Searching for the Fastest Tire / Rim Combo
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- Опубликовано: 14 апр 2024
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According to Peak Torque, rolling resistance is the same for the same rubber compound at the correct inflation for the tire width. The gain is being able to have the same rolling resistance at lower pressure in a wider tire, which increases comfort and reduces vibrational losses.
Also, pro tip I just recently realized after years of searching Contis for that little arrow next to the word "rotation." The HUGE pattern that covers both sides of the tire points in the same direction. The small end points in the direction of rotation. I felt like an idiot when I finally realized this. Hope this makes someones life better.
Interesting fact: They have that pattern because it supposedly improves aerodynamic performance of the tire.
Yes! This video answers all the questions I had after the previous tire width video. And those tips for getting the gp5000s on the tire are gold!
I would be wrong but wasn't the other video saying that the 32MM was the best tires to use? @norcalcycling Can you explain the sudden change in tires?
@@irvingabbott6 because these kinds of outdoor tests are almost meaningless. Unless you take the exact same line, put exactly the same power into the crank for every second of the run, hit the exact same pebbles, deal with the exact same wind gusts, etc., you're going to end up losing or gaining a few seconds here and there no matter what.
just watch the videos, 32mm was correct on the rims we used in the other video, 28 was the best on these rims.
This video was another banger.
What I would like to know next is if it makes a difference to have a larger tire on the rear wheel than on the front wheel.
As I've said over 1 year ago: 28c front, 32c in the back and you get it all: comfort + aero
EDIT: it also benefits:
1. Rolling resistance - most of the weight is in the back
2. Aero - the frame-tire gap gets smaller
This would by a good test
I'm with ya!
Business in the front, (comfy) party in the back - the mullet of tire width combos!
Tips on putting the tire worked for me, thanks.
Thanks for the video! One detail I just learned today about rolling resistance, is the tan sidewall version of that same tire is 15% slower.
But tan walls are 64% cooler soo....
@@zoid88 I concur!
You win. You are my favorite bike related channel. Well done!
I demand this video be awarded "best video on youtube." If not only for tire mounting tips.
Your standards are obviously very low...!!!
Thanks as always! Would love to see that 28 + C50 vs say a 32 on a similarly aero optimized wheelset. Maybe get some aero-ish 29er wheels on haha. I'm doing a build with 32mm wide wheels, can't wait.
Aero matters much of the time, rolling resistance matters all of the time. It's not a surprise that you could squeeze out a little performance by rolling smoother while deviating from the ideal aero by a bit. What I wonder now is if you tried 5 tire pressures on each of the fastest widths if you could close the gap.
I agree I would love to see different tire pressures on each setup in the next video
We all know what happens when you change tire pressure.
This entire comment is like, "ok?" Lol, the video is about the fastest tire and rim combo, rolling resistance and aero obviously matters here
Also slicks tires have always been a thing
I made a video about tire pressures already, check out the channel!
Silka, SRAM, etc. have already done the work of computing the optimum pressure for a given tire and rim width, rim type, riding conditions (wet, dry, rough, smooth), etc. The seem to recommend the same pressures for the same conditions, so it seems likely they're all pretty accurate. They could each be wrong by the same amount, but it seems a better use of Jeff's time to tackle questions that the calculators don't answer.
@@darrellstyner0001 I'll be the pessimist. You mean how every road tire manufacture, every pro bike team, and pretty much everyone in the industry believed 180 psi and skinny little tires were faster for many decades? I'd rather see a test to add to the body of evidence that we are heading in the correct direction.
How about a mullet set up? Aero in the front, chonkey bois in the back?
Love the videos!
I was wondering the same thing!
I use 28(29mm actual width) front and 30 (31mm actual width) rear tyre combo on ~29mm external width rim and it is soooo much better then 28/28. No testing on my side, but average speed on routine courses is quite similar, yet control is better and fatigue is substantialy lower.
Same question for me. If you tested again with 28mm at front and 30 then 32 at rear, my guess is that you could improve on the straight 28 results. Could well be wrong
You brought the emphasis of conditioning determines for most part the out come. To many vids place emphasis on equipment over looking how fit you are. Kudos to this video!
Well done, Jeff. Kudos for the finger strengthening exercise.
My next question after this video is what difference mixing tire sizes front/rear will make. For these same wheels, if we take the fastest tire size you tested (28mm), and put it only in front for the best aero/rolling resistance, but throw a 30-32mm in the back to prioritize rolling resistance gains (since supposedly aero is less important for the rear wheel), will it go faster than 28mm front and rear?
You want the front wheels to be wider to break more air and this has already been accomplished by changing the arc of the tires surface usig varying rim widths. The outer rim width on some newer wheelsets have been wider on the front wheels than on the rear because of this actually (see CRW and Elitewheels Drive) by an insane 5mm (34-29mm) on the CRW cs wheels.
Great end message!
What a tricky movement it was. Thank you so much I will use it.
Great follow up to your prior video.
Hi, I'm a female just getting into racing and your videos have helped me a lot. Thank you!
I've been running 28 on the front for aero and 32 on the back for comfort. Could be an interesting thing to test?
Hey nice vid and all but maybe do something with the sound balance ?
Music is waaaaaay too lound and speaking segments I could barely hear.
Had to adjust the volume each time which is pretty annoying
That's odd I didn't hear any music, but I'm on drugs currently.
Those 32mm tires snug into the Scott frame really nicely!
Man kudo's for the matching frame x kit black to blue outfit.
Glad you mentioned the rule of 105 in this one, that was my question from that last vid, 'Is rolling resistance more important than the rule of 105?' have a set of 30c GP5000s on the way for my Roval Rapides hopefully they work out to being a good balance between the rolling resistance and aerodynamics.
Hey Jeff, I love your videos! I would really like to see one where you test protective equipment. Crashes unfortunately happens in this sport, and I'd like to see whether the additional protection is worth the potential speed loss of wearing that equipment. More than helmets, I've seen collarbone, knee, and elbow protectors, and even body armors!
I got the same rims and found that more light bulbing also makes them less stable in side wind so I just use 28mm on them. Didn’t know it was faster.
So, 2 seconds is your error? I think you are spot on with the comfort. And wide rims are always good. You should do more laps each set-up.
Would like to know what size frame everyone rides vs their height, similar to your video looking at what tires and stems everyone rides. Maybe could discuss briefly how each person came to their frame size through their bike fit or what worked/didn't work for them.
putting tires onto a wheel has to the worst experience ever that's why i pay mechanics to do it. And you had to to it about 8 times.... respect
Match the wear indicators with the valve hole so you can find them later! On the Contis they line up with the logo; I don't know if that's true for other tires.
Love these videos. Something to note. Some wheels taper to the leading edge. Making the middle of the rim wider.
I've been searching for the fastest tire and rim combo, but all I found was a vortex of endless bike upgrades! 🚴♂️💨
Great video as always, thanks. +2mm rear tire is also an option - 28mm front/30mm rear or 30mm front/32mm rear depending on rim width. With this set up, you would typically use the same pressure for both tires. Aero concerns are mostly for the front wheel. More rider weight is on the rear wheel. The fatter rear tire should absorb more shock, have better rolling resistance and handle better. The UAE team has used this set up.
Just commented the same thing, my set up is a 28/30. On my TT I run a 25/28 when the roads are smooth.
Tx for the helpful video. It would be interesting if you can test it with 30/32mm wide rims and suitable tires, considering many companies are heading there. Then compare the results with the 28mm wide rims
I would also like to see test with 30 mm external width
I had an interesting thought on a tire's lateral deflection and how that might affect rolling resistance. I'm assuming this would only be an issue when sprinting out of the saddle using increased lateral forces on the bars. Under this scenario, would higher profile tires have higher lateral deflection and would the deflection negatively influence rolling resistance.
Another thought on the higher profile of tires from 25 to 28 to 30s and beyond: If you are using the same power but the tire has a higher profile/ longer runout, won't you be covering more distance vs a lower profile tire.
Love these comparison vids Jeff - now I need to go measure my outer rim width and I'm already guessing it will mean moving from 25s to 28s.
you'll be shocked at the difference in feel
Check hollowgram knot 64 with 23tire.
In my opinion one of the fastest wheel for flat roads))
Huge 32mm outer rim width - Helps air flow off a large tyre (26+mm) re-attach more smoothly to the rim, reducing drag. Only possible with disc-only design. Optimized for 23c (26mm) tire but, unlike other wheels, the KNØT 64 design exhibits minimal change with even larger tires, giving riders the option to go bigger without significant aero penalty.
Any way you can test out of your comfort zone? I’m curious about climbing Mt Madonna or a longer climb like Henry Coe. What size tire would be optimal on a climb?
i was surprised you suddenly sent a picture of a Tirich Infinite, which is a bike sold most of the time in selected countries in Asia, but most of the time in the Philippines. costing around 212 dollars when converted, which is considered a low-mid budget for an aero disc bike.
What would be your opinion on having say a 28 on the front and a 30 on the rear (with those DA wheels)? Will there be a front/rear difference in the aerodynamic effect vs the bigger volume etc?
What about different sizes in the front and the rear? It might work pretty nicely to combine 28 front and 30 or even 32 rear. I mean something like fast and comfy… what do you think about it? Is the rear as aerodynamically important as the front (I don't think so)?
Hi , what do you think about quality of dac50 vs roval rapide clx, I had c24 DA and make some best time on my well known rout and change it for clx 40 rapide with ceramic bearings and was slower about 1 km h I dont understant it Thanks
What you're measuring using vernier caliper isn't diameter, it's width.
I know it was Paris Roubaix but the average speed this year was crazy high so aero is mega important and VDP ran 32mm tyres on the Dura Ace 28mm rims. Wonder what he ran at Amstel Gold?
Great vid. Once you've checked a mullet setup can you check butyl vs TPU?
Vs latex
Thanks for the great content! Curious how you square these results with the results from your "How wide is too wide" video?
The 32s in that test were much faster than the 28s. Obviously key test differences would be test wheelsets (35mm wide Roval Rapide CLX IIs + 28.5mm wide Lun Hypers vs 28mm wide DA C50s), power output, and tire make/model (Vittoria vs Conti). But still, if you were doing some test runs on the Hypers in that previous video, there would've been some tire combos way less aero than the 1.05 rule that were nevertheless significantly faster (i.e., the 32mm tire mounted to the 28.5mm wide Hypers).
Watch this whole video
@@NorCalCycling Got ahead of myself, thanks! So just to clarify, all the data in the "too wide" video are from the Rovals?
I'm running Bontrager Aeolus Pro 37 (int width 21mm,ext 28mm) with Vittoria Rubino Pro 28 mm tyres at 70 psi for my 80 kg frame. Huge improvement from the 700 x 23 c at 100psi I've been running for most of my riding life! 😂
For my TT bike setup I've got Bontrager Aeolus XXX 6 Front wheel which i think has a 21/22mm inner width currently Ive got a 25c GP 5000s on there. Not sure what the outer width is. On the back I have a disc wheel(race setup) with a 28c GP5000s. Not sure about this width at all. My Qs is, do I change the front to 28c or because of the potentially skinny wheel width I keep the 25c on there. Im racing a IM 70.3 this weekend a d want to be as fast as I can.
what do you think is fastest wheels overall that you've tested. Rovals? DuraAce? Reserve?
How about testing a suspension (or Paris Roubaix specific) stem and saddle post compared to regular road stem and saddle post? Can there be any significant aero penalty?
I put 28mm 4seasons on my Elite 25mm deep section rims and the ratio is almost 1:1. I get a nice cushy high volume tyre with skinny aero benefits.
I think you should change to something faster. GP5K vs 4 Seasons, that's the mass gain here. That will offset any of these marginal stuffs. If possible, deeper wheel then. Obviously that's not cost effective but in terms of gain, that will still offset anything about this ratio thing.
@@xuchenglin6256 Yeah agreed 5000s would be fast for track and crit but the roads around here... i need that puncture resistance and assurances for Time trials.
so to sum it up:
Go as wide as you can starting at 28mm but try to keep as close to the ratio of 1.05 right?
Now that you have said that, we want to see the difference between tyre installed in right rotation direction and wrong =)
i have seen people do it with these same tires and it really didn't make any difference which make sense because these specific tires have very little thread and really all the thread it has is mostly just for looks. with tires that have actually functional thread the tire direction makes alot of difference and it is very noticeable.
It might not make a difference in rolling resistance but I'm very certain it will make a difference in grip especially while cornering at high speeds downhill
@@sueghdsifbvjvn I look forward to seeing the results of your test of this theory on your RUclips channel....
@@nebulous962 It makes a significant difference on GP's, because the tread contributes to the low aero drag of the tyre.
@@joebusby1 i can see how that could be real.
I watched this video the day it came out, but 2w later I found myself thinking about it again as I was putting on new tires. If you have the ability to do this, Jeff, I think it would be really cool to repeat this while motor pacing at ~30mph to better replicate pack racing. Probably would require multiple runs to insure accurate results of each tire but you could also cut out the 25c.
Hey you read my comments and retested! Awesome!
What is the bike model actually? I loved it even I haven't money enough 😅
Outside diameter? Or do you mean outside width?
If I ran what Silca recommended for tubes I'd have pinch flats left and right. It makes them slower because it's way too low. I ride 95psi with 28mm. Ride feels absolutely fine, and it's fast.
Tell us how we can get in to these bike races and join in on all the fun of racing
Your testing vids are getting better and better, even the process part is now enjoying! You have come this far, why not test different FRONT and REAR tire width next??? We all know the front end is the most crucial part of aero, rear end, not so much. Now that you have established 28mm as the baseline, just try 25 front and 28 rear, 28 front and 32 rear, 25 and 32 rear. See if this could give us some more insights.
Anecdotally I current run 25 mm GP5K TL (the previous version) at front and 28 mm Schwalbe Pro One at rear. My rim is not so wide, I believe they were optimized for 25mm at the time, with 28mm on, I get that little bulge (you can feel it just by run your fingers through), but with 25mm it's smooth and flat, even ever slightly narrower than the rim. Even though that 25 GP5k is somewhere about 8000 km old and at its end of life, my feeling is 25 mm still "seems" faster, and "feels" more stable in the wind. Tires are so expensive now so it's not possible for me to do the test ourselves. We are all looking up to you now, Bro!
What I want to see is the following:
- Aero Bike with Aero wheels and your choice of tire
- Ti ( round tubes ) or Aluminum or Steel with the same aero wheels and tire.
That is the comparison you never see, not even GCN is willing to do that comparison.
Can you pls Jeff do this comparison for us?
Thanks
Super informative, thanks! I guess rims are going to be wider as the years go by, so we'll be able to match wider tyres without the aero penalty of neglecting that 105 rule. The pursuit of marginal gains that empties our pockets and keeps the industry up and running 🤪
Next vid, comparison between wide rim internal mid depth vs 19mm rim internal deep section.
I have 25mm internals so should I run 30mm tires?
Id love to see some combo setups tested front to rear. I cant see why this wouldn't be the best case?!
25f/28r 25f/30r 28f/30r 28f/32r
How about 28 front and 30 rear with Elitewheels drive 40?
Regarding direction it doesn't make a difference for road bike tires, if you mount them backwards. Schwalbe said in an FAQ that it does not matter and that the arrows are purely decorative
Thats not always true. Thats especially not true for conti gp tires. The tread on gp tires have aerodynamic and water shedding function that certainly do not work in reverse.
As fast as possible, for as cheap as possible👍 That rings true for us at Formula 369!
Random inquiry, but are you changing the tubes? I use the Specialized Road Turbo Presta Valve Tube With Talc tubes that say they are for 20-26, I've always run 26s, but now plan to shift up per your findings here. What size / style tubes are you running? Thanks!
for this testing i used tubes for convenience, but since about 2022 i switched to tubeless. you can get away with using 20-26 tubes in 26+ tires it'll just stretch and be more prone to flats.
@@NorCalCycling thank you!
3:50 I've changed my tires countless times and am bothered by how easy you made that look. I still have to revert to levers and caveman style grunting 😂 Huge fan of your channel by the way
I got the Shimano C46 (105 version of these wheels). They are so much easier to mount on than my older Mavic and DT Swiss wheels.
I have a couch engineers aero theory of which i'm very curious about in real world results. What ive learned about aerodynamics is that you want to attach the airflow in the front and detach airflow at the rear so i run a 28mm up front and a 30mm in the rear for a conscious light bulb effect. PS. 28mm wide rim.
I think I have heard of people doing this before on tt bikes, 23mm front 25mm rear
I believe the air flow is ALREADY turbulent by the time it gets to the rear wheel, so having a more comfortable, lower rolling resistance tire (consistent with the frame, of course) makes sense.
I'm also a couch engineer, but I think the idea is to keep the airflow attached as long as possible, whether in front or in back. This is why aero bikes have deeper sections. Attached air is always good. The light bulb effect is never desirable.
The one thing that you have not tested is a more narrow aero tire up front and a better rolling wider tire in back. It is simple, aero is more important in the front and rolling resistance is more important in the rear. You should test this.
Thoughts on running 25 front 28 back?
nothank you, 25s feel so harsh and unless you have super narrow rims they will be slower too
Whats the link to calculate tire pressure
So funny how for decades we ran on 23mm, 21mm, and even 19mm tires without complaint, and now a 25mm tire feels unsafe. Hmmm...'
But yeah, I really like my 28mm tubeless tires & wheels.
Im on rim brake my internal is 21 and external 25 and my 30's measures 31.2 so definitely not aero but hard to find wide rim brake wheels
OK, now show us a mullet set up. 28/30, 30/32, 28/32 so you get some aero on the front, but you get better rolling resistance with the 30+ on the back. I’m rolling 28/30 and love it.
Have you considered that basically all measurements could be within the same range, i.e., the impact is much smaller than the uncertainty, and the 28s are just an outlier? There are so many uncontrolled influences that this kind of testing is simply inconclusive.
ya it's possible, but the 25mm test duplicated gave me some reassurance, and so did the consistency between these tests and the tests done with the wider rovals (discussed towards the end of the video)
So I guess 30mm is the sweet spot? Just have to get the right size rims. Also what is the cornering difference between 28 and 30mm?
Not necessarily - it depends on the outer width of your wheels. If you have wider wheels like the 35mm wide rovals in the previous video, 32mm tires would be faster.
Nice video but please have a look at the volume mixing. As a headphone user the music is really really loud compared to the rest of the video.
That is one thing I don't understand with the tires coming off hookless rims in the world tour. I read that at least one of them was running 25s which is narrower than recomended. Why wouldn't they just run 28s since the rim is so wide. There would be no advantage to 25s at all. And note, I am not debating hookless rims. I am nervous about them myself for road. I am asking about their tire width choice.
Would the 25s roll better with a higher psi in the tire? I've seen some test them from 120 down... I'm curious what you would fine if you ran them at 110 of 100 psi.
we made this video already! lower is faster, it was surprising
@NorCalCycling I'm a 150lbs rider with the 25s and I usually run them at like 100psi, so I should go down to like 90???
no, probably much lower, check out my video on tire pressures.
when using the psi calc. base it off actual tire width when inflated
correct. watch the video i talk about this.
@@NorCalCycling I'll have to rewatch it, I maybe missed that part.
Jeff, which GP5000 size would you recommend for 28mm external / 21mm internal rim width?
all depends on how it measures once inflated but i would go 1.00-1.05 the rim outside width, unless that gives you a 25, i would make 28mm the minimum
@@NorCalCycling I have 25mm now and effectively is 26 so around 1.077, but no idea how to predict how 28mm or 30mm will look on my rim.
Do you think that 30mm gp5000 tire will have the same width on every 21 internal rim, independently of rim brand/shape?
First dud I could see would know the correct way to mount a tire. I would only suggest to use both hands at the same time on each half of the wheel to center the tire toward a valve. Just nitpicking. 👍
thanks for the sore fingers!!!!!
28mm front and 32mm rear should be the fastest probably. Most of the rolling resistance gains come from the rear wheel. The dura-ace C50 are surprisingly narrow.
good video
what are the Roval wheels referred to in the video with 35 mm external width? Thank you
CLX50
@@NorCalCycling cheers
Will try out 28c in the front with a 32c in the back this season. Is it the perfect mix of aero, comfort and rolling resistance? I don't know, I dont care, but I'll have fun riding my bike. 😁
Can you add the video with Will and the Roval CLX
added as a card at the part in the video i reference it, thanks!
If higher volume tyres are good then surely a higher volume rider is a good thing. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Ya, all of my 240 lbs agrees
Width of the tire, not diameter.
Love the videos btw!
How here the 32 are slower and in a previous video 32 where the fastest tire? What I am understanding wrong?
just watch this whole video, i address it directly, it has to do with rim size not just tire size
@@NorCalCyclingok, so, I use hyper wheels, outer diameter is 29,2/tires are 28mm, that combination is similar to your 27,2/25mm tires. If I go to 30mm then 29,2/30mm combination will be as your 27,2/28mm.
Violating that “aero” combination set should be a bit faster and comfortable in my case. Gonna check that out.
Audio balance on this one is all over. The B roll music is super loud but your speaking sections are super quiet.
I think bike rolling resistance found out that the Vittoria corsa pro speed were the fastest tyres, would definitely give it a go
Not very fast to be repairing a flat on the side of the road 😢
The Flo wind tunnel study showed that the 105 rule applies at bigger angles of attack. At low angle of attack the advantage of 105 to 100% is negligible. So you might see greater benefits at big windspeeds from the side. I also noticed the silca calculator recommended way higher pressures for 25mm setups than the sram calculator, almost a whole bar more. At 28mm the recommendations are very similar. IMHO silcas recommendation for 25mm is way too high. As a result, your test run might show increased rolling resistance for the 25mm setup.
I see your butyl tube and raise to TPU…great video!
It would interesting to see you do this test at different average speeds. Maybe 20mph avg and then 25 mph avg
we did! check the last video about tire size where we changed average speed
@@NorCalCycling Ok perfect thanks!
Jeff are you running them with tubes or tubeless?
tubes in this testing, for the sake of getting all the tests done. but I use them tubeless for all other riding.
@@NorCalCycling thanks for clarification. Based on my testing on hookless rims, on reverse papa bear no power just rolling, 28’ have been consistently the fastest. ( it’s really a complete bs that I can’t use them anymore due to hookless recommendations) I have done so far 8 tests.
this was all with tubs? not tubeless?
tubes because changing tubeless on 8 wheels in a day seemed like a bad option
Really surprised your GP5000s don't blow up wide. My 28mm tyres blew up to 30.5mm its mad
it has to do with the internal width of the rim, not the tire
@@NorCalCycling I’m riding the same 21/28 width as those C50 wheels. My GP5000s are an absolute balloon.