Perfect timing! I told my son about you and how you mentioned you liked Shohaku Okumura. As a Muslim with Sufi leanings, I find that you and Shohaku Okumura help me express aspects of Islam and Islamic spirituality better. Approaching Islam as a practice rather than a 'religion' maybe be closer to how the path was intended to be lived.
Sad to hear of Zuiko's passing. I sat with her in Cedar Rapids several times. She had a little three legged orange cat who snuggled up in the sleeves of her robe. Good memories... 🙏
I also stay away from institutions. I followed a teacher, btw, that insisted that there be no formal institution and hierarchy. It was a small, extremely private group and focused on mostly Chinese Ch’an teachings. The thing was that in absence of a formal hierarchy, guess who’s the boss? And that boss can slip up and be a dictator in a moment of indiscretion. I was asked to leave, but believe me, it was mutual at that point. There’s no recourse in that case, just judgment coming from one direction -and with finality. Not what you think of as compassionate, and I strongly feel it didn’t come from a good place. Still, I counted my blessings, of which there were many, and felt wonderful freedom of beginners mind. Something was freed then. Grateful, for sure, but would not go back.
"There’s no recourse in that case, just judgment coming from one direction -and with finality. Not what you think of as compassionate, and I strongly feel it didn’t come from a good place." Exactly, the teacher is not interested in 'saving all beings' or even all human beings and not even their own students. His only interest is in maintaining his authority and your obedience. Without that...everything descends into chaos.
Another insightful talk. Very helpful. You weave it all together! And thank you Ziggy. signed, Actively investigating ordination.. Syracuse NY From Cleveland Once lived in Youngstown Have been to Barberton and Akron.. and have your books
I also wanted to tell you that Bhuddism I noticed that a majority of Bhuddism is marketed as a self help and talks about self help topics which is very similar to a Mega church style sermon.
You're talking about Egregores from Western Occult Terminology. That a Group ov people will have a Personality for the Group, almost as if there was a Entity Created when the Group came together.
every zen center i have seen runs into contested control of the institution at some point with vicious insider fighting this, imo, is a general characteristic of religious institutions and what you might expect given the usual emphasis on social control
I wonder if there is a governance structure that could help these incidents go more smoothly. Maybe if congregations simply elect their ministers from among qualified candidates, there will be greater peace.
I knew Zuiko sensei briefly 30+ years ago before she ordained. She was originally a student of Katagiri Roshi's in Minneapolis. I wish I had known her better.
Something I've always wondered about is if in Japan/China there are many different Zen 'Orders'? Here they usually organising around a specific teacher but within the same school? e.g. in Europ/US we have 'Mountains and Rivers Order', ' 'Order of Buddhist Contemplatives', 'Soto Zen Buddhist Association' etc... - they are all Soto Zen but acting independently as different institutions?! im not saying its good or bad and im glad that western Zen is doing its own thing but wondering how this compares to how things are/have been organised in Japan/China?
9:00: "Some of the best Zen teachers are those you never heard of." Right. Like, who's heard of Chaitanya Peter Cutler? I asked him if he would like to meet you, but he is perfectly content. No need to meet anyone. Does he care so few attend his classes? Not at all.
Hey, to indulge in dualism for a minute, what's the best organization in the world do you reckon? If asked, i'd prolly say it starts at bad and goes downhill from there, but what's your perspective?
Now i'm not sure if i meant organizational structure, or Organization That Exists. I'm not even sure if i was making a distinction when i asked the question. When it comes to coffee, i might be violating a precept... ;}P>
I dunno... some people are really good at selling people meditation, I think theres a place for that... as long as there are also deep practitioners and teachers...
I like the concept of teacher, not a leader. I prefer to be alone, since institutional religion also repulses me, unconsciously makes the upper lip curl in judgement. You come to your teacher for lessons to practice in the real world so you can learn to adapt to your conditions. "Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment chop wood, carry water."
A good Zen teacher would be someone who teaches the importance of physical flexibility and the classic source texts...not their own ideas or ideas that have become associated with Zen over the last few decades. That would exclude... 1. Anything political. 2. Any reference to living in the 'present moment'...which is what insects and people with Alzheimer's do. None of this is taught in any Sutra. 3. Anything based on temporal trends or personal preferences. Buddhist truth is eternal and universal...meaning it doesnt change from year to year or person to person. 4. Any notion of a 'goalless' practice. Again, this is a recent development in Buddhism hatched by people who want an excuse for attaining nothing and just generally being lazy.
I think you might want to revisit the Pali Canon suttas if you don’t think the Buddha taught present-moment awareness in meditation. Everything is based on personal preferences and unique teachings of a given master are more prominent in Zen than most other traditions, but really they’re prominent in all traditions. Lastly, Dogen taught that zazen itself WAS enlightenment. Pure land teachers often believe no practice is necessary at all, or that chanting the nembutsu (generally their focus) is not even a practice but the working of Amida Buddha. These are all 13th century Japanese ideas, nothing new. So… are they lazy too?
@@michigandersea3485 " Dogen taught that zazen itself WAS enlightenment." Yes but this teaching is contradicted by the events of his own life and the lives of countless other masters. It is nowhere to be found in the CaoDong teachings he learned in China. Never mind 're-visiting' the Pali Suttas...you haven't visited them at all.
In my experience there really are no good teachers- just good teaching. If you place a "teacher" in isolation with no other people, then are they even a teacher? Good teaching arises between a "student" and a "teacher" when the dynamic is right. Im not trying to be all Zen here. I saw this in school and technical college. I may depend to a degree on the student's energy. Are you stuck and looking for direction or on a path already and looking to gather "wisdom" along the way?
Could be. But I think there are some teachers who are consistently able to enter into whatever that is. Maybe not 100% of the time, but more than can be chalked up to random chance.
"For me its the only tradition...but a lot of that has to do with the individual people I met." Defining a whole tradition by association with a few individuals you happen to like???
@@HardcoreZen Universal truth has already been discovered...at least to the extent that human beings are capable of grasping it. A more advanced species on some alien world might be able to grasp MORE of it. The notion that everyone has their own 'personal truth' based on personal preference is a WOKE idea born in the crucible of narcissism.
@@HardcoreZen Even if you were surrounded by a hundred people who had found universal truth, not a single one of them could give it to you...nor would you take it if they could. You prefer to follow Cosmo the cat....back into the house.
Perfect timing! I told my son about you and how you mentioned you liked Shohaku Okumura. As a Muslim with Sufi leanings, I find that you and Shohaku Okumura help me express aspects of Islam and Islamic spirituality better. Approaching Islam as a practice rather than a 'religion' maybe be closer to how the path was intended to be lived.
Sufis are the Zen Masters of The Middle East Rumi Ibn Arabi Al Hallaj are up there with Bodhidharma Hui Neng Huang Po Dogen
Sad to hear of Zuiko's passing. I sat with her in Cedar Rapids several times. She had a little three legged orange cat who snuggled up in the sleeves of her robe. Good memories... 🙏
Cedar Rapids Zen Center is currently searching for a resident teacher (as per the website)
I also stay away from institutions. I followed a teacher, btw, that insisted that there be no formal institution and hierarchy. It was a small, extremely private group and focused on mostly Chinese Ch’an teachings. The thing was that in absence of a formal hierarchy, guess who’s the boss? And that boss can slip up and be a dictator in a moment of indiscretion. I was asked to leave, but believe me, it was mutual at that point. There’s no recourse in that case, just judgment coming from one direction -and with finality. Not what you think of as compassionate, and I strongly feel it didn’t come from a good place. Still, I counted my blessings, of which there were many, and felt wonderful freedom of beginners mind. Something was freed then. Grateful, for sure, but would not go back.
"There’s no recourse in that case, just judgment coming from one direction -and with finality. Not what you think of as compassionate, and I strongly feel it didn’t come from a good place."
Exactly, the teacher is not interested in 'saving all beings' or even all human beings and not even their own students. His only interest is in maintaining his authority and your obedience. Without that...everything descends into chaos.
Julie was her birth name and Tsugen Narasaki Roshi was her teacher.
Your video about ones thoughts simply being thoughts is enough for you to make this list!
Another insightful talk. Very helpful. You weave it all together! And thank you Ziggy.
signed,
Actively investigating ordination..
Syracuse NY
From Cleveland
Once lived in Youngstown
Have been to Barberton and Akron..
and have your books
Very informative upload. Perhaps i will check out the Cedar Rapids Zen Center sometime.
Ive often called what you describe as "institutional ego." I've also seen it undermine practice environments.
I also wanted to tell you that Bhuddism I noticed that a majority of Bhuddism is marketed as a self help and talks about self help topics which is very similar to a Mega church style sermon.
You're talking about Egregores from Western Occult Terminology. That a Group ov people will have a Personality for the Group, almost as if there was a Entity Created when the Group came together.
every zen center i have seen runs into contested control of the institution at some point with vicious insider fighting
this, imo, is a general characteristic of religious institutions and what you might expect given the usual emphasis on social control
I wonder if there is a governance structure that could help these incidents go more smoothly. Maybe if congregations simply elect their ministers from among qualified candidates, there will be greater peace.
@@benbrown1366 i think a truer model is russian politics, brad got "defenestrated" by the ACZC
Yeah prolly never gonna have a real zen teacher or sangha unless it just happens so i'll just happily zentertain myself
Hey, I have an idea: how about opening a small zen center near downtown LA? Regards to Ziggy.
Meanwhile 20 years later ......
I knew Zuiko sensei briefly 30+ years ago before she ordained. She was originally a student of Katagiri Roshi's in Minneapolis. I wish I had known her better.
THAT'S HOW DONATIONS ARE CREATED! IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT THE MONEY!
Something I've always wondered about is if in Japan/China there are many different Zen 'Orders'? Here they usually organising around a specific teacher but within the same school? e.g. in Europ/US we have 'Mountains and Rivers Order', ' 'Order of Buddhist Contemplatives', 'Soto Zen Buddhist Association' etc... - they are all Soto Zen but acting independently as different institutions?! im not saying its good or bad and im glad that western Zen is doing its own thing but wondering how this compares to how things are/have been organised in Japan/China?
9:00: "Some of the best Zen teachers are those you never heard of."
Right. Like, who's heard of Chaitanya Peter Cutler?
I asked him if he would like to meet you, but he is perfectly content.
No need to meet anyone.
Does he care so few attend his classes? Not at all.
Best to the magnificent Ziggy
Actually, a great video. Viva Ziggy!!
Thank you for this! Know any good places in Las Vegas?
Hey, to indulge in dualism for a minute, what's the best organization in the world do you reckon? If asked, i'd prolly say it starts at bad and goes downhill from there, but what's your perspective?
I really don't know. I try to steer clear of organizations.
Now i'm not sure if i meant organizational structure, or Organization That Exists. I'm not even sure if i was making a distinction when i asked the question. When it comes to coffee, i might be violating a precept... ;}P>
I dunno... some people are really good at selling people meditation, I think theres a place for that... as long as there are also deep practitioners and teachers...
Yes. Meditation is usually good medicine for almost everyone who tries it . . . there is decency in the simplicity of simply selling meditation.
Was the Led Zeppelin book any good?
When you have sh*t on yhe tip of your nose, everything smells like sh*t!
True story!😂
I like the concept of teacher, not a leader. I prefer to be alone, since institutional religion also repulses me, unconsciously makes the upper lip curl in judgement. You come to your teacher for lessons to practice in the real world so you can learn to adapt to your conditions. "Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment chop wood, carry water."
Have you ever studied Ken Wilber ?
Read my book Hardcore Zen. Initially I wanted to use a fake name for Ken Wilber, but my editor insisted on using his actual name.
@@HardcoreZen What chapter? I haven't read Hardcore Zen in years, but would like to go back and revisit where you wrote about him.
@@intimacywithallthings I really don't remember. It's in there somewhere...
Ziggy has energy....good! (Better than me!)
A good Zen teacher would be someone who teaches the importance of physical flexibility and the classic source texts...not their own ideas or ideas that have become associated with Zen over the last few decades.
That would exclude...
1. Anything political.
2. Any reference to living in the 'present moment'...which is what insects and people with Alzheimer's do. None of this is taught in any Sutra.
3. Anything based on temporal trends or personal preferences. Buddhist truth is eternal and universal...meaning it doesnt change from year to year or person to person.
4. Any notion of a 'goalless' practice. Again, this is a recent development in Buddhism hatched by people who want an excuse for attaining nothing and just generally being lazy.
I think you might want to revisit the Pali Canon suttas if you don’t think the Buddha taught present-moment awareness in meditation.
Everything is based on personal preferences and unique teachings of a given master are more prominent in Zen than most other traditions, but really they’re prominent in all traditions.
Lastly, Dogen taught that zazen itself WAS enlightenment. Pure land teachers often believe no practice is necessary at all, or that chanting the nembutsu (generally their focus) is not even a practice but the working of Amida Buddha. These are all 13th century Japanese ideas, nothing new. So… are they lazy too?
@@michigandersea3485
" Dogen taught that zazen itself WAS enlightenment."
Yes but this teaching is contradicted by the events of his own life and the lives of countless other masters. It is nowhere to be found in the CaoDong teachings he learned in China.
Never mind 're-visiting' the Pali Suttas...you haven't visited them at all.
Hopefully he didn't get stung or bitten by something
The thing we pulled from his paw looks like a long plant thorn. He seems to be getting better day by day.
@@HardcoreZen Glad to hear it :)
In my experience there really are no good teachers- just good teaching. If you place a "teacher" in isolation with no other people, then are they even a teacher? Good teaching arises between a "student" and a "teacher" when the dynamic is right.
Im not trying to be all Zen here. I saw this in school and technical college. I may depend to a degree on the student's energy. Are you stuck and looking for direction or on a path already and looking to gather "wisdom" along the way?
Could be. But I think there are some teachers who are consistently able to enter into whatever that is. Maybe not 100% of the time, but more than can be chalked up to random chance.
yes Brad, I agree that Sotoshu is a horrible institution,; they are more like yakuza than disciples of Buddha Shakyamuni
Some people call them a "guild of funeral directors".
You equate customer and patient - why do you think they are the same ?
Pema Chodron, Daido Lori 🙏🏻 and his successor Shogun Arnold, I've oft wished to encounter their practice... ❤️🌎🙏🏻
Get better Ziggy!
Thank you!
Zen centers should have a drive-thru and offer fries and coke with their enlightenment.
pass on the coke to be honest,....wait.
Too much coke and you will squirm during zazen
"For me its the only tradition...but a lot of that has to do with the individual people I met."
Defining a whole tradition by association with a few individuals you happen to like???
No. I didn’t say anything like that!
@@HardcoreZen Its the worst mistake you can make...seeking personal preferences rather than universal truth.
@@Teller3448 OK. Let me know when you find Universal Truth.
@@HardcoreZen Universal truth has already been discovered...at least to the extent that human beings are capable of grasping it. A more advanced species on some alien world might be able to grasp MORE of it. The notion that everyone has their own 'personal truth' based on personal preference is a WOKE idea born in the crucible of narcissism.
@@HardcoreZen Even if you were surrounded by a hundred people who had found universal truth, not a single one of them could give it to you...nor would you take it if they could. You prefer to follow Cosmo the cat....back into the house.