Hey what's up, thanks for sharing the video. I've been seeing a lot of your videos pop up lately and love the content so subscribed to you as well. The more we learn the better. Looking forward to your upcoming flying videos. Peace!
Kudos to you for being so honest and transparent. I know nothing about landing an aircraft but you were immediately on top of it, if I had been watching with the sound off I wouldn’t have even realised there’d been an issue 😄 All the best ✌️
Dude, I did that while going around in my student cross country. Thankfully, I recognized the stall and recovered immediately. In a high density altitude environment, I could've lost my life.
I saw this video on his page. I said the exact same thing to him as well. It’s always great when other aviation RUclipsrs are humbly transparent in some of the things that they experience, so that we can all learn and become better pilots. Thank you for re-sharing this very important lesson. Peace!
"The forever student" I love that, as someone who stands by the concept of the Beginners Mind. That is perfect. Never think you have the full and complete answer, or that you're fully informed. There's always room to grow and achieve a greater understanding.
Another way to think about the flap settings on go around. It's basically a takeoff scenario. Take out one notch of flaps if you're full. Get a lot of air under the wings and establish positive climb. Take out another notch when clear of trees and obstacles. Then take the last notch out as you reach the end of the green arc.
From what I saw he had good judgment, he went full power and pushed the nose down, had rapid application of the correction and identified what went wrong. Pilots at all levels make mistakes, there was a 777 from emirates that initiated a go around and didn’t put power in- and did the penguin roll down the runway
Great video! I learned on Cessna's that ranged from 30 - 40 degree of max flaps. The older ('65 - '67 models) Cessna were placarded against slips with 40 degrees of flaps. 30 degrees was permissible and something we trained to. 40 degree slips were NEVER done. The newer Cessna's that only had 30 degrees of flap, we practiced slips from 0 - 30 degrees . I did learn this exact lesson, as a student, when my instructor said "Go around" and a few seconds later "Start bringing your flaps up." I went from 20 degrees to flaps fully up and the plane settled. Luckily she was ahead of the airplane and as the plane settled, we still had room to safely clear the tree line at the end of the runway. Scared me! A lesson I've NEVER forgotten.
We have all had these close calls. I landed with my CFI on a small, narrow and short airport with trees on both ends in Napa Valley. I swear the runway was 15 feet wide. We did a touch and go, and suddenly we were barely skimming over tree tops to the point I was almost picking pine branches out of the struts and gear. Afterwards I looked at the airport information plate, and sure enough, it said touch and go landings were not permitted, precisely for that reason. I asked my CFI if he knew, and he asked me if I knew. Neither one of us did. Learned that day, always always always look up the airport you will be landing at. There is a lot of information there that could easily save your life. Everyone gets these close calls, and hopefully learns from them without ending up on Pilot Debrief...
Did the same thing on go around with my instructor. For a few moments we both held our breath until the airplane regained positive rate. I was taught no slips or excessive banking with full flaps.
I did that during initial training. Losing that lift and being behind the curve feels terrible, but normally you only do it once and then you always remember that sinking feeling.
LOVE your content! I’m a better aviator watching your channel. I’m flying to a high density altitude airport (L35) in a couple weeks. I’m doing so much studying and research for this flight. Thx for what you do. Posting our mistakes is GIVING BACK TO THE AVIATION COMMUNITY!
So many guys have been killed when they lose the engine and come in hot to lousy terrain and eat it. Full flaps and slip and you come down faster but roll out slower. It’s for when you don’t expect to go around. If you have to go around use ground effect to gain safe airspeed.
We slipped with full flaps in Cherokees all the time in my training. Slipping is fun. But you must always push the nose down in a slip. No exceptions. The airspeed indicator is not accurate in a slip. I don’t usually slip in the 172 that I fly because the 40 degrees of flaps are basically barn doors and you have to push the nose way down to maintain enough airspeed. Because of this, I don’t find slips necessary. Side note that I’m only a private pilot and not a CFI. Consult the POH and an instructor for actual instruction and information on slips.
I also did this on a go-around (instrument student but my first go around in a C172; PPL training and go arounds were in PA-28-151) and we sunk almost down to ground effect before we started climbing.
I fly Piper Warriors and slip with full flaps. I've heard you can't slip high wing aircraft with full flaps because it disrupts airflow over the horizontal stabilizer which could cause your tail to stall and cause you to nose down rapidly. This is just another reason I like low-wing aircraft, because for me it makes sense to use a slip when you've already pulled power/put in flaps and you still need more drag.
*This is not flight instruction* 5C’s Cram: Full power Climb: Initiate a climb Clean: Flaps immediately to 20° (or whatever your planes requires, this is for my plane) Cool: Carb heat off Call: Call tower or CTAF for a go around
I'm not sure about slips anymore. My first instructor advised it's the last thing you do to get lower after all other options are exhausted - i.e. power is already at idle, flaps are extended, but you're still above the glideslope and want to descend steeper without pointing the nose down / gaining airspeed... so that's when to slip. But much later on in my training (and with another instructor and plane), saw that the flaps were placarded with a note saying to avoid slips with flaps extended. Sooo... I don't know. I've definitely done slips with stuff out, and it didn't feel like there was any loss of control, but if the manufacturer says it's a bad idea it gives me pause. Where I get confused is why you would opt to do a slip in a clean config instead of just extending flaps to achieve the same result. Only thing I can think of is that you want to get airspeed back up again when coming out of the slip, sooo... not landing then.
The point of a slip is that you can quickly lose altitude without increasing airspeed. We use flaps to make steeper approaches without increasing airspeed, so without the flaps extended, your airspeed would be way too high on approach, so you have to do a slip.
Not a CFI, but generally the wording is “avoid slips with full flaps”, which to me is much different that “slips with full flaps are prohibited”. Have had many CFIs instruct me to slip with full flaps, and I have slipped with 30 degrees in 152s/172s dozens and dozens of times on my own. I did some reading on this when I bought my own plane and Cessna indicated there could be some buffeting of the H-stab when slipping with full flaps, causing some decrease in elevator authority (if memory serves correctly). My opinion, be cautious like always, but if you need to get down, I won’t hesitate to slip with 30 deg…
Flying mostly C172 now, I just follow the POH: no slide with more than 10°. POH prevails over any other pilot experience imo. Looks like he is at KVNY - Van Nuys
I've always been trained to do slips with full flaps, always. The whole point is to sink like a rock and become a massive wind sail. Slips are almost always safe.
I always train my students how to slip. I'm just extra cautious with new students because they tend to get slow, nervous and hesitant which is a bad place to be with a new student in a slip. If taught properly; they are an amazing tool that is not taught enough these days.
It depends on the C172 model, but early models (pre-1972) would exhibit a pumping motion on the elevator due to upwash form the aileron and downwash from the flap hitting the elevator. It's benign, but if you have never experienced it before then you might interpret it as an impending stall close to the ground. I would recommend trying it at altitude for the first time.
Every time you make a mistake and something bad doesn't happen, you unfortunately learn to accept the mistake as tolerated or normal -- normalization of deviance. When something bad finally happens, you are given the opportunity to learn that the mistake is not always tolerated, and whatever methods you are using that allow for that mistake to happen is inadequate for all situations. Often the most dangerous things are things that usually don't cause a problem, but the loss of discipline invites opportunity for future failures. Gear up landings are a classic example that nothing bad happens as long as you get the gear done before landing, but if you don't have a system to ensure that you always do it, then you will get task saturated one day and you will have an accident. In 2012, Dr. William Knecht published a FAA report on accidents and their relationship to total flight hours. For the previous decade, the average fatal accident pilot without an instrument rating had on average 400 flight hours. And pilots with instrument ratings, the average was 1200 flight hours. The peak of the distribution was around 150 hours for non-instrument rated and 500 hours for instrument rated pilots.
I prefer to do slips without flaps . im not a CFI but my instructor told me never to slip with flaps because the laminar flow on the airfoil will cause the vertical stabilizer to be very ineffective because the flaps are redirecting the airflow downward .
I had a student or two do this to me as well. Definitely necessary to hammer in those missed approach/GA flows so that when the time comes, it's second nature. As an instructor in a 135 op, missed approach errors are probably the most common errors we see!
@@CFIIMunden Oh yeah, I nailed every maneuver on the checkride, and he had me do a no flap slip to land, as we were coming back to the airport. Luckily I had practiced those several times with my CFI, so I knew exactly what to do. One has to be ready for any surprise, given how much discretion the DPEs have 😂.
If my memory serves me correct, older 172 that have 40 degree flaps say that full flap slips are prohibited. The new 172 with only 30 degree flaps do not have this restriction. I know I have slipped 172 with 30 degree flaps many times and it makes a nice steep stable approach with no control issues.
@@skyboy1956 If you are saying there is no full flap limitation for the older 172s, you would be incorrect. Just looked it up in a 172 F POH and it specifically states that slips are prohibited in full flap approaches because of downward pitch en-countered under certain combinations of airspeed and sideslip angle. (page 2-9 under landings)
@@kevinbaslee3262 Careful with your acronyms. 172F does not have POH, it has an "Owners Manual" the difference is important as the latter has no regulatory reference. The original Owners Manual reflected information from the TCDS when the airplane was built. The TCDS is a living, regulatory document that is constantly amended. The Owners Manual is not. Current TCDS for the 172F states a placard is required near the flap switch that says: "Avoid slips with flaps extended." If for some reason that placard is not installed, or does not have that exact language, the airplane is illegal to fly. Yes, they are out there. You are correct the original "prohibition" was due to a possible pitch down under certain conditions. However, anyone familiar the plane can easily check this pitch down motion with elevator, maintaining complete control. Thus, the change to a "caution" note. BTW, the "L" and later model 172's with a long dorsal fin apparently ended that phenomena.
Slipping with 30 degress imo is fine if you arent at full rudder deflection. If you need 30 degrees and full rudder, approach was scuffed from the start, go around and try again.
not sure about cessnas but we do slips in the piper with full flaps all the time, when needed ofc. Short approaches or poweroff 180s, comming up really high on final, or simulated engine out to land might call for it and I was taught to do with flaps in when needed
I flew an approach wihh sn instructor/ examiner in s 172 with 40 flaps set. I did slip. After landing he asked why I slipped it with 40 flaps. I said, "Because it is placarded 'NOT RECOMMENED', but not prohibited." He said, " well true, but you might want to avoid it." So diiferent 172's and what now may be a entirely prohibited as an airworthiness directive. I don't know. What I DID notice while doing thst more than a few times, was an elevator osscilation. So yeah, prolly best to avoid, but in that case it was not a prohibition. Most 172s I flew, save tgat one had 30 flaps, not 40.
Since I always use full flaps on all landings regardless of wind (if strong crosswind, I angle across from downwind corner to upwind thousand foot stripe), I have used full rudder to the floor slip with full flaps. B model 172 said avoid, but they all fly the same. The nose wanders up and down slowly but the airspeed does not change. Pilots, especially of B models, generally suspect LOC. When I showed this feature to many on bi-annual, they were amazed at the calmness of the technique. I have used it for real life in a several engine failures from low altitude crop dusting and patrolling pipelines. Since we have zoom reserve airspeed, we can make whatever is in the very near hemisphere in front of the wing. I found myself high and fast to most and had to use full side slip with the full flaps to make the beginning of the landing zone.
I was in a similar situation, but perhaps not nearly as bad. In my case it was a conscious decision. DA40 with full flaps, night vfr approach with my instructor. Approach became unstable near the ground and I didn't want to recover it, so I executed a go around. Even though I verified sufficient and increasing speed with a positive climb trend, my instructor got mad because I set TO/APR flaps too low to the ground. I suspect that came from two things... Really wanting to ensure a better climb, and because I have practiced too many airliner procedures on my sim where flaps get put up one level.
for me in my go-around proceedures i was taught full power > slight nose up > airspeed increase to 45 > reduce flaps 1 > wait for air speed to reach 66 > flaps 2 > airspeed to 80 flaps retracted , PA28 THO
Happened to me with passengers, gladly I wasn’t too low, was able to push nose down and gain speed then recover, but yes, definitely a very common deadly mistake.
Almost every time I have done a slip I have done it with flaps extended because I typically realize I am high when I'm on final and usually have my flaps extended on final. Maybe I should rethink my training.
@@smellyallen consult the POH about it. The POH Trump’s all. Also talk to your instructor. Slips if done right can be very advantageous. The problem becomes when students do not know how to do it properly.
@@CFIIMunden That's hard to do when I wrote it! Haha, technically my 'Vans' RV-14A is actually an Allen Thoe RV-14A. Been talking to my group of fellow builders and we all seem to be doing slips with flaps extended and the only consideration we have structurally is flaps extended under 100 kts, but slips are typically done at 80 kts.
Thank you for all of these instructional videos. Very mych appreciated. I'm scheduled to begin training for private pilot license this summer. What are your thoughts on using MS flight simulator while getting lessons? I've heard some instructors say students that were proficient with the simulator were much better students and better prepared. But I've also heard the opposite that it can hurt more than it helps. What is your opinion?
I feel like a broken record, in fact I think I've commented this on at least one of your videos before, but this is why I despise touch-and-go landings. There is no application for touch-and-go landings in regular practical flying, we do them solely for the purpose of saving/maximizing money spend which is counter to what we're taught everywhere else in aviation. But worse, they teach and reinforce techniques that can be easily confused with go-around techniques which includes the immediate full retraction of flaps like this. Off my soapbox, nice recovery by this pilot pushing the nose down once he started to lose lift so he could build airspeed.
Thanks and you hit the nail on the head with this comment because that's exactly what happened to me here. Several touch and gos in a row lead to the bad habit of retracting flaps all the way on the go around.
@@MarcusJFloyd I did the same thing during my training. Exact same thing. I felt so bad behind the power curve, but honestly it was great that it happened to me, because 12 years later I remember it each time I grab that flap lever.
This is great content and a great conversation. I do, however, think this is a product of students teaching students. There are a lot of statements in the comment section that I would love to address, and here are a few of them: First off, my comments should not be considered a replacement for proper flight instruction or practicing maneuvers at altitude. I have had the benefit of flying with a couple of the best flight instructors in existence, and well as living in an environment that allows me to try a lot of things safely. Always take baby steps, and take them in as controlled an environment as you can. Rule number one, fly the plane. Don't just run through a mental checklist of power, carb heat, flaps, and trim. Instead, fly the plane through the situation. Get the carb heat in, and start working the power in. Don't just firewall it. Make sure as you put the power in you feel the yoke pressure build. You may need to adjust the trim before you get the power all the way in, so as not to get overpowered. If you stop to adjust the trim, that may be a good time to take out some flaps. Then get the rest of the power in. At this point you should be level or climbing slightly and it should be easy to work out the rest of the flaps. Slips are very misunderstood. I have a Cessna 150E. The flaps will go to 40°. I have gone to 3,000' and slipped it hard at all flap settings. Nothing bad happened. I still probably wouldn't slip it hard with 40° of flaps close to the ground, but I doubt anything bad would happen. When in a slip, your airspeed indicator will be off a bit, but don't let your speed go up too much, or when you straighten and flare, you will float and defeat the purpose of the slip. Here's a question for everyone. If you put a 172, or similar, into a hard slip and then stall it, will it spin? Why? If you are a student, and you have not done any spins, the first thing I would say is why? How can you know if you are close to a spin if you have never done one? Ask your instructor how many spins they have done. If their number is less than 5 or 10, that should be a red flag. If they have done a bunch, then ask them to do spins with you. If you are a student, consider taking a break from regular lessons and take an introduction to aerobatics class. It will change your life and make you a completely different pilot. As a pilot, your goal should be to learn as much as you can. Fly Safe out there!
Hey Munden, do you think it's worth it to still pursue becoming a commercial airline pilot? Im working towards my PPL but im seeing so much stuff about SPOs (Single Pilot Ops) and how airbus is pushing for this and even NPOs (No Pilot Ops). Do you think we could see this in the near future (next 50-75 years?). I just dont want to spend all this time and money for a career that won't even be available by the time im eligibile to become a pilot.
Cram, climb, clean. I actually say it. That slows down your process and is calming in a way. As far as RUclips confessions don't just tell me what you did wrong. Tell me the factors that led to that situation. Tell me the ways you are going to prevent it next time. If there is no take away then you would have to ask was anything really learned. Instead of a "confession" make it a debrief. That is where the learning truly is.
i ahve a rule for myself flying the traumahawk, there is ONLY 2 places that i can retract or extend the flaps, on final for one runway, and on final for the opposite runway, i can NEVER retract or extend flaps over the runway. And about the slipping with flaps, its NEVER good to do slips with flaps, especially in a low wing (as all low wings i have flown say not to do slips with even 1 degree of flaps) also if im on an approach at an airport with a long runway, why use flaps? its like more dangerous, sure short field is good, but like why? if i have a faster plane behind me i might make them go around, save flaps for grass strips, and also, never use trim for landings or takeoffs, GUMPS should be GUMPTS (gear, undercarrage, mixture, props, TRIM zero, switches and gear lights green.
Don’t even get me started on Pilot Debrief, using dead pilots social media photos as Clickbait to drive up his views which often number into the millions. He’s just as sleazy as magazines in the grocery store checkout line. Yep, be careful or your photo could end up funding the next addition on Hoover‘s home. His reviews are great, but he’s still a scumbag in my humble opinion. We are all brothers in aviation and he’s outing our deceased for personal profit
Slip with 30 deg flap id do it. Apparently slip with flaps 40 causes buffet over the horizontal in the 172, might harm the elevator control linkages or something like that.
@@PenorBethith All "N" models are required to have a placard that says: "Avoid slips with flaps extended." The factory located that placard right on the flap switch faceplate at the bottom. "flaps extended" is any setting other than "0" I owned a 172N for about 8 yrs. Best light airplane ever. Slip with flaps 40 is pretty good descent. When I had a Cessna 120 with no flaps, I would slip the plane and stall it while in the slip. It would float down like being under a T-10 parachute canopy.
Something not entirely on topic. But don't sub to channels you don't intend to watch and support. If you get 30k subs but 30 people watch your videos the algorithm will think the content isn't good enough to keep subs coming bac it will nerf their videos getting recommended to people. Subbing to "show support" doesn't work anymore unfortunately.
The 172S POH says steep slips with 30deg flaps can cause slight elevator oscillation but that the airplane is still controllable and the oscillation is not dangerous. You can slip with 30deg flaps no problem.
@@xenadu02 yes the problem becomes when the student does the slip incorrectly and get slow and starts to induce a spin. They have to be taught correctly.
@@CFIIMunden Fair. When I enter a slip I always nose-down at the same time and err on the side of a little bit too much nose down since getting a little bit fast is not as bad as getting too slow. My comment was mostly about the fear that slipping at 30deg was prohibited or might damage the airplane so I went looking for the actual issue that caused Cessna to issue that guidance then revise it several times and it turned out to be the oscillation which was not harmful but apparently really scared some pilots (couldn't determine if it caused any of them to crash though).
All that hair is probably affecting weight and balance. Slipping with flaps depends on the airplane. In a Van's RV-4 slipping with full flaps works fine. Also VREF in the RV-4 is around 70 mph. Stall speed clean is 60, full flaps 54. Unless you are waaay slow retracting flaps should not cause a stall. It also takes time for the flaps to retract.
if you don't want interruptions, literally just watch the original video, man. did you expect him to just record himself watching the video without talking about it?
@@planning4burialNahhh that’s not what that person said, he is interrupting every 3 seconds and it most certainly does turn off ppl who want information. I even sometimes forget what he’s referring to.
I'm a student, my instructor made me slip at 30* degree flap today. I did not feel comfortable and did a go around... I think you shouldn't do it unless you're an experienced pilot.
The Vtail I own & fly would murder you if you retracted full flaps in a go around situation!! The flaps we have are huge!! Good to get all of that out-of-the-way before you step into complex high performance stuff. As a student or just a newer Pilot, I overshot final quite a bit. The wind would always carry me a little further luckily flying the Cherokee with those Hershey bar wings I was always pretty solid. But I can’t get away with that stuff anymore. Slipping with flaps full or not no biggie. Just keep that air speed up. Works out every time.
Hey what's up, thanks for sharing the video. I've been seeing a lot of your videos pop up lately and love the content so subscribed to you as well. The more we learn the better. Looking forward to your upcoming flying videos. Peace!
Kudos to you for being so honest and transparent. I know nothing about landing an aircraft but you were immediately on top of it, if I had been watching with the sound off I wouldn’t have even realised there’d been an issue 😄
All the best ✌️
@@MarcusJFloyd same with you Marcus !
Good on ya for posting the video, man. Fantastic attitude.
Thank you for helping the community.
Thanks for posting this. Safe skies!
Dude, I did that while going around in my student cross country. Thankfully, I recognized the stall and recovered immediately. In a high density altitude environment, I could've lost my life.
“Ended up on Pilot Debrief .” 🤣🤣🤣Wow that’s a scary fact he knows
I saw this video on his page. I said the exact same thing to him as well. It’s always great when other aviation RUclipsrs are humbly transparent in some of the things that they experience, so that we can all learn and become better pilots. Thank you for re-sharing this very important lesson. Peace!
Nothing but respect for him posting it for others to learn. Too many people are trapped inside their own ego.
Agreed !
"The forever student" I love that, as someone who stands by the concept of the Beginners Mind. That is perfect. Never think you have the full and complete answer, or that you're fully informed. There's always room to grow and achieve a greater understanding.
Another way to think about the flap settings on go around. It's basically a takeoff scenario. Take out one notch of flaps if you're full. Get a lot of air under the wings and establish positive climb. Take out another notch when clear of trees and obstacles. Then take the last notch out as you reach the end of the green arc.
I am haunted by the mistakes I got away with. They return to me like Scrooge’s ghosts and keep me humble.
From what I saw he had good judgment, he went full power and pushed the nose down, had rapid application of the correction and identified what went wrong. Pilots at all levels make mistakes, there was a 777 from emirates that initiated a go around and didn’t put power in- and did the penguin roll down the runway
Great video!
I learned on Cessna's that ranged from 30 - 40 degree of max flaps. The older ('65 - '67 models) Cessna were placarded against slips with 40 degrees of flaps. 30 degrees was permissible and something we trained to. 40 degree slips were NEVER done.
The newer Cessna's that only had 30 degrees of flap, we practiced slips from 0 - 30 degrees .
I did learn this exact lesson, as a student, when my instructor said "Go around" and a few seconds later "Start bringing your flaps up." I went from 20 degrees to flaps fully up and the plane settled. Luckily she was ahead of the airplane and as the plane settled, we still had room to safely clear the tree line at the end of the runway.
Scared me! A lesson I've NEVER forgotten.
We have all had these close calls. I landed with my CFI on a small, narrow and short airport with trees on both ends in Napa Valley. I swear the runway was 15 feet wide. We did a touch and go, and suddenly we were barely skimming over tree tops to the point I was almost picking pine branches out of the struts and gear.
Afterwards I looked at the airport information plate, and sure enough, it said touch and go landings were not permitted, precisely for that reason. I asked my CFI if he knew, and he asked me if I knew.
Neither one of us did. Learned that day, always always always look up the airport you will be landing at. There is a lot of information there that could easily save your life.
Everyone gets these close calls, and hopefully learns from them without ending up on Pilot Debrief...
I appreciate this videos as a private pilot/instrument student. Love watching CFIIs and their mindsets so I can adopt that when I’m a CFI.
Did the same thing on go around with my instructor. For a few moments we both held our breath until the airplane regained positive rate. I was taught no slips or excessive banking with full flaps.
I did that during initial training. Losing that lift and being behind the curve feels terrible, but normally you only do it once and then you always remember that sinking feeling.
LOVE your content! I’m a better aviator watching your channel. I’m flying to a high density altitude airport (L35) in a couple weeks. I’m doing so much studying and research for this flight. Thx for what you do.
Posting our mistakes is GIVING BACK TO THE AVIATION COMMUNITY!
Thank you so much I’m glad to have you here.
Big Bear? Take off and circle climb over the lake. At least that’s what old timers have told me to do in a pinch.
@ thx so much!
I thought to myself, a pilot can do 999 things right and 1 thing wrong, and BAM it's over.
So many guys have been killed when they lose the engine and come in hot to lousy terrain and eat it. Full flaps and slip and you come down faster but roll out slower. It’s for when you don’t expect to go around. If you have to go around use ground effect to gain safe airspeed.
Go around, add power, get established on speed, take one notch out, climb out and take the last notch out. Day one with my cfi in 2008. Miss you Ed!!
We slipped with full flaps in Cherokees all the time in my training. Slipping is fun. But you must always push the nose down in a slip. No exceptions. The airspeed indicator is not accurate in a slip. I don’t usually slip in the 172 that I fly because the 40 degrees of flaps are basically barn doors and you have to push the nose way down to maintain enough airspeed. Because of this, I don’t find slips necessary.
Side note that I’m only a private pilot and not a CFI. Consult the POH and an instructor for actual instruction and information on slips.
" The airspeed indicator is not accurate in a slip." - I hadn't thought of that (student pilot) - Thanks for the comment - makes perfect sense.
I also did this on a go-around (instrument student but my first go around in a C172; PPL training and go arounds were in PA-28-151) and we sunk almost down to ground effect before we started climbing.
I fly Piper Warriors and slip with full flaps. I've heard you can't slip high wing aircraft with full flaps because it disrupts airflow over the horizontal stabilizer which could cause your tail to stall and cause you to nose down rapidly. This is just another reason I like low-wing aircraft, because for me it makes sense to use a slip when you've already pulled power/put in flaps and you still need more drag.
*This is not flight instruction*
5C’s
Cram: Full power
Climb: Initiate a climb
Clean: Flaps immediately to 20° (or whatever your planes requires, this is for my plane)
Cool: Carb heat off
Call: Call tower or CTAF for a go around
I'm not sure about slips anymore. My first instructor advised it's the last thing you do to get lower after all other options are exhausted - i.e. power is already at idle, flaps are extended, but you're still above the glideslope and want to descend steeper without pointing the nose down / gaining airspeed... so that's when to slip.
But much later on in my training (and with another instructor and plane), saw that the flaps were placarded with a note saying to avoid slips with flaps extended. Sooo... I don't know.
I've definitely done slips with stuff out, and it didn't feel like there was any loss of control, but if the manufacturer says it's a bad idea it gives me pause.
Where I get confused is why you would opt to do a slip in a clean config instead of just extending flaps to achieve the same result. Only thing I can think of is that you want to get airspeed back up again when coming out of the slip, sooo... not landing then.
The point of a slip is that you can quickly lose altitude without increasing airspeed. We use flaps to make steeper approaches without increasing airspeed, so without the flaps extended, your airspeed would be way too high on approach, so you have to do a slip.
Standard technique in practically any aerobatic airplane as they are not equipped with flaps. Also increases forward visibility in them.
you're cooking with these vids man.
Not a CFI, but generally the wording is “avoid slips with full flaps”, which to me is much different that “slips with full flaps are prohibited”. Have had many CFIs instruct me to slip with full flaps, and I have slipped with 30 degrees in 152s/172s dozens and dozens of times on my own. I did some reading on this when I bought my own plane and Cessna indicated there could be some buffeting of the H-stab when slipping with full flaps, causing some decrease in elevator authority (if memory serves correctly). My opinion, be cautious like always, but if you need to get down, I won’t hesitate to slip with 30 deg…
Good luck on your AMEL checkride Munden! I did my checkride today and passed. Super fun training
Thank you! I’ll let you guys know how it goes.
Flying mostly C172 now, I just follow the POH: no slide with more than 10°. POH prevails over any other pilot experience imo.
Looks like he is at KVNY - Van Nuys
“Avoid slip with flaps down” is different than “slips with flaps are prohibited”.
I was always taught to retract flap in stages, really glad I was!
I've always been trained to do slips with full flaps, always. The whole point is to sink like a rock and become a massive wind sail. Slips are almost always safe.
I always train my students how to slip. I'm just extra cautious with new students because they tend to get slow, nervous and hesitant which is a bad place to be with a new student in a slip. If taught properly; they are an amazing tool that is not taught enough these days.
It depends on the C172 model, but early models (pre-1972) would exhibit a pumping motion on the elevator due to upwash form the aileron and downwash from the flap hitting the elevator. It's benign, but if you have never experienced it before then you might interpret it as an impending stall close to the ground. I would recommend trying it at altitude for the first time.
Every time you make a mistake and something bad doesn't happen, you unfortunately learn to accept the mistake as tolerated or normal -- normalization of deviance. When something bad finally happens, you are given the opportunity to learn that the mistake is not always tolerated, and whatever methods you are using that allow for that mistake to happen is inadequate for all situations.
Often the most dangerous things are things that usually don't cause a problem, but the loss of discipline invites opportunity for future failures. Gear up landings are a classic example that nothing bad happens as long as you get the gear done before landing, but if you don't have a system to ensure that you always do it, then you will get task saturated one day and you will have an accident.
In 2012, Dr. William Knecht published a FAA report on accidents and their relationship to total flight hours. For the previous decade, the average fatal accident pilot without an instrument rating had on average 400 flight hours. And pilots with instrument ratings, the average was 1200 flight hours. The peak of the distribution was around 150 hours for non-instrument rated and 500 hours for instrument rated pilots.
and for me i subconciously trained my hands touching the yoke not to move during a power on stall but rather use my legs to keep co-ordinated
I prefer to do slips without flaps . im not a CFI but my instructor told me never to slip with flaps because the laminar flow on the airfoil will cause the vertical stabilizer to be very ineffective because the flaps are redirecting the airflow downward .
I had a student or two do this to me as well. Definitely necessary to hammer in those missed approach/GA flows so that when the time comes, it's second nature. As an instructor in a 135 op, missed approach errors are probably the most common errors we see!
Great vid. Retract incrementally stick forward.. dont climb gain speed..feel it in the seat
Nice video. Congrats on 2k subscribers.
You should teach your students to land with no flaps, and every flap setting the plane has.
I do! It’s great to learn for them.
Of course, that is exactly what is done.
On my private pilot checkride, the DPE had me do a no - flaps slip to land.
@ you must’ve been doing pretty well if he is willing to throw a curveball at you like that. That’s awesome.
@@CFIIMunden Oh yeah, I nailed every maneuver on the checkride, and he had me do a no flap slip to land, as we were coming back to the airport. Luckily I had practiced those several times with my CFI, so I knew exactly what to do. One has to be ready for any surprise, given how much discretion the DPEs have 😂.
If my memory serves me correct, older 172 that have 40 degree flaps say that full flap slips are prohibited. The new 172 with only 30 degree flaps do not have this restriction. I know I have slipped 172 with 30 degree flaps many times and it makes a nice steep stable approach with no control issues.
no, no such prohibition.
@@skyboy1956 If you are saying there is no full flap limitation for the older 172s, you would be incorrect. Just looked it up in a 172 F POH and it specifically states that slips are prohibited in full flap approaches because of downward pitch en-countered under certain combinations of airspeed and sideslip angle. (page 2-9 under landings)
@@kevinbaslee3262 Careful with your acronyms. 172F does not have POH, it has an "Owners Manual" the difference is important as the latter has no regulatory reference.
The original Owners Manual reflected information from the TCDS when the airplane was built. The TCDS is a living, regulatory document that is constantly amended. The Owners Manual is not.
Current TCDS for the 172F states a placard is required near the flap switch that says: "Avoid slips with flaps extended." If for some reason that placard is not installed, or does not have that exact language, the airplane is illegal to fly. Yes, they are out there.
You are correct the original "prohibition" was due to a possible pitch down under certain conditions. However, anyone familiar the plane can easily check this pitch down motion with elevator, maintaining complete control. Thus, the change to a "caution" note.
BTW, the "L" and later model 172's with a long dorsal fin apparently ended that phenomena.
@@skyboy1956 You are correct.
IM SORRY ARE WE JUST GONNA AVOID THOSE 727s????
I can imagine in the Cessna, that extra bit of workload of timing the flaps since there's no detent on them adds more pressure during the go around.
Sipping with 30° of flaps in some models can cause Rotering over the horizontal stabilizer and causing the elevator to be ineffective
This one is freaky because I 100% could do this in the heat of the moment
My first time on your channel and I’ve learned something all ready in aviation and I’m in for the next video
We learn much more from mistakes, than where everything goes perfect.
Slipping with 30 degress imo is fine if you arent at full rudder deflection. If you need 30 degrees and full rudder, approach was scuffed from the start, go around and try again.
loving these videos!!!
not sure about cessnas but we do slips in the piper with full flaps all the time, when needed ofc. Short approaches or poweroff 180s, comming up really high on final, or simulated engine out to land might call for it and I was taught to do with flaps in when needed
I flew an approach wihh sn instructor/ examiner in s 172 with 40 flaps set. I did slip. After landing he asked why I slipped it with 40 flaps. I said, "Because it is placarded 'NOT RECOMMENED', but not prohibited." He said, " well true, but you might want to avoid it."
So diiferent 172's and what now may be a entirely prohibited as an airworthiness directive. I don't know.
What I DID notice while doing thst more than a few times, was an elevator osscilation. So yeah, prolly best to avoid, but in that case it was not a prohibition. Most 172s I flew, save tgat one had 30 flaps, not 40.
Since I always use full flaps on all landings regardless of wind (if strong crosswind, I angle across from downwind corner to upwind thousand foot stripe), I have used full rudder to the floor slip with full flaps. B model 172 said avoid, but they all fly the same. The nose wanders up and down slowly but the airspeed does not change. Pilots, especially of B models, generally suspect LOC. When I showed this feature to many on bi-annual, they were amazed at the calmness of the technique. I have used it for real life in a several engine failures from low altitude crop dusting and patrolling pipelines. Since we have zoom reserve airspeed, we can make whatever is in the very near hemisphere in front of the wing. I found myself high and fast to most and had to use full side slip with the full flaps to make the beginning of the landing zone.
I like retracting flaps at specific speeds. Like flaps 10 above 60knots and flap 0 at 65-70knots just a bit easier for me to keep track of
I was in a similar situation, but perhaps not nearly as bad. In my case it was a conscious decision. DA40 with full flaps, night vfr approach with my instructor. Approach became unstable near the ground and I didn't want to recover it, so I executed a go around. Even though I verified sufficient and increasing speed with a positive climb trend, my instructor got mad because I set TO/APR flaps too low to the ground. I suspect that came from two things... Really wanting to ensure a better climb, and because I have practiced too many airliner procedures on my sim where flaps get put up one level.
for me in my go-around proceedures i was taught full power > slight nose up > airspeed increase to 45 > reduce flaps 1 > wait for air speed to reach 66 > flaps 2 > airspeed to 80 flaps retracted , PA28 THO
We were always taught to retract flaps incrementally. We practiced and practiced until it became second nature
Happened to me with passengers, gladly I wasn’t too low, was able to push nose down and gain speed then recover, but yes, definitely a very common deadly mistake.
Almost every time I have done a slip I have done it with flaps extended because I typically realize I am high when I'm on final and usually have my flaps extended on final. Maybe I should rethink my training.
@@smellyallen consult the POH about it. The POH Trump’s all. Also talk to your instructor. Slips if done right can be very advantageous. The problem becomes when students do not know how to do it properly.
@@CFIIMunden That's hard to do when I wrote it! Haha, technically my 'Vans' RV-14A is actually an Allen Thoe RV-14A. Been talking to my group of fellow builders and we all seem to be doing slips with flaps extended and the only consideration we have structurally is flaps extended under 100 kts, but slips are typically done at 80 kts.
Why is slipping with 30* of flaps considered bad in certain aircraft
I WANNA FLYYYY AWAAAAYYY YEAAAAHH YEAHHHH YEAAHHHH
I do 40 degrees of flaps and forward slip in a C172N
Complete newbie here. So he went from full flaps to no flaps vs incrementally decreasing flaps?
Go-around in any airplane always is;
- 1 Thrust
- 2 Attitude
- 3 Flaps
Hey- that’s interesting; I’d say if you try to do a touch n go in a 172, flaps first, full power. I’m sure someone else will expand on rationale.
@@VancouverIslandExplorer-mv9yl what you are saying is correct. But you are talking about a touch and go, wich is diferent than a go-around.
Thank you for all of these instructional videos. Very mych appreciated. I'm scheduled to begin training for private pilot license this summer. What are your thoughts on using MS flight simulator while getting lessons? I've heard some instructors say students that were proficient with the simulator were much better students and better prepared. But I've also heard the opposite that it can hurt more than it helps. What is your opinion?
I feel like a broken record, in fact I think I've commented this on at least one of your videos before, but this is why I despise touch-and-go landings. There is no application for touch-and-go landings in regular practical flying, we do them solely for the purpose of saving/maximizing money spend which is counter to what we're taught everywhere else in aviation. But worse, they teach and reinforce techniques that can be easily confused with go-around techniques which includes the immediate full retraction of flaps like this.
Off my soapbox, nice recovery by this pilot pushing the nose down once he started to lose lift so he could build airspeed.
Thanks and you hit the nail on the head with this comment because that's exactly what happened to me here. Several touch and gos in a row lead to the bad habit of retracting flaps all the way on the go around.
@@MarcusJFloydit's the man in the video! 😂 👍🏼
@@MarcusJFloyd I did the same thing during my training. Exact same thing. I felt so bad behind the power curve, but honestly it was great that it happened to me, because 12 years later I remember it each time I grab that flap lever.
“That could get you killt” proof anyone can become a pilot 😂
Building the channel
11:11 that saying was from mzero aviation
Do you mind explaining in detail the danger of slipping with flaps?
Some aircraft don't like full flaps and slips because it disturbs the air and decreases elevator effectiveness.
I haven't flown a C172 in a while, but 60 kts. Is or at least wast the normal final speed, not short field speed. Why do you say that?
Great insight!
This is great content and a great conversation. I do, however, think this is a product of students teaching students. There are a lot of statements in the comment section that I would love to address, and here are a few of them:
First off, my comments should not be considered a replacement for proper flight instruction or practicing maneuvers at altitude. I have had the benefit of flying with a couple of the best flight instructors in existence, and well as living in an environment that allows me to try a lot of things safely. Always take baby steps, and take them in as controlled an environment as you can.
Rule number one, fly the plane. Don't just run through a mental checklist of power, carb heat, flaps, and trim. Instead, fly the plane through the situation. Get the carb heat in, and start working the power in. Don't just firewall it. Make sure as you put the power in you feel the yoke pressure build. You may need to adjust the trim before you get the power all the way in, so as not to get overpowered. If you stop to adjust the trim, that may be a good time to take out some flaps. Then get the rest of the power in. At this point you should be level or climbing slightly and it should be easy to work out the rest of the flaps.
Slips are very misunderstood. I have a Cessna 150E. The flaps will go to 40°. I have gone to 3,000' and slipped it hard at all flap settings. Nothing bad happened. I still probably wouldn't slip it hard with 40° of flaps close to the ground, but I doubt anything bad would happen.
When in a slip, your airspeed indicator will be off a bit, but don't let your speed go up too much, or when you straighten and flare, you will float and defeat the purpose of the slip.
Here's a question for everyone. If you put a 172, or similar, into a hard slip and then stall it, will it spin? Why?
If you are a student, and you have not done any spins, the first thing I would say is why? How can you know if you are close to a spin if you have never done one? Ask your instructor how many spins they have done. If their number is less than 5 or 10, that should be a red flag. If they have done a bunch, then ask them to do spins with you.
If you are a student, consider taking a break from regular lessons and take an introduction to aerobatics class. It will change your life and make you a completely different pilot. As a pilot, your goal should be to learn as much as you can.
Fly Safe out there!
What a valuable comment. This changed the way I viewed a few things. I need to get into an aerobatics class.
good and important vid!
Hey Munden, do you think it's worth it to still pursue becoming a commercial airline pilot? Im working towards my PPL but im seeing so much stuff about SPOs (Single Pilot Ops) and how airbus is pushing for this and even NPOs (No Pilot Ops). Do you think we could see this in the near future (next 50-75 years?). I just dont want to spend all this time and money for a career that won't even be available by the time im eligibile to become a pilot.
I don't even fly and I enjoy this content 😂
Cram, climb, clean. I actually say it. That slows down your process and is calming in a way. As far as RUclips confessions don't just tell me what you did wrong. Tell me the factors that led to that situation. Tell me the ways you are going to prevent it next time. If there is no take away then you would have to ask was anything really learned. Instead of a "confession" make it a debrief. That is where the learning truly is.
i ahve a rule for myself flying the traumahawk, there is ONLY 2 places that i can retract or extend the flaps, on final for one runway, and on final for the opposite runway, i can NEVER retract or extend flaps over the runway. And about the slipping with flaps, its NEVER good to do slips with flaps, especially in a low wing (as all low wings i have flown say not to do slips with even 1 degree of flaps) also if im on an approach at an airport with a long runway, why use flaps? its like more dangerous, sure short field is good, but like why? if i have a faster plane behind me i might make them go around, save flaps for grass strips, and also, never use trim for landings or takeoffs, GUMPS should be GUMPTS (gear, undercarrage, mixture, props, TRIM zero, switches and gear lights green.
How do you land in a crosswind if you don't slip with flaps extended?
@skyboy1956 you don't use flaps if you have wind
Why isn’t a go around procedure something that pilots learn?
They do. Go-arounds are a required pre-solo training requirement.
Don’t even get me started on Pilot Debrief, using dead pilots social media photos as Clickbait to drive up his views which often number into the millions. He’s just as sleazy as magazines in the grocery store checkout line. Yep, be careful or your photo could end up funding the next addition on Hoover‘s home. His reviews are great, but he’s still a scumbag in my humble opinion. We are all brothers in aviation and he’s outing our deceased for personal profit
I never made this mistake when I was in training, as I always related flaps with lift
Slip with 30 deg flap id do it. Apparently slip with flaps 40 causes buffet over the horizontal in the 172, might harm the elevator control linkages or something like that.
There is no prohibition against slipping any A thru N model of the 172 with full flaps.
@@skyboy1956 In a few N's I've flown there was a placard with key word 'avoid' slips with flap, but yes not prohibited. I liked to do it regardless :)
@@PenorBethith All "N" models are required to have a placard that says: "Avoid slips with flaps extended." The factory located that placard right on the flap switch faceplate at the bottom. "flaps extended" is any setting other than "0"
I owned a 172N for about 8 yrs. Best light airplane ever. Slip with flaps 40 is pretty good descent.
When I had a Cessna 120 with no flaps, I would slip the plane and stall it while in the slip. It would float down like being under a T-10 parachute canopy.
Something not entirely on topic. But don't sub to channels you don't intend to watch and support. If you get 30k subs but 30 people watch your videos the algorithm will think the content isn't good enough to keep subs coming bac it will nerf their videos getting recommended to people. Subbing to "show support" doesn't work anymore unfortunately.
The 172S POH says steep slips with 30deg flaps can cause slight elevator oscillation but that the airplane is still controllable and the oscillation is not dangerous.
You can slip with 30deg flaps no problem.
@@xenadu02 yes the problem becomes when the student does the slip incorrectly and get slow and starts to induce a spin. They have to be taught correctly.
@@CFIIMunden Fair. When I enter a slip I always nose-down at the same time and err on the side of a little bit too much nose down since getting a little bit fast is not as bad as getting too slow.
My comment was mostly about the fear that slipping at 30deg was prohibited or might damage the airplane so I went looking for the actual issue that caused Cessna to issue that guidance then revise it several times and it turned out to be the oscillation which was not harmful but apparently really scared some pilots (couldn't determine if it caused any of them to crash though).
All that hair is probably affecting weight and balance. Slipping with flaps depends on the airplane. In a Van's RV-4 slipping with full flaps works fine. Also VREF in the RV-4 is around 70 mph. Stall speed clean is 60, full flaps 54. Unless you are waaay slow retracting flaps should not cause a stall. It also takes time for the flaps to retract.
You talk and interrupt TOO MUCH! You disrespect viewers and this pilot. Some things are not about you dude.
Go somewhere else then...
if you don't want interruptions, literally just watch the original video, man. did you expect him to just record himself watching the video without talking about it?
@@planning4burialNahhh that’s not what that person said, he is interrupting every 3 seconds and it most certainly does turn off ppl who want information. I even sometimes forget what he’s referring to.
Keep on crying, this video is still here.
1000% agree, he interrupts wayyyy too much.
I'm a student, my instructor made me slip at 30* degree flap today. I did not feel comfortable and did a go around... I think you shouldn't do it unless you're an experienced pilot.
The Vtail I own & fly would murder you if you retracted full flaps in a go around situation!! The flaps we have are huge!! Good to get all of that out-of-the-way before you step into complex high performance stuff. As a student or just a newer Pilot, I overshot final quite a bit. The wind would always carry me a little further luckily flying the Cherokee with those Hershey bar wings I was always pretty solid. But I can’t get away with that stuff anymore. Slipping with flaps full or not no biggie. Just keep that air speed up. Works out every time.