Can Mary Sues Have Flaws?
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- The dreaded Mary Sue has become one of the most infamous elements in fiction. While the argument for the specific definition rages on - one of the largest issues has been the subject of flaws. Normally, flawlessness is a clear sign that a character is a Mary Sue, but is that really true? Let's see.
New Intro by: / @shineyfx
Common Mary Sue Tropes: tvtropes.org/p...
Rey's Weakness: www.forbes.com...
Art of Rey looking up at the sky: Derek Horne
Tutorial Demon artwork: (Xofrats) / xofrats
Tutorial Demon voice: (Blue Teddy Narrations) / channel
Me: “Oooh new video.”
LD: “Question: can a Rey have flaws?”
Me: “This is the content I’m here for.”
"That's... why I'm here."
Does a Snoke shit in the woods?
@@Yusuke_Denton only if it’s made irrelevant on a “plot twist”
Goddamnit I was gonna do a tfw senpai notices you edit but I didn’t realize it gets rid of being pinned/hearted when you edit. Now I’m sad
Edit: Senpai noticed me! Again!
Me: "HA! Five seconds in and you already got my like." 😆
"She's blonde, she's smart, she's loved by everyone, she has no character flaws except being too naive and clumsy, she loves everyone unconditionally, anyone who would harm her is actually evil..."
I see no problem with this if we're talking about a golden retriever...
that definitely sounds like a good pup waiting to be pet
Unless it’s an EVIL golden retriever
I know that sounds impossible but like a killer cyborg dog or something.
No. Tis an impossible occurrence. The angelic nature of a golden retriever would overcome and overwrite any malice that attempts to be imposed upon it
To summarize, a Mary Sue is characterized not by a lack of flaws, but by a lack of _fault._
"Why not both?"
Nice summary.
Well, it's really a combination of the two.
Since a Mary Sue is a form of wish fulfilment, could a Mary Sue have a disadvantage that no girl would want? Like permanent disfigurement?
@@cityman2312 Only if it was resolved easily (magic) or somehow made them more desirable as per the archetype. I proofread a fantasy story with a disfigurement of bird-like wings from a bat-like species. The MC mistaken for an angel by humans. Ultimately its about the true narrative weight these disadvantages are given within the archetype, which is just face value.
The "rarely faces consequences" is something that REALLY bothers me in a story. A character will do dumb stuff going against the advice of people that clearly knows better, but then either nothing happens or the dumb action actually makes things better, essentiatly rewarding the bad behavior.
Yeah, it completely takes the impact of Rey being reckless enough to try change Kylo Wren in TLJ. Overambition would have been a good character flaw for Rey to have, and that part in TLJ set it up well as she just gets captured by Kylo Wren with seemingly no change. But then the movie just negates it later by having it work out it the end.
That's precisely why Korra pissed me off so much in Legend Of Korra. Here was Aang's kid, an old Air Bender now trying to teach her stillness and peace of mind in order to air bend and she can't learn it and rages that he's stupid and doesn't know what he's doing and was a bad teacher.
Then she air bends later without using any of his advice, basically proving her right that yeah he is a dumb old man and she basically didn't need him. Then HE apologizes to HER despite her being a snotty brat to him and it being entirely her fault.
It only gets worse from there.
@@SirBladewind To be fair, lok was intended as 1 season show, later 2 season show, only after that nickelodeon was like "yep, this should a full show" and ordered seasons 3 and 4. Even Atla would've been just okay show with such messy planning and deadlines.
And pricks like E:R were insulting Bryke. I mean what could you expect from a supposed "critic" , who didn't even review the whole thing, just the first season and beginnings episode, despite having 8 BIG VIDEOS ON THE HIS CHANNEL ABOUT LOK. He even reviewed after-finale comics, without reviewing the final season. And he got more subs than this channel, somehow
@@darkleome5409 I kinda agree with ER why it sucks though. It basically ignores all regular canon to make Korra stupid powerful for no reason and barely gives her consequences for her bad actions. Her bending was gone for all of 5 minutes. She learns almost all bending as a CHILD when Aang learned it in a year and only after he had mastered air bending and was considered a prodigy even among avatars, ect.
Nevermind the horrible romances they jammed in there that just kind of derailed the plot for no reason.
LoK was garbage.
@@SirBladewind lok being garbage doesn't make him a good creator. It's pretty telling if someone couldn't even do a good critique of a bad show.
Also, why are you describing to me how lok is garbage, as if I said it was good.
Today I learned that “a trekkie’s tale” was a satirical parody. I went from hating it to loving it in 15 and a half seconds
Yeah, that's something a lot of people don't mention. Paula Smith, as far as I've read, was an editor that noticed an epidemic of odd fanfiction entries that all had young female geniuses playing out a personal fantasy with Spock, Kirk and the rest of the ship. And then she made fun of it all lol. Paula Smith is old school Toxic Brood.
@@LiteratureDevil Lol, it’s a good thing she did that though, her OC has given us an amazing case study of this brand of poorly written characters. It’s fitting, and deliciously ironic that we put abortions like Rey in a catagory named after an ironic take on them. Kinda like naming a new species after the scientist that discovered it
The trope is usually a joke
“A Trekkie’s Tale”, in my opinion, shows when creating a Mary Sue is appropriate. The work is a parody, subtly poking fun at self-inserts and is mostly there to have a good laugh.
Clearly the modern usage has transcended, surpassed, and eclipsed the original example.
Way to miss the point dude
Okay I can appreciate this. Its like that comedy where the dude keeps imagining himself in the Rambo movies. Anyone remember what that was?
@@sinwithagrin4243 wasn't that weird al in UHF?
Like that one episode of The Boondocks, "The Lovely Ebony Brown" where Riley meets the super talented, philanthropic, and drop dead sexy Ebony Brown (she even seems to magically cure a disease onscreen, she's just that awesome) and even Uncle Ruckus can't be his usual toxic racist self because she brushes off his insults and even he becomes attracted to her, and she is only chased away because of Riley's paranoia and insecurities, but he comes out stronger by reopening his Facebook and getting back into the dating ring.
Like A Trekkie's Tale, the scenario is ridiculous enough for the audience to realize it's a parody. But with Rey, it's just painful.
Text: Can Mary Sues Have Flaws?
Literature Devil: "Can Rey Have Flaws?"
Starwars fan : you're goddamn right
Ahem...(paraphrasing a legendary movie)
"If you're afraid of good writing, and you're holding on (to your first draft), you'll see Literature Devils tearing' your script apart. But if you've made your peace (with the fact you're a bad writer), then the Literature Devils are really Literature Angels, freeing' you from being a hack. It all depends on how you look at it."
Lol! Fantastic
Great one!
Source please?
@@Ramsey276one The movie is called Jacob's Ladder.
@@PunxsutawneyDave Thanks
So you’re saying that “The Lion King” has better plot and character development than the sequel trilogy? I mean...you’re not WRONG...
The lion king is basically hamlet in Africa with cats so yeah
I find that the best way to write a character flaw is to take a positive trait and flip it on it's head- a character is exceptionally talented and skilled at a young age? They will probably be arrogant to a certain degree. A character is noted for their Loyalty? Test that loyalty, demonstrate the flaws of being too loyal to a person/idea/belief/country/cause. A character is Strong? put them in situations where their strength is tested, or is useless, if not detrimental, make them feel or become powerless and have them struggle with the fallout, the self doubt. A character is Heroic? Give them a reason to hate something or someone, put them in a situation where they will be severely tempted to seek revenge. Show the fallout from their rage.
Very true.
Fully agree
That's EXACTLY how the best writing comes about. Totally agree with you man.
The best strengths are those that can be flaws. And the best flaws are those that can be strengths. Add dimensions to it.
Agree 100%.
Commanding Officer: "All right McKill, you're the most seasoned, experienced, martial artist, technician, and doctor in our highly elite special forces unit despite only being 19! We're going to need to you to go into the enemy camp and single-handedly defeat all the enemy soldiers and rescue our men"
Tony McKill: "But sir, I'm a lousy cook."
Commanding Officer: "Good God. We're gonna have to scrap this mission."
LOVE THIS
The villain should be a famous chef.
@Patrick Frost the main villain is Gordon Ramsey. If he can’t have the lamb sauce, no one can...
Today it would be more like "Ok, we'll have to send a cook along with you to show that you're no Mary Sue because you need someone to make you supper".
Btw, irl people have actually taken an entire enemy camp by themselves and even a small town, search for Leo Mayor
Real life doesnt have any necesity to be "realistic"
Me: this character is a Mary Sue.
Author: not he's not.... he's bad at knitting.
Maybe if the story revolved around a textiles competition it could actually count as a flaw?
Whatta ya know, this sums up RWBY. Ironwood got demonized for going against Ruby, and Emerald got redeemed over the course of 5 minutes.
I was about to say I didnt think Ruby is a Mary Sue and that I didnt remember that scene.
Then I remembered I dropped the show after Volume 5... Glad I did...
@@axios4702 Adel aka is the only reason I know. I dropped it after V6.
@@nocount7517 I loved that show you know. I found it in my early teens when they had just finished volume 2. The music, the fight scenes, the characters. I loved watching as they got more budget and everything gained in quality... It was awesome!
And then the creator died, and everything went downhill from there... Like the rest of Rooster Teeth did.
@@axios4702 They got woke, they went broke. Along with all the horrible mismanagement and the #KickVic scandal.
#StandWithVic
Glad someone mentioned RWBY. Was just watching an video about the shows nonsense.
Rey's desire for parents is a meta flaw anyway. (Is that the right way to say it? I'm going to say it's the right way.) In TFA, she never says she doesn't know who her parents are or that she doesn't remember them. She says she is waiting for her family. When Maz Kanata tells her whoever she is waiting for is never coming back, Rey seems to accept this. She moves on.
BUT SUDDENLY, in TLJ she is obsessed with who her parents were. Why does it matter? Because the audience cares. It's so annoying.
well put. a classic example of a writer succumbing to the desires of the fans, even though the decision makes no sense for the story.
You're using meta correctly, rest assured. I'm an autodidact etymologist.
I never seen TLJ or RoTS but I thought or dare even say I liked TFA, but I haven't watched them but it seems like they had no idea what to do with the stories and characters. It was speculated at first, and I think then later confirmed by the actors/actresses that they didn't know where the story was headed. I also heard and don't get them crapping on the OG characters. Also I think Finn was wasted, Reylo makes no sense, and they didn't need to add some characters like Rose Tico.
@@RollingDodge I heard suggestions that when Forehead did the second movie, he deliberately ignored the plot threads he was given, and refused to properly set up the threads for the third movie. Part of his "innovation" was all of a sudden bringing Rey's parent concern back in. TBF, Abrams got pissed at this, and not only sunk all the threads Rian set up, but then went off script and added things that directly retconned Rian set up.
@@RollingDodge That's commodification for you. The sequels are just drawn-out commercials, more concerned about ticking off checkboxes than making a cohesive or original narrative. Like, did you really think we might get a bunch of stormtrooper characters who have no one else besides each other, end up deserting and try to somehow survive, only joining the resistance after they run out of options?
I know, that's too original and might be too dark for the kids, unlike Luke cutting off the Yeti's arm.
I remember someone trying to claim Luke piloting an X-wing makes him a Gary Stu, that was their only arguement
It IS technically an argument. It's just a terrible and empty one lol
It seems common for characters to be good at 1 or 2 skills before the story starts.
If someone has a long list of excellent skills they probably aren't written very well.
It's hilarious that since Rey came along, people started claiming Luke and Anakin were Gary Stu when they aren't. It also reminds me how in response to Ep.7 being a Ep.4 ripoff, someone told me Ep.1 was a ripoff of Ep.4 LOL
@@Deuteromis the only thing they had in common was a star vessel blew up, I don't think they really even watched Ep. 1...
@@MenxiGoblinQueen That or they haven't seen it in a long time. Their justification were cause both featured Round ships, Tattooine, and the Jedi had to rescue someone of royalty. Still had a good laugh reading it.
If you mean “Can a Mary Sue have flaws that will negatively impact them?” The answer is no. The plot revolving around the character is what makes a Sue a Sue. Can’t have any of that pesky learning from your mistakes.
Exactly. Mary Sues can only have flaws that ultimately only serve to be easily overcome and work to the boon of them. Case in point: Rey having powers she can't control, but learns to control them after like 5 minutes, which makes her even more powerful, more special, more awesome, with no pain on the way.
Or they just have flaws that no one cares about or a flaw that no one in universe brings up.
Ehh I disagree, plot revolving around a character could describes many main/central characters, so I don't think that's accurate. It's more of the plot, the other characters, or the universe bending for the character, the story getting sacrificed just to make the character look good is what I think makes a someone a mary sue.
wait, a thing from you!? IS THIS A MIRACLE!?
@Sasuke Is better than you how dare you
@Spare Slipstreamz I have no clue, I am just pulling shit for laughs :P
@Spare Slipstreamz No worries! :) We cool!
now back to my hibernation and to wait for a new video
If you’re not going to write the character with a specific flaw, like, “Anger Issues” “Greedy” “Insecure” Etc, you should make the character naturally make mistakes like every other human being. For example, you can have the character miscalculate on a strategic plan, and have that mistake be meaningful by causing thousands of lives to be lost in the war, and have the character be weighed down by the guilt that he, she, or other, caused it.
One example of this alternate trope (Which is rare) can be found in two stories: Marvels Miles Morales, the intro specifically, and Moana. In the beginning of Miles Morales, Peter Parker is established to be a well-trained Spider-Man with years of experience under his belt, and yet against a villain known as The Rhino, who he has defeated several times, loses. He didn’t lose because of some deep-seated flaw- he just lost. He didn’t do good enough, and because of that, he gets knocked unconscious, with fatal injuries, with his apprentice going against a dangerous villain ALONE because he didn’t do good enough. Moana, in the climax, calculates that she and Maui may be able to use maneuver over to some rocks, (I haven’t seen the flick in a while, so some details may be skewed) they try it, and they *fail.* Moana didn’t have overconfidence or cocky as a flaw- she was just wrong. She made a mistake. She miscalculated, and because she did, Maui’s hook broke, and he gave up on the mission, Moana has a depressed mood, and the darkest hour kicks off. The important thing about the “Mistake” style of writing is that each mistake should have proportionate consequences.
Stuff like that (aka risky moves going wrong for apparantly no reason but chance) sounds like good setups for plots. "Years ago, Group X tried to pull off plan Y, but they failed and disbanded. Years later, an event related to the failed plan forces the old cast to come together again." Ha, might as well be the plot for an agent or action movie.
@@spacejunk2186 It’s not a chance-based failed plan, it’s a human mistake. The strategic situation going wrong doesn’t go wrong because there was a 70% chance it could go right, it goes wrong because the character didn’t form his strategy well enough. They simply didn’t do good enough. Peter could have done better, but he made a mistake. He accidentally got shoved through a building, he didn’t try hard enough, maybe he didn’t think to that he needed to commit all effort since Miles was helping, (That is more of a flaw than a mistake) but quite frankly, we don’t win every fight we go into. The person we beat the last two encounters may kick our butts in the third round. Moana made a miscalculation- she didn’t account for the lava monster hurling the lava toward her, she didn’t think to test it’s range, and had Maui go up against something he already failed to defeat once before. The two situations are human mistakes, and since human mistakes aren’t as commonly used in writing, it’s what interests me.
It's funny that they also did that with Rey but they bailed halfway making her mistakes randomly turn into good things
@@OK-yy6qz Or making the mistakes inconsequential, Aka the Chewie fake-out death.
@DJHart What do you mean? List an example.
Big spoilers for Hot Fuzz
I view the character of Nicolas Angel is a deconstruction of the Mary Sue. At the start, we get a montage of showing how he's a hyper competent officer who can do everything, win every fights against crime, all that flawlessness... Until he got stabbed in the hand by a mall Santa, things kept going down hill from there, his entire department hates his guts for making them look bad, his girlfriend dumped him because of his obsession of the job. Moving to Sanford wasn't any better as it's department was a joke, which making it worse as they shoots down anything he points out about the series of "accidents" alluding to a murder mystery, hell, even his conspiracy theory was debunked by the villains reveal. It was until he embraced the ridiculousness of it all and let go of his by the book obsession, he finally put up a fight against the evil of Sanford and uphold the law. His flawlessness in a way became a vehicle for his flaw, his obsession with the rule, which he has to overcome to beat the challenge he found himself in.
I don't even think a Mary Sue has to be "the" best, I've absolutely seen Mary Sue characters who were intentionally kept a rank or two lower than the canonically strongest people. Like having your original character "only" be the third strongest after Goku and Vegeta, or having him be only slightly weaker and less intelligent than Superman or Batman, or they give them weird limitations like a character being faster than the Flash but with the limitation of only being able to run in a straight line at high speeds, so he can't zig-zag around enemies, only get fast from point A to B.
Also tired of hearing many white-knight fans defend Mary Sues by claiming those only exist within fanfiction...
@Itachi Is superior to you Naruto (the manga) has so many characters that could be considered Mary Sues that Sasuke doesn't even really stick out too much.
Naruto, Itachi, Kakashi and Kin/Ginkaku are the other noticeable ones in my opinion.
Naruto is self-explanatory as he's Ninja-Jesus.
Itachi and Kakashi were shilled for on a constant basis by every character in the story and at least Kakashi had some rule-breaking powers, though Kakashi also had some big flaws, which however, were never acknowledged by the story itself.
Kinkaku and Ginkaku are literally on the tier of bad fanfiction characters some 5 year old designed.
@@Dionysus24779 I wouldn't say Kakashi was inherently a Gary Stu, but Shippuden really took its toll on consistency, the end of that story was a shitfest of infinite chakra.
@@Dionysus24779 I know a character who is almost, if not straight up borderline, a mary sue, but because of white knights, sjws, "edgleord" super young kids basically worshipping her almost like a goddess (almost like gadget, who is from disney's "chip & dale" cartoon series, being worshipped as a religion-like cult in Russia, though is character isn't as badly worshipped as her) and will defend her from everything and NOT allow you to dislike her, I can NOT mention her name...
Mary Sues have existed in established canon in franchises long before the advent of Rey.
Remember Wesley Crusher?
The character that had its own newsgroup called alt.wesley.crusher.die.die.die?
The character that Gene Roddenberry even admitted to being his Canon Sue?
Was there ANYONE in the world who actually liked that character?
To be fair, that Flash example actually sounds like a cool power that has limitations that would still keep the Flash relevant. I could absolutely see a "super speed sprint" power not overtaking rhe Flash's slot.
I just like to daydream little cartoons in my head while I pace, and even I take flaws into account even if its just to amuse myself more in my terribly "written" ''cartoons" :p
It’s a common rule that any flaws a Mary/Gary Stu may have will be nullified and even prove to be a boon to both them and their allies/friends.
Failure to comply will eventually result in the destruction of said fictional universe and force a reset, thus is the natural order of things.
In other words, Sues don't matter, this video is stupid, and writers should focus more on cause-causation instead.
@@pmester228 Eh, It's more like if your characters have a flaw, let that flaw carry the story. Yes, cause and effect are part of that.
Now, my personal theory is that what is a Mary Sue in one context can fail to be a Mary Sue in another context.
An explanation for those interested in a more thought out answer below:
So it's like if you wrote a Batman story but instead of replaced him with Superman and try to continue like it was Batman. The problem is that the themes of Batman don't work with Superman as the protagonist (unless you change what makes superman tick which is why injustice works so well). Superman is a character who has already achieved what Batman hasn't: Trust (in friends, Family, other heroes, his abilities). Batman has to train his body nonstop to match his abilities with other heroes, has backup plans just in case any superhero goes awry, trained everyone he considers family in martial arts (not usually Alfred, but he does have experience in finding information depending on the version), and he has for Superman, who in most situations is friends from what I have seen, a plan just in case he has to end him. If you replace Batman with Superman and try to communicate the same themes through him, Superman would seem like a Mary Sue. For a considerable situation let's look at this situation: This is the final issue of this arc. Joker has threatened to blow up all of Gotham with a multiple bombs placed thought out the city to break the mind of the hero even further. If this was Batman who had to solve it, he would find the bombs through clues he picked up in the story previously. If he has had trouble relying on allies in this story and fails to catch Joker because he found a way to get Damien to hang out with the Titans because he didn't want him to get hurt, a natural conclusion is either for him to get help getting citizens out of Gotham with the help of those like Superman and the Flash or ask them to gather them all up and throw them into space. Just assume that other situations with other heroes had happened as well. Superman, on the other hand was said in the story to have the same troubles and deal with them the same way, would have likely just have spread through the town himself and disposed of the bombs in space. At face value (since), the theme of trusting others to help you out in tight situations wouldn't apply in the second one if that's what you're trying to communicate to the audience primarily in this story because the logical endings of both situations are different with both of these characters. It would feel like it was too easy for him because of his abilities and other qualities. Luckily, this has been avoid because Superman has had many good writers over the years that knew how to characterize him. To summarize, a character might be a Mary Sue in another context or story is because the themes of that story are not reliant on anything that would the character interesting or meaningful.
@@joshuayonemura2572 I'd still argue Rey isn't a Mary Sue...
She's an action figure.
Let me explain why. You see, I've been writing a character for one of my stories, Ághel, a female white dragon who's into martial arts and is basically the strongest person so far, as long as magic isn't involved.
Her whole motivation is that she loves the thrill of fighting, and even after such a long time, she still views sparring as a game. Now, I thought to myself, "Wouldn't other martial artists call that out, thinking she would be nowhere near as stellar in a life-or-death situation?"
Well, she would still be very effective, but that little note about the character made me think. You see, it's an indicator. These are things I didn't plan for, but they were a welcome surprise once I started working the character out.
Rey has none of these. She grew up on a desert planet, without any kind of a guardian figure, we don't know how others saw her, if she had an uncanny ability to ROFL-stomp her enemies that would have invoked fear in others. She isn't a Sith experiment either. She doesn't look in awe at forests or large bodies of water, she would probably not have any trouble swimming either.
Why? Because she's there to look cool! Why a woman? So that Disney could virtue signal and also have free marketing via Twitter. Why the backstory? A mixture of nostalgia and a half-baked certificate of badassery, just enough to fit on the box as flavour text. Why fangirl over Han Solo? Because she's also a vessel for the audience, like one of those ReaderXSomething stories.
Sure, that one noteworthy surprise I added to Ághel's bio was mitigated, but because she has been practicing combat moves for a hundred years and they were drilled into her body. She still loses against her mate once magic is allowed in the spar and she still has to work on adapting to new situations, and using those drilled-in moves effectively.
Good luck finding that type of depth in Rey's fighting style. You'd think she would have a lightsaber-resistant quarterstaff or a double-sided lightsaber, considering that scene in TFA. But nope, she's now a Jedi temple guardian. Though they did use double-bladed yellow lightsabers, so that's a double fuckup.
But again, the dual-balded lightsaber is probably reserved for the Darth Rey action figures.
@@pmester228 You're right. Also my statement holds up. If she was actually a character... I mean actually had a personality she could be a well-written character in a different context. Actually, it would work in a universe where everyone is more powerful than her, but then again, you would need to write her a personality.
@@joshuayonemura2572 Being weaker isn't necessary.
Rey was able to swim despite being on a desert planet a vast majority of her life to the point where seeing rain mystified her.
There was also the time where Snoke's guards purposefully changed the directions of their swings without any input from her in order to avoid killing her. Also that second knife one guard had that was edited out because she'd be dead the second time that same fight.
I feel like a better comparison between Luke and Rey's impulsiveness can be found in comparing Empire Strikes Back and the Last Jedi.
In Empire, Luke recklessly and impulsively ends his training and rushes off to save his friends, even against the warnings of Yoda and Obi-Wan. What happens? He gets his ass kicked, looses a hand, has his reality shattered with the big reveal, and puts his friends in danger by forcing them to save him.
Compare this to when Rey rushes off to confront Kylo in Last Jedi. What happens as a result? Snoke and his guards end up dead, she breaks Luke's lightsaber, and then she swoops in later on the Falcon to save the day. Nothing really bad happens as a result of her "impulsiveness." It's not like her going to the First Order revealed the Resistance escape attempt; they did that with Finn's pointless subplot. The worst that happens is the lightsaber breaks, but they just fix it in the next movie.
Luke's impulsiveness has consequences for both him and his friends, Rey's just shifted who the main villain was (for the rest of the movie at least).
Or you could look at everyone's first lightsaber duels. Anakin and Luke both had training and they still lost to Sith Lords with decades of experience. Rey never held a lightsaber in her life and she beats a Sith Apprentice and I am not going to buy the excuse "he was injured and emotionally unbalanced." Because that didn't stop him from beating Finn who had held a lightsaber before and the bowcaster didn't knock him on his ass so he can still fight.
The fact that videos are still being made about the flaws around Star Wars ep 7-9 with such good arguments and details shows that these movies will be used in the future as text book examples of bad story writing.
Oh and be prepared to be called a man afraid of strong female characters.
I'm pretty sure you're correct and I'm already prepared lol
Well at least teacher has used TLJ in that capacity.
Also, lets stick to only rey's 1st movie since no one here ever bothered to watch the other 2. *smirks
Lol!
I made it half way through the second one and I regret my decision.
@@tylrdean omg, someone should give you a medal. You are much braver than I. GG. I hereby prescribe you 4 hours of kitten videos to scrub your brain.
@@Draco_WarriorEX you will not bribe me withOMYGIDTHEYARESOFLUFFY
And thus continues the thrilling race of glacial video releases between Literature Devil and PSA Sitch.
You know the "they let us go." carries more weight when you remember that the Stormtrooper missed them on purpose.
It's not an invisible castle. It's clearly a klingon bird of prey.
Good point lol
As a writer in training, there's a quote whose accuracy I've come to hate:
"Kill you darlings.
Make them suffer for what they want most.
Force them to confront that which they hate about themselves.
Give them tormentors that bring out the worst in them.
Tempt them with their worst vices.
Throw monsters at them who exploit their worst fears.
Not because you hate them, but because your job is to make your audience act the way you do: watch in horror, praying that some semblance of what they love will survive."
Im writing a story. Its follows people woth special abilities either being physical, psychic or a mix of the two. It follows a veteran of several fronts who is forced to become a guardian for a high ranking family. He's powerful because of his training but because He's so far detatched from training when he tries to save one of them he literally tears his own muscels down to the fibers leading to extensive medical issues. Am i doing it correctly? He has other issues but yhose are all under self control
Me after listening to the fanfic "what the actual ear cancer was i just exposed to?!"
...Wait, was that ACTUALLY a straight reading of the star trek fanfic of Mary Sue and not a summarization
If you thought that was bad, that was an intentional exaggeration of how people typically write these sorts of stories/characters. Imagine how bad the ones that come from the heart (or ovaries) are...
@@insulttothehumanrace3807 .....do i have to?
@@finalbladecrisis No, you do not have to, in fact your mind is healthier for not imagining it.
To be fair, it IS a parody.
That doesn't make it a very interesting- or good- read, though.
There is a light novel that the Mary Sue is the antagonist and the protagonist is a guy who doesn't like her but the Mary Sue likes the protagonist. The universe warps around Mary Sue's will and the story became a elderich horror where nobody understands the protagonist and everyone say he's evil or jealous.
It's a cool concept.
Name?
Bro, name????
sauce ?
@@crowthewicked8344 It's in Japanese and its been a while since I read it so I don't know what its like right now.
メアリー・スーには屈しない
Google translation: Don't give in to Mary Sue
@@peter-sw1pm メアリー・スーには屈しない
Google translation: Don't give in to Mary Sue
There's an anime from last year that - while very dumb - I loved for how it dealt with this idea. My Next Life As a Villainess had a character who was born into wealth and privilege, had a special power of sorts (foreknowledge of the future of the setting), for whom everything always went right, and who everyone instantly fell in love with.
But.... it worked, because said character was INCREDIBLY stupid. She had no real appreciation of how good her circumstances were, often used her foreknowledge very poorly or inefficiently, constantly failed to understand what the people around here were thinking or feeling, and committed nigh-endless social faux pas. Instead of an invincible Mary Sue, everyone around her basically considered her a bombastic idiot, whose supreme lack of intelligence was offset by a genuinely good nature and boundless compassion for those around her. She ultimately 'won' not by any particular skill or strength, but simply because she actually gave a damn about the people surrounding her and would hear them out and try to help them - which meant that in turn, those people would always have her back.
I actually heard somewhere that A Trekkie's Tale was actually supposed to be a parody of Mary Sue/Gary Stu stories being written at the time.
It is. Paula Smith was an editor for a Star Trek Fan-Zine. From what I've read, she noticed a lot of fanfiction being sent in by house wives who's main characters all shared similar elements. Smith put together the most common elements and made A Trekkie's Tale. Since then, it has become one of is not the closest thing to a real study on the Mary Sue that we have which is why, even today, people who TALK about the Mary Sue still cite the story.
@@LiteratureDevil cool! I wasn't sure if you were aware of that, so I figured I'd mention it.
(also imagine if it turned out that the Disney movies were actually parodies and were never meant to be taken seriously)
I’m a total literature and language nerd, so I love your content. Keep it up, one of my most favorite channels
This is one Hell of a great video. The thing I enjoy the most about watching your content is treating each as a lesson to be applied to my own story, and seeing how it applies.
Example: The short temper of the protagonist gets her into a fight where she's nearly murdered and if not for another character's judgment, the authorities would've never come to rescue her. This encounter leaves her pride completely shattered and has her questioning her abilities as a soldier. Because of this, she ends up doubting herself in crucial moments, like when she encounters the Hunters, this time, as their prey. She hesitates and doesn't immediately spring into action, meaning she got shot and wounded, with the Hunters deciding to go after her sister and leave her to the hounds. If it wasn't for her twin, she would've been devoured by the hounds.
In other words, one flaw led to the creation of another.
The reason this is relevant was that I was here thinking "Oh crap! Does the flaws I gave my protagonist negatively impact her?!" without realizing that I had basically already written that in there.
Rey can't be the Belle Delphine of Jakku. I don't think she had taken a bath in ages.
Lol!
Like all Mary Sues, Rey is made of Teflon - the environment has no lasting negative effect on her. Dirt doesn't stick to her, she's the only scavenger who always makes moral choices, and, despite living alone since early childhood, she has little trouble making new friends.
(Yet to watch vid)
“Can a Mary Sue have flaws?”
Yes. Its the fact they exist.
"Can Mary Sue's have flaws?"
Excuse me, being a Mary Sue IS a flaw.
Not a Rey fan, but wouldn’t a meaningful flaw be how she she’s everything in black and white? I mean that’s what makes her confront Snoke and put all her trust in Kyle Ren in the first place? And that’s what spurred Kylo to kill Snoke and take charge of the first order? I mean I guess it’s ultimately meaningless by Rise of Skywalker but that’s more JJ Abram’s fault.
Amazing analysis, I LOVE the re-imagined story line for Rey.
Rey has officially replaced Mary sue
She's its final form lol
@@LiteratureDevil mega evolution it is
The Legendary Lit has returned once again
And I'm already working on my next one. Hopefully it won't take nearly as long
@@LiteratureDevil always welcomed. You always made some unique talks about tropes. I used your Superman video from last time to make a review about the problem of Overpowered characters in Anime
That was a lot of MacBeth in a minute-forty, sir. I appreciate the ‘primrose path’ reference quite a bit.
the real thing is a flaw that would make another character bad or detestable is twisted into a positive for the mar sue. Oh, you talk shit to people, ignore orders because you're upset, and are snyde? that's just her being quirky and strong-willed. If you call her out on it you're the bad guy.
That actually seems to be the current trends. Heroes who come off as villains, but are revered as heroes.
I think this is what TVT calls a "designated hero".
Yeah I've been calling out a Mary sue for months stopped for months cause it looked like he was getting character development to not be a sue and then they go retcon the flaw I thought he had. Worst nobody thought he was a Mary sue but me
@@Depressed_Spider thankyou that'll be good in my search
I’ll never forgive RUclips for making this video dodge my feed.
Great video LD!
Thanks! Very glad you liked it
This video led me to the conclusion that flaws have nothing to do with the Mary Sue, but the lack of meaningful conflict is a core trait of the Mary Sue. It took me a year to get there, but I did.
You got it!
You know what could be an interesting twist? An anti-Mary-Sue.
A deeply flawed character that the universe bends itself to make the character seem perfect and this character is continually refusing the call the journey and is helpless, if not a victim to the whims of fate. And even calls out the universe insanity for them alone.
That is, the universe needs it's perfect hero and this chosen hero wants none of it, but is not allowed the choice to refuse.
Like a Cursed being who is blessed with God's curse.
There are a character type known as an "Anti Sue" filled with flaws and failiure. They are just as bad as Mary Sue characters. Thou what you describe isn't that either thou I do not what to such a character. Some heroes refuse the call to adventure for some time but the world doesn't bend to accommodate them.
Wasn't that Arthur in the Hitchhiker's Guide the Galaxy issue. Wasn't that most of the main characters in that series of books?
I guess you mean like a gambler that automatically wins all his gambles due to a higher power. Which makes him miserable since its not gambling if victory is a sure thing.
@@dbsommers1 Not a gambler but that kinda sounds like Saitama in One Punch Man.
Wow. Great video! I love how you broke down the difference between real flaws and fake/informed flaws. More people need to watch this!
Rey is a good example, of course, but can you do TCW's Ahsoka Tano next?? Lol. She's just as big a Mary Sue as Rey. Her "flaws" cause no consequences for her - her bad behaviour is either ignored or rewarded by the narrative - just like Rey, Ahsoka is held faultless. And I'm rather frustrated that so few people recognize just how awful of a character she is, both in terms of writing and her actual personality/character traits.
Personally while I see where you're coming from, Ahsoka's flaw of recklessness is more a flaw of overconfidence. She believes she's as good as Anakin and Obi-Wan and it leads her to jumping the gun like they do sometimes, leading to situations where she's in danger, outplaying the clock until help comes and she does get reprimanded, or even more so flat out losing, such as when she thought she could go toe to toe with General Grievous, which she was shown immediately that she couldn't, being forced to retreat. Plus anyone that would do any serious reprimands would be disinclined to not because they love Ahsoka (although they do because basically she's their younger sister) but because THEY DO THE SAME THINGS. Anakin "Fuck the Council" Skywalker and Obi-Wan "Rules are a guideline" Kenobi are the ones tasked with telling Ahsoka "Circumventing your superiors is incredibly wrong" And of course, there is a war going on. Putting someone with a good tactical mind like Ahsoka in time out for a month for not following orders would be a detriment. The situation Ahsoka has to endure from her recklessness is considered punishment enough, and she does grow.
@@cgkase6210 "it leads her to jumping the gun like they do sometimes, leading to situations where she's in danger" Yes, in danger, but never harmed. Anakin lost his hand because he recklessly/overconfidently ran into a fight against Dooku. What has Ahsoka ever lost? Nothing. Getting a gentle scolding once or twice is not sufficient/meaningful consequences for the way she behaves.
Given what Anakin and Obi-Wan have experienced due to their own attitudes, they should have a lot of motivation to teach Ahsoka to do better.
And yes, there IS a war going on. That's why her behaviour in Storm Over Ryloth (which lead to the destruction of so many men and resources) should have been the end of her military career. One supposedly "good tactical mind" is not worth it if her ego causes so many losses. But instead she is babied and rewarded after that disaster, another sign of her Mary Sueness.
In regard to her growing... you may be interested in this Case Study series on Ahsoka's character growth. Each video goes over some of her characteristics to see where she grew and where she didn't:
ruclips.net/video/LxqRA7TUr3o/видео.html
Once again, I'm reminded that few know this trope as well as you do, LitDev.
Great job as always!
Thanks! Glad you like it
I'm upset it took this long to get a technical video out. I can forgive you based on quality and length 😁
I stumbled into one of your videos, I think it was Why Rey is a Mary Sue and Luke isn't. I had just gotten done with an argument with someone on Reddit i think defending Luke from that status. Everything you said was backing me up and i totally felt vindicated and instantly subbed. It's been a while since you're latest video since then, but with how you've made your case each time, i'll wait however long it takes.
Before watching the video, my personal thoughts are that they can have flaws, so long as they don't hinder their perfectness. So for example, a character who has a short tempter can be a Mary sue if every time they snap, not only does it not hinder them or ruin something, but it ends up getting the bad guy to falter and end up loosing. Or, as a more simple example, if every time the clumsy character is clumsy, it reveals hidden secrets or ends up perfectly working out so the fight they're in is ended because they just so happened to fall and cut all the enemies' heads off. The only thing that I think really makes a Mary sue a Mary sue is what you explained in the luke vs rey video: the world must bend around them to maintain this level of perfectness. Their flaws must not be real flaws, only either superficial or beneficial
This opening question
I can hear the hatred
*_*laughs in Palpatine*_*
As someone writing a book myself, it's videos like this that keep my heroes on the straight and narrow, rather than the vaguely defined descent of the Mary Sue.
I remember reading this one fanfiction where the author was complaining about someone critiquing the protagonist, claiming that she had flaws like being hopeless with tech and afraid of water. However those flaws never actually gave her any sort of a hard time. She had another friend who was a tech genius and never seemed to have any issues with water. She was still an extremely overpowered character who was also completely unsympathetic due to her massive body count and how much she didn't care about everyone she killed. Anyone who doesn't love her a ton is irredeemably evil and deserves a fate worse than death. She also apparently has depression, schizophrenia and PTSD, but those never really come into play unless angst is needed. The author also tried to justify her 100s long power list by the fact she had a traumatic backstory (which in actuality is incredibly over the top).
This is an excellent birthday gift. Thank you Mr Devil
Happy birthday!
Well there are some characters that don't have "flaws" but are often not seen as Mary Sues due to the nature of their role in the plot take Goku, Sonic the Hedgehog, or Marty Mcfly(First Back to the Future) While these characters often struggled sometimes and had to put in effort, non of them had a flaw that really caused them to lose, the struggle is in maintaining their composure or character inspite of the world trying to make them drop it. They had personality defects but often they wouldn't have too much of an impact on the plot itself or at least very minimum impact.
It’s also about the kind of story being told. Star Wars is meant to be an epic action drama. Dragonball is an action comedy that openly rejoices in not taking itself seriously. You’re not going to have the same kind of story impact from the character flaws.
Goku does have serious flaws that cause problems in some arcs.
Your point still stands, though.
You forgot Marty's response to being called "chicken" which he finally overcomes in the street race?
@@HasekuraIsuna That was in the second and third film, in the first that flaw didn't exist.
I'm pretty sure all those characters have flaws.
Goku's flaw from Dragon Ball Z stems from his desires - specifically in fighting strong opponents. He 'let' Vetega go so he could fight him again in the future, he 'tried' to let Frieza go for the same reason, he was 'willing' to blast the Supreme Kai if he got jn the way of him fighting majin Vegeta. Heck, this continues in Dragon Ball Super what amounts to Goku's actions 'causing' the Tournament of Power arc to trigger off.
Someone will have to fill in for the other characters you listed. I don't know enough about Marty McFly, and regarding Sonic I only know that his flaw somehow involves responsiblity (or lack thereof).
Being a Mary Sue is a flaw =D
I wonder if the Devil covers about the Tom and Jerry live movie
Hey the Tutorial Demon has a nice voice. And good video as always.
I am glad that you pointed out that just because a character is a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu) that it doesn't mean they don't have flaws. It's just the flaws they have aren't a determent to their overall character or the story. Their flaw is like basically "Ow I stubbed my big toe on the table", yeah it sucks but it goes away. Now compare that with having a limb blown off? If it was a leg that means your mobility has become severely limited and it's nearly impossible to do things by yourself which also affects the people around you. If it was an arm, yeah you still have your leg mobility but your ability to carry things or even do things that require two hands becomes nearly impossible or extremely limited. This is why I cannot stand when people say "Oh Rey has flaws", but those flaws end up making her fail upwords.
You mentioned how Luke and Rey both are very impulsive, and that is true but I would like to add to what you said. Comparing The Last Jedi to the Empire Strikes Back here. When Rey in The Last Jedi was impulsive and fought against Luke, it ended up making him lose the fight. When Luke in The Empire Strikes Back where Yoda tells Luke not to go to Bespin as it would be a mistake, his impulsiveness gets the better of him and he gets blown the f-out by Darth Vader. Luke was no where near on equal footing to Vader as Vader merely toyed with Luke. In Return of the Jedi, Luke was able to stand against his father and yes he used his anger to overcome his father Anakin. In essence he almost made the same mistake Anakin did in Episode III but was able to reject Palpatine's words and I think that's because Palpatine was never a huge influence in Luke's life unlike Anakin. Rey in The Rise of Palpatine (I will not call it any different) finally lost her first fight, only to get right back up and act as if that loss met diddly squat and was able to redeem Ben Solo even though they barely knew each other and Rey defeats the strongest Dark Lord of the Sith since Sidious's master by herself by using an already used plot device in Dark Empire. But Kathleen Kennedy said there was NO Star Wars lore to use......
Basically to summarize, there is a difference of showing why a character is awesome....and a character just "being awesome".
I don't have time for LD's live streams but I always enjoy the videos
I should have guessed that for this collaboration Literature Devil would seek out Tutorial Demon.
What I want to flesh out is essentially just a story where the Mary sue is the main antagonist. The common traits of a mary sue being directly implemented as her established abilities, like personality bending, the universe and fate bending to fit her needs (so tangible plot armor) and any instance of this being noticeable by those in universe, "innate awesomeness," and lack of traits that hinder her goals.
So, the story centers around the idea of how do you overcome nearly insurmountable odds, while having your own odds stacked against you? How do you defeat an enemy with convenient plot armor when you are not provided with any?
I always enjoy hearing perfect characters complain what a burden their perfection is!
To me the most well utilized example of a mary sue in fiction is Erika Furudo from Umineko no naku koro ni. She has all the hallmarks; the mysterious backstory, being shoehorned into the plot, everyone loving her immediately, having ridiculous powers that perfectly fit the situation she's in, being super smart and competent, and even nearly ending up romantically with the main character. She's also a self-insert character in-universe.
The reason that she works so well is that she's a *villain* , not a hero. Her status as a typical mary sue is combined with a comedically psychotic personality. Her over the top hamminess combined with a textbook suite of mary sue characteristics ends up creating a fantastic antagonist who's both easy to hate and extremely entertaining. She's a hilarious parody of the trope while also mostly playing it straight, and actually feeling like a genuine threat as an antagonist.
Two of best chats best girl worked on this one.
Such a hater if women XD
Rey displayed that she's:
Easy to anger: Just being frustrated at not being powerful enough to hold a ship, gets angered and destroys it. She just knew how to do it, too.
Self adsorbed and selfish: She gets involved, more than once being forced to by the turn of events, just to feel connected.
These hallmarks of falling to the dark side, the mystical power that ALL JEDI'S FEAR since contrary to the light side, the dark side continuously seeks to draw you in. Anakin was trained, powerful, surrounded by people who loved him and still he fell. With no training, warnings of danger, simply goes nope, I'M BETTER than you...
She could of made a fantastic villain tho. As the story goes, she turns evil, and another character(FINN) has to step in and save the day.
seriously though, can we talk about Finn for a minute? Dude was literally the best character in the first sequel movie and they ditched him because "Rey needs more spotlight"
@@lucaswinsor4469 I was a fan when I saw him in the first, but then China got involved and they stopped using him.
I won't lie, I missed these kind of presentations and I am glad you uploaded this. Got this in before NXT came on.
Rey will forever be scarred as a character study for the wrong reasons.
been peeling over your videos a lot to improve my writing. It's been extremely helpful.
This describes the vast majority of female lead characters in pop culture over the past decade or 2.
I like that the video showed how to fix a marry sue character. Most videos these days just point the flaws, not the solutions which are a really important element.
Personally I think being goalless is an important part of a Mary Sue. Goals naturally cause conflict, and it is the lack of conflict from a flawless character that lessens the interest in the story, not the flawlessness itself. You could have a completely flawless character, but if they have the goal of being an astronaut there is all manner of conflict that can generate even if our potential astronaut has the most generically good personality ever conceived of.
Honey, new literature devil video!
You might say there's one other kind of "flaw" Mary Sues can have: the inconsistent flaw. You know, the flaw that is shown to be there and hinders the hero... until it suddenly doesn't for no good reason. For instant, the way that Rey seems overwhelmed and terrified when captured and struggling to use the mind trick to get out but unable to cool her head enough to do it... then suddenly, without warning or any reason, she's perfectly calm and collected and pulls the trick off perfectly. Or how she is strongly tempted by the dark side, both through the "belonging" and through rage at Kylo for his actions taking away someone who actually gave her a degree of bond and worth, and then suddenly that temptation is gone without any realization or reason. And that second one really demonstrates what's so tragic about these: executing the flaws shows just how much potential lies down that path, but failing to follow through throws you back to the most boring non-adventure possible. I've said since I saw the second movie that the story would've been brilliant if Rey and Kylo switched. Rey was showing all kinds of struggles with the Dark, and Kylo was showing signs of redemption; there could've been so much potential if Kylo abandoned Snoke and became a Jedi, while Rey joined or maybe killed Snoke and took over the Order. We could still have her become the hero eventually, but she'd be a fallen hero who needed the strength, resolve, courage and wisdom to climb back out of that pit. But instead she's struggling just for a few scenes and then suddenly she's 100% over it because of course she is.
This is a great breakdown of Mary Sue characters using Rey as the example. This provided some great food for thought on my own characters and whether I am connecting their flaws to the story well enough so that I am showing how these hurdles must be overcome for them to achieve their goals. Thank you for creating this video! I just happened to check your channel today. I can't believe I missed the notification!
My IRL name is Rey, so the entire segment talking about the Rey from Star Wars was surreal for me.
Some topics need to be covered more than once.
Especially when they are covered so well & from a fresh perspective! Well done!
56:36-56:40 That last quote you made at the end of the video is especially interesting. "The truly perfect character is only truly perfect when they are not perfect at all." Flat main characters such as Sonic, the Hedgehog, Mario, and Goku are the perfect characters of their retrospective franchises. Superman and batman is the perfect round characters of theirs as well. The Joker and Lex Luthor are the perfect arch-nemesis for the DC Heroes. Omni-man is the perfect twist villain in Invincible. And there are so many more examples of perfect characters. It truly is possible for a character to be perfect, but they cannot be perfect without real, dramatic flaws. Not fake and informed ones.
I used to defined perfection as any noun without any flaws what-so-ever. Completely flawless. In fact, that is still the textbook definition after looking it up, so I am still more or less right. I do not know if I should go back to defining the word this way seeing how confusing that is. I was just having doubts lately. However, videos about how characters are perfect in the world they set in made me realized that this is not necessarily the case. At least for fictional characters. They need flaws to be perfect for the stories they are in.
No one in real life is perfect, because we all have flaws. So fictional characters reflect that by processing real, dramatic flaws themselves. This in turn helps bring some stakes in the stories and become perfect to us. That is how art imitates life and become realistic themselves. I see it now and I will remember this quote for this comment it inspired me to make.
You managed to make Rey interesting.
1:59 Couldn't agree more with this choice of character to represent the Mary Sue XD
I’m kind of surprised no one has made a story about a character having to deal with everything always going right for them. It could be an interesting look at this trope.
As far as I'm aware, nobody has done that story exactly, mainly because it would be difficult to write a story where things are always going right for the main character while keeping it interesting. There are ways, but it's tricky.
There are a few stories in that general area, though.
There's the oft-mentioned One Punch Man, the protagonist of which has more or less unlimited power and can win every fight he's in with ease... and this has left him depressed and unfulfilled with his life.
And a couple shows have had one-off characters who are Mary Sues in skill level... and everybody hates them for how much better they are at everything, even things certain characters dedicate themselves to doing.
... I'll come back once I have better examples.
Ciaphas Cain works somewhat. Is is skilled but so abnormally lucky that it drives him to paranoia due to his imposters syndrome. He often puts on the face of a brave, competent commander but is in reality a coward who has both the worst luck (always forced into dangerous situations) and the best luck (always comes out on top in a way that makes him look more heroic than he really is).
Brei larson's miss marvel had a critical flaw of being unlikeable and about as emotive as a plank of wood. Less so even because I have seen a lot of emotion and character from wood.
Plank is far more expressive.
It would be a character flaw if it was written that some sort of serious consequences came from being a bitch. Such as if some ally spurns her because of her attitude, and that results in the death of someone that Captain Mary Sue cares about (Monica Rambo, or maybe Monica's daughter).
It would be a flaw if it caused some Consequences or even if any of the Characters acknowledged it but they didn't
On the contrary she's called out for being too emotional and too soft by the Kree and people insta like her for some reason even though she's clearly a Bitch
Regarding how Rey beats up Luke Skywalker, I'm gonna throw this point out there.
Luke wasn't really fighting all that hard. She got cranky and started whipping a stick at him, and he pretty much effortlessly repelled her at first. Then she went from 1 to 100 by whipping out a lightsaber while he was still using a stick himself. Imagine you're babysitting, and the child you're watching has a tantrum and starts to attack you. You take defensive measures at first, meant to just let them tire themselves out, and it's working as you intend, until suddenly the child whips out a pistol and points it at you. That's pretty much what happened when Rey "beat Luke up." I refuse to let that be counted as a legitimate victory for her for that reason.
The rest of the criticism of her is pretty valid, though.
"gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky!"
i instantly paused on sheer refex and had to take a lap and a drink before i could continue.
It took 14:50 minutes to get to Rey, man LD thats what i call self control
Spoilers for Rise of Skywalker if anyone cares:
When you got to talking about mary sues doing something wrong but never having any consequences, the first thing I thought of was that scene from Rise of Skywalker when Rey was playing Force tug-of-war with Kylo over the transport ship carrying the imprisoned Chewbacca, only to have a "moment of weakness" where she gets angry enough to *accidentally vaporize the ship with Force Lightning*.
Not only did her "moment of weakness" only serve to make her seem even more powerful than she already was, but it also had no lasting consequences because it turns out Chewbacca wasn't even on that ship she blew up after all.
Ran into someone claiming that Anakin was a Mary Sue just because he took out the Trade Federation almost single handedly in the Phantom Menace and of course was spouting the typical "you just hate women lead characters" nonsense. I pointed out that Anakin in the Phantom Menace was considered the worst parts of that movie and that the later movies proved that he wasn't a Mary Sue because of how his arrogance and anger caused him to commit acts that had consequences for him and those around him. The also tried to bring up Luke destroying the Death Star as an example despite the fact that without his training and Obi-Wan's guidance, he wouldn't have been able to make that shot.
Phantom menace Anakin can't be a Mary Sue because he needs to be protected but he's fairly close
Older Anakin though definitely isn't one actually he's the furthest you can get
Yep Anakin destroying the Trade Federation Droid Control Ship wouldn't have happened without R2-D2 and the auto-pilot and the destruction was mostly because of the design of the ship itself. Ditto with Luke if someone who didn't use a targeting computer also makes the shot at the right time, they would have succeeded at destroying the Death Star.
Another thing MS have to do is constantly go around reminding the audience about how imperfect and inadequate they are. This would be a prime example of a fake flaw: MS thinks they are nothihng special and always says it, but they are in fact aweseome and good at everything.
That girl from Star Trek: Lower Decks(straight up don't remember her name) doesn't work. To me, its because while I have no trouble believing she has more experience than the new guy who just joined, it becomes bad writing when that turns into "Hey! I've seen everything, you haven't, now listen to me!"
Anime character's flaws be like: Ehhehe, I suck at cooking. Silly me!
I have been waiting.
I love how you keep harping Beckett Mariner from Lower Decks.. despite I have grown to enjoy the series. I still am a hold out on Mariner's worth on the show... her annoying defiance is what bugs me most about her than her supposed Mary Sue-ness... when she actually is not trying to act rebellious against everyone, I don't mind her as much... and enjoy it when she's actually working as a member of the team and being a good friend to Boimler.
Personally I find flaws in a character to be one of the best parts of writing one. That's when your character becomes truly interesting. I don't believe these writers will improve if they find the process tedious or only use unimportant flaws that mean nothing.
I can say an issue or flaws that Mary Sues can have, that I have seen that happens a lot in bad writing is a Mary Sue is boring in terms of personality or they're just mean, like for no reason. I think if a Mary Sue is around that has a good personality then it could work. But it seems that some people think strength = good character. Also when Mary or Gary Stu's have obvious personality flaws that's ignored by a creator can also be bad writing. Like a Mary Stu having a type A personality or being a perfectionists can be a flaw, not knowing how to rely on others, etc.
Good to see the Literature Devil again.
Ah if it isnt my favorite channel that teaches me how not to fail at writing. Yet another wonderful video you have produced for us today
I love amongus memes. Thanks
No problem. I just thought it fit well considering the topic lol
So character traits are also very narrative-sensitive and can be a strength or a dramatic flaw in the context of a story (which must be well-written in the first place).
As a mere part of an audience, I can only think of one basic example of a character trait that was a strength on one story but a flaw on the other. Star-Lord's impulsiveness/familial love. It saved his and everyone's ass from Ego on GOTG2, but pretty much doomed everyone, rather infamously, in Infinity War.
And so, it all falls into writing skill.
To add to the Bruce Lee quote, a quote from a fictional martial artist:
"Master the basics and you've mastered it all."
Great video, demon.