I just seen it and will see it again tomorrow i really don't think people calling this bad are watching the same movie it was no where near a bad movie
@@The7evenDayTheory I think the Gaga fans are disappointed that there's so little of her in the actual movie after the teasers and trailers promoted the hell out of her role making it seem she's the co-lead to Joaquin.
@@_Just_Another_Guy before I watched it I heard that they cut alot of her scenes but she's still in it alot they made it seem like she only had a few scenes she's all through the movie
Can you explain? I thought the film was good. I thought the music choices was great. To me the music was not suppose to make sense we are in the head of a mad man. So it made perfect sense. I hate when in musicals people start singing then the whole town sings then when the song stops everyone goes back to their lives lol. I like the way it was presented here. The songs were in his head because he is a mad man like Haley.
@gohanson27 I just thought it was a study in madness. Arthur is mentally ill. Lee is a narcissistic psychopath (with money, so nobody bothers her). The guards hate themselves. Our society is lost and looking for heroes. This film is about how messed up we are right now, and music is all we have to comfort us.
I just have to get this off my chest, Lady Gaga is always mentioned as the highlight of whatever film she is in; but her ability to choose a viable script is very questionable.
You don’t know that the script wasn’t longer and cut in post, look at Thor love and thunder they cut out 40 minutes of Christian bail after and he didn’t know
She’s starred in three movies… ASIB universally acclaimed and HoG mixed at worst lol. If you care HoG was very different, including a voice over from Gaga throughout, and the movie was changed a lot during post.
I dont understand how Todd Philipps flopped so hard. He had the opportunity of a lifetime. Lady Gaga as Harley could have been a landmark moment in pop culture.
To be fair, the first one was mega overrated imo. It had no real story and the (weird) discussion around it made it feel more important or intelligent than it really was
“I felt like he was going to sleep as a defense mechanism. I did that during Madame Web.” - Grace I had to stop the video, because I couldn’t stop laughing. Omg! Grace! You are hilarious. 😂🤣😂
It’s a shame for Gaga cuz she’s been incredible in what should be sure fire hits (Gucci, Joker) where on paper it has so much potential only for her to be ultimately undermined by the director
@@terrymcginnis01he went full irreverent with his artistic choices, a la Napoleon, alienating both the niche built in audience by not staying true to the essence of the “character”, and the general audience which didn’t care about the subversion to begin with and ended up bored or frustrated. Both of these films come across as unnecessary ‘fck you’s’, without the heft to back it up
TBH this was the first time, in a long time that i walked out of a movie so disappointed. I was trying so hard throughout the movie to like it and at the end i just couldnt. Kinda bummed me out 😢
I saw this film as a study in madness. Not a superhero movie. A study in madness, narcissism, psychopathy, manipulation and desolation of our society. Music is our only succor. I enjoyed this movie in spite of the directors true intentions (what ever they may be).
@@juniorjames7076yeah, if it was a standalone movie about a killer, It would have worked. But it’s the joker and so they never had a chance in making a good film with this particular take. Bummer
My biggest problem of this movie is that NOTHING happened. They just went over the storypoints of the first movie in that courtroom and interviews and such. Yeah we know these events? We watched them? Why did we have to go through them all over again? I was so excited for him to be the full Joker after seeing the trailer of him smashing that judge's head in. But to see all these Joker scenes were just fantasy musical numbers was so bad. On paper I can see what they tried to do, but the execution was so poorly done. Also to hide Gaga for half of the movie feels like an insult to her talent.
The musical was all happening in his head as well, so the story kept stopping everytime he went into song which eventually made you annoyed with the musical aspects because it keeps clashing with the actual story
The first thing is all about Arthur being liberated and feeling free. I will never forget when he stood up on that police car, painting on his smile and for the first time really standing upright and like he was proud of himself.
Lady GaGa was WASTED in this wtf she deserves better than what she was given here. The movie did have GREAT moments just like Grace said and the only reason I went to see this was for GaGa. I also love Harley Quinn and thought we were gonna get an amazing take but instead all we got was a tease.
I just saw it and I haven’t been this bored in a long, long time. It’s not a character study, it’s not effective social commentary, it’s not a legal drama, it’s just a lot of nothing. There was definitely a more thought provoking way to critique figure-head worship and serial killer fangirls…this wasn’t it.
When will the Mad Love story reach our cinema screens instead of the cutting room floor lol? It seems like Joker and Harley are cursed to always get their Mad Love arc cut from movies.
As BTT’s feature Dune head, I’m gonna say it’s okay to like Paul during his early years when he frees the Fremen and takes down the Empire, but the irony of him becoming a tyrant himself gives the series such depth, and allows the audience to realize the Bene Gesserit weren’t all that wrong in trying to stop/control Paul.
If they had done a 90 minute court room movie WITHOUT any singing, it would have been a lot better. The scene where he cross examined Gary Puddles was really well done.
That was the most poignant scene of this sequel. He also had the best scene of the first movie, when he was locked in the apartment after Joker killed the other clown.
Several people walked out at my showing. About the music, I’d rather them writing all new songs specifically to fit the story of this movie alone rather than covers because I feel the songs are out of place.
Yeah, that could have been a really interesting approach to a sequel, giving real insight into the characters mental state. When I first heard it was a "juke-box musical" months ago I knew it was a bad sign of things to come.
Segwaying songs into speaking dialogs is an artform reserved for musical directors and creators. I wonder who they hired or didn't hire for this task. It could've worked, the music selections were great byt it was so so clunky to the point of distraction.
I think Dune : Messiah won't suffer from the same problem based simply on the fact that the characters are very different. Paul is a product of a system meant to empower him to colonize/rule a planet/empire. He is the chosen one, and the only suffering he faces is due to the power he and his family possesses. The joker character is more or less the complete opposite, in that he suffers at the hand of a system meant to tear him and others in his class down. I would say seeing someone in power being corrupted and then torn down is rather cathartic to a wide audience, which is why Paul's downfall won't be an issue (I think).
also the director can say he staying true to the book. And dune strike the same itch as Joker did. So don't see the fans being mad when they make switch. Also it was hints of Paul going a bit nuts at the end of the last one
I thought Arthur's "change" was clearly presented in the movie. First it was when he was kinda moved/teary eyed by Gary's testimony. Then his breaking point, when he got SAd by the guards, then the guards accidentally k*lled that teenage inmate who was close to him, because of his influence as Joker (the chant they were doing earlier which got some of the inmates in trouble). That was when he took responsibility, after he saw the effect his Joker persona has on other people. The animated opening sequence sets it all.
It's funny that Grace is exactly the character of Lee. She wants Joker to represent something she thinks. For Lee, once he rejected the persona, she abandoned him. For Grace, once the movie stop agreeing with her opinions, she jumped ship.
This was one of the movies I was actually going to see in a movie theater, but after hearing it's a slap in the face to the fans and a character assassination I hope they lose millions.
I don’t think the movie is good But it is not a character assassination nor a slap in the face to fans. I loved the first one even on rewatches. This one just loses the plot.
Our Guy Fawkes night celebrates his defeat and not being able to blow up parliament. It's bonfire night where they burn effigies of him. Sounds bonkers when i write it down but so normal to us lol
"I've never heard anyone call Guy Fawkes toxic" 🤦🤦🤦 This is such a bad take. It's like saying "I've never heard anyone call Bin Laden toxic" The guy was literally a 17th Century terrorist. He's not a freedom fighter or a folk hero. He tried to destroy a government building and kill the heads of government. People celebrate that he failed and was caught and executed for his crimes
I fail to see how Joker's fans flipping the FIRE DEPARTMENT is powerful. All they want is violence and anarchy, they don't offer any change or alternative, they just want to see the world burn. They're villains.
Difference is the first two are already hinting at Paul’s descent, especially with the final shot of Chani. The building blocks are there. Phillips just has no understanding of his toy box
Also the fact that Dune is using an existing story in a different media, whereas Joker is using an iconic character but placing him in a unique interpretation where the writers had free reign to go anywhere they liked. There is a strict set of promises in a novel adaptation. There is a lot more freedom when just borrowing a character.
I saw this film as a study in madness. Not a superhero movie. A study in madness, narcissism, psychopathy, manipulation and desolation of our society. Music is our only succor. I enjoyed this movie in spite of the directors true intentions (what ever they may be).
Here’s my take, because I feel like Arthur at the end of the first movie when he says “You wouldn’t get it”: Joker Folie à Deux offers a necessary corrective to the first film’s unintended glorification of Arthur Fleck, a mentally ill man, who, in the wake of the original, became a “literally me” icon. Where the first movie saw Fleck propped up as a symbol of rebellion and misunderstood genius, Joker Folie à Deux works hard to emphasize the reality of his mental illness, illustrating that his journey should not be celebrated but deeply pitied. Through the character of Harley Quinn, the film makes a sharp critique of those who see themselves in Fleck’s Joker persona. Harley embodies the toxic mindset of those who latch onto the Joker’s superficial image without acknowledging the brokenness beneath. Her affection is not for the man himself but for the myth he represents-a fitting metaphor for the audiences who idolize figures like Joker, Walter White, or Homelander, confusing their chaos for strength. The film portrays these “literally me” types as often privileged and removed from the real struggles of mental illness, which Arthur exemplifies. The difference between Arthur’s true pain and their imagined one is stark-Arthur’s trauma is real, and their identification is hollow. The film’s narrative, I believe, condemns the celebration of broken characters, highlighting how dangerous it is to glorify people like Arthur. It suggests that had Arthur remained grounded, rejecting the fantasy of the Joker persona, he may have had a chance at redemption. But by buying into the conditional love of Harley (and, by extension, the toxic adoration of those who idolize him), he ensures his own downfall. The musical elements in the film heighten this point, serving as a metaphor for the fantasy world in which Joker exists-where he’s celebrated, even loved, for his violence. When Arthur finally stops singing by the film’s conclusion, it represents his rejection of that fantasy, an acceptance of the reality of who he is-a broken, mortal man, not someone to be mythologized or worshipped. In its controversial final scene, Joker Folie à Deux reminds us that Arthur Fleck, for all his inner turmoil, is still human. His legend can be dismantled, and ultimately, he can be torn down like anyone else. This film calls for an end to the unhealthy glorification of characters like him, urging us to see the pain behind the mask, rather than celebrating the mask itself.
Creators need to stop trying to micro manage their audience perception of their work. There seems to be a narcissistic streak in creators this last decade, who are incensed by audience glorification of characters they wanted them to hate and not getting their vision, then coming back and writing sequels that seek to pull those characters down from the pedestal their portrayal placed them on. Audience buy into the fantasy and those that love the joke make memes of it in social media. But people get it. The Joker is not a hero. The audience knows this, they are just having fun with the fantasy of it all. Creators then become angry because they think the emotional reaction the audience is portraying on social media is not what it should be. So then they come to hate the audience and the character and seek to force the perception they want. Neil Druckman did the same thing to his character Joel in the Last of Us, with his sequel.
I agreed with you on so many things, everyone wanted to see joker in full throttle mode on this. The first one did such a good job building up for that. And it really felt like todd philips changed his mind. He did initially say he had no plans for a sequel so he shouldve kept it that way instead of ruining the legacy and wasting lady gaga’s potential to be an awesome harley quinn
I found the movie endlessly fascinating if you look at it as a complete delusional fantasy in Arthur's mind. Everyone is able to understand that the musical sequences are part of Arthur's delusion but i think Harley is also a delusion. She is his Tyler Durden à la Fight Club. She manages to have a lighter in a prison. No one seems to notice her get up and burn the room down. She magically appears in his cell to apply his make up. She is allowed to enter the courtroom late and no one bats an eye. With each court scene she slowly gets to sit closer and closer and her make up evolves as Joker seems to crawl out of Arthur's psyche. It's even said by his lawyer that Arthur makes up imaginary relationships with women. I dont think Harley is real. She is another split in his personality that is there to pull Joker out of him. I think this is just the story of a sad insane man who was rotting away in his cell coming up with a dream world made of delusions of grandeur. The amount of nonsensical actions that were allowed (can Joker really represent himself in clown make up and not be considered out of order? Can he really just easily escape from a courthouse). Just my theory.
Remember when everyone was saying that joker 2 will be the superior R rated comic book film of 2024...How the tables have turned lol P.S while Todd made an award nominee film, Dennis is a better more experienced director, I have more faith in him with dune
So much positive anticipation, but why weren't people up-in-arms months ago when it was revealed to be a musical? Because they got Lady Gaga as Harley?
If you think Dune Messiah should be doing anything other than tearing down the idea of Paul Artreides as a hero, you clearly have no clue what the story is about. Dune 2 already laid the ground work for this to happen. “People seem to like him”. That’s the point. Jesus
This movie really made me appreciate Nolan as a DC director. Nolan brought the artistic flair of an interesting artist, but NEVER looked down on his movie audience OR the material he was making. Even when people didn’t love Dark Knight Rises, he stayed commendably above the fray. Todd drank his own cool aid and thought he could lecture his audience, that’s SO condescending and misses the point of the first movie.
what i dont understand is that why do studios greenlight production like this or the last jedi, cant they see how damaging this to their intellectual properties? i cant believe they (studio executives) did not see this trainwreck coming
Harley idolized joker because he actually did the things she thought of and wanted to do she sees the joker as her spirit animal. The scene where she tells him she was watching th Murray and she thought he should kill this guy abd then you did she said i thouht that was brilliant
Imagine if The Joker got arrested after the first film and a crazed fan Harley Quinn runs into the cop car and helps Arthur escape. He then meets a bunch of mentally disturbed people that want to be led by him. He then starts to attack the elite using Joker look alikes. Todd could have went so many places with this.
Can't forgive they cut her "that's entertainment" musical breakup scene on the stairs! I was so looking forward to it! it looked so cool in filming footage and that's why she kept singing bits of it throughout the film to lead up to a belter of a song at the end
For the record, it actually common for an artist to become successful with a particular I.P. then become resentful with that I.P. and its fanbase and lash out with new art Examples Hideaki Anno - end of evangelion Christopher Nolan - Dark knight Rises Ridley Scott - Prometheus
Grace a lot of the things you talked about I actually wrote about in my applications to film graduate programs so this makes me feel I’m on the right track :)
There’s plenty to copy! Have him be a crime boss like Goodfellas going nuts and pushing too many powerful people or rule the city like Bill the Butcher in Gangs of NY. Or even Shutter Island where he can’t tell what’s real or not but of course still tries to burn the city down.
@@shubhangbahadur7112 LMAO! Did Thanos win a Oscar for it or something? They are both comic book movies sure but they are not the same. I doubt Gaga will win an Oscar but Thanos doesn't deliver what Harley could've deliver. It's like comparing Gal Gadot and Angela Bassett.
i disagree; the first was not a masterpiece and this sequel was a step above the first one and surprisingly goes hand in hand with it. the Joker is merely a symbol, all Arthur Fleck wanted was to do comedy. enough with the cinematic universe banter. but it seems comic book themed movies are meant to be nothing more than cinematic universes given the moviegoing displeasure. You ask, "What changed?" when arthur ran from his joker followers. I'd like to think it was Gary Puddles and his confession of claiming arthur 'was the only one good to him'. for the nightmare to end he had to renounce the joker persona. look what it was leading to! they blew up the courthouse!
I really didn’t think that i would be a defender of this film, but i think that this film was really clear of the theme of the ‘Joker’ not being a powerful persona to uptake. Arthur doesn’t want to perform for people, even in the first film, he just wants to be normal and feel like he is understood. He doesn’t want to be a clown that tears himself down for others amusement, and I think that Lee is absolutely the type of audience that the film does a good job criticising. The people that wanted to see Joker in his full glory don’t realise that being the Joker looks fun, but it isn’t actually fun for the person who is being pushed to their mental limits to get there. Like the Sorpranos, I think this is a good deconstruction of how we want to have figures that cause destruction so we can latch on to their anger, so we don’t want to give them what they actually need, which is rehabilitation and empathy for their own health. Arthur is a bit of a loser, which is how he got so down in the first place, and him being Joker isn’t liberation, it’s illness and his absolute lowest point! It’s a good addition to the trend of deconstructing the villains our hero’s fight, and making them less of a 2d evil, and making them sympathetic humans that need help.
I just got back from the cinema and I LOVED IT the song where great I kind of wanted him to either be killed by his fans or by Harley. Lee killing Artur was foreshadowed, they should have stick to the plan
I've just watched the movie at home (I wouldn't spend money on a ticket after the awful reviews) and it's pretty clear what happened: Todd Phillips just wanted to make an awful movie on purpose so he wouldn't have to continue making future DC movies. I only wonder how no Warner Bros. executive saw Todd's plan of completely imploding the Joker franchise during filming 😂😂
@@KEDARUNIVERSE but he created the first one and... Thinking about... It's kinda iconic that since he doesn't wanna continue making Joker movies, he just imploded the character with this one so no other director can continue what he started 🤣🤣
@@WellingtonOliveira_well_author that’s my whole point if he didn’t want to make another joker he simply wouldn’t. Have just cause he made the first one doesn’t mean he’s instantly locked onto the franchise plenty of films have had different directors take on for them
Grace this might be your best review ever. And I do not say that lightly! Your breakdown is so insightful and accurate. You've done a phenomenal job with this one. Truly.
Well, Dune Messiah case is a bit different, Denis would have the cushion/airbag to soften the blow, if there ends up any, with the source material, the books. Also, the book fans already know the story of Paul, if there would be any blow it would be from general audience and also then the narrative would be that's how it played out in books. If Denis tries to go in other direction then there is mostly uphill for both types of audiences. With Joker, that's not the case, This Joker is not based on any arc of Joker from comics except superfluously adapting Trial of Joker and Harley-Joker & Dent basic story elements from comics. With Dune Messiah for Paul, it's a full arc. With Joker 2, it's undoing and backtracking the growth and arc of Joker.
That is on point - guards also turned on him. Todd P. Wanted to show that the joker was gone from Arthur after closing remarks. But it did not feel like that.
@7:07 to be fair, in the UK Guy Fawkes Night is celebrating him getting caught before he could blow up Parliament, not that he tried, it started out as an official holiday and people still burn effigies of him
Imo the joker operates at a large scale too. He's a chaotic mastermind who can tango with Batman. He isn't Travis Bryant or Freddie Quell from 'The Master'. This awards bait restraint just doesn't fit the character.
They could have done an adaptation of Mad Love (the graphic novel) and nerds would have eaten it up with a spoon. I really think the problem is Phillips.
I did not mind the musical part. I minded the waste of Harley, the waste of that story, the waste of an ending. Nothing ends up being satisfying about it story wise.
The musical numbers should’ve echoed that liberated feeling which Arthur felt in the end of the first film. The scene where he looks up to the sky and the guards umbrellas changes into colours was a sign of that. He’s liberated so he sees the world as a colourful party. I think they should’ve had a dance number with the guards swirling around the umbrellas and stomping around the puddles just like Singin in the Rain. That’s the sort of musical numbers the film should’ve had and already had the groundwork for. Also imagine if Arthur was retelling the first film to Lee as the monologue montage from La La Land and with an original song. It could’ve been so spectacular!!
Knowing all these things, i felt bad for the character more and now understand why people or the fans of the first movie are feeling bad about the sequel.
Really enjoyed the review Grace! With regards to Joker 2, I *wish* they would have tied Lee to the other inmate who attacks Arthur in the final scenes. I would have had Lee working alongside the fellow inmate, both showing disdain in a private conversation for Arthur who has hidden his 'true self' while being incarcerated. Lee and the inmate could have plotted to help Arthur become Joker once again, with them both being utterly disappointed with his stance in the final courtroom scenes when he turns his back on the Joker persona. It would have tied everything together. It could also help allude to the inmate being the 'real' joker by also having a pre-existing relationship with Lee.
The movie didnt need a sequel which is the problem. Its the same with Archie Bunker or Vegeta. You arent supposed to like them. Yet that's the problem like Engineer from Prometheus seeing humans or even Dune main character in the books.
Just came back from watching it, and Honestly I absolutely loved it. I personally don't get what a lot of people are on about. I think it is just as good as the first. And I just don't think people understood the movie, and some people are starting to show that they didn't really understand the first one either. 😅😅 A friend of mine who had watched the movie before me, said that I would hate the movie and that is dogshit. And I have realised they completely missed the point of the movie. Everything My friend had a problem with, made me realise they like Harley Quinn, they are all those people that wanted Arthur to be the Joker again. 😂😂 It's insane that a movie can spell out what it is trying to say and some people still completely miss it. 😂
The difference though is dune messiah explains what people didn't get in the first book, paul was always meant to be the bad guy of the story. I feel Denis, adapted that well in dune part 2, his arc didn't feel like a heroic one in that film, it felt like he did make an effort to make the audience feel the darkness that was consuming paul. So I think dune messiah should follow on with that, and it'll be ok.
So was he saying that the Atreides who believed in honor, loyalty and concern for the common man were bad? While the Emperor who took the side of the barbaric, but rich and powerful Harkonnen to destroy a popular House was good? Or Harkonnen's ruthlessness ("greed is good") is the way to go? Or Paul should have just died or stepped aside and let them have their way on Dune and in the galaxy? In the movie _El Cid_ Charleton Heston's titular character tries to be an honorable knight and King's Champion, serving the crown and working to the benefit of all citizens of Spain, even Moors. But because he can't do that, it's implied that he should have realized those he served were corrupt and he should have seized the throne. Likewise the story of Joan of Arc (there were two movies in 1999) suggests she should have seized the throne rather than be loyal to the coward, the Dauphin, who did nothing when part of France was occupied and had her executed in the end.
Wow, I am completely new to your channel - it is very commendable how you have set up an entire presentation for your review, and your passion is very clear! Great review!
Only reason I would say for others to see this movie is because of the acting its really outstanding but other than that the plot is straight wack and has so many plot holes that make no sense at all definitely won’t rewatch this for another few years
This dismantling and tearing apart of Joker/Arthur actually reminds me so much of how the House of the Dragon writers handled Daemon in S2. Especially after admitting to being so confused and put off by all the love he got in S1.
@@manantial773 One of Daemon's core strengths is that he is a competent leader of men. Not only is he great at rally men to his cause but also at leading them. He is known and respected for this. In the books, he conquers the Riverlands and raises the army for Rhaenyra with ease, like two minutes tops. Yet the showrunners had him bumbling through shit like an utter idiot for the entire season, being humbled and dragged by Alys, and then at the end, humiliated by a literal child who then hands him the army.
I saw the movie today knowing only a few things; 1. There would be musical elements 2. It's a follow up to Joker 3. Reviews aren't great. I left the theatre feeling completely satisfied. I know I'm in the minority but I really enjoyed this movie. It was an excellent continuation and I don't understand the critiques, especially from people who say they loved the first movie.
I hate the idea that people might think that a director encourage these ideas by exploring them in a movie... it's a commentary on the system, on how society viewed mental health at the time, etc... The viewers aren't dumb... We all watched the first movie with an understanding & maybe with some degree of empathy, but that degree of empathy isn't dangerous.
I watched both movies as JOKER not THE JOKER. And both movies as AN origin story not THE origin story. I have found both confronting, compelling, elegant and out of the box. I put this latest one together with Dancer in the dark. Where the music moments are simply opening a bracket of fantasy in a very dark life, without having to soar the Hollywood way.
If you want to watch a courtroom movie musical about a murderer who escaped into fantasy sequences, just watch Chicago instead 😂
That's what I was expecting of this movie lol
I kept thinking of Chicago repeatedly throughout this film 😂
I thought about Chicago on the courtroom shooting scene like A LOT!
Chicago is everything this film should have been...
Joker had it coming
It’s insane how fast this movie went from one of the most anticipated movies of 2024 to a movie that fans are saying: don’t go see it.
Seriously!
@@CHarr1991it’s so sad. I had such high hope for it. 😔
I just seen it and will see it again tomorrow i really don't think people calling this bad are watching the same movie it was no where near a bad movie
@@The7evenDayTheory I think the Gaga fans are disappointed that there's so little of her in the actual movie after the teasers and trailers promoted the hell out of her role making it seem she's the co-lead to Joaquin.
@@_Just_Another_Guy before I watched it I heard that they cut alot of her scenes but she's still in it alot they made it seem like she only had a few scenes she's all through the movie
Phillips went full Coppola with WB's money and IP💀
Maybe he was the real Joker.
Can you explain? I thought the film was good. I thought the music choices was great. To me the music was not suppose to make sense we are in the head of a mad man. So it made perfect sense. I hate when in musicals people start singing then the whole town sings then when the song stops everyone goes back to their lives lol. I like the way it was presented here. The songs were in his head because he is a mad man like Haley.
@gohanson27 I just thought it was a study in madness. Arthur is mentally ill. Lee is a narcissistic psychopath (with money, so nobody bothers her). The guards hate themselves. Our society is lost and looking for heroes. This film is about how messed up we are right now, and music is all we have to comfort us.
At least he doesn't defend Victor Salva
...at the end the camera pans up, REVEAL: Todd Phillips is the one who stabbed Arthur! Then Todd proceeds to slit his mouth into a smile,
I just have to get this off my chest, Lady Gaga is always mentioned as the highlight of whatever film she is in; but her ability to choose a viable script is very questionable.
You don’t know that the script wasn’t longer and cut in post, look at Thor love and thunder they cut out 40 minutes of Christian bail after and he didn’t know
I’m surprised the spoiler review has been uploaded before the 1st weekend box office.
Didn’t she and Phoenix rewrite the script on the fly? Everything about this production is questionable
Also true. However we know the original ending was apparently worse than the final product, and Gaga’s character was central in the original ending.
She’s starred in three movies… ASIB universally acclaimed and HoG mixed at worst lol. If you care HoG was very different, including a voice over from Gaga throughout, and the movie was changed a lot during post.
I dont understand how Todd Philipps flopped so hard. He had the opportunity of a lifetime. Lady Gaga as Harley could have been a landmark moment in pop culture.
Well, the first one was done with passion and hardwork, this time was done by corporates who want to cash cow the first one because it made 1 Billion.
Read his interviews, He doesn't understand why the 1st one was good. Why it resonated with audiences.
You're giving Harley Quinn too much credit.
To be fair, the first one was mega overrated imo. It had no real story and the (weird) discussion around it made it feel more important or intelligent than it really was
@@lars7282 I disagree, movies like the 1st joker don't exist, specially ones that break out into the 1 billion dollar worldwide mainstream.
The problem was that Todd Phillips was more interested in turning Joker into a cautionary tale than in adapting the iconic Joker and Harley romance.
The issue is in my opinion he achieved with the first so sadly this was unnecessary
I wanted Joker to push Harley down those stairs at the end. I wanted Joker to do SOMETHING.
His name is Arthur
Good point @@terrymcginnis01
Who? The Joker or Joker never showed up from what we were intentionally told. They both should have tumbled down those stairs.
I thought she was going to shoot him at the stairs, because kept insinuating that she was going to shoot him
by that point in the film he was extremely defeated; it wouldn’t have made sense for him to snap like that.
“I felt like he was going to sleep as a defense mechanism. I did that during Madame Web.” - Grace
I had to stop the video, because I couldn’t stop laughing. Omg! Grace! You are hilarious. 😂🤣😂
Had to stop and laugh hard too. 😂
😂😂 the way she said it so casual too lmao i can’t
Oh man remember how excited we all were with that first trailer
fr I thought it was bouta be a masterpiece
As long as Dune Messiah isn’t a jukebox musical it should be fine. 😂
Chani's character was terrible in _Dune Part 2._ Maybe she betrays him in the movie _Dune Messiah_ (if they dare to use that title)?
🎵 “There are Sixty One Billion corpses on Kaitan. Thats a fact. It’s a thing we can’t deny.” 🎵🎵
@@sandal_thong8631she won't.. Paul already said she'll forgive him...
its not, lol. ist the second part of trilogy.
It’s a shame for Gaga cuz she’s been incredible in what should be sure fire hits (Gucci, Joker) where on paper it has so much potential only for her to be ultimately undermined by the director
I agree. I didn’t know she could act.
Grace understands the importance of pumped up hair
Hehe I do.
Todd went full Ridley. Never go full Ridley.
What do you mean? I request elaboration please.
@@terrymcginnis01he went full irreverent with his artistic choices, a la Napoleon, alienating both the niche built in audience by not staying true to the essence of the “character”, and the general audience which didn’t care about the subversion to begin with and ended up bored or frustrated. Both of these films come across as unnecessary ‘fck you’s’, without the heft to back it up
Now Samus has to fight him.
@@lacolem1thank you for such an insightful response 😊 hopefully Ridley Scott doesn't do that with Gladiator 2 next month.
@@TheMaestroMizerous OK nerd
TBH this was the first time, in a long time that i walked out of a movie so disappointed. I was trying so hard throughout the movie to like it and at the end i just couldnt. Kinda bummed me out 😢
I felt the exact way. I literally told my sister "I never left a theater angry in my life."
I saw this film as a study in madness. Not a superhero movie. A study in madness, narcissism, psychopathy, manipulation and desolation of our society. Music is our only succor. I enjoyed this movie in spite of the directors true intentions (what ever they may be).
@@juniorjames7076yeah, if it was a standalone movie about a killer, It would have worked. But it’s the joker and so they never had a chance in making a good film with this particular take. Bummer
My biggest problem of this movie is that NOTHING happened.
They just went over the storypoints of the first movie in that courtroom and interviews and such. Yeah we know these events? We watched them? Why did we have to go through them all over again? I was so excited for him to be the full Joker after seeing the trailer of him smashing that judge's head in. But to see all these Joker scenes were just fantasy musical numbers was so bad.
On paper I can see what they tried to do, but the execution was so poorly done. Also to hide Gaga for half of the movie feels like an insult to her talent.
The musical was all happening in his head as well, so the story kept stopping everytime he went into song which eventually made you annoyed with the musical aspects because it keeps clashing with the actual story
The first thing is all about Arthur being liberated and feeling free. I will never forget when he stood up on that police car, painting on his smile and for the first time really standing upright and like he was proud of himself.
Exactly. Thats why the second one hurts so bad. It totally ruins the first film
Lady GaGa was WASTED in this wtf she deserves better than what she was given here. The movie did have GREAT moments just like Grace said and the only reason I went to see this was for GaGa. I also love Harley Quinn and thought we were gonna get an amazing take but instead all we got was a tease.
And he didn't call him a loser...he called him a fantasy. He showed Arthur as the hero. This was not really about JOKER. It was about ARTHUR FLECK.
First Movie: The man that society has created. Second Movie: The unreachable standards society places on you.
I just saw it and I haven’t been this bored in a long, long time. It’s not a character study, it’s not effective social commentary, it’s not a legal drama, it’s just a lot of nothing.
There was definitely a more thought provoking way to critique figure-head worship and serial killer fangirls…this wasn’t it.
just here to say that sunset is a gorgeous background
When will the Mad Love story reach our cinema screens instead of the cutting room floor lol? It seems like Joker and Harley are cursed to always get their Mad Love arc cut from movies.
As BTT’s feature Dune head, I’m gonna say it’s okay to like Paul during his early years when he frees the Fremen and takes down the Empire, but the irony of him becoming a tyrant himself gives the series such depth, and allows the audience to realize the Bene Gesserit weren’t all that wrong in trying to stop/control Paul.
Harley killing Joker would’ve been a significantly better ending, tbh.
That would have been garbage
That would have been worse
Broooo, that’s what I’m saying
no, nothing wouldve made this crap better lol
Hell no lol. Super predictable too
Bro gave Joker the Luke Skywalker treatment that Disney gave Luke in TLJ hahahahah 😆
He put a chick in it (Gaga) and made it lame (reverting Joker to Arthur) and gay (straight men generally don't like musicals in 2024).
Why do they keep doing that I wonder? White guilt?
😅
If they had done a 90 minute court room movie WITHOUT any singing, it would have been a lot better. The scene where he cross examined Gary Puddles was really well done.
That was the most poignant scene of this sequel. He also had the best scene of the first movie, when he was locked in the apartment after Joker killed the other clown.
Several people walked out at my showing. About the music, I’d rather them writing all new songs specifically to fit the story of this movie alone rather than covers because I feel the songs are out of place.
Yeah, that could have been a really interesting approach to a sequel, giving real insight into the characters mental state. When I first heard it was a "juke-box musical" months ago I knew it was a bad sign of things to come.
Or just do a few dream sequences and that's it. No real life singing.
I think about 4 people walked out of my theatre
Segwaying songs into speaking dialogs is an artform reserved for musical directors and creators. I wonder who they hired or didn't hire for this task. It could've worked, the music selections were great byt it was so so clunky to the point of distraction.
I kinda dug it. Arthur was a guy who thought that he could only find love by being the Joker, but he had a friend who loved him because he was nice
@@HelterSkeltr832 I loved the movie.
We know gary loved him from the first movie give something new for God's sake
@@Quactroyeah that's true actually
I think Dune : Messiah won't suffer from the same problem based simply on the fact that the characters are very different. Paul is a product of a system meant to empower him to colonize/rule a planet/empire. He is the chosen one, and the only suffering he faces is due to the power he and his family possesses. The joker character is more or less the complete opposite, in that he suffers at the hand of a system meant to tear him and others in his class down. I would say seeing someone in power being corrupted and then torn down is rather cathartic to a wide audience, which is why Paul's downfall won't be an issue (I think).
also the director can say he staying true to the book. And dune strike the same itch as Joker did. So don't see the fans being mad when they make switch. Also it was hints of Paul going a bit nuts at the end of the last one
You dont want dune the musical? 🤓
I thought Arthur's "change" was clearly presented in the movie. First it was when he was kinda moved/teary eyed by Gary's testimony. Then his breaking point, when he got SAd by the guards, then the guards accidentally k*lled that teenage inmate who was close to him, because of his influence as Joker (the chant they were doing earlier which got some of the inmates in trouble). That was when he took responsibility, after he saw the effect his Joker persona has on other people.
The animated opening sequence sets it all.
It's funny that Grace is exactly the character of Lee. She wants Joker to represent something she thinks. For Lee, once he rejected the persona, she abandoned him. For Grace, once the movie stop agreeing with her opinions, she jumped ship.
Spot on!
This was one of the movies I was actually going to see in a movie theater, but after hearing it's a slap in the face to the fans and a character assassination I hope they lose millions.
I don’t think the movie is good But it is not a character assassination nor a slap in the face to fans. I loved the first one even on rewatches. This one just loses the plot.
@@ikexbankai it is both literally and figuratively a character assassination of the joker.
Our Guy Fawkes night celebrates his defeat and not being able to blow up parliament. It's bonfire night where they burn effigies of him. Sounds bonkers when i write it down but so normal to us lol
"I've never heard anyone call Guy Fawkes toxic" 🤦🤦🤦 This is such a bad take. It's like saying "I've never heard anyone call Bin Laden toxic" The guy was literally a 17th Century terrorist. He's not a freedom fighter or a folk hero. He tried to destroy a government building and kill the heads of government. People celebrate that he failed and was caught and executed for his crimes
Yh like the whole Fawkes point is the opposite. You couldn’t get a more reviled legacy holiday tradition 😂
@Atlasss97 yup he goes on the bonfire whilst kids roast marshmallows lol!
I fail to see how Joker's fans flipping the FIRE DEPARTMENT is powerful. All they want is violence and anarchy, they don't offer any change or alternative, they just want to see the world burn. They're villains.
Did I just see 3 different split personalities just all trying to come out of you at once Grace lol @7:30 😭
Let this be a lesson that 11 minute standing ovations mean nothing.
Difference is the first two are already hinting at Paul’s descent, especially with the final shot of Chani. The building blocks are there. Phillips just has no understanding of his toy box
Also the fact that Dune is using an existing story in a different media, whereas Joker is using an iconic character but placing him in a unique interpretation where the writers had free reign to go anywhere they liked. There is a strict set of promises in a novel adaptation. There is a lot more freedom when just borrowing a character.
I saw this film as a study in madness. Not a superhero movie. A study in madness, narcissism, psychopathy, manipulation and desolation of our society. Music is our only succor. I enjoyed this movie in spite of the directors true intentions (what ever they may be).
Here’s my take, because I feel like Arthur at the end of the first movie when he says “You wouldn’t get it”:
Joker Folie à Deux offers a necessary corrective to the first film’s unintended glorification of Arthur Fleck, a mentally ill man, who, in the wake of the original, became a “literally me” icon. Where the first movie saw Fleck propped up as a symbol of rebellion and misunderstood genius, Joker Folie à Deux works hard to emphasize the reality of his mental illness, illustrating that his journey should not be celebrated but deeply pitied.
Through the character of Harley Quinn, the film makes a sharp critique of those who see themselves in Fleck’s Joker persona. Harley embodies the toxic mindset of those who latch onto the Joker’s superficial image without acknowledging the brokenness beneath. Her affection is not for the man himself but for the myth he represents-a fitting metaphor for the audiences who idolize figures like Joker, Walter White, or Homelander, confusing their chaos for strength. The film portrays these “literally me” types as often privileged and removed from the real struggles of mental illness, which Arthur exemplifies. The difference between Arthur’s true pain and their imagined one is stark-Arthur’s trauma is real, and their identification is hollow.
The film’s narrative, I believe, condemns the celebration of broken characters, highlighting how dangerous it is to glorify people like Arthur. It suggests that had Arthur remained grounded, rejecting the fantasy of the Joker persona, he may have had a chance at redemption. But by buying into the conditional love of Harley (and, by extension, the toxic adoration of those who idolize him), he ensures his own downfall. The musical elements in the film heighten this point, serving as a metaphor for the fantasy world in which Joker exists-where he’s celebrated, even loved, for his violence. When Arthur finally stops singing by the film’s conclusion, it represents his rejection of that fantasy, an acceptance of the reality of who he is-a broken, mortal man, not someone to be mythologized or worshipped.
In its controversial final scene, Joker Folie à Deux reminds us that Arthur Fleck, for all his inner turmoil, is still human. His legend can be dismantled, and ultimately, he can be torn down like anyone else. This film calls for an end to the unhealthy glorification of characters like him, urging us to see the pain behind the mask, rather than celebrating the mask itself.
Creators need to stop trying to micro manage their audience perception of their work. There seems to be a narcissistic streak in creators this last decade, who are incensed by audience glorification of characters they wanted them to hate and not getting their vision, then coming back and writing sequels that seek to pull those characters down from the pedestal their portrayal placed them on.
Audience buy into the fantasy and those that love the joke make memes of it in social media. But people get it. The Joker is not a hero. The audience knows this, they are just having fun with the fantasy of it all. Creators then become angry because they think the emotional reaction the audience is portraying on social media is not what it should be. So then they come to hate the audience and the character and seek to force the perception they want. Neil Druckman did the same thing to his character Joel in the Last of Us, with his sequel.
Thank you for the thoughtful summary. Nobody wanted to see any growth or change in Arthur/joker character
Damn you are preaching !
@@omarholder9036100% agree with this.
No, chill out and do better@@omarholder9036
I agreed with you on so many things, everyone wanted to see joker in full throttle mode on this. The first one did such a good job building up for that. And it really felt like todd philips changed his mind. He did initially say he had no plans for a sequel so he shouldve kept it that way instead of ruining the legacy and wasting lady gaga’s potential to be an awesome harley quinn
Full throttle murdering people?
I found the movie endlessly fascinating if you look at it as a complete delusional fantasy in Arthur's mind. Everyone is able to understand that the musical sequences are part of Arthur's delusion but i think Harley is also a delusion. She is his Tyler Durden à la Fight Club. She manages to have a lighter in a prison. No one seems to notice her get up and burn the room down. She magically appears in his cell to apply his make up. She is allowed to enter the courtroom late and no one bats an eye. With each court scene she slowly gets to sit closer and closer and her make up evolves as Joker seems to crawl out of Arthur's psyche. It's even said by his lawyer that Arthur makes up imaginary relationships with women. I dont think Harley is real. She is another split in his personality that is there to pull Joker out of him. I think this is just the story of a sad insane man who was rotting away in his cell coming up with a dream world made of delusions of grandeur. The amount of nonsensical actions that were allowed (can Joker really represent himself in clown make up and not be considered out of order? Can he really just easily escape from a courthouse). Just my theory.
I don't care how creative or lucky you are... You need some boundaries! Even Nolan and Scorsese need an opposing force to create greatness.
Paul demise have a narrative purpose, a very powerful one imo.
Remember when everyone was saying that joker 2 will be the superior R rated comic book film of 2024...How the tables have turned lol
P.S while Todd made an award nominee film, Dennis is a better more experienced director, I have more faith in him with dune
So much positive anticipation, but why weren't people up-in-arms months ago when it was revealed to be a musical? Because they got Lady Gaga as Harley?
If you think Dune Messiah should be doing anything other than tearing down the idea of Paul Artreides as a hero, you clearly have no clue what the story is about. Dune 2 already laid the ground work for this to happen. “People seem to like him”. That’s the point. Jesus
Also it’s all in the execution. Todd Phillips isnt Denis Villeneuve.
This movie really made me appreciate Nolan as a DC director.
Nolan brought the artistic flair of an interesting artist, but NEVER looked down on his movie audience OR the material he was making. Even when people didn’t love Dark Knight Rises, he stayed commendably above the fray.
Todd drank his own cool aid and thought he could lecture his audience, that’s SO condescending and misses the point of the first movie.
what i dont understand is that why do studios greenlight production like this or the last jedi, cant they see how damaging this to their intellectual properties? i cant believe they (studio executives) did not see this trainwreck coming
Harley idolized joker because he actually did the things she thought of and wanted to do she sees the joker as her spirit animal. The scene where she tells him she was watching th Murray and she thought he should kill this guy abd then you did she said i thouht that was brilliant
Imagine if The Joker got arrested after the first film and a crazed fan Harley Quinn runs into the cop car and helps Arthur escape. He then meets a bunch of mentally disturbed people that want to be led by him. He then starts to attack the elite using Joker look alikes. Todd could have went so many places with this.
But if he's now the 1%, he wouldn't want to be a class-traitor, would he?
That would have been a much better plot than this trash.
That would be horrible
When arthur told gaga to stop singing my whole cinema yelled “YES”
Can't forgive they cut her "that's entertainment" musical breakup scene on the stairs! I was so looking forward to it! it looked so cool in filming footage and that's why she kept singing bits of it throughout the film to lead up to a belter of a song at the end
For the record, it actually common for an artist to become successful with a particular I.P. then become resentful with that I.P. and its fanbase and lash out with new art
Examples
Hideaki Anno - end of evangelion
Christopher Nolan - Dark knight Rises
Ridley Scott - Prometheus
Grace a lot of the things you talked about I actually wrote about in my applications to film graduate programs so this makes me feel I’m on the right track :)
Fingers crossed for your applications!
Thanks Grace! I knew I wasn’t going to watch this but I’m happy to watch you discuss it.
They gave Todd Phillips carte blanche but he didn't have a Scorsese film to copy so he just did whatever along with the studio probably interfering.
see Network.
There’s plenty to copy! Have him be a crime boss like Goodfellas going nuts and pushing too many powerful people or rule the city like Bill the Butcher in Gangs of NY. Or even Shutter Island where he can’t tell what’s real or not but of course still tries to burn the city down.
Todd Phillips ripped off king of comedy for joker 1, and Chicago and Dennis potter's pennies from heaven for joker 2, he's a plagerist.
"I thought the guards *liked* Arthur!"
I reflexively yelled "WHAT?!" and almost spit out my drink, lmao
the fact that Gaga is only in 25 minutes of the film…awful
Well, Thanos had 28 minutes of screentime in Infinity War and no one complained.
Wouldn’t have changed anything for the film it’s called joker not joker and Harley
And she was pretty much in the film longer than just 25 min
@@shubhangbahadur7112 LMAO! Did Thanos win a Oscar for it or something? They are both comic book movies sure but they are not the same. I doubt Gaga will win an Oscar but Thanos doesn't deliver what Harley could've deliver. It's like comparing Gal Gadot and Angela Bassett.
For 7 million dollars to like wtf?
The movie was great! I went with below expectations but it was awesome
i disagree; the first was not a masterpiece and this sequel was a step above the first one and surprisingly goes hand in hand with it. the Joker is merely a symbol, all Arthur Fleck wanted was to do comedy. enough with the cinematic universe banter. but it seems comic book themed movies are meant to be nothing more than cinematic universes given the moviegoing displeasure.
You ask, "What changed?" when arthur ran from his joker followers. I'd like to think it was Gary Puddles and his confession of claiming arthur 'was the only one good to him'. for the nightmare to end he had to renounce the joker persona. look what it was leading to! they blew up the courthouse!
I really didn’t think that i would be a defender of this film, but i think that this film was really clear of the theme of the ‘Joker’ not being a powerful persona to uptake. Arthur doesn’t want to perform for people, even in the first film, he just wants to be normal and feel like he is understood. He doesn’t want to be a clown that tears himself down for others amusement, and I think that Lee is absolutely the type of audience that the film does a good job criticising. The people that wanted to see Joker in his full glory don’t realise that being the Joker looks fun, but it isn’t actually fun for the person who is being pushed to their mental limits to get there. Like the Sorpranos, I think this is a good deconstruction of how we want to have figures that cause destruction so we can latch on to their anger, so we don’t want to give them what they actually need, which is rehabilitation and empathy for their own health. Arthur is a bit of a loser, which is how he got so down in the first place, and him being Joker isn’t liberation, it’s illness and his absolute lowest point! It’s a good addition to the trend of deconstructing the villains our hero’s fight, and making them less of a 2d evil, and making them sympathetic humans that need help.
When you say screw you to the fans they will say screw you back, Disney and others found this out the hard way, this film will flop
I just got back from the cinema and I LOVED IT the song where great I kind of wanted him to either be killed by his fans or by Harley. Lee killing Artur was foreshadowed, they should have stick to the plan
I've just watched the movie at home (I wouldn't spend money on a ticket after the awful reviews) and it's pretty clear what happened: Todd Phillips just wanted to make an awful movie on purpose so he wouldn't have to continue making future DC movies. I only wonder how no Warner Bros. executive saw Todd's plan of completely imploding the Joker franchise during filming 😂😂
Ur saying this as if he can’t decline wanting to film another joker film 😆 if he didn’t want to make a joker 3 he could’ve simply said no
He’s not locked to Warner bros they don’t have a gun to his head
@@KEDARUNIVERSE but he created the first one and... Thinking about... It's kinda iconic that since he doesn't wanna continue making Joker movies, he just imploded the character with this one so no other director can continue what he started 🤣🤣
@@WellingtonOliveira_well_author that’s my whole point if he didn’t want to make another joker he simply wouldn’t. Have just cause he made the first one doesn’t mean he’s instantly locked onto the franchise plenty of films have had different directors take on for them
@@WellingtonOliveira_well_authoryou’re definitely conflating multiple things, but I’m positive we will see another joker on screen in our lifetimes 😅
OMG THAT ENDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Grace this might be your best review ever. And I do not say that lightly! Your breakdown is so insightful and accurate. You've done a phenomenal job with this one. Truly.
5.5 out of 10 movie to me . i loved to see this review with Spoilers , Grace
I love how you think about narrative. Some very compelling points you raised. If only we got a film of that quality.
Okay ppl, this movie wasn’t half as bad as you made it up to be. I enjoyed it as an elseworld story
Well, Dune Messiah case is a bit different, Denis would have the cushion/airbag to soften the blow, if there ends up any, with the source material, the books. Also, the book fans already know the story of Paul, if there would be any blow it would be from general audience and also then the narrative would be that's how it played out in books. If Denis tries to go in other direction then there is mostly uphill for both types of audiences. With Joker, that's not the case, This Joker is not based on any arc of Joker from comics except superfluously adapting Trial of Joker and Harley-Joker & Dent basic story elements from comics.
With Dune Messiah for Paul, it's a full arc. With Joker 2, it's undoing and backtracking the growth and arc of Joker.
That is on point - guards also turned on him. Todd P. Wanted to show that the joker was gone from Arthur after closing remarks. But it did not feel like that.
I'm capable of separating art from reality. I loved the first Joker. Disappointed the sequel didn't deliver.
@7:07 to be fair, in the UK Guy Fawkes Night is celebrating him getting caught before he could blow up Parliament, not that he tried, it started out as an official holiday and people still burn effigies of him
The Joker doesn't work without Batman. This movie rather proves that with everything it says about who Arthur Fleck really was.
Imo the joker operates at a large scale too. He's a chaotic mastermind who can tango with Batman.
He isn't Travis Bryant or Freddie Quell from 'The Master'. This awards bait restraint just doesn't fit the character.
They could have done an adaptation of Mad Love (the graphic novel) and nerds would have eaten it up with a spoon. I really think the problem is Phillips.
This lady gets crazier with every Review .
I did not mind the musical part. I minded the waste of Harley, the waste of that story, the waste of an ending. Nothing ends up being satisfying about it story wise.
Comics might not infantilize readers but comic books films and genre films like Star Wars absolutely do.
The musical numbers should’ve echoed that liberated feeling which Arthur felt in the end of the first film. The scene where he looks up to the sky and the guards umbrellas changes into colours was a sign of that. He’s liberated so he sees the world as a colourful party. I think they should’ve had a dance number with the guards swirling around the umbrellas and stomping around the puddles just like Singin in the Rain. That’s the sort of musical numbers the film should’ve had and already had the groundwork for.
Also imagine if Arthur was retelling the first film to Lee as the monologue montage from La La Land and with an original song. It could’ve been so spectacular!!
I feel the lawyer was actually the only one that wanted he to survived but she didn’t consider how he was hurting him at this presentation
Knowing all these things, i felt bad for the character more and now understand why people or the fans of the first movie are feeling bad about the sequel.
Really enjoyed the review Grace!
With regards to Joker 2, I *wish* they would have tied Lee to the other inmate who attacks Arthur in the final scenes. I would have had Lee working alongside the fellow inmate, both showing disdain in a private conversation for Arthur who has hidden his 'true self' while being incarcerated. Lee and the inmate could have plotted to help Arthur become Joker once again, with them both being utterly disappointed with his stance in the final courtroom scenes when he turns his back on the Joker persona. It would have tied everything together. It could also help allude to the inmate being the 'real' joker by also having a pre-existing relationship with Lee.
The movie didnt need a sequel which is the problem. Its the same with Archie Bunker or Vegeta. You arent supposed to like them. Yet that's the problem like Engineer from Prometheus seeing humans or even Dune main character in the books.
Just came back from watching it, and Honestly I absolutely loved it. I personally don't get what a lot of people are on about. I think it is just as good as the first. And I just don't think people understood the movie, and some people are starting to show that they didn't really understand the first one either. 😅😅
A friend of mine who had watched the movie before me, said that I would hate the movie and that is dogshit. And I have realised they completely missed the point of the movie. Everything My friend had a problem with, made me realise they like Harley Quinn, they are all those people that wanted Arthur to be the Joker again. 😂😂
It's insane that a movie can spell out what it is trying to say and some people still completely miss it. 😂
I'm tired of people like Todd Phillips and Rian Johnson, I want them to go away and stop ruining things that people love
Dont forget What M Night Shyamalan did Glass as well.
He should have actually escaped the first time with Quin. A change of location & action would have helped. The musical numbers were cringe.
The difference though is dune messiah explains what people didn't get in the first book, paul was always meant to be the bad guy of the story. I feel Denis, adapted that well in dune part 2, his arc didn't feel like a heroic one in that film, it felt like he did make an effort to make the audience feel the darkness that was consuming paul. So I think dune messiah should follow on with that, and it'll be ok.
I mean was paul a bad person though. Honesly based on what happens later the worst thing paul did was falter on golden path because of grief
So was he saying that the Atreides who believed in honor, loyalty and concern for the common man were bad? While the Emperor who took the side of the barbaric, but rich and powerful Harkonnen to destroy a popular House was good? Or Harkonnen's ruthlessness ("greed is good") is the way to go? Or Paul should have just died or stepped aside and let them have their way on Dune and in the galaxy?
In the movie _El Cid_ Charleton Heston's titular character tries to be an honorable knight and King's Champion, serving the crown and working to the benefit of all citizens of Spain, even Moors. But because he can't do that, it's implied that he should have realized those he served were corrupt and he should have seized the throne. Likewise the story of Joan of Arc (there were two movies in 1999) suggests she should have seized the throne rather than be loyal to the coward, the Dauphin, who did nothing when part of France was occupied and had her executed in the end.
You guys joker2 was amazing
I don’t get how someone liked joker1 come to hate joker2
It’s really its extensive story
And where...is the Batman?
.
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WARNING! SPOILER BELOW...
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He's at home, washing his tights! 🤣
Hah hah hah...Where does he get those wonderful...tights? 😅
@@CheezpopcornBatman does the questioning not us 😭
Wow, I am completely new to your channel - it is very commendable how you have set up an entire presentation for your review, and your passion is very clear! Great review!
Joker 2 sounds like a pass. Another one bites the dust. It’s gotten so easy to just walk away.
Also, such a beautiful sunset in the background. Gorgeous. You should film more of your reviews around sunset. 🌞
Missed opportunity to say "What the Fleck happened?"😂
I think your review does a good job of explaining that the non musical scenes were the best because we get to know more about joker.
Only reason I would say for others to see this movie is because of the acting its really outstanding but other than that the plot is straight wack and has so many plot holes that make no sense at all definitely won’t rewatch this for another few years
Grace, i have to say, the tops that you have been wearing lately are amazing and compliment you so well!
This dismantling and tearing apart of Joker/Arthur actually reminds me so much of how the House of the Dragon writers handled Daemon in S2. Especially after admitting to being so confused and put off by all the love he got in S1.
I see no relation, he was just lost in S2, but he was coherent with his flaws in S1.
@@manantial773 One of Daemon's core strengths is that he is a competent leader of men. Not only is he great at rally men to his cause but also at leading them. He is known and respected for this. In the books, he conquers the Riverlands and raises the army for Rhaenyra with ease, like two minutes tops. Yet the showrunners had him bumbling through shit like an utter idiot for the entire season, being humbled and dragged by Alys, and then at the end, humiliated by a literal child who then hands him the army.
I’m coming back here in 10 years to see how much Grace (and many here) missed the whole point of Joker 2… one of the best films of the year 😆
I saw the movie today knowing only a few things; 1. There would be musical elements 2. It's a follow up to Joker 3. Reviews aren't great. I left the theatre feeling completely satisfied. I know I'm in the minority but I really enjoyed this movie. It was an excellent continuation and I don't understand the critiques, especially from people who say they loved the first movie.
I hate the idea that people might think that a director encourage these ideas by exploring them in a movie... it's a commentary on the system, on how society viewed mental health at the time, etc... The viewers aren't dumb... We all watched the first movie with an understanding & maybe with some degree of empathy, but that degree of empathy isn't dangerous.
Grace is glowing in that New York sunset, I do hope the red lip is here to stay!
I watched both movies as JOKER not THE JOKER. And both movies as AN origin story not THE origin story. I have found both confronting, compelling, elegant and out of the box. I put this latest one together with Dancer in the dark. Where the music moments are simply opening a bracket of fantasy in a very dark life, without having to soar the Hollywood way.
Good call mentioning Dancer In The Dark. Very similar dark and miserable vibes and ultimately heartbreaking.