NPD (Narcissism) vs BPD (Borderline) | FRANK YEOMANS
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- Опубликовано: 17 июл 2019
- Frank Yeomans discusses how Borderline and Narcissistic personalities compare in terms of attachment style and splitting style, and why a BPD patient gives a therapist a lot more to work with.
We talked with Frank Yeomans about Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and how they can affect us on a personal and societal level.
Frank Yeomans is an expert clinician who makes use of Transference-Focused Psychotherapy in his practice treating NPD and BPD. In fact, he co-wrote the manual on TFP for Borderline Personality Disorder!
Check out our interview of Otto Kernberg (who mentored Frank Yeomans) for lots more related material: • Otto Kernberg
For more information about BORDERLINE, the feature-length documentary we made about BPD, please visit: borderlinethefilm.com
Our archive of videos on BPD and NPD is expanding - be sure to subscribe to our channel here: / borderlinernotes
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Studio Comma The, LLC and BorderlinerNotes expressly disclaim responsibility and shall have no liability for any damages, loss, injury, or liability whatsoever suffering as a result of reliance on the information in this publication. If you or someone you know is considering self-harm or suicide, it’s okay to ask for help. 24 hour support is provided by www.hopeline-nc.org (877.235.4525), suicidepreventionlifeline.org (800.273.8255), kidshelpphone.ca (800.668.6868).”
Honestly having bpd isn't just about shifting moods or feeling angry and then happy
It's about having your emotions be so intense but last for such a short time that you're left with the impression that nothing you feel even matters
Its about feeling invalid about your anger, about your sadness and worries. It's about not knowing if anything you feel is or was ever legit.
Sure...that's important to you. To other people, it's the shifting moods, feeling angry, etc.
A lack of internal stability and structure of identity, lack of confidence in the deep self are the core construct of causes to a lot of the internal disruption and emotional turbulence. The persistence of the expression of the feeling of emptiness throughout their experience is something that comes from this. The ego is so small it can't support itself through turmoil and emotional maturity doesn't become developed until much later in life than other counterparts. I'm a person of that diagnosis and I definitely identify with most of everything you've expressed here
he never said that its not. He's describing an aspect of borderline (splitting) which is fundamental to the structure of their personality.
Truth.
Yeah and then not having support from the ones you love doesn't help.
Summary
BPD : guilty is there after being explosive
NPD : no guilty and think nothing is wrong, lack of apologetic
Thanks for this.
Many bds will never apologize
Or even address issues
@@heythere6983 You can't read minds tho, it's Internalized 🤷
@@heythere6983 Then can you confirm they aren't narcissists?
He won’t blame the parents, but I’ll go ahead and say that from what I’ve seen and lived, both disorders usually follow a generational trauma pathway.
CorePathway I don't agree with Otto Kernberg saying that at all, because he must be aware that many parents are extremely cruel to their precious children, due to their own unhealed trauma issues!
In fact, I recall that physical and sexual abuse, as well as other types of abuse, were rife when I was growing up in beautiful New Zealand in the 60s and 70s, which seemed like a living nightmare. 🙁
Yep. Usually repeated and prolonged sexual abuse is present.
SOMEbody was doing something terrible to the child.
It totally has a lot to do with your parents personalities and how you were raised.
I was physically and verbally abused by my father and my mom was super anxious all the time, but my parents loved me, talked with me and had no issue sharing our emotions. I'm Borderline and have an Anxious Preoccupied attachment style.
My wife, she was raised by a narcissist mother and a father who never stood up for her and sided with her mom. She never felt loved, her parents never talked to her about her issues, they didn't share emotions and no matter what, she was never enough. She is also NPD and is a Dismissive Avoidant.
Sounds pretty bang on to me.
This has also been my experience. My grandmother was narcissist So was my mother. So was my daughter. All were abusive
@@cryptojihadi265 Yep. And what happened to the abuser to make them a monster? No well-adjusted adult just decides to be a child rapist. That said not every abused person becomes an abuser. Blessedly I internalized my trauma; I am committing the sin of neglect vs overt abuse. And unlike anyone else in my family I’m seeking help and fighting the good fight. I know my mission; to help my kids understand that they will need to work on their emotional maturity due to my absence. But they won’t be stunted in their intimate relationships because I or other family members gaslit and perved on them.
One correction. Borderlines reactions are not about "good and bad", it's the switch between self blame and accusation. People get this confused a lot.
After reading some people relationship past honestly the way they make look people with bpd is bad.
Like a pettyness violent behavior manipulator mentality.
These trait here I dont know if they just part of your caracter or mental illness.
this makes perfect sense. holy shit
So true
One thing that has helped me is acknowledging my feelings without attributing them to anyone. I recently had a situation where I felt betrayed and disrespected by my partner but instead of blaming her I accepted the emotions as a result if the situation but not her. I broke apart my feelings as to why they existed and wrote her a letter about it so I could attempt to remain coherent and not fall into my usual emotional Word salad. And it helps. We haven't been dating long, just hit 4 months, but in that time we have never had an argument. We've had our downers and we've hurt each other aplenty. But never have we had an argument.
@@painoftheheart12 for me, this is exactly the part which correlates with parents who tried to raise their kids without understanding the very basics of emotions or emotional reactions.
It's a learned pattern and can be reshaped. What you say strikes as true.
The basic idea of human happiness is to build a life that feels good for you, and that's pretty much impossible if there's no connection to having any emotions which are true for yourself, your preferences and your experiences.
Or mine, for that matter. Emotional reactions come from somewhere, and that's true for everyone. There are repeating patterns.
What helped for me was to define reasonable reactions to reasonable situations.
I had a narc mom...was abused..after high school studied and then married a borderline husband. 36 years married . I can definitely say that my life with the borderline was quite happy. I loved him just the way he was.Unknowingly I felt protective towards him. I became strong. My children loved him. He was not jealous or horrible. The big tantrums I ignored and walked away...then just never mentioned it again
It worked. A pity he became.psychotic at the age of 60. It lasted 3 years. He did not get excercise and was sort of on his own planet. He passed away from a heart attack. I never knew what was really the matter..but knew he had a terrible childhood..
.but the marraige was ok to me. I was.happy. He worked and was good at his job. He had 2 degrees and helped many people with their statistics when they were completing their degrees. He was highly intelligent. I honour my memories of him.
That was was a great story, thank you for sharing.
I'm glad to hear you de-stigmatize what it is to have a bpd partner. They're not monsters who seek to hurt others continuously and even often times are intelligent and wonderful people. I'm sorry to hear about what happened to him in his later years but I hope you happiness and healing with everything else negative to your experience. Love to you and your family
I too will honor their memory for you. God bless you and I hope you have a good day!
You would probably like Lone Frank's "Genetic me". I think, you will have to pay a bit for it, but it is worth the low price I saw it for a few years back. Especially the part about "Lissi Borden's "grandkid", who is a famous scientist, but "a nice psychopath" is interesting.
Thanks for this. I’m alwAys looking for stories about successful relationships with Borderliners
As a person with Borderline traits / CPTSD , this makes me feel sad for my ex who had narcissistic traits, despite the fact he abused me. It’s spot on. He was praised and praised for certain things but emotionally neglected. Struggled with addiction and other issues that went unnoticed - but he was praised for superficial things. I was emotionally abused, neglected but not praised - constantly invalidated and criticized. Despite the pain he caused me I’m grateful because I’m finally healing. I know it’s a slim chance, but I hope he gets help one day. When I told him that he got angry - but it’s true.
I am simply astounded at his level of empathy.. most people would skirt from BPD or NPD individual and here is a person who is ready to go the extra step and help them.. the best thing about him is that he treats personality disorders as just another patient who needs help
Yes! Empathizing with hard-to-empathize-with people is a Yeomans specialty, and maybe the crux of his therapeutic technique. Thanks for the comment! -P
Lol.... everybody was a child once ..their disruptive personalities are often due to conditioning and incorrect upbringing...they need most help and compassion
I really love and admire him. The warmth and compassion he has is next to not so many. I like Dr Fox too
Huge difference in being a well trained professional such as he is vs being someone in a relationship with these pathologically disordered personalities.
@@hissyfitz7890 true
“I don't know what's worse: to not know what you are and be happy, or to become what you've always wanted to be, and feel alone.”
I really applaud the person with NPD here who explains how their life is also ruined. I spent my whole 60 years on the planet caretaking the two great men in my life both narcissists. No matter how much adoration I gave them, they didn’t believe I loved them for themselves. ‘There must be a catch’. ‘Here, I’ll give you flowers’, they say. ‘I don’t need anything, I say. ‘You want something else?’ They rage. ‘You don’t like my flowers, then. If I don’t seem happy enough with what they gave, it is about them. I wanted to love them out of this insecurity but I could not. They scared me and when I looked horrified, then they said, ‘see, you do hate me! Finally the truth is revealed!’ I couldn’t help them and save my own oxygen. As much as I love them and fear for them, I wish this person with NPD the best for the struggles and know that I would have given everything but my life to help but we are all on our own with our trauma journey
You can't love them better because they belong to a cult inside their brain that tells them lies about themselves and the world. You try to prove your love and it is NEVER enough, when you get exhausted or look sad through their abuse then they have the 'proof' that you never loved them. They cannot hold onto anything good but hold onto the bad forever.
I think it is spiritual and they are actually demon possessed. Only God can deliver them when they become born again, it is literally the only cure.
Actually you described BPD with narcissistic trauma responce. NPD-dude will not care at all and discard you instad of showing dramatical resentment. Because BPD is caused by abandonment trauma doesn't mean that it couldn't contain narcissistic trauma of neglection and devaluation. The difference is that a true narcissist will stay the same 24/7 while BPD+Narc trauma will switch to a pseudonarcissism as a traumatic responce they learned bc surviving with a narcissist means you should become their equal to defend yourself and to move along with them. It's really a momentary choice psyche makes depending on amount of it's resouce - to maintain sanity losing stability or to lose sanity to maintain stability. That is how this responce works.
My mother is a narc and created me a borderline, but I am pretty much over all that, and I am recovered.
Oh my mom is a narc too! I'm curious about howto get rid of narc family completely
@@nnnnnaa3480cut ties
Having been supervised over many years and being in practice with Dr Yeomans, I can say he is a therapeutic master. My most important supervisor.
I can imagine. You can just feel the familiarity, the experience, that comes from thoughtful work with many patients, and reflection on the work.
I was neglected as a child and I have BPD. Anyone else relate?
check out "still face experiment", it might be eye opening. As it pretty much describes the emotional motivations behind borderline behavior.
Hi, i have some question for you. My grandmother has some narcissitic traits and she was taking care of me most of my childhood. And i did not had a strong sense of self it was difficult to identify myself with stuff. Everybody "seemed to had a sense of self" except for me. But I met a lot of narcissist during my life and the last ones made me focus on my childhood trauma cause i knew there os smth more to the situation,smth karmic going on. But i read someqhere that all narsissistic are codependants and codependants are not narc though they have a lot of similar traits(due to being raised by other narc). And i read there is also a linkage between borderline and narcissism and sometimes they co-exists. I wonder what is the difference between borderline and narc and if u have been diagnosed.... i would be thankful if u could help me with some info.
Allie Raetz Hi, i have some question for you. My grandmother has some narcissitic traits and she was taking care of me most of my childhood. And i did not had a strong sense of self it was difficult to identify myself with stuff. Everybody "seemed to had a sense of self" except for me. But I met a lot of narcissist during my life and the last ones made me focus on my childhood trauma cause i knew there os smth more to the situation,smth karmic going on. But i read someqhere that all narsissistic are codependants and codependants are not narc though they have a lot of similar traits(due to being raised by other narc). And i read there is also a linkage between borderline and narcissism and sometimes they co-exists. I wonder what is the difference between borderline and narc and if u have been diagnosed.... i would be thankful if u could help me with some info.
Yup, story of my childhood.
Yes. Alcoholic father: neglectful, mean, condescending, untrustworthy, overall bad being. Mother: overly compensative, modelled fear based responses, controlling, invalidating my t, emotions. BPD is known as complex PTSD. It is trauma based and forms due to our origin of family. Flawed humans, creating flawed humans.
I suffer from Quiet BPD and I am very close to someone who may also either have BPD or Covert NPD. And honestly, being close to this person has helped me see the reason behind why people who have Narcissistic Personality Disorder, whether Overt or Covert behave the way that they do. They behave the way that they do because they are projecting how they feel about themselves onto you. The same with someone who has BPD. Whether it is Overt or Covert BPD, we believe that the person is gonna leave anyway, so we will basically project that fear of abandonment onto the other person until it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. But with a person with borderline, we blame ourselves for you leaving and end up feeling suicidal. I don't know if someone with NPD blames themselves for you leaving, or if they tell themselves, see, I knew they were going to leave eventually, just like everyone else. Or see, I knew they were going to abandon me emotionally, physically or otherwise just like others have in the past. It's all about how someone with BPD or NPD feels about themselves. Does it come off as abusive behavior? Yes. But I would tell someone that if they are being made to feel like they're not worthy of being in someone's presence or they are being physically, emotionally and/or mentally abused, whether the person doing the abuse has a diagnosis of BPD or NPD, it is best to leave and move on.
I, myself am not abusive to others, I often abuse myself instead but those that do project their insecurities onto others, please get counseling and make sure you take your medication. You are not alone in your suffering, there is help out there.
Don't be too hard on yourself mate! Im BPD with GAD and I'm glad you shared. It means a lot to see more peoples perspectives on whats in my head to some extent.
"Quiet BPD". Utter nonsense. Might just as well say "pink BPD". A BPD cannot self-reflect, so your long rambling statement means nothing. Much more likely to be an attention seeker.
Quiet BPD is not a recognized clinical term. You are a Borderline period, you simply are better at internalizing your emotions rather than impulsively acting out.
@@theonlydjtopcatI agree with you.
Yet one's who lack a key symptom like impulsivity, i believe diagnostics say it's not a full on bpd.
Well, itll probably evolve and become clearer with time. Or what s your idea on that?..
I agree there is no such thing as quiet borderline@@theonlydjtopcat
The way he speaks about both disorders reveals his expertise.
This is a very important point, this distinction between the two disorders.
Thank you for publishing this info 🙏
Narcissistic tendencies are transferrable and someone can act narcissistic without having the disorder but just by close association with a narcissist or multiple narcissists, and those behaviors become reinforced over time.
However, if those individuals were placed in another social context where being narcissistic is not advantageous but instead detrimental to each individual, you can get a sense of whether or not they truly have the disorder.
True NPD is a very deep wound affecting an individual on a fundamental level. They are so scarred they literally lack the capacity to envision social order operating any other way than in a eat or be eaten fashion. They think to have empathy is to be weak and that those who give to them emotionally are stupid for trusting them in the first place.
It's sad because they will never be able to fully recognize the social function of empathy.
Empathic people can see the full picture, narcissists are actually the ones missing a vital piece of human intelligence.
Thankyou so much for this 💜
Great comment ❤
That's exactly what Sam Vatknin says...for this reason there is more hope for borderlines to change than for pw NPD. Pw NPD have too much ego...pw BPD have too little ego.
It's also partly genetic.
As a lay person, my observation is that it's not the psychologists fault. NPD people don't believe they are NPD and even if somehow they are coerced into seeing a professional, they wear their mask and the Dr confirms there is nothing wrong with them. How many times do couples with an NPD come out of sessions where the non-NPD person is the one with homework to do - and DOES it?
Yes, exactly! My sister's ex is shouting everywhere that he has been declared all "clear" that there is nothing wrong with him. Because psyciatrist said so.
Well, let me just tell you...😅 He is so hard level narcissist/sociopath that he does not understand where he goes wrong in his behavior and why he does not get empathy from police, social workers or lawyers 😅
But if you talk to him for an hour face to face, he comes over as misunderstood lovely man.
He is pushing on agenda that it is my sister who is a narcissist and has got psychologist to declare to him: "Yes she sounds like a narcissist based on your story". After that he has gone to narcissist abuse support groups...from where he got kicked out as they recognized him for what he is.
But he is attending therapy and is committed to it. So there is hope! For him and to us!
I wish he would continue- so interesting
Men, do not hesitate for one moment to put a restraining order against your female partner if you feel your safety and health is in jeopardy. Placing a permanent restraining order on my female partner was absolutely the wisest protective move of my adult lifetime. My only regret is not doing it years earlier. Men, be safe!
Sometimes I feel nothing and no one matters and sometimes I find myself thinking about their opinion of me. And then again I find myself thinking " Your opinion is irrelevant! " (the other person's opinion). It's a roller coaster. Typical boderline but crossing to narc back and forth.
Nothing can ever get through a narcissistic person. They have their own truth and everyone else is wrong. It's crazy that they can't see what's in front of them. Can't help them if they don't want the help.
exactly right ..my sister
My entire family
They know.. and most of them are females
Running away from them gets to them...because the fantasy they are trying to hook you in,you are refusing..not good it leaves them in the reality
Yes. Why on earth would they need help, when it's the world that's wrong? Nothing to work with, there.
Often people assume that those with BPD have no empathy or lack empathy, as is the case with other personality disorders. Most of the time I feel that I'm flat, as in I feel empathy/disgust/anger in accordance with how I imagine a normal person would; other times I feel a general coldness, often with an accompanying sense of apathy, cynicism or mistrust; but then there are other times still when I will receive a sudden burst of overwhelming empathy and emotion that could almost bring me to tears. It can truly be an emotional roller coaster.
Borderlines have high emotional empathy, low cognitive.
The most loving thing I can do is leave narcissists alone. No contact and let them deal with their shame themselves.
This way, there is respect for the self and love for sanity and peace.
Borderline= werewolf
Narcissist= vampire
borderline is what lies underneath a narcissist. Narcissism is a very good shield against the obvious chaos that a borderline displays more readily.
Never seen a Narcissist shed a tear my tears could fill an entire ocean we are not the same NPD's are sadist we are masochists
Everything you are saying is true. The masochism as a personality style is inaccessible to a narcissist even though that’s what’s inside them. The borderline never developed a false self. The borderline for better or for worse is the true self.
@@GMarieBehindTheMask thats because of the narcissistic defences that are solid, while as a borderlines you fluctuate between narcissistic defences and not having them. Borderlines can be as cold as a narcissist, but only momentarily if its not challenged. Narcissistic defences require the family to cater to them. On borderlines this does not happen, and when the child tries to engage in narcissistic defences the family does not approve it. This is why if a borderline is in the narcissistic phase, and you get angry at them.. they will just turn into a child. But they will always try to be the narcissist, basically testing the limits of the people they are dealing with.
G marie.... could not agree more...
Borderline personality disorder....is the result of severe narcissistic abuse. There’s also a good amount, of different types of borderline personality disorder.
My father...whom, never did, never will...deserve such a “title”...as, I now refer to him as only, my sperm donor (to those closest to me)...is BY far, the furthest, most repulsive-demonic...type of individual, I’ll ever try to be like. Not even, on a subconscious level. That’s because, thank you god, I’m not entirely incapable of holding empathy for others. Myself, and MANY...people w/ bpd, are fully capable of practicing empathy.
Narcissists on the other hand, are incapable..yes, even towards their own children. Even if their mask, is academy ward winning talent....I assure you, this is due to their child doing something, they’re “proud” of...making their child, an extension of them...so yes, they’re praise and demonstrate acts of love... but, oh how that act, will had have never existed...if god forbid, their child is being a child, does not get whatever it is right, and now...”THIS MAKES A FOOL” out of the narc parent. Btw, this goes for overt and covert.
Those with borderline, experience every emotion the average human being exist with, times one hundred...
Because of this being the case, there is also a difference between, someone without bpd that struggles with clinically diagnosed depression...and someone with bpd, diagnosed with depression.
This isn’t being pointed out, as a way to compete over which is more severe than the other. It’s pointed out, because they’re simply, different than each other...(anyone can research it, I’ve already ranted far too much, to elaborate lol)
Although, (depending on the talent) many overt/covert narcissists, can come to shedding a few tears..when in need of them; this isn’t genuine. If it is...9/10...the tears are for themselves. Perhaps, they’ve been caught cheating...the tears are falling. You bet your ass, they’re going to take full advantage...of claiming those tears, are in the name of love...how, much they “always f*** the best things up”...(that’s more likely to come from a covert, actually)... desperately hoping, their victim....the only one that has the right to be crying, will go along with the deflection, and reassure them...”it’s not all messed up, we can work on this..” not knowing, those tears were only produced, due to being caught..or in fear of losing their primary supply, before they were able to successfully, secure option b...to be a for sure go... lol you’ll never catch a narc, being cocky or okay about a relationship ending...unless they’re the one initiating it...or they were about to initiate it any day... because, they’ve got someone else to take your place, anyways. But...expect a Hoover, a month to 6 months..or, anytime randomly...for the rest of your life, if you don’t cut their ass off...where they deserve to be, UNABLE to even reach you.
I wish more people, were aware, that bpd is the only personality disorder, that is truly....capable of AND....MOST TIMES...very open, to receiving help. They do not, absolutely do not...enjoy the way they feel. It fucking hurts. It hurts those they love, when they lash out unintentionally...and hurting those they love, hurts them. Guilt sets it.... as though, they’ve killed that person. You will not find these things, in even the deepest cracks, of the narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths...mind. Although, there are more personality disorders to list...im only discussing these three, in comparison of bpd, cause they’re the most associated. Or, as I feel...”wrongly, associated”...
A great example, of how important...comorbidities, play a huge role, in the misconception of those who have bpd...not comorbid with any other personality disorders.....is Jodi Arias.... from what I’ve read, she had been diagnosed with bpd, long before....her disgraceful ass, murdered Travis Alexander. There are lots and lots of people out there....that will always associate bpd, with the lunatic...murderer, Jodi arias.
As though, bpd could not already have, so much more of a shit rep...it already had, without jodi’s help.... I mean, there’s really nothing I believe can be done, to fix the stigma around bpd... People could do their own, deep dive...research, and learn so much.... But at the end of the day, if someone goes into it, already having a bad experience, with ONE person...whom, could have been diagnosed or undiagnosed, from what I’ve seen for myself, it sucks... there are so many, that refuse to think any differently, than their opinion; bpd being on the same level as NPD.
For those, who’ve gone a very very long time, undiagnosed with bpd.... I don’t doubt that those around them, have struggled greatly, with them.. (depending on the type of bpd) but also, if they have even a few traits, of the other cluster b disorders.
I can tell you all this, or whoever comes along and runs into my....disgustingly long comment; not every person..who lives with borderline personality disorder, are bad. And, often times...when coming off as being manipulative, some genuinely don’t realize, they’re being manipulative. There is a reason, there are more people...clinically diagnosed with bpd, than there are...clinically diagnosed narcissists...or sociopaths, psychopaths. This is because, those three disorders, do not see they are the reason behind their issues, or the issues they cause for others.
Unlike those with bpd... if they’re more severe, really causing chaos for those they love, it may not even seem as though they’re phased by your pain, but they are. And they seek help. Not for just themselves, but for those they love. They want to change. And the most tragic thing of all, I feel....is what I mentioned at the very beginning... bpd being the result (most commonly)...of severe abuse...(generally, from a narcissist..or very..very narcissistic individual)...its unfortunate, the disorder lands them, being in the same group as who was once their abuser, or sometimes perceived as being worse. It isn’t my opinion; absolutely a fact... borderlines, feel for other human beings emotions/situations. As for those with NPD, the frontal lobe is undeveloped...stumped at 6... while having the responsibility as now an adult, to VERY well know...they have issues, but for them...it is much easier, to make everyone else the reason for any and all issues....ANYDAY...over, getting in to see a psychologist. Addressing trauma...and if their NPD wasn’t caused by trauma/neglect...and was due to their parents never teaching them correctly...that, they’re not the most important individual, in the entire world, that...they always win, no matter the rules to the game... that, being just them...makes them entitled to having anything they ask for. The point is, they’re adults and they know wrong from right... they don’t want their victims to know, they know that...they don’t want their victims to know, wrong from right...ultimately.
As much as I’ve wanted to declare myself, as having no mercy for these individuals; many times I find myself unable to help it. But because, they will fucking drain your soul from you, if you let them know...you feel for their true issues...this is what fuels my disgust for them. It’s an unfortunate disorder...just like bpd is....but for NPD, it’s fucking undoubtably, unfortunate....for every person, that ends up in their life. Btw, I understand...those with npd, have been known to seek counseling on their own (so, very rarely) but, not only is it rare....it’s gotta be literally, a life or death...life changing reason, to get them in there. Maybe divorce is the reason, they need to save their marriage... it has to be something, that shatters that mask, where it won’t go back on the same, as they knew it. Other than that...it’s normally just more dangerous, for them to be in there, outside of those circumstances. They will use everything they learn, as a collection of tools...to add to their mask.
@@GMarieBehindTheMask I have a relative who's been dxed, and I have seen them cry, but it has always been about self pity. Just my personal experience.
Behaviorally speaking borderlines never had properly timed rewards and punishments in their childhood for example parents would reward them for no reason and punish them for no reason. Also they seem neglected as a child or parents seem to have enjoyed time with their siblings a lot more than them. Because if you ask them all of their other siblings are doing good in life(healthy relationships, having a career etc).
Narcissists has only been rewarded for their good performance and felt indifferent and insignificant to their parents (and their parents made sure they felt insignificant) for bad performance.
Narcissists have lingering thoughts of performing good(just positive result for parent's eyes) despite them being objectively incompetent at something so they use a lot of charm and social skills and sometimes even illegal things(bribe, blackmail) in order to achieve what they aimed for. That's why narcissists are much more harm to society and borderlines are much more harm to the themselves.
Exactly .
And how about a borderline with vulnerable (and/or some grandiose) narcissistic traits?
No dude, my brother and I both have borderline. I know a few other diagnosed borderlines, their siblings are all disordered cluster-b. Same family, same reslut give or take a few traits. It might be your borderlines are just devaluing themselves...or their siblings were adopted in late.
@@overimagination2812 I agree me and my brother are disordered him more than me only because i seeked help. But we both struggle
Yes, that all makes sense to me after looking at my own family of origin. I found an old photo om my sister and I with our parents when I was about 7 and both parents are fully engaged with my sisters activities whilst ignoring me, only two feet away from her. Interesting idea.
Married to a BPD with vulnerable narcissistic tendencies. It’s an absolute nightmare
my best friend has BPD . they're one of the nicest people I've ever met and I love her so much ❤❤
Unhealthy people are drawn into relationships with other unhealthy people. Individuals with cluster b personality disorders are not drawn to healthy individuals…nor are healthy individuals drawn to those with mental illnesses.
I’m not demonizing you, rather informing you of reality.
@@DrPhilGoodenot true. Everything needs balance so what you say i wrong. Sorry
@@DrPhilGoodeyou are wrong. The one need the others for balance so is more typical that they meet to balance eachother.
@@Olivianorwayyy Wow, you bring up a lot of good, no great…points. I’m sure many of them will be shared mental health professionals for years to come. Not just ground breaking, EARTH SHATTERING.
May be you're npd？？because my friends (once)is npd，just bpd can toreate npd.that’s terrible
Could you make a video on the quiet borderline, thier symptoms and how they can best have control over their symptoms
What are their chances of recovery
yes, this please!
@@sharonwebb562 We are on it. Soon as we shoot are next batch, this question will be in the mix. Thanks for caring to put that question forth.
@@sharonwebb562 Zero. Therapy and medication might bring some enlightment, but ageing helps best.
I absolutely love and adore the utter compassion and empathy he has in describing these disorders, especially with how heavily stigmatized they are.
That is because they all border close to other disorders where the person became evil..society has labeled mental health issues as evil to a degree... And almost rightfully so at times. But not for the few with mental disorders who don't become evil to those around them.
Sounds like the differences in an extrovert and an introvert dealing with a lack of love from within and without. I'm an ambivert. I've falsely been accused of narcissism. All I feel is pain, by now. Never a moment of joy.
I'm a borderline and life has mainly been self abuse, neglect, hospital and police.
Borderlines punishes themselves and narcissists punishes others.
Ask the BPD partner who's being punished?
*Some* punish themselves. I was very much in the group of internalising things and being self destructive.
But there are some that do take things out on others and are abusive. We mustn't diminish that untreated people can be very toxic and damaging to those around them.
@@robertdeskoski9783 and some others around them.
This is not always true.
So true
He is so brilliant and explains it so well!
Wow, so enlightening! Thank you for the insights!
These are great. I just wish they didn't cut off so abruptly. Seemingly in the middle of a thought.
Bet there are full videos somewhere.
It’s all lack of love , doctors find it hard to help bpd patients because there taught to have no feelings towards there patients .
How can you teach bpd to love and be loved when there is no real empathy or care when being treated .
Please look up bpd brain abnormalities mri scans. People with real bpd show on mri scans that they have by definition, brain damage. One main result of childhood trauma by sexual abuse,( most bpd have been sexually abused as a child) and physical or mental abuse, is the amygdala either not developing or atrophied later on. Many parts of the brain basically not working properly. New medicine is needed to stop, treat or repair parts of the brain. Most bpd get abused first and then when they seek help they get abused(blamed) again. I spent 2 years researching and absolutely no one gives a hoot about bpd folk.
Study the brain then learn what makes parts of the brain 'happy'. It takes time but its worth it. X
Dr yeomans very nuanced! Love it
I've needed to find this video for so long, It could quite possibly have saved me. thank you
Love Dr Yeomans! He has an amazing way of explaining…please post more of his videos
My mother never got any mental health therapy but I swear she has both BPD and narcissism. She has ALL the traits of both.
it can be, also she could have other disorders as well, you can have a few...
She could, and for example, my 'ex' was clinically-diagnosed as BPD, with NPD 'co-morbidity' (aka, has symptoms of both).
Mine too. Everything points to it. The never ending fighting my parents had going for decades. My dad said I got put in the trick looking at me probably in my early teens. It wasn't until he died that I realized everything. Not good. Parental alienation and my stupidity. Life not fair. Lord have mercy. Grief.
He got put in the trick and hence so did I. Sorrow for all. Next life has to be better.
So sorry 😞 same here
This guy is really great to listen and learn from.
In 5 minutes I understood my last relationship. Thank you!
Lovely guy. Very perceptive.
Just to say, I enjoy rewatching these vignettes with the docs. If one comes into my view for whatever reason, I'll grab it for my Watch Later list and enjoy it again. Thank you for this gift. // OOO also have Luuuuved the hot orange and pink and high hair and poster graphics!
Your channel is SO important. You are an inspiration to me. I hope i'll be able to produce such quality content in french (Québec, Canada). Thank you so much for being.
Oh, This is great!! I love getting to the underpinnings.
Just because I'm coming into the subject as victim of nurses doesn't mean or trying to figure out how to extent the people who victimized me were being borderline doesn't mean that I don't want to understand in a really 3 dimensional from the inside out way what even my abusers were doing and why they were doing it and how they became the way they are.
Even as a victim, I still have my intellectual life and interest and want to understand the world as thoroughly as possible ...
...and I love a video like this that enables me to do so ...
...and the speaker has a lovely presence and I'm really interested to now be able to follow him...
I'm seeing him just for the 1st time -- so this is great and Very Exciting! I love finding new intellectual stars to admire and learn from. Especially those like this speaker and R. Gannon who seem earnest and compassionate.
As a person with NPD, I can say that this man really gets it. It's a terrible disorder, where the person suffers profoundly and all that pop-psychology has to offer is shaming and demonisation. One day, people will understand this disorder and be horrified by what NPD sufferers had to live with. I understand that the people who suffered from narcissist relationships need help, coping skills and attention but hopefully this can happen while understanding that empathy is also required for the NPD sufferer. I hope it's not too long to wait for this because too many people's lives (on both sides) are being ruined from a lack of understanding.
No amount of empathy will help someone who only cares about their own feelings. When you're broken beyond repair and the only way to cope is to destroy everyone and everything around you, you are beyond help.
@@sarahwagland1559 the physciatry in itself is profound, i am a recovering borderline, its a subconcious brain washing to the victim and perpetrators, all imprinting, its a fantasy they are locked into and never asked to be part of, I am cluster B only ones get a window out. There go i but for the grace of god. I am the by products of malignant narrcassism , while being a huge part of my own problems subconciously so i do feel your pain.
Wait... you're saying people WITH npd should be treated with care and others should show sympathy for them?? If that is true, you can go duck yourself
I dont think that you have npd because a npd never accepts their situation
I think golden children can get npd
The lighting in this production is fantastic.
Thank you. We will relay to our awesome DP!
thanx so much for your channel and work!
German Psychiatrists explanations are usually so much less understandable and well delivered. So, many thanx from Germany 🙏.
I am NPD,in therap and self aware trying to have empathy,well cognitive but yes,i loved video thank you on it. Wanted to say that NPD can be trying to do better as there is stereotypes they never change
Ok fatty
NPDs have empathy.. And I believe we can change (I mean human NPDs, not sure about the troll type).
Yes NPD has empathy yet lowered, as i red they use it when they need it so its existent. But ill put it this way you have selctive ciracle o people you show it to and not to others. It's drastic a little since my explanation of full thing would require me to make the whole video.@@ThreetwoOne-wu7ye
very helpful, great channel.
so inspiring!!!!!! and sweet !! bravo!!
Very interesting and easy to understand.
Thank you.
💕🇺🇲
4:05 HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. That's how I felt most of my life. I still pretty much feel that from my parents. I don't talk with my mom (narcissist) anymore and I talk to my dad very little.
is your mom diagnosed by a medical professional? please do not self diagnose another person
Interesting video
he is so good
Two sisters.
One's ugly, mistreated, does poorly in school, rarely celebrated.
Another, beautiful, but also mistreated, does well in school, often celebrated, but never feels it.
Preoccupied and bpd easier to treat. Dismissive npd is harder to deal with and closely to psychosis in some npd patients. The bpd patient has empathy when not very angry. I see bpd as more developed than npd; not parent basing. Easier to work with borderline personality; they have compassion.
Arghhh I JUST CAN'T THANK YOUR PRODUCTIONS BIG ENOUGH!!! Love to you and your guests for the great help you continue to give me!!!! Arghhh!
Thank you thank you! We are so glad this is helpful to you!!!!
Thank you
FYI, appr. 30% of people with either disorder also have the other disorder. So there is a 30% chance that if one has one disorder they also have the other disorder. So if you meet someone who vacilates between the two disorders probably has both, which can be quite confusing, they basically have a split personality, half the time they will seem empathic, the other half the time, not.
Just cried tears of relief. Where can I get an appt with this guy?
Fascinating. Wow. Thsnk you.
Thank you, this is helpful. I'm trying to understand someone who has both borderline and narcissistic traits.
Elene Gusch, you are absolutely gorgeous, hope you are not with a narcissist 😈!
I have level 2 autism and inattentive ADHD along with mental health conditions. My best friend growing up had BPD and the man I married had NPD. I was really hurt by both of them, but the NPD person was a lot more consistent in their behaviour. The friemd who claimed to have BPD (I don't know how they were diagnosed) would be my friend for months at a time but then turn on me, accusing me of things I never did. I believe the person who had NPD knew he was lying and denying (he claimed the abuse he caused me as his own) but I think the person with BPD truly believed I was attacking them anonymously which was completely false.
I wish he would talk for 2 hours like kernberg.
So helpful
Growing up there wasn't indifference to my failures, my failures were definitely responded to. I was definitely pushed to succeed (usually at things my mother wanted to be good at, but I had no interest in), and even if I did pretty well, there was always something wrong with it, so the indifference came in then, or like, if I was actually happy with something I did, it would be picked apart or I'd be called selfish.
I feel pretty much a low level all the time of "it doesnt really matter if I do well but I have to do as well as possible so I am not hurt worse".
I grew-up in a cave. Darkness covered my life. It was a harrowing childhood. Stay away. The world is dangerous. Still can't feel. It's a cold world,
I can relate to this
I can relate and so sorry for your experience…
So clear and consise. I love him. So many so called experts say way to much ans teach vey little,
Im so confused right now.
I do feel empathy , intense guilt , I treat people with care ans kindness. I'm even a people pleaser who needs everyone to love me. what makes me think I could have NPD is my need for constant admiration and attention. without them I feel empty . I get my 'fuel' only from imaginary people and my fantasies are identical with those of a narcissist.
I know I'm not a special person but I really want to be and its ruining my life .
This is exactly how I feel
My problem is I keep everything inside so if I end up really not liking something a therapist said or I just don't like the energy or tone used, I just won't return. I've done that with a few psychs. There was a time when I was waiting to go inside and another patient went ahead of me because it was an emergency. I just left, I was offended because in a prior session she had been on the phone with Verizon because she had to activate her new phone.
I tried meds instead and was put on over 10 over the last 14 years but I'm pretty much still in the same boat as when I was 14. It doesn't help that I live with a parent who has BPD and another who has emotionally detached -- both extremely overbearing.
Thank God I found this channel. I believe I have Borderline Personality disorder, in a relationship with a narcissist. I was exhausted from viewing videos that insist that there is no hope for us.
How do you feel now?
Get diagnosed. Otherwise leave the narc asap. Your Borderline might be C-PTSD.
Many people still think we are Just Like Narcissist 😢
Now imagine how Narcissist feels.
Because in a while we will know how to treat them and then they will say exactly the same as you here.
They'll be like "Many people still think we are just like Psychopath :( ".
They sad, sad people.
Insulting npds is a good thing in your mind?
I know the difference. My mom was BPD, and though relationships were hard for her and us, she was capable of loving and being loved. Blessed you sweetie❤
@@justadult3493 It's narcissistic.
Huge difference.
Narcissists don't have to be unstable and chaotic, like people with BPD.
But people with BPD can appear to be classic narcissists.
The NPD and the BPD can be mixed in one person, but it's not often it happens.
Dr.Ramani said that 38% of people with BPD also have NDP.
Narcs have more stability than people with BPD, but not compared to 'normals'.
@@colywogable And it's utter, anti-scientific bullshit. The borderline structure is what lies beneath the narcissist. Narcissism is basically a defense against the same structure that causes BPD. But they go in completely opposite directions. NPD lacks any capacity for empathy, BPD has overt capacity for empathy, for example. ruclips.net/video/DlopY4DfFV4/видео.html
Ramani is the archetype of a Narcissist herself. Careful with her...
The obstacle is the path. What are the parts of bonding or personality that narcicists use to relate or create a hinge to latch to supply persons? That is the entrance to narc mind
My daughter-in-law has this but she also has complex trauma and lots of mind/body symptoms and health problems plus anxiety/depression. She’s destroying everything because she wears it all like a badge and never gets help. I’m watching my grandchildren and my son pay for it. I just wish she would get help.
Exactly.
'What do they think of me ?'
'Do you like me ?'
Yet i also sometimes got that 'you don't mean anything to me' attitude.
I wasn't loved for performance, nor was i loved for just being me. Hmmmm.
It's a sh-t place to reside in.
@@zer0creative930 a shit show everyday a recurring nightmare!
This man and the series in general are brilliant. Thank you for making these professionals known to a broader public.
Is there anywhere I can hear Frank Yeomans lectures fully ?
Could you please ADD English subtitles! We're not living in a Spanish country! This is very important for deaf and hearing impaired Americans to understand Borderline and NPD and I am one of them with bpd.
Do you have any advice on what to do when someone is experiencing this ? My girlfriend can get so angry and verbally say things to me and I try to calm her but she doesn’t want to hear it .. when she sees how upset I am from her acting this way she usually snaps out of it and feels immense guilt .. she cries and apologizes and tells me it’s so hard for her to control it and I try to be very understanding .. I think all mental illness are somewhat similar in a way .. I have very bad depression and I try to think of her BDP from my perspective , when I feel I’m in a depressive episode I can’t just snap out of it instantly .. it’s the hardest thing to control the thoughts I have and the sadness I feel and I imagine that’s how she feels when she’s experiencing her anger .. it’s just a different emotion than I have with my depression (being sadness and numb) .
My issue is more of generalization rather than full blown idealization/devaluation. In looking for that secure other in the absence of such, you can tend to look for authority figures that you hope are safe or capable of protection. In real life, sometimes that is needed. Ultimately, my hope is to integrate that in myself.
here is the thing i train my self not to have a wedge. vulnerability is dangerous, and definitely punishment mindset. towards me and others
Sometimes, if not often, a BPD diagnosis can be an expression of therapeutic distain.
Insecure attachment is usually a sign of neglected needs and trauma as a child, not an intrinsic personality trait.
I feel that narcissism is possibly a necessary basic survival instinct so that we all need to intelligently assess our motivations and intent.
as a borderline i can testify that i am difficult but i have tons of empathy, can sense what others feel for them, i wonder all the time why i can't make people love me, i see beauty in kind people etc.....please anyone trying to lump us with narcissists tread carefully!
@@leahflower9924 I don't understand why you guys care so much, like what beauty is there in anyone
Borderline is more primitive , narcissism is the shell ( defense that forms ) as a result of the fear , neglect , abuse
BPD underneath
I wish I could grow a shell...
@@chosenslytherin2075 Date me or any other rage-filled borderline and not the quiet type, we'll almsot force you to grow one as a shell is all we got. I think male borderlines are more pissed off, more externalizing...generally.
Sweet N Shy Slytherin no you don’t. Really.
@@chosenslytherin2075 Better to inform yourself on narcs. You'll see the red flags. Then run...
I don’t know if I have NPD or BPD. My mother was diagnosed with BPD and bipolar disorder, and has narcissistic tendencies… I was removed from the home at 13, so childhood was harder, but I have realized that in conversation I consistently exaggerate my problems, notice I’m talking about myself very often, and have lacked guilt from any negative actions I have taken. I definitely “split” very often. In the past I’ve had therapy for trauma, and have been diagnosed with PTSD and ADHD. However, I think my problem is more with my brain, and less with the experiences I’ve had… how do I start talking with a therapist about that? “I think I have NPD”??
Ask the folks around you. If they pity you, you're a BPN. If they hate you, you're a NPD. Nobody around? Definitely a narc.
Talk to a therapist about your symptoms
for so many years I’ve been trying to work out if im bipolar or borderline, and i think im borderline because I want to be bipolar because I feel like that would be easier to deal with, but when he started talking about how a narcissist has never felt loved for just being and always has to perform for love ,, I never really identify with anything ever but that was like ‘thats it!!!!! thats what I feel. Im not a human person
At 10 secs in it stops and the buffer wheel spins. It's not my phone - other videos play fine. I've tried several times and it's always the same. Can you please reload? Thanks!
Ive noticed some videos not just this one havw been doing this last 2 days.
BPD with vulnerable narcissism was my ex wife in spades. It was a living hell.
Thanks for this video. Could you please make any video about the identity disturbance? What's the core, how to deal with it etc. Thanks.
Gade Vulpes, we do have some videos that address this... I would check out our videos featuring Otto Kernberg, especially these two - ruclips.net/video/gg9o7SBZvpU/видео.html & ruclips.net/video/U8DrnD-mJag/видео.html. And... next round of interviews, we will include a questions about specifically addressing identity diffusion and what that is.
What about the covered narcissistic that can show more insecurities, would you also say that his attachment style is dismissive?
A borderline patient can be aware of the disorder.
A narcissistic patient is almost always unaware..
There's another difference. Borderline patients are not known for a lack of empathy.
How can we differentiate the two? I believe I am a narcissist, but being aware of my traits doesn’t make it any easier for me to address them and make positive change. I struggle with my love relationship all the time.
@@DanieleManca1983 Nothing wrong with the narc, the narc says. And no soul searching on YT, I can assure you. If you are aware of narcissistic traits you more likely are a narcissisist's victim. Do you have empathy? If you have, check out C-PTSD.
@@marcharsveld2914 I think I do have empathy, just don’t know how to rank how much of it.
@@DanieleManca1983 I really feel for you and don't have time to write much now, so I'll just mention that Dr Mark Ettensohn from Heal NPD and Dr Diana Diamond have had success with assisting highly narcissistic people, if you're still interested. 😊
How do you figure, I think they both more similar then different. Research shown bpd have less empathy too. Also the upbringing is definitely not always the problem. Some children have bad upbringing and become kind empathic children others have good upbringing and are just bad people.. I think we are giving people way too much empathy where it is not deserved. As an adult everybody is responsible for themselves no excuses to treat other badly..
Interesting...
If a person had never experienced real love just for being itself, but for performance, and developes a NPD - what happens vice versa: if the strive to perform well to get attention, love and tributed, won‘t sucseed either?
I am kinda wondering what it is to be loved just for what you are. But it's always some effort to be me, and not to jump on people who are tended to irresponsibly do bad things to me and others
Could you be loved? - Bob Marley
I Am That I Am - Peter Tosh
Yes how to treat
Just a wild guess, but the biggest trait I have that points to narcissism is that i have no qualms and no shame about praising and complimenting myself lol. Pretty harmless though, i dont mind calling myself out on it or asking others to stop me if i talk about myself too much
My friend that’s a therapist (not my therapist) had me do a little attachment style test (for lack of a better word). She knows I have BPD and at the time was seeing me completely spiral over the end of a relationship. She was confused and surprised that I fell under secure attachment, I wasn’t.
A partner has to do something to trigger my abandonment fears (in this case my partner would frequently break up with me when he was angry and then get back with me the same day- so I was frequently anxious in the relationship- worried about the next time he would end things and if it would be permanent). Another relationship I had, the person would cheat on me and not admit to it unless he was sure I had found him out. I was in constant paranoia because I knew the only way I would know if he was doing this was if I found out. He was never going to tell me (I’m aware these were unhealthy relationships, but my point right now is attachment styles). Even though these triggers were detrimental to my well being and would cause excruciating pain, even though one of the relationships I mentioned started healthy and I was blindsided by their cheating, it has not seemed to effect my attachment style in other relationships.
I guess I’m wondering if this is common in someone with BPD.
This is useful stuff.. trying to find empathy for a deeply narcissistic parent.
My Father Makes Me Suffer - Plum Village
This helped me.
is your parent diagnosed by a medical professional? please do not self diagnose another person
This video doesn't have automatic Eng subtitles. Could you help it?
We are looking into auto-captions / working on it. More soon and thanks for informing us.
@@BorderlinerNotes Thank you very much! Actually, I understand quite everything, but it would be a further help.
Please CC for hearing impair