Love these type of videos. Matthias is probably the only RUclipsr I've ever seen that you can count on for an honest take while doing a sponsored video.
Interesting, meticulous (as usual). Not sure “open it up” is quite what the sponsor expected, but it surely exposes a clever approach to safety. Thanks for the video.
I'm sure the sponsor watching this fell out of their chair and when they got back up they exclaimed: He did WHAT!? LOL Good for you Matthias for doing that, I think you sold this product more than just give it an endorsement... you demonstrated something that I wasn't aware of, but makes sense the way you explained it! I presently don't need a space heater, but I'll get one of those for sure!
That is a really good approach to this complicated subject. Basically it's just some simple differential equations, but as there are so many parameters, it is not easy to model a certain room.
It’s nice to see this effect documented so meticulously! I’d noticed in the past that space heaters seem to spend much more time running when you first turn them on, even after the room is up to the target temperature. Once the walls and furniture reach equilibrium, the space heater will finally reach its steady state.
I love videos like this. I have questions like this all the time and seeing somebody work through a method for sampling and dealing with the data is always super cool.
I understood so little of this - but loved it all. My goal is now to learn enough to come back to this video in the future and be able to say ‘oh I get it now’. :)
Amazing experiment! I have heaters like the old ones, and my brother bought one with the "ceramic element", as they say... Much more efficient, thou there is one aspect to them that is not at all related to the quality of their production, just a issue wit our everyday lifes: He asked me if i could investigate why it wasn't blowing air correctly, he thought that the fan failed... Happens that he have a cat... And i ended up taking ot a "blanket" of entangled cat hair that accumulated in the air stream in front of the heater... But it protected itself very well, and after cleanig, came back to work with full purpose!
It would be interesting to redo the shed measurements with a sheet of insulation taped over the single pane window and maybe an inch or two on all sides of it to cover the frame too. That R value of 1 on 3 square feet is obviously having some effect on temperature retention.
As per the ad, ceramics have really interesting thermal/electric properties. I had a little cube heater that was all metal, insulating ceramics, and ceramic heating elements. If you ran it with no fan(3-position switch) the elements would get get red hot, and cycle like a toaster oven. In that mode it was like having a little fireplace just to keep your hands warm.
Very interesting! At the moment I am monitoring the temperature of corners compared to straigt walls. I found up to 4 °C difference in corners when it is very cold outside. This leads to condensation and mould. Now I am building a resistor wire heater which heats the corner to room temperature with 10 W power.
The speed of the temperature change, also depends on the % air humidity. It would be interesting to measure this parameter too and see how it does impact.
omg i use that 70s paneling for the exact same thing lol. I tore it out of my basement and i was amazed at how much the temp dropped considering it was only panelling and a vapour barrier.
Tape up all the seams to prevent drag and see if that has any effect. Measuring air water content inside the shed while person is inside would be interesting project. As long as you have less than 60RH you dont have any molds growing. Some insulation materials dont allow water vapor to pass through.
Your calculations are good the leakage is non-linear, but the thermal resistance parameters are a linear approximation. It makes calculations faster and easier. This makes a big difference for the foams. Plastics have a termal conductivity that depends on the temperature. The temperature resistance is greater at higher temperatures because the temperature expands the molecules and the spaces between the atoms are larger.
11:00 nice testing, goes well with expectations. however, the main tip for fast heating, is to have heater near the person and not much air movement that may come from outside the room or windows. building material mass wouldn't matter much except difference in density, less dense, more air, better insulator.
Interesting, enjoyable, fun, and thought provoking. I think a very minor amount of the temperature was measuring the solid object while the others were purely air temperature. The bright blue window title bars reminded me of the primary blue colored titlebars in the default Windows ME and Vista themes. I think it had primary red and green mixed in too that has aged poorly. Definitely developed a preference for the sharp looking gradient title bars from NT/2K.
A friend had a room burnt by his dog knocking over an old space heater. After we rebuilt the room and got a space heater with all the safeties, the dog pushed newspaper in front of the heater to burn it down again.
@@seanfrank6032 nah the real solution is don't use space heaters. They're not safe unless they work like this, but even then there's always a high risk of fire.
Just a couple of general notes for the readers:2 As you perform the measurements while you are out if the room, you can trust the heater power readings. If you are also in, you need to add something like 100 W (at low activity and more, if you exercise). The time constants are another issue. Your graphs did not settle to steady state at the high end before turning off. You may have taken that into account, or not? The math is very easy, if the temperature is let to stabilize and more convoluted, if you use only a portion of the possible temperature range. Otherwise, nice work!
Howdy. Nice. May I suggest an investigation in Your shack with the walls covered inside with aluminium foil. Theoretically the foil would throw back the infrared and warm the furniture faster. Regards.
It would be cool to run the test with a ceiling fan with winter mode on, that should drop ceiling and raise floor temperatures and make them more similar.
It would be interesting to see how much thermal gain you are getting in the shed on a sunny day vs a cloudy day. The window should prove to give more gain than expected from the sun too. Also fastening the sensor to the calling in the bedroom vs about two inches below should be interesting. I couldn't tell from the video, but if the sensor is touching the ceilling, it would seem your data would change as it changes temp. You didn't say what was below the bedroom floor. Part of the curve for the floor sensor could have just been from its thermal mass. If something like your shop is below it, and you are heating that the curve for the floor would change from the wood floor, and the space below. Tons of cheap sensors are lots of fun. Thanks for doing the stuff we don't have time to do.
Wonder how the temperature senors would respond adjusted laterally away from the heater. Now you will have to buy more sensors and raspberry pis to grid the whole shed. 🙂
I'm curious what the curves would look like with radiant floor heating. I wonder if blowing down or up would be the best setting for a ceiling fan to mix the air and minimize the vertical temperature gradient.
I recently got a CO₂ sensor, and the ventilation that you would want is scary if you also want a somewhat warm room. Of course, warming and cooling without a source in the room (you) is not very interesting, but you'd be surprised how quickly the CO₂ concentration rises with just one person in a room that size (~37 m³ in my case).
Wait, why do you have a CO2 sensor? Humans have a very effective CO2 sensor built in, as do most other creatures. It's the main way we protect ourselves from suffocation, since we can't detect oxygen innately.
@@LeesChannel Borrow one and go sit in a room with it. You'll be surprised how high the concentration gets before you'll notice it. And as CO₂ is a good measure for the recirculation in a room, it is also a decent proxy to prevent covid infections.
@Maarten Sneep It may make sense in an office setting for automatic ventilation, or maybe a prison or a mine, but I don't need an external sensor to verify my own comfort. We have many redundant failsafes to protect from carbon dioxide poisoning, this is a primal function of virtually all animal life, more essential than seeking food and water. Even non-sentient life can regulate carbon dioxide. There is no greater or more urgent panic you will feel than dangerous levels of carbon dioxide, and even if it happens suddenly when you are deep asleep you will wake up heaving and smash your window or run out the door. Conversely, the reason why you feel comfortable with somewhat elevated levels of carbon dioxide is because of how effective the body is at carbon dioxide regulation, both externally and internally (acidtosis.)
I know it would vary a lot depending on the sun shining on the shed, but since you know the thermal efficiency of the insulation and have this data, could you predict with accuracy how much the temperature will drop inside the shed if you put a certain weight hot object inside it? Like a 5 gallon bucket of warm sand or rocks?
How loud is the sponsored heater? I've switched to radiant quartz heaters because of noise. It seems that most forced air heaters are designed without any consideration of noise.
Meinen Sie es wäre möglich, einen Raumluftwäscher selbst zu bauen? Ein Ventilator der Raumluft anzieht und diese auf eine sich drehende Walze bläst, die an der Unterseite in einem Wasserbad steht?
So it would be pretty simple for the manufacturer to add an adaptive mode where the heater senses the incoming air temperature and calculates the power level required to stay on 100% of the time.
What would the wattage of the fan be? 4 watts? I couldn't read the label, but I don't know if that would have affected the "failure state" wattage or not.
Do you think ceiling fans might make sense in the winter? I usually think of them as something for summer use. But they could de-stratify the air in the winter, too, I guess.
Agreed, I'd love to experiment with a very slow moving one that didn't create much draft, (since moving air makes us feel cold), but just barely enough to mix the air, or destratisfy as you said.
*"The man"'* sure has a lifelong engineering addiction ...and as to career...he get's to see his kids + rachel has a career 2 + look at subscriber numbers
Me pregunto si en vez de cortar el termostato cada vez que llega a la temperatura óptima y luego volver a encender cuando se enfría la habitación, no sería más eficiente si el calefactor simplemente calentara menos para mantener la temperatura.
I wonder how much an engineer would charge the maker of the heater to do such an indepth analysis. I'm betting it would exceed the retail cost of the heater.
Love these type of videos. Matthias is probably the only RUclipsr I've ever seen that you can count on for an honest take while doing a sponsored video.
Electroboom
electroboom has one on heaters too, his is similarly honest, imo.
Woodworking... Naw
Chaotic Thermodynamics... Yes please!
You're a mad genius in the best kind of way.
i'm a little embarrassed at how much i like videos like this. not sure why engineers have a craving for data... but we do!
I would say they picked the right guy to sponsor. I have now watched 2 videos on a tower fan and 1 on a heater.
Interesting, meticulous (as usual). Not sure “open it up” is quite what the sponsor expected, but it surely exposes a clever approach to safety. Thanks for the video.
I'm sure the sponsor watching this fell out of their chair and when they got back up they exclaimed: He did WHAT!? LOL Good for you Matthias for doing that, I think you sold this product more than just give it an endorsement... you demonstrated something that I wasn't aware of, but makes sense the way you explained it! I presently don't need a space heater, but I'll get one of those for sure!
If they approached Matthias they should have known what to expect from other content.
@@belg4mit You mean, “the unexpected.”
I think he stated that "Open it Up" was a requirement or he wouldn't take the sponsorship in other videos.
That is a really good approach to this complicated subject. Basically it's just some simple differential equations, but as there are so many parameters, it is not easy to model a certain room.
Great video, if this is your version of sponsored content then keep it up because its fantastic and very consumer friendly.
It’s nice to see this effect documented so meticulously! I’d noticed in the past that space heaters seem to spend much more time running when you first turn them on, even after the room is up to the target temperature. Once the walls and furniture reach equilibrium, the space heater will finally reach its steady state.
It’s a very nice product because I always have concerns about leaving my space heater on during the night.
I love videos like this. I have questions like this all the time and seeing somebody work through a method for sampling and dealing with the data is always super cool.
This is the stuff that my brain always wonders but my time doesn't allow me to explore. Thank you!
I understood so little of this - but loved it all. My goal is now to learn enough to come back to this video in the future and be able to say ‘oh I get it now’. :)
I would trust my life with this guy
Amazing experiment! I have heaters like the old ones, and my brother bought one with the "ceramic element", as they say... Much more efficient, thou there is one aspect to them that is not at all related to the quality of their production, just a issue wit our everyday lifes: He asked me if i could investigate why it wasn't blowing air correctly, he thought that the fan failed... Happens that he have a cat... And i ended up taking ot a "blanket" of entangled cat hair that accumulated in the air stream in front of the heater... But it protected itself very well, and after cleanig, came back to work with full purpose!
It would be interesting to redo the shed measurements with a sheet of insulation taped over the single pane window and maybe an inch or two on all sides of it to cover the frame too. That R value of 1 on 3 square feet is obviously having some effect on temperature retention.
yes this
@@jzvetter Aaaaand weatherstrip the dooooooor
Yep, just a few strips of tape can make quite the difference.
As per the ad, ceramics have really interesting thermal/electric properties.
I had a little cube heater that was all metal, insulating ceramics, and ceramic heating elements. If you ran it with no fan(3-position switch) the elements would get get red hot, and cycle like a toaster oven. In that mode it was like having a little fireplace just to keep your hands warm.
You did a great job selling their design. Good video
I thought the shed was meant for the kids to play in, not you :-)
great engineering and great personality ;-)
Mathias - I'm going to build a shed in the yard
Rachel - Cool what should we put in it?
Mathias - Science!!
Very interesting!
At the moment I am monitoring the temperature of corners compared to straigt walls. I found up to 4 °C difference in corners when it is very cold outside. This leads to condensation and mould.
Now I am building a resistor wire heater which heats the corner to room temperature with 10 W power.
Pretty interesting experiments indeed, Matthias! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
The speed of the temperature change, also depends on the % air humidity. It would be interesting to measure this parameter too and see how it does impact.
I understood everything you said ! You are an excellent popularizer. Thanks
omg i use that 70s paneling for the exact same thing lol. I tore it out of my basement and i was amazed at how much the temp dropped considering it was only panelling and a vapour barrier.
informational advertising which I watched to the end. Keep him busy Dreo. Put a silent PC fan in there next.
Thanks Matthias ... great food for thought!
And since hot air rise's, I use a slow revolving ceiling fan to keep the air moving around the room.
This is the kind of science at home that I love too
Very good video! I really like this kinds of experiments.
Very interesting! Thanks for that Ingenieurs-content 🙂👍🏼
This was fun! You'll never get another heater sponsor ha!
I enjoy these things that you do. There is no other place on RUclips that I can see this kind of science. Thank you
Tape up all the seams to prevent drag and see if that has any effect.
Measuring air water content inside the shed while person is inside would be interesting project.
As long as you have less than 60RH you dont have any molds growing.
Some insulation materials dont allow water vapor to pass through.
Very cool, i would be great to have such model for houses so which some cheap temp senors you can reverse engineer the R -Value
Nice video! Would be interesting to see how a circulator, blowing air from the floor up, would affect the evenness of the heating.
Your calculations are good the leakage is non-linear, but the thermal resistance parameters are a linear approximation. It makes calculations faster and easier. This makes a big difference for the foams. Plastics have a termal conductivity that depends on the temperature. The temperature resistance is greater at higher temperatures because the temperature expands the molecules and the spaces between the atoms are larger.
yes, and convective and IR heat transfer increases with temperature. All very approximate.
11:00 nice testing, goes well with expectations. however, the main tip for fast heating, is to have heater near the person and not much air movement that may come from outside the room or windows. building material mass wouldn't matter much except difference in density, less dense, more air, better insulator.
Interesting, enjoyable, fun, and thought provoking. I think a very minor amount of the temperature was measuring the solid object while the others were purely air temperature.
The bright blue window title bars reminded me of the primary blue colored titlebars in the default Windows ME and Vista themes. I think it had primary red and green mixed in too that has aged poorly. Definitely developed a preference for the sharp looking gradient title bars from NT/2K.
Entropy, she is a fickle beast!
Matthias' next big youtube project: designing and building a passivehaus certified home for his family to move into
This makes me realize I really need to brush up on my thermodynamics...
a running desktop computer is also a small space heater :D
A friend had a room burnt by his dog knocking over an old space heater. After we rebuilt the room and got a space heater with all the safeties, the dog pushed newspaper in front of the heater to burn it down again.
Sounds like they need a new dog rather than a new space heater lol
@@seanfrank6032 nah the real solution is don't use space heaters. They're not safe unless they work like this, but even then there's always a high risk of fire.
Extremely detailed stuff - but I must admit that I prefer watching manic mice!
Just a couple of general notes for the readers:2
As you perform the measurements while you are out if the room, you can trust the heater power readings. If you are also in, you need to add something like 100 W (at low activity and more, if you exercise). The time constants are another issue. Your graphs did not settle to steady state at the high end before turning off. You may have taken that into account, or not? The math is very easy, if the temperature is let to stabilize and more convoluted, if you use only a portion of the possible temperature range. Otherwise, nice work!
An ACH50 value would add an interesting element to your calculations.
Howdy. Nice.
May I suggest an investigation in Your shack with the walls covered inside with aluminium foil. Theoretically the foil would throw back the infrared and warm the furniture faster.
Regards.
I'd like to know how space blankets along walls affect the room temps
Top of the room
Out the cracks in the door,
Then the glass window
Then the walls of the roof
It would be cool to run the test with a ceiling fan with winter mode on, that should drop ceiling and raise floor temperatures and make them more similar.
It would be interesting to see how much thermal gain you are getting in the shed on a sunny day vs a cloudy day. The window should prove to give more gain than expected from the sun too.
Also fastening the sensor to the calling in the bedroom vs about two inches below should be interesting. I couldn't tell from the video, but if the sensor is touching the ceilling, it would seem your data would change as it changes temp.
You didn't say what was below the bedroom floor. Part of the curve for the floor sensor could have just been from its thermal mass. If something like your shop is below it, and you are heating that the curve for the floor would change from the wood floor, and the space below.
Tons of cheap sensors are lots of fun.
Thanks for doing the stuff we don't have time to do.
I would love to see Matthias' version of the construction adhesive vs thermal grease experiment from @John Heisz-Speakers and Audio Projects
Wonder how the temperature senors would respond adjusted laterally away from the heater. Now you will have to buy more sensors and raspberry pis to grid the whole shed. 🙂
I wonder about the baseboard heaters vs the space heater
dr.wandel lectures you will not find in any textbooks
I'm curious what the curves would look like with radiant floor heating.
I wonder if blowing down or up would be the best setting for a ceiling fan to mix the air and minimize the vertical temperature gradient.
God help us all if he turns evil.
What a nice thumbnail!
Go see if you can get sponsored by a maker of weather-stripping & gap-sealers now! I want to see just how much good they do.
I actually really liked the piece of wood for measuring temperature.
Where abouts in Canada do you live? Not a creeper, just a curious dude from Houston, TX that misses the cold when I lived in Calgary.
I recently got a CO₂ sensor, and the ventilation that you would want is scary if you also want a somewhat warm room. Of course, warming and cooling without a source in the room (you) is not very interesting, but you'd be surprised how quickly the CO₂ concentration rises with just one person in a room that size (~37 m³ in my case).
Just get some lithium hydroxide canisters.... :D
Wait, why do you have a CO2 sensor? Humans have a very effective CO2 sensor built in, as do most other creatures. It's the main way we protect ourselves from suffocation, since we can't detect oxygen innately.
@@LeesChannel Borrow one and go sit in a room with it. You'll be surprised how high the concentration gets before you'll notice it. And as CO₂ is a good measure for the recirculation in a room, it is also a decent proxy to prevent covid infections.
@Maarten Sneep It may make sense in an office setting for automatic ventilation, or maybe a prison or a mine, but I don't need an external sensor to verify my own comfort. We have many redundant failsafes to protect from carbon dioxide poisoning, this is a primal function of virtually all animal life, more essential than seeking food and water. Even non-sentient life can regulate carbon dioxide. There is no greater or more urgent panic you will feel than dangerous levels of carbon dioxide, and even if it happens suddenly when you are deep asleep you will wake up heaving and smash your window or run out the door. Conversely, the reason why you feel comfortable with somewhat elevated levels of carbon dioxide is because of how effective the body is at carbon dioxide regulation, both externally and internally (acidtosis.)
I know it would vary a lot depending on the sun shining on the shed, but since you know the thermal efficiency of the insulation and have this data, could you predict with accuracy how much the temperature will drop inside the shed if you put a certain weight hot object inside it? Like a 5 gallon bucket of warm sand or rocks?
Which sensors are you using? Are you recommending any?
are you going to cover the walls with wood?
Get the space heater using this link: woodgears.ca/dr/sh
Promotional discount code, valid to Nov 15 2022: 9RP733E2X9Z0
The consequences will be to isolate much more better floor, door and window. Afterwards repeat all measurements.
How loud is the sponsored heater? I've switched to radiant quartz heaters because of noise. It seems that most forced air heaters are designed without any consideration of noise.
Now do it with a ceiling fan
Meinen Sie es wäre möglich, einen Raumluftwäscher selbst zu bauen? Ein Ventilator der Raumluft anzieht und diese auf eine sich drehende Walze bläst, die an der Unterseite in einem Wasserbad steht?
I guess when the math teacher preached about needing complicated math, they were right!
Another experiment?? Ha ha ha(
This is amazing. Next video: RUclips - I shrunk my kids.
I have subscribed and rung your bell and your website doesn't appear in my notifications.
So it would be pretty simple for the manufacturer to add an adaptive mode where the heater senses the incoming air temperature and calculates the power level required to stay on 100% of the time.
A PID heater would be cool but I don't think anyone running to Rona to pick up a heater would care enough
What would the wattage of the fan be? 4 watts? I couldn't read the label, but I don't know if that would have affected the "failure state" wattage or not.
Do you think ceiling fans might make sense in the winter? I usually think of them as something for summer use. But they could de-stratify the air in the winter, too, I guess.
Agreed, I'd love to experiment with a very slow moving one that didn't create much draft, (since moving air makes us feel cold), but just barely enough to mix the air, or destratisfy as you said.
@@CraigsWorkshop Most ceiling fans have a winter (reverse rotation) mode.
What about humidity ? Does that affect it ?
Yes, indeed.
It doesn't, but it does affect the dew point which your skin can pick up on.
What types of sensors did you use?
18b20
He says purple line, but I see a pink line.
Get a Flir camera for your cellphone, like me, another Matt.
This man may miss his career as an engineer.
Hahaha
He left his job as engineer (of some kind) long time ago.
Can't tell if joking.
*"The man"'* sure has a lifelong engineering addiction ...and as to career...he get's to see his kids + rachel has a career 2 + look at subscriber numbers
This is his career as an engineer. He has talked about being an EMPLOYEE, and it sounds like he doesn't miss that.
So now we have proof that wood paneling really does make a room feel warmer?
I wish you had checked the ceramic elements with an IR temperature sensor.
Mine can't do spot readings that small
Me pregunto si en vez de cortar el termostato cada vez que llega a la temperatura óptima y luego volver a encender cuando se enfría la habitación, no sería más eficiente si el calefactor simplemente calentara menos para mantener la temperatura.
It look like they use standard pc fan, which means if you upgrade that fan, you should get better thermal and noise performance. Maybe Noctua fan? Jk
Technically its end up on my electric bill after it fly though black hole in my wallet, but I still like explanation in this video
I want a sensor in my buttcheeks to see what happens when I fart and during different types of emotions.
I wonder how much an engineer would charge the maker of the heater to do such an indepth analysis. I'm betting it would exceed the retail cost of the heater.
Entropy
Somehow I now feel smarter and dumber.
p♥r♥o♥m♥o♥s♥m
*puts heater on top of PC* ~cries in binary~