Thank you SO VERY MUCH Alex for doing this English language series. This talk in particular is fascinating. It would be wonderful if Konrad Schmid would do a public lecture in Israel & Israel Knohl in English. Again thank you & PLEASE do more in English!
This is an outstanding discussion of the literary origins of the Pentateuch by two of the leading scholars in the field. I have a bachelor's degree in religion with an emphasis on Judaism and Christianity and I find these types of scholarly discussions fascinating. I am so happy that I found this channel where biblical scholarship lives. A humble thank you to the creators of this channel.
Prof. Konrad Schmid and Prof. Israel Knohl are brilliant. This is a very illuminating discussion and it is wonderful the mutual respect they hold for each other, which is evident throughout their talk.
Books by professor Konrad Schmid (affiliated links) The Making of the Bible: From the First Fragments to Sacred Scripture Kindle amzn.to/3QnfMUl Hardcover amzn.to/3XgJgFY === A Historical Theology of the Hebrew Bible Kindle amzn.to/3vMIxjP Hardcover amzn.to/3k2kAlV ===
Books by professor Israel Knohl (affiliated links) The Messiah Confrontation: Pharisees versus Sadducees and the Death of Jesus Kindle amzn.to/3vMDMHi Paperback amzn.to/3WStBwI === The Messiah before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls Kindle amzn.to/3X9TLe0 Paperback amzn.to/3GXuNtf ===
Thank you for another top video! Also people might find interesting "Genesis and the Moses Story: Israel's Dual Origins in the Hebrew Bible - Dr. Konrad Schmid" video on "History Valley" RUclips channel
This is a great channel and great settings. I would like to see more dialogues between scientists who represent different schools of thought (e.g. maximalists versus minimalists) than just interviews. However, Kedem's interviews are also brilliant.
Very interesting video. We have the chance to see the expertise of Hebrew scholars in dealing with modern interpretation of the Bible. My impression was that there were only specialist in theology. Nice surprise.
When he mentions the golden calf of Bethel why does he mention Exodus? That didn't happen until the book of 1 Kings. The golden calf in Exodus has nothing to do with bethel.
I paraphrase the concluding remarks of the talk as, "BE FRUITFUL [in your discussions of differing opinions] AND MULTIPLY [the products of your research]."
The Temple Priests found a gift , a copy in human handwriting of Moses Law, given to the Temple, and found in the Treasury, given then to King Josiah to read, the date around 619 B.C. and the king , an heir of Solomon, tried to enforce the law as read in this copy, with no good effects , God was determined to destroy the Jewish State. The writing had to be Aramaic to account for familiarity among many Semites who were not Jews. It appears the Torah was recited orally by the Priests using cuing and marks made of sundry items of daily living, and that this was their life's work , to memorize and sing the verses without any written instructions. For that time , the entire civilized world relied on Oral Teaching , where songs and reciting verses were all memorized and aided often by musical instruments and pedagogy , which is what became a formal processional march , priests would walk and talk, in step, and with musical accompany , tambourines and flutes, drums and horns, aiding the ability to sing and speak orally the entire Torah. The Priests of Temple were oral teachers , just like Jesus Christ was an oral teacher , and never wrote any books. Writing Books may have been considered "Graven Images" since the pictographs used in the Alphabet systems , in Canaan and Syria, were objects that the Law of Moses would consider to be "Idols" like the Calf's Head, was the letter "A" for Alpha or Aleph, either way, it was an OX head with horns, that eventually was turned upside down, to appear as the letter "A". So a true Priest of Temple Israel involved learning to recite the Torah , Bet to Taw, or beginning to end, verbally , orally without aid of any books to read. But they had assistance of tassles on their garments , jewelry , hats, sticks, medallions, gem stones, dishes and cups to drink out of, all used in a daily routine to learn the recite orally the whole law of Moses. So if Jesus was a Nazirite Priest of Temple Israel , born in Zion , circumcised on Mount Zion in Temple Israel by the Sons of Zadok, then as such he knew the Law and the Prophets by heart and explains why he sat among the Teachers in the Temple, as young as twelve years old and amazed the Priests with his ability to dialogue and ask questions showing the expertise of a genius child, among the Elders. So Jesus never wrote any books, such actions were considered "GRAVEN IMAGES" to use human inventions of handwriting to make a book of the Law. Making a book of the law dismisses the need of the Anointed One to either Leaven or Judge the interpretations of the Law. But in the time of the Greeks, the Jews translated or made a Greek Language Bible, for the benefit of the non Jews , called the Septuagint. But to be qualified as a Teacher of the Law, the Candidate had to prove he could recite the Torah , Beginning to End, Bet to Taw, and that was his Profession , plus if he was a Prophet or Judge , he could leaven or interpret the meaning of the Law, with the power to Abrogate Laws or Hold Laws in Abeyance, to show Mercy and Compassion for the Human Condition. Obviously Jesus was ISRAEL.
Books by professor Konrad Schmid (affiliated links) The Making of the Bible: From the First Fragments to Sacred Scripture Kindle amzn.to/3QnfMUl Hardcover amzn.to/3XgJgFY === A Historical Theology of the Hebrew Bible Kindle amzn.to/3vMIxjP Hardcover amzn.to/3k2kAlV ===
Look mr kadem, whom you think were Prophets were actually scoundrels..scoundrels wrote this holy books and duped people in name of YHWH..this YHWH doesnot exist, Gabriel Mikhail doesnot exist. They are imaginary characters. What makes me to say so? I am an idol worshipper from india. I know the art of making idols and creating god out of theose. Father of Abraham Terah was an idol worshipper. Namrud the king of Babylon was an idol worshipper..I understand what they were doing. What HABIRU Abraham was doing. Well HABIRUs are Hebrews. This prophets were HABIRUs. Thugs thieves looters Outlaws who justified their nefarious acts in name of YHWH and projecting themselves as Prophets of YHWH.
(09 November 2023, 06:45 a.m. EST) The Pentateuch or Torah can be dated by an ANACHRONISM appearing in Genesis 36:33 (TANAKH- The Holy Scriptures. 1988): "When Bela died, Jobab son of Zerah, FROM BOZRAH, succeeded him as king." In the 1970s achaeologists excavated Bozrah, a former capital of biblical Edom (called Buseirah today), and determined from its pottery debris that it was founded no earlier than the Eighth Century BC (the 700s BC). Whoever made mention of Bozrah in the Torah, it was not a Moses of ca. 1446-1406 BC (cf. 1 Kings 6:1), nor of ca. 1260 BC and the time of Pharaoh Ramesses II, it was someone AFTER Bozrah had come into existence, no earlier than the 8th Century BC. We are informed that the High Priest, Hilkiah (2 Kings 22:8), found "the book of the Lord" in the Temple (assumed to be a euphemism for the Torah by some scholars). King Josiah is informed of this discovery. Josiah reigned in the 7th Century BC. HOW INTERESTING: BOZRAH IS 8TH CENTURY BC. HILKIAH FINDS THE TORAH IN THE FOLLOWING CENTURY... THE 7TH CENTURY BC. Apparently Bozrah had been founded in the century before the Torah was found in the 7th century BC! Perhaps the Torah was not written by Moshe (Moses ca. 1446 BC)? Perhaps the Torah had been composed under Hilkiah's authority and fraudulently passed off as the work of Moshe (Moses)?
@user-bl2lu2nx2u I don't agree with his tone, but his point is valid, i.e. that the Torah was not written by Moses. I think that (and that Moses probably didn't exist) is well accepted now. All of this is important and Western religions are at a pivot point after about 2.5 millennia. When we have leaders invoking "Amalekites" to justify military actions, we're entitled to question that reasoning.
One needs to observe what's written in the Tanach, what's commanded in the Torah and not waste endless time by incessant, inconclusive academic probing, and wasted time as to who wrote what or not, and during which time period or not, etc.
There are different ways of reading the bible: besides the here discussed historical critical reading there are literary readings and religious readings. You want the latter, and I'm sure there are many videos and texts that can help with that. This video is not one of those. . . . I'm religious myself but a catholic Christian, not a Jew: our religious readings would deviate from each other. I see in the historical critical reading a way to enrich my religious reading, but maybe you don't. But then I would wonder: why are you watching this video?
Really...? Just memorize it, and follow it? If Torah is a gift from G-d, don't we honour it by taking it seriously, and studying it deeply? Judaic tradition places a huge value on questionning, for its value in terms of educating
Cui bono. Not que. And I believe the question pertained to who, independently of when, had the economic interest that led to the economic input behind the compilation of the Torah. The wording may have had conspiratorial overtones, but actually encompasses a legitimate question, one of Marxist inclination, no less. The shortcut answer is yes, it is propaganda. As well as a magnificent, cross generational cultural imprint of several peoples and traditions.
We don't know who paid, but we can speculate: the compilation of different texts into earlier and later stages of the Pentateuch probably happened in Babylonia - financed by those Jewish exiles who wanted to keep their identity in the large metropolis with thousands of different gods. Editing and redacting might have happened in Babylonia or in Jerusalem: you need less money for that than authority, which the priests in Jerusalem could provide. Widespread publishing/copying happened then under the Hasmoneans who forced the conquered people to follow the Torah. Yonathan Adler speaks in his video about the last step.
The Torah itself does not make the claim that is was written by Moses. It is the Teachings of Moses, yes, but nowhere does it say it was written by him. On the contrary. Read the Torah, people.
The claim that Genesis doesn't jell with the rest of the Torah is based on a single view: that it presents a conflicting picture of the pharaohs. What a weak and absurd argument! Sometimes academic scholarship assumes it can play God!
@@arulsammymankondar30 Indeed! I agree 100%. But once in a while, you come across a true scholar, one that actually shines a big bright light on the Torah.
@@1995yuda From a purely literary perspective, Genesis is a marvel of narrative genre. To capture aeons of history in just 50 Chapters without sacrificing the reader's attention is a superhuman effort. It acts as a sort of prologue for the other books of the Torah. The fartherest example to my limited knowledge is Chaucer's Prologue to the Canterbury Tales. The individual tales are hung/ strung together by the Prologue, though each can be examined as a standalone unit. English language and spelling were unsettled in Chaucer's time. To impeach the genuineness of the work on the basis of a modern redacted version would be absurd. This is true for the Genesis also. Presence of a few Persian words may be a pointer to the period of redaction and not necessarily to its original writing.
@@KEDEMChannel when you read the old testament like Deuteronomy you can see reported speeches that are attributed to Moses all the time. You can clearly see that somebody wrote them and credited Moses with it.
It's like the Christian gospels: a lot of folks wrote them, but someone collated them. In the case of the Pentateuch the one who collated them rewrote them to a certain Hebrew language style of a certain century. _(In the case of the Gospels, there are four different collators, but that is irrelevant here)_
Ma fascineaza sa ascult si alte religii IN special POPORUL ALES A LUI DUMNEZEU.Ma iertati. Am si eu o intrebare. DACA APARE UN SFANT CA CEI DIN PATERICUL EGIPTEAN, VIETILE SFINTILOR si umbla cu cerurile si DUMNEZEU CUVANTUL adica SFANTA TREIME, TATAL ,FIUL SI DUHUL SFANT SI CU FECIOARA MARIA NASCATOARE DE DUMNEZEU pe pamant care va fi raspunsul si demonstratia voastra? SI DACA AR DESCHIDE PRIMUL CER ? SI DACA AR SPUNE CA NOUL IERUSALIM ESTE IN CERURI AR FI OARE CREZUT ? SANATATE TUTUROR!
Sounds pompous that you would assume you need many people to start writing things down. You don't need many people to subject them to rule and then to keep a record of who has and hasn't paid.
Thank you, sirs! It is nice to see open discussion on a subject so many view through the lens of their respective churches, synagogues or self-professed hatred of them.
RE: Mr. Knohl's perspective that no 'written' Torah record Could Be written before literacy o reading and writing. The same can be said today of Catholicism with all The Vatican's False doctrines as an illiterate church is an easy church to rule! Against all of this stands- (Hab.2.4 "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is Not upright in him, but the just shall live by Faith'- (Heb. 'emonah'). (Mat.11.25 ''At that time Yeshua. declared, "I thank thee, Father, YAHWEH of Heaven and earth, that Thou has hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes- yes- Father for such was your gracious will.")
That's not even the question, you are both waaaay off. Pentateuch is the Greek word for Torah and refers specify to the Greek Translation of Torah. So, the question "when was the Pentateuch written" means "when was the Greek Translation of Torah written". You don't even understand your own question. Answer; the Pentateuch was written down at the same time as Torah was written down, 270 BC in Alexandria at the Order of Ptolemy II. Prior to this, Torah was scattered and oral.
No, Pentateuch does not specifically refer to the Greek translation but refers instead to both Hebrew text and all translations. Like the Book of Isaiah doesn't refer to only text in one language but to the Hebrew text of the book and to all translations.
OP these are two of the most respected scholars in this particular field with decades of experience. Perhaps thinking they were unable to understand the concept of what they were talking about could be seen as a touch arrogant? As Peter points out, you are wrong in your assumption.
@@גקליןיפה I didn't say that but they know a heck of a lot compared to any amateur. They are professionals in their fields not armchair wannabes. What's with the grammar, are you ok?
The Torah itself does NOT say that it was written by Moses. It is his Prophetic teachings, but the final script of the Torah was not written by him. Scholars should do a better work understanding what the Torah clearly says, otherwise they are fighting themselves.
@@user-bo8nb2mi Read the Torah. It isn't told by Moses. The Torah itself makes it perfectly clear. It contains the Teachings of Moses, what God taught him, but the completed Torah we have was not written by Moses. Our Sages have talked about this, this is nothing new. Just study the Torah and read what our Sages said.
Thank you for this interesting talk, especially - 37:00 to 42:20 about the "anti-monarchism" of Deuteronomic writings and then - after 42:20 about the future of bible scholarship and bridging the gap between scholars in Europe on one side and in US and Israel on the other side. . . . It is not only the Book of Deuteronomy but the whole Deuteronomistic History some European scholars want to locate to Babylon and later. For that, they deny a larger influence of refugees from the Northern kingdom in Jerusalem that could otherwise create some anti-monarchic literature. . . . Personally, I tend more to Finkelstein's view: the creation of literature is greatly helped by a good economy, which existed only from ~800BC(begin of widespread writing) to 722BC in the Northern Kingdom, from 750BC to 586BC in the Southern Kingdom, and after 165BC under the Hasmoneans. The intermediate, poorer times lend themselves more to conserving, compiling, and redacting existing literature fragments. Some great creation happened, too, of course, like Deutero-Isaiah.
@40:10 Knohl emphasised "reality is reality": if you work at the court, you don't write against the king. - True. But why should we think the "anti-monarchists" worked at the court? I would expect them rather to stay and work within their own circles of northern refugees in Judah, at least for the first 50 years. . . . Wasn't the difficulty northern refugees experienced in Judah comparable to the difficulty Judahites experienced in Babylonian Exile? Why would the latter, within their own circles, write anti-monarchist books but not the former? . . . For at least one anti-monarchist book, the Book of Hosea, a development/rewrite in the circles of the northern refugees in Judah seems more likely than in the circles in Babylonian Exile. Because Hosea was one of their own, and they brought his writings with them. . . . In the latter part of the 7th century BC, the descendents of the refugees were better integrated in Judahite society, maybe even fully integrated through frequent intermarriage. Then would be the time to write Jerusalem into the Book of Kings as the only place of legitimate worship.
Schmidt is not Jewish. His father was a protestant theologian. Assuming they are both Jewish, while at the same time ignoring that the conversation is not about the existance of god, rather about Bible composition, sounded antisemitic. If it was just atheist banter, I apologize for jumping to conclusions. Either way, Bible studies if pretty amazing, even for atheists, like myself, and its appreciation is entirely independent of belief.
@@juliano9566 A lot of these acedemics give comfort and shelter to the bad ideas in order to make money. Like Bart Ehrman pretending Jesus exists so as not to offend the Christian retards that employ him.
Pretty cool to see George R.R. Martin discuss the Hebrew Bible!
Lmao
Not so cool considering he hasn't finished ASOIAF yet.
LMAO
I was thinking the same thing
I don’t think he likes winners as much tough
Thank you SO VERY MUCH Alex for doing this English language series. This talk in particular is fascinating. It would be wonderful if Konrad Schmid would do a public lecture in Israel & Israel Knohl in English.
Again thank you & PLEASE do more in English!
Thank you, we are on it :)
This is an outstanding discussion of the literary origins of the Pentateuch by two of the leading scholars in the field. I have a bachelor's degree in religion with an emphasis on Judaism and Christianity and I find these types of scholarly discussions fascinating. I am so happy that I found this channel where biblical scholarship lives. A humble thank you to the creators of this channel.
Thank you so much for your kind words 🙏 This is what we are passionate about, happy we are not alone 😊
Wholeheartedly agree!
Thanks for, I found this channel.
And the Creator?
A very interesting conversation between two gentlemen. Wisdom begins with humility.
True. Thank you 🙏
Prof. Konrad Schmid and Prof. Israel Knohl are brilliant. This is a very illuminating discussion and it is wonderful the mutual respect they hold for each other, which is evident throughout their talk.
Thank you 🙏
❤❤❤❤
Books by professor Konrad Schmid (affiliated links)
The Making of the Bible: From the First Fragments to Sacred Scripture
Kindle
amzn.to/3QnfMUl
Hardcover
amzn.to/3XgJgFY
===
A Historical Theology of the Hebrew Bible
Kindle
amzn.to/3vMIxjP
Hardcover
amzn.to/3k2kAlV
===
Books by professor Israel Knohl (affiliated links)
The Messiah Confrontation: Pharisees versus Sadducees and the Death of Jesus
Kindle
amzn.to/3vMDMHi
Paperback
amzn.to/3WStBwI
===
The Messiah before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls
Kindle
amzn.to/3X9TLe0
Paperback
amzn.to/3GXuNtf
===
Thank you for another top video!
Also people might find interesting "Genesis and the Moses Story: Israel's Dual Origins in the Hebrew Bible - Dr. Konrad Schmid" video on "History Valley" RUclips channel
Thank you! Stay tuned.
@@KEDEMChannel Thanks again for doing such important work and making it possible for us to witness such great scholars in dialogue!
This is a great channel and great settings. I would like to see more dialogues between scientists who represent different schools of thought (e.g. maximalists versus minimalists) than just interviews. However, Kedem's interviews are also brilliant.
Thanks! Will do 😊
Plain fantastic discourse amongst giants of researchers in history and literary scripts. For me was most educational and joy to watch.
Great to hear, thank you!
Very interesting video. We have the chance to see the expertise of Hebrew scholars in dealing with modern interpretation of the Bible. My impression was that there were only specialist in theology. Nice surprise.
Thank you. Our channel is about scholarship and high-level academic research only. There are enough channels providing Zé pure theology out there :)
@@KEDEMChannel Indeed, this is high quality scholarship. Hope to maintain the standard.
Alex, you should bring Prof Israel Knohl for more English discussions of the Torah.
Sure, we just started with English speaking channel
Messianic chritians why they're speaking the torah go ask temanites who wrote it
When he mentions the golden calf of Bethel why does he mention Exodus? That didn't happen until the book of 1 Kings. The golden calf in Exodus has nothing to do with bethel.
Because obviously the golden calf part in exodus was written as a direct attack against Beth el.
I paraphrase the concluding remarks of the talk as, "BE FRUITFUL [in your discussions of differing opinions] AND MULTIPLY [the products of your research]."
Very educational and I enjoyed the show.
Thank you!
The Temple Priests found a gift , a copy in human handwriting of Moses Law, given to the Temple, and found in the Treasury, given then to King Josiah to read, the date around 619 B.C. and the king , an heir of Solomon, tried to enforce the law as read in this copy, with no good effects , God was determined to destroy the Jewish State. The writing had to be Aramaic to account for familiarity among many Semites who were not Jews. It appears the Torah was recited orally by the Priests using cuing and marks made of sundry items of daily living, and that this was their life's work , to memorize and sing the verses without any written instructions. For that time , the entire civilized world relied on Oral Teaching , where songs and reciting verses were all memorized and aided often by musical instruments and pedagogy , which is what became a formal processional march , priests would walk and talk, in step, and with musical accompany , tambourines and flutes, drums and horns, aiding the ability to sing and speak orally the entire Torah. The Priests of Temple were oral teachers , just like Jesus Christ was an oral teacher , and never wrote any books. Writing Books may have been considered "Graven Images" since the pictographs used in the Alphabet systems , in Canaan and Syria, were objects that the Law of Moses would consider to be "Idols" like the Calf's Head, was the letter "A" for Alpha or Aleph, either way, it was an OX head with horns, that eventually was turned upside down, to appear as the letter "A".
So a true Priest of Temple Israel involved learning to recite the Torah , Bet to Taw, or beginning to end, verbally , orally without aid of any books to read. But they had assistance of tassles on their garments , jewelry , hats, sticks, medallions, gem stones, dishes and cups to drink out of, all used in a daily routine to learn the recite orally the whole law of Moses. So if Jesus was a Nazirite Priest of Temple Israel , born in Zion , circumcised on Mount Zion in Temple Israel by the Sons of Zadok,
then as such he knew the Law and the Prophets by heart and explains why he sat among the Teachers in the Temple, as young as twelve years old and amazed the Priests with his ability to dialogue and ask questions showing the expertise of a genius child, among the Elders. So Jesus never wrote any books, such actions were considered "GRAVEN IMAGES" to use human inventions of handwriting to make a book of the Law. Making a book of the law dismisses the need of the Anointed One to either Leaven or Judge the interpretations of the Law. But in the time of the Greeks, the Jews translated or made a Greek Language Bible, for the benefit of the non Jews , called the Septuagint. But to be qualified as a Teacher of the Law, the Candidate had to prove he could recite the Torah , Beginning to End, Bet to Taw, and that was his Profession , plus if he was a Prophet or Judge , he could leaven or interpret the meaning of the Law, with the power to Abrogate Laws or Hold Laws in Abeyance, to show Mercy and Compassion for the Human Condition. Obviously Jesus was ISRAEL.
Books by professor Konrad Schmid (affiliated links)
The Making of the Bible: From the First Fragments to Sacred Scripture
Kindle
amzn.to/3QnfMUl
Hardcover
amzn.to/3XgJgFY
===
A Historical Theology of the Hebrew Bible
Kindle
amzn.to/3vMIxjP
Hardcover
amzn.to/3k2kAlV
===
Look mr kadem, whom you think were Prophets were actually scoundrels..scoundrels wrote this holy books and duped people in name of YHWH..this YHWH doesnot exist, Gabriel Mikhail doesnot exist. They are imaginary characters.
What makes me to say so?
I am an idol worshipper from india. I know the art of making idols and creating god out of theose. Father of Abraham Terah was an idol worshipper. Namrud the king of Babylon was an idol worshipper..I understand what they were doing. What HABIRU Abraham was doing.
Well HABIRUs are Hebrews. This prophets were HABIRUs. Thugs thieves looters Outlaws who justified their nefarious acts in name of YHWH and projecting themselves as Prophets of YHWH.
(09 November 2023, 06:45 a.m. EST)
The Pentateuch or Torah can be dated by an ANACHRONISM appearing in Genesis 36:33
(TANAKH- The Holy Scriptures. 1988):
"When Bela died, Jobab son of Zerah, FROM BOZRAH, succeeded him as king."
In the 1970s achaeologists excavated Bozrah, a former capital of biblical Edom (called Buseirah today), and determined from its pottery debris that it was founded no earlier than the Eighth Century BC (the 700s BC).
Whoever made mention of Bozrah in the Torah, it was not a Moses of ca. 1446-1406 BC (cf. 1 Kings 6:1), nor of ca. 1260 BC and the time of Pharaoh Ramesses II, it was someone AFTER Bozrah had come into existence, no earlier than the 8th Century BC.
We are informed that the High Priest, Hilkiah (2 Kings 22:8), found "the book of the Lord" in the Temple (assumed to be a euphemism for the Torah by some scholars).
King Josiah is informed of this discovery. Josiah reigned in the 7th Century BC.
HOW INTERESTING:
BOZRAH IS 8TH CENTURY BC.
HILKIAH FINDS THE TORAH IN THE FOLLOWING CENTURY... THE 7TH CENTURY BC.
Apparently Bozrah had been founded in the century before the Torah was found in the 7th century BC!
Perhaps the Torah was not written by Moshe (Moses ca. 1446 BC)?
Perhaps the Torah had been composed under Hilkiah's authority and fraudulently passed off as the work of Moshe (Moses)?
What. Is. Your. Point? 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
@user-bl2lu2nx2u I don't agree with his tone, but his point is valid, i.e. that the Torah was not written by Moses. I think that (and that Moses probably didn't exist) is well accepted now.
All of this is important and Western religions are at a pivot point after about 2.5 millennia.
When we have leaders invoking "Amalekites" to justify military actions, we're entitled to question that reasoning.
One needs to observe what's written in the Tanach, what's commanded in the Torah and not waste endless time by incessant, inconclusive academic probing, and wasted time as to who wrote what or not, and during which time period or not, etc.
Do what G-d says, not investigate who, what, why. when, He is. Obey Him on earth not probe Him on high.
There are different ways of reading the bible: besides the here discussed historical critical reading there are literary readings and religious readings. You want the latter, and I'm sure there are many videos and texts that can help with that. This video is not one of those.
. . . I'm religious myself but a catholic Christian, not a Jew: our religious readings would deviate from each other. I see in the historical critical reading a way to enrich my religious reading, but maybe you don't. But then I would wonder: why are you watching this video?
Really...?
Just memorize it, and follow it?
If Torah is a gift from G-d, don't we honour it by taking it seriously, and studying it deeply?
Judaic tradition places a huge value on questionning, for its value in terms of educating
Do not open your mouth, do not think, just obbey?
A childlike view of things. This here is where adults talk to each other.
THANK YOU for this erudition. No words.
Thank you 🙏
איזה פתיח לפנים, עלייה ברמה, כל הכבוד
Thank you 🙏
Knowledge sooths the soul.. Two knowledgeable gentlemen.
Que Bono? Who paid for compilation editing and publishing?
What do you mean?
Cui bono. Not que. And I believe the question pertained to who, independently of when, had the economic interest that led to the economic input behind the compilation of the Torah. The wording may have had conspiratorial overtones, but actually encompasses a legitimate question, one of Marxist inclination, no less.
The shortcut answer is yes, it is propaganda. As well as a magnificent, cross generational cultural imprint of several peoples and traditions.
We don't know who paid, but we can speculate: the compilation of different texts into earlier and later stages of the Pentateuch probably happened in Babylonia - financed by those Jewish exiles who wanted to keep their identity in the large metropolis with thousands of different gods. Editing and redacting might have happened in Babylonia or in Jerusalem: you need less money for that than authority, which the priests in Jerusalem could provide. Widespread publishing/copying happened then under the Hasmoneans who forced the conquered people to follow the Torah. Yonathan Adler speaks in his video about the last step.
אלכס שלום, תנסה את הלוגו בצבע כחול כהה, אולי יהיה יפה יותר
The Torah itself does not make the claim that is was written by Moses. It is the Teachings of Moses, yes, but nowhere does it say it was written by him. On the contrary. Read the Torah, people.
The claim that Genesis doesn't jell with the rest of the Torah is based on a single view: that it presents a conflicting picture of the pharaohs. What a weak and absurd argument! Sometimes academic scholarship assumes it can play God!
@@arulsammymankondar30 Indeed! I agree 100%. But once in a while, you come across a true scholar, one that actually shines a big bright light on the Torah.
@@1995yuda
From a purely literary perspective, Genesis is a marvel of narrative genre. To capture aeons of history in just 50 Chapters without sacrificing the reader's attention is a superhuman effort. It acts as a sort of prologue for the other books of the Torah. The fartherest example to my limited knowledge is Chaucer's Prologue to the Canterbury Tales. The individual tales are hung/ strung together by the Prologue, though each can be examined as a standalone unit.
English language and spelling were unsettled in Chaucer's time. To impeach the genuineness of the work on the basis of a modern redacted version would be absurd. This is true for the Genesis also. Presence of a few Persian words may be a pointer to the period of redaction and not necessarily to its original writing.
@@arulsammymankondar30 I call a sexual intellectual a fuc*ing wise guy.
@@arulsammymankondar30 this is an awesome analogy. Thank you for your insight!
Not MOSES 100% 👀
Is it true that the Israelites walked through the red sea? They would be swallowed by mud if they did.
It is a legend
@@KEDEMChannel when you read the old testament like Deuteronomy you can see reported speeches that are attributed to Moses all the time. You can clearly see that somebody wrote them and credited Moses with it.
@@abk6877 in every legend you will see different personalities
Very interesting and informative interview, thanks
Thanks for listening
Thank you very much...inspiring me...
I hope more dialog lecture like this...
Greeting from Indonesia
Interesting conversation. Glad to get a birdseye view of current scholarship.
It's like the Christian gospels: a lot of folks wrote them, but someone collated them. In the case of the Pentateuch the one who collated them rewrote them to a certain Hebrew language style of a certain century. _(In the case of the Gospels, there are four different collators, but that is irrelevant here)_
Ma fascineaza sa ascult si alte religii IN special POPORUL ALES A LUI DUMNEZEU.Ma iertati. Am si eu o intrebare. DACA APARE UN SFANT CA CEI DIN PATERICUL EGIPTEAN, VIETILE SFINTILOR si umbla cu cerurile si DUMNEZEU CUVANTUL adica SFANTA TREIME, TATAL ,FIUL SI DUHUL SFANT SI CU FECIOARA MARIA NASCATOARE DE DUMNEZEU pe pamant care va fi raspunsul si demonstratia voastra? SI DACA AR DESCHIDE PRIMUL CER ? SI DACA AR SPUNE CA NOUL IERUSALIM ESTE IN CERURI AR FI OARE CREZUT ? SANATATE TUTUROR!
Sounds pompous that you would assume you need many people to start writing things down. You don't need many people to subject them to rule and then to keep a record of who has and hasn't paid.
Fantastic. Thank you.
Glad you liked it!
I have never understood the idea that Gd gave the bible to Moses or that he wrote it himself
GREAT video. Two fantastic scholars. Great points on Genesis and Exodus.
Yes they are! Thank you 🙏
Thank you, sirs!
It is nice to see open discussion on a subject so many view through the lens of their respective churches, synagogues or self-professed hatred of them.
Thank you 😊
לא לשכוח לקחת זאת בחשבון אם וכאשר תנוסח חוקה לישראל.
RE: Mr. Knohl's perspective that no 'written' Torah record Could Be written before literacy o reading and writing. The same can be said today of Catholicism with all The Vatican's False doctrines as an illiterate church is an easy church to rule! Against all of this stands- (Hab.2.4 "Behold, his soul which is lifted up is Not upright in him, but the just shall live by Faith'- (Heb. 'emonah'). (Mat.11.25 ''At that time Yeshua. declared, "I thank thee, Father, YAHWEH of Heaven and earth, that Thou has hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes- yes- Father for such was your gracious will.")
Do you think the bible could be written when people couldn't read or write? Who would copy the manuscripts (the originals would inevitably decay)?
The early church was an illiterate church, too. And the words Yeshua and Yahweh exist nowhere in the New Testament.
That's not even the question, you are both waaaay off. Pentateuch is the Greek word for Torah and refers specify to the Greek Translation of Torah.
So, the question "when was the Pentateuch written" means "when was the Greek Translation of Torah written". You don't even understand your own question.
Answer; the Pentateuch was written down at the same time as Torah was written down, 270 BC in Alexandria at the Order of Ptolemy II. Prior to this, Torah was scattered and oral.
No, Pentateuch does not specifically refer to the Greek translation but refers instead to both Hebrew text and all translations. Like the Book of Isaiah doesn't refer to only text in one language but to the Hebrew text of the book and to all translations.
OP these are two of the most respected scholars in this particular field with decades of experience. Perhaps thinking they were unable to understand the concept of what they were talking about could be seen as a touch arrogant? As Peter points out, you are wrong in your assumption.
@@somniumisdreaming.so. What. Is. Your. Point? 🎉🎉🎉
Just. Because. These. Are
Proffessrs. Doesn't. Mesn
They. Are. Absolute. On. Their. Opinions conclusions 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
@@גקליןיפה I didn't say that but they know a heck of a lot compared to any amateur. They are professionals in their fields not armchair wannabes. What's with the grammar, are you ok?
Are they talking about Torah or Tanach?
The Pentateuch/Torah
Very interesting
Thank you 🙏
O. K. So.. Who wrote what and when ?
The Torah itself does NOT say that it was written by Moses. It is his Prophetic teachings, but the final script of the Torah was not written by him. Scholars should do a better work understanding what the Torah clearly says, otherwise they are fighting themselves.
@@1995yuda So, who wrote what and when?
@@1995yuda Of course it was!
@@user-bo8nb2mi Read the Torah. It isn't told by Moses. The Torah itself makes it perfectly clear. It contains the Teachings of Moses, what God taught him, but the completed Torah we have was not written by Moses. Our Sages have talked about this, this is nothing new. Just study the Torah and read what our Sages said.
@@OldBadger1 Probably the Priests. It was compiled from Oral Traditions and written through time.
In the beginning was the word. Thanks Jesus.
Thank you for this interesting talk, especially
- 37:00 to 42:20 about the "anti-monarchism" of Deuteronomic writings and then
- after 42:20 about the future of bible scholarship and bridging the gap between scholars in Europe on one side and in US and Israel on the other side.
. . . It is not only the Book of Deuteronomy but the whole Deuteronomistic History some European scholars want to locate to Babylon and later. For that, they deny a larger influence of refugees from the Northern kingdom in Jerusalem that could otherwise create some anti-monarchic literature.
. . . Personally, I tend more to Finkelstein's view: the creation of literature is greatly helped by a good economy, which existed only from ~800BC(begin of widespread writing) to 722BC in the Northern Kingdom, from 750BC to 586BC in the Southern Kingdom, and after 165BC under the Hasmoneans. The intermediate, poorer times lend themselves more to conserving, compiling, and redacting existing literature fragments. Some great creation happened, too, of course, like Deutero-Isaiah.
Thank you!
@40:10 Knohl emphasised "reality is reality": if you work at the court, you don't write against the king. - True. But why should we think the "anti-monarchists" worked at the court? I would expect them rather to stay and work within their own circles of northern refugees in Judah, at least for the first 50 years.
. . . Wasn't the difficulty northern refugees experienced in Judah comparable to the difficulty Judahites experienced in Babylonian Exile? Why would the latter, within their own circles, write anti-monarchist books but not the former?
. . . For at least one anti-monarchist book, the Book of Hosea, a development/rewrite in the circles of the northern refugees in Judah seems more likely than in the circles in Babylonian Exile. Because Hosea was one of their own, and they brought his writings with them.
. . . In the latter part of the 7th century BC, the descendents of the refugees were better integrated in Judahite society, maybe even fully integrated through frequent intermarriage. Then would be the time to write Jerusalem into the Book of Kings as the only place of legitimate worship.
are we supposed to believe that Moses filled the nile river with blood? the nile river filled with blood? that Methuselah lived for 900 years?
Neither Knohl nor Schmid said this.
yes they said it in 55:59
@@Nomad1992-Israel - the video stops at 52min and something.
@@Achill101 time is a concept invented by men
@@Nomad1992-Israel - but it is very useful, and convention requires to abide by it. If you want to live without the concept of time, Good Luck.
Intersting listening to jews talk about imaginary friends
Professor Schmid from Swiss
@@KEDEMChannel I would advise against responding to the blatantly antisemitic troll. Unless it serves the algorithm. Then bait away.
@@juliano9566 how is it antisemetic to be against people believing in things without evidence?
Schmidt is not Jewish. His father was a protestant theologian. Assuming they are both Jewish, while at the same time ignoring that the conversation is not about the existance of god, rather about Bible composition, sounded antisemitic. If it was just atheist banter, I apologize for jumping to conclusions. Either way, Bible studies if pretty amazing, even for atheists, like myself, and its appreciation is entirely independent of belief.
@@juliano9566 A lot of these acedemics give comfort and shelter to the bad ideas in order to make money. Like Bart Ehrman pretending Jesus exists so as not to offend the Christian retards that employ him.