Looks like a good deal for $30. The pros - accurate and fast. Cons, steel sheet required and setup seems difficult. Thanks for your continued research and videos on subjects that don't seemed to be covered by other channels
That is a really great product! Super fast scanning, so for the larger beds it would really safe some time. I'll have to look into one once the Trident is built, maybe even incorporate the mount into the tool head, maybe near the part cooling duct. And thanks for the python tip, that is extremely useful!
Thank you for this, I have this sensor at home more than 6 months now, and could not manage to work. Now I think I have a new standard to make it work.
Super important to realize that a sensor or mesh can be totally wrong as well. I had this with the settings for my BLTouch and Ender, it looked like my Ender-glass bed was warped and it never created a nice layer. Until I just started to assume the bed was flat and the probe wrong, manually leveled and disabled the probe... perfect first layer! :) I eventually had to resort to 3 probe points per location and a different mesh technique. Way slower than this though, but I would be as wary now after having learned this.
Keep in mind your Bltouch is riding on wheels/ rails that may not be perfectly flat. I had the same issue with Ender s1 plus on both the original wheels and aftermarket linear rail with only 2 mounts. It artificially introduced warpage to my bed mesh. Long story short, I finally fixed it by mounting the rails directly to the profile and moving my Bltouch to “zero offset” on the y axis. Perfect first layer since then, still slow as hell in leveling compared to this device.
So this probe is 0.12mm from the bed when the probe is on the bed ... that's not even a single layer difference or likely even less than the variation of height of the bed, so I'd be constantly worried of it hitting the printed part during print. I'm running my own variation to the Klicky on my Ender 3 (similar to the KlackEnder) and love that I never have to worry about the print being hit by it (as it just isn't mounted during the print) and how it adapts to any surface-swap, metal or not ...
No idea how this exactly works (maybe something capacitive or inductive). If they could make one that fits around the nozzle they could even real time during the first layer get the bed mesh measured and correct live, no scanning at all.
@ ChrisRiley Hey Chris, I adjust my height until I get my first calibration results in the 100's but everytime i calibrate My second result is less then the first. What am i doing wrong?
Hi Chris, my sensor hight is about 0.6-0.7 but when I do the calibration it's over the 400. How can I fix this because the nozzle is to close the bed thx.
I doesn’t seem to do live adjust in Klipper yet, only Marlin. Looked impressive though. I bought one to tinker with simply based on the speed. I have a large bed (400x400mm), so hoping this would speed up the bed leveling. Thanks for the vids!
Impressive probe, very fast (probing off bed and short in x, mesh_min, mesh_max not set?). I use the mesh graphic to adjust the bed screws to set the bed level... With this probe giving readings in real time, you could have a script to level/trim the bed by adjusting the mount screws in real time...
I was going to order one of these but it has 2 connector options. The web site doesn't do a very good job of explaining the difference. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm going to order one as soon as I can figure out the connector options.
I received this message from Mark: Thank you for purchase BDsensor. please choose version B which the connector is the same as BLtouch, the version A is no longer produced. So there really isn’t a choice.
I can not recommend the bd-sensor in an heated chamber, as it will not work as it should. Have rn in my doomcube with archetype toolhead and monolith gantry, but ones it hits 60 chamber, it’s over. It just give up working
After watching this great video, I purchased one of this BDsensor. After 2 months, it's arrived (in Hungary) However, I have a little configuration problem, and I wouldbe glad if you could help me. I have changed the settings in the printer.cfg file according to the video. (the old sensor was original BLtouch. After restart, the following error reported: "Option 'control_pin' in section 'bltouch' must be specified" (even after I completely delete the BLtouch section) What is missing? Please help me. Thx ain advance.
@@ChrisRiley I rebuilt the printer.cfg from scratch, and it's working. I think the hashtagged auto genereted settings was the problem at the end of the printer.cfg (sorry for my poor english)
So i am curious about something... if someone is using canbus on their printers.... right? would i just need to recompile klipper on the "mainboard" That i am plugging that sensor into? so if i was connecting it up to my sb2209 on my voron, would it only need to be installed on that sb2209? or would i need to install it onto my actual motherboard? or would i need to recompile my motherboard, sb2209, and my canhat?
Do you just download a fresh copy of klipper just so you can reflash the board? Im using a Vcore 3 with RatOS (custom install). Just want to double check before i even buy one
Yes, to make sure the Klipper version is somewhat current so it will work with the BD script. I would check with them before you buy to confirm your version will work.
Hi Chris, thank you for you video, really helpfull for me. My config have one EBB36 CAN Bus and all elements are connected to it. In you video you dont have covered this kind of wiring, could you please update your video with the way to ocompile the new firmware to programm the EBB36 Thank you in advance
@@ChrisRileyYeah, looks promising. I think it could be a good choice for my Fenrir CoreXY, I have a Pinda in the design now, but this should be even easier to fit.
I just ordered this from 3DO in which is located in DK, not sure if they got more in stock, but its a little more local for you. In all honesty, it is exactly the same as the Beacon, the tech is the same, just a different design, but as a difference, the BD Sensor doesn't come with a premium price and a premium shipping cost which is a massive win in my book. I myself were looking into getting the Beacon, but 80 Dollars + 50 Dollars for shipping is just beyond anything i would pay for something like this knowing these type of sensors is usually super cheap. In my opinion the BD Sensor is a clear winner, it hits all the checkmarks in my book, its cheaper, its smaller, its shielded, and it works for both Marlin and Klipper.
Hey Chris. I have noticed some issues with kiauh as of late. I tried to flash klipper on a pi 3b and it keeps failing. I also tried to install 2 instances using kiauh on my pad 7 and also had all kinds of issues. I have heard since the updates that a lot of people are having issues. Is it possible that it is also affecting the kiauh tool? I have been trying for 3 days now with no luck.
Thank you for the video,I got one of these a few months back but never got around to installing,mainly because the lack of information surrouding it. Im using an ender 3 s1 pro with sonic pad,will the bd sensor work on this? As far as im aware it uses klipper and marlin so not sure if it will give me live information? Thank you for your time
Hey, thanks for watching! Either way, I would guess that you will have to reflash the firmware to make it work. I wish it was more strait forward, but it will probably take some work to get it up and going.
Looks like I may just have a bad sensor :( got everything working and the m102 S-1 tells me the info but the light doesn't come on when I bring it close to my PEI bed Update: Looks like bad internal soldering, the sensor came off :/, but I did get to see the light come on, so just need a new sensor!
This doesn't work for be, I've tried following your video, also the steps in github, but I keep getting the error Option 'control_pin' in section 'bltouch' must be specified
@@geraldblindeling4405 the BLTOUCH was already removed. I ended up reflashing my host to a different linux OS, re-installed Klipper and copied over my printer.cfg now it's all working great.
@ChrisRiley I can't get it to work with my mks skipr. I keep getting connection error. Edit: got it working, I had to use the exp 2 pins I used pins pa6 and pa7 on the mks skipr. My pins are 180° off from the mks skipr pins diagram on the github. I found a github issue for the monster8 and it applies to the skipr as well. It's marlin issue 24190. Yes I know it's marlin issue on github buts it a hardware issue.
I tried everything I could, I'm not a professional. Section 'dbsensor' is not a valid config section, At first the entire installation failed but i can correct everything and the installation was a success but in the klipper configuration everything was a failure my board is manta m8p 1.0.1 v with cm4 pi@@ChrisRiley
Great video, i still prefer the capacitive sensors. My original beta cr10s pro still has its capacitive sensor working like a champ. Was unfortunate creality did such a poor job on educating users on the way to set them up. They got a bad reputation for being bad , but in 3 years i only ever identified 1 that had mechanically failed with a user.......
I'm having a problem with the make command. I'm getting this warning when I run make In function 'canboot_reset', inlined from 'try_request_canboot' at src/generic/armcm_reset.c: 41:5: src/generic/armcm_reset.c:24:49: warning: array subscript 0 is outside array bou nds of 'uint32_t[0:]' [-Warray-bounds] uint64_t *boot_sig = (uint64_t *) (bl_vectors [1] - 9); In function 'canboot_reset', inlined from 'command_reset' at src/generic/armcm_reset.c: 47:5: src/generic/armcm_reset.c:24:49: warning: array subscript 0 is outside array bou nds of 'uint32_t[0:]' [-Warray-bounds] uint64_t *boot_sig = (uint64_t *) (bl_vectors [1] - 9); lto-wrapper: warning: using serial compilation of 5 LTRANS jobs lto-wrapper: note: see the '-flto' option documentation for more information And when I try to flash the created firmware, it doesn't flash. Any idea what's happening ?
I reflashed using the mainsail image and I managed to get it to work. I think I've got everything configured right using a biqu pi on a CR10s running duel Z motors with an E3 Turbo. The light comes on the sensor when it's near the build plate, but I don't get anything when I use M102 S-1 I raised the head and tried homing all. The X and Y home, but there's no movement on the Z motors. Everything works if I set it up with a BLtouch.
@@michaelk1213 Does it complain about the [BDsensor] entry in printer.cfg? Only thing I can think of is something happened with the shell script before the make command.
Safe home xy positions should be adjusted to account for x/y offset. The current safe homing settings makes it probe 45mm left of center on x and 7mm off on y. (Nozzle is in the center which it should'nt be)
thanks for the video!.. now i know its not for me.. all my printers have aluminum beds with glass on top. and the install is good for young people. I dont want to spend time typing into the console.. so the setup is a nogo. As for the server in python, there is a much easier way. Flash drive with memcard into the usb port. I go onto the desktop of the pi with rustdesk, open the file manager and copy and paste the file onto the flashdrive. i then take the mem card and put it into the printer. no typing involved. except for compiling.. but thats only 1 line with kiauh. elder people like me (65+) dont have time to waste and typing in endless lines of code. We want to click and play, and have good printing results out of the box. thats why every printer has its own pi 4, with 8 gig of ram and a 256gb ssd to boot from. But i am very gratefull for your video, because it shows me that this product is nothing for me. Luc
If they don't come up with some novel way of having the machine toolhead pick up the sensor it's not going to be widely adopted like the Klicky probes. Beyond that, the leveling routine looks really painless. This needs a quickmount.
Looks like a good deal for $30. The pros - accurate and fast. Cons, steel sheet required and setup seems difficult. Thanks for your continued research and videos on subjects that don't seemed to be covered by other channels
Exactly, you hit the nail on the head! Thank you so much for all your support, Dave.
Cool, looked like an instant buy for me, just have to bookmark this to watch again.
Great, good luck with your projects!
You should set your mesh_min and mesh_max so your probe isn't reading off the edge of the bed. Great video.
Ah ha, thank you!
That is a really great product! Super fast scanning, so for the larger beds it would really safe some time. I'll have to look into one once the Trident is built, maybe even incorporate the mount into the tool head, maybe near the part cooling duct. And thanks for the python tip, that is extremely useful!
It's pretty handy! Thanks for your comment
The bed level sensor tutorial was great, but the tip about the web server was next level. Thanks much for this video! Vive la Python!
Awesome! Thanks for watching
Thank you for this, I have this sensor at home more than 6 months now, and could not manage to work. Now I think I have a new standard to make it work.
That's great. Let me know if you get stuck!
Super important to realize that a sensor or mesh can be totally wrong as well. I had this with the settings for my BLTouch and Ender, it looked like my Ender-glass bed was warped and it never created a nice layer. Until I just started to assume the bed was flat and the probe wrong, manually leveled and disabled the probe... perfect first layer! :) I eventually had to resort to 3 probe points per location and a different mesh technique. Way slower than this though, but I would be as wary now after having learned this.
Thanks for the tip!
Keep in mind your Bltouch is riding on wheels/ rails that may not be perfectly flat. I had the same issue with Ender s1 plus on both the original wheels and aftermarket linear rail with only 2 mounts. It artificially introduced warpage to my bed mesh. Long story short, I finally fixed it by mounting the rails directly to the profile and moving my Bltouch to “zero offset” on the y axis. Perfect first layer since then, still slow as hell in leveling compared to this device.
So this probe is 0.12mm from the bed when the probe is on the bed ... that's not even a single layer difference or likely even less than the variation of height of the bed, so I'd be constantly worried of it hitting the printed part during print. I'm running my own variation to the Klicky on my Ender 3 (similar to the KlackEnder) and love that I never have to worry about the print being hit by it (as it just isn't mounted during the print) and how it adapts to any surface-swap, metal or not ...
Those click style probes are really handy, I like the docking solutions. The DB sensor is very low.
I love your videos, keep up the good work
Thank you
nice video my dude always nice to see some new tech!!
Thanks!
No idea how this exactly works (maybe something capacitive or inductive). If they could make one that fits around the nozzle they could even real time during the first layer get the bed mesh measured and correct live, no scanning at all.
Yes, it is inductive, that's a great idea.
@ ChrisRiley Hey Chris, I adjust my height until I get my first calibration results in the 100's but everytime i calibrate My second result is less then the first. What am i doing wrong?
I'm not sure what could be happening. They only thing I can think of is the Z isn't moving in the positive.
Just recently got one of these to check out but havent had the chance to install. Looks super promising. :)
It is, check it out and let us know what you think!
@@ChrisRiley Tried to say whats up at ERRF a few times as I passed you but didnt want to interrupt. Good work on this vid. SUPER helpful.
@@3DPrintSOS I'm sorry I missed you. Next time stop by and talk with my wife, she'll get you in! 😉
@@ChrisRiley Ah, the manager. Understood. My manager had me leave early on Saturday. haha
Hi Chris, my sensor hight is about 0.6-0.7 but when I do the calibration it's over the 400. How can I fix this because the nozzle is to close the bed thx.
What kind of bed do you have? Maybe it doesn't like the steel or the covering is too thick?
I doesn’t seem to do live adjust in Klipper yet, only Marlin. Looked impressive though. I bought one to tinker with simply based on the speed. I have a large bed (400x400mm), so hoping this would speed up the bed leveling. Thanks for the vids!
Cool, let us know what you think.
Can you flash that board over USB with STM32 dfu mode? I always find that easier than sd card flashinf
I don't know of any STM32's that you can flash with USB. I would like to figure that out though.
Impressive probe, very fast (probing off bed and short in x, mesh_min, mesh_max not set?).
I use the mesh graphic to adjust the bed screws to set the bed level...
With this probe giving readings in real time, you could have a script to level/trim the bed by adjusting the mount screws in real time...
Great ideas, thanks!
I was going to order one of these but it has 2 connector options. The web site doesn't do a very good job of explaining the difference. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'm going to order one as soon as I can figure out the connector options.
Keep us posted!
I received this message from Mark:
Thank you for purchase BDsensor. please choose version B which the connector is the same as BLtouch, the version A is no longer produced.
So there really isn’t a choice.
I wonder how this acts with temp changes.. Could be interesting to put in the default location on say.. a Voron vs a beacon
It would be interesting to do some side by side tests like this.
I can not recommend the bd-sensor in an heated chamber, as it will not work as it should. Have rn in my doomcube with archetype toolhead and monolith gantry, but ones it hits 60 chamber, it’s over. It just give up working
After watching this great video, I purchased one of this BDsensor. After 2 months, it's arrived (in Hungary) However, I have a little configuration problem, and I wouldbe glad if you could help me. I have changed the settings in the printer.cfg file according to the video. (the old sensor was original BLtouch. After restart, the following error reported: "Option 'control_pin' in section 'bltouch' must be specified" (even after I completely delete the BLtouch section) What is missing? Please help me. Thx ain advance.
Thanks! Maybe there is a macro somewhere that is call the bltouch?
@@ChrisRiley I rebuilt the printer.cfg from scratch, and it's working. I think the hashtagged auto genereted settings was the problem at the end of the printer.cfg (sorry for my poor english)
So i am curious about something... if someone is using canbus on their printers.... right? would i just need to recompile klipper on the "mainboard" That i am plugging that sensor into? so if i was connecting it up to my sb2209 on my voron, would it only need to be installed on that sb2209? or would i need to install it onto my actual motherboard? or would i need to recompile my motherboard, sb2209, and my canhat?
Hmm, that's a good question, I THINK you would only have to flash the CAN bus board to make it work.
Do you just download a fresh copy of klipper just so you can reflash the board? Im using a Vcore 3 with RatOS (custom install). Just want to double check before i even buy one
Yes, to make sure the Klipper version is somewhat current so it will work with the BD script. I would check with them before you buy to confirm your version will work.
Hi Chris, thank you for you video, really helpfull for me.
My config have one EBB36 CAN Bus and all elements are connected to it.
In you video you dont have covered this kind of wiring, could you please update your video with the way to ocompile the new firmware to programm the EBB36
Thank you in advance
Yes, I plan on tackling this soon.
@@ChrisRileyany updates?
@@ChrisRiley Dear Chris, could you please update this nice documentation with use of the BDSensor on the EBB36
Thank you in advance
Any one figure out how to make it probe faster with Screws_Tilt_Calculate? Moves down so slow
I haven't tried it with tilt yet, but I plan to in the future.
Really interesting. Kind of like the Beacon, but way cheaper to buy, especially for me here in Norway.
That was my thought too.
Shipping to Norway is usually pretty expensive
Thanks, I really like this sensor
@@ChrisRileyYeah, looks promising. I think it could be a good choice for my Fenrir CoreXY, I have a Pinda in the design now, but this should be even easier to fit.
I just ordered this from 3DO in which is located in DK, not sure if they got more in stock, but its a little more local for you.
In all honesty, it is exactly the same as the Beacon, the tech is the same, just a different design, but as a difference, the BD Sensor doesn't come with a premium price and a premium shipping cost which is a massive win in my book. I myself were looking into getting the Beacon, but 80 Dollars + 50 Dollars for shipping is just beyond anything i would pay for something like this knowing these type of sensors is usually super cheap.
In my opinion the BD Sensor is a clear winner, it hits all the checkmarks in my book, its cheaper, its smaller, its shielded, and it works for both Marlin and Klipper.
@@nemisizz Thanks for the comment, all good points.
Hey Chris. I have noticed some issues with kiauh as of late. I tried to flash klipper on a pi 3b and it keeps failing. I also tried to install 2 instances using kiauh on my pad 7 and also had all kinds of issues. I have heard since the updates that a lot of people are having issues. Is it possible that it is also affecting the kiauh tool? I have been trying for 3 days now with no luck.
It could be the updates causing and issues for sure. The devs for the Kiauh tool and pretty active, hopefully they will get it sorted soon.
Thank you for the video,I got one of these a few months back but never got around to installing,mainly because the lack of information surrouding it. Im using an ender 3 s1 pro with sonic pad,will the bd sensor work on this? As far as im aware it uses klipper and marlin so not sure if it will give me live information? Thank you for your time
Hey, thanks for watching! Either way, I would guess that you will have to reflash the firmware to make it work. I wish it was more strait forward, but it will probably take some work to get it up and going.
@@ChrisRiley Thank you for your reply Chris
did you make it work on sonic pad? I would like to buy the sensor but im afraid sonic pad have limited resources.
Looks like I may just have a bad sensor :( got everything working and the m102 S-1 tells me the info but the light doesn't come on when I bring it close to my PEI bed
Update: Looks like bad internal soldering, the sensor came off :/, but I did get to see the light come on, so just need a new sensor!
I'm glad you pinned it down. Good luck with your projects!
This doesn't work for be, I've tried following your video, also the steps in github, but I keep getting the error
Option 'control_pin' in section 'bltouch' must be specified
Hi, remove bltouch setting in the SAVE_CONFIG below in your printer.cfg section.
@@geraldblindeling4405 the BLTOUCH was already removed. I ended up reflashing my host to a different linux OS, re-installed Klipper and copied over my printer.cfg now it's all working great.
Good to hear you got it working!
Got one of these coming for my vzbot to replace the Bltouch. Have this video saved to reference later.
Great, let us know what you think!
@ChrisRiley I can't get it to work with my mks skipr. I keep getting connection error.
Edit: got it working, I had to use the exp 2 pins I used pins pa6 and pa7 on the mks skipr. My pins are 180° off from the mks skipr pins diagram on the github. I found a github issue for the monster8 and it applies to the skipr as well. It's marlin issue 24190.
Yes I know it's marlin issue on github buts it a hardware issue.
Hi Chris's, is the same process for a manta m8p board?
Yes, it will be very close to the same.
I tried everything I could, I'm not a professional. Section 'dbsensor' is not a valid config section, At first the entire installation failed but i can correct everything and the installation was a success but in the klipper configuration everything was a failure my board is manta m8p 1.0.1 v with cm4 pi@@ChrisRiley
How is this different than beacon? Does it use eddy currents?
I don't know much about Beacon, but this sensor doesn't appear to use the same type of sensor as it does.
Can I still use screws_tilt_calculate? Also will a pei build plate be ok to use?
You can use screw tilt, as long as the PEI isn't too thick.
@ChrisRiley great. I am gonna give it a try. Thanks for awesome video. I didn't know such a sensor existed.
I receive this error ...." Bed Distance Sensor data error:10.24 "
I've seen a couple of comments on this, something has changed, hopefully they update the firmware soon.
Great video, i still prefer the capacitive sensors. My original beta cr10s pro still has its capacitive sensor working like a champ. Was unfortunate creality did such a poor job on educating users on the way to set them up. They got a bad reputation for being bad , but in 3 years i only ever identified 1 that had mechanically failed with a user.......
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Thanks for watching
I'm having a problem with the make command.
I'm getting this warning when I run make
In function 'canboot_reset',
inlined from 'try_request_canboot' at src/generic/armcm_reset.c: 41:5:
src/generic/armcm_reset.c:24:49: warning: array subscript 0 is outside array bou
nds of 'uint32_t[0:]' [-Warray-bounds]
uint64_t *boot_sig = (uint64_t *) (bl_vectors [1] - 9);
In function 'canboot_reset',
inlined from 'command_reset' at src/generic/armcm_reset.c: 47:5:
src/generic/armcm_reset.c:24:49: warning: array subscript 0 is outside array bou
nds of 'uint32_t[0:]' [-Warray-bounds]
uint64_t *boot_sig = (uint64_t *) (bl_vectors [1] - 9);
lto-wrapper: warning: using serial compilation of 5 LTRANS jobs
lto-wrapper: note: see the '-flto' option documentation for more information
And when I try to flash the created firmware, it doesn't flash.
Any idea what's happening ?
Not sure what's up. Did you try a make clean before the make? Maybe that will clean it up.
I reflashed using the mainsail image and I managed to get it to work.
I think I've got everything configured right using a biqu pi on a CR10s running duel Z motors with an E3 Turbo.
The light comes on the sensor when it's near the build plate, but I don't get anything when I use M102 S-1
I raised the head and tried homing all. The X and Y home, but there's no movement on the Z motors.
Everything works if I set it up with a BLtouch.
@@michaelk1213 Does it complain about the [BDsensor] entry in printer.cfg? Only thing I can think of is something happened with the shell script before the make command.
It actively levels while printing?
In Klipper the leveling follows the mesh, like any other sensor. In Marlin, it auto levels based on active sensor readings.
So real time leveling works only on marlin still ?
As far as I know, that is correct.
Hopefully they add this function to kipper...
i receive BED DISTANCE DATA ERROR 10.24
I've seen a couple of comments on this, something has changed, hopefully they update the firmware soon.
Seems it scans outside the bed on the left side, and too far from the edge on the right?
Yes it scans out side of the bed, mesh_min should be ajusted to prevent it to move out of the bed.
Indeed, that was a bit weird. :)
Safe home xy positions should be adjusted to account for x/y offset.
The current safe homing settings makes it probe 45mm left of center on x and 7mm off on y.
(Nozzle is in the center which it should'nt be)
Thanks, I'll look into it!
Please Test the Sensor with KAMP.
More to come!
/usr/bin/python: No module named http
Where did you see this error? Sounds like the URL is missing.
i have the same error, i only can use this command adding 3 after python, like this: python3 -m http.server
thanks for the video!.. now i know its not for me.. all my printers have aluminum beds with glass on top. and the install is good for young people. I dont want to spend time typing into the console.. so the setup is a nogo. As for the server in python, there is a much easier way. Flash drive with memcard into the usb port. I go onto the desktop of the pi with rustdesk, open the file manager and copy and paste the file onto the flashdrive. i then take the mem card and put it into the printer. no typing involved. except for compiling.. but thats only 1 line with kiauh. elder people like me (65+) dont have time to waste and typing in endless lines of code. We want to click and play, and have good printing results out of the box. thats why every printer has its own pi 4, with 8 gig of ram and a 256gb ssd to boot from.
But i am very gratefull for your video, because it shows me that this product is nothing for me.
Luc
Thanks for the tip!
If they don't come up with some novel way of having the machine toolhead pick up the sensor it's not going to be widely adopted like the Klicky probes. Beyond that, the leveling routine looks really painless. This needs a quickmount.
👍🙂
Why? It should not interfere with the way it is mounted, unless you mean the extra mass / weight