Hey Kripp,how's it going viewer here. So today I'm going to watch your video on ''The Aggro Difference'' Hope I enjoy the clips,and I'll see you in a bit.
F2P player perspective on Hearthstone: - Control decks - need very rare precise cards in large amounts. Extremaly expensive. Mildlly efficient. - Aggro decks - can be made of scraps. Can kill mages before 7th turn.
+Fartuess Before the latest expansion one could do control on a budget but they were not easy and impossible to auto pilot, had a very unusual control mage that didn't even use epics and only two rares in the whole deck had to be crafted. People spent more dust on their aggro decks than I did my F2P control mage :/
MrKillswitch88 And earlier we had Patron Warrior which wasn't aggro but was cheap and effective thus it dominated the ladder. While adventure expansions are cheap and acessible to F2P the pack expansions are the problem. People will craft epic/legendaries only for relatively cheap and unbalanced decks like secret pally. While formats were adressing the case with reducing number of "pack expansions" collected needed to have "full arsenal" it flushed down to the toilet GvG collection which many older F2P players had - arena was giving only GvG packs for quite sometime - and they had holes in classic for the exact same reason. Also by reducing card pool they reduced the chance of creating something interesting but non aggro out of scraps. In the end i think that until F2P players will get enough Whispers packs they will either have to play aggro or wild.
+Fartuess Once again F2P can do control if they are willing to make decks of their own and that is what I have been doing since GVG first came out. It isn't always easy or fun but one learns a Lot and becomes a better player despite playing scrap decks. Been playing with scraps since then and eventually I cobble together something interesting. Just doing 40 gold daily quests by only playing every two or three days (still log to reroll the rubbish) and put brawl to use. A free pack and 300 to 400+ easy gold a week depending on what dailies I get solves the issue of not being able to get packs. Completed NAXX and LOE without spending a dime!
+MrKillswitch88 I just but adventures and packs through doing quests due to how unlucky I am with drafts (wisp,target dummy or murloc raider really blizzard) and over the past year I got 2 expansion I got the rest of naxx seeing as how I was already up to the final boss and then league of explorers and built a really good Reno Mage list that beats a load of decks if I'm havi a bad day I'd just go to my freeze Mage deck with that deck It doesn't really matter whether I draw badly seeing as how I draw so much burn I can kill them by turn 10 and with the amount of freeze effects survive till then so I've never really had a bad time against aggro even turn 6 lethal aggro decks
+Alex Nguyen He likes to build up the control slowly and when his opponent is fed up and just about to conced he punishes his opponent with a combo and hits hard so he wins
yeah that's exactly why i stopped playing Hearthstone. With the new expansion i had hope, but few days later i met zoo, zoo, zoo, aggro shamy, zoo, zoo, aggro shamy, aggro shamy, eboladin, facehunter, zoo, zoo, aggro shamy, eboladin...you get the point. Sometimes i meet other control decks and have a great time, but that's not worth my time for a 1/10 great experience with a fun game that makes me actually think what i'm doing instead of hoping the best.
Control paladin is the top deck right now, and i just played vs a control shaman with frost shock , at rank 20 legend. If you know what youre doing you can play control and beat everything
+Punxsu Start asking the Devs to make it so you can ban facing a certain class. Don't like reno warlock or rush warlock? Bam they are gone. Don't like rush shaman, or face hunter? Bam they are gone. Although realistically you would only be able to ban one class at a time, so it wouldn't stop all rush decks if you hate those, or it wouldn't stop you from facing all the control decks if you hate those. Unless they made all decks with enough high level minions be considered control, and all decks with a bunch of low level minions be considered rush and you ban based on rush or control. So instead of banning 1 out of 9 classes, you would effectively ban facing 50% (assuming rush and control are split 50/50, or in your example 10/90) of all the decks on the ladder, making it much more likely for mirror match-ups to happen in terms of rush vs rush and control vs control.
+Punxsu I used to play a lot of rogue and control decks, but yeah, zoo/aggro everywhere I made a zoo deck last night and went up 3 ranks (17 - 14) in less than an hour haha Unranked is so much more fun now
+Remy Lebeau This is not a well thought out idea at all. It would wreck the meta game and make a lot of deck out of control unbeatable. Take freeze mage for example. I would say that freeze mage has a ton of good match ups (over 50%) but has an absolutely terrible match up against control warrior. So if freeze mage got big again a lot of high level players would switch to warrior to shut them down. Now consider if the mage could ban out the warrior and never play against it. Well now that mage will never que into its bad match-up (warrior) and only que into games that it has a 50% or more win rate against. So its either you play warrior and never play a mage or play another class and get wrecked by freeze mage. Im only using freeze mage as an example here but hopefully you get the idea.
+Arrakiz666 It was here, for a few days after the expansion. People were experimenting with all the old gods, and most of the games I played were decided at the 10+ turns. After that, polished cancer decks appeared on Hearthpwn and it reverted back into aggro meta, as if nothing happened.
a common phrase in magic is "There's no such thing as a wrong threat; only a wrong answer."I feel like that wraps out what you're saying in the beginning of this video
There's just not enough mass removal and what mass removal there is, isn't good enough. Players should be afraid to overcommit to a board, but aggro decks can basically dump their hands with zero fear.
I don't think you need board clears I think you need neutral aggro punishers, that have decent stat lines. 1.) a version is a mind control tech like card. 3/3 stats for 3 mana if your opponent has 2 or more minions that cost 2 or less stars take control of 1 of them. 2.) a reverse and buffed Gormok the Impaler. 4/4 stats for 4 mana if your opponent has 3 or more minions deal 4 damage 3.) a version of Lights Champion for low stared minions plus some sort of buffed effect and nerfed stats. 2/3 stats for 3 mana either silence and deal 2 damage to a minion with 2 or less attack or 2 or less stars. Possibly 2/3 stats for 3 mana silence all 3 mana or less minions. So I'm basically saying broken neutral effects directly targeted at aggro decks will give people various ways to punish that play style on a consistent basis.
+TheMrParagon Elaborating on some of the cost and effects a 3 mana minion that targets decks that have 2 cards out by turn 2 is extremely powerful against aggro decks and you don't have to fear it will take a ragnaros or sylvanas. In early game this would be a huge swing making aggro affraid to flood the board and presenting a huge consiquence if they do. A Gormok that gives you a powerful effect if you are behind on the board instead of already in control of the board. On turn 4 this will be powerful for a matchup that is onsided and can help bring you back without swinging the board in a ridiculus manar. It's also more powerfull on minions with less than 4 health a silence effect that gets rid of a low cost minion and prevents deathrattles or a silence effect that can remove many field buff effects and create an opportunity to clear the board without having buffed health ruin you or a deathrattle ruining you. Both of these effects are targeted at the many times when you have a card that would have saved you but the deathrattle or the Coldlight Seer have screwed you.
+TheMrParagon This is really constructive idea, and I think it would work and make hearthstone less aggro dominant game. That's why it won't ever happen. Aggro driven game attracts wider range of people in eyes of Blizzard, and their goal is to make the game as fast as possible and more "fun" (meaning more flame juggler / fiery bat uncontrollable RNG effects). This is the way it is and it will ever be, unfortunately.
***** well if you look at the nature of the cards the are imagined to be on curve answers to aggro at the beginning stages of the game when most control decks only have one or two answers at given times these give additional answers that increase your chance of dealing with a difficult situation before it gets out of hand. The problem with MCT is that it normally has no effect on turn 3. My MCT like idea turns a board that is a 2/1 and a 3/2 in your opponents favor because he had a turn 1 play and a turn 2 play into a 2/1 3/3 vs a 3/2 in your favor. Also it isn't super overpowered because it has little to no affect against other control decks which don't usually have multiple small minions in the late game. The Gormok card can help if you and your opponent have big boards but normally one person has the initiative this helps balance the board without completely destroying them like unleash the hounds. The silence card will probably be the best out of the three if it has the field silence but it still hurts aggro more than any other because they rely on buffs to deal damage and deathrattle to keep the board against board clear. So can they make Aggro better yes but, it's easier for a control deck which has minions with various mana counts to avoid these powerful cards than aggro decks which 90% of their minions are below 3 mana.
A big part of the problem is that there aren't many big cards that are good that aren't legendaries, so people have less of a reason to make control decks if they're F2P.
+CrzyLion prety much is it. What im doing is going full Reno unless Im playing a clases with good healings.There s no way to survive any fast deck just with vendors and farseers.
Reminds me when I receive "The Meek Shall Inherit" quest. I usuallly build a Warlock deck with only 1 and 2 drops in it, quite similar to this one in the video. Surprisingly I often find myself easily winning the first three or four games in a row.
Hearthstone's mana system stops control decks as we know them from existing because they can't go bigger than aggro decks, since aggro decks will get to 10 mana on turn 10 just as well. That's why Dr Boom was in every deck: it didn't matter what your plan was, you can cast it on turn 7 anyway.
+arcengal Control is almost always more powerful in the late game than aggro due board clears and having more valuable minions, when aggro runs out of steam it's game over. After turn 10 aggro has used a good number of it's threats already and good control deck still has plenty of big threats and answers in the deck. Shame that Blizzard didn't nerf divine favor, that card punishes for good control play.
+arcengal Control decks in HS are "bigger" than aggro decks in that they have bigger minions and spells. It's not about the mana, it's about the value per card at that point. That's why we talk about aggro decks "running out of steam" and control decks "stabilizing" - as soon as the game hits that tipping point it's a guaranteed win for the control player.
+Phyrexious And fights against refined netdecks with very strong anti-aggro tech playing their hand 95% like a pro would do, dying due to the nature of their hand.
+EvilNinjadude Some decks *are* definitely better or worse at different ranks. The meta *is* different at different ranks. Especially at legend, people start playing some wacky decks to counter a very specific type of meta. Heartstone is basically a game of rock-paper-scissor. If you climb to rank 5 with Scissor, chances are you're gonna start facing a lot of Rocks at some point. None of the three options are inherently better, each has a 33% win chance. The only difference that determines the outcome of your success is what your opponent plays. And that frequency of decks - which we call the meta - is different at different ranks.
***** I know the meta isn't really aged and refined enough to have reached a stable state at this point in time, but would you say the Power of aggro decks even at high ranks is within reason?
+NumdegasedUHC I used your services, though I was not proud of it, I looked to the Commenterinos to find Skipperino Kripperino, but alas he was misserino.
It's actually not as bad as I expected. With Healbot and Belcher gone I was prepared to lose every game on turn 3 to some Face Shaman. Luckily you can usually survive until turn 5 Kappa Keepo
this is exactly why MTG is still a much better game. early game removal and board clears that actually let you deal with agro and no one deck archetype is better than the rest.
+Abeltensor >you only have 20 health >MTG is boring as fuck >also expensive as fuck >try to play big card >opponent says fuck you and card dies before existing imagine if when you played cthun your opponent could play a fuck you card and destroy it before the battlecry triggers. That's MTG
Just wanted to say that I don't regret crafting your fatigue warrior deck list even though i have like a 40% winrate at rank 16 with it... it took all the dust i had saved since im a f2p player, but a single victory against another control deck means more to me than 5 defeats in a row against aggro.
Kripparrian, you ran the "Cixah's miniatures" Paladin deck for Blizzcon 2013. Which ran Leper Gnome, Argent squires, Abusive Sergeants and Divine Favour. Do you think you ran an aggressive deck in a tournament in order to win?
+Moderation Gaming Yeah thats what this entire video is about. Aggro is bonkers. Also thats irrelevant in a way, since thats a tournament. Ladder is hardley blizzcon.
Any chance blizzard will ever address this or do they want their game to have a talent-less easy mode meta that takes all thought and fun out of the game?
+MorroWolf dude, aggro deck is around 1000 dust (+ most of the cards are the same for all classes) and general control deck is....6,8,10k (even more for legendary heavy decks)...most people don't pay for cards and that means they literally can't play anything else because the can only afford the super cheap and effective aggro decks
+Dante Vazquez-Marentes Have you tried playing anything to Legend? The final climb is brutal, it doesn't really matter what you're playing at that point.
+Dante Vazquez-Marentes If you use zero thought playing zoo you are a really bad zoo player. Many of the best players agree zoo is one of the if not the highest skill cap deck in the game
i think the only awy to resolve this isn`t by getting board clears but changing the ladder. in tounaments we normally see an equilibrium betwwen aggro midrange and control, but in ladder we have this problems that you listed. i`m not saying to make something like tournaments in ladder, that seems stupid, but the ladder mechanics needs to be remade.
+Lucas Iron de Souza Camargo Disagree, why does mtg get 4 mana kill everything cards? when we have to pay 4-5 to do 2-3 damage to all minions? the ladder is fine...the balance of archtypes isnt, we need a balance.....
I don't know why, but him saying "I thought you automatically start with a Tunnel Trogg in your hand as a shaman, wtf", I actually laughed so hard, my teeth fell out. Hearthstone is unfortunately the only thing we can play in this hospital.
There's a common phrase used in Magic the Gathering when discussing aggro vs. control: "There are no wrong threats, just wrong answers" Seems to encapsulate what Kripp's getting at. An aggro deck can play whatever cards it wants, as long as it's pressuring the opponent, it's good. A control/midrange strategy has to build with the right answers for the meta, as well as drawing those cards when relevant.
+André Rufo some kind of forced curve for ladder would be nice.. like, you have to have at least X cards that cost Y or more, and at least C cards that cost B or less
I had this exact thought today. I played MTG for years and the reason control decks usually take over the standard meta is because they're more consistent than aggro decks. But in Hearthstone it feels way easier to get wrecked by a bad draw with control or midrange than aggro. I've lost track of the number of times I've had a one-of Old God in my hand and died 5 turns before I could cast it because I couldn't stabilize fast enough.
***** Yeah, my bad. It was just before - not after - it's been corrected. Although, he also could've noticed the arrow aiming at the Fire Elemental just before he hit Concede. The play was visibly in motion, even though it hadn't been executed. I wasn't saying Kripp did anything wrong. I was actually pointing out how terrible the missed lethal was. It's not like you expect your opponent to overlook something that obvious. It would've left him at 2 health. He may have lost on the next turn, but there was also the chance of topdecking Healing Wave.
Hey Krip I know your famous and have a lot of fans. But how about the idea of a board clear with silence involved. Think about it. Silence your opponent minions first with death rattles that let them spawn minions but that gets silenced along being cleared without letting them be revived or spawn a different minion.
Had a similar issue today, playing a warlock, decided to keep hellfire, first round, played that little 2/1 murloc that summons a 1/1, second round he did the same, third round warleader... really wishing I had that hellifire at that time, next turn he ... crap I don't remember 2 more murlocs, and I was dead.
Yeah more board clears would work. Or make decks have 40 cards rather than 30 and add an extra card to each starting hand; that would allow players to dedicate more of their deck to cards that deal well with aggro, without changing the fundamental idea of the deck, and have more chances to draw said cards, and Blizzard would not have to go over every single card in standard mode with a fine toothed comb to actually balance the game. On top of that, face hunters would have more cards to draw and hit face with, so aggro players will have nothing to complain about. In the case that those aggro players do try to complain, we can point back to this thought process and call them whiny bitches, then ignore their mindless drivel they call a 'valid argument'. Makes me wonder if a "40 card constructed deck Tavern Brawl" would work well or not.
unixtreme Yeah, and maybe make all the mana crystals actually be cards that you need to put in your deck...actually, that sounds like an awful waste of space. Scratch that idea.
I think the biggest difference is that Midrange and Control are usually more dust costly decks, whereas Aggro is usually really dang cheap. I can kinda understand *why* it's that way, but we can see the issue with this in ladder pretty easily. So much Aggro because it's cheap and effective, and not nearly enough Control to counter it because it costs a lot more to make those decks.
+Mathmachine i mean, by nature you'll see more aggro because aggro games are faster therefore they are queueing more often. if it was a 40/60 aggro/control split i bet the meta would still be mostly aggro games
+Mathmachine AND when you actually do make a good control deck, it's not usually as good/consistent as aggro. it's gotten a bit better in standard now that creeper and shredder are out, and most neutral minions actually die when you kill them, but still, without more and better (and more common) control tools, aggro will pretty much always have a leg up on control.
Sonic Shoe With shredder, creeper and egg gone the boards may now be easier to clear. But with some of the cards aggro got now it is a lot harder to survive long enough to clear or survive after you cleared.
liang dar yeah... not being able to come "back from the junk heap" after eating 11 damage from a 3mana 5 health minion that suddenly spiked to 9 attack (glares disapprovingly at darkshire councilman) hurts quite a bit. the apothecary doesn't even come close to being able to fill the void left by healbot when it comes to recovery tools.
Kripp ,I totally agree, I'm a free to play player and i like playing control but I have to play aggro because i just don't have the cards to make an okay control deck, my options are getting rekt playing a bad control deck or getting 80%-85% win rate with zoo that requires no legendaries and 1-2 epics.
+hassanReal It's cheap and affordable. Ppl who don't spend 200$ every xpack don't have every single leg needed to build all control decks unless they play for a year+ or so. Nzoth control Paly vs Zoo lock... zoo costs FOUR times less and performs about the same on win\loose ratio. Agro is more cost efficient and that's why most play agro.
+Xerxes Break No, it isnt. Agaisnt Freezd mage it is really mostly a game if skill where you need to predict his plays. Predicting Alex is the key, and longer you can prevent them from playing it will win you the game. Also turn when to use loatheb was really important but that counter play doesnt exist anymore. But it is still lot better than mindless zoo games.
Story of my live! You call it your free account, I call it my main account. Since the expansion went out, I can't build any working smart deck. Much fun.
+Xerxes Break how does aggro or zoo have any relation with net decking or not? The ONLY reason to ever need to netdeck is that your deck buildings skills suck.
Fa Mulan I disagree, I don't own all the cards and have made it to legend 312 with a cheap hunter aggro deck before and can consistently make it to rank 3 every season. It's about two months since the expansion came out and I've collected most of the cards (barring legendaries) and only need to craft a few epics (that I don't even want), this is from playing about 4-5 days a week for about 1hr-2hrs a time. This few month window after an expansion is the only time paying players get their advantage over everyone else and if they are paying, let them, it just means that I'm a more skillful player if I can still beat them with their ultimate card decks. Also, personally I think cheap aggro decks are often much better anyway and because of that the game is a little broken, so...
Fa Mulan Yeah it costs 1600 dust which you get in about a month from disenchanting if you do quests and spend ur cash on arena. It's not hard it just takes time. I've got about 5k dust banked up and I'm not planning on using it since I got most of the legendaries I want doing what I said above and hey, you might get lucky and open a deck with the leg. u need, though I wouldn't count on that... But surely it's more fun to work your way to it than buy it anyway, that's what games used to be about when I was growing up, time invested = worthy reward. Also, I make all my own decks, u can say meta flavour of the month if you want, but when I actually needed cards it was more a case of "Okay, so I've got these good cards, what pairs nicely with them". It's more fun to make an amazing deck out of cards you might not use cus u got all the best ones anyway... and about cards like Sylv. there is always a cheap solution for a super card like that, when I was coming up against it I always had an owl waiting or I'd be upset, simple... Just the way the cookie crumbles with RNG.
I have created many personal decks. My control decks generally are a lot better than my aggro deck. But that is because I don't like to play aggro, so my aggro decks suck (unless they are more combo or controll-ish but fast). Control deck aren't so difficult to create as long as you can find some kind of win condition and some cards to counter aggro. Combo decks arent' so difficult either if you find a combo that is powerful enough to design your deck around it. The kind of deck I find the most difficult to create are mid/tempo decks. It is very difficult to create a mid deck that doesn't suck against aggro and that is fast enough to win before control. The only excpetion to this is dragon priest, which is naturally anti-aggro and very fast against control. That is why I love to play my own variant of dragon priest.
There are two major flaws to Hearthstone at the moment that make aggro decks so strong as well. 1: Consistency With aggro decks playing to a lower overall curve it is much easier to draw into a solid opening hand with the critical 1-2-3 curve that wins a ton of games. If you're able to play on each turn and your opponent can't your board is developed and as their is literally no real ramp (outside of druid) or efficient board clears then or useful effects like scry (being able to set up the answer you need in the nick of time) the options a control player has are quite limited. There was a reason that Sludge Belcher was an auto-include in every SINGLE control deck outside of certain win-conditions like Freeze Mage. It's because he was an EFFICIENT card that allowed for control decks to limp into the late game. Keep in mind that is the same reason that Piloted Shredder and Dr. Boom were both very popular as well. They were sizeable bodies that provided a solid problem for your opponent and could force awkward and messy trades or a waste of a lot of resources. With the control and mid-range decks having to play on the back-foot from turn one you need FANTASTIC cards to play catch-up or at least fight efficiently with until you could get to your game-plan. Even some of the most efficient board clears often are drawn either too late or a piece is missing to stop aggro in their tracks. This of course leads to losses more often then not unless the aggro player stumbles or misplays and the higher rank you go the less likely that's going to happen. Nevermind the board clears that are lower priced are impossible to use as they just don't do enough or require spellpower minions (badly priced as they are) to be drawn. 2. Hand and Deck Size. Once upon a time Magic did toy with a forty-card deck limit and that got quickly burned to the ground. Why? Because it's so damn easy to draw consistently on a smaller deck then a larger one. This means you are more likely to hit game-winning combinations or continue to turn up the pressure until your opponent cracks. Fancy big critters means nothing if your opponent is consistently brutalizing you into the ground. Want a game that's caters to aggro look no further then Yugioh and how it's devolved into I k33l you faster. This brings a second issue in starting hand-size which is also a double-edged sword. On the one hand a larger hand size would potentially give mid-range and control a better overall chance in drawing their answers. That also means aggro is even MORE likely to curve out right which means if you don't have the answer in hand you go splat period. === Does aggression require thinking? Yes it does. It requires you to understand when to trade and when to just go for the kill to keep your opponent making inefficient plays because they're on a timer now. Granted I'll be the first to admit I have less of a headache playing my Shockadin, Aggro Shaman, and Zoolock lists at the higher ranks then my Control Warrior, Mid-Range Shaman, N'Zoth Paladin, and Dragon Priest.
+KeeperOf42 Hearthstone is fundamentally flawed in that it allows the attacker to choose who they attack with no input from the opponent (see MTG and the fact you can block minions with bigger minions). Even if it wasn't like MTG in that minions heal at the end of the turn, being able to block face hunter's or zoolock's minions with your bigger ones would literally fucking destroy them and make control viable. Yes, this would make control weaker because Paladin and Shaman are built in a way with their hero powers that would make your massive minions pretty much useless, but this all falls back to the idea that Hearthstone is built for aggressive decks and RNG decks only. Control is basically a fucking joke outside of Freeze Mage or Control Warrior (and even then those decks get rekt ~50% of the time by retarded aggro decks playing on curve).
Didn't matter that he lost lethal, the only thing that couldove saved kripp was the luckiest topdeck series in his life even then the shaman probably could have done two damage
Good point by Kripp. I'd love to play control warrior but fuck me I have to craft shield slams, brawls, gorehowl or grommash. With priest is a little bit easier at least. If I didn't have got Sylvannas and Baron Geddon as my two first legendaries from free packs it would have been almost impossible to play successfully control and even then, partially. People who don't spend money they'll always have to play aggro, the grinding to get the cards is just too much.
Isn't this the "core" problem of Heartstone ? I don't remember other trades/collectibles cards games (Duel of Champion, or Magic the Gathering, ...) having this kind of issue this much !
Kripp is just wrong here. A control deck isn't just one where you cut a couple early drops and load up on late drops - that's just greedy and dumb. A control deck is one with an excess of early game efficient cards and a single, narrow, incredibly card efficient end game condition. The whole point of control is to collapse your win condition into as few high value cards as possible, allowing the rest of your deck to be spent negating the opponents win condition. Good control decks: Nzoth Paladin (win condition is 2 cards, Nzoth Tirion), Freeze Mage (win condition is a handful of burn that doubles as board control), Control Warrior (win condition is Justicar and fatigue), Renolock (win condition is 3 cards, Leeroy PO Faceless Manipulator). In each of these cases, the ENTIRE rest of the deck is dedicated to stalling or negating opposing threats. That is how control should work. Kripps view is that control is just a standard deck shell minus early drops plus a couple board clears plus a bunch of late game. But that's just bad design. The whole reason you play control is so that your win condition can be a single card or multi card combo. This allows the rest of your deck to function just as a way to get you to that win condition of a couple of high value cards. Aggro on the other hand plays a ton of cards that advance the win condition, none of which individually do so.
A control deck is not one with an excess of early game, that is an aggro deck. A control deck needs to be balanced with a nice downhill curve that allows you to play on curve.
the zoos, the face shamans, the aggro paladins. those are the decks used to swiftly climb to the top. i got tired of getting railroaded by face shamans, so i created a murloc aggro pally. 90/50 wins/loses~10hours later i was legend.
The little twilight arcanist or whatever he's called (2/2 deal 1 damage to all enemy minions) would seem to be a good anti-agro card, until you actually try playing it against say, a tempo mage and realise you need another 2 damage to clear the two mana wyrms they always draw immediately.
This is why i'm pretty much done with Hearthstone until the next expansion. I've logged in about 5 times since The Old gods released. It just isn't fun anymore.
also you're playing rank 15+ ... no one knows how to mulligan at those ranks. You can't make any sort of serious conjeture from your experiences at those ranks.
+Rotan Bosson Kripp is a good and well known Hearthstone player. This means people expect him to have an opinion on what's going on in the game at the moment. He also says 'in my experience'. That's not presenting a 'serious conjecture'. What is a serious conjecture is 'no one knows how to mulligan at those ranks'. If you are beyond those ranks, then you have even less idea about what goes on in rank 15+.
dont know how to mulligan and youre up against the elephant elemental hooded troll guy, it seems? here: 1) click all cards you cant play before or on turn 3 2) hope to get cards you can play before or on turn 3 **** Special Exception Warning!!!!** I dont mean for this to be confusing, but if the card says "to all minions" then keep it!!!!!
Tournament perspective as opposed to ladder. One shot at beating a deck versus an afternoon of facerolling in an attempt to come out net positive, it's like night and day.
+KnucklesR2 Yep. Made some aggro decks for quests, it's so annoying to play them even though the decks are good. I much prefer trying to scrape together and make work a control or fun Yogg Saron deck with the cards that I have.
+AmazingSpriter97 Given the speed that aggro plays I need to get that out on turn 4/5 just to heal /face palm. If shaman one needs "Balancestraza" by turn 2/3 :c
My biggest issue with hearthstone is that anyone who is relatively new basically can't participate in most of the deck building aspect of the game. People often point to arena to solve this issue, but I don't think its enough. Any thoughts on how to fix this? Personally I think being able to get full dust refunds for maybe a day or two after a card is crafted might go a long way. Hard issue though, most of the solutions could cut into blizzards profits.
took me since pre naxx to have some decent control decks and other f2p people havent been playing that long
8 лет назад
+Michael Bell You are god damn right i got 5 with my cheap ass aggro mech mage. And every singletime after that there are handlocks,control warriors,fatigue warriors,oil rogues,aggro druids, that was before the oldgods
I just played old face hunter with some small changes bc of nerfs and it still freaking works. Just went 7-2 with it in ranked. The aggro shit is sickening
This has been my biggest complaint about Hearthstone for a long time. I want to experiment with mid-range/control, I need to tweek my deck and try new things. (and still get good draws). But this is all but impossible if I don't own ALL the cards! I'm very far from free to play, and it still feels like an uphill battle. Anyone with less funds are basically forced to play aggro. Only solution I see without major changes to a large assortment of cards is to increase starting hp to 35-40.
![[Hearthstone] Praise The Old Gods!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pCPIeOpzdK8/mqdefault.jpg)
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0:00 No speeding!
4:23 You can't catch me!
19:19 Get rekt!
WTF LOL
19:20
+Coperino Kripperino AKA Copperino Kripperino That was a good actually ha
Hey Kripp,how's it going viewer here.
So today I'm going to watch your video on ''The Aggro Difference''
Hope I enjoy the clips,and I'll see you in a bit.
+Renegade LMAO
thats even better than skipperino kripperino
+Renegade well played
i dont get it ;-;
Viewerino Kripperino confirmed?
F2P player perspective on Hearthstone:
- Control decks - need very rare precise cards in large amounts. Extremaly expensive. Mildlly efficient.
- Aggro decks - can be made of scraps. Can kill mages before 7th turn.
+Fartuess
Before the latest expansion one could do control on a budget but they were not easy and impossible to auto pilot, had a very unusual control mage that didn't even use epics and only two rares in the whole deck had to be crafted. People spent more dust on their aggro decks than I did my F2P control mage :/
MrKillswitch88
And earlier we had Patron Warrior which wasn't aggro but was cheap and effective thus it dominated the ladder.
While adventure expansions are cheap and acessible to F2P the pack expansions are the problem. People will craft epic/legendaries only for relatively cheap and unbalanced decks like secret pally.
While formats were adressing the case with reducing number of "pack expansions" collected needed to have "full arsenal" it flushed down to the toilet GvG collection which many older F2P players had - arena was giving only GvG packs for quite sometime - and they had holes in classic for the exact same reason. Also by reducing card pool they reduced the chance of creating something interesting but non aggro out of scraps.
In the end i think that until F2P players will get enough Whispers packs they will either have to play aggro or wild.
+Fartuess
Once again F2P can do control if they are willing to make decks of their own and that is what I have been doing since GVG first came out. It isn't always easy or fun but one learns a Lot and becomes a better player despite playing scrap decks. Been playing with scraps since then and eventually I cobble together something interesting. Just doing 40 gold daily quests by only playing every two or three days (still log to reroll the rubbish) and put brawl to use. A free pack and 300 to 400+ easy gold a week depending on what dailies I get solves the issue of not being able to get packs. Completed NAXX and LOE without spending a dime!
+MrKillswitch88 I just but adventures and packs through doing quests due to how unlucky I am with drafts (wisp,target dummy or murloc raider really blizzard) and over the past year I got 2 expansion I got the rest of naxx seeing as how I was already up to the final boss and then league of explorers and built a really good Reno Mage list that beats a load of decks if I'm havi a bad day I'd just go to my freeze Mage deck with that deck It doesn't really matter whether I draw badly seeing as how I draw so much burn I can kill them by turn 10 and with the amount of freeze effects survive till then so I've never really had a bad time against aggro even turn 6 lethal aggro decks
kripp should play more face hunter decks, we could learn real well from him with that.
I heard Kripp was aggro in the bed.
Early win condition if you know what I'm saying
+Alex Nguyen He likes to build up the control slowly and when his opponent is fed up and just about to conced he punishes his opponent with a combo and hits hard so he wins
+Alex Nguyen face is the place
+12340mam There is a reason Nozdormu is Kripp's favorite card. Both only last 15 seconds.
+Alex Nguyen your waifu is shit tho
As a casual player without a lot of money, I'm totally using this deck. I named it, "Kripp's Win More". Thanks Kripp!
5 damage per turn can make a pretty good difference...
But what does 5 damage per turn?
*****
that was my attempt at a joke
ofc its ice rager
its 3 am and i cant sleep anymore without listening to your voice , not that you are boring but your voice is magical
yeah that's exactly why i stopped playing Hearthstone. With the new expansion i had hope, but few days later i met zoo, zoo, zoo, aggro shamy, zoo, zoo, aggro shamy, aggro shamy, eboladin, facehunter, zoo, zoo, aggro shamy, eboladin...you get the point. Sometimes i meet other control decks and have a great time, but that's not worth my time for a 1/10 great experience with a fun game that makes me actually think what i'm doing instead of hoping the best.
Control paladin is the top deck right now, and i just played vs a control shaman with frost shock , at rank 20 legend. If you know what youre doing you can play control and beat everything
+Punxsu stop playing your greedy control decks then and you might not only face aggro lmao
+Punxsu Start asking the Devs to make it so you can ban facing a certain class.
Don't like reno warlock or rush warlock? Bam they are gone. Don't like rush shaman, or face hunter? Bam they are gone.
Although realistically you would only be able to ban one class at a time, so it wouldn't stop all rush decks if you hate those, or it wouldn't stop you from facing all the control decks if you hate those.
Unless they made all decks with enough high level minions be considered control, and all decks with a bunch of low level minions be considered rush and you ban based on rush or control.
So instead of banning 1 out of 9 classes, you would effectively ban facing 50% (assuming rush and control are split 50/50, or in your example 10/90) of all the decks on the ladder, making it much more likely for mirror match-ups to happen in terms of rush vs rush and control vs control.
+Punxsu I used to play a lot of rogue and control decks, but yeah, zoo/aggro everywhere
I made a zoo deck last night and went up 3 ranks (17 - 14) in less than an hour haha
Unranked is so much more fun now
+Remy Lebeau This is not a well thought out idea at all. It would wreck the meta game and make a lot of deck out of control unbeatable. Take freeze mage for example. I would say that freeze mage has a ton of good match ups (over 50%) but has an absolutely terrible match up against control warrior. So if freeze mage got big again a lot of high level players would switch to warrior to shut them down. Now consider if the mage could ban out the warrior and never play against it. Well now that mage will never que into its bad match-up (warrior) and only que into games that it has a 50% or more win rate against. So its either you play warrior and never play a mage or play another class and get wrecked by freeze mage. Im only using freeze mage as an example here but hopefully you get the idea.
The slow control meta we've all been waiting for is here.
+Arrakiz666 It was here, for a few days after the expansion. People were experimenting with all the old gods, and most of the games I played were decided at the 10+ turns. After that, polished cancer decks appeared on Hearthpwn and it reverted back into aggro meta, as if nothing happened.
aaaaaaaand it's gone in a week.
They laughed at me when I said aggro would still be strong in Standard.
I laugh at your comment because it is just so cringe worthy
+hotdudeftw nice b8 m8
+hotdudeftw DAE CRINGE? XDDD
People who laughed at you were most likely idiots
+Barbaryotaku It probably just the way you talk.
a common phrase in magic is "There's no such thing as a wrong threat; only a wrong answer."I feel like that wraps out what you're saying in the beginning of this video
There's just not enough mass removal and what mass removal there is, isn't good enough. Players should be afraid to overcommit to a board, but aggro decks can basically dump their hands with zero fear.
i think that an other big problem is the disparition of antique healbot and deathlord
I don't think you need board clears I think you need neutral aggro punishers, that have decent stat lines.
1.) a version is a mind control tech like card. 3/3 stats for 3 mana if your opponent has 2 or more minions that cost 2 or less stars take control of 1 of them.
2.) a reverse and buffed Gormok the Impaler. 4/4 stats for 4 mana if your opponent has 3 or more minions deal 4 damage
3.) a version of Lights Champion for low stared minions plus some sort of buffed effect and nerfed stats. 2/3 stats for 3 mana either silence and deal 2 damage to a minion with 2 or less attack or 2 or less stars. Possibly 2/3 stats for 3 mana silence all 3 mana or less minions.
So I'm basically saying broken neutral effects directly targeted at aggro decks will give people various ways to punish that play style on a consistent basis.
+TheMrParagon Elaborating on some of the cost and effects a 3 mana minion that targets decks that have 2 cards out by turn 2 is extremely powerful against aggro decks and you don't have to fear it will take a ragnaros or sylvanas. In early game this would be a huge swing making aggro affraid to flood the board and presenting a huge consiquence if they do.
A Gormok that gives you a powerful effect if you are behind on the board instead of already in control of the board. On turn 4 this will be powerful for a matchup that is onsided and can help bring you back without swinging the board in a ridiculus manar. It's also more powerfull on minions with less than 4 health
a silence effect that gets rid of a low cost minion and prevents deathrattles
or a silence effect that can remove many field buff effects and create an opportunity to clear the board without having buffed health ruin you or a deathrattle ruining you. Both of these effects are targeted at the many times when you have a card that would have saved you but the deathrattle or the Coldlight Seer have screwed you.
+TheMrParagon This is really constructive idea, and I think it would work and make hearthstone less aggro dominant game. That's why it won't ever happen. Aggro driven game attracts wider range of people in eyes of Blizzard, and their goal is to make the game as fast as possible and more "fun" (meaning more flame juggler / fiery bat uncontrollable RNG effects). This is the way it is and it will ever be, unfortunately.
***** well if you look at the nature of the cards the are imagined to be on curve answers to aggro at the beginning stages of the game when most control decks only have one or two answers at given times these give additional answers that increase your chance of dealing with a difficult situation before it gets out of hand.
The problem with MCT is that it normally has no effect on turn 3. My MCT like idea turns a board that is a 2/1 and a 3/2 in your opponents favor because he had a turn 1 play and a turn 2 play into a 2/1 3/3 vs a 3/2 in your favor. Also it isn't super overpowered because it has little to no affect against other control decks which don't usually have multiple small minions in the late game.
The Gormok card can help if you and your opponent have big boards but normally one person has the initiative this helps balance the board without completely destroying them like unleash the hounds.
The silence card will probably be the best out of the three if it has the field silence but it still hurts aggro more than any other because they rely on buffs to deal damage and deathrattle to keep the board against board clear.
So can they make Aggro better yes but, it's easier for a control deck which has minions with various mana counts to avoid these powerful cards than aggro decks which 90% of their minions are below 3 mana.
Spot on, had exactly the same conclusion yesterday.
A big part of the problem is that there aren't many big cards that are good that aren't legendaries, so people have less of a reason to make control decks if they're F2P.
Watching this made me cry for Hearthstone and Kripp
explosive sheep and unstable ghoul, i miss you guys...
+CrzyLion Healbot
+Miguel Angel Ruiz Conde and belcher.. honestly though i dont even know how to win vs freeze mage any more without healbot
+CrzyLion pressure them more, now that mad scientist is gone it's much harder to get iceblock
Atlas sure but what i meant is that it comes down to: do i have a slow deck, yes? good starting hand, no? concede.
+CrzyLion prety much is it. What im doing is going full Reno unless Im playing a clases with good healings.There s no way to survive any fast deck just with vendors and farseers.
Reminds me when I receive "The Meek Shall Inherit" quest. I usuallly build a Warlock deck with only 1 and 2 drops in it, quite similar to this one in the video. Surprisingly I often find myself easily winning the first three or four games in a row.
Hearthstone's mana system stops control decks as we know them from existing because they can't go bigger than aggro decks, since aggro decks will get to 10 mana on turn 10 just as well. That's why Dr Boom was in every deck: it didn't matter what your plan was, you can cast it on turn 7 anyway.
+arcengal Control is almost always more powerful in the late game than aggro due board clears and having more valuable minions, when aggro runs out of steam it's game over. After turn 10 aggro has used a good number of it's threats already and good control deck still has plenty of big threats and answers in the deck. Shame that Blizzard didn't nerf divine favor, that card punishes for good control play.
+arcengal Druid can do that with the ramp, that's why it is and has been THE facehunter counter.
+arcengal noob
Ya no. Aggro decks don't need to go to trun 10 or else they have already lost, you have no idea what your talking about
+arcengal Control decks in HS are "bigger" than aggro decks in that they have bigger minions and spells. It's not about the mana, it's about the value per card at that point. That's why we talk about aggro decks "running out of steam" and control decks "stabilizing" - as soon as the game hits that tipping point it's a guaranteed win for the control player.
Is it just me or krip seems really nice on the intro of every video, and then seems like a total different guy when he is playing?
Who agrees that Blizzard should make all heroes have 40 health?
60 and its a deal
+Amram Amselem make alexstrasza even more op seemsgood
+MechaKnightz Then change Alexstrasza aswell to make the health 20
me
+MechaKnightz then make it 20 instead of 15
In this video: Kripp wins some games at rank 16.
+Phyrexious
And fights against refined netdecks with very strong anti-aggro tech playing their hand 95% like a pro would do, dying due to the nature of their hand.
+Phyrexious Do you think decks are different at higher ranks? These are supposed to be "the meta", aka. the best decks available.
+Phyrexious that's about as high as you get with free to play accounts before you run into the pay-to-win wall
+EvilNinjadude Some decks *are* definitely better or worse at different ranks. The meta *is* different at different ranks.
Especially at legend, people start playing some wacky decks to counter a very specific type of meta.
Heartstone is basically a game of rock-paper-scissor. If you climb to rank 5 with Scissor, chances are you're gonna start facing a lot of Rocks at some point.
None of the three options are inherently better, each has a 33% win chance. The only difference that determines the outcome of your success is what your opponent plays. And that frequency of decks - which we call the meta - is different at different ranks.
*****
I know the meta isn't really aged and refined enough to have reached a stable state at this point in time, but would you say the Power of aggro decks even at high ranks is within reason?
Kripp preaching to the choir here, down with big aggro!
Skipperino Kripperino 4:23
Thanks you literally saved my life
+NumdegasedUHC I used your services, though I was not proud of it, I looked to the Commenterinos to find Skipperino Kripperino, but alas he was misserino.
Spreading madness is an insane board clear @Kripparrian
Who else thought for even 1 second that standard would fix the Ebola meta game ResidentSleeper fun game blizzard
It did kinda. We have way less cancerous decks around now.
It's actually not as bad as I expected. With Healbot and Belcher gone I was prepared to lose every game on turn 3 to some Face Shaman. Luckily you can usually survive until turn 5 Kappa Keepo
+All Hail Mafakas I'm super happy secret/murloc paladin is dead, other than that the meta is just as cancer as it was before the update.
+Allu Flow murloc pally is not dead mate.
+Avatar HA belcher at least stopped aggro
So now that I know about this "Meta Snapshot" stuff, I can netdeck even easier! Thanks for spreading the cancer Kripp! :D
this is exactly why MTG is still a much better game. early game removal and board clears that actually let you deal with agro and no one deck archetype is better than the rest.
+Abeltensor
>you only have 20 health
>MTG is boring as fuck
>also expensive as fuck
>try to play big card
>opponent says fuck you and card dies before existing
imagine if when you played cthun your opponent could play a fuck you card and destroy it before the battlecry triggers. That's MTG
Just wanted to say that I don't regret crafting your fatigue warrior deck list even though i have like a 40% winrate at rank 16 with it... it took all the dust i had saved since im a f2p player, but a single victory against another control deck means more to me than 5 defeats in a row against aggro.
Kripp was right. They needed to change Alexstraza to "Set player Hp to 20". Better healing and prevents stupid crap like this first game.
Kripparrian, you ran the "Cixah's miniatures" Paladin deck for Blizzcon 2013. Which ran Leper Gnome, Argent squires, Abusive Sergeants and Divine Favour. Do you think you ran an aggressive deck in a tournament in order to win?
+Moderation Gaming Yeah thats what this entire video is about. Aggro is bonkers. Also thats irrelevant in a way, since thats a tournament. Ladder is hardley blizzcon.
Any chance blizzard will ever address this or do they want their game to have a talent-less easy mode meta that takes all thought and fun out of the game?
Getting legend isn't handed out.... It takes more skill than just luck...
+Ryan Ianaro no it doesn't lmao. You can play aggro or zoo to legend with zero thought.
Legend players don't know control EleGiggle
+MorroWolf dude, aggro deck is around 1000 dust (+ most of the cards are the same for all classes) and general control deck is....6,8,10k (even more for legendary heavy decks)...most people don't pay for cards and that means they literally can't play anything else because the can only afford the super cheap and effective aggro decks
+Dante Vazquez-Marentes Have you tried playing anything to Legend? The final climb is brutal, it doesn't really matter what you're playing at that point.
+Dante Vazquez-Marentes If you use zero thought playing zoo you are a really bad zoo player. Many of the best players agree zoo is one of the if not the highest skill cap deck in the game
BabyRage Raniaaa the baby is crying BabyRage
i think the only awy to resolve this isn`t by getting board clears but changing the ladder. in tounaments we normally see an equilibrium betwwen aggro midrange and control, but in ladder we have this problems that you listed. i`m not saying to make something like tournaments in ladder, that seems stupid, but the ladder mechanics needs to be remade.
+Lucas Iron de Souza Camargo
Disagree, why does mtg get 4 mana kill everything cards? when we have to pay 4-5 to do 2-3 damage to all minions? the ladder is fine...the balance of archtypes isnt, we need a balance.....
D Br
??????????
+D Br Time to bring back Dr. Balance!..wait
I don't know why, but him saying "I thought you automatically start with a Tunnel Trogg in your hand as a shaman, wtf", I actually laughed so hard, my teeth fell out. Hearthstone is unfortunately the only thing we can play in this hospital.
What would a Pig say if it could talk?
"Hey, guys, How's it going, Kripparian here."
+L0LWTF1337 Must have taken a lot of effort to make a joke that bad.
+SoulerVids uuh got'em
+SoulerVids ikr?
Is this scientifically proven?
*potato
There's a common phrase used in Magic the Gathering when discussing aggro vs. control:
"There are no wrong threats, just wrong answers"
Seems to encapsulate what Kripp's getting at. An aggro deck can play whatever cards it wants, as long as it's pressuring the opponent, it's good. A control/midrange strategy has to build with the right answers for the meta, as well as drawing those cards when relevant.
See the thing most of the aggro supporters don't get is that control no longer has those answers while aggro got too many value cards.
12:14 Suomi Perkele
+H-GAMES KYLLÄ!!!!!!
+H-GAMES Torille
torilla tavattan ;)
Torilla tavataan
+1998SIMOMEGA ei ikinä PERKELE
what about if blizz came up with a limit to how many 1 and 2 drops we can have on our decks?
+André Rufo some kind of forced curve for ladder would be nice.. like, you have to have at least X cards that cost Y or more, and at least C cards that cost B or less
Mages are so Fun and Interactive :=)
I had this exact thought today. I played MTG for years and the reason control decks usually take over the standard meta is because they're more consistent than aggro decks. But in Hearthstone it feels way easier to get wrecked by a bad draw with control or midrange than aggro. I've lost track of the number of times I've had a one-of Old God in my hand and died 5 turns before I could cast it because I couldn't stabilize fast enough.
8:03 Conceded just before the opponent missed lethal by clearing...
+Castle1558 He was BMing. Nobody is stupid enough to miss lethal there.
He had no mana left. Also, it does happen, getting too focused on being defensive.
***** Kripp would have lost anyways. It wasn't worth playing anymore, that's why he conceded.
*****
Yeah, my bad. It was just before - not after - it's been corrected. Although, he also could've noticed the arrow aiming at the Fire Elemental just before he hit Concede. The play was visibly in motion, even though it hadn't been executed.
I wasn't saying Kripp did anything wrong. I was actually pointing out how terrible the missed lethal was. It's not like you expect your opponent to overlook something that obvious. It would've left him at 2 health.
He may have lost on the next turn, but there was also the chance of topdecking Healing Wave.
Hey Krip I know your famous and have a lot of fans. But how about the idea of a board clear with silence involved. Think about it. Silence your opponent minions first with death rattles that let them spawn minions but that gets silenced along being cleared without letting them be revived or spawn a different minion.
I'm the real Kripp this guy is an imposter
Had a similar issue today, playing a warlock, decided to keep hellfire, first round, played that little 2/1 murloc that summons a 1/1, second round he did the same, third round warleader... really wishing I had that hellifire at that time, next turn he ... crap I don't remember 2 more murlocs, and I was dead.
+Mike B I have killed someone on turn 3 with pure Murlocs. Yes, turn 3! You can deal up to 52 damage by this time if you go second and draw perfectly.
Yeah more board clears would work. Or make decks have 40 cards rather than 30 and add an extra card to each starting hand; that would allow players to dedicate more of their deck to cards that deal well with aggro, without changing the fundamental idea of the deck, and have more chances to draw said cards, and Blizzard would not have to go over every single card in standard mode with a fine toothed comb to actually balance the game. On top of that, face hunters would have more cards to draw and hit face with, so aggro players will have nothing to complain about. In the case that those aggro players do try to complain, we can point back to this thought process and call them whiny bitches, then ignore their mindless drivel they call a 'valid argument'. Makes me wonder if a "40 card constructed deck Tavern Brawl" would work well or not.
+theStonerKid69 That's actually a great idea. Its either this, raise health totals to 40ish or nerf one drops.
+theStonerKid69 make it 7 starting card s 60 card decks and call the game Magic
unixtreme Yeah, and maybe make all the mana crystals actually be cards that you need to put in your deck...actually, that sounds like an awful waste of space. Scratch that idea.
11:34, misplay. should be placed in between 7/7 and egg to trigger it with a possible flametongue.
Lol, favorite part "time to win hearthstone", picks all aggro cards
I agree with you. As someone that doesn't spend any money in Hearthstone having an average aggressive in Hearthstone can win you games.
Aggro is the Cancer of Hearthstone, you cant defeat it and it wont go away
And it will be the death of the game, just like cancer.
+Lukebomber Gaming Or just turn the game off.
Even chemo Jackson couldn't defeat it
Beat up on rank 16s almost halfway through the month, gj point proven aggro is insane. lol Kripp never change.
I think the biggest difference is that Midrange and Control are usually more dust costly decks, whereas Aggro is usually really dang cheap. I can kinda understand *why* it's that way, but we can see the issue with this in ladder pretty easily. So much Aggro because it's cheap and effective, and not nearly enough Control to counter it because it costs a lot more to make those decks.
+Mathmachine i mean, by nature you'll see more aggro because aggro games are faster therefore they are queueing more often. if it was a 40/60 aggro/control split i bet the meta would still be mostly aggro games
+Mathmachine Well it was highlighted pretty well how control "counters" aggro in this video.
+Mathmachine AND when you actually do make a good control deck, it's not usually as good/consistent as aggro. it's gotten a bit better in standard now that creeper and shredder are out, and most neutral minions actually die when you kill them, but still, without more and better (and more common) control tools, aggro will pretty much always have a leg up on control.
Sonic Shoe With shredder, creeper and egg gone the boards may now be easier to clear. But with some of the cards aggro got now it is a lot harder to survive long enough to clear or survive after you cleared.
liang dar yeah... not being able to come "back from the junk heap" after eating 11 damage from a 3mana 5 health minion that suddenly spiked to 9 attack (glares disapprovingly at darkshire councilman) hurts quite a bit. the apothecary doesn't even come close to being able to fill the void left by healbot when it comes to recovery tools.
Kripp ,I totally agree, I'm a free to play player and i like playing control but I have to play aggro because i just don't have the cards to make an okay control deck, my options are getting rekt playing a bad control deck or getting 80%-85% win rate with zoo that requires no legendaries and 1-2 epics.
We need something like Shadow Word: Horror, but make it 3 mana and 3 or less attack.
+Peter Pan Na that would make agro unplayable.
+BignattyBrubz hue so?
+BignattyBrubz hue well, that's the point
+Kenan Dedic when aggro decks become unplayable, hs will be doomed
+Atlas slowed meta... control ruling the meta.... no face tards ..... Negatives? Aggro gone? Is it really a negative?
I cant sleep... So ill watch some kripp!
Aggro is a cancer that is killing this game.
Indeed!
+hassanReal It's cheap and affordable. Ppl who don't spend 200$ every xpack don't have every single leg needed to build all control decks unless they play for a year+ or so. Nzoth control Paly vs Zoo lock... zoo costs FOUR times less and performs about the same on win\loose ratio. Agro is more cost efficient and that's why most play agro.
+hassanReal Its also the only archetype for people who don't want to drop 20 bucks for a few cards per adventure to play.
+hassanReal Better than getting your board frozen turn after turn by a Freeze Mage.
+Xerxes Break No, it isnt. Agaisnt Freezd mage it is really mostly a game if skill where you need to predict his plays. Predicting Alex is the key, and longer you can prevent them from playing it will win you the game. Also turn when to use loatheb was really important but that counter play doesnt exist anymore. But it is still lot better than mindless zoo games.
Story of my live! You call it your free account, I call it my main account.
Since the expansion went out, I can't build any working smart deck. Much fun.
Someone send this vid to Blizzard
+Hypervizzle And prove that Kripp have problems to win games with an own midrange deck at rank 16?
And prove you're an asshat?
Tiny Buzzard
I love watching you man!
3/3 times enemy Rogue will topdeck FoK two times in a row when I'm playing zoo
+Dracovoid Glad to hear it.
Agreed. Love seeing these fucking Zoo bots getting wrecked.
Hope the rouge gives you cancer too.
Fun and interactive they said. Inb4 pass for 5 turns and die to spell burst.
I can't even play ranked without netdecking or else I get rekt by zoo and aggro shaman. Nice game Blizzard.
Hen you are most likely bad at deck building, you can quite easily get to 10-5 with home made decks,THAT is if your deck is good
+Atlas then*
+Xerxes Break
Play your own shitty aggro then?
This game is so ResidentSleeper now days no variety
+Xerxes Break how does aggro or zoo have any relation with net decking or not? The ONLY reason to ever need to netdeck is that your deck buildings skills suck.
4:25 when the opponent topdeck: how is he so lucky?when Krepo topdecks: thats something
Thats true
Why this dude is not on blzz design team is beyond me...
+Filip Downar blizz only cares abt the $$$
+deathkser BSHT, ur talking about EA, blizz is a good game company. HS never cost me a penny.
Fa Mulan
I disagree, I don't own all the cards and have made it to legend 312 with a cheap hunter aggro deck before and can consistently make it to rank 3 every season. It's about two months since the expansion came out and I've collected most of the cards (barring legendaries) and only need to craft a few epics (that I don't even want), this is from playing about 4-5 days a week for about 1hr-2hrs a time. This few month window after an expansion is the only time paying players get their advantage over everyone else and if they are paying, let them, it just means that I'm a more skillful player if I can still beat them with their ultimate card decks. Also, personally I think cheap aggro decks are often much better anyway and because of that the game is a little broken, so...
Fa Mulan
Yeah it costs 1600 dust which you get in about a month from disenchanting if you do quests and spend ur cash on arena. It's not hard it just takes time. I've got about 5k dust banked up and I'm not planning on using it since I got most of the legendaries I want doing what I said above and hey, you might get lucky and open a deck with the leg. u need, though I wouldn't count on that... But surely it's more fun to work your way to it than buy it anyway, that's what games used to be about when I was growing up, time invested = worthy reward.
Also, I make all my own decks, u can say meta flavour of the month if you want, but when I actually needed cards it was more a case of "Okay, so I've got these good cards, what pairs nicely with them". It's more fun to make an amazing deck out of cards you might not use cus u got all the best ones anyway... and about cards like Sylv. there is always a cheap solution for a super card like that, when I was coming up against it I always had an owl waiting or I'd be upset, simple... Just the way the cookie crumbles with RNG.
Mill deck with Nat, the Darkfisher? would be funfun to watch :D
Can't mill an aggro deck. Can only mill control decks.
New Card text: Discover a Board Clear card. do et.
+BurazSC2 every dmg spell can be a boardclear. so basically, your card just says: discover a spell that is able to dmg a minion.
Did u ment AoE?
+TheRapie Do you have dementia
Ronan your opponent played a 3/2 minions. you play frostbolt. you cleared bord. your frostbolt was a boardclear. end of story
***** definitely dementia
I have created many personal decks. My control decks generally are a lot better than my aggro deck. But that is because I don't like to play aggro, so my aggro decks suck (unless they are more combo or controll-ish but fast).
Control deck aren't so difficult to create as long as you can find some kind of win condition and some cards to counter aggro.
Combo decks arent' so difficult either if you find a combo that is powerful enough to design your deck around it.
The kind of deck I find the most difficult to create are mid/tempo decks. It is very difficult to create a mid deck that doesn't suck against aggro and that is fast enough to win before control. The only excpetion to this is dragon priest, which is naturally anti-aggro and very fast against control. That is why I love to play my own variant of dragon priest.
Would you check out Overwatch?
He didn't like it that much in the alpha
he said he will check it on launch
+Schmidteren He did. He hated it.
There are two major flaws to Hearthstone at the moment that make aggro decks so strong as well.
1: Consistency
With aggro decks playing to a lower overall curve it is much easier to draw into a solid opening hand with the critical 1-2-3 curve that wins a ton of games. If you're able to play on each turn and your opponent can't your board is developed and as their is literally no real ramp (outside of druid) or efficient board clears then or useful effects like scry (being able to set up the answer you need in the nick of time) the options a control player has are quite limited.
There was a reason that Sludge Belcher was an auto-include in every SINGLE control deck outside of certain win-conditions like Freeze Mage. It's because he was an EFFICIENT card that allowed for control decks to limp into the late game. Keep in mind that is the same reason that Piloted Shredder and Dr. Boom were both very popular as well. They were sizeable bodies that provided a solid problem for your opponent and could force awkward and messy trades or a waste of a lot of resources. With the control and mid-range decks having to play on the back-foot from turn one you need FANTASTIC cards to play catch-up or at least fight efficiently with until you could get to your game-plan.
Even some of the most efficient board clears often are drawn either too late or a piece is missing to stop aggro in their tracks. This of course leads to losses more often then not unless the aggro player stumbles or misplays and the higher rank you go the less likely that's going to happen. Nevermind the board clears that are lower priced are impossible to use as they just don't do enough or require spellpower minions (badly priced as they are) to be drawn.
2. Hand and Deck Size. Once upon a time Magic did toy with a forty-card deck limit and that got quickly burned to the ground. Why? Because it's so damn easy to draw consistently on a smaller deck then a larger one. This means you are more likely to hit game-winning combinations or continue to turn up the pressure until your opponent cracks. Fancy big critters means nothing if your opponent is consistently brutalizing you into the ground. Want a game that's caters to aggro look no further then Yugioh and how it's devolved into I k33l you faster.
This brings a second issue in starting hand-size which is also a double-edged sword. On the one hand a larger hand size would potentially give mid-range and control a better overall chance in drawing their answers. That also means aggro is even MORE likely to curve out right which means if you don't have the answer in hand you go splat period.
===
Does aggression require thinking? Yes it does. It requires you to understand when to trade and when to just go for the kill to keep your opponent making inefficient plays because they're on a timer now. Granted I'll be the first to admit I have less of a headache playing my Shockadin, Aggro Shaman, and Zoolock lists at the higher ranks then my Control Warrior, Mid-Range Shaman, N'Zoth Paladin, and Dragon Priest.
+KeeperOf42 Hearthstone is fundamentally flawed in that it allows the attacker to choose who they attack with no input from the opponent (see MTG and the fact you can block minions with bigger minions). Even if it wasn't like MTG in that minions heal at the end of the turn, being able to block face hunter's or zoolock's minions with your bigger ones would literally fucking destroy them and make control viable.
Yes, this would make control weaker because Paladin and Shaman are built in a way with their hero powers that would make your massive minions pretty much useless, but this all falls back to the idea that Hearthstone is built for aggressive decks and RNG decks only. Control is basically a fucking joke outside of Freeze Mage or Control Warrior (and even then those decks get rekt ~50% of the time by retarded aggro decks playing on curve).
8:04 Concedes -> Opponent misses lethal #NeverLucky
Didn't matter that he lost lethal, the only thing that couldove saved kripp was the luckiest topdeck series in his life even then the shaman probably could have done two damage
Opponent didn't miss lethal, it was stage one of the extended pre-victory bm
Good point by Kripp. I'd love to play control warrior but fuck me I have to craft shield slams, brawls, gorehowl or grommash. With priest is a little bit easier at least. If I didn't have got Sylvannas and Baron Geddon as my two first legendaries from free packs it would have been almost impossible to play successfully control and even then, partially. People who don't spend money they'll always have to play aggro, the grinding to get the cards is just too much.
Well you have so much lucky cause when I play Aggro, they always have board clear just in time...yes it's a 50/50 but how lucky you are?
This is exactly why I made a C'Thun Druid. It has big taunts that can survive an aggro apocalypse.
30 health is too little. By the time control or midrange stabilizes, it doesnt matter, because the aggro has burst and/or fucking hunter hero power.
Yeah 30 is too small for how refined these aggro bullshit are. 40 health would make for a much better experience for all.
+TheGamer583 Or you know antique healbot #2
When that shaman top decked flametongue, he attacked the wolf into the fire elemental, he missed lethal right? Why did Kripp concede?
auchanai from evolve + healing totem = rip
pls try and make a good bloodlust shjaman :)) its so fun to play but i have a hard time refining those decks
I think the simplest solution to this is to simply make your hero's health, 40
+Imrhankhan Shajahan That would completely destroy combo decks.
+Da Bx Are there really any left? Every time we assemble a good one, Blizzard nerfs either the core or the hammer that drops on the opponent
Isn't this the "core" problem of Heartstone ? I don't remember other trades/collectibles cards games (Duel of Champion, or Magic the Gathering, ...) having this kind of issue this much !
Kripp is just wrong here. A control deck isn't just one where you cut a couple early drops and load up on late drops - that's just greedy and dumb. A control deck is one with an excess of early game efficient cards and a single, narrow, incredibly card efficient end game condition. The whole point of control is to collapse your win condition into as few high value cards as possible, allowing the rest of your deck to be spent negating the opponents win condition. Good control decks: Nzoth Paladin (win condition is 2 cards, Nzoth Tirion), Freeze Mage (win condition is a handful of burn that doubles as board control), Control Warrior (win condition is Justicar and fatigue), Renolock (win condition is 3 cards, Leeroy PO Faceless Manipulator). In each of these cases, the ENTIRE rest of the deck is dedicated to stalling or negating opposing threats. That is how control should work.
Kripps view is that control is just a standard deck shell minus early drops plus a couple board clears plus a bunch of late game. But that's just bad design. The whole reason you play control is so that your win condition can be a single card or multi card combo. This allows the rest of your deck to function just as a way to get you to that win condition of a couple of high value cards. Aggro on the other hand plays a ton of cards that advance the win condition, none of which individually do so.
A control deck is not one with an excess of early game, that is an aggro deck. A control deck needs to be balanced with a nice downhill curve that allows you to play on curve.
+HIGHSCORE AAA "early efficient cards" for example, ardor peace keeper, fiery war axe, zombie chow if we are talking about wild
a good take. however we have seen how deathrattle paladin negated the subpar aggro deck.
+Johnny Bombardak I guess that's why those players are still rank 17
the zoos, the face shamans, the aggro paladins. those are the decks used to swiftly climb to the top. i got tired of getting railroaded by face shamans, so i created a murloc aggro pally. 90/50 wins/loses~10hours later i was legend.
The little twilight arcanist or whatever he's called (2/2 deal 1 damage to all enemy minions) would seem to be a good anti-agro card, until you actually try playing it against say, a tempo mage and realise you need another 2 damage to clear the two mana wyrms they always draw immediately.
4:22
Krip finally learned the lesson that every f2p player learned a while ago
This is why i'm pretty much done with Hearthstone until the next expansion. I've logged in about 5 times since The Old gods released. It just isn't fun anymore.
Then you won't be logging back in anytime soon because meta will always favour aggro
+MorbidMaximus Just uninstall the game if that is your logic because Hearthstone will always be about aggro..
+Gamefreak Good idea
Dude how did you get such an awesome name and logo? Like what games did you play before this that led to the whole "Kripparrian" persona?
He did D3, and there was other stuff but I completely forget those days
also you're playing rank 15+ ... no one knows how to mulligan at those ranks. You can't make any sort of serious conjeture from your experiences at those ranks.
+Rotan Bosson Kripp is a good and well known Hearthstone player. This means people expect him to have an opinion on what's going on in the game at the moment. He also says 'in my experience'. That's not presenting a 'serious conjecture'. What is a serious conjecture is 'no one knows how to mulligan at those ranks'. If you are beyond those ranks, then you have even less idea about what goes on in rank 15+.
dont know how to mulligan and youre up against the elephant elemental hooded troll guy, it seems? here: 1) click all cards you cant play before or on turn 3 2) hope to get cards you can play before or on turn 3 **** Special Exception Warning!!!!** I dont mean for this to be confusing, but if the card says "to all minions" then keep it!!!!!
I heard Firebat say the opposite, that Aggro decks are harder to make. I thought it was pretty weird and I'm with Kripp on this one.
Tournament perspective as opposed to ladder. One shot at beating a deck versus an afternoon of facerolling in an attempt to come out net positive, it's like night and day.
@everyone is there any way this can actualy be rectified without major changes to the fundimentals of the game? e.g;Starting health
But aggro is still fucking annoying to play against, and not satisfying to play.
Atleast in my opinion.
+KnucklesR2 Yep. Made some aggro decks for quests, it's so annoying to play them even though the decks are good. I much prefer trying to scrape together and make work a control or fun Yogg Saron deck with the cards that I have.
I think the second run was Savjz free to play account according to google.
Balancestraza
+AmazingSpriter97
Given the speed that aggro plays I need to get that out on turn 4/5 just to heal /face palm. If shaman one needs "Balancestraza" by turn 2/3 :c
My biggest issue with hearthstone is that anyone who is relatively new basically can't participate in most of the deck building aspect of the game. People often point to arena to solve this issue, but I don't think its enough. Any thoughts on how to fix this? Personally I think being able to get full dust refunds for maybe a day or two after a card is crafted might go a long way. Hard issue though, most of the solutions could cut into blizzards profits.
Lol. Paskamyrsky. That's Finnish and translates to Shit Storm...
What if the heroes had 1 attack and would counter attack minions when attacked?
Wouldn't that make the situation worse, aggro decks now have gerantee 1 damge every turn
They mostly go aggro because they suck otherwise.
or they dont wanna spend tons of money on opening packs for dust and legendaries to make a control or midrange
took me since pre naxx to have some decent control decks and other f2p people havent been playing that long
+Michael Bell You are god damn right i got 5 with my cheap ass aggro mech mage. And every singletime after that there are handlocks,control warriors,fatigue warriors,oil rogues,aggro druids, that was before the oldgods
I just played old face hunter with some small changes bc of nerfs and it still freaking works. Just went 7-2 with it in ranked. The aggro shit is sickening
This has been my biggest complaint about Hearthstone for a long time. I want to experiment with mid-range/control, I need to tweek my deck and try new things. (and still get good draws). But this is all but impossible if I don't own ALL the cards! I'm very far from free to play, and it still feels like an uphill battle. Anyone with less funds are basically forced to play aggro. Only solution I see without major changes to a large assortment of cards is to increase starting hp to 35-40.
in a nutshell why I dont play hs anymore. Kripp is still fun to watch though.