I think the discussion in the last third is something that's been really underrepresented in the media, and I'm really interested to hear how many people actually knew about it tbh 😅 Also thank you for watching! I hope you guys enjoyed it😁
The idea that the Volume is "in camera" is more beneficial for real-time interactive lighting and reflections. I'm really glad you explained how it's not just "filming the LED wall". It's also not entirely disconnected from the erasure of VFX work with "invisible" VFX. This stuff doesn't just happen by itself in the room. It downplays the level of post involved. Ironically, it takes a *massive* amount of *very high quality* VFX to make it look like there is no VFX. I like to think people will become more discerning in their tastes because creators like you have raised the point. It's much needed and too rarely discussed. Wonderful explanations all around.
Thank you so much for addressing the volume. I always thought scenes filmed with the volume were really flat and boring. I think you can really tell a good story by the lighting alone, and that just gets lost in there. Although there are good examples as you said, the batman is amazing with this
I watched a similar video about Pirates of the Caribbean and their incredible CGI, and ultimately, it seems that the difference is those amazing movies didn't rush their CGI artists. Sure, there are things that directors and studios could do to help make their shots more immersive, but the issue with most bad CGI is that the artists were rushed and had to meet a deadline while being paid a pittance.
This is an excellent point to bring up. I think one of the real issues that has been cropping up in a lot of recent high-profile movies (and not just in Disney and WB, but all over the place) has been a widespread epidemic of poorly organized and managed production pipelines filled with late game changes, reshoots, and adjustments. These things play absolute havoc with even the very best VFX crews' abilities to actually do their jobs properly. The poor artists don't have time to worry about if the shot is actually framed well because they're so often overwhelmed just making sure that at least the most critical VFX elements aren't completely bugging out due to all the reshoots they're trying to splice together. One can rather easily compare the LOTR trilogy, which had a very lengthy and carefully organized preproduction period, to the tumultuous preproduction of the Hobbit trilogy to see what a difference good production pipeline organization can make. And that was one of the lucky few to (relatively) survive the rough waters in one piece. The recent "Cats" movie had an infamously poorly managed production from a director who had no knowledge or experience with VFX work, and it was a disaster. The results are films that look so much cheaper than their obscene budgets would indicate. It's ironic and unfortunate that many of these could have probably been both better looking and much cheaper if they had just been organized better. Tron Legacy might have had challenges due to the writer's strike, but at least the crew appears to have used the time to actually block out their storyboards and shot lists properly to work with the script they would eventually go with.@@Sound_Tech
There's a fairly decent 4K upscale with HDR grading by Tekno3D. It's by no means a replacement for an official 4K HDR release but it's better than what we had. Source: ruclips.net/video/Qs5gMl4NEWY/видео.html
I actually wouldn't be minding a continuation either 🤔 Ya kno... Seeing how Corra copes with living outside the System, them eventually going back for reasons, etc...
@@RingoLoadagain I didn't mean this one in particular but overall people don't take in to account how much a sound track impacted the quality of a movie. I'm probably not expressing myself right, English isn't my first language.
I think Tron Legacy wasn't that great as a movie in regards to story and characterization, but it was his first actual movie after a few commercials (go look at Halo 3 Starry Night, it's great), straight to a big budget sequel to one of the most famous movies in scifi history. His style is unrivalled, even by Denis Villeneuve who tends to have an excellent atmosphere in his movies, and I'm looking forward to his F1 movie hoping that will look great too
I literally been saying this director is great since the release of Tron. I didn't know anyone else who watched Only the Brave or even know if anyone here remembers the Gears of War trailer he directed....
I won't lie. I clicked this soley because I adore this film, and I'm always glad to see it get praise. It is truly one of the most unique-looking films, and I can't understand why it doesn't get more attention. And on top of everything else it excels at, beyond its visuals, it's an engaging story---grounded and human.
I literally clicked thinking he was about to talk about the sequel to Legacy or somethn 😅. But the visual style of this movie was clean AF I hope the movie got an award for cinematography!!
I completely agree! I rewatched it a few days ago (for maybe the 6th time) and it was just as compelling and beautiful as when I first saw it. One of the best uses of 3D as well, which rarely happens anymore.
I absolutely loved Tron: Legacy. It captured what the world of tron would’ve looked like if they had our current technology in 1982. And you can clearly tell it wasn’t just MADE but CREATED with a vision.
I think a problem with a lot of movies today is how they don't utilize dramatic lighting at all. Most shots have everything more or less exposed evenly. No dramatic highlights, and shadows smoothly lit like some bad HDR photo from 2005. This was not the case in Tron Legacy, there even in the virtual world.
Tron has some of the most dynamic lighting of any modern movie. Every scene on the Grid is dark, it’s the nature of the environment. Most of your visual cues are the neon lights and shapes giving structure to the darkness. It is a visual masterpiece and stretched the limit on how far the lights and darks can be separated in every single shot.
which is a huge shame because a large reason the volume was praised early on, was that it allowed appropriate lighting to a scene or environment, rather than the flat lighting used for green/bluscreen, where too strong a lighting would create color spill or be inconsistent with the final background lighting choices... forcing that choice early and on the LED set should have resulted in better planning while the real time videogame engine would have facilitated previsualisation and iterative testing.
I don't know what the specifications of the screens used in the volume are, but they probably don't have super high dynamic range leaving them unable to reach the brightness required for highlights, which results in an even brightness across the scene. They also only ever list LED as the screen type, so I doubt the black are very good either.
@@azrielsatan8693 of absolutely, but nothing prevents people using the volume to add traditional light projectors. it would only be an issue if the light source ends up in the camera's field of view, so basically only if you want to do a very harsh backlighting. And evven then it seems to work ok, that's basically what the batman used the volume for anyway.
The Volume also can't generate directional light sources, only the illusion of them, so by default it will only illuminate a scene as if a giant diffuser is being used limiting the possibility of highlights on actors at all. Unless they create a robotically controlled key-lights that tracks with the screen's content... @@azrielsatan8693
@@tanikaze7697 Ive always felt like the other films we got in 2010 like Inception, Toy story 3, Deathly hallows pt1, latest Narnia and such, steered the mass away from tron.
@JohnnyRocker023 it was actually a box office hit making $400 million worldwide, which may not have been what Disney were hoping for, but the movie cost around $140 million I think before marketing. So it definitely doubled its money and that's not taking in the home media sales, which were quite impressive from what I recall.
I think this depends a lot on the director's vision. Many of the directors of Marvel films aren't very "visual" and prefer to leave that up to other people on the team (James Gunn is a good exception), and this is not inherently a problem when everything is well alligned (and honestly I forgive ugly visuals if the script and acting are good). The problem with many blockbusters is that there is not much respect for the artistic process because the priority is to create a product to sell without taking risks. Obviously every movie wants money, especially one with a big production value, but respect for artistic vision is also important to make an impact on people and build a legacy, which also translates into money
its not on the director a movie looks the way it does but rather the cinematographer and the cinematographers marvel hires nowadays get little to no creative control as they make their schedules so tight that they have to film everything in such little time
Whats does a director do if not direct what gets seen in film? Good directors have absolute control over every bit of the image, think Burton or Tarantino just to say names. Otherwise, what is the detector doing while directing a film?
@rusoxelruso It depends, there are films that are not visually impressive but have an amazing script, performances and editing, which are things that also need good direction, like Anatomy of a Fall for example. A good cinematography and production design, before being pretty, needs to serve the story
It's not just the visuals of Tron Legacy that are such a big part of this films' success, but the music too. As soon as I saw it on the big screen I wanted the soundtrack, as the minimalist score by Daft Punk perfectly reflects the linear, minimalist visuals. Brilliant connection of the two makes the whole thing even more impactful.
This is actually a thing I notice in the art world in general all the time. People are excellent at drawing designing EITHER characters OR environments in seclusion. It's always "poses", either a doll posed or a miniature readied. That's how most concept art and illustrations look and... It's quite boring. But the moment you have to design character IN an environment, doing something, interacting... Suddenly it becomes extremely difficult. Hence why you rarely see concept art like that. Only the true professionals seem to be able to do this consistently, where they can draw a FULL concept, not just elements of it. But most of the time, the best you get is a guy with a stick standing on a hill, looking into the grand vista... The Adventures of the Sticksalesman.
When this film came out, i was laughed at by film academics (lecturers and students) for my love and importance of this film! It is nice to see over 10 years later that not only was i right, but also happy to see the love this film deserves. As for CGI films, there has never been one either shot or made better imo because they miss the core design that the world comes first before the action and filming. Amazing video btw
I have a friend who didn’t like it… I told him to re-watch it and to focus specifically on the cinematography and Sfx/music, he then appreciated it for how well it was put together. I agree with you, it was a big leap in how movies could look
I mean, it's a gorgeous movie, enough so that I got it on Blu-Ray, but the dialogue is a bit leaden, and most importantly the lead actor (Garrett Hedlund) was dead weight. Everyone else in the cast was blowing him out of the water in practically every scene. The AI characters had more emotion & inner life than the actual human we were following through the story. That was it's big problem to me.
@@WhiskyCanuckThere are a lot of valid criticisms to be laid at this movie, but the visual look cinematography, sfx and music (Daft Punk 🤘🏼) are all absolutely stellar.
Completely agree. I like some movies a lot that are "bad", but when someone tells me they don't like this film I'm completely baffled as to why. It's amazing.
i have done the same because my background started in photography, its why its one of my favourite films as its a sensory treat that no film really comes close too. @@HannahFortalezza
Tron, not being a terribly popular movie, was really fun to watch and I'm glad that every now and then a video pops up referencing it in a positive way.
Thank you for saying that the problem is purely the execution. People are quick to hate CGI nowadays, they blame almost everything on it, it's so unfair. VFX is an art form deserving of respect and admiration, when it sucks it's almost always because the artists aren't given enough time and to top it all off they are often underpaid. Oh and most stories are terrible lately
You’re absolutely right on every level. I’d just add one extra difference. Quality storyboarding. Modern movies are either lacking in good storyboard artists who would, by their nature, ensure that virtually every shot would be dramatic and contain all of these three key features you covered. Or… the director, director of photography, or VFX teams undermined, ignored, or strayed from our wise amazing storyboards to fit their own preferred vision, technological limitations, or to accommodate the “location”… or lack thereof as in the volume set.
I think this movie was also a solid example of the "right" way to do 3D. Any big uses of it were for depth (like when the camera's passing over the massive array of soldier programs) moreso than for pop (like, say, Friday the 13th part 3). Instead of trying to jump out and grab you, thereby calling attention to itself and possibly knocking you out of the scene, it just opens up and allows you to sink deeper into it.
The Mandalorian went to great effort to integrate and conceal the Volume into a physical set, compared to Obi Wan and Ashoka which used it as a substitute for physical sets.
I noticed that! I couldn't place my finger on what made Obi-Wan different than Mandalorian effects wise, because I knew they used the same sets. The best I could come up with was "The Mandalorian directors understood the limits and the advantages of the Volume, while Obi-Wan just used it as a normal set." It's just so frustrating to see directors use their tools around them in the most basic senses without understanding the art to them.
Always glad to see more people appreciating this great film. Crazy to think the best thing modern disney ever made is basically the only thing that never got a sequel. And it might not be visual, but its also worth noting how absolutely perfect the sound design in this film is.
The REAL reason for the huge difference in cinematography is the following of just three very simple steps: 1) Write the movie before you begin making it. 2) Give the VFX team the detailed, annotated and complete list of shots to deliver. 3) Do not speak to, "check in with", annoy or even *think* about changing even the tiniest aspect of the package given to the VFX team. That is *literally* it. That's the magic. The fact that to the general public step one seems like the most obvious and barest minimum needed before begining to start filming on projects with budgets allocated in the hundreds of millions shouldn't be funny to those with experience inside the studio system. The fact that expecting to have even one of the steps when filming projects with budgets in the hundreds of millions is *utterly hilarious* to those with experience inside the studio system should be horrifying to the general public.
2 only works if VFX starts after the movie has been fully edited and locked, otherwise you get the marvel problem where they have animatics of all the big CGI moments before they film and there’s no room for spontaneaty
@@WhiskyCanuck worldbuilding started and was finished before they began filming, the visual design process is also part of the script. If it is not taken into account you can end up in the Boredomlands that defined most of the MultiDisnyverse
Recent movies with good cinematography include Denis Villeneuve works, Arrival, Blade Runner 2049 and Dune all include the elements you mentioned, and I would add masterful usage of color. George Miller's Mad Max Fury Road is also perfect in this sense. Ben Stiller's series Severance also has that Kubrick-like aesthetic and cinematography (and perfect frames !). More generally Zhang Yimou makes perfect pictures - most of the time - also with everything from leading lines to probably the most interesting usage of color in all of cinema history. Oh and I must also mention Wes Anderson, whose visuals are actually his signature, also with incredible framing, attention to detail, and everything perfect in each picture.
This movie just bombarded every facehole with quality. The visuals and sound-design/music are just so mind-blendingly amazing. I always was, and still am, completely dumbfounded how anyone could say this movie wasn't amazing.
No wonder! I was actually about to comment that I think oblivion is an example of a good use of a volume stage, the way they built the set inside of it to make it feel like tom cruise and his sky house were really perched in the sky. In each of Kosinski's movies he achieves such a cool and unique aesthetic, as a kid I was so obsessed with Tron 2 and Oblivion they both captured such a vibe, the way those movies looked and felt watching them made me want to watch them over and over again, I never even knew he was the one who made both of those movies! ... My favourite movie of all time is Speed Racer.
I have zero trust that Disney would be able to do a Tron 3 that would be even remotely decent. Mostly because of all the reasons stated in the video. They would try to imitate Legacy but I don't believe they would fundamentally understand or care what made the visual so impressive.
@@byucatch22 D'you know what gives me a TINIEST glimmer of hope? Riding the TRON: Lightcycle/Run ride at WDW. Easily THE pinnacle experience of my late adult life (barring my wedding and the birth of my children). The entrance into the ride, meaning the entire time your standing waiting in line for nearly an hour, is spent bringing you INSIDE the LEGACY environment. And it's AWESOME.
Something to also keep in mind, is the contrast dynamic between very sharp and very blurry cgi. Usually blurry cgi is used to mask bad cgi, as an easy form of blending vfx with actual camera shots and props. You see this in all modern Marvel movies and similar productions, so much haze and blur on a lot of effects, environments, backdrops, etc - and at the same time also a lot of things fighting for attention yet hardly anything stands out very clearly with sharp contrasts and focus. Tron does this exceptionally well, also aided by its artistic choices. Anything in attention is sharp as a razor's edge, almost nothing is blurred out to mask vfx-to-prop transition. The light and darkness values are contrasting to pull your eye on the details in a 70-20-10 format - being 70% general frame, 20% support to the frame, and 10% high-focus and high attention visual details that just pull your attention in like a magnet, and lets your mind rest and see very clearly what the director wants you to see and pay attention to. Take any Marvel movie for comparison and pick any random frame - for example 12:02, and just look at that scene. The obvious vfx is all a bit hazy and blurred, nothing stands out as sharp as the props/actors. Everything and everyone appear of equal importance, there is no 70-20-10 rule applied - basically all of this is just one collective unit. Where is our focus supposed to be? On Thor? On Zeus? On the guards and ladies behind? The only thing we have to go off of, is what the actors are doing, but visually speaking they're just one big blob of visual nothingness. There are a lot of well made details and elements, but none of them get the space and focus to truly shine and stand out. They are all screaming for our eyes to look at them, yet nothing is in focus. Nothing is sharp, nothing is dynamic, nothing is leading our eyes. And that golden haze glow on everything just washes out the frame to even further distance our focus from what's being shown. This is bad cgi direction.
I loved Tron Legacy when I was a kid, I didn't know why but it was just so satisfying for the eyes; a perfect world and a really clean experience where everything that happened on screen was perfectly clear! This video was very interesting!
I loved TRON: Legacy the first time I watched it and that love has only grown with every rewatch. It's an underrated masterpiece. Another movie I feel needs mentioning when it comes to the art of utilizing green screen and CGI effects to achieve a stellar aesthetic is Sin City. Much different style, of course, but it also made the most of the tech available and used it creatively rather than rely on it as a crutch or lazy solution.
Tron was my favorite movie as a kid and I still love it. It's probably the most underrated movie ever made! The fact that we are more amazed with movies that have been shot without CGI (or little) rather than the oversaturated VFX of other movies tells you something. Great video guys!
I always wondered why modern movies with the insane level of detail and realism could tend to still have that "green screen effect", even though there were no apparent green lines around obviously cut-out areas. This is something I never even considered and was awesome to learn about, I'll definitely be thinking about this in future films I watch.
_Tron: Legacy_ is one of the most underrated films of all time _Tron: Uprising_ is also one of the most underrated TV shows of all time Sadly, Uprising was the last time Disney touched the ip back in 2012. And I doubt a reboot would stay true to the source material.
You touched on an important point here, which is how early the visual development was nailed down for Tron. Digital Domain created a concept trailer for the movie, fully executed. Altho minimal, it had the fundamental aesthetics nailed down. That was a major part of the pitch that helped greenlight the film. It was later released by Disney as an official trailer in 2009
I think there is something to be said about shots in Ant Man and other Marvel Movies blatantly displaying where the green screen/other filming backgrounds ends or where the ceiling of the warehouse/shooting studio begins. Great video! Love Tron: Legacy!
@@jesustyronechrist2330 I disagree. It's a classic tale of betrayal between master and student in one of the most visually stunning environments ever created.
Randomly got recommended you videos, now im binging them. I dont even know anything about CGI, but your explanations are so easy to understand and entertaining, that I just want to watch more. Keep up the good work man, clearly your videos are popping off, deservedly so!
I liked this movie as a kid, haven't seen it since. A lot of people say its bad so I never rewatched as an adult.. But man, even if the story sucks, I need to just rewatch for the eye-candy. It still holds up.
I just rewatched this the other day. I have absolutely no idea why people didn't like Tron Legacy. I love the film, and I hate that it doesn't have another sequel yet.
there's something you didn't focus enough of on is that often the movies are often rewritten during even the cgi process which means reshoots and the CGI artists have even less time to make something look good whether it's the CGI it's self or putting a set in that screen room, CGI artists don't have enough time to do their jobs now and the problems stem from higher up and they trickle their way down
Tron Legacy was truly ahead of its time in my opinion. Though its a Disney owned IP and funded film, it really isn't a Disney movie. And I'm 100% certain that is the reason its more under-appreciated than it should be. 14 years later and its still my favorite looking movie of all time.
love this visuals on this movie, still hope this a 3rd movie, but people hated on legacy when it came out abit then last few years been acting like they loved this movie the entire time
The criticism on the volume , seems like a perfect example of unintended consequences causing a new set of problems that the volume didn't set out to fix, while barely fixing the problems that the new technology addresses
20:19 I believe the closest we have gotten to fulfilling all the three points has to be Loki's Season 1 and 2. The sets were almost all practically made (even along with the roofs, do see Marvel's Assembled ep), direction choices were well planned out and a massive sense of scale was pretty spot on. All the three points were almost a necessity for Loki to actually succeed as a D+ show.
As a novice student of film and production, i find videos like this extremely interesting and engaging. I think you would do very well offering some online classes on skill share. I look forward to perusing your YT library in the near future. Thanks!
I really enjoyed Tron Legacy, I feel like it got a lot of hate that it didn’t deserve. The cinematography, music, VFX, and style was amazing. The story and characters weren’t incredible, but still really fun and far more entertaining than 95% of the action/sci-if/hero stuff getting made today.
You really opened my eyes with this video. I realized that recently when watching these new marvel movies I had been wondering what I’m supposed to focus on. They aren’t using any great cinematic techniques anymore. The leading lines aspect is the biggest issue because without them you’re just watching a bunch of movement in front of your face.
The original was very revolutionary too. It was the first film to use 100% CGI environments, and it was also filmed in monochrome black, and then each film frame was physically hand panted.
It also helps Tron Legacy has such a robust and bold soundtrack. The world makes total sense within the music and everything flows. Modern Marvel movies just don't give a fuck and are so afraid of making bold choices with their soundtracks which means the picture and motivation of the world feels just as thin.
Tron Legacy also does a great job of keeping the camera steady and the environments clear of clutter so you can focus on the characters and the action. MCU just shakes the camera and prays there's enough jumpcuts to keep you distracted.
I think you could add the use of colour and lighting cues, which are very strong in TRON legacy. Ok so the baddies might not wear black hats and the goodies white hats (although there is some of that) but the use of different characters in different colours (e.g. the use of a 'threatening' orange colour), the darkness of some parts and the lightness of others, all contribute to the identification and feelings of threat and hope.
Greenscreening doesn't require post-production to manually cut everything out (that's the whole point of having a green background). If you are going to use an approximation of the final background but not the actual final background in the volume, then you have to manually mask out everything from the foreground in each individual frame (so that's why studios minimize foreground objects when using the volume but not when using a greenscreen)
I feel I learned a ton about cinematography from this video! I can usually tell when a movie has effective cinematography or not, but never *why*. This gives me way more to look out for and appreciate!
i think that also the very basic colors used in the film like gray and black compliment the CGI, where as with modern marvel uses colors that do not compliment the fx, causing them to look less real.
I reeeaally hope they make a sequel to this masterpiece!! Phenomenal world-building, beautiful story, stellar soundtrack..VERY under appreciated! Just hope the passionate filmmakers will come back and expand this world!!
I'd personally say the simplest way to explain it is that they didn't flinch. It's not a cyberpunk setting that's theoretically a simulation, it's constantly and visibly CG. No subtlety, no winking at the camera about how silly it is that we're in a simulation. They just do not flinch, and instead they lean in, and that makes all the difference.
I wonder if the volume is also why all the backgrounds got so blurry for the mahority of the movies, like you get 1 or 2 cgi panoramic shots, and then half an hour of out of focus backgrounds while the characters fuck around on a flat stage, its like theyre setting their dof to max when human eyes and minds were perfectly capable of focusing on the character or admiring the background whenever we wanted to
Glad you made this because I can never quite put my finger on why newer cgi legit looks worse than cgi from over a decade ago. This movie still looks good enough that it could come out today and not look dated whatsoever
Between this and your Davey Jones video you've earned a new subscriber, sir! Really enjoying the content, seems like you're actually knowledgeable about the craft of filmmaking rather than just talking out of your butt about something you have many opinions but few actual facts about, like many other RUclipsrs out there. So I appreciate that a lot. (Plus I always appreciate some TRON: Legacy love, that movie will always be underrated.)
The solution to the volume is to use it sparringly for slow and simple scenes, and use practical sets and classic green screen for the more complex scenes. And most importantly - love and passion for the art, rather than brult out a flick for the quick bjg and retaining of copyrights.
@@Appletank8 true, but you're still restricted by the floor area of the volume. With blue/greenscreen you can make the area as large as a building, or shoot out in an actual field with green screen obscuring just some object of interest. Its generally more versatile.
its crazy how trons vfx still holds up in so many ways, not perfect ofc in some way its definitely shows its age, but theres so much character to it. Makes me sad that disney doesn't seem to care for those kinds of movies anymore
As someone who’s gone through animation school and done a bachelor’s and honours, this video really warms my heart because TRON Legacy is using what we REALLY had to learn and understand in our courses. Leading lines, framing how scale works in comparison to character and setting, shape language - these are fundamentals of storyboarding and concept design! TRON Legacy is a good live-action/CGI film with live action actors because it EMBRACED being animated FIRST. I’m reminded of a Steven Spielberg interview where he said that every film director should learn to animate first, because it teaches people how to visualise the shots in their heads. And though it was architecture and not animation, Joseph Kozinzki absolutely knocked it out the park with this one. It’s clearly BECAUSE of his architecture sensibilities that we get physical sets working INTO these three principles combined with the CGI ADDING (not replacing, adding!) to the locations are what made Kozinzki and Co’s visuals absolute BANGER. Major props!
Tracked floating green within the frustum - especially 48 alternate frame will help with good looking composites without lengthy roto. However you still need to solve bad time management. Photo realistic finished virtual sets require time, money and a team with great communication - all before the shooting day. While traditional post can go over budget and time and "fix it later".
It's funny that Marvel and Star Wars - at least recently - have been produced by Disney and the world of Tron: Legacy was too!! Honestly love Legacy, will always love it. Hoping for TR3N to look just as good as Legacy did, they can't destroy another masterpiece
This comment might get lost, but I'm a film student and I discovered your channel recently. I think you've done a great job in synthesizing the crazy pipeline and techniques used in the film world. VFX artists are usually overworked and underpaid with little creative freedom, it's amazing to see people shining light on what's really happening. Loving your content, keep it up 😻
Tron Legacy is one of my favorite movies for your reasons mentioned. It might not have the best dialogue on the planet and the story might have been predictable, but it pulled you in so deep. Especially when Clu finds the secret apartment and it's just silence as they explore these new objects. Legit amazing cinematography.
Well done, I appreciate well thought out and executed work like this and on this topic of Tron! Nice! The cinematic feel is also due to great storyboarding, it helps predict labor and hours, justifying expensive setups or shots, this is where decisions are made early in production to help a smaller budget movie like Tron, in comparison to most Marvel movies, this constraint helps with a smaller budget, because someone with an eye for cinematography has laid it down visually, made it work in a small square as a penciled out idea, if it ant broke dont fix it. I'm giving the comparison of how most of the Marvel movies are shot , because of the examples you have running, on a marvel production there is no 100% dedication to any shots being locked down incase something needs to change due to story and so on. A big budget can be more of a problem. One thing about the video light wall studio / volume, which was used in the latest Batman as your example shows in your video of the sunset sequence at the end, that alone took 17 or more weeks to create the interactive 3D environment, that is to much forethought and dedication for the Marvel movies. It is better to have final looks and modeling in the volume for matting edges and its cost efficiency. You are absolutely correct about overselling the capabilities of tech, often visual problems are corrected by hand, per frame, that is a big talk on its own, or video. A major problem is that artists are sometimes difficult to work with, so instead of working with unhinged experience that brings value to a shot, sometimes its sacrificed to rather deal with an inexperienced compliant person or a list of rules to comply. The flaws showing through are bad planning, no confidence, in product or people, the wrong people take the credit and cant re- deliver. Art remains art at 5% inspiration, 95% work and all logistics, art is over glorified sometimes, because it is hard work and hard thinking that gets it done, in comparison again, show me one executive whom claims credit for there film, there acquisition of the product, by working with no sleep, gets there hands literally dirty, understands human behavior. People make the vision real, also the money that pays them, but dose the money really need to take a bow after claiming back a few billion.
One of my top movies of all time. It's the only movie I've seen in theaters 4 times. As a 13 year old who loved sci-fi and electronic music, this movie was world-changing for me when it came out. Even now, 14 years later, I can't get over how cool this movie is from start to finish. Simply amazing.
I saw it in IMAX 3D opening night and it was one of the few real 3D releases around that time that actually blew my mind. The only others I had such a strong reaction to in theaters was Watchmen 3D and Avatar 3D. I only regret not seeing Hugo 3D considering it was a Scorcese movie shot in 3D and I missed it!
The difference between Tron or even the Star Wars prequals and the stuff coming out of Marvel/Lucasfilm, is the backgrounds are planned. If there is a building, then that building needs a purpose. Antman is in a world of blobs and rocks, Thor was in a building of arches
The CGI of Tron Legacy is still among the best in the industry mostly because it is very streamlined and geared towards fitting into the world they are supposed to visualize. To keep long speech short, it looks elegant AF. :D
This video is absolute spot on!! I had this exact same complaint with recent Marvel projects where they had that look as if they were all filmed in front of green screen and evening else was added in later. I’m glad that you have put all those in actual technical terms. Additionally, a shout out to Tron Legacy was cherry on top!! I absolutely loved that movie. I was shocked to learn years later that it was a flop!! I think because of this video, I’ve achieved inner piece now 😌😌
i think the main problem in modern mainstream movies who abuses CGI (mainly superhero movies), is that they saturate the screen with tons of stuff , the visual language of those movies is the equivalent of somebody rambling and screaming endlessly, just noise filler, you cant have focus in the important elements of storytelling if the background is a constant stream of infinite universes exploding while invaded by a million alien insects shooting lasers...for 120 minutes. it is not a problem of the CGI artists, but the lack of an skilled Director of photography and Director (maybe an editor), I guess that happens when the studio execs are the main creative force behind the movies. remember, "brevity (hence moderation) is the soul of wit" .
I love how this starts but its maddening that your not talking about the heavy use of locations in Andor or some of the really inventive ship lighting work, Fetts Fire spray for instance. A previously impossible execution.
One thing that always impressed me was that most of the light up suits were practical effects. Too many costumes these days in superhero films are edited with CGI but the ones in Tron Legacy were real. It was hard to get the lights flexible enough to work in clothes, and they used up so much power that they had to be switched off the moment a take ended, but they provided for a really cool effect hardly any other movie comes close to.
This is a really great breakdown of why a lot of big budget movies look so bad now. The actors feel disconnected from the background a lot of the time. Tron Legacy, for all its flaws, was masterful in how it used The Grid to enhance the story.
i'm not sure you mentioned it, but actually "Andor" cannot be grouped with the same hot mess that are CGI craptastic SW and Marvel. "Andor" .. AFAIK it did not use The Volume and it shows...it's masterfully shot. But as you mentioned, The Volume cannot be really blamed for the mess...after all, it's just a tool...and if the director/cinematographer has no creative vision, even the most advanced filmmaking tools cannot hide that weakness.
I do honestly love how you put the problematically somewhat uncanny Clu onscreen when you said "which one I'd rather watch" but it's not like I disagree. Just funny because people point out the face so often as an issue.
I think the discussion in the last third is something that's been really underrepresented in the media, and I'm really interested to hear how many people actually knew about it tbh 😅
Also thank you for watching! I hope you guys enjoyed it😁
The idea that the Volume is "in camera" is more beneficial for real-time interactive lighting and reflections. I'm really glad you explained how it's not just "filming the LED wall". It's also not entirely disconnected from the erasure of VFX work with "invisible" VFX. This stuff doesn't just happen by itself in the room. It downplays the level of post involved. Ironically, it takes a *massive* amount of *very high quality* VFX to make it look like there is no VFX. I like to think people will become more discerning in their tastes because creators like you have raised the point. It's much needed and too rarely discussed. Wonderful explanations all around.
Thank you so much for addressing the volume. I always thought scenes filmed with the volume were really flat and boring. I think you can really tell a good story by the lighting alone, and that just gets lost in there. Although there are good examples as you said, the batman is amazing with this
I watched a similar video about Pirates of the Caribbean and their incredible CGI, and ultimately, it seems that the difference is those amazing movies didn't rush their CGI artists. Sure, there are things that directors and studios could do to help make their shots more immersive, but the issue with most bad CGI is that the artists were rushed and had to meet a deadline while being paid a pittance.
This is an excellent point to bring up. I think one of the real issues that has been cropping up in a lot of recent high-profile movies (and not just in Disney and WB, but all over the place) has been a widespread epidemic of poorly organized and managed production pipelines filled with late game changes, reshoots, and adjustments. These things play absolute havoc with even the very best VFX crews' abilities to actually do their jobs properly. The poor artists don't have time to worry about if the shot is actually framed well because they're so often overwhelmed just making sure that at least the most critical VFX elements aren't completely bugging out due to all the reshoots they're trying to splice together. One can rather easily compare the LOTR trilogy, which had a very lengthy and carefully organized preproduction period, to the tumultuous preproduction of the Hobbit trilogy to see what a difference good production pipeline organization can make. And that was one of the lucky few to (relatively) survive the rough waters in one piece. The recent "Cats" movie had an infamously poorly managed production from a director who had no knowledge or experience with VFX work, and it was a disaster. The results are films that look so much cheaper than their obscene budgets would indicate. It's ironic and unfortunate that many of these could have probably been both better looking and much cheaper if they had just been organized better. Tron Legacy might have had challenges due to the writer's strike, but at least the crew appears to have used the time to actually block out their storyboards and shot lists properly to work with the script they would eventually go with.@@Sound_Tech
Tron looks like a 2000s music video
This movie deserves a 4K Remaster on Blu-ray and an IMAX RE-RELEASE
There's a fairly decent 4K upscale with HDR grading by Tekno3D. It's by no means a replacement for an official 4K HDR release but it's better than what we had.
Source: ruclips.net/video/Qs5gMl4NEWY/видео.html
Watched a re-release in IMAX on its anniversary and it was just as good as you'd imagine. Best movie experience of that year
A High Frame Rate 3D version would work well for this movie.
There's upscaled versions of it on the internet and it looks fantastic in my opinion
I actually wouldn't be minding a continuation either 🤔 Ya kno... Seeing how Corra copes with living outside the System, them eventually going back for reasons, etc...
Lets not forget the top tier sound track that takes this movie to another level and is so often underappreciated by critics in so many movies.
I don't think it was under appreciated. When this released, even it's biggest critics would always mention how good the soundtrack was.
@@RingoLoadagain I didn't mean this one in particular but overall people don't take in to account how much a sound track impacted the quality of a movie.
I'm probably not expressing myself right, English isn't my first language.
No I understand you clearly! And I agree. Some soundtracks really elevate a film to a masterpiece.@@DEML91
@@RingoLoadagainTrue. The only place where it lacked was having a tighter story. The entire movie, otherwise, was a piece of art.
Daft Punk are the GOATs
Joseph Kozinski doesn't get enough credit for how fantastic of a director he is. Both Tron: Legacy and Oblivion were amazing.
I 100% agree with you!
Lets not forget Top Gun: maverick, a masterpiece
@@joshtor29 No doubt about Maverick. I only mention Tron and Oblivion because his unique visual sense is more apparent in those two movies.
I think Tron Legacy wasn't that great as a movie in regards to story and characterization, but it was his first actual movie after a few commercials (go look at Halo 3 Starry Night, it's great), straight to a big budget sequel to one of the most famous movies in scifi history. His style is unrivalled, even by Denis Villeneuve who tends to have an excellent atmosphere in his movies, and I'm looking forward to his F1 movie hoping that will look great too
I literally been saying this director is great since the release of Tron. I didn't know anyone else who watched Only the Brave or even know if anyone here remembers the Gears of War trailer he directed....
I won't lie. I clicked this soley because I adore this film, and I'm always glad to see it get praise. It is truly one of the most unique-looking films, and I can't understand why it doesn't get more attention. And on top of everything else it excels at, beyond its visuals, it's an engaging story---grounded and human.
I literally clicked thinking he was about to talk about the sequel to Legacy or somethn 😅. But the visual style of this movie was clean AF I hope the movie got an award for cinematography!!
more than that, it was actively hated by many. I've never known why... I think it's awesome
@@montenegroafro4454if Jared Leto actually ends up being in the sequel he will not live to see the next sunrise
I completely agree! I rewatched it a few days ago (for maybe the 6th time) and it was just as compelling and beautiful as when I first saw it. One of the best uses of 3D as well, which rarely happens anymore.
The more I watches later released films, the more I appreciate this movie.
I absolutely loved Tron: Legacy. It captured what the world of tron would’ve looked like if they had our current technology in 1982. And you can clearly tell it wasn’t just MADE but CREATED with a vision.
I think a problem with a lot of movies today is how they don't utilize dramatic lighting at all. Most shots have everything more or less exposed evenly. No dramatic highlights, and shadows smoothly lit like some bad HDR photo from 2005. This was not the case in Tron Legacy, there even in the virtual world.
Tron has some of the most dynamic lighting of any modern movie. Every scene on the Grid is dark, it’s the nature of the environment. Most of your visual cues are the neon lights and shapes giving structure to the darkness. It is a visual masterpiece and stretched the limit on how far the lights and darks can be separated in every single shot.
which is a huge shame because a large reason the volume was praised early on, was that it allowed appropriate lighting to a scene or environment, rather than the flat lighting used for green/bluscreen, where too strong a lighting would create color spill or be inconsistent with the final background lighting choices... forcing that choice early and on the LED set should have resulted in better planning while the real time videogame engine would have facilitated previsualisation and iterative testing.
I don't know what the specifications of the screens used in the volume are, but they probably don't have super high dynamic range leaving them unable to reach the brightness required for highlights, which results in an even brightness across the scene. They also only ever list LED as the screen type, so I doubt the black are very good either.
@@azrielsatan8693 of absolutely, but nothing prevents people using the volume to add traditional light projectors. it would only be an issue if the light source ends up in the camera's field of view, so basically only if you want to do a very harsh backlighting.
And evven then it seems to work ok, that's basically what the batman used the volume for anyway.
The Volume also can't generate directional light sources, only the illusion of them, so by default it will only illuminate a scene as if a giant diffuser is being used limiting the possibility of highlights on actors at all. Unless they create a robotically controlled key-lights that tracks with the screen's content... @@azrielsatan8693
Further proof that Tron:Legacy is a criminally underrated film
It's super highly rated. Just didn't do well at the box office
@@JohnnyRocker023 i like to think that people simply tought that this huge DISNEY logo hovering above the movie made it fail because eww.
@@tanikaze7697 Ive always felt like the other films we got in 2010 like Inception, Toy story 3, Deathly hallows pt1, latest Narnia and such, steered the mass away from tron.
hell yeah. The dialogue, story and acting are pretty bad but the pacing, soundtrack, visuals and world are so incredibly iconic and sick
@JohnnyRocker023 it was actually a box office hit making $400 million worldwide, which may not have been what Disney were hoping for, but the movie cost around $140 million I think before marketing. So it definitely doubled its money and that's not taking in the home media sales, which were quite impressive from what I recall.
i rewatch tron legacy sometimes just to enjoy the environment and design. they really made something unique and fantastical
I do this as well for the same reason. I also really like the story, it didn’t fall flat for me.
And the music by Daft Punk dude it’s so good.
Honestly, it remains to be visually stunning, and even has a slight influence to my own work
I think this depends a lot on the director's vision. Many of the directors of Marvel films aren't very "visual" and prefer to leave that up to other people on the team (James Gunn is a good exception), and this is not inherently a problem when everything is well alligned (and honestly I forgive ugly visuals if the script and acting are good). The problem with many blockbusters is that there is not much respect for the artistic process because the priority is to create a product to sell without taking risks. Obviously every movie wants money, especially one with a big production value, but respect for artistic vision is also important to make an impact on people and build a legacy, which also translates into money
"Fix it in post"
That to me always translated to "I have not bothered writing it out"
its not on the director a movie looks the way it does but rather the cinematographer and the cinematographers marvel hires nowadays get little to no creative control as they make their schedules so tight that they have to film everything in such little time
Whats does a director do if not direct what gets seen in film? Good directors have absolute control over every bit of the image, think Burton or Tarantino just to say names. Otherwise, what is the detector doing while directing a film?
@rusoxelruso It depends, there are films that are not visually impressive but have an amazing script, performances and editing, which are things that also need good direction, like Anatomy of a Fall for example. A good cinematography and production design, before being pretty, needs to serve the story
@karmreyes5796 But the cinematographer's decisions need to be approved by the director
It's not just the visuals of Tron Legacy that are such a big part of this films' success, but the music too. As soon as I saw it on the big screen I wanted the soundtrack, as the minimalist score by Daft Punk perfectly reflects the linear, minimalist visuals. Brilliant connection of the two makes the whole thing even more impactful.
This is actually a thing I notice in the art world in general all the time. People are excellent at drawing designing EITHER characters OR environments in seclusion. It's always "poses", either a doll posed or a miniature readied. That's how most concept art and illustrations look and... It's quite boring.
But the moment you have to design character IN an environment, doing something, interacting... Suddenly it becomes extremely difficult. Hence why you rarely see concept art like that.
Only the true professionals seem to be able to do this consistently, where they can draw a FULL concept, not just elements of it. But most of the time, the best you get is a guy with a stick standing on a hill, looking into the grand vista... The Adventures of the Sticksalesman.
_The Adventures of the Sticksalesman_ 😅 Cuts deep. That guy gets everywhere, doesn't he?
They want to be Aang right before the titlecard so bad
When this film came out, i was laughed at by film academics (lecturers and students) for my love and importance of this film! It is nice to see over 10 years later that not only was i right, but also happy to see the love this film deserves. As for CGI films, there has never been one either shot or made better imo because they miss the core design that the world comes first before the action and filming.
Amazing video btw
I have a friend who didn’t like it… I told him to re-watch it and to focus specifically on the cinematography and Sfx/music, he then appreciated it for how well it was put together.
I agree with you, it was a big leap in how movies could look
I mean, it's a gorgeous movie, enough so that I got it on Blu-Ray, but the dialogue is a bit leaden, and most importantly the lead actor (Garrett Hedlund) was dead weight. Everyone else in the cast was blowing him out of the water in practically every scene. The AI characters had more emotion & inner life than the actual human we were following through the story. That was it's big problem to me.
@@WhiskyCanuckThere are a lot of valid criticisms to be laid at this movie, but the visual look cinematography, sfx and music (Daft Punk 🤘🏼) are all absolutely stellar.
Completely agree. I like some movies a lot that are "bad", but when someone tells me they don't like this film I'm completely baffled as to why. It's amazing.
i have done the same because my background started in photography, its why its one of my favourite films as its a sensory treat that no film really comes close too.
@@HannahFortalezza
Tron, not being a terribly popular movie, was really fun to watch and I'm glad that every now and then a video pops up referencing it in a positive way.
Tron Legacy is, and always was, underrated af.
Because it mentions the "Creator"
Thank you for saying that the problem is purely the execution. People are quick to hate CGI nowadays, they blame almost everything on it, it's so unfair. VFX is an art form deserving of respect and admiration, when it sucks it's almost always because the artists aren't given enough time and to top it all off they are often underpaid. Oh and most stories are terrible lately
You’re absolutely right on every level. I’d just add one extra difference. Quality storyboarding. Modern movies are either lacking in good storyboard artists who would, by their nature, ensure that virtually every shot would be dramatic and contain all of these three key features you covered. Or… the director, director of photography, or VFX teams undermined, ignored, or strayed from our wise amazing storyboards to fit their own preferred vision, technological limitations, or to accommodate the “location”… or lack thereof as in the volume set.
I think this movie was also a solid example of the "right" way to do 3D. Any big uses of it were for depth (like when the camera's passing over the massive array of soldier programs) moreso than for pop (like, say, Friday the 13th part 3). Instead of trying to jump out and grab you, thereby calling attention to itself and possibly knocking you out of the scene, it just opens up and allows you to sink deeper into it.
Also, the 3D worked great in the arena scene. This is the only movie I saw in 3D and thought "now that's a director who knows how to utilise 3D"
The Mandalorian went to great effort to integrate and conceal the Volume into a physical set, compared to Obi Wan and Ashoka which used it as a substitute for physical sets.
I noticed that! I couldn't place my finger on what made Obi-Wan different than Mandalorian effects wise, because I knew they used the same sets. The best I could come up with was "The Mandalorian directors understood the limits and the advantages of the Volume, while Obi-Wan just used it as a normal set."
It's just so frustrating to see directors use their tools around them in the most basic senses without understanding the art to them.
Ahsoka also had bad lighting
Always glad to see more people appreciating this great film.
Crazy to think the best thing modern disney ever made is basically the only thing that never got a sequel.
And it might not be visual, but its also worth noting how absolutely perfect the sound design in this film is.
The REAL reason for the huge difference in cinematography is the following of just three very simple steps:
1) Write the movie before you begin making it.
2) Give the VFX team the detailed, annotated and complete list of shots to deliver.
3) Do not speak to, "check in with", annoy or even *think* about changing even the tiniest aspect of the package given to the VFX team.
That is *literally* it. That's the magic.
The fact that to the general public step one seems like the most obvious and barest minimum needed before begining to start filming on projects with budgets allocated in the hundreds of millions shouldn't be funny to those with experience inside the studio system.
The fact that expecting to have even one of the steps when filming projects with budgets in the hundreds of millions is *utterly hilarious* to those with experience inside the studio system should be horrifying to the general public.
2 only works if VFX starts after the movie has been fully edited and locked, otherwise you get the marvel problem where they have animatics of all the big CGI moments before they film and there’s no room for spontaneaty
Tron Legacy broke rule 1 though.
@@WhiskyCanuck worldbuilding started and was finished before they began filming, the visual design process is also part of the script. If it is not taken into account you can end up in the Boredomlands that defined most of the MultiDisnyverse
Recent movies with good cinematography include Denis Villeneuve works, Arrival, Blade Runner 2049 and Dune all include the elements you mentioned, and I would add masterful usage of color. George Miller's Mad Max Fury Road is also perfect in this sense. Ben Stiller's series Severance also has that Kubrick-like aesthetic and cinematography (and perfect frames !). More generally Zhang Yimou makes perfect pictures - most of the time - also with everything from leading lines to probably the most interesting usage of color in all of cinema history. Oh and I must also mention Wes Anderson, whose visuals are actually his signature, also with incredible framing, attention to detail, and everything perfect in each picture.
This movie just bombarded every facehole with quality. The visuals and sound-design/music are just so mind-blendingly amazing. I always was, and still am, completely dumbfounded how anyone could say this movie wasn't amazing.
Tron Legacy is one the best looking movies ever made
along with
2001 A Space Odyssey
The Matrix
Event Horizon
Beyond the Black Rainbow
The Cell
Love Tron 2. ... Kosinski also directed Oblivion and Top Gun Maverick. And, has some fun commercials floating around.
I like that guy
No wonder!
I was actually about to comment that I think oblivion is an example of a good use of a volume stage, the way they built the set inside of it to make it feel like tom cruise and his sky house were really perched in the sky.
In each of Kosinski's movies he achieves such a cool and unique aesthetic, as a kid I was so obsessed with Tron 2 and Oblivion they both captured such a vibe, the way those movies looked and felt watching them made me want to watch them over and over again, I never even knew he was the one who made both of those movies!
...
My favourite movie of all time is Speed Racer.
Fun fact Kosinski is directing the F1 movie in 2025
@@kevingame3198 ooo very cool, I might have to watch it now
I just love the fact that there are still vids being made about Tron Legacy 13 years after its release. Repeat everyone, Disney give us Tron 3.
I have zero trust that Disney would be able to do a Tron 3 that would be even remotely decent. Mostly because of all the reasons stated in the video. They would try to imitate Legacy but I don't believe they would fundamentally understand or care what made the visual so impressive.
@@byucatch22 D'you know what gives me a TINIEST glimmer of hope? Riding the TRON: Lightcycle/Run ride at WDW. Easily THE pinnacle experience of my late adult life (barring my wedding and the birth of my children). The entrance into the ride, meaning the entire time your standing waiting in line for nearly an hour, is spent bringing you INSIDE the LEGACY environment. And it's AWESOME.
Tron three has started filming as of a couple days ago, I'm pretty hyped
Jared Leto ☠️
No, please don't, we don't need a Toy Story 4 kind of movie all over again
Something to also keep in mind, is the contrast dynamic between very sharp and very blurry cgi. Usually blurry cgi is used to mask bad cgi, as an easy form of blending vfx with actual camera shots and props. You see this in all modern Marvel movies and similar productions, so much haze and blur on a lot of effects, environments, backdrops, etc - and at the same time also a lot of things fighting for attention yet hardly anything stands out very clearly with sharp contrasts and focus.
Tron does this exceptionally well, also aided by its artistic choices. Anything in attention is sharp as a razor's edge, almost nothing is blurred out to mask vfx-to-prop transition. The light and darkness values are contrasting to pull your eye on the details in a 70-20-10 format - being 70% general frame, 20% support to the frame, and 10% high-focus and high attention visual details that just pull your attention in like a magnet, and lets your mind rest and see very clearly what the director wants you to see and pay attention to.
Take any Marvel movie for comparison and pick any random frame - for example 12:02, and just look at that scene. The obvious vfx is all a bit hazy and blurred, nothing stands out as sharp as the props/actors. Everything and everyone appear of equal importance, there is no 70-20-10 rule applied - basically all of this is just one collective unit. Where is our focus supposed to be? On Thor? On Zeus? On the guards and ladies behind? The only thing we have to go off of, is what the actors are doing, but visually speaking they're just one big blob of visual nothingness. There are a lot of well made details and elements, but none of them get the space and focus to truly shine and stand out. They are all screaming for our eyes to look at them, yet nothing is in focus. Nothing is sharp, nothing is dynamic, nothing is leading our eyes. And that golden haze glow on everything just washes out the frame to even further distance our focus from what's being shown. This is bad cgi direction.
I loved Tron Legacy when I was a kid, I didn't know why but it was just so satisfying for the eyes; a perfect world and a really clean experience where everything that happened on screen was perfectly clear! This video was very interesting!
Well after this video you DO know why it's so satisfying.
I loved TRON: Legacy the first time I watched it and that love has only grown with every rewatch. It's an underrated masterpiece.
Another movie I feel needs mentioning when it comes to the art of utilizing green screen and CGI effects to achieve a stellar aesthetic is Sin City. Much different style, of course, but it also made the most of the tech available and used it creatively rather than rely on it as a crutch or lazy solution.
Tron was my favorite movie as a kid and I still love it. It's probably the most underrated movie ever made! The fact that we are more amazed with movies that have been shot without CGI (or little) rather than the oversaturated VFX of other movies tells you something. Great video guys!
I always wondered why modern movies with the insane level of detail and realism could tend to still have that "green screen effect", even though there were no apparent green lines around obviously cut-out areas. This is something I never even considered and was awesome to learn about, I'll definitely be thinking about this in future films I watch.
_Tron: Legacy_ is one of the most underrated films of all time
_Tron: Uprising_ is also one of the most underrated TV shows of all time
Sadly, Uprising was the last time Disney touched the ip back in 2012. And I doubt a reboot would stay true to the source material.
You touched on an important point here, which is how early the visual development was nailed down for Tron.
Digital Domain created a concept trailer for the movie, fully executed. Altho minimal, it had the fundamental aesthetics nailed down. That was a major part of the pitch that helped greenlight the film. It was later released by Disney as an official trailer in 2009
I love that concept trailer! There's so much drama and worldbuilding in such a short runtime.
I think there is something to be said about shots in Ant Man and other Marvel Movies blatantly displaying where the green screen/other filming backgrounds ends or where the ceiling of the warehouse/shooting studio begins. Great video! Love Tron: Legacy!
This movie is so underrated
The narrative and characters sorta suck, it's a meh movie. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut it's a visual... Ahem... Marvel.
@@jesustyronechrist2330 I disagree. It's a classic tale of betrayal between master and student in one of the most visually stunning environments ever created.
They took this movie to its maximum potential, they created the perfect sequel!
Excellent, excellent, excellent work. I'm so glad to see this discussion raised from a place of love and not cynicism.
Randomly got recommended you videos, now im binging them. I dont even know anything about CGI, but your explanations are so easy to understand and entertaining, that I just want to watch more. Keep up the good work man, clearly your videos are popping off, deservedly so!
Yea, I've found this channel through his District 9 video and I instantly got hooked! So great stuff!
I liked this movie as a kid, haven't seen it since. A lot of people say its bad so I never rewatched as an adult.. But man, even if the story sucks, I need to just rewatch for the eye-candy. It still holds up.
I just rewatched this the other day. I have absolutely no idea why people didn't like Tron Legacy. I love the film, and I hate that it doesn't have another sequel yet.
there's something you didn't focus enough of on is that often the movies are often rewritten during even the cgi process which means reshoots and the CGI artists have even less time to make something look good whether it's the CGI it's self or putting a set in that screen room, CGI artists don't have enough time to do their jobs now and the problems stem from higher up and they trickle their way down
Tron: Legacy is truly under-rated, much like the original 1982 film. The visual style of both films is so unique and interesting.
This is one of those great criminally underrated movies that has some of the best cgi/vfx, music, visual style,camera work and use of 3d done right.
I sometimes listen to the soundtrack and can practically watch the movie again just from listening to it.
I just rewatched Legacy recently and it's amazing how well it holds up against more recent competition.
Tron Legacy was truly ahead of its time in my opinion. Though its a Disney owned IP and funded film, it really isn't a Disney movie. And I'm 100% certain that is the reason its more under-appreciated than it should be. 14 years later and its still my favorite looking movie of all time.
love this visuals on this movie, still hope this a 3rd movie, but people hated on legacy when it came out abit then last few years been acting like they loved this movie the entire time
I always loved this movie. Even saw it in the theater. No revisionism here for me.
This movie is such an underrated gem, if nothing else by how gorgeous its world and music (RIP Daft Punk) are.
Tron Legacy is one of my all time favorites and thank you for this informative video about how "The Volume" actually works.
The criticism on the volume , seems like a perfect example of unintended consequences causing a new set of problems that the volume didn't set out to fix, while barely fixing the problems that the new technology addresses
20:19 I believe the closest we have gotten to fulfilling all the three points has to be Loki's Season 1 and 2. The sets were almost all practically made (even along with the roofs, do see Marvel's Assembled ep), direction choices were well planned out and a massive sense of scale was pretty spot on. All the three points were almost a necessity for Loki to actually succeed as a D+ show.
As a novice student of film and production, i find videos like this extremely interesting and engaging. I think you would do very well offering some online classes on skill share. I look forward to perusing your YT library in the near future. Thanks!
I really enjoyed Tron Legacy, I feel like it got a lot of hate that it didn’t deserve. The cinematography, music, VFX, and style was amazing. The story and characters weren’t incredible, but still really fun and far more entertaining than 95% of the action/sci-if/hero stuff getting made today.
You really opened my eyes with this video. I realized that recently when watching these new marvel movies I had been wondering what I’m supposed to focus on. They aren’t using any great cinematic techniques anymore. The leading lines aspect is the biggest issue because without them you’re just watching a bunch of movement in front of your face.
Had the writing been up to par with the cinematography, this would’ve been a masterpiece.
The original was very revolutionary too. It was the first film to use 100% CGI environments, and it was also filmed in monochrome black, and then each film frame was physically hand panted.
It also helps Tron Legacy has such a robust and bold soundtrack. The world makes total sense within the music and everything flows.
Modern Marvel movies just don't give a fuck and are so afraid of making bold choices with their soundtracks which means the picture and motivation of the world feels just as thin.
Tron Legacy also does a great job of keeping the camera steady and the environments clear of clutter so you can focus on the characters and the action. MCU just shakes the camera and prays there's enough jumpcuts to keep you distracted.
I think you could add the use of colour and lighting cues, which are very strong in TRON legacy. Ok so the baddies might not wear black hats and the goodies white hats (although there is some of that) but the use of different characters in different colours (e.g. the use of a 'threatening' orange colour), the darkness of some parts and the lightness of others, all contribute to the identification and feelings of threat and hope.
Greenscreening doesn't require post-production to manually cut everything out (that's the whole point of having a green background). If you are going to use an approximation of the final background but not the actual final background in the volume, then you have to manually mask out everything from the foreground in each individual frame (so that's why studios minimize foreground objects when using the volume but not when using a greenscreen)
I feel I learned a ton about cinematography from this video! I can usually tell when a movie has effective cinematography or not, but never *why*. This gives me way more to look out for and appreciate!
Tron: Legacy deserves a 4K BluRay 60 FPS remaster - like that fan-made 60 fps short video. It is pure gorgeousness!
i think that also the very basic colors used in the film like gray and black compliment the CGI, where as with modern marvel uses colors that do not compliment the fx, causing them to look less real.
I reeeaally hope they make a sequel to this masterpiece!! Phenomenal world-building, beautiful story, stellar soundtrack..VERY under appreciated! Just hope the passionate filmmakers will come back and expand this world!!
thanks for this video. saw Tron Legacy in an IMAX, with the sound cranked up. This movie and Conan the Barbarian are the best music videos ever made.
I'd personally say the simplest way to explain it is that they didn't flinch. It's not a cyberpunk setting that's theoretically a simulation, it's constantly and visibly CG. No subtlety, no winking at the camera about how silly it is that we're in a simulation.
They just do not flinch, and instead they lean in, and that makes all the difference.
I wonder if the volume is also why all the backgrounds got so blurry for the mahority of the movies, like you get 1 or 2 cgi panoramic shots, and then half an hour of out of focus backgrounds while the characters fuck around on a flat stage, its like theyre setting their dof to max when human eyes and minds were perfectly capable of focusing on the character or admiring the background whenever we wanted to
Glad you made this because I can never quite put my finger on why newer cgi legit looks worse than cgi from over a decade ago. This movie still looks good enough that it could come out today and not look dated whatsoever
Tron Legacy also had one of the best scores ever
Between this and your Davey Jones video you've earned a new subscriber, sir! Really enjoying the content, seems like you're actually knowledgeable about the craft of filmmaking rather than just talking out of your butt about something you have many opinions but few actual facts about, like many other RUclipsrs out there. So I appreciate that a lot. (Plus I always appreciate some TRON: Legacy love, that movie will always be underrated.)
It doesn't hurt that the Tron Legacy soundtrack is incredible
The solution to the volume is to use it sparringly for slow and simple scenes, and use practical sets and classic green screen for the more complex scenes. And most importantly - love and passion for the art, rather than brult out a flick for the quick bjg and retaining of copyrights.
technically you could just tell the volume to project green
@@Appletank8 true, but you're still restricted by the floor area of the volume. With blue/greenscreen you can make the area as large as a building, or shoot out in an actual field with green screen obscuring just some object of interest. Its generally more versatile.
_Tron: Legacy_ was definitely one of the better-looking digitally shot movies, but you may have highlighted why in ways I didn't even think of.
its crazy how trons vfx still holds up in so many ways, not perfect ofc in some way its definitely shows its age, but theres so much character to it. Makes me sad that disney doesn't seem to care for those kinds of movies anymore
As someone who’s gone through animation school and done a bachelor’s and honours, this video really warms my heart because TRON Legacy is using what we REALLY had to learn and understand in our courses. Leading lines, framing how scale works in comparison to character and setting, shape language - these are fundamentals of storyboarding and concept design!
TRON Legacy is a good live-action/CGI film with live action actors because it EMBRACED being animated FIRST. I’m reminded of a Steven Spielberg interview where he said that every film director should learn to animate first, because it teaches people how to visualise the shots in their heads.
And though it was architecture and not animation, Joseph Kozinzki absolutely knocked it out the park with this one. It’s clearly BECAUSE of his architecture sensibilities that we get physical sets working INTO these three principles combined with the CGI ADDING (not replacing, adding!) to the locations are what made Kozinzki and Co’s visuals absolute BANGER. Major props!
Tracked floating green within the frustum - especially 48 alternate frame will help with good looking composites without lengthy roto.
However you still need to solve bad time management. Photo realistic finished virtual sets require time, money and a team with great communication - all before the shooting day. While traditional post can go over budget and time and "fix it later".
My favorite movie of all time. Thank you for this.
It's funny that Marvel and Star Wars - at least recently - have been produced by Disney and the world of Tron: Legacy was too!! Honestly love Legacy, will always love it. Hoping for TR3N to look just as good as Legacy did, they can't destroy another masterpiece
This comment might get lost, but I'm a film student and I discovered your channel recently. I think you've done a great job in synthesizing the crazy pipeline and techniques used in the film world. VFX artists are usually overworked and underpaid with little creative freedom, it's amazing to see people shining light on what's really happening. Loving your content, keep it up 😻
Tron Legacy is one of my favorite movies for your reasons mentioned. It might not have the best dialogue on the planet and the story might have been predictable, but it pulled you in so deep. Especially when Clu finds the secret apartment and it's just silence as they explore these new objects. Legit amazing cinematography.
Well done, I appreciate well thought out and executed work like this and on this topic of Tron! Nice! The cinematic feel is also due to great storyboarding, it helps predict labor and hours, justifying expensive setups or shots, this is where decisions are made early in production to help a smaller budget movie like Tron, in comparison to most Marvel movies, this constraint helps with a smaller budget, because someone with an eye for cinematography has laid it down visually, made it work in a small square as a penciled out idea, if it ant broke dont fix it.
I'm giving the comparison of how most of the Marvel movies are shot , because of the examples you have running, on a marvel production there is no 100% dedication to any shots being locked down incase something needs to change due to story and so on. A big budget can be more of a problem.
One thing about the video light wall studio / volume, which was used in the latest Batman as your example shows in your video of the sunset sequence at the end, that alone took 17 or more weeks to create the interactive 3D environment, that is to much forethought and dedication for the Marvel movies.
It is better to have final looks and modeling in the volume for matting edges and its cost efficiency.
You are absolutely correct about overselling the capabilities of tech, often visual problems are corrected by hand, per frame, that is a big talk on its own, or video.
A major problem is that artists are sometimes difficult to work with, so instead of working with unhinged experience that brings value to a shot, sometimes its sacrificed to rather deal with an inexperienced compliant person or a list of rules to comply.
The flaws showing through are bad planning, no confidence, in product or people, the wrong people take the credit and cant re- deliver.
Art remains art at 5% inspiration, 95% work and all logistics, art is over glorified sometimes, because it is hard work and hard thinking that gets it done, in comparison again, show me one executive whom claims credit for there film, there acquisition of the product, by working with no sleep, gets there hands literally dirty, understands human behavior.
People make the vision real, also the money that pays them, but dose the money really need to take a bow after claiming back a few billion.
I love Tron Legacy so much
One of my top movies of all time. It's the only movie I've seen in theaters 4 times. As a 13 year old who loved sci-fi and electronic music, this movie was world-changing for me when it came out. Even now, 14 years later, I can't get over how cool this movie is from start to finish. Simply amazing.
Tron Legacy is one of my favorite movies. It's awesome imo
I saw it in IMAX 3D opening night and it was one of the few real 3D releases around that time that actually blew my mind. The only others I had such a strong reaction to in theaters was Watchmen 3D and Avatar 3D. I only regret not seeing Hugo 3D considering it was a Scorcese movie shot in 3D and I missed it!
You deserve more attention bro❤ Best vid about tron🎉 so far
I did not realise that Joseph Kosinski directed this (after seeing Top Gun Maverick)
Very nice work. This video is exceptional in it’s detail.
"A modern Star Wars TV Show"
Ok hang on Andor looks fantastic.
The difference between Tron or even the Star Wars prequals and the stuff coming out of Marvel/Lucasfilm, is the backgrounds are planned. If there is a building, then that building needs a purpose. Antman is in a world of blobs and rocks, Thor was in a building of arches
The CGI of Tron Legacy is still among the best in the industry mostly because it is very streamlined and geared towards fitting into the world they are supposed to visualize. To keep long speech short, it looks elegant AF. :D
"The problem isn't with the technology, but with the execution".
This.
This video is absolute spot on!! I had this exact same complaint with recent Marvel projects where they had that look as if they were all filmed in front of green screen and evening else was added in later. I’m glad that you have put all those in actual technical terms.
Additionally, a shout out to Tron Legacy was cherry on top!! I absolutely loved that movie. I was shocked to learn years later that it was a flop!! I think because of this video, I’ve achieved inner piece now 😌😌
i think the main problem in modern mainstream movies who abuses CGI (mainly superhero movies), is that they saturate the screen with tons of stuff , the visual language of those movies is the equivalent of somebody rambling and screaming endlessly, just noise filler, you cant have focus in the important elements of storytelling if the background is a constant stream of infinite universes exploding while invaded by a million alien insects shooting lasers...for 120 minutes. it is not a problem of the CGI artists, but the lack of an skilled Director of photography and Director (maybe an editor), I guess that happens when the studio execs are the main creative force behind the movies. remember, "brevity (hence moderation) is the soul of wit" .
I love how this starts but its maddening that your not talking about the heavy use of locations in Andor or some of the really inventive ship lighting work, Fetts Fire spray for instance. A previously impossible execution.
One thing that always impressed me was that most of the light up suits were practical effects. Too many costumes these days in superhero films are edited with CGI but the ones in Tron Legacy were real. It was hard to get the lights flexible enough to work in clothes, and they used up so much power that they had to be switched off the moment a take ended, but they provided for a really cool effect hardly any other movie comes close to.
also the soundtrack was 11/10. and idk the last time a big name movie had music that good.
This is a really great breakdown of why a lot of big budget movies look so bad now. The actors feel disconnected from the background a lot of the time. Tron Legacy, for all its flaws, was masterful in how it used The Grid to enhance the story.
i'm not sure you mentioned it, but actually "Andor" cannot be grouped with the same hot mess that are CGI craptastic SW and Marvel. "Andor" .. AFAIK it did not use The Volume and it shows...it's masterfully shot. But as you mentioned, The Volume cannot be really blamed for the mess...after all, it's just a tool...and if the director/cinematographer has no creative vision, even the most advanced filmmaking tools cannot hide that weakness.
Agreed, the real locations really helped that show so much
Tron Legacy was the first Disney film I saw in theaters in 15 years.. and I saw it 5 times. A true masterpiece which was seriously underrated .
I do honestly love how you put the problematically somewhat uncanny Clu onscreen when you said "which one I'd rather watch" but it's not like I disagree.
Just funny because people point out the face so often as an issue.