summary!
[Outsider looking in... Don;'t shoot the messenger]
I recall the way in which myself and my school mates reacted to the first broadcast appearance of Dlegado as 'The Master'
THE WAR CHIEF REGENERATED... GREAT !
And we waited in vain for this to eventually be affirmed.
How very different plots could have been, on the path not taken :)
I wish there would be episode where Missy and River were together...or even with Clara's tardis and Me.
I think Master O could be Missy's regeneration. She remembered to give Master Saxon a circuit for his TARDIS after he burned out the previous one because she remembered that so I think she may have taken the precaution of having something that could absorb most of the blast from his laser screwdriver. Perhaps O was trying to do right, but still had the same instability of the previous Masters and without someone like the Doctor to help it was easy enough to relapse when they learned whatever the truth is about the Timelords.
I give it a like even though I'm not really a fan of Doctor Who. Although I will if it's the older series qnd it has a Daleks in it.
Just a few things to state:
1. I have always thought that the newly introduced incarnation of The Master (who is played by Sacha Dhawan) is from somewhere between the “Harold Saxon” (played by John Simm) and “Missy” (played by Michelle Gomez) incarnations.
2. The Decaying Master (who was played by actors Peter Pratt and Geoffrey Beavers, respectively) was the same Master that was the first onscreen incarnation of him (played by Roger Delgado).
3. Nyssa didn’t technically become a companion when The Doctor first met her in The Keeper of Traken, but did so in the next consecutive story, Logopolis.
4. When The Master stole both Tremas (who was played by Anthony Ainley) and Bruce’s (as played by Eric Roberts) bodies for his own, they were technically him regenerating.
5. The Master that was executed by the Daleks was played by Gordon Tipple, but there are thoughts that he may have been the Anthony Ainley Master. He also survived his execution by the Daleks from some experiments they did on him before he was killed.
6. After The Thirteenth Doctor saw the Sacha Dhawan Master in that Nazi uniform, she stated that she didn’t think he would sink this low. I actually thought The Master hit rock bottom after he killed Tremas and then took his body just to save himself.
Joshua Curphey the Decaying Master has been confirmed to be a separate incarnation to Delgado as at the end of the twelfth Doctor comic Doorway to hell, the Delgado Master regenerates (although we don’t see who he regenerates into) and in the Two Masters we meet the pre decayed Beevers Master and see how he ended up getting burnt.
The Master stealing bodies isn’t the same as regeneration as the Beevers Master was still inside them, the Master eventually lost The Ainley body before the Movie and just reverted back to the Beevers Master and after the TV movie the Master eventually lost the Roberts body and reverted back to Beevers
Now there is the Alex McQueen Master from the Big Finish audio dramas and according to the comics you have a boy War Master who fought along side the War Doctor
Which would make the boy the 2nd War master, with Jacobi's Master being the 3rd War Master.
Cabolt44 MacQueen isn’t a War Master. He was around before the time war. His only involvement with the war was in Dark eyes when the Timelords tasked him with helping them try to prevent it
Yeah that seems like it's a real big confusing mess. One of my favorite thing about Doctor Who is the quotes I never watched the series I read some of the books though. One of the quote I remember most is some creature telling the doctor fear me I've killed hundreds of time Lords and the doctor replying with fear me I killed them all
That's from the episode "The Doctor's Wife" from Series 6.
@@thundervoid420 is there a book with a similar store in line to that season like the one where the doctor was on the planet of the psychic spiders?
@@eliandervalderen5849 Not too sure about that. Actually, pretty sure that's a no, considering the fact that the Time War did not happen yet in the story you're talking about (Planet of the Spiders). That was way before the Doctor "killed" the Time Lords off.
We do get to see the first incarnation of the master in big finishes first doctor range, mainly a grown up one of the child we saw in sound of drums.
Saya chan I mean he may not be the actual first one. Yes he had just left Gallifrey but he could’ve been the 2nd or 3rd even. It’s still not fully confirmed
EXCELLENT video