Most of my actions are CRF. This includes Zermatt, ARC, Kimber, Sako 85 and FN Mauser (Husqvarna). One thing is to reduce the chance of double feeding, potential (unlikely) problems with spring plunger etc, but my main reasons for prefering CRF is for convenience in the field, at the range and when reloading. I load and empty my rifle much more often than I actually fire it, and I find that emptying a gun where the case is always under spring pressure increases the chances of loosing the case and making noices. I also find it easier to remove the case using one hand with CFR. At the range, CRF gives me the opportynity to decide how far my precious brass is ejected when I cycle the action. It is also nice not having to remove the ejector plunger to get an accurate distance to the lands. In my experience the main factor for reliability is the construction of the extractor. My TL3, being semi CRF with a plate extractor, has given me issues many times on the range (I never use tight cases for hunting) when chambering tight (neck sized brass). It will then have problems extracting the case. This has been an issue a few times with my 85 as well, but not with any of the other before mentioned actions, including ARC Nucleus and Archimedes. It is perfectly inderstandable that manufacturers will use a system that will give less calls to customer service. The risk of customers having issues is, of course, much greater when the manufacturer is not building the whole rifle, including bottom metal and magazine. A few words about magazine solutions and feeding: Double stack is more difficult to get working than center feed and especially when you mix in CRF. Look at the Sako 75, 85 ond 90. A more user friendly magazine solution is difficult to get as far as my experience goes. Five rounds of 308 in the mag, with the ability to top feed with the mag in the rifle and removable when needed. And lets mot forget the ease of loading a double stack mag (eg AIAW) compared to center feed mags. The market really needs a 5 rd AIAW mag for hunting rifle builds. Is there anything wrong with push feed? Not in my opinion. Personal preferance is the key. Two plungers is probably be better than one from a reliability standpoint, but as long as extraction is good one can always remove the fired case manually.
Those Hammerhead actions are nice and heard they are one of the smoothest and lightest 90 degree throws. Until very recently BAT was an unknown in the tactical/ field style competitions. Even now only a handful out there… funny thing though there’s a butt load of those CRF actions that everyone on this were wondering about. 😉
Great podcast ...I have to say that I have, had, and still own at least 10 BAT Actions in the past and by far they are the finest pieces of engineering art and precision bar none!...my latest build is based on a New TR and Bruce will be doing this barrel soon. Ive been there done that, and now only use BAT. Aloha from Maui Eric
The controled round feed goes back to a timr when we didnt have the temoerature stable powders that we have today. And under heavy recoil the cartridges in the magazine the bullets would seat themselves back in the case cousing compressef loads creating high pressure stuck cases in the chamber
Great podcast, thank you. Regarding trigger hangars on modern Remington 700 footprint actions, there are three potential reasons that I can think off why a designer might decide to incorporate it into an action. Some of these were mentioned in the podcast briefly: 1. To allow for trigger timing. This enables the user to adjust the position of the sear to get more or less cock on close. It just affects how the action feels when used and does not affect accucary, as long as it does not drastically reduce the striker fall distance signaficantly. 2. For actions with full diameter bolts, the trigger needs to sit lower, thus the trigger pins need to be lower. But it is physically not possible as the holes will break through the action outside diameter. To prevent this, the designer either need to use a trigger hangar, or machine protrusions on the underside to allow for extra material to machine the holes. The latter might be more expensive, hence the hangar. 3. Less common these days, but with the right stock/chassis, it allows the shooter to remove the trigger without having to remove the action from the stock. Thus the positives of a hangar are: 1. More adjustability. 2. Allow for the use of full diameter bolts as well. The negatives of a hangar are: 1. Most stocks require modification and sometimes the hangar itself needs to modified to fit some triggers. Arguably actions with hangars are thus not true Remington 700 footprint. 2. More complex and more parts that could fail. Really enjoy your podcasts. Regards Hanno
As I’m listening to your podcast I had an incident of a frozen trigger. Of course it was a brown bear charge. It’s a long story I’ll try and make it short. Brother and I always went mt goat hunting for the week after Christmas. Live in Southeast Alaska. It was a high pressure. Low teens/single digit temps. Snow week earlier. Blue sky. Saw some goats on a cliff next to trees. Hiked halfway up hill, brother hid behind old spruce I was going on top of cliff to scare goats past him. As I got on top in muskeg snow was powder/ waste deep beautiful! As I was wading I seen where an animal broke trail, walked to it much better walking. Heard huffing behind me. Ever see a dog go through really deep powder, brown going same towards me. I really felt in control. Had bear tag. 175 gr partitions loaded hot. Sighted in to 200. Its stops 30 ‘ away and try’s smelling me. Wind is from him to me. Ok. If I hold below chin a ways. Up or down I got his neck. Saftey off. Squeeze trigger. I squeezed so hard remember the gun going right. Nothing. Saftey was off!! Now he goes to right behind tree to smell me. Took out shell, breathed into saftey, click. It works. For a second I thought about going after it but decided to get out of there. All I could think of was I had gun in tent and burned gas stove. Metal condensation and it froze my Saftey inside lever. Had a close call
I own an ARC Archimedes that is extremely consistent with precision and feeding/running tinny 6mm BR handloads. Excellent rifle action. I have a friend with a Zermatt aswell that loves it. I also run a Lone peak Fuzion and would love to try a Bat eventually. Love the podcast guys.
Snowy Mountain Rifles has a defiance control round feed action. They offer on there build. Imho push feed is the easy button. To many companies making good push feed actions that are top notch.
Controlled round feed is the only choice for short cartridge. That’s why I like them. My origin will feed a piece of 6br brass with no bullet. That’s how well it works. No magazine alterations Lee gardner precision
Have you actually checked the best named chassis stocks? They absolutely need to be skim bedded no matter who makes it. Your leaving accuracy on the table wo bedding
"We'll never make an action lighter than a Vesper." Guess I found out why I'll never buy a Bat action. 🤣🤦 I take the lightest possible when I'm hiking 70 miles and 10,000+ elevation gain on sheep hunts.
Smoke and mirrors my A#$, The Mauser 98 is the Standard for all bolt guns, Admittedly it takes more time to build a CRF action ,But done properly it will feed with near 100% reliability. Push feed are much (Cheaper) to build ,I own both, Push and CRF.
Considering you guys are supposed to be people of "knowledge" why don't you try Controlled round feed before condemning it? Don't be the buffheads that you criticise. Just like you guys make custom rifles a well tuned CRF system can be fantastic. A bit more actual knowledge and less uninformed onions would be appreciated 👍
You would think having veteran action manufactures of 30+ years would be the next closest thing to hard facts; however, it seems that wasn't sufficient. Well, at least you were able to hear our closing remarks: Bruce- "Yeah just remember that some of these things are peoples opinions, including my own" Ryan- "Oh I have a lot of opinion's, and I am not an expert" If you have some information or data to provide explaining why nearly all custom action manufacturers do not use controlled round feed we would love to hear it. Please email this info to podcast@shoot2hunt.com and we will share with our audience. Thank you for your kind words.
@@shoot2hunt i think good podcast could be an action round table with AJ Goddard of Zermatt Arms and Ted Karagias from American Rifle Company representing CRF and then Bruce and some others for the push side of things. I think bringing the best minds of both sides could bring together alot of folks on the various ends of the action spectrum
Most of my actions are CRF. This includes Zermatt, ARC, Kimber, Sako 85 and FN Mauser (Husqvarna). One thing is to reduce the chance of double feeding, potential (unlikely) problems with spring plunger etc, but my main reasons for prefering CRF is for convenience in the field, at the range and when reloading. I load and empty my rifle much more often than I actually fire it, and I find that emptying a gun where the case is always under spring pressure increases the chances of loosing the case and making noices. I also find it easier to remove the case using one hand with CFR.
At the range, CRF gives me the opportynity to decide how far my precious brass is ejected when I cycle the action. It is also nice not having to remove the ejector plunger to get an accurate distance to the lands.
In my experience the main factor for reliability is the construction of the extractor. My TL3, being semi CRF with a plate extractor, has given me issues many times on the range (I never use tight cases for hunting) when chambering tight (neck sized brass). It will then have problems extracting the case. This has been an issue a few times with my 85 as well, but not with any of the other before mentioned actions, including ARC Nucleus and Archimedes.
It is perfectly inderstandable that manufacturers will use a system that will give less calls to customer service. The risk of customers having issues is, of course, much greater when the manufacturer is not building the whole rifle, including bottom metal and magazine.
A few words about magazine solutions and feeding: Double stack is more difficult to get working than center feed and especially when you mix in CRF. Look at the Sako 75, 85 ond 90. A more user friendly magazine solution is difficult to get as far as my experience goes. Five rounds of 308 in the mag, with the ability to top feed with the mag in the rifle and removable when needed. And lets mot forget the ease of loading a double stack mag (eg AIAW) compared to center feed mags. The market really needs a 5 rd AIAW mag for hunting rifle builds.
Is there anything wrong with push feed? Not in my opinion. Personal preferance is the key. Two plungers is probably be better than one from a reliability standpoint, but as long as extraction is good one can always remove the fired case manually.
Great content, keep it coming! Saving up for my Guano build!
Also, can’t forget Bighorn! Their TL & Origin actions are Controlled Round Feed (CRF).
Just picked up my bat machine hammerhead action and dropped it off with the gunsmith can't wait to get it. It's such beautiful work!
Havent seen much first hand feedback on these. How do you like it so far?
@Vantage88 I literally just got it today and dropped it off at smith it looks and feels great though
Those Hammerhead actions are nice and heard they are one of the smoothest and lightest 90 degree throws.
Until very recently BAT was an unknown in the tactical/ field style competitions.
Even now only a handful out there… funny thing though there’s a butt load of those CRF actions that everyone on this were wondering about. 😉
@@joeygreen7854 technically they are a 2 lug 75° it is pretty awesome though
Great podcast ...I have to say that I have, had, and still own at least 10 BAT Actions in the past and by far they are the finest pieces of engineering art and precision bar none!...my latest build is based on a New TR and Bruce will be doing this barrel soon. Ive been there done that, and now only use BAT.
Aloha from Maui
Eric
The controled round feed goes back to a timr when we didnt have the temoerature stable powders that we have today. And under heavy recoil the cartridges in the magazine the bullets would seat themselves back in the case cousing compressef loads creating high pressure stuck cases in the chamber
Great podcast, thank you. Regarding trigger hangars on modern Remington 700 footprint actions, there are three potential reasons that I can think off why a designer might decide to incorporate it into an action. Some of these were mentioned in the podcast briefly:
1. To allow for trigger timing. This enables the user to adjust the position of the sear to get more or less cock on close. It just affects how the action feels when used and does not affect accucary, as long as it does not drastically reduce the striker fall distance signaficantly.
2. For actions with full diameter bolts, the trigger needs to sit lower, thus the trigger pins need to be lower. But it is physically not possible as the holes will break through the action outside diameter. To prevent this, the designer either need to use a trigger hangar, or machine protrusions on the underside to allow for extra material to machine the holes. The latter might be more expensive, hence the hangar.
3. Less common these days, but with the right stock/chassis, it allows the shooter to remove the trigger without having to remove the action from the stock.
Thus the positives of a hangar are:
1. More adjustability.
2. Allow for the use of full diameter bolts as well.
The negatives of a hangar are:
1. Most stocks require modification and sometimes the hangar itself needs to modified to fit some triggers. Arguably actions with hangars are thus not true Remington 700 footprint.
2. More complex and more parts that could fail.
Really enjoy your podcasts.
Regards
Hanno
As I’m listening to your podcast I had an incident of a frozen trigger. Of course it was a brown bear charge. It’s a long story I’ll try and make it short. Brother and I always went mt goat hunting for the week after Christmas. Live in Southeast Alaska. It was a high pressure. Low teens/single digit temps. Snow week earlier. Blue sky. Saw some goats on a cliff next to trees. Hiked halfway up hill, brother hid behind old spruce I was going on top of cliff to scare goats past him. As I got on top in muskeg snow was powder/ waste deep beautiful! As I was wading I seen where an animal broke trail, walked to it much better walking. Heard huffing behind me. Ever see a dog go through really deep powder, brown going same towards me. I really felt in control. Had bear tag. 175 gr partitions loaded hot. Sighted in to 200. Its stops 30 ‘ away and try’s smelling me. Wind is from him to me. Ok. If I hold below chin a ways. Up or down I got his neck. Saftey off. Squeeze trigger. I squeezed so hard remember the gun going right. Nothing. Saftey was off!! Now he goes to right behind tree to smell me. Took out shell, breathed into saftey, click. It works. For a second I thought about going after it but decided to get out of there. All I could think of was I had gun in tent and burned gas stove. Metal condensation and it froze my Saftey inside lever. Had a close call
Yikes. Close1. Good thing u had the wind. Good chance he was awake cuz he's starving. Hard to sleep w your asshole chewing on ur back bone. 😂
I believe Defiance had a controlled round feed but stopped production to use machine to manufacturer more desirable parts
Erik Cortina won the F-class worlds for the individual side of things using a Borden Action and Lapua brass using a 6.5 prc necked up to 7mm
I own an ARC Archimedes that is extremely consistent with precision and feeding/running tinny 6mm BR handloads. Excellent rifle action. I have a friend with a Zermatt aswell that loves it. I also run a Lone peak Fuzion and would love to try a Bat eventually. Love the podcast guys.
A Short Vesper would be badass for the 7mm SAW II ! By WTO. Cool interview with these guys; have never heard anything but good things about BAT
Snowy Mountain Rifles has a defiance control round feed action. They offer on there build. Imho push feed is the easy button. To many companies making good push feed actions that are top notch.
Controlled round feed is the only choice for short cartridge. That’s why I like them. My origin will feed a piece of 6br brass with no bullet. That’s how well it works. No magazine alterations
Lee gardner precision
Defiance does make a controlled round action.
This was a cool interview, but it's amazing how little a munitions company understands about pressure, primer cratering, primer failure, etc
Adg brass and 7saum? No most are using Lapua brass and either 284 or 7/6.5prc in that South African f class.
should make a CT vesper
Have you actually checked the best named chassis stocks? They absolutely need to be skim bedded no matter who makes it. Your leaving accuracy on the table wo bedding
"We'll never make an action lighter than a Vesper." Guess I found out why I'll never buy a Bat action. 🤣🤦 I take the lightest possible when I'm hiking 70 miles and 10,000+ elevation gain on sheep hunts.
Smoke and mirrors my A#$, The Mauser 98 is the Standard for all bolt guns, Admittedly it takes more time to build a CRF action ,But done properly it will feed with near 100% reliability. Push feed are much (Cheaper) to build ,I own both, Push and CRF.
Considering you guys are supposed to be people of "knowledge" why don't you try Controlled round feed before condemning it? Don't be the buffheads that you criticise. Just like you guys make custom rifles a well tuned CRF system can be fantastic. A bit more actual knowledge and less uninformed onions would be appreciated 👍
You would think having veteran action manufactures of 30+ years would be the next closest thing to hard facts; however, it seems that wasn't sufficient. Well, at least you were able to hear our closing remarks:
Bruce- "Yeah just remember that some of these things are peoples opinions, including my own"
Ryan- "Oh I have a lot of opinion's, and I am not an expert"
If you have some information or data to provide explaining why nearly all custom action manufacturers do not use controlled round feed we would love to hear it. Please email this info to podcast@shoot2hunt.com and we will share with our audience. Thank you for your kind words.
@@shoot2hunt i think good podcast could be an action round table with AJ Goddard of Zermatt Arms and Ted Karagias from American Rifle Company representing CRF and then Bruce and some others for the push side of things. I think bringing the best minds of both sides could bring together alot of folks on the various ends of the action spectrum