Fixing WATER PUMPS after the compressed gases update
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2023
- In this video, 454ss looks into ways to fix water tanks/pumps after the Space DLC!
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The issue with both the release valve and the fluctuation is the same: Ive done some testing for my submarine with both ballast pumps and bilge pumps, if you have an enclosed volume you wish to empty or fill, just use a large fluid pump, fluctuation will happen, but this cannot be overcome, if you want a bilge pump, that removes fluid from a compartment, where humans have to enter, or its connected to the outside somehow, you need one fluid port, that leads to a T-pice with one gas and one fluid release valve at the end, use a large pump on the fluid valve to where you want the fluid to (in most cases just outside of you vehicle) and another fluid port at the gas valve, you can put a pump in between to increase flow rate, this setup will still fluctuate but has a mediocre flow rate for things like bilge pumps or airlocks.
Now for the reasoning:
In every enclosed space, even in pre-filled liquid tanks there is both liquid and a little bit of gas, in stormworks, it does not matter where you put the fluid port, you will always have access to every fluid in there, meaining both gas and fluid will enter you fluid port, if you put a liquid release valve there, the liquid will pass, but the gas will remain in the fluid port and block it, the gas has to exit the fluid port first, until the next portion of both fluid and gas again, can enter, this will repeat over and over again, this is causing all fluctuations, by using a T-Pice and both gas and fluid release valves, we can overcome (to a limited degree) this problem, the only solution to this and thats what Im recommending the devs, is to seperate gas and liquid systems, have a gas port and liquid port, have a gas pipe and a liquid pipe (still keep the old one as omni-purpose pipes).
Same thing for all liquid related components, Im not sure if it is due to a bug or the order things spawn into vehicles, but if a closed system between coolant manifolds and radiators spawns, the connections get filled with air, therefore stalling the pumps, or if they work, flucutate like hell because there cant be both gas and liquid in the same component at the time, the spawning of gas inside of components, might be to a bug, or a case of where they spawn before the liquid in themselves, I have observed this spawning behaviour from logic: Vehicles spawn front to back, if you have a Not-Gate output connected to a flip-flop and the input somwhere after the not-gate in the vehicle, the not gate will spawn in first, will have nothing connected to the input, therefore have its output set to true, and trigger the gate, even if the not gate input gets another true signal (therefore switching the not gate to false) at spawn.
Therefore:
Dear Devs,
I like your game, the Update is so cool, its not at all that bad everyone cries, 99% of things are working, but not coolant manifolds, pumps etc. (they are working to some degree with the latest hotfix but not correctly at all), so make gas and liquid systems different, or at least give us fluid ports that only take gas or liquid.
Much Love,
a Stormworks player
Totally agreed :) Amazing writeup. I wish there was a port that only allowed gas or liquid - as you will see in my next video :)
Feels good to have a person creating high quality stormworks content like this. Been missing that since MrNJ stopped.
you are like the ONLY person that covered this issue I could find, thank you! I got my fire impression vehicle working (:
Finally a YT creator that just doesnt rant about the new system but is actually constructive about it.
LoL
@@EndoSkull Wasn't talking about you. I don't watch your stuff.
@@connycontainer9459damn ok
@@connycontainer9459 dayumm..
He is like a new Mr Njersey
Oh, man, not only "fixing" them, but also showing stuff to do. Thank you very much!
.......
Note: my bet would be devs haven't even looked at those filters after update. So many angry posts that they might haven't even found an opinion/report related specific to that.
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I wonder... whether a "T" connection after the pump, one side sends water as usual, other side has a filter (damn!) which only sucks air and throw it back into the same tank... ?
I've had so many issues with pumping liquids since the update.
I recently finished up my ZIL-131 with fuel cistern for peddling fuel between the buy and sell points in the fishing village, but now they can't pump for anything anymore. I've tried:
- High pressure in the tank
- Low pressure in the tank
- Vacuum in the tank
- Both relief valves on the pumps
- No relief valves on the pumps
- Only liquid relief valves on the pump
- More pumps
Since the update I can fill up a 12 000 L tank in about 3 minutes, where the last 2 000 L takes up about 2 minutes to pump due to - I presume - the built up pressure. Emptying it however, takes a grand total of _25 minutes_ (best case scenario), and the pump speed will be all over the place, jumping between 130 L / s to only 2 L / s.
My hypothesis is that ports have a max capacity, and when that capacity fills up with gas instead of liquid, it takes away from the liquids before you get to any relief valves. And as you pump out more liquid, the amount of gas proportional to the liquid will be greater and greater, meaning you will pump slower and slower?
Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated!
- An annoyed soviet truck driver
Edit:
I've done a load of testing again, and here are my relatively inconclusive findings:
All tests done at 1 bar of pressure:
- If you add a T-piece before the pump with a gas relief with an end port (for pumping out, this is best to remain inside the tank), and have a liquid relief into the pump, it slightly improves flow rate and constancy
- If you do the same setup but add a small pump between the gas relief and the gas exit port, it improves flowrate and constancy even more
- If you do the same again, but with a big pump, you somehow get less flowrate and constancy
Also I would like to note that I think my hypothesis that the fluid port takes a ratio of gas to liquid to fill up capacity seems to be correct.
When pumping, flowrate will degrade to about the same percentage of its max flowrate as the tank is filled. What I mean by this is - for example - that if you have a fuel tank that holds about 12 000 L, and your max flowrate is normally 120 L/s, then at 3 000 L, aka 25% filled with liquid, you will get roughly 30 L/s average flowrate (it's is still kind of all over the place, use above for fixes).
This means that if you want to pump out the whole tank, you will be pumping at fractions of liters per second when you reach double digit tank contents.
I hope I can make a genuine fix for the consistency problems, but for now I have genuinely no further ideas :(
Same exact thing happened to me, I think it's a problem of the selling point since between two tanks this does not happen
Looks like that adding empty tanks between the pump and the intake for the fuel makes the situation better, it lets more time pass between the start of the flow and when the L/s reset for the first time
And if you put a branching pipe between pump and intake you can pump out 200 liters before it zeroes
what do you mean by a branch between pump and input exactly
@@PrimitiveChad I mean like a pipe T-piece, where 1 side goes to the pump, 1 is from the input, and 1 is left alone, with nothing on it
Good test. Good stuff.
Maybe due to the fluid relief valve the gasses in the system ended up "clogging" the system. Might wanna try adding a T piece with a valve to let the gas back out
Thanks for the easy to understand and up to date stormworks content
I think the gas and liquid relief valves are only for relieving built up pressure in enclosed volumes, NOT filters for screening what you are pumping.
In my tests they act just like filters - and that's why the truck using "old" filters acted the same way! :D
From my testing, I believe the gas and fluid relief filters have a somewhat low restriction on flow rates, around 20-30L/s.
Yes my tests showed that too
when you had air pressure pushing in... it fixed the problem. So what if you just need another port for air coming in because one can't fill it as fast as it's being pumped out?
I found that u need to put a gas relief valve on both sides of the wall with a gas port on both I found if u just use the regular port on one side it doesn't work properly cus the cabins that have a gas port one and relief on the one side and regular port on the other still built pressurein the room. Iam still in the process of get out the pressure in all the compartment by moving air through the boat and relief the gas but also trying not to lose heat in the cabin cuz it's made for artic trips
Do I need to do this with me fuel tanks too though? Will all my engines break with the new update 😭
Yup, I had the same experience. No matter what I did I couldn't get the filter "valves" to work in any reasonable way. I can't imagine this is how they're intended to (not) work.
I wonder if that experiment also applies in subs ballast tanks
i actually cant empty my ballast tank ciz of that. nor fill it to the brim. the air pressure gets soo high it wont fill more than ¾ of the tank. also the air relive doesnt work when it touched water...
Actually it's very cool, now we have to think about getting air in the system, and like in real life, you have to account for that and build systems to counter that, or some sort of manual procedures. Yes, it means extra work with previous creations, but it's more realistic that way.
Your results surprise me a bit.
I have a slightly different case, but i expect the solution should be the same.
I am trying to pump water from the ocean through my vessel, to a hose connector. Just fluid port, pipe, pump, hose connector, doesn't work.
Same thing with fuel from a gas station or refinery.
But if i install a T pice before the pump, between the tank or other source and the pump, and add a gas relif valve and fluid end port at the top, all pump systems seem work again.
I thought, the trick was, to get rid of any gas before the pump.
But with you, exactly the opposite seems to happen.
Great finding, I will try this out! Thank you :)
This explains what I suspected out of the pressure. You need to pressurize the tank with gas which will force the water out at high pressure.
I just added a pump to pump air into my water trailer when out is on
the best way to make such system working is to put nothing on liquid out line, but to put pump pressurizing the tank with air
< Fluid Out -|- Tank -|-
i really enjoy this new gas liquid system tbh
Hi 454ss, how about pumping seawater from the bottom of a small boat to the deck through the same hose? Do we need to renounce putting out fires without an onboard tank?
For two days I have been trying to get a system like that to work, Finally had some success by using tanks, the flow will work for a while. Then you have to fill the tanks and also release pressure at the same time. after they have filled up again you can re-engage the water cannon. I have not found a way to get decent flow by just pumping the seawater.
How does this issue resolve when one is connecting a large water pump directly to the bottom of a boat to get water from the seafloor?
I have added a gas relief valve to the input area, output area and vented both to atmo. no change in behaviour.
Since the DLC I can't even pump water from the ocean anymore xD (for water cannons)
Not even gonna mention the completely broken water jets...
yeah,now i had to do a whole system just to get a fire hose working consistently on my boat,lol
had to hook up two diferent pumps,one for water and another for air,and i had a lot of trial and error until i got it working right.
Just so you know, you have mistyped "DLC" on the thumbnail on this and the last Space video you have uploaded. 🙂 Great videos nonetheless!
Is your Oil Rig still working? Seems to be an issue pumping Slurry for mine and others. If you solve that one I’ll buy you coffee 😂
It makes sense to me now why before water is sent from a Fire-Engine to a hose, they have to prime it, by holding the button on the panel for a few seconds. That then lowers the pressure inside the tank. So maybe have a push-button that turns on a large pump that pumps air out? Correct me if I am wrong.
Consider yourself being corrected.
There's actually TWO reasons fire-fighters remove air from the hoses (also called lines).
One is called priming.
The main pump that is used is an impeller pump, which can not pump air (or any other gas).
So water is sucked in to the intake hose and pump via a small priming pump (which is a design that can pump air).
Once the intake hose and pump are full of water, the main impeller pump can be turned on.
The other and far more common thing is purging. That is, removing air from the lines before or after the pump where the source of water is already under pressure.
And that isn't strictly necessary for actual operation, it will do it itself.
But if you have ever turned on a tap at home after the water mains has been turned off and worked on, and the water gurgled and spluttered as it started to flow again.
That's air in the pipes and the same thing happens with firetrucks.
The biggest problem with air gurgling through the pump is that the firefighter on the end of the hose can feel EVERYTHING you do that changes the water pressure.
A large hose can take 2 or 3 fire-fighters all leaning forward to hold, and if you instantly remove all of that water pressure (by say putting a large air bubble into the pump), they all fall forwards.
Suddenly increase the pressure (by say the air bubble leaving the pump) and they aren't ready for it, they all fall backwards.
Purging the air is ALL about supplying a smooth consistent pressure to the person on the end of the hose.
If you do your job right, they will never know you did anything.
*Story time*
Our normal pumper (urban fire truck) was in for maintenance so we had a replacement truck to use, that had a slightly smaller water tank.
At a house fire, we had the first line deployed using the on board water tank and were looking for and connecting to the fire hydrant.
This took slightly longer than normal.
Switching over from tank supply to inlet supply is a balancing act, as the supplied water comes in under pressure where the tank water isn't, so you actually need to slow the pump down a little bit to maintain the same pressure.
Just as water started entering the inlet, the tank ran out of water. It caused the pressure to drop slightly just as I was switching to the inlet supply.
The firefighter on the end of the hose did notice it (we had a debrief after the fire).
Normally, they either wouldn't notice anything (if you did the change over smoothly) or would notice an increase in pressure (which often you liked to feel when holding the hose, as you knew supply was connected and now had unlimited water).
Luckily, it didn't put any air bubbles into the pump or hoses. But it was a close call.
@35manning Wow man. Thanks for the info. I volunteered for a short while. The first night I was there I was a ride along to their training. We were hose testing and some when the pressure was changed (I'm guessing at the engineer panel) a hole was blown in the old supply line and it sounded like a rocket and it flew backwards, hit own of an AO behind the legs and flipped him like 5 feet in the air. I not that knowledgeable in that stuff. So it could have just been the faulty hose's fault.
@@xerfin2themax552 ahh, the old hose testing.
When doing that, the lines are closed off and the pump ran hard to put a lot of pressure into the hoses. Much more than when they are in normal use.
You are looking for hoses to show any leaks or bulges that indicate repairs or replacement it required.
The volume of water and the pressure plus the flexibility of the hoses can make them swing around a lot and they can be dangerous if they hit you.
If the hose is full of air, then pressurised either with more air or water, then the air compresses a lot and can make any sudden failures VERY "explosive".
For reference, whilst it varies with different types of nozzles and tasks, we normally ran about 700kpa (or 7 atm) of pressure at the nozzle.
We'd need to calculate the pressure loss over the diameter and length of hose plus if the nozzle was above or below the pump, so at the pump the pressure would be higher (say 850 to 1000 kpa on average).
I don't believe that level of detail is simulated in Stormworks however.
Thanks for providing these tutorials, I almost feel like I could get back to the rescue boat I was working on and maybe buy the space DLC anyway..
Something happened with your mic? It clips a lot, to the point of distortion. Accidentally left the gain too high?
Thank you! Glad you found them useful! Yup for this video I left it on too high :( I was recording something else and forgot to change it....
@@454ss_gaming That happens! i always check for clipping, though depending on what I am making, it is a good thing! :p The distortion is good in my music(not on this channel) less good in other situations :D
What about pumping air in to increase the pressure as the water goes out?
I have a fun issue where a water cannon, taking water straight from ghe ocean and pushing it out a hose, dies after a second of spraying, the pump just stops working
so thats why the airlock on my sub takes 3 years to empty with 5 pumps?
I think that fluctuation is because of the character just like how a seat connected to the same body as a turret that droops only when Your in a seat. It’s a dumb problem we have been having for a long time with no fix!!
U need it to have gas coming out because if the water in the tank is not pressurized the water will do just that and drop because there is no pressure in the line
The pressure in the tank and in the lines DOES matter
Are they fixing these bugs/glitches yet? Because the bugs/ glitches that came with the update broke Buoyancy.
Modular engine no smoke only me
no only you me too
us all
maybe try putting a tank after the pump
can someone explain to me in detail why pumping water directly from the sea doesn't work anymore ?
I think it's because the flow rate limit is very low on the filter
Flow rate without a gas/liquid relief valve is like 700 L/s, but those stupid relief valves drop it to like 35 L/s. Super annoying
@@scope81 yeah i hate it too
The space dlc didnt bring the problems that needs to stop being labled for the issues. It was the fluids and gasses update.
Okay I missed this the last time I watched, but "negative pressure" doesn't really exist, since matter can only impart a non-zero non-negative pressure on each others. (negative mass doesnt exist, even though a lot of us would love to have it!) You probably know this, but I got scolded a lot by my highschool physics teacher for calling sub 1 atm pressures "negative pressure" so it struck me.
Though if you discover a way to create negative pressure, or even better, negative mass (just in stormworks lol :p) please let us know! I'd love to explore proper antigravity in this game, not just a wheel bug :D
Bro can you try to fix flying fish attack that bug or something is made my game crashing😢
have you ever noticed if you spray a big hose in real life, its not always consistentand you get area splash . i think your chasing nothing imo it works as a real hose should