i dont know man, i get your point , and i can follow the logic, but as a black man, if lets say harry or ethan said the nword with the hard r because they saw the letters and couldnt think of anything else id still be pissed. so i dont want to be a hypocrite and say oh yeah this is fine because i dont feel offended by it. but aye man if you gave him the pass more power to him
I understand what you’re saying, but the n word is in a far different context in modern society then paki ever would be. Systemic racism towards black people is still an active problem today, due to many recent events, such as redlining in large cities, the war on drugs, segregation, and obviously slavery. We are still seeing issues from these events today and still live in a society where black people are systemically oppressed. The n word has a pretty direct link to those recent events which is what makes it such a bad word for other groups to use it. Paki on the other hand just doesn’t hold the same weight in todays world. Yes there’s still racist people obviously, but the systemic levels of racism just aren’t there, meaning the word just doesn’t carry much weight. Does this mean you can call everyone you know a paki? No, but in certain contexts it’s just not hate. You can say the word without it being so binary on if you’re racist or not. Also this still doesn’t account for people made uncomfortable by the word which is fair. If someone just said “I didn’t really like that he said it because it makes me uncomfortable” then that’s also fine. Just don’t act like the person is automatically a racist for saying it.
they’ve all admitted it was wrong, and tobi said to stop defending them on this, so i don’t get the insistence need to defend it. i’m glad he apologized and it seemed genuine. i’m not holding grudges or anything, but i feel like we’re at a point now where we can’t stop saying racial slurs for comedy points. it’s just unnecessary.
I literally said you shouldn't go throwing slurs around with no discretion. But the occasional harmless joke is fine. And yes I'd apply that standard to every slur. We need to stop treating this stuff like it's voldemort. We should be smart enough to understand context and subtext
@@Moosterton Who is "we?" People ranting on RUclips about how the other people ranting on RUclips are too sensitive (and not them)? I dig your videos and think your takes are earnest and thoughtful, but it's not productive to beat around the bush here, so I hope you're able to look past me being as blunt (but probably not as condescending) as you were in this video. It's not uncommon to hear ranty people unironically using the word snowflake who, when you break down the commentary, are actually the most triggered people in the room, and this video is particularly loud in that respect. The difference between you and the bearded guy is that, arguments/contents aside (only for a moment), his far less ranty RUclips rant is in service of something pretty uncontroversial - racials slurs can upset people. Your rant is because not everybody is ok with KSI using a racial slur. Maybe some people aren't being nuanced enough. I'll stipulate it for the sake of argument. Is that really the point worth making here, if there is one? Is that what the moral stance of the day is, to defend a millionaire RUclipsr from the hurtful bearded man speaking gently into a cell phone camera about how he found something they said to be offensive? I don't know, it's a weird look, especially as passionately as you do it. I get being annoyed by his characterization of people who defend it, but even when he's saying pretty reasonable stuff about how it's the people who have actually had that term used against them in an abusive manner who we should listen to to get a gauge for how appropriate the term is, your response is the facile "I asked my dad and he says it's ok, so what now?" This, right before demanding a logical argument from him - no sense of awareness whatsoever. What do you need an argument for? It's a racial slur, some people don't think they should be used or seen as acceptable. It's pretty straightforward. I might be ok with any number of uses of any number of slurs in any number of contexts. That doesn't mean everyone else needs to be. I wasn't exactly offended by the clip, but the idea of sitting around and mocking someone who is wouldn't cross my mind. And what he was saying made sense. Who do you think has a more informed perspective about the history of a slur's usage, Jayden Smith or an old-timer who lived through the Civil Rights era? Because look, I don't know what your personal relationship with racism is or what your dad's is, but that shit can get pretty ugly, and can harm people socially and psychologically. Emotionally, dare I say, at risk of being mocked for acknowledging that making people feel like shit isn't actually a value-neutral act. It dehumanizes the subjects, both in the eyes of the subject and of the person using the slur. Me and my friends always had a good time joking about each others' races and ethnicities growing up - yes, not every time a slur or stereotype is mentioned = racism. That said, if someone heard it and was offended, we'd likely just apologize and move on our way - not sit there and mock them because they're not sufficiently appreciative of our edge. Which, is what KSI did. So I don't get why you're the one wearing the armor here. And as far as any arguments about 'but the olds who had that word used as a slur against them don't watch KSI,' my response is twofold. First, that slur has not reached its shelf date yet, by any means. It makes the rounds fairly well. Second, even if there aren't many people who have been affected by the word firsthand that see it, it's completely reasonable to be concerned about the normalization of the term, especially because it's not as taboo as other slurs. Some people need to be told it's not ok. I don't know, man, there is a lot of poor argumentation in here that I'm normally expect you to be dissecting rather than disseminating. Particularly the part where you're yelling about how if people experienced racism that's their "thing to deal with" (said Jayden to the Civil Rights activist?). Well they're dealing with it by sharing their experience, and your response is to give them a tongue lashing and complain that they're interfering with the "kids" (isn't he like 30?) having some fun. I'm not sure if it's more callous or obtuse. This comes off like much of the whining I heard maybe a little over ten years ago, when there were discussions about "hey, the gaming community might have a problem with calling people faggots," and a lot of people wanted to make passionate arguments about their intent. I believed many of them. While I didn't throw it around the way others did online, it was in my vocabulary as well, and I never used it with any discriminatory intent. That said, it was unambiguously hurting peoples' feelings, regardless of intent, so I grew the fuck up and stopped using it. It cost me nothing to do, and I didn't even need to sit around writing any video essays before undergoing the evolution that stopped me from potentially offending people who I wish no offense towards. The absence of the word in my vocabulary has not been any great strain on my life. I swear.
@@shokosugi2346 By "we" I mean broader society. It seems like the defacto position is for people to ignore context and call every usage of a slur 'bad' - it feels ridiculous to me. I don't mind if someone doesn't appreciate that kind of humour, or they don't particularly like hearing the word. That's fine. If you think it's a crappy joke, fine, criticize the joke. What I don't like is the huge moralizing around the topic, telling someone they SHOULD NOT be using that word under any circumstances, that it is "unacceptable" because their skin tone doesn't match the criteria to use this word. Ofc I know racism can get ugly lol. But that's kinda part of my point: this wasn't racism. With your example of apologizing to someone who overhears an edgy joke - I might do the same in an IRL situation, in no small part because it's just easier, they likely misunderstood me, and I don't want any physical conflict. On the internet though? Where they are going out of their way to consume content, where they can easily find the full context, and can just click away if it's really that upsetting to them? Nah, I would never apologize for using a word. If hearing a certain word, regardless of context, immediately makes someone feel bad, that's their shit to deal with. Go to therapy. I don't think it's fair to try and impose your sensibilities upon every entertainer. If you were to expand this rule, we would be accomodating for everyone's feelings on everything. Some people get upset at hearing swear words, or hearing God's name used in vain. It makes them feel bad. That's fine, everyone's entitled to their personal views and feelings. However, I would have no issue mocking someone who tries moralizing the topic, ascribing "ignorance" and ill intentions on those who do swear or say 'blasphemous' things in their content. I'm not saying a person needs to enjoy my sense of humour, or enjoy edgy jokes. What I'm saying is, unless you can demonstrate the ACTUAL harm to society (beyond "my personal feelings about this are negative"), then don't moralize about jokes like this. If KSI's joke had a decent chance to make his audience racist - then fine. But if you can't make a decent argument showing the path to actual harm, you have no moral authority. Is this the most important topic in the world? No. Do I need to spend time talking about this - probably not. Does this demonstrate a lack of nuance, and poor patterns of thinking which kinda annoys me, especially since I believe it is indicative of a flawed thought process which is likely to manifest in other harmful ways? Yes. That's why I talked about it. Plus I just find it interesting.
@@Moosterton That's not a de-facto position by any means. If it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all - not you and I, the guy with the beard, or whoever gave poor KSI a hard time on Twitter. It's 2023 and we're only finally addressing things like soccer players getting called monkeys (and maybe the occasional banana hurled at them on the pitch) fairly regularly. I'm sorry but (to run with the anecdote) when the sport's history looks back on that embarrassing phenomenon, videos like this might align you with the side that made passionate arguments about how people need to learn to take jokes. Not that there was even a joke involved in what KSI did - laughing while saying something does not a joke make. That's not to say I think you come from a place of bad intent at all, but I think maybe you lack some perspective that some others, who are concerned about the normalization of racial slurs and/or the effects certain language has had on marginalized communities who have been otherized (in-part) by the use of bigoted terminology have. That's nothing to be ashamed of. The most thoughtful, well-meaning people can't always wrap their heads around a phenomenon, and need to experience it in some proximity to appreciate it. Personally, I can remember times when brown taxi cab drivers, "meter maids" and bodega operators were called things like Pakis (or sand niggers or hajis or swamis or Ghandis) while being assaulted in a legal sense if not a colloquial one. Here, in NYC, most of the kids I grew up with in the various diverse neighborhoods where I went to school throughout my childhood weren't down with that when the rubber hit the road. Only most of them. Others inherited the casual condescension and stereotypes that was normalized among the adults in their lives, and kids who were from (in my specific neighborhoods) marginalized racial/ethnic backgrounds often internalized it their own way, and were very shy and reluctant to try to make friends or participate in things other students were doing. I saw it most keenly in the influx of Eastern European immigrants that arrived all at once in the year or two following the fall of the Berlin Wall. It's not just sticks and stones, my dude, and even if you think someone is getting slightly more flack than they should for using a certain word or phrase, I think it's worth balancing the consequences of that vs what happens on the far more frequent occasions where the pendulum swings the other way, both currently and historically - the latter of whose lenses this video looks even more misguided through. It's a situation where the pendulum was hanging in one direction globally for much of recorded history, and now that we're in a place where it can sometimes, barely, ever-so-briefly move to the other side of the center, a bunch of people want to make a big deal out of THAT, and call for all sorts of nuance to make sure we're at the EXACT center. As for your responses to my analogy of someone overhearing me being edgy with my friends, I think your response to it is completely backwards. If anything, my friends and I having a private conversation that someone overhears is where I might have a right to be indignant about strangers commenting on my words. When you (not you personally) put something out on the internet (or in print or visual media), particularly when you do it to attract eyeballs so that you can make $$$ off of what you're saying, THAT is when you should expect that people will respond to you. And if you enjoy it when times are good, and when your edginess gets you paid, I'm not interested in any fucking whining when you fuck up and piss someone off, or even when you don't fuck up and some people have criticism of what they perceive as your insensitivity to their race, culture or lifestyle. And if you (personally) have a problem with people like the bearded guy that you cited offering a criticism while recording his face, then I struggle to understand where you get off recording a video of your face criticizing him without a whiff of irony. To get back to the "not you personally" (the people being edgy for clicks), I'm reminded of these comedians who want to pose as mavericks, and who hold out comedy as this institution of uncomfortable truth told through art, and who claim to idolize controversial comedians who came before them - and then bitch and moan when things they say are controversial. Be the maverick if you're going to be the maverick, or at very least, don't turn into the same whiny, sensitive twats that you claim can't understand your craft and need to leave you alone. Critiques are valid and welcome even when they don't come in the form of a punchline. I feel like you understood this in a video about comedy you did in the past. Only we both agree that nobody is being canceled here, so I really don't get the problem. Anyway, to clarify in case you misunderstood one of my criticisms and weren't just misplacing it when you responded to it: it's not that this video isn't about a topic that's that important. It's that *within the topic covered*, in response to KSI using a slur and less-than 100% of people not having a problem with it, you chose to defend the point of view of least consequence, regardless of what you think of the guy whose specific arguments you highlighted for the purpose of disputing. The problem of racism is worse than the problem of RUclipsrs getting a few critical comments on Twitter - I don't think that's controversial to say. That the defense is mounted on a bunch of facile arguments and needlessly callous tone makes it that much more disappointing.
But when in the 60s in the UK any person who was brown would get attacked at random and their houses would be smashed up by bricks and called that slur so you can see why they are offended
Because they heard that word in a completely non-hateful context? Seems a bit silly to me. Like it's one thing to be kinda offended, it's another to make SUCH a big deal out of this. Especially since no-one alive from the 60s is watching KSI lol.
@@Moosterton "Especially since no one alive from the 60s would be watching KSI lol" a lot of the youngster kids watching him that are south Asian and living in the UK has experienced racism that involved that slur. Sure, it might not be on an equally great scale, but it's not like racism in the UK against south Asians or anyone else has completely disappeared, and a lot of south Asian kids has still experienced it. It's not like the drama is initiated because of south Asian kids being sensitive. Infact the bearded guy you criticized has stated in a longer video on his channel that he went through a lot of racism during his childhood thanks to that slur. I can agree what KSI did is forgivable and he means no harm. But it still doesn't remove the basis of the slur and it's historical background that can even be of contemporary harm. Slowly, it might lead to people being desensitized and forget what it really entails.
Can you explain to me what the actual harm is. The bearded guy in that video said it too. If it's so hurtful to even hear the sound - why did he say it? Like, if it's being used to perpetuate racism or empower racist thoughts, then I understand. But that's not what this is. I think it's about time we stop clutching our pearls and making stuff like this a bigger deal than it needs to be. KSI's comment was funny specifically because we know the history of the word - and while we should acknowledge history, we should not be shackled by it forever.
@@Moosterton I definitely agree with you that this situation is far-fetched. People need to forgive KSI and move on. But KSI should also know not to be blunt with that slur. I am personally in a middle ground. It's not completely wrong (and a terrible narrative if people trying to say KSI is racist because of it, cause he obviously isn't), but it's not right either. But I do at least partially agree with what you say.
While I don't think what he did was racism, I still think because of the backlash he got, there will be a bunch of "cancel cancel culture" nerds who will go up in arms and take it too far. Also as a person who watches ksi, in my head, i feel he's genuine about his apology, even though its mid, but again i barely know him, so i cant know. My opinions on this havent formed yet properly, because as an Indian myself i feel nothing, but i also live in the middle east, so im not the target here (and im starting to learn how to do exactly that bahah).
Yeah there's almost always a backlash to a backlash that goes too far. Loud voices online can also seem more prominent/popular than they actually are. All you can do is try to keep perspective, and have good reasons for your beliefs.
This video is ridiculous regardless of who the person is in the hot seat, but I have a little anecdote about the subject of the white knighting here: I have a small channel on here that I just use to publish little videos I completed, often times private jokes for an audience of like 1-5 friends. About ten years ago, I visited a KSI video that had gotten a little bit of attention for him behaving like a complete unfunny dickbag in it. Truly embarrassing stuff, him trying to riff and be funny but absent any senses of humor or artistry, so just being a dick to women at some event, with all the sophistication of a child who has seen people tell jokes but can't understand what makes them humorous. I told him I thought so, and I must have done so with some measure of efficacy because out of the hundreds of comments dumping on him, he decided to immediately get all bitchy and indignant with me, and start trying to dump on me in the comments. He was doing so absent any fodder or excuse other than his hurt feelings, so you can imagine it didn't go well for him. I kept rolling his fucking ass every single time he replied, and he kept getting angrier and angrier about it. Eventually some people entered the thread and started calling him a nigger. I immediately shifted my attention to those guys and started arguing with them, and after a few comments back and forth, KSI came into the thread, clearly not reading, and expressing that he wasn't surprised that I was a racist. I pointed out that he's worse at reading than he is at comedy, that I was actually defending him from flagrant racists, and that he's an even dumber fuck than I originally thought. It was the last straw for him, and he directed the "KSI army" to attack my channel (which was just a few AMVs at the time) with downvotes. He then immediately went to my latest upload and left some corny comment about me feeling the wrath of him and his army. Ultimately, it got me something like 5 downvotes across 3 videos and 5 new subscribers, so I guess it ended up being a W for my channel, even if I never had channel ambitions like that. Several weeks later, it appeared he had come back to my video and erased his comment - my reply to it was the only evidence of it after that. I suppose he felt a little silly after a little thought and time-distance. I didn't think about him after that for many years, until I heard his name mentioned because he was boxing some other diva RUclipsr or other, and I had to look to figure out why the name was familiar, at which point I became amazed that the guy was still relevant at all. Point being though, forget about any accusations of racism, or anything else substantive you can think of. This man was perfectly fine canceling me guerrilla style just because I hurt his fragile ego. As a large content creator, he wanted to use his influence to destroy what he imagined to be my budding livelihood (because it's his) because I thought he was unfunny and a dick, and because I said it. So it's funny when I see someone leaping to his defense, not even when he's being CaNCelLed, but just because there are a couple of people who weren't ok with his use of a slur on some show. A couple? You don't even really make that case in this video, you just show one, solitary, mild-mannered dude espousing some pretty basic and obvious truths about how slurs can and have been used to diminish people on the basis of immutable characteristics, and then rant on as if poor KSI is being crucified by society here. Nothing happened to him. He correctly issued an apology, and maybe even felt compelled to. That's the extent of it. I don't even know what the problem is here. But just know, that whether your drama-farming is on his behalf today or not (because it didn't matter that I was the guy defending him from racists in his comment section), this man won't hesitate to try (perhaps pathetically) to nuke your channel if you're not nice enough to him. But anyway, let's spend time composing a video essay in his defense because we found a guy who didn't think him conjuring a racial slur was the height of comedy, and because they had the temerity to take issue with it. Priorities.
Cool story bro. But if you're going to argue against the points I made, I'd like you to actually argue against the points I made. I'm not whiteknighting for anyone, I never said KSI was a good person at every point in his life, nor did I ever say he was being "cancelled" at this point. I simply stated my opinion that I think that kind of joke, done once in a while, is fine. I don't think it makes the world a worse place, people can lighten up a little. I don't care that ksi apologized, genuine or not, it's not about him. It wasn't just that one bearded guy who took issue with it, but he had a popular video that summarized a lot of people's general sentiments, which is why I used it. This was hardly a 'video essay' lol, it's not even 5 minutes. I recorded and edited it in a few hours.
@@Moosterton I don't know how cool it is but I think it's a perfectly relevant story given the individual and topic being discussed here. I also don't know why you're getting all tight about this video being referred to as an essay. That's exactly what it is, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's the format, and an essay is an essay even when it's one or two pages. Here - You crafted a piece of rhetorical media about and because you found someone who didn't think KSI conjuring a racial slur was the height of comedy, and because they had the temerity to take issue with it. I hope you find that less inaccurate/**offensive**/confrontational, whatever. More importantly though, and oddly, considering how you're accusing me of not addressing any of your arguments, I never accused you of calling KSI a good person or claiming he was being canceled. As a matter of fact, I specifically said he is NOT being canceled. I'm not sure why you're strawmanning in response to an anecdote I left, and more importantly, I'm not sure why you're replying to the anecdote and accusing me of not confronting your arguments, rather than replying to the even more detailed post I left elsewhere in here, replying directly to you and addressing some of your arguments (feel free to label it an essay in retaliation if it helps you work past that). I feel like I watched a video just yesterday where you were talking about some blue-haired dude who was being inexplicably evasive af with you...
I don't see any other comment from u here. It's possible youtube deleted it for being too racy, or it's bugged. When you write a comment where u clearly disagree with my points, say shit like I'm "rant[ing] on as if poor KSI is being crucified by society here", and I don't see any actual concrete points against what I said - I'm obviously going to respond negatively, and assume a lot of your tangents are somewhat a vague attempt to argue/discredit my points without having to actually do so. From my pov an essay implies greater strcuture, planning and effort than a video like this. Not to mention the tone is generally different. I wouldn't call any video with an opinion an "essay".
@@Moosterton There is a comment from someone names @baberalinoor that you replied to. The comment of mine that I'm referring to is a reply to you in that thread. It appears to be visible as far as I can tell.
I have friends and family from the UK, I've been there several times, and I've consumed tons of UK entertainment. I'm not detached or ignorant of UK culture. PLUS, It's not as tho slurs don't exist elsewhere lol. "You don't have a say" is so weak, if you disagree with me just explain why, instead of telling me I don't get to have an opinion.
My nigga, you have to upload more. Your the only youtuber I know who has a line of logic I can follow rn
His apology is like he's being held at gunpoint
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He probably was he needed to get that out fast for damage control and make sure none of his businesses crash
@@alexwhitelaw5469 so wtf is wrong with that? he wanted to protect his business, that is what a person in his or her right mindset would do.
My guy, Finally someone understands it’s just a joke man, this world is become something else, too soft man. Respect to u g
it wasnt even a joke, he just wanted points and already apologised before the slur lol, people just wanna hate on him for anythign xd
U got my sub u explained perfectly why it was not offensive
i dont know man, i get your point , and i can follow the logic, but as a black man, if lets say harry or ethan said the nword with the hard r because they saw the letters and couldnt think of anything else id still be pissed. so i dont want to be a hypocrite and say oh yeah this is fine because i dont feel offended by it. but aye man if you gave him the pass more power to him
I understand what you’re saying, but the n word is in a far different context in modern society then paki ever would be. Systemic racism towards black people is still an active problem today, due to many recent events, such as redlining in large cities, the war on drugs, segregation, and obviously slavery. We are still seeing issues from these events today and still live in a society where black people are systemically oppressed. The n word has a pretty direct link to those recent events which is what makes it such a bad word for other groups to use it. Paki on the other hand just doesn’t hold the same weight in todays world. Yes there’s still racist people obviously, but the systemic levels of racism just aren’t there, meaning the word just doesn’t carry much weight. Does this mean you can call everyone you know a paki? No, but in certain contexts it’s just not hate. You can say the word without it being so binary on if you’re racist or not.
Also this still doesn’t account for people made uncomfortable by the word which is fair. If someone just said “I didn’t really like that he said it because it makes me uncomfortable” then that’s also fine. Just don’t act like the person is automatically a racist for saying it.
Harry would get away with it.
One of the best takes. People are too soft man.
This guy is going places
W video, as an indian this was exactly what i felt during the video.Sidemen aren't racist feeling sad for them....
they’ve all admitted it was wrong, and tobi said to stop defending them on this, so i don’t get the insistence need to defend it.
i’m glad he apologized and it seemed genuine.
i’m not holding grudges or anything, but i feel like we’re at a point now where we can’t stop saying racial slurs for comedy points.
it’s just unnecessary.
I don't care about defending them. I'm defending the principle.
@@Moosterton either way it seems odd to me, man.
sometimes edgy humour can be funny. not much else to it than that tbh
@@Moosterton i’m not saying it can’t be, but i don’t know if just spouting slurs is funny enough to be warranted.
nah bro, by your logic one can go about throwing the N-word if its in fun? what even
I literally said you shouldn't go throwing slurs around with no discretion. But the occasional harmless joke is fine. And yes I'd apply that standard to every slur.
We need to stop treating this stuff like it's voldemort. We should be smart enough to understand context and subtext
@@Moosterton Who is "we?" People ranting on RUclips about how the other people ranting on RUclips are too sensitive (and not them)? I dig your videos and think your takes are earnest and thoughtful, but it's not productive to beat around the bush here, so I hope you're able to look past me being as blunt (but probably not as condescending) as you were in this video.
It's not uncommon to hear ranty people unironically using the word snowflake who, when you break down the commentary, are actually the most triggered people in the room, and this video is particularly loud in that respect. The difference between you and the bearded guy is that, arguments/contents aside (only for a moment), his far less ranty RUclips rant is in service of something pretty uncontroversial - racials slurs can upset people. Your rant is because not everybody is ok with KSI using a racial slur.
Maybe some people aren't being nuanced enough. I'll stipulate it for the sake of argument. Is that really the point worth making here, if there is one? Is that what the moral stance of the day is, to defend a millionaire RUclipsr from the hurtful bearded man speaking gently into a cell phone camera about how he found something they said to be offensive? I don't know, it's a weird look, especially as passionately as you do it. I get being annoyed by his characterization of people who defend it, but even when he's saying pretty reasonable stuff about how it's the people who have actually had that term used against them in an abusive manner who we should listen to to get a gauge for how appropriate the term is, your response is the facile "I asked my dad and he says it's ok, so what now?" This, right before demanding a logical argument from him - no sense of awareness whatsoever.
What do you need an argument for? It's a racial slur, some people don't think they should be used or seen as acceptable. It's pretty straightforward. I might be ok with any number of uses of any number of slurs in any number of contexts. That doesn't mean everyone else needs to be. I wasn't exactly offended by the clip, but the idea of sitting around and mocking someone who is wouldn't cross my mind. And what he was saying made sense. Who do you think has a more informed perspective about the history of a slur's usage, Jayden Smith or an old-timer who lived through the Civil Rights era?
Because look, I don't know what your personal relationship with racism is or what your dad's is, but that shit can get pretty ugly, and can harm people socially and psychologically. Emotionally, dare I say, at risk of being mocked for acknowledging that making people feel like shit isn't actually a value-neutral act. It dehumanizes the subjects, both in the eyes of the subject and of the person using the slur.
Me and my friends always had a good time joking about each others' races and ethnicities growing up - yes, not every time a slur or stereotype is mentioned = racism. That said, if someone heard it and was offended, we'd likely just apologize and move on our way - not sit there and mock them because they're not sufficiently appreciative of our edge. Which, is what KSI did. So I don't get why you're the one wearing the armor here.
And as far as any arguments about 'but the olds who had that word used as a slur against them don't watch KSI,' my response is twofold. First, that slur has not reached its shelf date yet, by any means. It makes the rounds fairly well. Second, even if there aren't many people who have been affected by the word firsthand that see it, it's completely reasonable to be concerned about the normalization of the term, especially because it's not as taboo as other slurs. Some people need to be told it's not ok.
I don't know, man, there is a lot of poor argumentation in here that I'm normally expect you to be dissecting rather than disseminating. Particularly the part where you're yelling about how if people experienced racism that's their "thing to deal with" (said Jayden to the Civil Rights activist?). Well they're dealing with it by sharing their experience, and your response is to give them a tongue lashing and complain that they're interfering with the "kids" (isn't he like 30?) having some fun. I'm not sure if it's more callous or obtuse.
This comes off like much of the whining I heard maybe a little over ten years ago, when there were discussions about "hey, the gaming community might have a problem with calling people faggots," and a lot of people wanted to make passionate arguments about their intent. I believed many of them. While I didn't throw it around the way others did online, it was in my vocabulary as well, and I never used it with any discriminatory intent. That said, it was unambiguously hurting peoples' feelings, regardless of intent, so I grew the fuck up and stopped using it.
It cost me nothing to do, and I didn't even need to sit around writing any video essays before undergoing the evolution that stopped me from potentially offending people who I wish no offense towards. The absence of the word in my vocabulary has not been any great strain on my life. I swear.
@@shokosugi2346 By "we" I mean broader society. It seems like the defacto position is for people to ignore context and call every usage of a slur 'bad' - it feels ridiculous to me. I don't mind if someone doesn't appreciate that kind of humour, or they don't particularly like hearing the word. That's fine. If you think it's a crappy joke, fine, criticize the joke. What I don't like is the huge moralizing around the topic, telling someone they SHOULD NOT be using that word under any circumstances, that it is "unacceptable" because their skin tone doesn't match the criteria to use this word.
Ofc I know racism can get ugly lol. But that's kinda part of my point: this wasn't racism. With your example of apologizing to someone who overhears an edgy joke - I might do the same in an IRL situation, in no small part because it's just easier, they likely misunderstood me, and I don't want any physical conflict. On the internet though? Where they are going out of their way to consume content, where they can easily find the full context, and can just click away if it's really that upsetting to them? Nah, I would never apologize for using a word. If hearing a certain word, regardless of context, immediately makes someone feel bad, that's their shit to deal with. Go to therapy. I don't think it's fair to try and impose your sensibilities upon every entertainer. If you were to expand this rule, we would be accomodating for everyone's feelings on everything. Some people get upset at hearing swear words, or hearing God's name used in vain. It makes them feel bad. That's fine, everyone's entitled to their personal views and feelings. However, I would have no issue mocking someone who tries moralizing the topic, ascribing "ignorance" and ill intentions on those who do swear or say 'blasphemous' things in their content. I'm not saying a person needs to enjoy my sense of humour, or enjoy edgy jokes. What I'm saying is, unless you can demonstrate the ACTUAL harm to society (beyond "my personal feelings about this are negative"), then don't moralize about jokes like this. If KSI's joke had a decent chance to make his audience racist - then fine. But if you can't make a decent argument showing the path to actual harm, you have no moral authority.
Is this the most important topic in the world? No. Do I need to spend time talking about this - probably not. Does this demonstrate a lack of nuance, and poor patterns of thinking which kinda annoys me, especially since I believe it is indicative of a flawed thought process which is likely to manifest in other harmful ways? Yes. That's why I talked about it. Plus I just find it interesting.
@@Moosterton That's not a de-facto position by any means. If it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all - not you and I, the guy with the beard, or whoever gave poor KSI a hard time on Twitter. It's 2023 and we're only finally addressing things like soccer players getting called monkeys (and maybe the occasional banana hurled at them on the pitch) fairly regularly. I'm sorry but (to run with the anecdote) when the sport's history looks back on that embarrassing phenomenon, videos like this might align you with the side that made passionate arguments about how people need to learn to take jokes. Not that there was even a joke involved in what KSI did - laughing while saying something does not a joke make.
That's not to say I think you come from a place of bad intent at all, but I think maybe you lack some perspective that some others, who are concerned about the normalization of racial slurs and/or the effects certain language has had on marginalized communities who have been otherized (in-part) by the use of bigoted terminology have. That's nothing to be ashamed of. The most thoughtful, well-meaning people can't always wrap their heads around a phenomenon, and need to experience it in some proximity to appreciate it.
Personally, I can remember times when brown taxi cab drivers, "meter maids" and bodega operators were called things like Pakis (or sand niggers or hajis or swamis or Ghandis) while being assaulted in a legal sense if not a colloquial one. Here, in NYC, most of the kids I grew up with in the various diverse neighborhoods where I went to school throughout my childhood weren't down with that when the rubber hit the road. Only most of them. Others inherited the casual condescension and stereotypes that was normalized among the adults in their lives, and kids who were from (in my specific neighborhoods) marginalized racial/ethnic backgrounds often internalized it their own way, and were very shy and reluctant to try to make friends or participate in things other students were doing. I saw it most keenly in the influx of Eastern European immigrants that arrived all at once in the year or two following the fall of the Berlin Wall.
It's not just sticks and stones, my dude, and even if you think someone is getting slightly more flack than they should for using a certain word or phrase, I think it's worth balancing the consequences of that vs what happens on the far more frequent occasions where the pendulum swings the other way, both currently and historically - the latter of whose lenses this video looks even more misguided through. It's a situation where the pendulum was hanging in one direction globally for much of recorded history, and now that we're in a place where it can sometimes, barely, ever-so-briefly move to the other side of the center, a bunch of people want to make a big deal out of THAT, and call for all sorts of nuance to make sure we're at the EXACT center.
As for your responses to my analogy of someone overhearing me being edgy with my friends, I think your response to it is completely backwards. If anything, my friends and I having a private conversation that someone overhears is where I might have a right to be indignant about strangers commenting on my words. When you (not you personally) put something out on the internet (or in print or visual media), particularly when you do it to attract eyeballs so that you can make $$$ off of what you're saying, THAT is when you should expect that people will respond to you. And if you enjoy it when times are good, and when your edginess gets you paid, I'm not interested in any fucking whining when you fuck up and piss someone off, or even when you don't fuck up and some people have criticism of what they perceive as your insensitivity to their race, culture or lifestyle. And if you (personally) have a problem with people like the bearded guy that you cited offering a criticism while recording his face, then I struggle to understand where you get off recording a video of your face criticizing him without a whiff of irony.
To get back to the "not you personally" (the people being edgy for clicks), I'm reminded of these comedians who want to pose as mavericks, and who hold out comedy as this institution of uncomfortable truth told through art, and who claim to idolize controversial comedians who came before them - and then bitch and moan when things they say are controversial. Be the maverick if you're going to be the maverick, or at very least, don't turn into the same whiny, sensitive twats that you claim can't understand your craft and need to leave you alone. Critiques are valid and welcome even when they don't come in the form of a punchline. I feel like you understood this in a video about comedy you did in the past.
Only we both agree that nobody is being canceled here, so I really don't get the problem.
Anyway, to clarify in case you misunderstood one of my criticisms and weren't just misplacing it when you responded to it: it's not that this video isn't about a topic that's that important. It's that *within the topic covered*, in response to KSI using a slur and less-than 100% of people not having a problem with it, you chose to defend the point of view of least consequence, regardless of what you think of the guy whose specific arguments you highlighted for the purpose of disputing. The problem of racism is worse than the problem of RUclipsrs getting a few critical comments on Twitter - I don't think that's controversial to say. That the defense is mounted on a bunch of facile arguments and needlessly callous tone makes it that much more disappointing.
But when in the 60s in the UK any person who was brown would get attacked at random and their houses would be smashed up by bricks and called that slur so you can see why they are offended
Because they heard that word in a completely non-hateful context? Seems a bit silly to me. Like it's one thing to be kinda offended, it's another to make SUCH a big deal out of this. Especially since no-one alive from the 60s is watching KSI lol.
@@Moosterton "Especially since no one alive from the 60s would be watching KSI lol" a lot of the youngster kids watching him that are south Asian and living in the UK has experienced racism that involved that slur. Sure, it might not be on an equally great scale, but it's not like racism in the UK against south Asians or anyone else has completely disappeared, and a lot of south Asian kids has still experienced it. It's not like the drama is initiated because of south Asian kids being sensitive. Infact the bearded guy you criticized has stated in a longer video on his channel that he went through a lot of racism during his childhood thanks to that slur.
I can agree what KSI did is forgivable and he means no harm. But it still doesn't remove the basis of the slur and it's historical background that can even be of contemporary harm. Slowly, it might lead to people being desensitized and forget what it really entails.
Can you explain to me what the actual harm is. The bearded guy in that video said it too. If it's so hurtful to even hear the sound - why did he say it?
Like, if it's being used to perpetuate racism or empower racist thoughts, then I understand. But that's not what this is. I think it's about time we stop clutching our pearls and making stuff like this a bigger deal than it needs to be. KSI's comment was funny specifically because we know the history of the word - and while we should acknowledge history, we should not be shackled by it forever.
@@unown-alt if that's the case all slurs should now be said in a non derogatory term plus he has apologised now that's enough for me
@@Moosterton I definitely agree with you that this situation is far-fetched. People need to forgive KSI and move on. But KSI should also know not to be blunt with that slur.
I am personally in a middle ground. It's not completely wrong (and a terrible narrative if people trying to say KSI is racist because of it, cause he obviously isn't), but it's not right either. But I do at least partially agree with what you say.
Nailed it, I think ppl are overreacting just to get Ksi and the sidemen cancelled. I mean yeah it’s quite bad but ppl are taking it further too.
I got called a hobbit when I was younger, I guess nobody can say that word anymore because it offended me
Facts brudda
While I don't think what he did was racism, I still think because of the backlash he got, there will be a bunch of "cancel cancel culture" nerds who will go up in arms and take it too far.
Also as a person who watches ksi, in my head, i feel he's genuine about his apology, even though its mid, but again i barely know him, so i cant know.
My opinions on this havent formed yet properly, because as an Indian myself i feel nothing, but i also live in the middle east, so im not the target here (and im starting to learn how to do exactly that bahah).
Yeah there's almost always a backlash to a backlash that goes too far. Loud voices online can also seem more prominent/popular than they actually are. All you can do is try to keep perspective, and have good reasons for your beliefs.
@@Moosterton That's fair.
just subbed yo this shit good
Bro you are actually so underrated smart and funny. Hopefully your channel blows up like crazy u deserve it
This is a good take , I agree.
i ent got no right to say if it’s wrong or not cuh im white but ppl sayin jjs racist are buggin man
W take about the situation, people nowadays are just snow flakes softies who would be offended by anything
Society needs to stop being so soft this guys made light of a a word people taking it so personal absolute joke,
This video is ridiculous regardless of who the person is in the hot seat, but I have a little anecdote about the subject of the white knighting here:
I have a small channel on here that I just use to publish little videos I completed, often times private jokes for an audience of like 1-5 friends. About ten years ago, I visited a KSI video that had gotten a little bit of attention for him behaving like a complete unfunny dickbag in it. Truly embarrassing stuff, him trying to riff and be funny but absent any senses of humor or artistry, so just being a dick to women at some event, with all the sophistication of a child who has seen people tell jokes but can't understand what makes them humorous.
I told him I thought so, and I must have done so with some measure of efficacy because out of the hundreds of comments dumping on him, he decided to immediately get all bitchy and indignant with me, and start trying to dump on me in the comments. He was doing so absent any fodder or excuse other than his hurt feelings, so you can imagine it didn't go well for him. I kept rolling his fucking ass every single time he replied, and he kept getting angrier and angrier about it.
Eventually some people entered the thread and started calling him a nigger. I immediately shifted my attention to those guys and started arguing with them, and after a few comments back and forth, KSI came into the thread, clearly not reading, and expressing that he wasn't surprised that I was a racist. I pointed out that he's worse at reading than he is at comedy, that I was actually defending him from flagrant racists, and that he's an even dumber fuck than I originally thought.
It was the last straw for him, and he directed the "KSI army" to attack my channel (which was just a few AMVs at the time) with downvotes. He then immediately went to my latest upload and left some corny comment about me feeling the wrath of him and his army. Ultimately, it got me something like 5 downvotes across 3 videos and 5 new subscribers, so I guess it ended up being a W for my channel, even if I never had channel ambitions like that. Several weeks later, it appeared he had come back to my video and erased his comment - my reply to it was the only evidence of it after that. I suppose he felt a little silly after a little thought and time-distance. I didn't think about him after that for many years, until I heard his name mentioned because he was boxing some other diva RUclipsr or other, and I had to look to figure out why the name was familiar, at which point I became amazed that the guy was still relevant at all.
Point being though, forget about any accusations of racism, or anything else substantive you can think of. This man was perfectly fine canceling me guerrilla style just because I hurt his fragile ego. As a large content creator, he wanted to use his influence to destroy what he imagined to be my budding livelihood (because it's his) because I thought he was unfunny and a dick, and because I said it.
So it's funny when I see someone leaping to his defense, not even when he's being CaNCelLed, but just because there are a couple of people who weren't ok with his use of a slur on some show. A couple? You don't even really make that case in this video, you just show one, solitary, mild-mannered dude espousing some pretty basic and obvious truths about how slurs can and have been used to diminish people on the basis of immutable characteristics, and then rant on as if poor KSI is being crucified by society here. Nothing happened to him. He correctly issued an apology, and maybe even felt compelled to. That's the extent of it. I don't even know what the problem is here.
But just know, that whether your drama-farming is on his behalf today or not (because it didn't matter that I was the guy defending him from racists in his comment section), this man won't hesitate to try (perhaps pathetically) to nuke your channel if you're not nice enough to him. But anyway, let's spend time composing a video essay in his defense because we found a guy who didn't think him conjuring a racial slur was the height of comedy, and because they had the temerity to take issue with it. Priorities.
Cool story bro. But if you're going to argue against the points I made, I'd like you to actually argue against the points I made. I'm not whiteknighting for anyone, I never said KSI was a good person at every point in his life, nor did I ever say he was being "cancelled" at this point. I simply stated my opinion that I think that kind of joke, done once in a while, is fine. I don't think it makes the world a worse place, people can lighten up a little. I don't care that ksi apologized, genuine or not, it's not about him. It wasn't just that one bearded guy who took issue with it, but he had a popular video that summarized a lot of people's general sentiments, which is why I used it. This was hardly a 'video essay' lol, it's not even 5 minutes. I recorded and edited it in a few hours.
@@Moosterton I don't know how cool it is but I think it's a perfectly relevant story given the individual and topic being discussed here. I also don't know why you're getting all tight about this video being referred to as an essay. That's exactly what it is, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's the format, and an essay is an essay even when it's one or two pages. Here - You crafted a piece of rhetorical media about and because you found someone who didn't think KSI conjuring a racial slur was the height of comedy, and because they had the temerity to take issue with it. I hope you find that less inaccurate/**offensive**/confrontational, whatever.
More importantly though, and oddly, considering how you're accusing me of not addressing any of your arguments, I never accused you of calling KSI a good person or claiming he was being canceled. As a matter of fact, I specifically said he is NOT being canceled. I'm not sure why you're strawmanning in response to an anecdote I left, and more importantly, I'm not sure why you're replying to the anecdote and accusing me of not confronting your arguments, rather than replying to the even more detailed post I left elsewhere in here, replying directly to you and addressing some of your arguments (feel free to label it an essay in retaliation if it helps you work past that).
I feel like I watched a video just yesterday where you were talking about some blue-haired dude who was being inexplicably evasive af with you...
I don't see any other comment from u here. It's possible youtube deleted it for being too racy, or it's bugged. When you write a comment where u clearly disagree with my points, say shit like I'm "rant[ing] on as if poor KSI is being crucified by society here", and I don't see any actual concrete points against what I said - I'm obviously going to respond negatively, and assume a lot of your tangents are somewhat a vague attempt to argue/discredit my points without having to actually do so.
From my pov an essay implies greater strcuture, planning and effort than a video like this. Not to mention the tone is generally different. I wouldn't call any video with an opinion an "essay".
@@Moosterton There is a comment from someone names @baberalinoor that you replied to. The comment of mine that I'm referring to is a reply to you in that thread. It appears to be visible as far as I can tell.
W+
If youre not a south asian from uk you dont have a say lol this only effect asians in the uk not usa
I have friends and family from the UK, I've been there several times, and I've consumed tons of UK entertainment. I'm not detached or ignorant of UK culture. PLUS, It's not as tho slurs don't exist elsewhere lol.
"You don't have a say" is so weak, if you disagree with me just explain why, instead of telling me I don't get to have an opinion.
W
😬😬
My man you look like gradaeundera kinda
we're both brown and that's about it lol. completely different face
What do you think about aba and preach?
they seem ok
Do a video on the critical drinker he's a conservative grifter like quatering but for movies