Winlink Email P2P | Ham Radio for Preparedness
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- Опубликовано: 29 дек 2020
- Hello Operators
This is the second video in our Winlink Email series, Asynchronous Ham Radio for Preppers (or Ham Radio for Preparedness). In this episode, we will be making a Winlink Peer to peer P2P connection, without internet or any intermediate stations, to send and receive winlink email with another station (OH7T). Teme OH7T and I will be using Vara HF on 80 meters, to make an NVIS range P2P connection between our stations, 275.61 km (172.256 miles), bearing 135.9 degrees. Todays Winlink HF setup is Windows 10 running Winlink express with a Xiegu G90 and Vara HF.
Winlink email is a great and cost effective alternative to the sailmail email over HF Radio system.
In our previous video ( • Winlink Email P2P | Ha... ) using Winlink Email for asynchronous communications off grid, we demonstrated sending emails to people who may not be ham radio operators themselves. We do this while being completely off grid.
73
Julian #oh8stn #hamradio
Share Video URL: • Winlink Email P2P | Ha...
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Here's quite a few Winlink videos, If you are interested in this topic. WinLink Email Ham Radio EMCOMM & Preparedness: ruclips.net/p/PLKMrdrsNkFA7oYWyQUV39u4Olpk9trOuc
If you are interested in how the G90 was set up with winlink express, I wrote a blog post about it, earlier this month. Please have a look, It's a very interesting article.
oh8stn.org/blog/2020/12/14/xiegu-g90-winlink-express/
Thank you for leaving the "saved as wrong message type" in the video. Everyone who has used Winlink P2P on the air has done that more than once. It was probably the most common issue when doing ARES training in Winlink P2P.
The content is never boring and is very helpful. A friend and I watched and learned before attempting a P2P connection. We were successful after sorting out a small radio setting issue (self induced). Thanks and, keep the great information flowing!
Thank you for making this series, it is very informative, timely and you make it easy to understand. Please keep them coming, thank you.
I just got my hands on a SignaLink to play with packet on 2m/70cm. This was a great video about P2P connections.
Very very well done. Bob, W3GAC (RACES RO Talbott County, MD
Hey, nice tip on being able to open outbox messages and re-save them as a different type! 👍
Awesome ! Been waiting for this one.
Nice, I hope it is worth waiting for. Difficult topic to make visually exciting as well as informative, but lets see
Nice, I just setup Winlink this week and didn't even know it did P2P!
Great tool to have in your HAM tool kit. I used this to send email updates & pictures of our catches to our families while on a 16 day trip into the BWCA. We were 60 miles out from any civilization. This was before the days of the Garmin In-Reach Minis.....😉
Agreed. Need to give an honorary shoutout to @commsprepper for getting many of us started with winlink some years ago.
Thanks Julian! Nice demo of Vara's advantages for more reliable EMCOMM operations.
Great video, as always. I’ll have to give VARA a try.
Julian, as always, this was excellent. I did not know this type of communication was possible with ham radio. Julian, when you open your ham radio school for idiots, lol, I will be at the top of the enrollment list. Thanks for all the hard work and sharing you do and Thank You.
Robert
Very informative, thanks much. Getting my Winlink legs under me; after that I'll be working on HF, then QRP skills. Great channel; greatly appreciate it! 73, AF6SC
Justin, Ha! you did it! A follow on for P2P from your previous. Bravo Zulu!
We'll be using your videos on the subject to train operators to use Winlink in NorCal for disaster communications.
Happy New Year, be safe and be well.
N6MED
Excellent and very helpful!
As expected, another excellent video. Thanks.
Thanks for the kindness. I wish it were a more exciting topic. Your comment is much appreciated though :)
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Julian oh8stn
Always enjoy your vidz Julian. Shout out to Teme as well. He has been on our show too and vise versa, us on his show too.
Thanks Julian, and great timing! Some members of our local group had just begun talking about WInlink and how it all works, when "POOF" , like magic your videos on the subject appeared (I'd like to see a video about long distance mind reading to see how you did that 😁 )
Great video. Made the the same mistake with not selecting the peer to peer option myself. Very easy to do. Keep those videos coming. High quality content as usual.
Thanks. I hope the winlink dev team is watching. Not sure if there could be a better workflow. At least we can give better infor for operators Hi Hi.
Thanks for the kindness, much appreciated.
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Julian oh8stn
Thank you thank you. Must try NVIS P to P as my 80-10 endfed hits Australia and Antarctica with 200 mw on Whisper. As Ireland is sooo small.. it will go right over my buddies head.
Great video... well done, truly appreciate you taking the time and effort to teach this old dog New Tricks !
Albert
EI7II
How far is your buddy from you? NVIS antennas are generally as low as 1/8 wavelength high. A reflector will also help.
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Julian oh8stn
I forgot to add, 160, 80 meters, 60, 40 m are your NVIS bands.
@@OH8STN Julian.... thank you so much for that fast reply. I would say David is about 150-200 KM away from me. He will sooon be able to run anywhere between 5 to 1000 watts output... as his low power units he uses the ICOM 705 and the FT991A His antenna set up is ATAS 120A and Hamsticks for various bands but that will change by mid summer as he will either put up an Endfed 80-10 or a proper vertical.
In my case... I only have the Endfed 8-10 here, as my only HF Antenna,. But... I can lower it to down to 2-3 meters above the ground without any problems. 40 meters is my fav band... the SWR is very low there but even so... my 200 milliwatt zacktek xmitter still hit AUSTRALIA when only 3 meters above ground !!!!
Normally she slopes between 3.5 meters lowest (feed point) and 10 meters at the highest point. The antenna runs in a straight line as space here is no problem.
Thanks again Julian... at 77 years old by brain is slowing down !
Albert
No problem, I enjoy these type of chats. I would suggest separate antennas for local Communications. Perhaps an 80 m flat top dipole about 3 meters above ground for both stations. That'll get both of you hearing each other with relative ease.
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Julian oh8stn
Very usefull thanks. 73, Bas
Great video and explanation Julian. 73s
Thank you Steve. 🙏
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Julian oh8stn
Thank again Julian great video , and lots of info :)
You're very welcome Steve.
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Julian oh8stn
Was using it today. Have never been able to connect from the UK using winmor. Downloaded VAra HF just before Christmas and connected within minutes on the 817. PA3GJM seems to give me the most consistent connection from Dundee, Scotland. Looking forward to the video Julian de MM0XET
Outstanding news. Winmor was also the reason for my own earlier frustrations. Glad you stuck with it, and gave Vara a try.
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Julian oh8stn
Just like the pre internet days on HF. Use to be a very active HF data packet gateway before the internet was available. Over 20 years ago. This will be interesting. G4idx in Kent had a 24hr gateway for years. He was near Ashford.
Wow interesting. Was just getting started in ham radio as packet nodes were phasing out. With the state of the world these days, I think off grid data comms is coming to make a come back
Awesome video.
Thank you.
Looking forward to setting up some type of Windlink system myself for backpacking remote areas for extended periods of time. New to the hobby and this might be my ticket understanding the tools and software for making remote email connections while also being able to obtain important emergency transmissions (wildfire/weather).
Not a lot of good Winlink videos on the channel at the moment, but these are the ones I have.
ruclips.net/p/PLKMrdrsNkFA7oYWyQUV39u4Olpk9trOuc
Very weel done. I'm not current on Winlink. I did get lost when you stated "save the message" but I did not see that on the screen. Perhaps if the phrase matched what we see on the screen "Post to...". Again, your presentation quality, clear easy to understand audio. Thanks for preparing and sharing.
I think it's awesome to use email and amateur radio together without internet. I need to retake my tech and general license to play with this stuff. I plan on playing with qrp, pota, sota, cw, slowscan tv, chewing the rag, hf and winlink.
Excellent video. Do you have a video on the details and set up of the NVIS antenna you are using here?
Happy new year Julian! Stay safe and healthy in 2021. 73's de Uncle Günter
Thanks for the kindness and New Year's greetings. 2020 was a crazy year wasn't it!? I also hope you have a safe and healthy New Year.
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Julian oh8stn
@@OH8STN Oh yes, 2020 really sucked. I fully agree on that one. Me and my better half doing fine. She was COVID-19 positive as she works in a nursing home taking care of elderly people. She's back to normal again and did everything it took to make her survive. I didn't had any symptoms of Corona. I am a strong boy (old man) HI.
The Pandemic actually gave me gladly more time on my hands to talk on the Bands as I had before. Happy sunday into Finland. Thx for responding and caring. Hope we're gonna talk on air soon. Happy sunday & 73's
P2P would have been ideal for the PR Hurricane response. Thanks for the demo.
Agreed. Experienced off grid operators also.
i am coming late to the digital party.... thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Well the party's just getting started so you're just in time👍
@@OH8STN i have been working at this backwards... so to speak... HF rig and vertical up, g5 ready, 40m hwef with 49:1 unun, g90 go box almost completed and my Pi 4 hampi built...... just a tech license tho... running in learning mode but do not want to be left in the dark when the coming "storm" is upon us
There's no right or wrong way to get started. If you want to upgrade your license, check out hamradioprep website. User "Julian20" for a 20% discount on an upgrade course.
@@OH8STN need to upgrade... struggling to do so in this post CV19 world... i do best in a classroom because i am a visual learner BUT I am not giving up.... shtf is just around the corner.... that is what I sense at least
Most useful, thank-you Julian
73 Rob G3RCE
Another great video Julian. We were wanting to try P2P at tonights Lyon County (Nevada) ARES meeting....I searched your videos and found this. Again, you explain stuff in an easy to understand manner which I certainly appreciate. Thank you gerry KJ7GEZ
Outstanding.
Wasn't sure if these videos were helpful. There are more practical Winlink videos (from the sysop side) incoming.
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Julian oh8stn
IC-705 with PAT Winlink on Pi! 😳 That’s literally my next task. I’m clearing my calendar for time to watch that.
Nice. This will be the next video out :)
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Julian oh8stn
@@OH8STN Now where’s that Patreon link.... I’m overdue for putting my money where my gratitude is.
Thank you and I have a question. I look forward to the PAT connection and the differences to winlink.
Hi Julian. I have an fx4cr hf rig. It has Bluetooth capability. I also have a window tablet pc. I have a compatible driver that both the rig and windows recognizes and can acquire cat control by telling the pc its a kenwood radio. With that having been said, do I need a digirig or similiar device or can I use vara software instead to get winlink up and going?
👍🏼👍🏼
Trying to decide what radio to get first
Ic 705 or the pa500.
Working on my technicians license currently and can you recommend a study guide or website.
Like to take the general at the same time.
I do Backwoods stuff with pack animals and I am doing this for emergency purposes.
Thanks for the information 👍
Very interesting video, you made me want to learn more about winlink. I have a question: I've seen that the ALC goes up to 100% on the transmitting radio. Isn't this something that should never happen while transmitting digital signals? ALC compresses the audio signal and creates a distortion. In FT8, for example, you have to limit modulation level and be sure that ALC stays at zero at all times...
ALC at 100% on G90 is same as ALC at 0% on IC-7300. There is no common way of displaying the scale. If this was a Japanese radio, your comment would be correct 👍
Thank you so much for examining this, I've always passed on WinLink because I thought it required a gateway. I don't like using any radio methods that require other people's infrastructure to communicate with a target operator, I personally don't think it's radio at that point. Well, with the exception of repeaters, which I still don't like. This is great! By the way, what camera do you use? I'm thinking about starting my own channel, I will be doing random things.
Hi Devin.
Generally I'm right there with you. We utilize this "hybrid" capability for the sake of messaging station to station, station to non ham, but also for "radio only" paths to other stations (we haven't covered this one yet). I don't like using infrastructure I don't control, but focusing on HF, it provides us with enormous possibilities for connections. I generally skip the V/UHF packet stuff and focus where possible on using links outside my region.
For the camera stuff, I'm using DJI Osmo, Osmo mobile, Mavic Mini, with Adobe Premier.
Great video. What kind of connection did you use between your G90 and laptop/Winlink Express (via Vara HF)?
The winlink mode was Vara HF. If you're interested in how that was setup, here's a blog post from earlier this month.
73
Julian oh8stn
oh8stn.org/blog/2020/12/14/xiegu-g90-winlink-express/
I've been restoring a broadcast transmitter for years. Decided to investigate newer digital modes. Just sent my first email via VARA HF. Betcha bottom dollar I'm doing this in my field setup. Do you use an opto-isolator on the DigiRig USB connection? I was having issues if I ran over 10W in the field using FT8.
Welcome to data modes:-)
I don't use an opto isolator. Trouble on the USB port is usually a symptom of some other problem. 90% of the time adding a choke between the antenna and the radio will help. Also adding better ground to the antenna. Or using a balanced antenna. Generally though, the choke provides the best Improvement. Another thing to try is reducing the length of all of your USB cables.
Hi Julian.
By higher the TX power, this will lower the transfere time, and then the DC power consumption will be more od less the same in the end.
73 de OZ3XO - Stig.
We would think so. There are no 100 watt radios with rx current less than ~1A. Even if tx time is longer with a G90, IC-705, KX2, ... the 100 watt radio will use more power just waiting for a connection. Even if we turn to power down on a qro radio, the overhead is still quite high. FT-891 uses 5A even when tx is 5 watts. From an energy conservation perspective, a radio running 10 watts and has ~300mA rx current, ~2-3A tx current is more sustainable. Does that make sense?
@@OH8STN Yes the RX current is an issue of great concirn, but the thing is, that the TX DC current is not 50% at 50% TX power, so it will always be the most sufficient at 100% TX power, at any given radio.
Don’t forget to select VARA Hf P2P for your session.
Great video, 73 de K6EF
Thank you Mark 🙏
Hey Julian, what type of coax do you use in the field when you go remote camping and what length coax do you typically use with your setup. I'm having a hard time deciding what I should use when I head out to remote camp. Thanks
It is a tricky question. When I am high seed low drag, i'll take several lengths of rg-174U, but not more than 5-10 meter/yards because of losses.
If I think it is really going to be a rough excursion, i'll take a single rg-58x, and couple of patch cables of the same type. This is only if I am not hiking very far.
My favorite is the RG-316 but often use 174 because its cheaper. Whatever I use, I domp all the crimp connectors, and solder everything myself. Can't trust commercial crimped coax these days.
Hope this helps
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Julian oh8stn
@@OH8STN Wow, I didn't expect to see you use such small coax. I would guess that it's based purely on weight savings? I was thinking of one or two runs of rg-58/rg-8x until I read your comment. Anyway, I appreciate your reply and has made me possibly rethink my choice of coax.
Yes it's all about the weight savings Matthew.. we can expand on this topic for a moment. One of the reasons I don't try to put dipoles up in a tree is the weight of the coax coming from the Cobra head back into the radio. If you use good coax, it's going to be heavy. If you used lightweight coax there are losses. That's why I typically use an end fed antenna, with a feed point is close to my radio and shelter as possible. If you adopt this type of strategy, some meters of RG58 X isn't bad.
@@OH8STN I guess I will need to look into end fed antennas more. I typically just use an off center dipole and yes it all does get fairly heavy. Maybe in the future you could produce a video showing and explaining how you set up your rigs, what you take on an expedition and why you do it that way. That would help those of us new to this side of the field tremendously because it is much different that operating in the shack. You have been a great help and I look forward to more of your content. Thank you again.
I have pat p2p ardop working and tested with my state emcomm group
2023 disaster, no pre contact.... how do we do P2P, we need pre arranged P2P stations.
I think just like the RMS stations there needs to be a method to announce the specifics that a P2P is available for traffic. A position report with a box you can check would work, when you select VARA Hf P2P and select channels maybe you could see them on a map, if there was a big disaster on the Washington coast I am in central wa so that would P2P could land. Same for me at 130 mi I could send messages to Spokane. Some of are going to do exercises to figure out how to do this. Winlink depending on Amazon servers that can and have shut down servers if they wish.
It sounds like packet in a way.
Maybe a video on ax25 point to point links, or point to multi point multicast for prepper ipv4 network. For the likes of roip gateways, aredn hf relay setup and perhaps tying in pocsag or other features. Lots of options
Even pistar units can work over aredn. So would be a way to essentially make a dmr mesh with hf long distance data links for places out of the range of normal uhf and vhf
There's probably other channels better suited to AREDN type systems. There's a pretty large infrastructure requirement, and at this latitude, there's no one to test with. :(
@@OH8STN I'd say replace aredn with ax25 pactor or amtor in this scenario then over hf. That way you could run vhf or uhf pistar unit over an Hf link if you don't have a repeater, internet or wifi or cellular but do have a remote friend with any of the above. Might show a useful way to use comms in a grid down scenario
That way your qrp rig, solar n psu n such could live in the tent or truck, and still allow local uhf and vhf for your friends or team
Amtor was used heavily at one time for a similar system. But Amtor became redundant after using it for years. One mode that's never been revived due to it's timing issues I gather.
Julian, when running 5 or 10w what baud rate to you use?
I'm not doing Packet. VARAHF sets up the speed based on SNR and conditions between stations. Not a fixed band rate.
Too bad that VARA is only available for Windows. What is max size of emails and attachments? I thought I remembered reading 150KB, but I may have that wrong.
120kb for email. Yes I also wish but I were available on Linux, but the guy wants to get paid for his work.
Excellent video. So is Vara free now? I thought there was a license fee? PS - learning by mistakes is a great way to teach!
VARA is free however the free version does not have all the bells. With the paid version you get the full speed. Plus you are supporting them so they can continue to improve the product and it is not all that much.
@@anthonygannon5461 yes - I ended up buying a license. Definitely worth it! There are a lot more stations using it now versus 2 years ago.
Does the receive side of P2P need to do anything to initiate the handshake/exchange? Or, is Winlink listening? Or, is Vara P2P listening? Does a VaraP2P session need to be opened on the waiting side?
Excellent question 👍.
Winlink needs to be running in p2p mode, radio on.
73
Julian oh8stn
@@OH8STN Thanks for the reply...I was curious because I wrestled with it a bit this afternoon but finally got it configured for my DX10...P2P test with friends will come next!
how do you use the 2nd window with the signal diagram and stuff? when i use Winlink Express i click the "start session" and i get the usual white window like you have on the top. if i start the stand-alone? VARA HF program i get an error saying i am already running another instance of VARA.
Win link will start vada automatically. If you try to start it again you'll get that error you mentioned.
@@OH8STNi just came back to delete my comment because i realized the window was already started, but minimized. sorry to have taken your time for this.
also Thank You! for your videos!
For some reason there was some strange stuff at the start of this video. Some color dots with numbers in them. I have never seen this before.
So you took the red pill? Seriously, not sure what that is.
I don't know if you mentioned it or what the rules are where you are, but where I am in Canada, one needs to have an "Advanced" license (which I do) in order to operate an unattended station. One can access frequencies below 30 MHz with a "Basic with Honours" (passed basic exam with at least 80%) license (my first license; got my Advanced about two weeks later). de VA7JMN
Thanks, I thought it was self apparent. We always need to operate within their privileges.
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Julian oh8stn
I'm curious - could someone grab Teme's messages if they set up WinLink, but used his call sign in the setup?
Excellent question. I need to do some testing to find out the answer. Absolutely awesome question
@@OH8STN Thank you. One of the questions that's come up talking with served agencies and NGOs is "how secure is it"? The nominal answer is that it's probably secure enough, but I got thinking about ways someone might break in. Thanks again for this series, I'm finally getting into digital modes, and your videos have been a huge step up the learning curve.
excuse me if I"m ignorant, I don't even have my license yet. ... studying now. But what if the government shuts down WinkLink? Is there any way to do all of this without WinLink?
That's the beauty of it, the government cannot shut down winlink. The internet can be blocked, but station to station or radio only traffic is completely decentralized.
Hi what are 705 settings - Thanks
oh8stn.org/blog/2021/02/02/icom-ic-705-winlink-express-setup/
I've sent p2p using Pactor 3 to KL7EDK and AG6SV sending High Def pictures between Alaska and California, that was before I lost access to the roof for HF. 73 va7dgp
Interesting! Was that reasonably fast?
@@OH8STN faster than packet which took 30-45 min to send. I did a test several years ago. It took forever. Sending it via Winlink, not p2p on the packet gateway. I also sent pictures way back using winmor. I switch to Pactor as it was a lot faster but still took awhile. Packet a lot slower for local comms. I switched to Pactor and we were testing the path from Alaska and California. P2P was anywhere from 5-15 minutes depending on band noise and condition. Locally we are using SSTV to send pictures. We are getting local Emergency groups interested in Damage Assessment and pictures to tell a lot. SSTV is faster at telling a picture story compared to a picture filed attached to Winlink Message.
Very interesting. 👍👍👍
What is a "Radio only" type of connection?
Excellent question. This is probably the next winlink video I do. The radio only connections forward your winlink email over the air rather than through the internet. Of course it will fail if it can't find a path. But I have sent radio only emails from northern Finland, down into Austria for example. In North America there's a much better Network, and probably a better chance I've getting those messages through. It's excellent for regional or Statewide Communications.
I am not challenging your expertise, I am trying to learn... whybisbwinlink even necessary. packet radio uses a full tcpip stack and can communicate directly with other peers that support it. full "ethernet-like" connectivity and behavior is possible. my understanding is that winl8nk is a way to embed text-message-like payloads in those packets. so much more could be done without winl8nk.
You're good.
NO Infrastructure requirements, simplicity grandma can use it, ability to send or receive off of RF, very short learning curve, robust weak signal performance. ...
What do you think about dstar?
Generally not using repeaters, but like having the capability. Would love to test, but no d-star repeaters in Finland. Also refuse to do repeater over Internet.
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Julian oh8stn
Julian, can you email forward through the internet using an internet connected radio via P2P?
Honestly I haven't tried it. I wouldn't even know where to begin.
@@OH8STN I seem to remember there was some feature in the setup of winlink that may have a forwarding feature, but I am not sure if it works with P2P. BTW, I use VARA all the time it absolutely rocks with the latest version. It is very comparable to PACTOR now without the expense.
If you can try to lead me to that feature you're talkin about, I can do a video on that as well. I'm just not sure about it.
Yeah I don't know if you saw my Instagram post, about Vara. 1200 bucks for a pact or modem versus 74 the full version of Vara. Or the free version which is in my opinion fast enough 😂
@@OH8STN Julian, look under the settings pull down menu under message notifications and forwarding and see if that might work under P2P as long as the receiving station is hooked to the internet. 73s IU3JNT
Will do 👍👍👍
How can P2P be used on V/U?
Just the same like HF. The frequency doesn't matter.
How far away is the other station?
From my limited understanding, NVIS is not very dependent upon band / ionosphere conditions. Correct?
Incorrect. The opposite is true. It's very dependent on the maximum usable frequency and band. NVIS works "best" on 160m (or lower), 80m, 60m, 40m and sometimes 30m with good MUF. Other station was ~390km away.
73
Julian oh8stn
Kind of surprised you didn't feature the "Radio Only" option which allows you to send email to one of the RMS gateways which then it stores/transmits to other gateways via radio so it would work even if worldwide internet service is unavailable. The message then sits on the RMS awaiting a connection from the recipient so it can pass the message directly. From an EMCOMM standpoint this would be preferable to peer to peer because it is still asynchronous, but is still likely to be operational even after a catastrophic event (only requirement is a backup power source at the RMS)
It's a series. One topic at a time. Will definitely get to radio only winlink 👍
What if the internet goes down and you do not have the software pre-installed. How can HAMs share software over RF?
The point is to be prepared before the fact. This doesn't help the unprepared, but that can't be made out to be our problem. Personally, I have a library of books on pdf, plus apps for Windows, Android, Linux and Raspberry Pi. I can get people technical manuals, but transferring installation media over RF to someone with no data capabilities will never happen. Its the chicken and the egg. Be prepared, or be left behind.
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Julian oh8stn
@@OH8STN I have a keychain usb flash drive that I keep many apps and maps on. But my friend asked me this question, and i wasnt sure how to answer it.
I don't understand why low power is something you should strive for, from a preppers point of view, it seems not the right thing to me. Things you should strive for is low power consumption, portability, durability, simplicity and so. But you should try to have as much of RF power as possible considering all of the mentioned before. Looks more like you try to promote the QRP hobby, which is fine but, not from a preppers point of view.
I can not see anything it is to far from the camera
Good information especially for someone new to WinLink ( me).
What happens if the message is partially sent? How do you know it was received correctly and completely?
Is there anything that stores your message if you can't get it at the designated time?
Do you use another digital program as a bell ringer to let you know that you have a message?
Thank you
73
AB9CQ