My son did 2 years in prison for a drug related crime. During that time, he finished his online degree, read 50 Catholic books which he requested and helped others to study for their GED. Do I think that the cost of perhaps paying for treatment would be cheaper on the system, yes. HOWEVER, he had received treatment before and, I believe this was God's next step. My son, in the prison system saw acts of kindness that helped him to see that he had much in his life to be grateful for. Would a father that hadn't abandoned him at an early age have been better? Yes, but that didn't happen and God used prison to make him see that he had to grow up. He now has been clean for 12 years and is raising his son Catholic - and raising him to be a man without the ungratefulness that he had. My son never said that he didn't deserve prison.
@@TF80s Thank you! He already has. My grandson (this son's little boy) , age 10, just requested a Douay Rheims Bible the last time I was there. He heard that it was the best. He is an altar boy and has his future narrowed down to either a lawyer or a Priest.
@@serehero4722 It was the federal prison system. They did not pay for his online college. He studied and mailed in his work. He was able to do his last 6 months in a half-way house in our town. They did also have a federal email system and could make phone calls. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that prison is the perfect solution for non violent crimes. What I am saying is that God was able to use it. I believe in showing EVERYONE respect. I believe that my son carried forward as he owned his sins and took accountability.
How apt it is for such a beautiful story of conversion and growth to happen to the son of someone with the same blessed name as St. Monica. May she and her son, St. Augustine, keep praying for you and for your family!
Fr. Casey is confused. Slavery is not the same as incarceration. Slaves are not paying for crimes they committed, prisoners are. Prisoners have been found guilty of some action that damages society, it's a different argument as to whether that finding is just or not. Slavery has similarities to imprisonment in the lack of freedom and forced behavior, but is fundamentally different. A priest who does not see that needs to examine basic definitions before taking to the airways. God bless you Trent and God bless Fr. Casey.
I totally agree. And I believe Father Casey may be still too young to understand that the "the devil is in the details" [so to speak]. Even if one looks similar to the other, they are factually not the same. However, in his defense, I think that he was not really trying to compare innocent people with the prisoners per se, but that we should not rejoice in their suffering, nor make them do stuff that goes beyond what is just. Afterall: «God doesn't desire the death of a sinner, but that he would return from his evil way, and he will live.» If we take a deep breath and try to analyze why Father Casey made the comments he did, I think it becomes more clear that was his actual intention... and he may be still too young as I said, but he is not entirely wrong. He only needs more discernment and fortitude to make the message clear.
This is not true in all cases. Indentured servitude, such as that experienced by prisoners in early Australia was slavery in which the slave (entrusted to a slave owner) worked their way out of slavery into freedom. It was a contractual arrangement that provided the slave owner with free labour and the slave with a means to avoid imprisonment (which at the time was overcrowded and you'd likely end up dead from disease). Modern China uses a form of this but their prisoners are slave labour and their labour is valueless (i.e. doesn't reduce their sentence or produce personal income). Most labour that is unpaid is technically slavery and modern slavery is a persistent problem. The two areas are pretty grey, and you can see how one can slip into another. Fr. Casey is a bit over-emotional but he does it to drive home a point that's usually less explored, and you have to take it with some healthy scepticism.
@@GranMaese I agree with you. The prison system needs an overhaul. As Americans it’s commonplace to hear people joke about the fact that people get r@ped in prison all the time! You’re paying for a crime behind bars, not to be violated and have part of your dignity stolen from you. There are plenty of stories where people get locked up and they’re later released because they were found innocent. Yet, while they were in jail they were violated… I get no system is perfect, but I think Fr. Casey and many friars seems to have this sense that all human lives deserve a certain amount of dignity. I’m not saying to let people who are dangerous roam free in society, but a lot of the things that occur are messed up. I read a memoir called “Fish” and I found it really disturbing what goes on in the prison.
As someone who has worked for 30 years in a correctional system and whose job every day is to insure all those in our custody have an opportunity for education, training, treatment for substance use and mental health needs, THANK YOU for this response. I think Fr. Casey has probably been listening to an advocacy group position rather than visiting prisons, seeing the imprisoned and talking to them, and talking to the wardens and staff. I have many stories of the formerly incarcerated and their families who thank me and those who work with me for saving their lives. Thank you for the quote from JP II the Great as well. I knew the quote but couldn’t remember who said it!
And, as I'm sure you know, prison advocacy groups are full of statements from inmates. Many of Whom anyone in corrections can tell you will say absolutely anything to get some benefit. They are master manipulators and liars and are very good at getting gullible bleeding hearts to side with them.
Thanks for your service-I’ve been in the field 15 years and Fr. Casey got many things wrong in his video. I hope he can become more educated and help with an alternative system--
what about all of the things we see, like crimes, murders, beatings, gangs, racism, loan sharking, rape, etc.? do these things not actually happen in jails and prisons?
Working while in jail is actually keeping the inmates busy so they don't get bored or into trouble. It also acts as a repayment to society for the crimes they commit. Even learning a trade.
Father Casey is a poor systematic thinker. Frankly, if you wanted a secularist modernist perspective, there are numerous people outside of the church who make better arguments. The problem with Father Casey is when he misrepresents the teachings of the Church and lays undue burden on the people. He has particular responsibilities as a priest not to do that.
As a former law enforcement officer, I must agree with you, Mr. Horn, on your treatment of this issue. Yes, there are abusive prison wardens whose officers would follow suit with their abuses of prisoners; however, I know a number of prisons and jails that treat prisoners justly and treat them with dignity. You have to remember, most prioners, although not all, are rightly accused and sentenced subsequent to trial. Many are hardened and repeat offenders. Making them work for some of their personal amenities, e.g., cigarettes, shave cream, etc, is not wrong. Likewise, contributing to work for the betterment of their immediate community makes for a healthier perspective on life outside prison. In fact, in many cases, it is safer and healthier inside the prison walls than the environment from whence they came. I would also say that most are treated very humanely and respectfully. Three squares a day, television, outdoor activities, showers, clean bedding, medical care, etc. I believe Fr. Casey is coming from a place of ignorance about life inside prison. Yes, there can be extremes on punishment, i.e. solitary confinement, but those are usually qualified by prisoner behavior and the safety of other inmates. Good commentary. Thank you.
@@thecalderasiblings7198 Define "doing gloriously" - Numbers? Institutions? Stand outs and saints? You should check out Jesuit High School in New Orleans!
As a Retired prison worker , thank you, trained inmates in the trades. All volunteered to work and got paid.$1.50 a day. Towards the end of my career, it is said to have cost $50,000 a year for each inmate to provide three meals, a day, a place to sleep, and to maintain the buildings. I was making $42000 a year.
And do you think that $1.50 prevented violence? Was the inmate getting paid $1.50 per day worth it so you can go home safely to your family after your day working at the prison? I ask because Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Texas do not pay there inmates anything, $0, and those prison systems have a much higher rate of violence among inmate and staff alike. Thank you for your work in the prisons, that is a hard profession, I mean that sincerely. God bless you brother.
@@Hope785 I'm butting in, but generally, treating prisoners like real people (not only paying for their labour) and actually giving them a chance to reform and reintegrate gives much better results than just throwing them in a cell expecting them to do better next time in society, after some 10 years of being forgotten and alienated in prison.
@Iacobus I totally agree with you. Treating incarcerated individuals with the dignity they deserve does help lower recidivism rates. The majority of those incarcerated come from broken homes and they were treated like dirt for the majority of their lives. Perhaps if they were treated well for once, it would actually help them on the inside and the outside. Iacobus, thank you for your comment. May God bless you and your family.
That's actually pretty slimy, what Father Casey was doing, in getting people emotionally repulsed by talking about slavery and then bringing up prison to try and get people emotionally repulsed by it, too. There are several very important differences between prison incarceration and chattel slavery.
Fr. Casey has a very pleasant and wholesome-looking face. It makes you want to see him as a nice guy who perhaps is just too pollyanna and naive to deal with the more gritty parts of social teaching. What you suggest is more manipulative and subversive. I want to give the benefit of charity to Fr. Casey but we are also told to be as wise as serpents. It may be all very calculated.
@@kevinkelly2162 Not really. It's the differences that matter, not the similarities. In chattel slavery, you are kidnapping an innocent person and forcing him into labor. With prison incarceration, the person *deserves* the punishment he gets *and* should be taken off the streets because he's a danger to society at large.
@@hellopaule Sure, it's admirable to give him the benefit of the doubt. But he's pontificating on a matter of morality *and* he obviously desires a public platform because he is using it to push his ideas. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but he should know better. Especially as I'm sure he's been through seminary, being a priest. But I won't begrudge anyone who wishes to give him the benefit of the doubt.
@@clintonwilcox4690 Nobody in their right mind would claim the American justice system metes out equal justice to all regardless of race creed or financial situation. I hope you get what you deserve.
I dare Fr. Casey to walk up to a criminal's victim and and explain that it is just that they will continue to be victimized every spring so the criminal can sit in comfort while they themselves suffer to provide for him.
He wouldn’t, we know that, at least we hope it. It seems he lives in an ivory tower. I pray God humbles him with some traumatic event, like he did for me, and that he live through it and repent and gets to heaven. Although, I was many worlds apart from Casey even then, opposite of the sin spectrum you could say, but it was still from intellectual pride.
I vaguely remember. Was it the one where Father Casey said we don’t know historically what happened in the gospels? If so, I never saw Casey’s response. You have a link?
@@jeremysmith7176 Thanks. I used to subscribe to Father Casey’s channel but he started saying enough off the wall stuff to where he became unreliable as a pseudo pastoral advisor.
@@BigPhilly15 Yes, I used to subscribe too. When he got all click-baitey and controversial, I unsubscribed. I think there was one video he did where he tried to get cute on the abortion debate and had to make a video trying to explain himself (if memory serves me). I will pray that the spirit of the Zeitgeist will leave these young priests. That they follow the Catechism, the Bible, and the Traditions of the Church - and reject the Zeitgeist as it only leads to error and confusion.
There's an aspect to Fr Casey's video (which I watched all the way through) that rubs me the wrong way, and I see it in similar kinds of arguments (often, if I may be honest, with the USCCB when they criticize immigration laws). Fr Casey prefaces his video by saying something along the lines of "of course, some people do need to be locked away for the safety of others", almost as a way to preemptively shield himself from accusations of being too far left. The thing is, though, is that you can put that kind of statement, no matter how extreme it is, in order to make it look like a sensible, moderate position. "Of course, countries have a right to enforce their borders, but turning any migrant away who tries to cross the U.S/Mexico border is inhumane and against Church social teaching." When have we heard something like that before? I hope what I'm getting at makes sense to people. When applying Church social teaching to stuff like this (the prison system, immigration, etc), I only ever see criticism of when it is unjustly done (and primarily when it is too strict), and no celebration of when it is justly performed, nor criticism of when it is unjustly done out of neglect. It gives off the idea that the Church is against these institutions entirely, which I know is not true.
And he doesn't understand church teaching on punishment. The govenment doesn't just lock people away for safety, but to do justice for the crimes they committed
That was very well put. They have little of the clarity of an encyclical like evangelium vitae. They don't appear to even be careful about their presentation. Their haracterizations of these difficult topics at time seems to border on reputation destruction or is at least deeply unfair.
I followed Casey from the time of his novice days until after his ordination. I'm a revert to the Faith. I left because nobody needs the Church if Casey's teaching is right. It's what I grew up with in the 1970s. By the grace of God, listening to one lecture by Father Chad Ripperger on Confession (uploaded on Sensus Fidelium), the scales dropped from my eyes, and I suddenly saw the truth of the Catholic Faith. That's why I listen to Trent Horn and others who teach it straight. P.S. As always, 3 Aves for the teacher here - Trent. And 3 for Father Casey.
I agree that Casey on two occasions has made some comments which is not to my liking (this is one). But I think we owe him charity and goodwill - he is usually correct and gives useful advice. Also, he has laid down his life in service of the Church. I think therefore we owe him some respect.
Ripperger is just as extreme as Casey, just in another direction. His condemnation of the Mass as well as his claims that God hates anyone who ever feels fear are pure heresy.
@@kell_checks_in i listen to Ripperger a lot. Where exactly does he say condemn the mass or claim "that God hates anyone who ever feels fear"? Bearing false witness is a sin.
My husband is in the Military. In a post by our house, there is a low security prison camp. The offenders there split wood, stack wood, do all kinds of lawn/outdoor maintenance. Some of them do janitorial work inside some of the buildings on post. Most of the guys that my husband has talked to, in this program, like the work and like to be busy. They aren’t supposed to give the offenders anything, but they often times get tobacco and other things. Where I’m going with this is that some of the problems in the prison systems are caused by violent inmates. I’m not sure how we can fix that. You know I don’t want anyone in person to not have what they need, but how do we protect them from other members of the prison population that do cause problems?
Fr. Casey just has a liberal worldview which is why he gets every social issue completely backwards. He seems to be a nice dude but liberalism is literally making it incapable for him to call a spade a spade. He so often shows more sympathy for the victimizers than the victims. He needs to just dump the liberal worldview completely because it perverts everything. We are surprised when he comes to the wrong conclusion but he is literally just following the liberal way of reasoning cut that tree down and if he roots his way of looking at social issues from a more conservative and say Catholic perspective he will have a more true worldview than the one he currently holds.
I couldn’t agree more. He seems like a nice kid, loves God, wants to do good in the world. However, and I think ministering on a college campus doesn’t help, he’s very far left. I went through a lefty phase in my 20s but grew out of it. Hopefully he does the same. One of the beauties of our Faith is we don’t have to rely on political men to know what’s right, we have Jesus.
I have the same impression. I was shocked about his fierce defense of Pope Francis, overlooking Pachamamas and obvious heresies. One more clergyman in my prayers.
I watched Fr. Casey's full video. I think comparing imprisonment as justice due with slavery is off the mark. Slaves are exploited people who are denied their basic dignity and abused simply because they are powerless (either by criminals or inhumane governments), while imprisonment is a form of justice. People are imprisoned, denied a certain degree of freedom, because they have abused their freedom or have taken away the freedom or/and the dignity of others. If prisons are like hotel rooms where people enjoy themselves and get paid for work, you can imagine whether crimes will go down or up.
I believe it's Sweden that has very "comfy" prisons, and yet their rehab rates are still incredibly high. The cells aren't cold and hard, they're like smaller basic appartments.
Actually yes, you can imagine it. Who do you think gets reintegrated more into society, people basically tortured for years suffering inhumane conditions or those that are shown compassion and dignity? Do you think Jesus, who taught to turn the other cheek, who taught to respond to injustice not with another injustice perpetuating the circle of evil but with love and forgiveness would be for hard imprisonment and forced unpaid labour? Find me where Jesus taught that sin or violence should be responded to with a hard physically punishing prison sentence. I can find you 50 times where he says quite the opposite. Also if you did actually watch the video then you should know that he didn’t expect prisons to have amenities like hotels. He is particularly criticizing hard prisons that strip prisoners of every dignity every human should have.
What part of “Love your neighbor like yourself” is compatible with hard punishing prison? If found guilty of a crime would you want to live like that, is that something you would wish for your son or father? Or would you rather stay in a place where the goal isn’t to make you suffer but to show what you did wrong and teach you how to get back into society if possible? I highly doubt that you would be in favor of unpaid physical strenuous labor often in precarious working conditions if it were you or a close relative that had to do it.
@@GranMaese I don't understand how you are interpreting my comment. Fr. Casey has a great following, and he needs to be corrected when he states something of this magnitude that is not in line with Catholic teaching.
I just wonder what Fr Casey’s solution is. The existence of the modern prison system is part of the reason why we no longer need to use the death penalty. So if we say that imprisonment is also wrong, then what should we do with dangerous criminals?
I’ve been at this level of absurd leftism before, and they genuinely think crime will stop if we just remove poverty and mental health issues. A Catholic priest should know better, so maybe he thinks we should put them in treatment facilities or something.
Not to gang up on Fr. Casey, but on occasion, he makes a statement on something that makes me want to pull out my hair and throw a ham and swiss sandwich into the ocean -- literally speaking.
Fr Casey is probably reading your comment. Would you say such a comment to his face? Would he find the characterisation true or take it as a compliment? Just questions as food for thought.
Father Casey is very much a troubling figure with how he bends truth. Not as bad as a Father James Martin, but many of the same principles exist between the two, as well as the confusion they lead others to.
It’s like a full time job to always correct Fr. Casey & Fr. Martin with all their liberal nonsense they try to mislead the faithful with. Thank you so much Trent, you are truly doing God’s work, may God continue to bless you & your work!
Prisons being "first and foremost about retribution and punishment" is a COMPLEMENT. Catechism 2266 literally requires that that is the primary reason for punishment of criminals "to redress the disorder caused by the offense." Trent did a great job with this. As someone who has had the at times great displeasure of being involved in criminal justice, I can tell you this is not fun, we don't do it in anger or for our self satisfaction. We do it because it is just, and to protect society, and hopefully, God willing, if the prisoner repents, do our small part in helping God reform the prisoner.
You can make a whole other channel dedicated to rebutting Fr Casey Cole's claims. As I always say, he is a great teacher of our Catechism, but is completely ignorant when it comes to social, economic, or political topics, aka he's woke.
He can't be a great teacher of the catechism, this whole video is about how he doesn't understand catechism 2266. 2266 is directly from evangelium vitae which Trent quotes in this
I think it is worth pointing out that a lot of prisoners incarcerated for possession of an illegal substance are usually plea deals taken by the accused. Often, they are drug dealers themselves carrying large amounts of illegal drugs.
Yep. However when you make this argument with the anti-jail, usually pro-marijuana crowd, they just shrug it off and say that they should be released anyway, and that if it leads to an enormous increase in crime and cost of investigations, so be it.
Yes, and besides drug dealing, many of those who get these plea deals also had violent crimes attached to to as well that got dropped in the deal. When you’re looking at whether or not someone’s sentencing is fair, you have to find the full context of what they actually did, not just the plea deal they got
But the number of people who are actually imprisoned for possession when the amount is small is extremely miniscule: there are people imprisoned whose charges are that of minor possession, but the vast majority of those cases were people who were initially charged with much stronger crimes (like possession with intent) and their charges were reduced for their plea deals, or something similar.
I remember a comment from Peterson, something along these lines: prison also seek justice to been done so that victims would not “need” to revenge. So in a way, it protect the offender.
Excellent, sir Trent. I do pray that your offer for future dialogue be accepted so that these divisive issues can be brought to light. Work has ALWAYS been part of our mission as human beings, lending itself to our own dignity before God. We are made for works, even before The Fall, and as Ephesians 2:10 clearly states. Without works, we aren't human. We ALL must work according to our capacity. And how much more blessed is it to use this temporal time to work our our salvation with the help of His grace, especially if we've committed great sin? I pray God's great mercy on these prisoners; that their works be redemptive for salvation, bringing for fruit worthy of repentance in this life and the next. Lord have mercy. Christ have mercy. 🌹🙏
A big problem with Father Casey’s argument is his characterisation of slavery, which Trent gets into. It’s very sensationalistic. There are two kinds of slavery, chattel and servile. What he has described is, in fact, chattel, or the ownership of a human being, usually through abducting them, subjugating them and their families, to slavery and dehumanisation-which is wrong. Servile slavery is based on debt and payment. A servant works to pay off some debt (whether social, private, or otherwise) *OR* is payed through other means than wages. A servant is a worker, with rights, and perhaps even freedoms depending on his station and circumstances, but a chattel slave has been reduced to the level of beasts, like what we saw with American slavery, the slavery of the Hebrews, and so on.
Father Casey is a good human being. I think he would largely agree with many of the points that Trent makes in this video. I think Father Casey just wrote a script that removed too much of the nuance from this issue. Fact: the prison system in the USA is corrupt and not functioning according to the desires of the majority of voters and is contrary to God's will. Also fact: We need to incarcerate criminals and make them work to support the portions of law enforcement and the justice system that are required because of their criminal behavior.
Father Casey is certainly earnest. However in this he is simply wrong, not missing nuance. He is just wrong that we have to pay prisoners. He is wrong that if we do pay them we can't take money from them for restitution and essentially taxes for their costs. And he is wrong that our prison system is structured as if we owned the prisoners. (With exception of perhaps some of the for-profit prisons). These errors of his are separate from the question of whether he is right that our system needs both reform and constant vigilance. But this has always been true about every area of government Force, and even every area of government action
My objection was his suggestion that retribution is the same as revenge and therefore isn’t Christian. In his view the only reason to lock someone up is to protect society from a dangerous individual. But that’s not the only reason or even the main reason for incarceration. Taking away liberty is, yes, punishment, which is necessary for any functioning system of justice.
5 years ago: The US institutes prison reform and criminal justice reform. Along the lines of what Fr. Casey wants. Today: criminals are more emboldened than ever. every type of crime is up. Criminals don’t see prison as punishment anymore because they won’t serve time. Some cities it is expected that you will get robbed or assaulted and law is not enforced because the criminals run the city. At the same time Fr. Casey: we need a lot more of what we have been doing because it’s been working really well over the past 5 years. For the criminals and normal decent productive members of society. Fr. Casey with the 100% wrong take once again.
@@jonpaulpepen9470 ummm my common sense and my rational faculties. Along with you know looking at nation wide crime statistics. It’s not that difficult bud you don’t need a 3 time peer reviewed study to say that 2+2 equals 4 and that a man is not a women let’s keep up here.
@@shane9095 lol I had a feeling that was the case. The problem is that “common sense” works great getting you through everyday life but anything more complex than that, well that’s why God gave us an intellect. Your original response is a poster child of some recent research from Pew showing that while rates most types of crime in the US have dropped 40-80% over the last 50 years, over 70% of American adults have the perception that crime has dramatically risen (it has a little bit post pandemic, but nothing even remotely close to the rates we saw even 15 years ago). I don’t necessarily think everything we’ve been doing during the last 30 years are ideal, but to say that it’s 100% wrong just doesn’t seem well supported based on any data I’ve seen. But I’m not married to this assessment and I’m always happy to change my mind when presented with new information. As to whether Fr Casey is 100% wrong, well even Trent highlighted some important ideas he was spot on for, and I agreed with just about everything Trent said in this video.
@@jonpaulpepen9470 Dude you conceded the point I’m literally saying that crime is going up post jail reform policies lol. We implemented these policies 5 years ago it is around 2018/2019 and what do you know almost immediately crime rates go up. And you cite this pew study as a rebuke to my point lol. Also you are mistaken because you are taking the statistics provided at face value. Most crimes especially in more liberal cities/ states are just not investigated, or they are just not even considered crimes anymore. Think of Californias law that people can steal up to $995 of merchandise before they will be arrested and charged and say that hasn’t increased shoplifting lol. Just think of this hypothetical situation. Lets just say hypothetically marijuana arrests drastically go down in one year so a rational person may assume maybe that means marijuana is being used less by the general population but let’s say you fail to mention to that person that marijuana was legalized at the beginning of that year. So people are still doing the same thing if not more than before they just aren’t being arrested for it so it doesn’t show up in the stats. Think about all the DA’s who have said not to investigate certain crimes or crimes that are no longer considered crimes anymore or serious crimes that are plead down to less serious crimes. Again you are just lying with statistics and you can cite Pew to try and tell everyone how what they are seeing with their own two eyes is wrong but I’m not gonna believe it because it just is not correct. It’s not correct from a common sense perspective, from a rational perspective, and if you got the unaltered stats they would support the reality I am talking about and that everyone else is living in. Look at a city like San Francisco or New York and tell me it is just as safe and their is less crime than 10 years ago.
I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater on this issue. Sweden has arguably "comfy" prisons and yet their rehab rate is still incredibly high, whereas America is the poster child for reoffenders. Criminals should NOT be allowed to keep committing crimes, for the common folk's sake, but once imprisoned prisoners still need to be treated like people. The biggest issue with prison is the razor's edge of dehumanization. The Stanford prison experiment. Better focus on rehab and new life paths would save tax dollars lol. Otherwise they'll just keep circling the drain.
I am terribly horrified and worried about Franciscans today! They have become very liberal in morality and teachings! I studied with the Franciscans for close to 6 years but I could NOT profess as a Franciscan, because of their subtle changes in teaching on morality issues in the Catholic Church. St. Francis would be horrify today, with Franciscans so call teachings! God bless Fr. Casey, may God shed light of truth on him and all our Brother and sisters Franciscans! Thank you Trent for so lovingly, correcting poor Fr. Casey on his very confused teachings!
After seeing Fr. Casey rant about prisoners a famous piece by Richard Pryor came to mind. +++ “Arizona State Penitentiary; I was up there, and I looked at all the brothers and it made my heart ache. You know, seeing all these beautiful black men in the joint. These warriors should be out there helping the masses. I felt that way. I was real naive. Right? And the six weeks I was up there, I talked to the brothers. I talked to them, and THANK GOD WE HAVE PENITENTIARIES!” - Richard Pryor
Fr. Casey loves to pull the old "If you call yourself pro-life and don't support [[insert niche social justice cause]], can you truly call yourself pro-life/a Christian, hmm?" With that haughty, "serious business" voice. Where as when he approaches a controversial position where he has to condemn an action/belief that the left gets up in arms about, he uses a meek, little pee-pee voice (like he's talking to a Kindergartener) and tip-toes around condemning the act (especially abortion). I just really get the impression that Fr. Casey desperately wishes the Church would conform to being more in line with the political left. Fr. Casey's stance on prisons makes no sense when, apparently, he thinks prisons shouldn't be punishments at all. I agree that prisons need to change. NO inmate should be able to treat prison like a personal playground where they can get access to drugs, booze, and be able to force sex on another inmate. BUT that's a product of prisons being TOO COMFORTABLE, the opposite of what Fr. Casey is asking for. He says the food is too yucky and they have to (gasp) do work while being punished for crime?! I guess prisons need to be daycare with 3 five star meals a day. WTF? I do not get that. I don't think Jesus would want prisoners to be elevated above the common law abiding man and woman.
cant like this enough, I made many of these same points in my comment on his original video, but you have really done your research well to present a thoroughly supported accounting of doctrine here.
Thank you for making this video. I was in prison for 5 yrs prior to my conversion . Been in jail numerous times and it wasn't nearly as bad as he made it out to be. I was in max security down to low level prisons with work release. Wasn't in any way comparable to slavery. I get his point, but he missed the mark with that video. Mercy is for the contrite. And prison didn't convert me either. I converted 10 years after my release.
Thanks a lot for this video Trent! Watching Fr. Casey's video I was following what he was saying but from the start I couldn't articulate to myself what felt off to me hearing the things he was saying. Particularly the clips you highlighted!
What a ridiculous question: "Would you say that there is ever a justification for slavery." YES, the answer is YES. Unpaid, forced labor is justified as a penalty for crimes. Just like there is a justification for capturing people against their will (arrest) and what would otherwise be kidnapping (inprisonment). Even forcing people to pay child support is often against their will, and yet STILL justified. Being drafted is against your will and is risking your life, and it's STILL just. Fr. Casey and how he thinks, is what is wrong with the Church. His catechesis is absolutely terrible, and mostly consists of modernist "feelings". The Church (and the US constitution to it's credit) has never condemned involuntary work for crimes. It's actually very different than chattel slavery and has a long just tradition. Despite all that, we rarely force people to work for no pay in prison, only less pay. Frankly, some people shouldn't be paid as a penalty for their crimes and should earn the right to be paid again for their labors. BTW, the Lord said that we toil on this earth because of our sins. It's not supposed to be easy because it's partly a penance. He literally is subverting the Scriptures all the time. I hope he means well, but I do not trust him in any way as a teacher or with vulnerable minds. Stay away.
Also, we don't OWN prisoners and have never claimed to. What a horrifying distortion of the legal system, and an outrageous calumny of those who work in it. He owes law enforcement, corrections, judges, and legislators an apology. How dare he accuse them of engaging in chattel slavery.
Maybe fr. Casey should discuss his views with the family members of the murdered, victims of the sex trade or rape etc... . Criminals make a choice. Prison doesn't just happen to someone, much like hell, people choose to go there. It is society's duty before God to protect the innocent and punish evil.
I am a firm believer that Casey's channel needs to be eradicated from RUclips at this point. How is his order not stopping this foolish man from speaking?
I posit we are STILL slaves to the system. Noone can just live on their own means. We all must submit to others to enrich them, not ourselves. Maybe Fr Casey needs to spend time around criminals. He will see we need prisons.
It is so hard to talk about the nuance of slavery discussed in this video. People equate any kind of slavery with American slavery when the Bible explicitly spoke against that type of slavery. People only want to argue with their feelings and not with logic when it comes to slavery.
This is not a good argument against father Casey. The laws against abuse of slaves in the antebellum South often had little effect since it's not like slaves had much ability to testify on their own behalf or to leave their abuser's property to accuse him of a crime. Trent's point is completely different from yours, in that the system of the antebellum South was chattel slavery and was immoral but completely different than what we are discussing in the US prison system today.
Ask a victim of a brutal crime if their pie in the sky concern for prisoners changed. Been there. Your comments are realistic; Father Casey’s we’re unconvincing.
As much as I love Upon Friar Review (the channel Fr. Casey runs with a fellow Franciscan where they both react to and analyze media with religious themes), I have to admit that Fr. Casey has quite a few problematic videos on his main channel. Thank you to Trent for respectfully and charitably critiquing his hot takes.
I was left in my cell for 34 days straight after a cop assaulted me and falsely acused me of assaulting him. I got my food thrown into my cell. Jail is the most inhumane place i have ever experienced.
I'm sorry you experienced that, truly. I hope you realize that has nothing to do with how a properly run jail is conducted. Even so I assume you're not suggesting there shouldn't be jails, just no mistreatment no? And is your argument in defense of Fr caseys argument? Or against jails in general
@@JJ-ki6sv When the average treatment of a person in jail is this, and it often is; it becomes understandable why people become so opposed to the idea of jails in the first place.
@@marcovalentini863 where are you from? Have you ever visited a US jail? This is not the 'average' in literally any way. That is a very very unjust accusation to make without evidence. It is slandering the officers who try to do the right thing day in and day out.
Father Casey has a heart for justice n some fashion, but doesn't seem to be able to recognize it. He doesn't seem to know Church teaching as well as somebody in his position should. I don't think we need priests misleading people no matter their good intentions.
@@JamesIdentity what I was saying is we need both a compassionate heart as well as a logical mind in the church. I can understand the confusion about my original statement though.
I was briefly incarcerated for having been very stupid, and involved in an incident wherein someone was gravely injured. I did my time, though I assaulted no-one. The matter of my relationship to the State was my chief concern, after the safety of the injured offender (complicated, bad story). Though I made no move to harm anybody, I did something that, had I not, would have prevented a neighbour's face being blindly slashed. He might just as well have died, rather than merely wear a scar. At the end of the day, I belong absolutely to God. Whatsoever befalls me must do by His sanction. I'm grateful that every person involved in penalizing me for my youthful error did so with mind to prevent crime, rather than to add to it.
The thing that bothered me about Father Casey's video the most is that there was 100% concern for the prisoner, 0% concern for their victims. Also...his comment section was one lemming after another agreeing with him. Truly distrubing.
I always like Trent's rebuttals. I like good rebuttals and debates. I like discussion on the facts and I think both Trent and FR. Casey would agree. However, I don't like comments that insult FR. Casey just as I wouldn't like comments insulting Trent. I see where Trent is coming from. FR. Casey may have gone a little overboard (especially with the Hitler comment), but he wanted to bring attention to the conditions prisoners have to endure. I agree with most of what Trent said, and I think he and FR. Casey agree on more than they disagree. No one thinks prisoners should get an easy time or any kind of luxury, but decent meals (3 x a day that are not rotten) are not a luxury. The bottom line that they both agree on and need to be the focus is prison reform. Let's respect both of them and the work they both do to further the cause of Christ, and his love, justice, mercy and grace.
I completely agree that hurling insults at Fr. Casey (or anyone) when we disagree is uncalled for, uncharitable, and a road block to further dialogue. As I recall Fr. Casey cited the abuse thrown his way over his chosen video Trent rebutted as why he didn't want to engage Trent's critique.
No, this is false. Father Casey did not go overboard he stated false things were teachings of the faith. He also stated that things that are moral were un-Christian. Trent was not focusing on the parts that any person including non-christians agree on, namely that thing should be humane and clean. It is disingenuous to pretend that Trent's rebuttal and people's problem with fr Casey means they don't care about making sure people get three meals a day. The cause of Christ includes justice. Prisoners deserve the correction that they receive in corrections facilities. When done in dignity and truth, it is a grace. They're called penitentiaries because they are opportunities for penance. Father Casey insults those who are engaged in the criminal justice system, perhaps unintentionally, when he suggests that they are involved in immoral slavery. He lays unjust burdens on them when he says things are unchristian that are *explicitly* allowed by the church, and advocated in the scriptures. Lastly, he is a priest and should convey the faith accurately, not sow confusion and error. No parent could have his attitude regarding punishment. In justice and truth, neither could any government.
Thank you Trent for your clarification of the purpose for internment and educating Fr. Casey. Wonder what Fr. Casey thinks of allowing scores of people to cross our boarders and the offer them jobs with substandard wages on which they cannot survive unless they work long hours, live in substandard housing , etc. ?
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:03 🎙️ Trent Horn responds to Father Casey Cole's video on imprisoning people. 00:17 💡 Trent agrees with addressing issues in the prison system, but disagrees with Father Casey's claims. 01:12 💬 Trent agrees with aspects of Father Casey's original video, such as issues with incarceration and treatment of prisoners. 03:39 🧐 Trent addresses Father Casey's points on prison labor, arguing that it can have benefits, rehabilitate offenders, and serve societal needs. 06:25 ❌ Trent disagrees with Father Casey's blanket assertion that imprisonment and prison labor are contrary to human dignity. 10:46 📖 Trent explores biblical and historical perspectives on slavery and distinguishes forms of slavery. 13:15 💰 Trent argues that prison labor for inmates is not inherently evil and can have justifications, especially for paying back their debt to society. 16:01 ⚖️ Trent discusses the purpose of punishment, societal costs of crime, and the moral context of retribution and rehabilitation. 18:35 🚧 Trent explains the balance between punishment and rehabilitation and the concept of prisoners serving society through labor. 22:01 🙏 Trent emphasizes the importance of compassion for prisoners and the need to help them change, while acknowledging the role of just punishment. 25:30 🤝 Trent invites dialogue and concludes by promoting care for prisoners, while maintaining the principles of justice and dignity. Made with HARPA AI
I would love to know what in the world Fr. Casey thinks would be the ideal way society should deal with criminals? It seems he wants prison to be a resting place with free room, board, and food that is somewhere they choose to be and enjoy living in?
Thank you Trent for another thoughtful video showing we can respectfully disagree with our spiritual leaders on issues outside of ex cathedra Fr Casey’s heart is in the right place albeit he is very naive and shows why sometimes you should stay in your own lane. Anyone who has ever been to prison or has family in prison knows that jobs can be a great outlet to pass the time, make money or get privileges. In fact certain jobs have waiting lists. The human mind and body needs to be worked and cultivated less it waste away and lose it vitality Where I think Casey can focus is efforts is on real human right violations that occur in prison. Any person serving their time in a federal or private institution should not have to fear for their physical safety on a 24 safety. People are routinely sexually assaulted, extorted and manipulated all under “guard supervision”. also the cost commissary is astronomical and orders of magnitude higher than in the real world. there is no reason why you shouldn’t work a full day and make two dollars a day. Can’t even buy a honey bun with that. Not all prisoners are evil people and unfortunately people make mistakes and deserve second chances AFTER they serve their punishment.
I used to watch Fr Casey's videos but stopped when he seemed to veer from real Catholic social teaching around charity and the poor to a quasi-Marxist social teaching. I have no problem with radical holiness or radical actions and sacrifice related to the poor, but when a preacher veers too far from what the Catechism teaches, I stop listening. I used to subscribe to his videos and I now have him muted so I haven't seen his content in years. Based on my previous consumption of his content, his stances on jail and prisoners don't surprise me. I believe that he should read the Catechism more in search of timeless truths and to stop looking for what is trendy in the modern age. Modern Catholics don't need his flawed synthesis from modernism to Catholicism, real Catholicism is more than enough.
Honestly, while I like "upon friar reviews", I kinda dislike many takes that Fr. Casey has... I remember him talking about, idk, socialism or communism in one video, how "that system isn't bad" or something... And I am from Poland, and while i was born around 7 years after the fall of USSR, in 1998, I know many things from my parents, grandparents, members of my family, and also from the history lessons... And when i heard from Fr. Casey that "communism/socialism may not be that bad of a system" i immediately remember Father Popieluszko, and how he was K**led by communists... I might not even go that far, i have example in family, how socialism/communism tried to make young people have negative feelings about church... For example my now 90 years old Grandfather was a member of "Service to Poland" - and he told me, about how once they shouted to their commanders that "we want to go to the church", So they made them walk to a church, through a hard terrain, just to make them never say that again (oh, and it was summer, so it was very hot) - next time when commanders asked, who wants to go to church now, nobody answered... They also, it seems, were forced to do some sort of provocations/good PR for communist regime, for example, they got some bread with sausage in front of church, from their commanders, who said "eat!" They had to do this, so the regime would say "see, we, the ruling power, give our people food, and church gives nothing" or other nonsense like that. So in that case, if Fr. Casey said that (and i remember he said something like that, around 1-2 years ago, maybe..)...Then he is very, very wrong, to put it lightly.
Yes.I always wonder about Fr.Casey.it seems to ke he is trying to please people rather than preaching the Truth 9f our Carholic Faith.i wonder if his Superiors are aware of this.
I believe the difference between a human jail and Hell is that those in Hell stubbornly remain their by their own will, whereas a prisoner is kept in jail by force even if they wish to leave. I believe comparing Hell to prison is misleading, as it implies that God is forcing sinners to be there against their will. But the Catechism says this: "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell.'" It says later: "The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs." Hell's greatest suffering is not something imposed by God, it is the natural consequence of eternally rejecting him. If we are speaking in metaphors we may indeed call this a prison of their own making, but if we are speaking literally then we must remember the distinctions between a literal prison and Hell. I think the difference is best summed up thusly: "You can escape a prison without repenting. You cannot do the same with Hell."
Read 13th amendment. It does leave a loophole for slavery. I think it should be changed. A fair wage, for prisoners, especially if you're supposed to give them the opportunity to make restitution would be moral and just. The State and/or private corporations should not be able to take advantage of prisoners for their own monetary or professional gain. The gain is in reform and restitution. Taking advantage of them would go against their dignity.
It is not a loophole given that it is so explicit about it. I personally think not but would find it confusing where to apply the punishment since the U.S. has no galleys.
This is a case of somebody coming in to solve a problem by creating a worse problem. People's obsession with hourly wage rates can really be harmful. Simply having something useful to do (outside, even) and the ability to interact with the world outside the prison is essentially a reward for prisoners otherwise confined to an empty cell with nothing but their own thoughts. Let alone actually having the opportunity to learn something with market value they can use after prison. These are cases where prisoners are signing up to work a job. If you are volunteering to do a job, are you being exploited? Isn't voluntary employment the opposite of slavery?
@@misterkittyandfriends1441 voluntary work is absolutely moral. It's them being taken advantage of for monetary gain that I disagree with. Their labor does have a value and that value should go towards restitution and for their care plus nothing more in my view.
@@ahoblit Given the costs of prison facilities, if a prisoner was charged for their "stay" but worked full time and were given something close to a market wage at picking up trash, do you imagine they would leave with money or a bill? Even discounting their need to repay society for their crime, I imagine they would owe. It costs $75k to lock a person up for a year in California. Most street sweepers are not making more than $75k a year. It would be sort of silly if prison were a secure government food and housing program where prisoners received market pay, plus paid transportation, and other benefits. So they get paid less because many orgs don't want to hire criminals due to the risk, and they get garnished to pay for the prison services they are utilizing. I can't think of any metric for "fair" for voluntary employment in a situation where you are guaranteed to have all basic needs supplied. If it is subjective and voluntary, then why don't the parties involved in the agreement determine what is acceptable?
Trent, what is your take on what Matt Walsh and Michael Knowles have been saying about the need for more prisons and more criminals in prison? And Michael Knowles take on the way the new president of El Salvador had been treating the members of MS-13 in his prisons?
My son did 2 years in prison for a drug related crime. During that time, he finished his online degree, read 50 Catholic books which he requested and helped others to study for their GED. Do I think that the cost of perhaps paying for treatment would be cheaper on the system, yes. HOWEVER, he had received treatment before and, I believe this was God's next step. My son, in the prison system saw acts of kindness that helped him to see that he had much in his life to be grateful for. Would a father that hadn't abandoned him at an early age have been better? Yes, but that didn't happen and God used prison to make him see that he had to grow up. He now has been clean for 12 years and is raising his son Catholic - and raising him to be a man without the ungratefulness that he had. My son never said that he didn't deserve prison.
Great story, God bless... 👍👍
@@TF80s
Thank you! He already has. My grandson (this son's little boy) , age 10, just requested a Douay Rheims Bible the last time I was there. He heard that it was the best. He is an altar boy and has his future narrowed down to either a lawyer or a Priest.
What prison did he go to? What state? Which prison provides such services? I almost find it hard to believe this was in the US
@@serehero4722
It was the federal prison system. They did not pay for his online college. He studied and mailed in his work. He was able to do his last 6 months in a half-way house in our town. They did also have a federal email system and could make phone calls. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that prison is the perfect solution for non violent crimes. What I am saying is that God was able to use it. I believe in showing EVERYONE respect. I believe that my son carried forward as he owned his sins and took accountability.
How apt it is for such a beautiful story of conversion and growth to happen to the son of someone with the same blessed name as St. Monica. May she and her son, St. Augustine, keep praying for you and for your family!
Fr. Casey is confused. Slavery is not the same as incarceration. Slaves are not paying for crimes they committed, prisoners are. Prisoners have been found guilty of some action that damages society, it's a different argument as to whether that finding is just or not. Slavery has similarities to imprisonment in the lack of freedom and forced behavior, but is fundamentally different. A priest who does not see that needs to examine basic definitions before taking to the airways. God bless you Trent and God bless Fr. Casey.
Great overall summary of what I think Trent is getting at in not so many words 👍
I totally agree. And I believe Father Casey may be still too young to understand that the "the devil is in the details" [so to speak]. Even if one looks similar to the other, they are factually not the same. However, in his defense, I think that he was not really trying to compare innocent people with the prisoners per se, but that we should not rejoice in their suffering, nor make them do stuff that goes beyond what is just. Afterall: «God doesn't desire the death of a sinner, but that he would return from his evil way, and he will live.»
If we take a deep breath and try to analyze why Father Casey made the comments he did, I think it becomes more clear that was his actual intention... and he may be still too young as I said, but he is not entirely wrong. He only needs more discernment and fortitude to make the message clear.
@@GranMaese Fr. Casey's intentions are not being analyzed; his statements are being analyzed. And his statements are wrong.
This is not true in all cases. Indentured servitude, such as that experienced by prisoners in early Australia was slavery in which the slave (entrusted to a slave owner) worked their way out of slavery into freedom. It was a contractual arrangement that provided the slave owner with free labour and the slave with a means to avoid imprisonment (which at the time was overcrowded and you'd likely end up dead from disease). Modern China uses a form of this but their prisoners are slave labour and their labour is valueless (i.e. doesn't reduce their sentence or produce personal income). Most labour that is unpaid is technically slavery and modern slavery is a persistent problem. The two areas are pretty grey, and you can see how one can slip into another. Fr. Casey is a bit over-emotional but he does it to drive home a point that's usually less explored, and you have to take it with some healthy scepticism.
@@GranMaese I agree with you. The prison system needs an overhaul. As Americans it’s commonplace to hear people joke about the fact that people get r@ped in prison all the time! You’re paying for a crime behind bars, not to be violated and have part of your dignity stolen from you.
There are plenty of stories where people get locked up and they’re later released because they were found innocent. Yet, while they were in jail they were violated… I get no system is perfect, but I think Fr. Casey and many friars seems to have this sense that all human lives deserve a certain amount of dignity. I’m not saying to let people who are dangerous roam free in society, but a lot of the things that occur are messed up. I read a memoir called “Fish” and I found it really disturbing what goes on in the prison.
As someone who has worked for 30 years in a correctional system and whose job every day is to insure all those in our custody have an opportunity for education, training, treatment for substance use and mental health needs, THANK YOU for this response. I think Fr. Casey has probably been listening to an advocacy group position rather than visiting prisons, seeing the imprisoned and talking to them, and talking to the wardens and staff. I have many stories of the formerly incarcerated and their families who thank me and those who work with me for saving their lives. Thank you for the quote from JP II the Great as well. I knew the quote but couldn’t remember who said it!
And, as I'm sure you know, prison advocacy groups are full of statements from inmates. Many of Whom anyone in corrections can tell you will say absolutely anything to get some benefit. They are master manipulators and liars and are very good at getting gullible bleeding hearts to side with them.
Thanks for your service-I’ve been in the field 15 years and Fr. Casey got many things wrong in his video. I hope he can become more educated and help with an alternative system--
Do you work in a private prison?
what about all of the things we see, like crimes, murders, beatings, gangs, racism, loan sharking, rape, etc.? do these things not actually happen in jails and prisons?
This conversation does make me wonder what Father Casey thinks the Purgatory experience is like.
Working while in jail is actually keeping the inmates busy so they don't get bored or into trouble. It also acts as a repayment to society for the crimes they commit. Even learning a trade.
I follow Fr. Casey because I don't like echo-chambers, but thank God we have Trent doing fleshed-out critiques.
Meh if you interact with any media in the mainstream culture at all you’re outside of the conservative Catholic echo chamber.
He’s on point I think 80 percent of the time, but some of his ideas I don’t agree with
Father Casey is a poor systematic thinker. Frankly, if you wanted a secularist modernist perspective, there are numerous people outside of the church who make better arguments. The problem with Father Casey is when he misrepresents the teachings of the Church and lays undue burden on the people. He has particular responsibilities as a priest not to do that.
I unsubscribed from fr casey.. He's got a dangerous slope on theology ..
Same.
As a former law enforcement officer, I must agree with you, Mr. Horn, on your treatment of this issue. Yes, there are abusive prison wardens whose officers would follow suit with their abuses of prisoners; however, I know a number of prisons and jails that treat prisoners justly and treat them with dignity. You have to remember, most prioners, although not all, are rightly accused and sentenced subsequent to trial. Many are hardened and repeat offenders. Making them work for some of their personal amenities, e.g., cigarettes, shave cream, etc, is not wrong. Likewise, contributing to work for the betterment of their immediate community makes for a healthier perspective on life outside prison. In fact, in many cases, it is safer and healthier inside the prison walls than the environment from whence they came.
I would also say that most are treated very humanely and respectfully. Three squares a day, television, outdoor activities, showers, clean bedding, medical care, etc. I believe Fr. Casey is coming from a place of ignorance about life inside prison. Yes, there can be extremes on punishment, i.e. solitary confinement, but those are usually qualified by prisoner behavior and the safety of other inmates.
Good commentary. Thank you.
Thank you too Sir. God almighty bless you
Once again, Trent Horn gets it right!
Time to drop the SJ, though.
@@bornbranded29 You want me to break a vow I made on my knees in front of the Blessed Sacrament? That seems like awful advice...
@@thecalderasiblings7198 Define "doing gloriously" - Numbers? Institutions? Stand outs and saints? You should check out Jesuit High School in New Orleans!
Apparently, disagreeing with Fr. Casey always gets you in the right!😅
Let's pray for him!
Agreed, I expected to disagree with him on this, but when I listened to it, I couldn't.
As a Retired prison worker , thank you, trained inmates in the trades. All volunteered to work and got paid.$1.50 a day. Towards the end of my career, it is said to have cost $50,000 a year for each inmate to provide three meals, a day, a place to sleep, and to maintain the buildings. I was making $42000 a year.
Congratulations on your retirement, and thank you for your service! I've heard it is very hard. Much respect.
And do you think that $1.50 prevented violence? Was the inmate getting paid $1.50 per day worth it so you can go home safely to your family after your day working at the prison?
I ask because Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Texas do not pay there inmates anything, $0, and those prison systems have a much higher rate of violence among inmate and staff alike.
Thank you for your work in the prisons, that is a hard profession, I mean that sincerely. God bless you brother.
@@Hope785 yes
@@Hope785 I'm butting in, but generally, treating prisoners like real people (not only paying for their labour) and actually giving them a chance to reform and reintegrate gives much better results than just throwing them in a cell expecting them to do better next time in society, after some 10 years of being forgotten and alienated in prison.
@Iacobus I totally agree with you. Treating incarcerated individuals with the dignity they deserve does help lower recidivism rates. The majority of those incarcerated come from broken homes and they were treated like dirt for the majority of their lives. Perhaps if they were treated well for once, it would actually help them on the inside and the outside. Iacobus, thank you for your comment. May God bless you and your family.
That's actually pretty slimy, what Father Casey was doing, in getting people emotionally repulsed by talking about slavery and then bringing up prison to try and get people emotionally repulsed by it, too. There are several very important differences between prison incarceration and chattel slavery.
Fr. Casey has a very pleasant and wholesome-looking face. It makes you want to see him as a nice guy who perhaps is just too pollyanna and naive to deal with the more gritty parts of social teaching.
What you suggest is more manipulative and subversive. I want to give the benefit of charity to Fr. Casey but we are also told to be as wise as serpents. It may be all very calculated.
Very important similarities too.
@@kevinkelly2162 Not really. It's the differences that matter, not the similarities. In chattel slavery, you are kidnapping an innocent person and forcing him into labor. With prison incarceration, the person *deserves* the punishment he gets *and* should be taken off the streets because he's a danger to society at large.
@@hellopaule Sure, it's admirable to give him the benefit of the doubt. But he's pontificating on a matter of morality *and* he obviously desires a public platform because he is using it to push his ideas. Nothing wrong with that, per se, but he should know better. Especially as I'm sure he's been through seminary, being a priest. But I won't begrudge anyone who wishes to give him the benefit of the doubt.
@@clintonwilcox4690 Nobody in their right mind would claim the American justice system metes out equal justice to all regardless of race creed or financial situation. I hope you get what you deserve.
"Why Fr. Casey is Wrong about X" should be a recurring series.
Yes!
You could sum it up with I think the root cause.
Fr. Casey has often made me worry about the formation of our young priests.
I like Upon Friar Review. Now, I know why people tend to dislike Father Casey in his own videos.
Fr. Casey is wrong about a lot of things
Amen to that! the fact he has a large following is VERY disturbing
I've noticed
And he has a super cocky attitude that is an abuse of his role as a priest.
Well, at least we can say Franciscan friar Casey was never accused of being a Dominican.
....or indeed a Catholic
I dare Fr. Casey to walk up to a criminal's victim and and explain that it is just that they will continue to be victimized every spring so the criminal can sit in comfort while they themselves suffer to provide for him.
THANK YOU!! Justice has been flipped on it’s head. Criminals have all the rights and sympathies and victims get left behind.
He wouldn’t, we know that, at least we hope it. It seems he lives in an ivory tower. I pray God humbles him with some traumatic event, like he did for me, and that he live through it and repent and gets to heaven. Although, I was many worlds apart from Casey even then, opposite of the sin spectrum you could say, but it was still from intellectual pride.
Oh boy, I remember how Fr. Casey responded to your last criticism... hopefully he has grown since then.
I vaguely remember. Was it the one where Father Casey said we don’t know historically what happened in the gospels? If so, I never saw Casey’s response. You have a link?
@@jeremysmith7176 Thanks. I used to subscribe to Father Casey’s channel but he started saying enough off the wall stuff to where he became unreliable as a pseudo pastoral advisor.
@@BigPhilly15 Yes, I used to subscribe too. When he got all click-baitey and controversial, I unsubscribed. I think there was one video he did where he tried to get cute on the abortion debate and had to make a video trying to explain himself (if memory serves me). I will pray that the spirit of the Zeitgeist will leave these young priests. That they follow the Catechism, the Bible, and the Traditions of the Church - and reject the Zeitgeist as it only leads to error and confusion.
@@jamchiell Amen. I recall he made a divisive video around the time of the BLM riots. I’ll pray for Father Casey and all priests.
@@BigPhilly15 feel free to give this Jesuit right here a try! Hahaha
There's an aspect to Fr Casey's video (which I watched all the way through) that rubs me the wrong way, and I see it in similar kinds of arguments (often, if I may be honest, with the USCCB when they criticize immigration laws). Fr Casey prefaces his video by saying something along the lines of "of course, some people do need to be locked away for the safety of others", almost as a way to preemptively shield himself from accusations of being too far left. The thing is, though, is that you can put that kind of statement, no matter how extreme it is, in order to make it look like a sensible, moderate position. "Of course, countries have a right to enforce their borders, but turning any migrant away who tries to cross the U.S/Mexico border is inhumane and against Church social teaching." When have we heard something like that before?
I hope what I'm getting at makes sense to people. When applying Church social teaching to stuff like this (the prison system, immigration, etc), I only ever see criticism of when it is unjustly done (and primarily when it is too strict), and no celebration of when it is justly performed, nor criticism of when it is unjustly done out of neglect. It gives off the idea that the Church is against these institutions entirely, which I know is not true.
Father Casey is a pope Frank wannabe
And he doesn't understand church teaching on punishment. The govenment doesn't just lock people away for safety, but to do justice for the crimes they committed
Totally agree with you. Fr Casey very much seems to lead more to confusion than anything else.
That was very well put. They have little of the clarity of an encyclical like evangelium vitae. They don't appear to even be careful about their presentation. Their haracterizations of these difficult topics at time seems to border on reputation destruction or is at least deeply unfair.
HEY, you guys need to have a dialogue.
Fr Casey might have extended explanations.
.
I followed Casey from the time of his novice days until after his ordination. I'm a revert to the Faith. I left because nobody needs the Church if Casey's teaching is right. It's what I grew up with in the 1970s. By the grace of God, listening to one lecture by Father Chad Ripperger on Confession (uploaded on Sensus Fidelium), the scales dropped from my eyes, and I suddenly saw the truth of the Catholic Faith. That's why I listen to Trent Horn and others who teach it straight.
P.S. As always, 3 Aves for the teacher here - Trent. And 3 for Father Casey.
Bingo. What you describe is relativism at its finest. I was guilty myself in the past. We must fight to not make up our own rules.
I agree that Casey on two occasions has made some comments which is not to my liking (this is one). But I think we owe him charity and goodwill - he is usually correct and gives useful advice. Also, he has laid down his life in service of the Church. I think therefore we owe him some respect.
Ripperger is just as extreme as Casey, just in another direction. His condemnation of the Mass as well as his claims that God hates anyone who ever feels fear are pure heresy.
@@kell_checks_in i listen to Ripperger a lot. Where exactly does he say condemn the mass or claim "that God hates anyone who ever feels fear"?
Bearing false witness is a sin.
@@kell_checks_in Yeah you're gonna need to cite those claims.
My husband is in the Military. In a post by our house, there is a low security prison camp. The offenders there split wood, stack wood, do all kinds of lawn/outdoor maintenance. Some of them do janitorial work inside some of the buildings on post. Most of the guys that my husband has talked to, in this program, like the work and like to be busy. They aren’t supposed to give the offenders anything, but they often times get tobacco and other things.
Where I’m going with this is that some of the problems in the prison systems are caused by violent inmates. I’m not sure how we can fix that. You know I don’t want anyone in person to not have what they need, but how do we protect them from other members of the prison population that do cause problems?
some of the problems in the prison systems are caused by violent inmates. I’m not sure how we can fix that Its called maximum security 24 7 lock down
Fr. Casey just has a liberal worldview which is why he gets every social issue completely backwards. He seems to be a nice dude but liberalism is literally making it incapable for him to call a spade a spade. He so often shows more sympathy for the victimizers than the victims. He needs to just dump the liberal worldview completely because it perverts everything. We are surprised when he comes to the wrong conclusion but he is literally just following the liberal way of reasoning cut that tree down and if he roots his way of looking at social issues from a more conservative and say Catholic perspective he will have a more true worldview than the one he currently holds.
I couldn’t agree more. He seems like a nice kid, loves God, wants to do good in the world. However, and I think ministering on a college campus doesn’t help, he’s very far left. I went through a lefty phase in my 20s but grew out of it. Hopefully he does the same. One of the beauties of our Faith is we don’t have to rely on political men to know what’s right, we have Jesus.
@@BigPhilly15 Dude if you think Fathe Casey is "very far left" that means you've never met an actual leftist.
I have the same impression. I was shocked about his fierce defense of Pope Francis, overlooking Pachamamas and obvious heresies. One more clergyman in my prayers.
I watched Fr. Casey's full video. I think comparing imprisonment as justice due with slavery is off the mark. Slaves are exploited people who are denied their basic dignity and abused simply because they are powerless (either by criminals or inhumane governments), while imprisonment is a form of justice. People are imprisoned, denied a certain degree of freedom, because they have abused their freedom or have taken away the freedom or/and the dignity of others. If prisons are like hotel rooms where people enjoy themselves and get paid for work, you can imagine whether crimes will go down or up.
I believe it's Sweden that has very "comfy" prisons, and yet their rehab rates are still incredibly high. The cells aren't cold and hard, they're like smaller basic appartments.
Actually yes, you can imagine it. Who do you think gets reintegrated more into society, people basically tortured for years suffering inhumane conditions or those that are shown compassion and dignity? Do you think Jesus, who taught to turn the other cheek, who taught to respond to injustice not with another injustice perpetuating the circle of evil but with love and forgiveness would be for hard imprisonment and forced unpaid labour? Find me where Jesus taught that sin or violence should be responded to with a hard physically punishing prison sentence. I can find you 50 times where he says quite the opposite. Also if you did actually watch the video then you should know that he didn’t expect prisons to have amenities like hotels. He is particularly criticizing hard prisons that strip prisoners of every dignity every human should have.
What part of “Love your neighbor like yourself” is compatible with hard punishing prison? If found guilty of a crime would you want to live like that, is that something you would wish for your son or father? Or would you rather stay in a place where the goal isn’t to make you suffer but to show what you did wrong and teach you how to get back into society if possible? I highly doubt that you would be in favor of unpaid physical strenuous labor often in precarious working conditions if it were you or a close relative that had to do it.
Thank you for keeping loud Catholics on RUclips in check!
Liberal Catholic like fake prez Joe Budden aren't Catholic
What do you mean by that? I don't know if you realize Trent is Catholic himself?
@@GranMaese I don't understand how you are interpreting my comment. Fr. Casey has a great following, and he needs to be corrected when he states something of this magnitude that is not in line with Catholic teaching.
I just wonder what Fr Casey’s solution is. The existence of the modern prison system is part of the reason why we no longer need to use the death penalty. So if we say that imprisonment is also wrong, then what should we do with dangerous criminals?
He obviously has no regard for justice.
I’ve been at this level of absurd leftism before, and they genuinely think crime will stop if we just remove poverty and mental health issues. A Catholic priest should know better, so maybe he thinks we should put them in treatment facilities or something.
Criminal justice reform, probably. Which has worked so well in the cities.
I would dispute the claim about the Death Penalty.
Send them to Casey’s place lol
Not to gang up on Fr. Casey, but on occasion, he makes a statement on something that makes me want to pull out my hair and throw a ham and swiss sandwich into the ocean -- literally speaking.
My grandma used to paraphrase Ecclesiastes 11:1 as "cast your bread upon the waters and it will come back sandwiches"🍞 🍔
Father Casey is such a nice guy and really seems earnest. However, he often gives me a young Father James Martin vibe.
ouch. That's a little extreme. He seems pretty orthodox to me.
Fr Casey is probably reading your comment. Would you say such a comment to his face? Would he find the characterisation true or take it as a compliment? Just questions as food for thought.
I would definitely say it to his face but I don’t know his feelings about Father Martin, so can’t predict his reaction.
I'd say that's more true of Dan Horan OFM
@@jamchiell guess who studied and interviewed Dan Horan.
Father Casey is very much a troubling figure with how he bends truth. Not as bad as a Father James Martin, but many of the same principles exist between the two, as well as the confusion they lead others to.
There’s no way to compare these two priests. Fr. Casey is young and naive while Fr. Martin is old and bitter.
You nailed it I couldn't have said it better ☺️
@@johnflorio3576 same thing ....just age difference 😂
TheJmlew : you nailed it ....something is very wrong with that young man
@@johnflorio3576 I’d say that they are similar in that they lead the Church more to confusion than anything else.
It’s like a full time job to always correct Fr. Casey & Fr. Martin with all their liberal nonsense they try to mislead the faithful with. Thank you so much Trent, you are truly doing God’s work, may God continue to bless you & your work!
I’m glad somebody said it…
Since gods do not exist, you can say whatever you want to and say god said it. god told me to tell you that.
@@itoibo4208Edge lord
Fr. Casey is a child of the Revolution. Pray for his conversion.✝️
So true
What conversion?
For each Fr Gregory Pine we have a Fr Casey Cole (and the ratio is probably worse).
I watch neither of them 🗑️
@@ordinary_deepfake I didn't asked. 🥱
Unfortunately true, or maybe more like 1:3 or 4
@@ordinary_deepfake y
Prisons being "first and foremost about retribution and punishment" is a COMPLEMENT. Catechism 2266 literally requires that that is the primary reason for punishment of criminals "to redress the disorder caused by the offense." Trent did a great job with this. As someone who has had the at times great displeasure of being involved in criminal justice, I can tell you this is not fun, we don't do it in anger or for our self satisfaction. We do it because it is just, and to protect society, and hopefully, God willing, if the prisoner repents, do our small part in helping God reform the prisoner.
You can make a whole other channel dedicated to rebutting Fr Casey Cole's claims. As I always say, he is a great teacher of our Catechism, but is completely ignorant when it comes to social, economic, or political topics, aka he's woke.
This. ☝️
Not even the Catechism I would say, he just say stuff completly in opposition to the Magisterium.
He's wrong about the death penalty
Yeah. Absolutely right. He’s too woke.
He can't be a great teacher of the catechism, this whole video is about how he doesn't understand catechism 2266. 2266 is directly from evangelium vitae which Trent quotes in this
Fr Casey's problems are americanised problems not real problems.
As always you’re a treasure in this space, Trent. Thank you
This apologist knows a lot more than that Franciscan priest
Yes
Horn is a smart cookie and a devout Catholic. What an amazing man.
There’s a lot of crazy Franciscans out there which surprised me to learn
He's actually pretty good but every now and then I strongly disagree. Trent on the other hand is always awesome 👌
There seems to be an epidemic of poorly catechized priests these days.
Fr. Casey strikes me as much more of a political activist than a devotee of the historical catholic church.
Great video, Mr Trent! God bless you and your family!
I stopped watching him a loooong time ago. He is the development of the modern formation of our current seminaries.
Trent is the best for clearly explaining difficult topics and getting into the different layers and meanings and clarifying them. Thank you Trent.
I think it is worth pointing out that a lot of prisoners incarcerated for possession of an illegal substance are usually plea deals taken by the accused. Often, they are drug dealers themselves carrying large amounts of illegal drugs.
Yep. However when you make this argument with the anti-jail, usually pro-marijuana crowd, they just shrug it off and say that they should be released anyway, and that if it leads to an enormous increase in crime and cost of investigations, so be it.
Yes, and besides drug dealing, many of those who get these plea deals also had violent crimes attached to to as well that got dropped in the deal. When you’re looking at whether or not someone’s sentencing is fair, you have to find the full context of what they actually did, not just the plea deal they got
But the number of people who are actually imprisoned for possession when the amount is small is extremely miniscule: there are people imprisoned whose charges are that of minor possession, but the vast majority of those cases were people who were initially charged with much stronger crimes (like possession with intent) and their charges were reduced for their plea deals, or something similar.
Every Christian Channel's Worst Nightmare:
Trent Horn makes a video about your video.
Prison can be slavery and if it was, would that not be a just punishment for crimes?
Deeper problem is what people get imprisoned for.
I remember a comment from Peterson, something along these lines: prison also seek justice to been done so that victims would not “need” to revenge. So in a way, it protect the offender.
Excellent, sir Trent. I do pray that your offer for future dialogue be accepted so that these divisive issues can be brought to light.
Work has ALWAYS been part of our mission as human beings, lending itself to our own dignity before God. We are made for works, even before The Fall, and as Ephesians 2:10 clearly states. Without works, we aren't human. We ALL must work according to our capacity. And how much more blessed is it to use this temporal time to work our our salvation with the help of His grace, especially if we've committed great sin? I pray God's great mercy on these prisoners; that their works be redemptive for salvation, bringing for fruit worthy of repentance in this life and the next.
Lord have mercy.
Christ have mercy.
🌹🙏
This is about free labour for big companies, not about paying back to society.
A big problem with Father Casey’s argument is his characterisation of slavery, which Trent gets into. It’s very sensationalistic. There are two kinds of slavery, chattel and servile. What he has described is, in fact, chattel, or the ownership of a human being, usually through abducting them, subjugating them and their families, to slavery and dehumanisation-which is wrong. Servile slavery is based on debt and payment. A servant works to pay off some debt (whether social, private, or otherwise) *OR* is payed through other means than wages. A servant is a worker, with rights, and perhaps even freedoms depending on his station and circumstances, but a chattel slave has been reduced to the level of beasts, like what we saw with American slavery, the slavery of the Hebrews, and so on.
Father Casey is a good human being. I think he would largely agree with many of the points that Trent makes in this video. I think Father Casey just wrote a script that removed too much of the nuance from this issue. Fact: the prison system in the USA is corrupt and not functioning according to the desires of the majority of voters and is contrary to God's will. Also fact: We need to incarcerate criminals and make them work to support the portions of law enforcement and the justice system that are required because of their criminal behavior.
Father Casey is certainly earnest. However in this he is simply wrong, not missing nuance. He is just wrong that we have to pay prisoners. He is wrong that if we do pay them we can't take money from them for restitution and essentially taxes for their costs. And he is wrong that our prison system is structured as if we owned the prisoners. (With exception of perhaps some of the for-profit prisons). These errors of his are separate from the question of whether he is right that our system needs both reform and constant vigilance. But this has always been true about every area of government Force, and even every area of government action
My objection was his suggestion that retribution is the same as revenge and therefore isn’t Christian. In his view the only reason to lock someone up is to protect society from a dangerous individual. But that’s not the only reason or even the main reason for incarceration. Taking away liberty is, yes, punishment, which is necessary for any functioning system of justice.
5 years ago: The US institutes prison reform and criminal justice reform. Along the lines of what Fr. Casey wants.
Today: criminals are more emboldened than ever. every type of crime is up. Criminals don’t see prison as punishment anymore because they won’t serve time. Some cities it is expected that you will get robbed or assaulted and law is not enforced because the criminals run the city.
At the same time Fr. Casey: we need a lot more of what we have been doing because it’s been working really well over the past 5 years. For the criminals and normal decent productive members of society.
Fr. Casey with the 100% wrong take once again.
Do you have any good sources to back up your claims that every type of crime is up, and that criminal justice reforms are to blame?
@@jonpaulpepen9470 ummm my common sense and my rational faculties. Along with you know looking at nation wide crime statistics. It’s not that difficult bud you don’t need a 3 time peer reviewed study to say that 2+2 equals 4 and that a man is not a women let’s keep up here.
@@shane9095 lol I had a feeling that was the case. The problem is that “common sense” works great getting you through everyday life but anything more complex than that, well that’s why God gave us an intellect.
Your original response is a poster child of some recent research from Pew showing that while rates most types of crime in the US have dropped 40-80% over the last 50 years, over 70% of American adults have the perception that crime has dramatically risen (it has a little bit post pandemic, but nothing even remotely close to the rates we saw even 15 years ago). I don’t necessarily think everything we’ve been doing during the last 30 years are ideal, but to say that it’s 100% wrong just doesn’t seem well supported based on any data I’ve seen. But I’m not married to this assessment and I’m always happy to change my mind when presented with new information.
As to whether Fr Casey is 100% wrong, well even Trent highlighted some important ideas he was spot on for, and I agreed with just about everything Trent said in this video.
@@jonpaulpepen9470 Dude you conceded the point I’m literally saying that crime is going up post jail reform policies lol.
We implemented these policies 5 years ago it is around 2018/2019 and what do you know almost immediately crime rates go up. And you cite this pew study as a rebuke to my point lol.
Also you are mistaken because you are taking the statistics provided at face value. Most crimes especially in more liberal cities/ states are just not investigated, or they are just not even considered crimes anymore. Think of Californias law that people can steal up to $995 of merchandise before they will be arrested and charged and say that hasn’t increased shoplifting lol.
Just think of this hypothetical situation. Lets just say hypothetically marijuana arrests drastically go down in one year so a rational person may assume maybe that means marijuana is being used less by the general population but let’s say you fail to mention to that person that marijuana was legalized at the beginning of that year. So people are still doing the same thing if not more than before they just aren’t being arrested for it so it doesn’t show up in the stats. Think about all the DA’s who have said not to investigate certain crimes or crimes that are no longer considered crimes anymore or serious crimes that are plead down to less serious crimes. Again you are just lying with statistics and you can cite Pew to try and tell everyone how what they are seeing with their own two eyes is wrong but I’m not gonna believe it because it just is not correct. It’s not correct from a common sense perspective, from a rational perspective, and if you got the unaltered stats they would support the reality I am talking about and that everyone else is living in. Look at a city like San Francisco or New York and tell me it is just as safe and their is less crime than 10 years ago.
I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater on this issue. Sweden has arguably "comfy" prisons and yet their rehab rate is still incredibly high, whereas America is the poster child for reoffenders.
Criminals should NOT be allowed to keep committing crimes, for the common folk's sake, but once imprisoned prisoners still need to be treated like people. The biggest issue with prison is the razor's edge of dehumanization. The Stanford prison experiment.
Better focus on rehab and new life paths would save tax dollars lol. Otherwise they'll just keep circling the drain.
I can't think of many slaves who had 3 meals a day, heating, recreation, medical care, option for education, and a bed to sleep in.
I am terribly horrified and worried about Franciscans today! They have become very liberal in morality and teachings! I studied with the Franciscans for close to 6 years but I could NOT profess as a Franciscan, because of their subtle changes in teaching on morality issues in the Catholic Church. St. Francis would be horrify today, with Franciscans so call teachings! God bless Fr. Casey, may God shed light of truth on him and all our Brother and sisters Franciscans! Thank you Trent for so lovingly, correcting poor Fr. Casey on his very confused teachings!
After seeing Fr. Casey rant about prisoners a famous piece by Richard Pryor came to mind.
+++
“Arizona State Penitentiary; I was up there, and I looked at all the brothers and it made my heart ache. You know, seeing all these beautiful black men in the joint. These warriors should be out there helping the masses. I felt that way. I was real naive. Right? And the six weeks I was up there, I talked to the brothers. I talked to them,
and THANK GOD WE HAVE PENITENTIARIES!”
- Richard Pryor
Fr. Casey loves to pull the old "If you call yourself pro-life and don't support [[insert niche social justice cause]], can you truly call yourself pro-life/a Christian, hmm?" With that haughty, "serious business" voice. Where as when he approaches a controversial position where he has to condemn an action/belief that the left gets up in arms about, he uses a meek, little pee-pee voice (like he's talking to a Kindergartener) and tip-toes around condemning the act (especially abortion). I just really get the impression that Fr. Casey desperately wishes the Church would conform to being more in line with the political left.
Fr. Casey's stance on prisons makes no sense when, apparently, he thinks prisons shouldn't be punishments at all. I agree that prisons need to change. NO inmate should be able to treat prison like a personal playground where they can get access to drugs, booze, and be able to force sex on another inmate. BUT that's a product of prisons being TOO COMFORTABLE, the opposite of what Fr. Casey is asking for. He says the food is too yucky and they have to (gasp) do work while being punished for crime?! I guess prisons need to be daycare with 3 five star meals a day. WTF? I do not get that. I don't think Jesus would want prisoners to be elevated above the common law abiding man and woman.
Fr Casey needs to close his social media and get shipped off to a monastery.
cant like this enough, I made many of these same points in my comment on his original video, but you have really done your research well to present a thoroughly supported accounting of doctrine here.
A lot of people seem to confuse love and compassion with "enabling".
Or perhaps “enabling” is often conflated with love and compassion when it is truly motivated by an indifference for the true, good, and the beautiful.
let's be honest, Casey Cole is wrong about almost EVERYTHING. I wonder, in all honesty, whether he is even Catholic.
Thank you for making this video. I was in prison for 5 yrs prior to my conversion . Been in jail numerous times and it wasn't nearly as bad as he made it out to be. I was in max security down to low level prisons with work release. Wasn't in any way comparable to slavery.
I get his point, but he missed the mark with that video.
Mercy is for the contrite.
And prison didn't convert me either. I converted 10 years after my release.
Thanks a lot for this video Trent! Watching Fr. Casey's video I was following what he was saying but from the start I couldn't articulate to myself what felt off to me hearing the things he was saying. Particularly the clips you highlighted!
What a ridiculous question: "Would you say that there is ever a justification for slavery." YES, the answer is YES. Unpaid, forced labor is justified as a penalty for crimes. Just like there is a justification for capturing people against their will (arrest) and what would otherwise be kidnapping (inprisonment). Even forcing people to pay child support is often against their will, and yet STILL justified. Being drafted is against your will and is risking your life, and it's STILL just.
Fr. Casey and how he thinks, is what is wrong with the Church. His catechesis is absolutely terrible, and mostly consists of modernist "feelings". The Church (and the US constitution to it's credit) has never condemned involuntary work for crimes. It's actually very different than chattel slavery and has a long just tradition. Despite all that, we rarely force people to work for no pay in prison, only less pay. Frankly, some people shouldn't be paid as a penalty for their crimes and should earn the right to be paid again for their labors. BTW, the Lord said that we toil on this earth because of our sins. It's not supposed to be easy because it's partly a penance. He literally is subverting the Scriptures all the time. I hope he means well, but I do not trust him in any way as a teacher or with vulnerable minds. Stay away.
Also, we don't OWN prisoners and have never claimed to. What a horrifying distortion of the legal system, and an outrageous calumny of those who work in it. He owes law enforcement, corrections, judges, and legislators an apology. How dare he accuse them of engaging in chattel slavery.
Thanks so much for the video, Trent!
The first thing I think about when I hear "kidnapping" is Liam Neeson.
Maybe fr. Casey should discuss his views with the family members of the murdered, victims of the sex trade or rape etc... . Criminals make a choice. Prison doesn't just happen to someone, much like hell, people choose to go there. It is society's duty before God to protect the innocent and punish evil.
I am a firm believer that Casey's channel needs to be eradicated from RUclips at this point. How is his order not stopping this foolish man from speaking?
I posit we are STILL slaves to the system. Noone can just live on their own means. We all must submit to others to enrich them, not ourselves. Maybe Fr Casey needs to spend time around criminals.
He will see we need prisons.
It is so hard to talk about the nuance of slavery discussed in this video. People equate any kind of slavery with American slavery when the Bible explicitly spoke against that type of slavery.
People only want to argue with their feelings and not with logic when it comes to slavery.
This is the guy who bemoaned Catholics "idolizing" the Eucharist.
Thank you for the video. I was disconcerted after watching Father Casey.
I still remember Fr. Casey's controversy with his video on the pro-life topic.
First of all, EVERYWHERE slavery was practiced, even the antebellum south, did not say you cold just do whatever you wanted to a slave. Not one.
This is not a good argument against father Casey. The laws against abuse of slaves in the antebellum South often had little effect since it's not like slaves had much ability to testify on their own behalf or to leave their abuser's property to accuse him of a crime. Trent's point is completely different from yours, in that the system of the antebellum South was chattel slavery and was immoral but completely different than what we are discussing in the US prison system today.
Ask a victim of a brutal crime if their pie in the sky concern for prisoners changed. Been there. Your comments are realistic; Father Casey’s we’re unconvincing.
So clear, so true. Thank you Trent.
As much as I love Upon Friar Review (the channel Fr. Casey runs with a fellow Franciscan where they both react to and analyze media with religious themes), I have to admit that Fr. Casey has quite a few problematic videos on his main channel. Thank you to Trent for respectfully and charitably critiquing his hot takes.
Fr. Casey is a goldmine of things to be wrong about. If you're ever lacking content, just browse his channel.
People like father Casey have led to the downfall of the church in America
I was left in my cell for 34 days straight after a cop assaulted me and falsely acused me of assaulting him. I got my food thrown into my cell. Jail is the most inhumane place i have ever experienced.
I'm sorry you experienced that, truly. I hope you realize that has nothing to do with how a properly run jail is conducted. Even so I assume you're not suggesting there shouldn't be jails, just no mistreatment no? And is your argument in defense of Fr caseys argument? Or against jails in general
@@JJ-ki6sv When the average treatment of a person in jail is this, and it often is; it becomes understandable why people become so opposed to the idea of jails in the first place.
@@marcovalentini863 where are you from? Have you ever visited a US jail? This is not the 'average' in literally any way. That is a very very unjust accusation to make without evidence. It is slandering the officers who try to do the right thing day in and day out.
I appreciate Fathers heart here, and I also appreciate Trent’s logical conclusions. We definitely need both in this one Church.
Actually, no.
Don't need more of Casey's types.
Need both! What for?
Father Casey has a heart for justice n some fashion, but doesn't seem to be able to recognize it. He doesn't seem to know Church teaching as well as somebody in his position should. I don't think we need priests misleading people no matter their good intentions.
@@JamesIdentity what I was saying is we need both a compassionate heart as well as a logical mind in the church. I can understand the confusion about my original statement though.
That's not how reality works. If your heart goes against logic, that's a problem. We need people whose hearts are aligned with reality.
I stopped listening to Fr Casey long long time ago. Thank you Trent!
Father Casey takes things too far to try to make a point, kinda hyperbolic, it's good to do so sometimes but not always
I was briefly incarcerated for having been very stupid, and involved in an incident wherein someone was gravely injured. I did my time, though I assaulted no-one. The matter of my relationship to the State was my chief concern, after the safety of the injured offender (complicated, bad story). Though I made no move to harm anybody, I did something that, had I not, would have prevented a neighbour's face being blindly slashed. He might just as well have died, rather than merely wear a scar.
At the end of the day, I belong absolutely to God. Whatsoever befalls me must do by His sanction. I'm grateful that every person involved in penalizing me for my youthful error did so with mind to prevent crime, rather than to add to it.
The thing that bothered me about Father Casey's video the most is that there was 100% concern for the prisoner, 0% concern for their victims. Also...his comment section was one lemming after another agreeing with him. Truly distrubing.
I would really love to hear what Fr Casey has to say about your points. I totally agree with you btw.
I always like Trent's rebuttals. I like good rebuttals and debates. I like discussion on the facts and I think both Trent and FR. Casey would agree. However, I don't like comments that insult FR. Casey just as I wouldn't like comments insulting Trent. I see where Trent is coming from. FR. Casey may have gone a little overboard (especially with the Hitler comment), but he wanted to bring attention to the conditions prisoners have to endure. I agree with most of what Trent said, and I think he and FR. Casey agree on more than they disagree. No one thinks prisoners should get an easy time or any kind of luxury, but decent meals (3 x a day that are not rotten) are not a luxury. The bottom line that they both agree on and need to be the focus is prison reform. Let's respect both of them and the work they both do to further the cause of Christ, and his love, justice, mercy and grace.
Very well said.
I completely agree that hurling insults at Fr. Casey (or anyone) when we disagree is uncalled for, uncharitable, and a road block to further dialogue. As I recall Fr. Casey cited the abuse thrown his way over his chosen video Trent rebutted as why he didn't want to engage Trent's critique.
No, this is false. Father Casey did not go overboard he stated false things were teachings of the faith. He also stated that things that are moral were un-Christian. Trent was not focusing on the parts that any person including non-christians agree on, namely that thing should be humane and clean. It is disingenuous to pretend that Trent's rebuttal and people's problem with fr Casey means they don't care about making sure people get three meals a day.
The cause of Christ includes justice. Prisoners deserve the correction that they receive in corrections facilities. When done in dignity and truth, it is a grace. They're called penitentiaries because they are opportunities for penance. Father Casey insults those who are engaged in the criminal justice system, perhaps unintentionally, when he suggests that they are involved in immoral slavery.
He lays unjust burdens on them when he says things are unchristian that are *explicitly* allowed by the church, and advocated in the scriptures. Lastly, he is a priest and should convey the faith accurately, not sow confusion and error. No parent could have his attitude regarding punishment. In justice and truth, neither could any government.
Thank you Trent for your clarification of the purpose for internment and educating Fr. Casey. Wonder what Fr. Casey thinks of allowing scores of people to cross our boarders and the offer them jobs with substandard wages on which they cannot survive unless they work long hours, live in substandard housing , etc. ?
Thank you Trent!
Glad I’m not the only one. The way he frames the issue to me was part of the issue
As much as I love Father Casey and do enjoy his faith-based content, he gets a surprising amount wrong politically.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:03 🎙️ Trent Horn responds to Father Casey Cole's video on imprisoning people.
00:17 💡 Trent agrees with addressing issues in the prison system, but disagrees with Father Casey's claims.
01:12 💬 Trent agrees with aspects of Father Casey's original video, such as issues with incarceration and treatment of prisoners.
03:39 🧐 Trent addresses Father Casey's points on prison labor, arguing that it can have benefits, rehabilitate offenders, and serve societal needs.
06:25 ❌ Trent disagrees with Father Casey's blanket assertion that imprisonment and prison labor are contrary to human dignity.
10:46 📖 Trent explores biblical and historical perspectives on slavery and distinguishes forms of slavery.
13:15 💰 Trent argues that prison labor for inmates is not inherently evil and can have justifications, especially for paying back their debt to society.
16:01 ⚖️ Trent discusses the purpose of punishment, societal costs of crime, and the moral context of retribution and rehabilitation.
18:35 🚧 Trent explains the balance between punishment and rehabilitation and the concept of prisoners serving society through labor.
22:01 🙏 Trent emphasizes the importance of compassion for prisoners and the need to help them change, while acknowledging the role of just punishment.
25:30 🤝 Trent invites dialogue and concludes by promoting care for prisoners, while maintaining the principles of justice and dignity.
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The Franciscans used to be such a great order.
Has Fr Casey ever responded back?
I would love to know what in the world Fr. Casey thinks would be the ideal way society should deal with criminals? It seems he wants prison to be a resting place with free room, board, and food that is somewhere they choose to be and enjoy living in?
Thank you Trent for another thoughtful video showing we can respectfully disagree with our spiritual leaders on issues outside of ex cathedra
Fr Casey’s heart is in the right place albeit he is very naive and shows why sometimes you should stay in your own lane.
Anyone who has ever been to prison or has family in prison knows that jobs can be a great outlet to pass the time, make money or get privileges. In fact certain jobs have waiting lists. The human mind and body needs to be worked and cultivated less it waste away and lose it vitality
Where I think Casey can focus is efforts is on real human right violations that occur in prison. Any person serving their time in a federal or private institution should not have to fear for their physical safety on a 24 safety. People are routinely sexually assaulted, extorted and manipulated all under “guard supervision”.
also the cost commissary is astronomical and orders of
magnitude higher than in the real world. there is no reason why you shouldn’t work a full day and make two dollars a day. Can’t even buy a honey bun with that.
Not all prisoners are evil people and unfortunately people make mistakes and deserve second chances AFTER they serve their punishment.
Trent, you hit the nail on the head. Thanks.
I used to watch Fr Casey's videos but stopped when he seemed to veer from real Catholic social teaching around charity and the poor to a quasi-Marxist social teaching. I have no problem with radical holiness or radical actions and sacrifice related to the poor, but when a preacher veers too far from what the Catechism teaches, I stop listening. I used to subscribe to his videos and I now have him muted so I haven't seen his content in years. Based on my previous consumption of his content, his stances on jail and prisoners don't surprise me. I believe that he should read the Catechism more in search of timeless truths and to stop looking for what is trendy in the modern age. Modern Catholics don't need his flawed synthesis from modernism to Catholicism, real Catholicism is more than enough.
I’m agreement with you, Trent! Regardless, I love you both! 🙏🏼✝️🕊️
Honestly, while I like "upon friar reviews", I kinda dislike many takes that Fr. Casey has...
I remember him talking about, idk, socialism or communism in one video, how "that system isn't bad" or something... And I am from Poland, and while i was born around 7 years after the fall of USSR, in 1998, I know many things from my parents, grandparents, members of my family, and also from the history lessons...
And when i heard from Fr. Casey that "communism/socialism may not be that bad of a system" i immediately remember Father Popieluszko, and how he was K**led by communists...
I might not even go that far, i have example in family, how socialism/communism tried to make young people have negative feelings about church... For example my now 90 years old Grandfather was a member of "Service to Poland" - and he told me, about how once they shouted to their commanders that "we want to go to the church", So they made them walk to a church, through a hard terrain, just to make them never say that again (oh, and it was summer, so it was very hot) - next time when commanders asked, who wants to go to church now, nobody answered...
They also, it seems, were forced to do some sort of provocations/good PR for communist regime, for example, they got some bread with sausage in front of church, from their commanders, who said "eat!"
They had to do this, so the regime would say "see, we, the ruling power, give our people food, and church gives nothing" or other nonsense like that.
So in that case, if Fr. Casey said that (and i remember he said something like that, around 1-2 years ago, maybe..)...Then he is very, very wrong, to put it lightly.
Yes.I always wonder about Fr.Casey.it seems to ke he is trying to please people rather than preaching the Truth 9f our Carholic Faith.i wonder if his Superiors are aware of this.
How does this square with Hell? For that's what Hell is, eternal prison.
I believe the difference between a human jail and Hell is that those in Hell stubbornly remain their by their own will, whereas a prisoner is kept in jail by force even if they wish to leave. I believe comparing Hell to prison is misleading, as it implies that God is forcing sinners to be there against their will. But the Catechism says this:
"To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell.'"
It says later:
"The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."
Hell's greatest suffering is not something imposed by God, it is the natural consequence of eternally rejecting him. If we are speaking in metaphors we may indeed call this a prison of their own making, but if we are speaking literally then we must remember the distinctions between a literal prison and Hell.
I think the difference is best summed up thusly: "You can escape a prison without repenting. You cannot do the same with Hell."
Read 13th amendment. It does leave a loophole for slavery. I think it should be changed. A fair wage, for prisoners, especially if you're supposed to give them the opportunity to make restitution would be moral and just. The State and/or private corporations should not be able to take advantage of prisoners for their own monetary or professional gain. The gain is in reform and restitution. Taking advantage of them would go against their dignity.
It is not a loophole given that it is so explicit about it. I personally think not but would find it confusing where to apply the punishment since the U.S. has no galleys.
This is a case of somebody coming in to solve a problem by creating a worse problem. People's obsession with hourly wage rates can really be harmful.
Simply having something useful to do (outside, even) and the ability to interact with the world outside the prison is essentially a reward for prisoners otherwise confined to an empty cell with nothing but their own thoughts.
Let alone actually having the opportunity to learn something with market value they can use after prison.
These are cases where prisoners are signing up to work a job. If you are volunteering to do a job, are you being exploited? Isn't voluntary employment the opposite of slavery?
@@misterkittyandfriends1441 voluntary work is absolutely moral. It's them being taken advantage of for monetary gain that I disagree with. Their labor does have a value and that value should go towards restitution and for their care plus nothing more in my view.
@@ahoblit Given the costs of prison facilities, if a prisoner was charged for their "stay" but worked full time and were given something close to a market wage at picking up trash, do you imagine they would leave with money or a bill?
Even discounting their need to repay society for their crime, I imagine they would owe. It costs $75k to lock a person up for a year in California. Most street sweepers are not making more than $75k a year.
It would be sort of silly if prison were a secure government food and housing program where prisoners received market pay, plus paid transportation, and other benefits. So they get paid less because many orgs don't want to hire criminals due to the risk, and they get garnished to pay for the prison services they are utilizing.
I can't think of any metric for "fair" for voluntary employment in a situation where you are guaranteed to have all basic needs supplied. If it is subjective and voluntary, then why don't the parties involved in the agreement determine what is acceptable?
Trent, what is your take on what Matt Walsh and Michael Knowles have been saying about the need for more prisons and more criminals in prison? And Michael Knowles take on the way the new president of El Salvador had been treating the members of MS-13 in his prisons?
Suggestion: add some sound at the beginning of the video so I don’t think my headphones aren’t working 😂
Suggestion...practice a bit of patience & in two seconds you'll be rewarded by knowing that your earphones work just fine.
@@TF80s Thanks that’s super helpful.