17:39 "This wave is composed of 46 Avro Manchesters, 165 Handley Page Hampdens, 28 Armstrong Whitworth Whitleys, and over 300 Vickers Wellingtons." Definitely the most British thing I've ever heard by a wide margin.
4 Group contained a number of the RCAF's bomber squadrons at the time, although by the end of the year all of these would be moved to the new RCAF 6 Group.
@@dakotafaillers8588 You'd be surprised, by the end of World War Two the USAAF 8th airforce in Europe had about 17,000 aircraft of all kind, a large chunk of which would be fighters, Britain produced about 17,000 heavy (4 engined bombers) bomber with total bomber force being just over 35,000 aircraft, combine this with fighter command and the RAF presence in Europe was absolutely massive, of course not all 35,000 aircraft were active at once but the point still stands, a lot of the glory of the bombers is focussed on the 8th even though at any point of time they were considerably smaller than RAF forces in Europe.
I visited the Cologne cathedral in 1978. I don’t know if you still can but at the time I could climb the stairs all the way to the top of the spire. It’s amazing that the cathedral, which took 200 years to build, was missed by All the bombing as every building surrounding it was devastated.
Allies tend to avoid destroying religious buildings, I visited a lot of French cities that were heavily bombed during WWII and usually churches were spared
@@Cailloumax When area bombing an entire city, it's pretty much impossible to avoid single targets. They were largely lucky. French cities tended to not be bombed nearly as heavily since they were occupied allied cities rather than German or other Axis nation cities.
In a documentary I saw (can't recall the name now), there was a witness to it all, a young German boy. Apparently the Allies flew leaflets the day before telling them the bombs where coming the next night. The boy's family didn't believe it, they shrugged it off. The boy woke up to the bombing. Everything was on fire. Their building was burning up. The old brother told the boy (the younger of the two) to stay put and he'd be back. The brother left, pushed through the burning hallway et al. The brother never returned and was never found. But somehow the young boy survived. He was the only one out of his family that did (as I recall the details of it).
The town in England my dad grew up in was in an area the bombers would form up. He always said how loud it was, add to that the bombs and flak guns returning fire it must have been terrifying for everyone on the ground.
My grandma was in cologne that night. They fled to the airshelter and the next morning half of the appartment block was gone. My great grandfather gave all the kids cigarettes to calm them. Later she stumbled while walking over what she initially believed to be a charred tree stump. It was a burned body .
My dad flew on this raid. He was a navigator on Wellington No. W476, piloted by F/S Walters. His log book entry reads "30-5, 22:50, Operations - Cologne - incendiaries - clear - moonlight - target identified". It is a very clinical description of such a devastating mission.
The indefatigable Poles were a huge asset to the Allies even after their country collapsed. I have always admired the Polish spirit to remember their nation and it's heritage throughout history during multiple century long occupations be foreign powers.
I wouldn't count on it. About 15 years ago I thought that the Internet would be a great help in stopping a future world war because how easy it is for citizens of modernised countries to make connections and friendships that simply were not possible before. Nowadays I am not so sure, and what could have been our greatest asset could be our worst enemy because of the way state actors can manipulate huge populations via troll/bot farms and the rapid dissemination of misinformation. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
As a person living in Cologne now they're still finding bombs from these bomber runs on a weekly basis on housing projects, etc. Generally means whole districts are evacuated until the bomb can be diffused or otherwise disposed off
@@brentonherbert7775 Yeah and the video is about the Cologne bombing campaign, get a life dude. You think anyone there alive now had anything to do with any of this shit? Meanwhile you still seem to have it out for them for no reason
@@maxhill7065 The cope is real with this one "Is JuSt A ViDeO" Tell you what. Thats now my reply to the very first thing you said :) so go shove it lmao.
So they bought a bomber called the Havok, named it the Boston, built a ground attack intruder variant, and called _that_ the Havoc. The RAF, everybody.
@@headshothunt3r414don't even get me started on aircraft names "This is the B-17!" "Aw cool, so the next bomber will be the B-18?" "Well no, the B-18 already exists and was actually put into service before the B-17" "So then the next will be the B-19?" "Well ya see, that's a prototype.....that doesn't work and is essentially a fever dream." "B-20?" "Nope, we call it the A-20" "21?!?!" " 'nother prototype, actually predates the 20....and something else but the timeline says it won't be finished until the 2020s" "22!!!!??" "B-18 with new engines..."
My great-grandfather participated in this raid (Navigating a wellington for the RNZAF 75th squadron). His logbook states: WAR OPERATIONS COLOGNE 1330 aircraft on target. City burning from end to end. Moderate flak. Attacked by junkers 88 on return, rear gunner beat him off.
It's incredible when you think of how they had to manage and coordinate over 1000 Bombers for this raid, getting all the air crews and maintenance personnel assembled, the parts and munitions they had to bring together to every single aircraft, the planning that had to be done before they took off and the routes taken, every plan and backup plan and contingency that had to be created and executed, and so on.
My great aunt was a little child, when the bombing run/firestorm of Hamburg happened and she lived in a small town 70 km north of Hamburg. She told me, that she stood on a field with her family in the middle of this night and the sky in the south looked like dawn. As a german born in 85' i don't take responsibility for what my grandfathers and great grandfathers did in WWII, but it is my responsibility and civic duty to make sure, this never happens again.
My grandmother lived about 30 km away from Hamburg and told me how she and her little sister sat on the wall of their farm, watching the city burn in the distance. Hearing her talk about „Christmas trees in the sky“, probably flares or incendiaries I guess, was absolut chilling. Nothing a 10 year old should ever have to witness. I was born in ‘99 and can only agree with your statement
Just like im sure the germans stopped it from happening again after WW1... Just like the Japanese stopped it from happening... Just like the iranians stopped it from happening... Just like the russians stopped it from happening... Dont make promises you cant keep. Dont feel bad for people who the majority supported it. Last i checked there werent any mass letters of protest to the london blitz.
The video mentioned the two bombers that marked the target by dropping incendiary ammunition. Afaik those were called "Christmas trees" because they were clusters of small (phosphorous?) bombs that came down burning. My mother was born in Berlin in 1940. She and my grandparents were bombed by the RAF in 1944 and had to flee the city. She still remembers the night in the air raid shelter. And she still doesn't like sirens. My other grandpa was in the German army, he is buried on Crimea. I share the responsibility: never again!
Fight a conventional war with your massive advantage in weapons and material? As opposed to murdering a few hundred thousand civilians that aren’t to become combatants for another 10 years?
Only when I saw Leslie Manser's picture did I recognise him from the painting hanging in my former school's dining hall! A fellow former pupil. Good to hear his story told again here.
I live near Cologne and Bonn, and it is weird to see how "ugly" cologne is compared to Bonn. Reason being that Bonn's commander surrendered very quicky, avoiding massive Bombardement, keeping most of the beautiful parts of the city intact. Cologne on the other hand is a random mixture of post war concrete and very modern glass buildings. There are multiple undetonated Bombs every year in cologne, while I don't even know if I've heard of one in Bonn yet. The two cities are less than 20km apart. 85 years later you can still clearly tell which city was annihilated, and which parts got spared.
The sheer scale of Germany’s response to the bombing campaign demonstrates its necessity. The Luftwaffe was immobilised and eventually obliterated because of it. Flak ammunition production took up huge reserves of resources that Germany could not afford. And the destruction of Germany’s city centres forced the dispersion of industry, which when followed up with The Transport Plan and the Oil Offensive, basically crippled the Wehrmacht’s lines of supply. However I think the words of Sir Arthur Wellesley say it best: “The only thing worse than a battle lost, is a battle won”
@SoloRenegade That's incorrect. The bombing campaign forced the withdrawal of thousands of 88 mm which were desperately needed on the Eastern Front. It also kept the bulk of the Luftwaffe within Germany, the redirection of resources to build aircraft instead of tanks as well as the destruction of infrastructure that crippled already weak logistics. Also, one of the strategic objectives was to shoot the Luftwaffe out of the sky prior to the D Day landings. It had a massive impact on the outcome of the war.
@@ExpatChef71arguably the allies used just as many resources building bombs and bombers, which instead could have been used to build strike fighters or just fighters, to then mass attack airfields and destroy planes on the ground
@@catfunt5583 The thing is that the allies were nowhere near as starved for resources and production output since the U.S fully entered the war, and with it, basically the full resources of the Americas.
Crazy to think that at that range even the "smaller" twin engine Wellington still carried the same payload as a B-17 but only a third of what the Halifax and Lancaster carried, they were a game changer for Bomber Command.
I think that the resources Germany had to put towards air defence was the most important effect from the bombing campaign. Thousands of guns and aircraft otherwise used to fight the USSR.
I agree, I was going to comment on it myself. This debate will never truly be resolved but it's right that it occurs. I always find myself conflicted in what to think. Is strategic bombing in itself a war winner? Probably not. Does it speed the result, most likely. From a lives lost perspective I don't think this can ever be fully analysed. All the same. Good to see a fair and balanced video.
I think he sanitises the consequences and is giving too much respect for the justifications given. He doesn’t mention dehousing as the policy instead framing this as purely aimed at clear industrial targets, he doesn’t really mention the desire to break enemy morale by terror and Harris later own justifications that “well the blockade in World War 1 killed far more civilians from starvation” or “I value the life of one British Grenadier over 5 million civilians”. I just cannot understand the length people go to in defending this.
Quick add: What you are showing is not "Neumarkt" (Newmarket) but "Heumarkt" (Haymarket). Neumarkt is also seen on the map, a few blocks (950 m) to the west.
Some morons will even claim the nukes were unnecessary and that Japan was "ready to surrender" but that the mean and evil US just wouldn't let them because they wanted to test their new toy. Those same dumbasses will ignore the fact that the Japanese military attempted a coup against the emperor AFTER both nukes had been dropped to prevent him from surrendering and to keep the war going. If anything, they got off light with only two nukes, the victims of the Japanese brutal conquests and genocides will tell you as much. To quote a former "comfort woman" (sex slave) I heard from years ago, "I'll never understand why the Americans stopped at just two." A sentiment that I have been told is not uncommon among the victims of the Japanese and their descendants. Read into The Rape of Nanking, or watch interviews with survivors, like one man who had to watch the Japanese bayonet his mother and baby sibling for sport. Maybe then some of you apologist dipshits will understand. The fact that a NAZI (John Rabe, "The Good Nazi") is regarded as hero in China for evacuating hundreds of thousands of people away from the Japanese in Nanking should be more than fucking telling at how monstrous and brutal they were. To quote him: "I am totally puzzled by the conduct of the Japanese in this matter. On the one hand, they want to be recognized and treated as a great power on a par with European powers, on the other, they are currently displaying a crudity, brutality, and bestiality that bears no comparison." Had the invasion of mainland Japan gone through, the deaths would have been in the millions and that isn't even considering the famine that was starting due to the blockade that would have killed likely millions on its own. So, yes, the nukes were the moral choice. But if you go the nuclear museums in Hiroshima, they would have you believe that Japan was a poor, innocent victim of US aggression, that they didn't deserve to be attacked and did nothing wrong, complete with young children who wait outside the museum for Anglo-looking people so they can harass them about "being proud of what they did" to their innocent Japan. The same country and people that refuse to acknowledge their atrocities, celebrates war criminals at shrines dedicated to them, and even justifies or celebrates the war crimes (the same ones they claim never happened, paradoxically. Rest in piss, Shinzo Abe). They have also pressured and forced other countries to tear down monuments/memorials to victims of their atrocities. And their school history books just erase more and more of their atrocities every time they get issued new ones. A pathetic people and a pathetic culture with no real sense of responsibility or accountability if it means their precious "Face" will be damaged. Cover-up after cover-up, denial after denial. They'll give cheap lip service on the international stage but do the opposite at home. It is thoroughly disgusting. The Germans at least enforce the teaching of their atrocities in schools and make denying them a crime, which they actually enforce and prosecute for. German accountability might not be perfect, but at least its fucking measurable and notable. I apologize for rambling, this topic just pisses me off so fucking much. Rather, the dumbfuck apologists and revisionists do.
no thanks. there are far more important and interesting stories taht need to be told A Band of Brothers style take on the naval battles for the Philippines (climax being the Battle fo Samar) would be FAR more appropriate.
Have you read Len Deightons book Bomber? It details a single fictional raid with perspectives from both sides. I think it would make a great mini series but would never be made as not all the germans are portrayed as heartless nazis
@@SoloRenegade Er, and what do they have to do with Commonwealth airmen? RAF Bomber Command suffered 45% casualties and their smallest plane (Hampden) carried the same bomb load as a B-17, why shouldn't their crews' hugely significant contribution to the war be told?
@@lastguy8613 it could get made. Everyone knows not all Germans were murderous 💩heads. Some were actually decent human beings. And yeah, bombs don't discriminate regarding such matters, unfortunately.
Spent many years in Germany and visited the cathedral often. You can still walk the tons of stairs to the top. The front left took bomb damage. You can see it. The Nazis refused to release the materials needed to repair it. A Major in the army refused the order and it was repaired. HQ had the major arrested and charged with treason. His firing squad was avoided by the backlash of cologne citizens. Always loved the story and visiting the McDonald's next door. You can order beer in German McDonald's!
What a great job, Operations Room! Your videos are getting better every time. The attack on Cologne was horrific, a terrible example of how awful war is for everyone.
This Channel is awesome. Coming from Canada with love. I got recalled this week, more boots needed at home base. As more boots on the ground leave for Europe. I’m heading for Oakville, ON CAN tomorrow. 32nd Canadian Brigade Group, 4th Canadian Division. Campbell Company. I’m not going overseas for this one, but help prepare those that are. 🇨🇦
I was born in cologne and live here. Sadly, the bombings destroyed so much of the beautiful city (which has history dating back to B.C.). You can see this in the city because there are a lot of ugly buildings that were quickly built after the war ended.
Buddy , what happen in Cologne is German fault ! , I was born in Poznan 55% of city was destroyed because of Germany in ww2 ! , Germans are not offers of ww2 , Germans are villains , you guys have started the war , and you lost the war .
I visited Cologne and understand what you mean. My home city of Plymouth was heavily bombed by the Luftwaffe. Only London received more Kg of bombs. It was a beautiful medieval city with many historic buildings. It was also rebuilt using brutalist concrete "architecture" and will never be the admired place it once was. War is tragedy for people and places.
You can look just about anywhere in all aspects of life; wherever you may gaze you will still find the shadows of this war that only ended 79 years ago.
Die Nazis haben ihren Teil dazu beigetragen. Für die Ost West Achse vom Aachener Weiher über die Deutzer Brücke bis Opladener wurden in den 30er schon hunderte Häuser platt gemacht. Und ein großteil der "historischen" Gebäude um den Heumarkt sind Rekonstruktionen aus dem selben Zeitraum
I am going to have to dig out my uncle's journal and check the date to see what he experienced this day. He kept a journal of everything from planes lost to men and parachutes. There's a copy in the Library of Congress but I have the original and anytime I come across any type of bombing missions I check it out. He rotated out between the tail gunner and ball turret being the little man in the group. 27 missions over the English Channel.
This was the result of a concept of total war, the idea that all aspects of a country’s war making potential was a legitimate target, the same concept that brings us to MAD, mutually assured destruction.
Anyone who doesn't consider military industrial centers as legitimate targets are idiots who will damn their soldiers to capture, torture and death. We know the effects of this idiocy as it happened in Vietnam. A great many of the 58 thousand were victims of this insane stupidity.
Indeed. When every part of a country is part of its war effort, the distinction between combatant and non-combatant starts to get really blurry. The guy shooting at you certainly is one, but then what about the munitions factory supplying him bullets? And once we've made that step, what about the people working in that factory? Each one of them is a part of the enemy war machine, why should any of them be exempt? It's easy to sit here and judge in the 21st century, but none of us have experience such a war. We have no place passing judgement.
@@DarkFenix2k5 Don't forget the "innocent civilians" who vote warmongers into power and allow them to remain, and pay taxes to support the war. Only the children are true victims.
@@DarkFenix2k5the only innocent people were the kids. Assisting the war effort made you a legitimate target exactly the same if you use civilian infrastructure for military purposes
I would like to urge alll the people commenting along the lines of "thank god this doesn't happen today" to watch 20 Days In Mariupol. Between 100 to 300 times the death toll of the Cologne attack was inflicted upon Mariupol's inhabitants over a few months in 2022. Never again, right?
@basemanawakens6089 You love to comment on war crimes committed by the Ukrainians against “the civilians of Donbass”. The war in Donbass is one of the most documented wars in history, if the Ukrainians were so terrible and cruel, why didn’t you find footage of this and send it to the UN Human Rights Commission? Let me guess, Sweetheart, you “forgot”?
15:08 So if the operation hadn't been postponed multiple times, it might not have taken place during a full moon, and the diversionary fires might have worked?
Generally the idea was to have both a clear night and a large moon. So there was some give in the recipe for the moon phases to wait for the weather to match. Having mentioned the weather , there is some really interesting history on how weather, meteorology, and meteorologists (!) influenced WWII. With the Germans even setting up weather stations in Canada and mutual attacks on weather stations in the Arctic. Have a look here for an example: ruclips.net/video/Sii_9YMYSHg/видео.htmlsi=iH2XbdbBO2364T_f Edited to add this one: ruclips.net/video/_nRjZSTKPEE/видео.htmlsi=5jTVdpLtKRcnQO9L
I remember my great great aunt who was a young girl living in cologne during the war telling me about several air raid alarms. She used to take her parrot in her shirt into the bunker. One day she said there was another alarm, her neighbours got used to it and ignored it staying at home. My great great aunt came out the bunker to find their house wiped out.
11:39 I'm nitpicking, but that map is incorrect for 1942. The Dutch Flevo-Polders seen on the map did not come about until well after the war (1950's-1960's). It's not really that relevant for the video. But just thought I'd mention it.
If you look at the context of morality, war in it of itself could be considered immoral because you're forcibly taking what is rightfully the possession of others by either invading or simply attacking. the action of needing to hurt or kill someone just to gain something is already barbaric and the fact that a war can be started by a few people while others who had nothing to do with the decision to go to war are the ones who will suffer for it is the saddest part. A Russian old woman living in Ukraine sums this up perfectly. "People at the top can pick a fight they want but the people at the bottom will be the ones to suffer from it".
@@roryr8 Putin and his government are the ones who started the war. The people of Russia just ended up seeking for revenge after their loved ones who were sent to fight the war never made it back. Putin was the one who pushed to wheel of suffering and hatred, everyone who got caught in it just ended up going with the flow eventually making an endless cycle of resentment and revenge.
My great grandfather died in this bombing. My grandma told me afterwards she would walk around the city turning over every dead body she found but she would never find him.
One aspect the debate about area bombing constantly fails to acknowledge is that the technology for precision bombing literally didn't exist at the time. Anything claimed to be "precision bombing" was still effectually area bombing.
My grandmother is polish, and was raised and lived in Poland. When the Nazi's invaded, there was panic to get out. My Great Godfather who is Russian grabbed the family and got on a boat, escaping the invasion, all the way to America, where my mom was eventually born etc etc. The way I found this out is astounding - before then I only knew my grandmother escaped Poland but no details. In the attic of my mom's old childhood home there was a very old box dated back to the 1900s that we were afraid to open out of suspicion it was possibly an explosive funny enough. But opening it I saw photos of my Great Godfather, whose name is Joseph (may he rest in peace) and all kinds of papers with his handwriting detailing the events of the Nazi attack on Poland. Crazy to think how the invasion really changed my entire existence and where I was born, along with my mother.
A game designer I know did a game on this subject, from the planning, to the targeting, to the resolution, of Bomber Command missions. He was of the opinion that while it was a war crime, it was also inevitable.
"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them" - it's crazy how this quote can be used to describe the current day events without any change what-so-ever.
The difference was the amount of bombing though. After the Germans defeated (and conquered) France, Paris the capitol city was still largely intact. And so was Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland (Warsaw Infrastructure was still 95% intact). All western countries that Germany conquered were still mostly intact without much strucutal damage. But after the Allies landed on Normandy in 1944, many major french cities (Caen, Toulun) were completely obliterated by Britsh and American bombers Even the "Friends" of the Allies suffered more casualties form Allied bombings than from the german bombers It is estimated that around 3~4 million german civilians and a further 3 million Japanese civilians (incl. Women and children) were killed by American and British bombers, which combined is literally the same as the 6 million jews killed by the Nazis As well as thousands of French civilians were also killed by Allied bombers, since the french cities Caen and Toulon still had thousands of residents living there when the cities were bombed by the Allies without any warnings The argument that the bombings of entire cities "saved lifes" (well only the lifes of military personnel anyway) by killing the civilians of the enemy, in the hope to force the enemy to surrender, is just as barbaric and satanic as what the Nazis did on the same Level. And now many people living in America and Britain even regret they fought against Germany in WW2, seeing what the consequences mean in todays world now that the Jews completely dominate politics and world affairs, many Americans today realize they fought the wrong enemy in WW2
Hey operations room I've been waiting for a long time for a video about the battle of the Santa Cruz Islands could you plan to make one? I've looked on other similar channels but no one does it like you❤
Great video, very well narrated. Thank you. Hope you don't mind this quibble at 15:35 the 2nd, 3rd etc waves of aircraft are not 'preceding waves', they are 'succeeding' or 'following'. The first wave precedes the rest.
That picture, @27:30 of the cathedral towers surrounded by ruins says it all. Its an artifact from the raid I've never seen before. Incredible. On the question of the morality of area bombing, that 'argument' began with (but not isolated to) David Irving, but even he relates RAF policy to the precedent set in Warsaw and Rotterdam by the Luftwaffe. Moreover when Albert Speer was interviewed post war (World at War Episode 12, Whirlwind) he speaks of the bombing of Germany as constituting a second front given the resources dedicated to the defense of the Reich.
my first thought when it comes to argument of "morality" relating to area bombing by the allied forces, with the goal specifically of targeting industrial capabilities would be, with the technology of the time what other options would they have to achieve said removal of ability to fight? That is phrased as both a point of conjecture to those that say it should constitute a war crime, and as a question to those more knowledgeable than myself to further understand if there was or was not a realistic alternative.
@@kimjonglongdong3158 History/tech nerd here: yep, you've identified the core practical problem. The goal of this operation (as with other strategic bombing missions) was to destroy a specific part of the German war machine, without needing to invade Europe first. Today, a modern military with that kind of goal can realistically be expected to achieve it with zero or nearly zero collateral damage - for example, by delivering a small number of precision-guided munitions (PGMs) to the specific factory (or, if you're the USA, specific machines in the factory), after everyone has gone home for the night. Bada-bing-bada-boom, no more factory, no more war materiel. If they kill a night watchman, janitor, or late worker, we expect them to apologize for it. This is possibly the single greatest effect of PGMs: they let the citizens of democratic countries feel that their hands are clean. Technology has given us the luxury of caring about collateral damage. As an unfortunate side effect, it has also given us the idea that "zero collateral damage" is a reasonable standard to which state military action can be held, rather than a childish absurdity that no government could hope to achieve under any circumstances. Regardless, this was flatly impossible in 1942. The technology did not exist. PGMs were pipe dreams and wild theories. The question of accuracy was centered on inflicting damage to the enemy, not on avoiding damage to anyone unlucky or foolish enough to venture within the splash radius of a legitimate military target. This video mentions the RAF's early-war aspirations of small, precise bomber strikes - those doctrines _failed._ The RAF made about the best effort that could reasonably have been made in 1942 to implement airstrikes as governed by 21st-century moral standards. The consequences of this attempt is that planes were lost, men died, the war machine continued to operate, and the German military continued to use its technology and materiel to inflict lots and lots of human suffering. The only non-insane and non-evil moral objection I can come up with is that the RAF should have started area bombing the German civilian population sooner - ideally, immediately following the invasion of Poland, if not at the first abrogation of the Versailles treaty provisions. As a side note: This is not to say that the technology to carry out precise bombing strikes didn't exist at all. Most dive-bombers, and some light bombers (such as the Mosquito), could be quite precise. But this accuracy was a function of pilot skill (and therefore, pilot training time). They could not be fielded in the quantities required - pilots could not be trained quickly enough. Moreover, the planes could not be built large enough to meaningfully reduce the training bottleneck - basic problems of structural engineering precluded scaling up the Mosquito to carry the payload of a Lancaster. To demand that Britain have achieved its strategic bombing objectives using Mosquitos is to demand that Britain forfeit those objectives, and possibly the war. That is, it is an unacceptable demand, and making it will only cause the target to dismiss you as a moral authority.
Exactly, David Irving started most of the myths about Allied warcrimes and what not, along with that god awful book Slaughterhouse Five, which is filled with lies and exaggerated body counts. Irving is a convicted holocaust denier and Nazi apologist, who has been proven in court to spread lies and Nazi propaganda. If he'd been an adult in the 1940s, Irving would've been helping them cover up the Holocaust. One of the worst human beings to ever live. Should've never let him out of prison.
Ive never seen someone argue that specifically the US and UK bombing raids were warcrimes without also calling Sherman "Ronsons" and Rommel a "strategic genius"
yeah, almost like studying history beyond a surface level leads inexorably to the conclusion that the strategic bombing campaigns were not only morally justified but morally obligatory
Well, I have. But not without the nuances that 1) the Allies were limited by the technology of the time when it came to precision and 2) not-stopping the Axis would've caused a lot more casualties than shortening the war with what we'd today call War Crimes, and letting millions of Chinese, Soviet, Japanese, wider East-Asians, and Jews/European die instead of German civilians would've been morally more-reprehensible :) Spartacus Olson did some War Against Humanity videos on the World War Two in real time channel, whose main host was Indy Neidell. (in those comments, you'll find others - although I ofc would say they lacked my nuanced critical thinking, hehe)
I mean the more nuanced argument is that it was foolish to think that area bombing cities would force Germany to end the war when German area bombing of Britain failed to produce that result for them. It did do the job of kneecapping the German industrial effort, both in terms of actual damage to it and the amount of effort needed to defend against the attacks.
@@derrickstorm6976 it’s a quote that Sir Arthur Harris used, I believe postwar about bombing Germany . I think it comes from something biblical or similar originally
@@derrickstorm6976 It's a Bible quote. Hosea 8:7. It basically means you reap what you sow. Sow cereal grain, you get wheat. So war, you get destruction.
My granny had seen that attack and suffered through it, when she was a little girl. She told me once about the horrors she had to see and all the friends she lost. After hearing her speak about it, I understood why there were lynchings of bomber crews that had bailed out.
@@JamesPhieffer And so how did you expect people to react when they see bombs falling on them, killing their friends, their families, turning their homes to rubble ? To shrug and go "ah well, my best friend died, but it wasn't personnal, it was all against my government, so it's fine" ? I think *you* ought to understand that people have emotions, that can take over from reason. Do also note that he didn't state that he agreed , that he didn't think they were right to lynch the crews, but that he understood what drove them to this level of irrational anger.
brooooo this video but for operation linebacker from vietnam war would be so epic those huge groups of b52s is crazy they even have audio from one of the planes on here with maps of there location in real time i love this kinda stuff haha i hope to see more nam and other wars also love that this channel touches on the global war on terror its hard for me to find good stuff on gwot...anyways thanks for the entertainment operations room your channel has become my fav have a nice day/night
Is he talking about the airfield at Gilze Rijen at the start of the video? It sounds like it, otherwise I don’t know which airfield in the Netherlands he is talking about.
so europe without jews, slavs, disabled people and other groups considered undesirable is a better alternative than migrants swarming european cities? dont get me wrong i dont like eu policies as well but your take is stupid
@stern-button8 I don't think it's irrational to describe leveling ancient towns to pave the way for the dystopia that we live in today as a failure. Atleast they were able to live in glory but it seems they sacrificed their grandchildren's lives
In Harry Turtledove's Worldwar series, this was the day Earth was attacked by The Race. Over 100 bombers returning from this attack were shot down by their fighters. Of course that pales in comparison to the casualties from the rest of the invasion.
I flew jumbo jets internationally for a living. I've flown into Cologne probably 50 times. There's a very, very old Catholic church that is very close to the train station. Thankfully it was never bombed during the war. If you ever go to Cologne...that church is a must see. Blue Sky's.
If you are referring to Cologne cathedral (the large cathedral in the centre of cologne) it was hit 14 times by bombs during the war. It was also in front of that very cathedral that on the 6th of March 1945 one of the most famous tank duels ever caught on camera was recorded. A singular Panther Medium tank parked in front knocked out a pair of Shermans advancing down the street towards the cathedral killing three crew men before a Pershing heavy tank advanced down the road and got in a duel with the Panther knocking it out with 4 of the five crew of the panther bailing out. Repairs to the Cathedral were only completed in 1956 but was not returned to it's original appearance until 2005.
The shoot-out was two blocks to the west, the burnt out Panther was dragged into the square between the main train station and the cathedral. There is a big photo display on the big steps on the cathedral side of the square.
Shock and Awe at its finest. Although wars of this scale are horrific I can’t help but feel amazed and baffled at the amount of cohesion and unity needed to pull and operation of this size off. War is terrible but with every grey cloud has a silver lining…The brotherhood and common duty to serve one’s homeland amongst every human involved really does show that in the darkest of times humanity will always find a way to stick together to accomplish great feats.
You swapped „Neumarkt“ with the Location of „Heumarkt“. Both close to each other but the Neumarkt is closer to the City Centre. The heumarkt is where you animated the First drop
As the voice over mentioned, "Much has been made of the morality of strategic bombing." I've said before that when you are facing an enemy that has no intention whatsoever of playing by the same rules as you, there is little point in even attempting to do so. The Nazis were such a threat to the world that the entire world united to do whatever it took to destroy them. That is a pretty remarkable thing, and I think people forget that too easily. The Nazis were committed to eliminating entire races of people that they didn't like, so it was hardly practical or even possible to defeat them by the letter of our laws. It's a ridiculous debate really.
Strategic bombing was planned before world war 2 by military strategists. You also had clear moral and legal injunctions against attacking civilians in The Hague Convention of 1899 and just in wider society. Why do you think a culture which wrote about the Railway Children and idealised itself as liberal democracy wouldn’t have been aware that this was evil? Why do you think allied propaganda deliberately used euphemisms like dehousing and precision bombing instead “murder women and children to cause terror”. That implies they knew they were breaking the law and morality but wilfully acted out of petty revenge and ignored these issues. After the war they lied about the context in which these actions were made.
As for morality, I think one thing to keep in mind is that back then, smart munitions like JDAMs and Laser-guided bombs didn’t exist, meaning the allies had to rely on massive bomber formations dropping lots of bombs to hopefully hit their targets, with some of those bombs inevitably hitting civilians
Just remind me again who started the war and remind me how many died in the concentration camps and how many good men and women and children were killed when London was bombed and for all those poor souls that went off to war to defend their country and never came back, and I will give you my moral judgement.
I often find those that call the allied bombing missions war crimes are the same people that refuse to condemn Germany for creating weapons intended to kill civilians (V1 and V2 ) Germany started it, the allies finished it. That's way of it.
This mission especially. The Ruhr region of Germany remains one of the largest industrial areas on the planet, and the Port of Dusseldorf on the Rhine is the biggest inland port in the world
Actually the V1 and V2 are called V for Vergeltung, i.e. Retaliation. The allies started civilian killings in Hamburg early in war and then the allies finished it in Dresden; for these events all the historians agree.
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Ground News is nothing but brainwashing...
Can you please do a documentary about The Battle Of Peleliu
17:39 "This wave is composed of 46 Avro Manchesters, 165 Handley Page Hampdens, 28 Armstrong Whitworth Whitleys, and over 300 Vickers Wellingtons." Definitely the most British thing I've ever heard by a wide margin.
4 Group contained a number of the RCAF's bomber squadrons at the time, although by the end of the year all of these would be moved to the new RCAF 6 Group.
I thought it would be mostly b17s. Didn't realize that Britain could muster that many before American fighters and bombers arrived in the theater 😳
@@russellhammond371 when you’re in a Giving the Most Adorable Names to Death Machines competition but your opponent is Britain: 💀
what is British about it?
@@dakotafaillers8588 You'd be surprised, by the end of World War Two the USAAF 8th airforce in Europe had about 17,000 aircraft of all kind, a large chunk of which would be fighters, Britain produced about 17,000 heavy (4 engined bombers) bomber with total bomber force being just over 35,000 aircraft, combine this with fighter command and the RAF presence in Europe was absolutely massive, of course not all 35,000 aircraft were active at once but the point still stands, a lot of the glory of the bombers is focussed on the 8th even though at any point of time they were considerably smaller than RAF forces in Europe.
I visited the Cologne cathedral in 1978. I don’t know if you still can but at the time I could climb the stairs all the way to the top of the spire. It’s amazing that the cathedral, which took 200 years to build, was missed by All the bombing as every building surrounding it was devastated.
slight correction, the cathedral took over 600 years to build. started in 1248 and finished in 1880.
Allies tend to avoid destroying religious buildings, I visited a lot of French cities that were heavily bombed during WWII and usually churches were spared
@@BelaM27X11 wow…thank you. Incredible!
@@Cailloumax this was just luck….Allied bombing was actually very inaccurate
@@Cailloumax When area bombing an entire city, it's pretty much impossible to avoid single targets. They were largely lucky. French cities tended to not be bombed nearly as heavily since they were occupied allied cities rather than German or other Axis nation cities.
I cant even imagine how terrifying that would be from the ground. The noise.
My grandma lived 4km outside of cologne during the war. I've never heard her speak a single about this event. In a bad way
In a documentary I saw (can't recall the name now), there was a witness to it all, a young German boy.
Apparently the Allies flew leaflets the day before telling them the bombs where coming the next night.
The boy's family didn't believe it, they shrugged it off.
The boy woke up to the bombing. Everything was on fire. Their building was burning up.
The old brother told the boy (the younger of the two) to stay put and he'd be back. The brother left, pushed through the burning hallway et al.
The brother never returned and was never found. But somehow the young boy survived. He was the only one out of his family that did (as I recall the details of it).
The town in England my dad grew up in was in an area the bombers would form up. He always said how loud it was, add to that the bombs and flak guns returning fire it must have been terrifying for everyone on the ground.
My grandma was in cologne that night. They fled to the airshelter and the next morning half of the appartment block was gone. My great grandfather gave all the kids cigarettes to calm them. Later she stumbled while walking over what she initially believed to be a charred tree stump. It was a burned body .
@@AK-hi7mg In any of these wars, the citizens have the most casualties..
My dad flew on this raid. He was a navigator on Wellington No. W476, piloted by F/S Walters. His log book entry reads "30-5, 22:50, Operations - Cologne - incendiaries - clear - moonlight - target identified". It is a very clinical description of such a devastating mission.
They were all lied to. Fought the Germans so we could be replaced by foreigners in our own lands.
We just hear more details about this! Does he have a biography?
My grandfather was in Cologne as a firefighter.
Thanks for your dad's service.
My butthole farted
Never change the background music, its a signature
Unless they do older battles, like voices of histories pasts videos
My Polish grandfather was on this raid piloting a Wellington. Thanks for the video!
Wspaniale!
The indefatigable Poles were a huge asset to the Allies even after their country collapsed. I have always admired the Polish spirit to remember their nation and it's heritage throughout history during multiple century long occupations be foreign powers.
sorry to hear that
@@Peipzzdo you support the N*zis? Every one of your comments on this channel is rather suggestive of that
@@Peipzzwhat?
The sheer scale of the World Wars never ceases to horrify me. God willing our leaders have the sense to avoid causing such a conflict again.
Seems like at the moment humanity isnt smart enough to avoid this rehappening.
They don’t, they are all soulless puppets.
I wouldn't count on it. About 15 years ago I thought that the Internet would be a great help in stopping a future world war because how easy it is for citizens of modernised countries to make connections and friendships that simply were not possible before. Nowadays I am not so sure, and what could have been our greatest asset could be our worst enemy because of the way state actors can manipulate huge populations via troll/bot farms and the rapid dissemination of misinformation. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
Right wing nationalism is rising everywhere. People are starting to forget history and doomed to repeat it.
It’s as if it’s a fucking world war you dumbass. No shit there’s a fuck Ton of people the whole world was involved dipshit
As a person living in Cologne now they're still finding bombs from these bomber runs on a weekly basis on housing projects, etc. Generally means whole districts are evacuated until the bomb can be diffused or otherwise disposed off
You mean just like places of london still are...?
Dont give what you cant take.
@@brentonherbert7775 Yeah and the video is about the Cologne bombing campaign, get a life dude. You think anyone there alive now had anything to do with any of this shit? Meanwhile you still seem to have it out for them for no reason
@@brentonherbert7775 its just an anecdote about the subject of the video dude, calm down.
@@brentonherbert7775 and you brits still owe us money from the last 2 wars, SO PAY UP!!!
@@maxhill7065 The cope is real with this one "Is JuSt A ViDeO" Tell you what. Thats now my reply to the very first thing you said :) so go shove it lmao.
So they bought a bomber called the Havok, named it the Boston, built a ground attack intruder variant, and called _that_ the Havoc.
The RAF, everybody.
Point being what?
Military’s all over steal designs from each other all the time!!!
still better than having 20 or more things labeled "M1"
@@headshothunt3r414don't even get me started on aircraft names
"This is the B-17!"
"Aw cool, so the next bomber will be the B-18?"
"Well no, the B-18 already exists and was actually put into service before the B-17"
"So then the next will be the B-19?"
"Well ya see, that's a prototype.....that doesn't work and is essentially a fever dream."
"B-20?"
"Nope, we call it the A-20"
"21?!?!"
" 'nother prototype, actually predates the 20....and something else but the timeline says it won't be finished until the 2020s"
"22!!!!??"
"B-18 with new engines..."
My great-grandfather participated in this raid (Navigating a wellington for the RNZAF 75th squadron). His logbook states: WAR OPERATIONS COLOGNE 1330 aircraft on target. City burning from end to end. Moderate flak. Attacked by junkers 88 on return, rear gunner beat him off.
The rear gunner beat him off .
It's incredible when you think of how they had to manage and coordinate over 1000 Bombers for this raid, getting all the air crews and maintenance personnel assembled, the parts and munitions they had to bring together to every single aircraft, the planning that had to be done before they took off and the routes taken, every plan and backup plan and contingency that had to be created and executed, and so on.
My great aunt was a little child, when the bombing run/firestorm of Hamburg happened and she lived in a small town 70 km north of Hamburg. She told me, that she stood on a field with her family in the middle of this night and the sky in the south looked like dawn. As a german born in 85' i don't take responsibility for what my grandfathers and great grandfathers did in WWII, but it is my responsibility and civic duty to make sure, this never happens again.
Great comment and great commitment mate
My grandmother lived about 30 km away from Hamburg and told me how she and her little sister sat on the wall of their farm, watching the city burn in the distance. Hearing her talk about „Christmas trees in the sky“, probably flares or incendiaries I guess, was absolut chilling. Nothing a 10 year old should ever have to witness.
I was born in ‘99 and can only agree with your statement
@@Bennnon Or maybe tracer rounds from the AA guns.
Just like im sure the germans stopped it from happening again after WW1...
Just like the Japanese stopped it from happening...
Just like the iranians stopped it from happening...
Just like the russians stopped it from happening...
Dont make promises you cant keep.
Dont feel bad for people who the majority supported it.
Last i checked there werent any mass letters of protest to the london blitz.
The video mentioned the two bombers that marked the target by dropping incendiary ammunition. Afaik those were called "Christmas trees" because they were clusters of small (phosphorous?) bombs that came down burning.
My mother was born in Berlin in 1940. She and my grandparents were bombed by the RAF in 1944 and had to flee the city. She still remembers the night in the air raid shelter. And she still doesn't like sirens. My other grandpa was in the German army, he is buried on Crimea. I share the responsibility: never again!
This is both incredibly impressive and incredibly sad.
Sums up WW2 pretty well
Well consider the alternative, what were they supposed to do? Just let Germany take her former territory in Poland back? Are you crazy.
@@1toneboyshut up, nazi
Fight a conventional war with your massive advantage in weapons and material? As opposed to murdering a few hundred thousand civilians that aren’t to become combatants for another 10 years?
@@or6397 congrats on making the funniest comment in this thread 😂
Only when I saw Leslie Manser's picture did I recognise him from the painting hanging in my former school's dining hall! A fellow former pupil. Good to hear his story told again here.
I live near Cologne and Bonn, and it is weird to see how "ugly" cologne is compared to Bonn. Reason being that Bonn's commander surrendered very quicky, avoiding massive Bombardement, keeping most of the beautiful parts of the city intact. Cologne on the other hand is a random mixture of post war concrete and very modern glass buildings.
There are multiple undetonated Bombs every year in cologne, while I don't even know if I've heard of one in Bonn yet.
The two cities are less than 20km apart. 85 years later you can still clearly tell which city was annihilated, and which parts got spared.
The sheer scale of Germany’s response to the bombing campaign demonstrates its necessity.
The Luftwaffe was immobilised and eventually obliterated because of it. Flak ammunition production took up huge reserves of resources that Germany could not afford. And the destruction of Germany’s city centres forced the dispersion of industry, which when followed up with The Transport Plan and the Oil Offensive, basically crippled the Wehrmacht’s lines of supply.
However I think the words of Sir Arthur Wellesley say it best: “The only thing worse than a battle lost, is a battle won”
Fancy seeing you here.
the RAF bomber command accomplished nothing that changed the outcome of the war.
@SoloRenegade That's incorrect. The bombing campaign forced the withdrawal of thousands of 88 mm which were desperately needed on the Eastern Front. It also kept the bulk of the Luftwaffe within Germany, the redirection of resources to build aircraft instead of tanks as well as the destruction of infrastructure that crippled already weak logistics. Also, one of the strategic objectives was to shoot the Luftwaffe out of the sky prior to the D Day landings. It had a massive impact on the outcome of the war.
@@ExpatChef71arguably the allies used just as many resources building bombs and bombers, which instead could have been used to build strike fighters or just fighters, to then mass attack airfields and destroy planes on the ground
@@catfunt5583 The thing is that the allies were nowhere near as starved for resources and production output since the U.S fully entered the war, and with it, basically the full resources of the Americas.
“It says here in this history book that luckily, the good guys have won every single time. What are the odds?” - Norm MacDonald
Just rewatched "Snatch" last night, and now understand why one of the boxers was named "Bomber" Harris.
Protection from what Tommy? Zee Germans?
Crazy to think that at that range even the "smaller" twin engine Wellington still carried the same payload as a B-17 but only a third of what the Halifax and Lancaster carried, they were a game changer for Bomber Command.
At 30:16 even the Lancaster seems surprised of the size of the 'Cookie' it is being fed!
And that still wasn't the biggest thing it would eventually carry. The Tall Boys were truly massive!
@@StardewStartup Grand Slams were the biggest bombs carried and weighed 22000 lb.
I think that the resources Germany had to put towards air defence was the most important effect from the bombing campaign. Thousands of guns and aircraft otherwise used to fight the USSR.
Defeating stalin no bad thing allies alliance with that butcher a taboo subject today.
Certainly German home defences was sacrificed.
I appreciate the moral/ethics section at the end. It’s an important part of the history of the strategic bombing campaign
I agree, I was going to comment on it myself. This debate will never truly be resolved but it's right that it occurs. I always find myself conflicted in what to think. Is strategic bombing in itself a war winner? Probably not. Does it speed the result, most likely. From a lives lost perspective I don't think this can ever be fully analysed. All the same. Good to see a fair and balanced video.
I think he sanitises the consequences and is giving too much respect for the justifications given. He doesn’t mention dehousing as the policy instead framing this as purely aimed at clear industrial targets, he doesn’t really mention the desire to break enemy morale by terror and Harris later own justifications that “well the blockade in World War 1 killed far more civilians from starvation” or “I value the life of one British Grenadier over 5 million civilians”. I just cannot understand the length people go to in defending this.
For me it was a warcrime.
I don't. Moralizing about Allied strategic bombing is gay and low-IQ.
Nothing wrong with boming nazis.@@tusk70
Quick add: What you are showing is not "Neumarkt" (Newmarket) but "Heumarkt" (Haymarket). Neumarkt is also seen on the map, a few blocks (950 m) to the west.
Sticht einem als Kölner sofort ins Auge
Janz jenau
I was actually following the video on Google maps...
I was like:
"wait, why are they bombing an oval park? What did the trees do?"😂
My long lost uncle Ted was a tailgunner in a Halifax of No 10 Squadron although he was MIA on a raid on Essen.
You know you're the real deal when your military nickname is literally just your job title
People focus on the nukes, but the firebombings were much worse.
And had much greater effect
handwringers always insecure about the USA
Some morons will even claim the nukes were unnecessary and that Japan was "ready to surrender" but that the mean and evil US just wouldn't let them because they wanted to test their new toy. Those same dumbasses will ignore the fact that the Japanese military attempted a coup against the emperor AFTER both nukes had been dropped to prevent him from surrendering and to keep the war going. If anything, they got off light with only two nukes, the victims of the Japanese brutal conquests and genocides will tell you as much. To quote a former "comfort woman" (sex slave) I heard from years ago, "I'll never understand why the Americans stopped at just two." A sentiment that I have been told is not uncommon among the victims of the Japanese and their descendants. Read into The Rape of Nanking, or watch interviews with survivors, like one man who had to watch the Japanese bayonet his mother and baby sibling for sport. Maybe then some of you apologist dipshits will understand.
The fact that a NAZI (John Rabe, "The Good Nazi") is regarded as hero in China for evacuating hundreds of thousands of people away from the Japanese in Nanking should be more than fucking telling at how monstrous and brutal they were. To quote him: "I am totally puzzled by the conduct of the Japanese in this matter. On the one hand, they want to be recognized and treated as a great power on a par with European powers, on the other, they are currently displaying a crudity, brutality, and bestiality that bears no comparison."
Had the invasion of mainland Japan gone through, the deaths would have been in the millions and that isn't even considering the famine that was starting due to the blockade that would have killed likely millions on its own. So, yes, the nukes were the moral choice.
But if you go the nuclear museums in Hiroshima, they would have you believe that Japan was a poor, innocent victim of US aggression, that they didn't deserve to be attacked and did nothing wrong, complete with young children who wait outside the museum for Anglo-looking people so they can harass them about "being proud of what they did" to their innocent Japan. The same country and people that refuse to acknowledge their atrocities, celebrates war criminals at shrines dedicated to them, and even justifies or celebrates the war crimes (the same ones they claim never happened, paradoxically. Rest in piss, Shinzo Abe). They have also pressured and forced other countries to tear down monuments/memorials to victims of their atrocities. And their school history books just erase more and more of their atrocities every time they get issued new ones. A pathetic people and a pathetic culture with no real sense of responsibility or accountability if it means their precious "Face" will be damaged. Cover-up after cover-up, denial after denial. They'll give cheap lip service on the international stage but do the opposite at home. It is thoroughly disgusting.
The Germans at least enforce the teaching of their atrocities in schools and make denying them a crime, which they actually enforce and prosecute for. German accountability might not be perfect, but at least its fucking measurable and notable.
I apologize for rambling, this topic just pisses me off so fucking much. Rather, the dumbfuck apologists and revisionists do.
To this day there are still bombs buried deep and being found
Far less deaths tho apparently
If only the Bomber boys about the boys of bomber command was made into a Tv drama miniseries just like the Masters of the air.
no thanks. there are far more important and interesting stories taht need to be told
A Band of Brothers style take on the naval battles for the Philippines (climax being the Battle fo Samar) would be FAR more appropriate.
@@SoloRenegade you ARE a complete idiot, aren't you.
I'm surprised your skull doesn't simply implode due to the vacuum betwixt your ears.
Have you read Len Deightons book Bomber? It details a single fictional raid with perspectives from both sides. I think it would make a great mini series but would never be made as not all the germans are portrayed as heartless nazis
@@SoloRenegade Er, and what do they have to do with Commonwealth airmen?
RAF Bomber Command suffered 45% casualties and their smallest plane (Hampden) carried the same bomb load as a B-17, why shouldn't their crews' hugely significant contribution to the war be told?
@@lastguy8613 it could get made. Everyone knows not all Germans were murderous 💩heads. Some were actually decent human beings. And yeah, bombs don't discriminate regarding such matters, unfortunately.
Spent many years in Germany and visited the cathedral often. You can still walk the tons of stairs to the top. The front left took bomb damage. You can see it. The Nazis refused to release the materials needed to repair it. A Major in the army refused the order and it was repaired. HQ had the major arrested and charged with treason. His firing squad was avoided by the backlash of cologne citizens. Always loved the story and visiting the McDonald's next door. You can order beer in German McDonald's!
I grew up there. They still find unexploded bombs there on a regular basis.
That photo of Churchill at 7:11 is one of the most British photos ever.
What a great job, Operations Room! Your videos are getting better every time. The attack on Cologne was horrific, a terrible example of how awful war is for everyone.
This Channel is awesome. Coming from Canada with love. I got recalled this week, more boots needed at home base. As more boots on the ground leave for Europe. I’m heading for Oakville, ON CAN tomorrow. 32nd Canadian Brigade Group, 4th Canadian Division. Campbell Company. I’m not going overseas for this one, but help prepare those that are. 🇨🇦
I was born in cologne and live here. Sadly, the bombings destroyed so much of the beautiful city (which has history dating back to B.C.). You can see this in the city because there are a lot of ugly buildings that were quickly built after the war ended.
Buddy , what happen in Cologne is German fault ! , I was born in Poznan 55% of city was destroyed because of Germany in ww2 ! , Germans are not offers of ww2 , Germans are villains , you guys have started the war , and you lost the war .
I visited Cologne and understand what you mean. My home city of Plymouth was heavily bombed by the Luftwaffe. Only London received more Kg of bombs.
It was a beautiful medieval city with many historic buildings. It was also rebuilt using brutalist concrete "architecture" and will never be the admired place it once was. War is tragedy for people and places.
You can look just about anywhere in all aspects of life; wherever you may gaze you will still find the shadows of this war that only ended 79 years ago.
Die Nazis haben ihren Teil dazu beigetragen. Für die Ost West Achse vom Aachener Weiher über die Deutzer Brücke bis Opladener wurden in den 30er schon hunderte Häuser platt gemacht. Und ein großteil der "historischen" Gebäude um den Heumarkt sind Rekonstruktionen aus dem selben Zeitraum
Coventry was beautiful, too, before the Luftwaffe tried to destroy it.
I am going to have to dig out my uncle's journal and check the date to see what he experienced this day. He kept a journal of everything from planes lost to men and parachutes. There's a copy in the Library of Congress but I have the original and anytime I come across any type of bombing missions I check it out. He rotated out between the tail gunner and ball turret being the little man in the group. 27 missions over the English Channel.
This was the result of a concept of total war, the idea that all aspects of a country’s war making potential was a legitimate target, the same concept that brings us to MAD, mutually assured destruction.
Anyone who doesn't consider military industrial centers as legitimate targets are idiots who will damn their soldiers to capture, torture and death. We know the effects of this idiocy as it happened in Vietnam. A great many of the 58 thousand were victims of this insane stupidity.
Indeed. When every part of a country is part of its war effort, the distinction between combatant and non-combatant starts to get really blurry. The guy shooting at you certainly is one, but then what about the munitions factory supplying him bullets? And once we've made that step, what about the people working in that factory? Each one of them is a part of the enemy war machine, why should any of them be exempt?
It's easy to sit here and judge in the 21st century, but none of us have experience such a war. We have no place passing judgement.
@@DarkFenix2k5 Don't forget the "innocent civilians" who vote warmongers into power and allow them to remain, and pay taxes to support the war. Only the children are true victims.
Then how do you consider Germany as the bad guys when everyone did the same thing to each other?
@@DarkFenix2k5the only innocent people were the kids. Assisting the war effort made you a legitimate target exactly the same if you use civilian infrastructure for military purposes
thank you all for another splendid historically accurate, un-biased, war time documentary.
Great video.
Thank You!
I love the format of this channel.
Simply awesome work.
It gives me hope that after such a brutal war we became great allies. You never know what our children and grandchildren are capable of mending.
You must not know very much
"They shouldn't have started it." - My grandad.
Is he still alive?
based grandpa
Britain declared war on Germany. Seems your grandpa has dementia
Yeah because the civilians killed in those air raids were the ones who "started it"
I wonder how this could apply to the Gaza conflict
I would like to urge alll the people commenting along the lines of "thank god this doesn't happen today" to watch 20 Days In Mariupol. Between 100 to 300 times the death toll of the Cologne attack was inflicted upon Mariupol's inhabitants over a few months in 2022. Never again, right?
How many civilians in the Donass have been killed by the Ukrianians?
@@basemanawakens60890
@@basemanawakens6089
Total conflict-related civilian casualties in 2014-2021 by (UNITED NATIONS HUMAN RIGHTS MONITORING MISSION IN UKRAINE):
2014: 2084
2015: 955
2016: 112
2017: 117
2018: 58
2019: 27
2020: 26
2021: 25
Yeah, but that's easy to ignore.
@basemanawakens6089
You love to comment on war crimes committed by the Ukrainians against “the civilians of Donbass”.
The war in Donbass is one of the most documented wars in history, if the Ukrainians were so terrible and cruel, why didn’t you find footage of this and send it to the UN Human Rights Commission? Let me guess, Sweetheart, you “forgot”?
warthunder ground rb after 2 minutes:
15:08 So if the operation hadn't been postponed multiple times, it might not have taken place during a full moon, and the diversionary fires might have worked?
Maybe. It would still have been within a few days of a full moon.
Generally the idea was to have both a clear night and a large moon. So there was some give in the recipe for the moon phases to wait for the weather to match.
Having mentioned the weather , there is some really interesting history on how weather, meteorology, and meteorologists (!) influenced WWII. With the Germans even setting up weather stations in Canada and mutual attacks on weather stations in the Arctic. Have a look here for an example: ruclips.net/video/Sii_9YMYSHg/видео.htmlsi=iH2XbdbBO2364T_f
Edited to add this one: ruclips.net/video/_nRjZSTKPEE/видео.htmlsi=5jTVdpLtKRcnQO9L
Someone has probably already said this but Manser was just 20 years old. Practically a teenager.
I remember my great great aunt who was a young girl living in cologne during the war telling me about several air raid alarms. She used to take her parrot in her shirt into the bunker. One day she said there was another alarm, her neighbours got used to it and ignored it staying at home. My great great aunt came out the bunker to find their house wiped out.
11:39 I'm nitpicking, but that map is incorrect for 1942. The Dutch Flevo-Polders seen on the map did not come about until well after the war (1950's-1960's). It's not really that relevant for the video. But just thought I'd mention it.
Zeeland and the port of Rotterdam are also drawn as modern day
Well spotted, I didn’t even notice that.
Maasvlakte 2 jumped 72 years back in time
It just comes to show that WW2 was part of the bigger Temporal Wars.
If you look at the context of morality, war in it of itself could be considered immoral because you're forcibly taking what is rightfully the possession of others by either invading or simply attacking. the action of needing to hurt or kill someone just to gain something is already barbaric and the fact that a war can be started by a few people while others who had nothing to do with the decision to go to war are the ones who will suffer for it is the saddest part. A Russian old woman living in Ukraine sums this up perfectly. "People at the top can pick a fight they want but the people at the bottom will be the ones to suffer from it".
Russua as a whole picked the fight, they could stop the war if they want to
@@roryr8 Putin and his government are the ones who started the war. The people of Russia just ended up seeking for revenge after their loved ones who were sent to fight the war never made it back. Putin was the one who pushed to wheel of suffering and hatred, everyone who got caught in it just ended up going with the flow eventually making an endless cycle of resentment and revenge.
My great grandfather died in this bombing. My grandma told me afterwards she would walk around the city turning over every dead body she found but she would never find him.
The place you bombed in your video is the Heumarkt, the Neumarkt is the oval 5 blocks west
ruclips.net/user/shortsBmc9NFfhx74?si=Ro-bI4mfpVmMugUx
One aspect the debate about area bombing constantly fails to acknowledge is that the technology for precision bombing literally didn't exist at the time. Anything claimed to be "precision bombing" was still effectually area bombing.
My grandmother is polish, and was raised and lived in Poland. When the Nazi's invaded, there was panic to get out. My Great Godfather who is Russian grabbed the family and got on a boat, escaping the invasion, all the way to America, where my mom was eventually born etc etc.
The way I found this out is astounding - before then I only knew my grandmother escaped Poland but no details. In the attic of my mom's old childhood home there was a very old box dated back to the 1900s that we were afraid to open out of suspicion it was possibly an explosive funny enough.
But opening it I saw photos of my Great Godfather, whose name is Joseph (may he rest in peace) and all kinds of papers with his handwriting detailing the events of the Nazi attack on Poland.
Crazy to think how the invasion really changed my entire existence and where I was born, along with my mother.
A game designer I know did a game on this subject, from the planning, to the targeting, to the resolution, of Bomber Command missions. He was of the opinion that while it was a war crime, it was also inevitable.
and the other way the raid on coventry Codenamed 'Moonlight Sonata', the raid lasted for 11 hours and involved nearly 500 Luftwaffe bombers
I count 1,063 bomber dots. Wtf.
"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them" - it's crazy how this quote can be used to describe the current day events without any change what-so-ever.
Indeed, sounds all to familiar dosn't it... Now where have I heard this from..... Hmmm. 😂
The difference was the amount of bombing though.
After the Germans defeated (and conquered) France, Paris the capitol city was still largely intact. And so was Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Poland (Warsaw Infrastructure was still 95% intact).
All western countries that Germany conquered were still mostly intact without much strucutal damage.
But after the Allies landed on Normandy in 1944, many major french cities (Caen, Toulun) were completely obliterated by Britsh and American bombers
Even the "Friends" of the Allies suffered more casualties form Allied bombings than from the german bombers
It is estimated that around 3~4 million german civilians and a further 3 million Japanese civilians (incl. Women and children) were killed by American and British bombers, which combined is literally the same as the 6 million jews killed by the Nazis
As well as thousands of French civilians were also killed by Allied bombers, since the french cities Caen and Toulon still had thousands of residents living there when the cities were bombed by the Allies without any warnings
The argument that the bombings of entire cities "saved lifes" (well only the lifes of military personnel anyway) by killing the civilians of the enemy, in the hope to force the enemy to surrender,
is just as barbaric and satanic as what the Nazis did on the same Level.
And now many people living in America and Britain even regret they fought against Germany in WW2, seeing what the consequences mean in todays world now that the Jews completely dominate politics and world affairs, many Americans today realize they fought the wrong enemy in WW2
Great Britian declared war on Germany in both ww1 and ww2.
17:17 oh wow I thought it was over!
The scale of WW2 was insane.
Hey operations room I've been waiting for a long time for a video about the battle of the Santa Cruz Islands could you plan to make one? I've looked on other similar channels but no one does it like you❤
thank you so much for your hard work and truth reporting, and generosity
The joke was RAF was doing an area bombing on precision target, while USAAF was doing a precision bombing on an area target.
Great overview. Fantastic documentary. You guys do wonderful work.
Great video, very well narrated. Thank you. Hope you don't mind this quibble at 15:35 the 2nd, 3rd etc waves of aircraft are not 'preceding waves', they are 'succeeding' or 'following'. The first wave precedes the rest.
Really enjoyed the story with animations and narration.
That picture, @27:30 of the cathedral towers surrounded by ruins says it all. Its an artifact from the raid I've never seen before. Incredible.
On the question of the morality of area bombing, that 'argument' began with (but not isolated to) David Irving, but even he relates RAF policy to the precedent set in Warsaw and Rotterdam by the Luftwaffe. Moreover when Albert Speer was interviewed post war (World at War Episode 12, Whirlwind) he speaks of the bombing of Germany as constituting a second front given the resources dedicated to the defense of the Reich.
my first thought when it comes to argument of "morality" relating to area bombing by the allied forces, with the goal specifically of targeting industrial capabilities would be, with the technology of the time what other options would they have to achieve said removal of ability to fight? That is phrased as both a point of conjecture to those that say it should constitute a war crime, and as a question to those more knowledgeable than myself to further understand if there was or was not a realistic alternative.
@@kimjonglongdong3158 History/tech nerd here: yep, you've identified the core practical problem. The goal of this operation (as with other strategic bombing missions) was to destroy a specific part of the German war machine, without needing to invade Europe first. Today, a modern military with that kind of goal can realistically be expected to achieve it with zero or nearly zero collateral damage - for example, by delivering a small number of precision-guided munitions (PGMs) to the specific factory (or, if you're the USA, specific machines in the factory), after everyone has gone home for the night. Bada-bing-bada-boom, no more factory, no more war materiel. If they kill a night watchman, janitor, or late worker, we expect them to apologize for it. This is possibly the single greatest effect of PGMs: they let the citizens of democratic countries feel that their hands are clean. Technology has given us the luxury of caring about collateral damage. As an unfortunate side effect, it has also given us the idea that "zero collateral damage" is a reasonable standard to which state military action can be held, rather than a childish absurdity that no government could hope to achieve under any circumstances.
Regardless, this was flatly impossible in 1942. The technology did not exist. PGMs were pipe dreams and wild theories. The question of accuracy was centered on inflicting damage to the enemy, not on avoiding damage to anyone unlucky or foolish enough to venture within the splash radius of a legitimate military target. This video mentions the RAF's early-war aspirations of small, precise bomber strikes - those doctrines _failed._ The RAF made about the best effort that could reasonably have been made in 1942 to implement airstrikes as governed by 21st-century moral standards. The consequences of this attempt is that planes were lost, men died, the war machine continued to operate, and the German military continued to use its technology and materiel to inflict lots and lots of human suffering. The only non-insane and non-evil moral objection I can come up with is that the RAF should have started area bombing the German civilian population sooner - ideally, immediately following the invasion of Poland, if not at the first abrogation of the Versailles treaty provisions.
As a side note: This is not to say that the technology to carry out precise bombing strikes didn't exist at all. Most dive-bombers, and some light bombers (such as the Mosquito), could be quite precise. But this accuracy was a function of pilot skill (and therefore, pilot training time). They could not be fielded in the quantities required - pilots could not be trained quickly enough. Moreover, the planes could not be built large enough to meaningfully reduce the training bottleneck - basic problems of structural engineering precluded scaling up the Mosquito to carry the payload of a Lancaster. To demand that Britain have achieved its strategic bombing objectives using Mosquitos is to demand that Britain forfeit those objectives, and possibly the war. That is, it is an unacceptable demand, and making it will only cause the target to dismiss you as a moral authority.
Exactly, David Irving started most of the myths about Allied warcrimes and what not, along with that god awful book Slaughterhouse Five, which is filled with lies and exaggerated body counts. Irving is a convicted holocaust denier and Nazi apologist, who has been proven in court to spread lies and Nazi propaganda. If he'd been an adult in the 1940s, Irving would've been helping them cover up the Holocaust. One of the worst human beings to ever live. Should've never let him out of prison.
My great grandma told me the devastating firebombing of Molde it's very sad
Ive never seen someone argue that specifically the US and UK bombing raids were warcrimes without also calling Sherman "Ronsons" and Rommel a "strategic genius"
yeah, almost like studying history beyond a surface level leads inexorably to the conclusion that the strategic bombing campaigns were not only morally justified but morally obligatory
@@dylandarnell3657"You killed our children, so we must kill yours?"
@@dylandarnell3657 lol
Well, I have.
But not without the nuances that 1) the Allies were limited by the technology of the time when it came to precision and 2) not-stopping the Axis would've caused a lot more casualties than shortening the war with what we'd today call War Crimes, and letting millions of Chinese, Soviet, Japanese, wider East-Asians, and Jews/European die instead of German civilians would've been morally more-reprehensible :)
Spartacus Olson did some War Against Humanity videos on the World War Two in real time channel, whose main host was Indy Neidell.
(in those comments, you'll find others - although I ofc would say they lacked my nuanced critical thinking, hehe)
I mean the more nuanced argument is that it was foolish to think that area bombing cities would force Germany to end the war when German area bombing of Britain failed to produce that result for them. It did do the job of kneecapping the German industrial effort, both in terms of actual damage to it and the amount of effort needed to defend against the attacks.
This was the first time I’ve not skipped an ad at the start of the video! 😂 very interesting!!
Good to see you again operations room!
You sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.
You’re a disgusting swine of a human if you think that.
That makes no sense
@@derrickstorm6976Makes perfect sense
@@derrickstorm6976 it’s a quote that Sir Arthur Harris used, I believe postwar about bombing Germany . I think it comes from something biblical or similar originally
@@derrickstorm6976 It's a Bible quote. Hosea 8:7. It basically means you reap what you sow. Sow cereal grain, you get wheat. So war, you get destruction.
14:21 that‘s the ‘Heumarkt‘ (hay market). The ‘Neumarkt‘ is the oval place to the left, directly in the center
My granny had seen that attack and suffered through it, when she was a little girl.
She told me once about the horrors she had to see and all the friends she lost.
After hearing her speak about it, I understood why there were lynchings of bomber crews that had bailed out.
Never heard of a German flyer being killed by locals.
Do you understand why the raid took place in the first place? Because if you don't, I don't think you understand as much as you might think.
@@JamesPhieffer And so how did you expect people to react when they see bombs falling on them, killing their friends, their families, turning their homes to rubble ? To shrug and go "ah well, my best friend died, but it wasn't personnal, it was all against my government, so it's fine" ?
I think *you* ought to understand that people have emotions, that can take over from reason. Do also note that he didn't state that he agreed , that he didn't think they were right to lynch the crews, but that he understood what drove them to this level of irrational anger.
@@JamesPhieffer disgusting redneck
@@JamesPhieffer "There are only murderers in this room!" Paul Newman in Road to Perdition.
Lots of detail! An excellent video!
"And tomorrow we attack perfume, right?"
"You're an idiot."
brooooo this video but for operation linebacker from vietnam war would be so epic those huge groups of b52s is crazy they even have audio from one of the planes on here with maps of there location in real time i love this kinda stuff haha i hope to see more nam and other wars also love that this channel touches on the global war on terror its hard for me to find good stuff on gwot...anyways thanks for the entertainment operations room your channel has become my fav have a nice day/night
27:28 I’ve seen this somewhere before….
Warthunder ptsd strikes again
As always great stuff, you earned a patreon.
1:41 “when they hear the low growl of engines overhead”
The ground crews:👁️👄👁️ “Was ist das?”
Oh no way! I didn’t know Lydia had a podcast!! She’s awesome
Is he talking about the airfield at Gilze Rijen at the start of the video? It sounds like it, otherwise I don’t know which airfield in the Netherlands he is talking about.
Yes, look at the map when it zooms out, its a modern map of tilburg, which is next to gilze rijen
On the 6th March Cologne Cathedral was in the background of footage when a Pershing took out a Panther waiting in Ambush
I wonder if they would've got in those planes if they could've seen Berlin, Paris, and London today
so europe without jews, slavs, disabled people and other groups considered undesirable is a better alternative than migrants swarming european cities? dont get me wrong i dont like eu policies as well but your take is stupid
@@Miloooooo0 shut up
If they wouldn't have the greatest generation would be known as the greatest failures.
@stern-button8 I don't think it's irrational to describe leveling ancient towns to pave the way for the dystopia that we live in today as a failure. Atleast they were able to live in glory but it seems they sacrificed their grandchildren's lives
Excellent content as always.
As another war history RUclipsr says, “It’s not a war crime the first time.”
In Harry Turtledove's Worldwar series, this was the day Earth was attacked by The Race. Over 100 bombers returning from this attack were shot down by their fighters. Of course that pales in comparison to the casualties from the rest of the invasion.
classic "alien space bats" move
Fantastic series!
What you called "Neumarkt" ist actually the "Heumarkt". The Neumarkt ist slightly a mile to the west. It is marked by the street- circle on the map
I flew jumbo jets internationally for a living. I've flown into Cologne probably 50 times. There's a very, very old Catholic church that is very close to the train station. Thankfully it was never bombed during the war. If you ever go to Cologne...that church is a must see. Blue Sky's.
If you are referring to Cologne cathedral (the large cathedral in the centre of cologne) it was hit 14 times by bombs during the war. It was also in front of that very cathedral that on the 6th of March 1945 one of the most famous tank duels ever caught on camera was recorded. A singular Panther Medium tank parked in front knocked out a pair of Shermans advancing down the street towards the cathedral killing three crew men before a Pershing heavy tank advanced down the road and got in a duel with the Panther knocking it out with 4 of the five crew of the panther bailing out. Repairs to the Cathedral were only completed in 1956 but was not returned to it's original appearance until 2005.
The shoot-out was two blocks to the west, the burnt out Panther was dragged into the square between the main train station and the cathedral. There is a big photo display on the big steps on the cathedral side of the square.
@@tootyfruity70 That tank duel is awesome
Fascinating, incredible history!
War is a terrible thing. But the germans did reap the whirlwind.
Let us hope we never see another world war again
small reminder that the allies declared war
@@Peipzzthat tends to happen when you have despotic regimes running around tearing the hell out of the whole world.
@@Peipzz after the Axis provoked it
@@Peipzz After the nazis invaded Poland under a false pretense.
@@Peipzz Found the sympathizer who pretends Poland wasn't part of the Allies
Shock and Awe at its finest. Although wars of this scale are horrific I can’t help but feel amazed and baffled at the amount of cohesion and unity needed to pull and operation of this size off.
War is terrible but with every grey cloud has a silver lining…The brotherhood and common duty to serve one’s homeland amongst every human involved really does show that in the darkest of times humanity will always find a way to stick together to accomplish great feats.
It is war, it is meant to be horrible or men would do it more often.
Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
You swapped „Neumarkt“ with the Location of „Heumarkt“. Both close to each other but the Neumarkt is closer to the City Centre. The heumarkt is where you animated the First drop
Theres a reason its called total war.
War is total, violent, and absolute.
As the voice over mentioned, "Much has been made of the morality of strategic bombing." I've said before that when you are facing an enemy that has no intention whatsoever of playing by the same rules as you, there is little point in even attempting to do so. The Nazis were such a threat to the world that the entire world united to do whatever it took to destroy them. That is a pretty remarkable thing, and I think people forget that too easily. The Nazis were committed to eliminating entire races of people that they didn't like, so it was hardly practical or even possible to defeat them by the letter of our laws. It's a ridiculous debate really.
You can you also justify Einsatzgruppen with the same logic then? This is some cartoon logic here
stop trying to debate about this bs. You´re not convincing anyone thats not already on your side
The point is to not become what you're trying to fight.
@@jdotozNobody believes that crap anyways. No country has ever won a war by playing fair. The only real crime in war, is losing it.
Strategic bombing was planned before world war 2 by military strategists. You also had clear moral and legal injunctions against attacking civilians in The Hague Convention of 1899 and just in wider society. Why do you think a culture which wrote about the Railway Children and idealised itself as liberal democracy wouldn’t have been aware that this was evil? Why do you think allied propaganda deliberately used euphemisms like dehousing and precision bombing instead “murder women and children to cause terror”. That implies they knew they were breaking the law and morality but wilfully acted out of petty revenge and ignored these issues. After the war they lied about the context in which these actions were made.
Been wanting to see you make a video about the korean war, and im still waiting to see that happen.
As for morality, I think one thing to keep in mind is that back then, smart munitions like JDAMs and Laser-guided bombs didn’t exist, meaning the allies had to rely on massive bomber formations dropping lots of bombs to hopefully hit their targets, with some of those bombs inevitably hitting civilians
The city, with its inhabitants, *was* the target.
My grandfather was a cologne firefighter that night.
Just remind me again who started the war and remind me how many died in the concentration camps and how many good men and women and children were killed when London was bombed and for all those poor souls that went off to war to defend their country and never came back, and I will give you my moral judgement.
^this
Does the ADL even pay you, or do you do it for free?
About 270k died in the concentration camps, mostly from Typhus and malnutrition.
@@jakemocci3953 Holocaust-denier spotted.
Are you talking about the Jews?
I often find those that call the allied bombing missions war crimes are the same people that refuse to condemn Germany for creating weapons intended to kill civilians (V1 and V2 )
Germany started it, the allies finished it. That's way of it.
What year did Judea declare war on Germany?
This mission especially. The Ruhr region of Germany remains one of the largest industrial areas on the planet, and the Port of Dusseldorf on the Rhine is the biggest inland port in the world
Well zeplins were ww1
What a load of bullshit. 99% of the people that (rightfully) claim this was a warcrime also think that the v1 and v2 are warcrimes.
Actually the V1 and V2 are called V for Vergeltung, i.e. Retaliation. The allies started civilian killings in Hamburg early in war and then the allies finished it in Dresden; for these events all the historians agree.
War is hell. And that is that ..