Inside 650HP 12v Cummins After 350k Miles
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Can a stock 12V Cummins reliably hold 650 Horsepower? In this episode, we take a close look at the internal components of the 12V Cummins after beating on it at 650 Horsepower for over 100,000 miles.
Get the best parts for your 12v Cummins at the lowest prices here: powerdrivendie...
Power Driven Diesel is a specialty performance shop engaged in the engineering and development of high performance turbo diesel technologies.
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I have always wondered how much wear engine has when modified. Now I know. Thank you for sharing this and being honest without hiding or exaggerating details.
Glad to help
@Power Driven Diesel , forgot ask you. How did your transmission hold up? Any repairs and what mileage? Good topic for a video
Rod bearings usually always the first to go. I am actually surprised at that much cam wear, but that is a lot of miles. I think 400rwhp single and 600rwhp twin is a good reliable nice driving power level for 12valves.
(Machine shop guy here) something to keep in mind, all of those welds can & will cause weak points in your parts, the factory Crankshaft is heat treated & hardened. It is already very brittle, I have had it in other engines where the crank will actually split (yes like a log) after being welded, or heated in an extreme manner.
Not bashing you, if it works it works, just something to keep in mind!
Great to see and hear the engine performed great for that mileage at that power level. I have a '98 12v with Industrial Injection towing compounds that have been on there with supporting mods for around 100k as well. I do everything with it from daily driving it to work everyday to hauling a horse trailer. It really is a proven and reliable setup that works flawlessly. You couldn't ask for better driveability and spool up and G56 I have in it also works great with the 12v. A lot of what it takes to "get things to last" is all in how you drive it. If you drive it like a hot rod every single day, then don't expect super longevity if that's what you're after. There is definitely a time and place for it but I don't beat on it every single day when I'm driving it to and from work. Using quality oil and keeping up with oil changes is another high factor of course.
What oil are you using the one they advertise?
Very cool to know that I could go higher in performance (frankly, 99% of the time I'd still run it as conservatively as I would with a bone stock 12V) with no real component degradation. This is a prime example of good old American hot rodding - squeezing the most hp out of an engine without breaking the bank. Subscribed, looking forward to seeing more.
Them bearings looked nicer than when i rebuilt my 01 5.9 with 355,000 miles.
I've been wanting to get into a diesel truck/cummins as my 2nd vehicle just to dick around with and have fun.
I'm a gas engine tech for 5 years and it's kinda spooked me the difference from a gas engine to an older style 12v cummins.
However, I've been learning a lot from your channel and it's been awesome, and I'm feeling a lot more comfortable. I'm hoping to take the leap come spring time and pickup a "beatup" ram for sub $6k.
Love the content and I look forward to watching more of it!
We tore down the engine from my old truck, 1996 Cummins at 494,000 miles. It was only about 150 hp overstock for the last 150K. A lot of those smiles were short trip city and local. Hone marks were gone in cylinders 5 & 6. Most bearings looked really good except #5 rod was in bad shape and one main was a bit rough, No idea why. But the crank polished out. I noticed they low the thumping sound for the last 75,000 miles, because of the rod bearing.
Occasionally we've come across random rod bearing failures but not a common issue for sure.
What mods did you do to get the extra 150hp? I'm looking for a little extra hp on my stock 97 with 237k miles. I tow a toy hauler to the desert.
Love the mechanical content!! My 96 5 speed truck has 325.000 miles with head studs slipped in one at a time, 60# valve springs, PDD push rods, 6x11 VCOs, 21 degrees timing, and HE351/S369sxe compounds. It has been an amazingly reliable setup and now I know the motor most likely has alot of life left in it. KEEP IT UP!!!
Sounds like a great combination!
Ever had it dyno’d and any idea on the power or MPG if you even keep track of it.
@@kalebstout7673 Never had on a dyno, would love too one day. Power is probably north of 400hp off the butt dyno and from driving other trucks. MPGs aren't bad, average about 15, hot rodding around and towing.
I’m planning on going with the ultimate towing compounds on my truck. Thanks for showing this. It just confirms that this is the route I want to go! Now do you think a ZF6 will hold up behind it? (Fummins)
Send it to superstick in Texas
Thank you for showing us your combo. This is exactly what I was looking for. I'll be in touch this spring for sure
Glad you made this video, I was already planning on building a project vehicle with a 12 valve Cummins, and this confirms the strength and durability of this engine 😁👍🏻
They are really well-built from the factory!
I’m still in the preliminary stage of the build, but I’m sure you’ll be impressed with the power potential of this type of set up
I just put compounds 361 over 476 on my 3rd gen along with studs, springs, lift pump and coolant bypass. The truck was completely stock with 150k on the motor but is now tuned to 650 hp. I built it for towing and daily driving. I was told to expect it to go 400k the way it sits and this just supports that. Thanks for the info.
can’t wait to see where this engine build ends up power wise. 👍
Shoot for the stars.... or limit of the block? LOL
Just got my 98 12 valve back from Superstick Transmissions, they did a G56 swap for me. Now I want a little more power, 450whp would be plenty.
Great give a call any time 435-962-9555 or email to Info@powerdrivendiesel.com
Man I would absolutely kill to know everything you guys know
Great to see you back doing videos Will.
I just rebuilt my 12v after dropping an exhaust valve. It was around 600hp for about 50k miles and my rod bearings looked the same.
do you run compound turbos? just bought a 97 dually to tow my trailer to the desert. i wouldnt mind another 100 hp.
@@MarcoRodriguez-lr2xt i just went from a single silverbullet 64 to a s362/s475 compound setup. Unreal the difference.
Makes me feel good about my stock Cummins with almost 400k.
If the oil is changed regularly, 400k mile engines still look great inside!
Truly tough engines! Good and interesting video.
Yes they are!
@@pddofficial about the s472 turbo... were EGTs different?
That wasn’t a camshaft that was a fricken flagpole!!!!!
✌🏽🇺🇸
Wow awesome break down of the internals. Thanks for posting!
What kind of mpgs would a truck like this get cruising the highway? This is cool! Makes me want a diesel truck
typically 15-18mpg
Well this is an amazing video! I have over 300,000 on my 24v not as much power as your 12v but aftermarket everything and I wonder how my block is doing??
I think this says more to the fact that you guys know how to tune the truck to safely make that much horsepower, than anything. Granted the cummins is solid, but if I tweaked my engine that far, something would probably give.
Says volumes about your knowledge base.
Some would argue it's really easy to tune a 12v Cummins.... screwdriver and small hand tools.... Honestly with fast spooling compound turbos, it's hard to really overdue-it on the fueling side because the excess airflow produces the power so easily.
@@pddofficial I didn't know about you guys and your compounds before buying a Ind. Inj. Boxer turbo. If I would have I would have definitely gone with your setup. I'm in love! I don't really like the boxer anyway. It takes alot to light up. They said it would work great though. Who knew...
Well spoken in front of the camera sir.
I’m planning on manual swapping my 12 valve because I went through 2 transmissions.
But none of those transmission were from PDD. Idk if I have the skill to build one on my own with one of your kits.
Allison swap it i have a 5 speed 12v and it gets old after a while on the bright side 330,000 miles and it still shifts smooth :)
Manuals are great for guys that like rowing gears... full manual VB built autos are better, at least more fun for sure! We've had lots of customers successfully build their own transmission with one of our kits, so if you're up for it, give it a shot!
Great video! Keep them coming!
Excellent video man. Much love from Alberta! 🤠
I need learn more about these. I have had a 94 5.9 just sitting around that I need to start building
When you weld the cam gear to the camshaft, are there any balance issues to be concerned about?
We weld the crank gear to the crank and have had no negative results
Great video guys!
Stock engine might handle 700hp …but my 47re would be shaking in it’s boots when it sees those ponies coming 🤣
You talked about the abuse but how was the exhaust temps, was it pretty moderate or did it see 2k EGT weekly
It probably saw 1800 weekly, it probably couldn't get to 2k without a trailer load on a steep hill or at the drag strip at 100 MPH.
I looking to get a full rebuild on my 98 12v to bad you guys are so far away from Long Island NY! Anyone on here no of someone local to LI to help me out? Thanks for the awesome content fellers keep it up!!!
Thank you Ryan
I'm saving up to Cummins swap my 6.0 250. I wonder what the cost for a build like this is. Maybe a parts list?
Truck runs great currently. 267k now.
Figured I should save for the big day though.
It's a stock engine with headstuds, pushrods, valve springs, injectors, and towing compound turbo kit. The pump's fuel/power output could be replicated with a stock pump with delivery valves and governor spring upgrade. No need for a $2,000+ pump build for this power level. Wait for the final product, we'll see just how far this 12mm p-pump will take us!
Hey! I love your content and I'm partnered with TheAdrenalineDealer and 8LugsNoPlugs and we'd love to share your content across our platforms with full credit to you!
Great explanation! Thank you
Glad it was helpful!
i currently own a boat with twin 12valve 370s"technically they are 355s" was always wondering if i can build a set of 12 valves to safely support 500-550hp constant load and still be as close as reliable as stock. What are your thoughts ? I know that qsb did come with a 480hp version of the 24 valve before they switched to a 6.7s .
With the infinite cooling of a boat I would think you could hit those power goals. Would need some good airflow though.
If someone drops off a w250 and wants this kind of hp, how much is he roughly looking at?
If we were doing it around 60k
Sweet I have the same 98 12valve 215 pump
My dream is your compounds.
I have a motor built waiting to be put in, I have a stage 4 colt cam it and would love to see what your compounds would do with that cam.
Please and thank you Will
Sounds like a great build plan/setup. We've tested larger cams in the past on a 500ish HP 12v with a medium sized single turbo and it didn't really pick up a measurable horsepower gain on the dyno. We suspect the stock head was holding back dyno gains from the mild cam. The stage 4 colt is bigger than what we tested and the towing compounds flow more air, so it should be a great combination. Now if you topped if off with a ported head..... it might be incredible.
I never repond here.
But you guys are great.
I like smaller Diesel tuning and i know a lot about the subject.
Still its great entertainment.
Keep it up
Thanks for watching!
So why did it have so much blow by? Those rings don’t look that bad
Loose ring tension, vertical scuffing in the bores of the block, and 60psi boost is going to generate blowby, even on a new engine.
Funny how the first oil comes to mind that’s junk lol ROTELA!
How is this junk oil?
When yall doing a double the horsepower truck sponsorship ill drive from California for that to happen!
We already did double, it's probably time to do triple or quadruple?
@Power Driven Diesel Would be awesome to see both tripe and quadruple as part of a series on the channel. If you need a lightly modified 2nd gen to use I'm that guy pal 👍
Thanks for this info
Any time
Sweet video as always
I would love to see this for the vp44
Aside from the bowl location, what difference would you expect?
@@preachers4135 to see what parts wear differently. What lasts with the 24v and what doesn't last.
@@Doug6251 5.9 12V and 24V engines are virtually the same besides the head and fuel system.
There’s a few oddities in crank / cam sensor locations but they don’t effect wear.
2003 introduced common rail fuel system and changes in the block.
@@preachers4135 so there would be no difference in wear? Good to know thanks man
Did it have a problem ? Wondering why you took it apart if there wasn't anything wrong with it. Just found your channel liking the content. Amazing video was it drove hard what was the normal egt temp? Did u pull a trailer full time with it ? Or just a daily driver beat on type build ? Mine has 600 hp in my 3500 dually 6 speed. An on summer days it's usually 2k temp 4 inch straight pipe exhuast compound turbo set up.
The truck had no issues other than Will was bored with 664 HP. Check out the earlier episode for the details on this 98' 12 valve: ruclips.net/video/uKAPhZZEQ8A/видео.html
You mentioned that this truck started well in the winter and I. The summer but the new engine build will have a hard time starting. I always wondered why these heavily modified diesel engines have a hard time starting. Is it the quantity of fuel injected, the injection timing, or the valve timing? Would be nice if you guys could explain.
Great video 👍
Low compression and high timing make them hard to start.
@@bcbloc02
By "High timing" you mean advanced fuel injection timing?
@@augustinglenn Yes 30+deg BTDC Start of injection is high timing. Some pullers can be 50+deg advanced
@@bcbloc02
Oh ok. Thanks so much for the clarification
@@bcbloc02
It's amazing that the engine can even run with fuel being injected so early on the compression stroke
around 1300tq?
Curious did you have an external gate to route exhaust around the k27 into the 472? I suspect if you didn't pick up power with the sxe472 it is because it was choked in front of it. Also what turbine and exhaust housing size 472 is it?
Internal gate only. We tried both a 1.0 housing and 1.25AR. The 472 is also tight fit with the factory shock shock tower so it didn't make sense to add a hard to fit, more expensive turbo where the 369sxe worked better for the intended towing application. On the flipside, with the PDD 24V Cummins Common Rail Towing Turbo Kit, the factory He351cw worked extremely well with the 472sxe. The 472 fit well, and when combined with a custom larger turbine wheeled HE351, it was good for over 900 rwhp, yet still capable of excellent towing manners on a stock 300 ish HP truck.
Rotella oil is junk?
Great show guys 👌
This was all good information but I keep reading where people are talking about the high mileage I don't know why they're saying high mileage one of those engines driven properly maintenance property should go push a million miles before they need torn into 7500000 at least
in stock form that is absolutely true but when you almost quadruple the horsepower of the factory engine the life span drops to about a forth of it's life.
Baron
Hey now Rotella diesel oil is not junk lol esp is lucas additive is added along with it
welding the cam gear on ? you could do the same thing with a couple of bolts and safety wire and is not as permanent, just a suggestion.
How would that work when it rotates?
What generation is this 12 valve he referring to? First or second generation? What one is better? I’m new to this. Trying to learn and research. Thanks in advance.
he is referring to the 2nd generation as for what is better all depends on what you are after.
@@pddofficialI got a 92 wanna beef it up a bit something similar to this power range. Something reliable but more power. Not looking to break the truck. Just want a daily that I can haul with from time to time.
6bt are really overbuilt.
Also what torque did you have for this?
can you ballpark how much i would spend to setup my stock 96 ram for compound ~600hp? just round to the nearest $500 or so?
8-10k
Wowowo, throwing stones at Rotella...
This truck has used/ran some Rotella in its lifetime, but ever since they went to the new CJ oil spec, the wear metals increased dramatically. The current CK oil spec is even worse for the pre 2002 engines that were never designed to run with so little zinc. Have you ever wondered why the new 6.7L Cummins engines abandoned the proven flat tappet camshaft setup and are using roller tappet?
Cost wise to make something like this reliable? 5k 10k?
10k-20k depending on trans mission.
Another great video
What were the torque numbers on that build?
Around 1400
@@pddofficial Sweet!
RWHP: Real-world horsepower.
BHP: Banks horsepower.
Nope, sorry. It amazing that with the internet, people still get basic whit wrong like that
I want to take my 96 apart look it over. But I want to waite till I hit 500000miles I got less than 20000 miles to go. I have compound turbos my truck probably sits around 500 to 550hp. It's never had the head off of it. I still have stock valve springs and all.
500k miles is awesome!
Do you guys ever balance the rotating assembly?
Yes at 1000hp build we will.
Where is the build list of parts you added to your 12V Cummins to get 650hp?
Seems like a lot of wear and possible issues for it to be reliable imo
Do you have a 400-500hp 4bt package?
No sorry 4bts are not a huge market but if you call our sales team they will be able to get you a recipe made up!
what kind of mileage did you get with that rig? I'm a 1st gen guy, but have a 4x4 I'm wanting to build. buddy has a 500 hp truck 98 model. gets 17mpg
Averaged 18mpg
What oil are you using? Tried finding it in comments. Good video I’m upgrading my 18 with banks parts.
For oil, this truck usually was filled up with powerdrivendiesel.com/product/conventional-15w-40-boosted-with-zddp/
Occasionally during wintertime it would get the full synthetic: powerdrivendiesel.com/product/synthetic-15w-40-boosted-with-zddp/
Or for the really cold weather, the newly released 5w-40 helps with cold starts: powerdrivendiesel.com/product/power-driven-diesel-synthetic-diesel-oil-5w-40-gal/
You guys have an awesome job. I'm jealous.
how much for 6-700 hp engine ??
Give our sales team a call 435-962-9555
So with that setup could you run waste oil in it?
Yes just need to watch the EGT oil runs hotter
Curious to know if this was running a Fluidampr or not??
Great info.
Glad it was helpful!
2:09 "junk Rotella" /// Yeah, OK. Whatever you say.....
Any CK spec oil is going to have similar detrimental effects on wear items in an older diesel engine that was designed to run with CI spec oil with much higher ZDDP anti-wear.
@@pddofficial Did you run conventional or synthetic in yours?
Could the same reliable, 100k mile, 650-hp be had with a 24 valve?
Yes. This was a ‘98 storm block, same as a 24V. Heads and fuel system are main differences but yes a 24V can make this power reliably. Life expectancy depends more on the operator.
Yes, the engine will handle 650 HP, but with the factory VP44 injection pump, it's difficult to get 650 rear wheel HP fuel-only. You'll definitely need a healthy sized injector and a potentially a hotrod VP44 pump if you have a factory 6 speed HO truck. If you have a standard output 5 speed or 4 speed auto, then there's a good chance your factory VP44 injection pump will get to the 600+ HP range fuel-only.
This is roughly my goal with my 96 Dually
So what what was caseing all the crank case pressure? How was the bore on the block?
Bore had vertical scuffing, most likely from butting rings a time or two at the drag strip on a low 12 second 1/4 mile pass. Bores will clean up with about 009" piston to wall hone job, so for a milder power level rebuild it will probably end up 020" oversized.
Did you have your head oringed man I know that’s a rhetorical question. Love you guys spend more money there than anywhere.
The block was o-ringed in-frame with an Isky Groov o Matic. The proper way to do it now is to o-ring the head since it's easy to remove compared to in-frame grooving the block.
any news on when the batwing rockers will be back in?
They should be back in stock by the end of next week.
I inquired about having you guys build me an engine last week I told the guy I was thinking about power range from 650 800 hp he quoted me on that but I’m wonder if I needed the engine to be that built I will be towing a trailer with Jeep on it about once a month and driven daily back and forth to work I planned on compounding it but got me thinking was I planning to over build it I know it’s better to but after seeing this video it got me thinking and also with that power range I was quoted am I able to lower the power range dramatically with the afc I just have questions and serious about buying engine from pdd. as my machine shop local guy just retired so I don’t trust any shops with this type of build
It's tough to know where you'll end up power-wise in the future. The main differences between a 500 HP engine build and an 850 HP engine build would be the head studs, o-ringing or fire ringing, piston to wall clearance, ring gap, and coated piston skirts vs stock. More power means more heat so clearances get opened up for the higher power levels. When you start looking for 1000+ HP is when the build drastically changes because rod failure comes into play, camshaft size, etc.
What are you think if i take a 6bt and i tuning to 500 hp with + 13sp transmition and i instal on a semi single axle ? For pull 48k lb trailer. Is crazy?
I want to put a 12 valve in my 1990 f700 hotshot truck what are y’all’s build prices
we are not currently building engines, but if you want to build it yourself we are more than happy to work with you on what products you will need.
Baron
I plan on building a nice tow rig using a either a 90's Chevy C30HD frame or a Ford F550, What would be the best transmission to use behind a 400-500hp Cummins? I would like to have a manual like a 5sp Eaton or a newer 6sp dodge manual. Don't feel like investing in $10K Built automatics, Not drag racing just wanna tow comfortable any mountain that comes my way.
If you have the space under the floor I would use a FSO-6406a Eaton Fuller. Its twice the trans of of any Getrag or New Venture.
The G56 6 speeds have larger bearings than the NV5600 and they are usually more affordable. The ZF 6 speeds have a good reputation as well. Outside of those three light duty factory options, I don't have enough first hand experience to share an opinion.
What oil are you running?
Our Power driven oil.powerdrivendiesel.com/product-category/power-driven-fluids/
Good information video
Hell Yeah Brother
I'm gonna go out on a limb based on your comment that you're a Cleetus McFarland fan.... correct?
I love when you guys post videos! You guys coming to UCC again?
We are not attending UCC this year as a competitor. That doesn't mean a few of us won't be there to spectate and/or help should the need arise.
@@pddofficial bummer to hear you won't be competing but I will definitely say hi to any of you I see!
Would 25 degrees of timing be the max for something you daily drive in the winter?
With working grid heaters, you can go as high as 30*, but it's starts hard and is annoying for most. Keep in mind -20F starts in Montana or Minnesota are not going to happen at 30* timing but 10F will be rough, but it'll start. Sometimes if you cycle the grid heaters twice before trying to start with good batteries and 5w-40 synthetic oil so the motor turns over faster will really help and then you could possible run 30+ timing. If you have a working block heater and plug it in, then 30* timing is never a problem.
Can we talk trans to hold that power?
Love how you guys care for skin with same passion as your engines lol, as a 45 year career diesel fitter you can believe you will pay the price for the tough guy persona of not wearing gloves and using barrier cream regularly, as you well know diesel oil is black for a reason and if you think your epidermis layer is as hooked on diesel engines as you lol 😆 love your content though, still amazed how far the US diesel scene has progressed in such a short time to such a high degree
Thank you
How can i get you guys to fix my 99 dodge ram 2500 2wd?
Rotella junk? What oil do you guys run? Addatives?
We run the PDD brand oil, which includes all the ZDDP additive goodness 👍
So all that blow by was from the head?....wow. Show us what that looks like when/as it is torn down
There were some vertical scuffs and small score lines in conjunction with the tired rings that were contributing to the blowby. It looked bad in the video but we've seen much worse for sure!
@@pddofficial So the head was in good shape? I have seen pistons and rings from bigger engines w 14,000 hrs that had much more scuffing on them ,collapsed worn right out rings that had blow by like that. I would have bet the deed to the ranch the head was pooched after this vid
What are the sought after cummins blocks/engines I can look for if I wanted to buy a used engine to heavily modify for a project vehicle?
The international blocks and the 215 p pump is what you would be after but at 1500+hp unless you are planing on filling it they all tend to break.
@@pddofficial nice..I was thinking around half of that kind of power....is there any way to destiguish them or pick them out if I were to go out to a junk yard...
How often should a person change oil on a setup like this when using a quality oil like pdd synthetic?
At this power level, regular oil changes at 5k miles is pretty standard. When you get up into the 900+ HP range, fuel dilution can become an issue and the limiting factor requiring more frequent oil changes. If you sample and test your oil, you can definitely go to longer intervals 5k+ as long as your air filtration is good to keep the silica down and you keep an eye on the wear metals in the lab reports. This exact truck had quite a bit of oil sampling done over the past 100k miles and Will pushed the oil change interval to just over 10k miles a few times and it had 13k miles on the last oil change right as the engine was removed. On the flip side, some of our BIG power race engines get fresh oil every 20 to 25 dyno pulls and after every 5 quarter mile passes. On these big power setups, the oil starts to smell like fuel and combustion gasses because of dilution and the extreme blowby that occurs with 1800+ HP.
As a first time inquirer to having a hi-po trans built, I just got off the phone with one of your staff- must be nice not needing another customer. Treated like he just didn’t give a shit. I’ll take my 8g’s to another place.
Customer service/dis-service… your reputation is yours to earn or burn. Thought I’d let you know.
Sorry to hear that, who did you speak with?
@@pddofficial
I would’ve written a name if was being helped but I wasn’t.
I’ll paraphrase and maybe you can help. I realize you don’t do remove and replace, I don’t have a garage large enough to store my truck to do it myself (or likely the skills, tools, and ability), and are reticent to handing over an eight thousand dollar transmission to any knucklehead to install. My days of garage mechanic-ing at this level are long since gone and would like an R & R guy I can rely on to put a transmission like that in my vehicle.
I am an original owner of a bone stock 2000 Dodge Cummins 5.9 with 240,000 miles and want a transmission befitting the engine in front of it so I can hand it down to my daughter in my will and I am finding no solutions here in Southern California for a high potency builder/installer with my original transmission-I don’t want to core exchange. ATS will do this job but after seeing a tear down of one of their builds, I’m having reservations.
As you serve customers nationwide I thought you might have contracted or recommended installers in my region tied to your product befitting your warranty and the response I received implied he was too busy to bother with me.
If you have a solution or are interested in the project I’m all ears.
Thank you for your response