The Church Fathers are Not the Context for the New Testament
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Why would we want to base our interpretations of the New Testament on a western and heavily Latin-influenced context that existed centuries after the time of Jesus? The sad truth is many of the Western Church Fathers could not read Hebrew, let alone were proficient in Greek. They were Latin speakers and Latin is not the context for either Testament. Check this out!
I listened to this while crying…we are so sorrow not as others who have no hope! I Know that Mike is with Jesus, but I selfishly miss him!
Another great, insightful and inspiring video!
God bless us, every one
Me too. Didnt know of him soon enough. Wish he were still with us, teaching us and helping us learn from his great insights.
@@FindingGod365 Yeah, by listening to his teachings ( which weren't many, I admit) its sad he's gone. Like Rob Skiba!
Question: Is Satan behind this?
@@decathlonevent no, I don't think so. God keeps Satan on a pretty short leash. I think that these are great men of God for our day, and when their work is done, God brings them home. I do feel time is speeding up. And he left a lot of books and interviews.
@@wisdomoftheearlychristians2037 Hi,
No. God doesn't do that. Scriptures tells us, he came to bring life, the enemy comes to kill, steal and destroy.
Jesus provided healing on the cross ( by whose strips we are healed. Isaiah 53). Also Jesus stated in John 14 that we shall do even greater works. By this he meant the miracles + mighty works he did, we shall do greater.
Everyone is supposed to die a natural ( although death isn't natural!) @ a good old age, this doesn't happen much, I know!
In my belief, Satan killed Mike Heiser, as I believe all sicknesses, even one's manufactured, in secret locations are from Satan.
He wasn't supposed to die, not @ that age! No, Mike didn't die coz of any sins Jesus stated that. Jesus said Satan is a murderer.
@@wisdomoftheearlychristians2037
I know 4 one thing? Satan wasn't exactly happy with Mike Heiser's teachings!
I'm not into this health + wealth prosperity gospel( as what I wrote, may sound like I am?) I just read the scriptures.
Mike being a tremendous teacher ( think he's great) I think he may have missed it, as we all do, when it comes to what scriptures say about certain things?
So sad to see him in this state, but amazing that he's still proclaiming the truth with his last breath.
I think it's apparent that apologetics fueled him and probally prolonged his life giving him something to live for. He fought the good fight and now he's with the Lord
Amazing scholar. RIP brother Mike.
I watched my father take his last breath with the same disease. It was not a pretty sight. God bless them both.
This is really helpful. Ty Lord for having sent brother Heiser to help the body of Christ in our time ✝️🙏
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Love and miss this man so much!! Biblical Theology at its finest!!
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Our dear brother is in Heaven now and now knows the Divine Council firsthand.
I imagine as he got toward the end of his life knowing he was leaving soon, that he wondered what lessons were important to teach. Some men would probably seek their own wisdom, some other men would probably seek the Lord about first. I don’t recall ever hearing about his “ process “ but I’m sure it was on his heart because it was clear he loved his students.
Heiser loved revealing the Bible to the masses, especially long know things scholars know but will not enlighten or guide the thirsty ones. His loyalty was to God's word and message via the context of Scripture. He would straight out say it plenty of times.
The fact that he did this for us almost to his death... 💔but🙌🎚
This is one of Mikes best. Cuttingly revealing. So much, too much, emphasis is put on those precious church fathers. As if they somehow were God speaking.!!
John Calvin claimed he was the one and only Voice of God on Earth and demanded the Geneva Council officially put it into law. They did and vigorously enforced it by the torture chamber, chopping block, burning stake and if lucky lose most of your possessions being banished with little time allowed.
Today he's proclaimed to be a "Giant of the Faith" and a John MacArthur quote "the most brilliant theologian ever".
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 My opinion of Calvin, one of the worst blows against truth in that same world. An evil and perverse generation indeed. Jmack? Luckily he has only those big wooden wings behind his pulpit, not nimble in flight.
@@termination9353 what is the gospel then? What does God want from us?
@@termination9353 right but tell me what specifically the gospel is in a few sentences. What did Jesus come here to say or do?
How then are we believers to properly interpret the scriptures? What would prevent the church from sub-dividing into innumerable factions based on personal interpretations of scripture? Is there not a God-ordained teaching authority present in the church? Jesus Himself trained and established twelve apostles to lead His church into all truth, bestowing upon them the special teaching and spiritual authority through the Holy Spirit. These Jesus-ordained and Spirit-anointed apostles likewise ordained and trained their own disciples, and these disciples did the same ordaining and training of others, so on and so forth down through the history of Christianity. This is the historical reality, biblical truth, and spiritual importance of apostolic succession.
Going to miss Mike a lot! .......I would argue that Mike overstates a little bit, in that the early church fathers are indeed closer to the NT context than we are in the 21st century. But Mike is without a doubt correct that, despite a few exceptions (Origen, Jerome, Tertullian perhaps), much of the early church lacked a Second Temple Jewish context necessary to read NT well, due to not knowing Hebrew well, etc., and even more removed from the Ancient Near East context. John Walton's statement is important: that we now know more about the Ancient Near East, due to archaeological studies, etc., than the early church fathers ever did. This is what tipped the scales for me away from thinking that Young Earth Creationism offers a faithful hermeneutic for reading the Creation story.
Many of the ante-nicene father's were mentored by the apostles or by those mentored by the apostles and they grew up in a context closer to that of the NT.
It was 4th, 5th and 6th-century 'fathers' to whom Mike referred.
Where is the tomb of the apostle Paul? Who is the first bishop of the church of Ephesus? Try to attend at least once the Mass in Latin, your eyes will be opened instantly.
Amen I like the apostolics
I find it interesting that the Church of Jesus was a combination of Jews and Gentiles. I'm not sure this has ever changed.
@@termination9353 - Paul and Peter built a church of Jews and Gentiles. They were pretty clear about it. Calling it the Church of Christ seems reasonable. For example, one of the main focuses of the book of Hebrews is the danger of returning back to a gospel of works. This wasn't an issue for gentiles.
BASED MICHAEL HEISER
You really did the Lord's work on earth and now you are in heaven brother❤
All Dr. Heiser is simply saying is that after the Apostles as well as their disciples, died, man's ideas and traditions began creeping in. That is why there is so much added to christianity and the church that is not scriptural at all and spans throughout All denominations today. The more time passes, the greater the perversions. But, as Dr. Heiser also states, it boils down to believing, loyalty.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Church and what the Body of Christ is. This is a very Western idea. The East would beg to differ.
@Bradley Perry the church in the east is just as perverted as the church in the west. There will be no denominations in heaven and all the religious add on's will be dead. I once considered myself eastern orthodox but discovered its discrepancies and the added traditions with no scriptural foundations.
@12345shushi They are not remotely the same.
@12345shushi I don’t think this actually proves your original point.
@12345shushi First of all, not exactly right on the history. Second of all, you’re stating “facts” as if that means something. Not sure what you’re trying to accomplish…
I'm so sad you're gone, but I'm glad you're no longer in pain. RIP
Going to seriously miss Dr. Heiser. And this shines a new light on some things that have been preached in my own church lately. One more data point to consider.
God bless you Michael Heiser to be in joy in Heaven with Yeshua HaMashiach, one in God's love. Thank you for all the wisdom and knowledge and love that you gave us here on Earth. Many blessings to you friend😇
Appreciate the continued posting of those snippets. Food for the faithful.. Thanks
as always, Dr. Heiser had a brilliant response to a pertinent question.
he is missed, but I thank you for making this video available so his teachings live on.
I really miss Dr. Heiser.
This video shows real insight into how we got some of this messed up churches teaching.
I agree with the title, but I disagree with the thumbnail. The context of the New Testament is the author's understanding of the Old Testament and what the witnesses experienced. You can't understand without the OT.
St Jerome was commissioned by the pope to translate the OT into Latin / what we know as the Vulgate.
Jerome spent years in the Holy land learning Hebrew and Aramaic languages to give the best rendering of the text.
[He was already fluent in Greek and Latin]
@@termination9353 what denomination teaches this?
@@xtraordinairartist9469 the looney bean one
Jerome thought Moses had horns
@@xtraordinairartist9469 90% chance that other guy is a solo act. The people who go off on their own and stop going to church get very strange and off track
Dr. Mike did a great job walking in the good works the Lord had for Him to do. His work is such a blessing for us.
Brothers and sisters be steadfast in your seeking of Jesus and His word. I have seen so many believers leave this world over the past decade, like Dr. Mike that have made a tremendous impact on us all. If we can do anything to repay him for his time to us, it's to continue to share the Good News and love of Jesus. We are free, because of Yeshua Jesus Christ. And He can and will free many others. And we have borrowed time because Jesus is coming quickly.
@@termination9353 I do appreciate your enthusiasm but Yeshua Jesus came in to Mortal form, He was crucified, buried in mortal form and resurrection in flesh. He was real, not a gnostic day dream.
@@termination9353 We cannot get wrapped up in conspiracies involving the infiltration of our faith. They will always be there brother, till the end. I may agree with your statement but I think the call to spread Jesus's salvation is the most important aspect. "For We wrestle not against the flesh, but the principalities and outter darknesses" Our battle has been won We just need to spread Jesus's love, salvation, and teach these things to those who need it.
@Termi Nation what do you think Jesus was teaching then if not what is said in the gospel in any form?
@Termi Nation 😂😂 You don't know me
@TermiNation Boooo *tomato tomato*
I enjoy these short videos, they're like handy little reminders.
I’m almost through MH’s The Unseen Realm. Absolutely scintillating biblical scholarship and essential reading. Must be required reading for all undergrads.
For All christians....God Bless
Thank you for his teaching. We must continue to learn. Blessings
What about the eastern fathers
Exactly, LoL.
Wow this is really good. He was a blessing to the world with his life.
God will be so happy…..
🏴 love from Scotland 🏴
I wish id started serious study when this man was alive ive so many questions
Inspiring philosophy led me here
Well I'll amend and say a mistranslation didn't help augustine allot of his earlier writings were in orthodox
He proved trinity he believed god.
But due to his gnostic up bringing
... well that slight mistranslation
Well it cucked him
He was correct in some areas like just war. He proved the trinity cane up with many good things.
But .o.g. sin.... was not one of them...
I honestly feel bad for luther and Calvin.
This man had so much play on them and on catholics in general. That they had what they could work with...
Calvinism is the worst system but he had no clue. I think Calvin in some corner of his mind recognized the problem.
You can see it with him not being sure the strange dichotomy
He didn't go as far as other calvinist
Take things like just war. Augustine was correct we needed to look to the o.t. and if God was for certain war.
Without it we would be speaking German and proly be in a concentration camp.
I subscribe to leighton flowers and to idol killer
I will say tho that idol killer is wrong about psa. Calvin didn't come up with as much as he rediscovered it. It was among very early father's. Talking about christ substituting himself for us.
So I would say we should measure Calvin's doctrines each one by merit.
Tulip... was terrible. Nothing in tulip works.
O.g. sin was awful 🤮
But there love of the trinity.
Calvin trying to thread the eucharist needle between zwingli and luther. And being more close to Aquinas (which catholics respect now I guess)
He's not the metaphor seeker we all think.
There were good things. I do think he was trying but coming through years of traditional muck
Because the church was pure fighting against heresies
I recommend against all heresies
Irenaeus
@@TheLionFarm He literally wrote that book for comments like the above
Why was the transcript not posted at the (...) icon? Maybe it will show up after a few hours?
There it is, five hours later. Thanks.
Barakah, Dr. Heiser sleep well, friend. Arise to your glory, Amein.
Who was right as far as the difference between the Sadducees, pharacies, and zadoc essenes?
Oh my goodness this popped up on my feed at just the right time I needed to hear this ❤ Dr. H continues to never fail to disappoint, even after his passing he still speaks... love it. Ty Dr. H, may you rest with God, ik you are... 🙏🏼 🤍
QUESTION... where can we learn more about heisers teaching on rom 5:12
???
Just type "Heiser, Romans 5" on youtube search
On RUclips search for "Dr. Michael Heiser original sin"
@@termination9353 --- uh... WHAT??
cannot understand
@SDsc0rch don't worry, termi is a loon.
He's wrong about why people pay attention to the Fathers: many, many do so because of the promise Jesus made that the Holy Spirit would lead the church into all truth, and because Paul said the Holy Spirit gives teachers to the church. In combating early heresy after early heresy, who stands out? The Fathers!
Though I encountered an interesting argument that the promise Jesus gave was rendered void at the Council of Chalcedon when a decision was reached not entirely on the basis of theology but because the emperor applied political pressure to force the council to reach a decision before completely discussing the issues, thus splitting two sections of the church who actually believed the same things but couldn't agree on the wording, that since Jesus made the promise to all the Apostles together it only carried through so long as all their successors stood together to hear the Spirit, so when politics forced a decision and the church leaders bowed to those politics the church was broken.
Right on the target, Mike is 100% correct!
What about the Fathers before the 4th Century and the ones that spoke Greek?
I think his point would still stand? Idk. The 4th century is still a very very long time after the life of Christ
@@Gwoog55 church fathers goes back to the first century… example would be st clement of rome
@@Southernboy22 yeah I think he’s more in reference to the later ones. As far as I know Heiser probably doesn’t disagree with the teachings of clement, Iranaeus or ploycarp. He’s speaking of those in the later centuries who didn’t even understand Greek or Hebrew making doctrinal statements using the Latin manuscripts which is a known fact that those aren’t as accurate
@@Gwoog55 I’m not Roman Catholic I’m orthodox so we condemn most Latin manuscripts bc most of them are forgeries but some are legit
@@Southernboy22 ahhh I see. Well Heiser even says in the video (and others) something about the Greek tradition having the better manuscripts so there ya go🤷♂️
Wow... this was so mind-blowing
@@termination9353 U jokin, rite?
@@termination9353 LOL, nope.
@@termination9353 k
@@termination9353 Yeah, thanks for the laughs
Greatly missed
Miss you Mike 😢
Augustine was the most aweful thing to happen
He didnt have a mistranslation.
He was gnostic.
Prior to christian
And this is the root of Calvin's theology. Funny how many have zero clue. 🤦
RIP, Sir.
So Dr Heiser states the church fathers relied on church tradition rather than the source. I believe he is meaning the scriptures, however in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Paul clearly tells the church to follow the traditions, or what has been taught verbally as well as their letters. This invalidates Sola Scriptura. Also, he claims the early fathers weren’t consulting the Hebrew. They didn’t have to they were using the Vetus Latina or Septuagint. Dr Heiser is showing a distinct Protestant bias vs looking for truth.
Having the Church Fathers contextualize the NT is like having your own great-great-great grandchildren explain the context of your personal life, and from a different language, and without your input or a biography. Primary sources provide the context, not traditions about you 400 yrs from now.
The early Christians would strongly disagree with you lol
@@Southernboy22 you have zero proof of that
@ChosenCatholic of course a Catholic would say that.
@@wordsofjames the early Christian and the early church was one unified body agreeing on the traditions and customs the apostles instructed them. Protestantism is a 500 years old denomination that broke off from the Catholic Church lol
@ChosenCatholic
John 14:
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
It's the work of The Holy Spirit.
I miss him...
“The Church fathers” is a very strange anomaly.
Not scriptural.
What to do now?
Church History
Thanks!
This is very interesting
The Church Fathers are Not the Context for the New Testament ? then who ,this guy talking ? who was probably born in 1960
Second Temple scholars.
How then are we believers to properly interpret the scriptures? What would prevent the church from sub-dividing into innumerable factions based on personal interpretations of scripture? Is there not a God-ordained teaching authority present in the church? Jesus Himself trained and established twelve apostles to lead His church into all truth, bestowing upon them the special teaching and spiritual authority through the Holy Spirit. These Jesus-ordained and Spirit-anointed apostles likewise ordained and trained their own disciples, and these disciples did the same ordaining and training of others, so on and so forth down through the history of Christianity. This is the historical reality, biblical truth, and spiritual importance of apostolic succession.
We know by studying.
@@winniecash1654so you rely on academia instead of Revelation. Thanks for admitting that.
@kevinmacbearach8629 I wouldn't call me reading and studying my Bible "academia."
This sentiment is (was) one of Mike's blind spots. Now he sees. The way we know the early Church (out of which the NT emerges and comes to be known over the span of 300+ yrs.) is the Fathers. They are the ones who tell you what the Bible even is to begin with (for the Bible NEVER does). No Fathers, no Bible. Heiser's perspective will produce the scene in Back To The Future where Marty disappears from his own family photo unless his parents meet and fall in love. Mike would not have ever known what the Bible *is* without the men he thinks he does not need to know what it means.
Yes, thank you for saying this. I've learned a lot from MH, but he is right about everything.
he is NOT* right about everything.
Here’s looking at you, trinity doctrine
Paul did say hold to the traditions in 2 Thes. 2:15. So there is that. Love Michael's work but the church fathers are probably a good place to look what the church should look like.
This is the most ignorant rant I’ve heard in a while.
Like all humans, including this very video, the Church Fathers were engaging with the gospel in their own times. That does not mean their thought was irrelevant or useless to understanding the gospel.
Once a person starts straying from the Scriptures then the Bible becomes YOUR word, not Gods!!!
Holy Spirit is referred to as IT in Greek. Couldn't do that so they defaulted to HE. In Hebrew and Aramaic translations the Holy Spirit is interchangeable between male and female, depending on the Spirit's role. Look it up.
We know.
What about the ante nicene fathers?
❤
I appreciated some of Dr Heiser’s work, however this clip is an unfortunate example of the arrogance of modern scholarship as well as the sloppy grouping of all church father’s and saints into the teachings of the western church which later went into schism.
He asked why would we want to contextualize the New Testament with people living 2,3,4,5 hundred years after the New Testament? Well those are the people who decided what the New Testament was first of all, so show some gratitude and humility.
Secondly, I’ll throw the question back at you, why would we trust people living 1,900 to 2,000 years after the New Testament to explain it all to us better than those who lived closer to the time? Because of Logos Bible software? I’m sure it’s a great tool, but that seems to imply that man developed scholastic software is more dependable than the Holy Spirit and Godly men and women that were appointed to guide the church. Many who knew the Greek language natively in many cases, and who came from the chain of the apostolic teaching and had a better grasp on its meaning in the context of the practices and liturgy and life of the church. A church the apostles would recognize and be more familiar with than many of the ones we have today (including myself in there as an evangelical).
Who preserved the scriptures and decided what the canon was? Who taught against the heretics? Who often went to their bloody death as martyrs for the faith? It wasn’t these modern scholars who criticize the church fathers.
The title might be a bit misleading because he does seem to be more negative towards western writers and teachers than the eastern. Either way, Dr Heiser definitely painted with too broad a brush and probably a bit of ignorance in what he said here. Lord have mercy.
Also, shouldn’t we be a little more cautious about assuming the Hebrew is more reliable than the Greek NT? Wasn’t the Septuagint the translation that was quoted in the NT? And doesn’t the Septuagint help us get a better picture of how the people closer to OT times understood the Hebrew texts that were translated into Greek (and later passed into history). And I could be wrong, but wasn’t the Masoretic text developed by rabbinic Jews in the tradition of the Pharisees who were trying to fight against the idea that Jesus was the messiah of Israel? I believe there are some teachings that people have done on passages in Isaiah and Psalm 22 where this is illustrated.
Heiser was anything but ignorant and he certainly did not cling to the opinions of ignorant men. Unless the "church fathers" knew the context, which includes 2nd Temple Lit, they were only giving their opinions from the Latin Vulgate. History trivia>> Calvin's favorite Bible was the Latin Vulgate.
Why do I need their opinions? They had less insight than I do and mine came from the Holy Spirit leading me to Heiser as a big "last step" in rebuilding my faith being drawn back to God.
If Mike is dead, who's uploading videos? His son?
God's rivals by Gerald
👍👍💯💯❤❤
1) The Syriac Church Fathers such as St. Ephrem knew Aramaic well and the Syriac Church has maintained it to this day. I l love Dr. Michael Heiser and his work, but he definitely shows some of his ignorance in this area of scholarship. 2) Many of Dr. Heiser's conclusions about 2nd Temple Period Judaism matches the cosmological world of the many of the church fathers much better than modern Protestant theology! The Divine Court and the heiarchy of the angels are all over the place in the post-New Testament period. 3) The earliest church fathers overlap with the New Testament period. Didache, 1 Clement, St. Ignatius of Antioch. After that. St. Polycarp and St. Irenaus are disciples of St. John the Apostle so they definitely have some relevance. Again, I love this man, but so many scholars would disagree with these remarks.
Ironically, some people have joined Catholic or Orthodox churches because of Dr. Michael Heiser's work which very much harmonizes with the thinking of the Church Fathers, particularly in the far east tradition. The fathers of the Syriac Catholic, Syriac Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East very much jive with Heiser. These Christians descended from the Jews living in Babylon even before the time of Jesus. Ethiopion Orthodox even have the Book of Enoch in their Bible, which certain influence Heiser's scholarship.
@@barrelagedfaith I probably wouldn't have come so comfortably to EO unless I knew Heiser's work. He was definitely very biased against traditional Christianity, and just has a general lack of knowledge of Patristics and honestly, Biblical theology. He had some real good scholarship in parts of the Old Testament, but he fails hard when it comes to Biblical Theology as a whole...
why would you want the Holy Fathers to contextualize the New Testament? simple. because they live it. the context of the New Testament is the Holy Spirit, respectively the Church. when will the Protestants understand that the Church existed even without the New Testament? and this was possible because they lived it. not the New Testament must be contextualized in the sense that it is the source of Christianity, but life in Christ. The New Testament is adjacent, just as the Jews had the writings of the Old Testament and that did not make them any better. it is the repeated cry of the prophets, who represented the life actually lived in the Spirit of God. the Protestants, like Augustine, are torn from their origin. Heiser, unintentionally talks about Protestants. let's turn the question around: why should Protestants contextualize the New Testament, since the New Testament was born in the Church, and they are separated from the Church?
and one more thing, not to confuse patristic literature with the Church, a confusion often encountered in the Protestant world. no ecclesiastical writer claimed to represent the opinion of the Church. as did Luther and co.
And yet ''scholars'' living 2,000 years later are? 😂
Yknow how it goes. Bible codes and all that.
He's not claiming to be the context...
I'm for the apostolic doctrines
Pretty sure he didn't say that. In fact, he explained exactly what the context was. I love these fallacious appeals to history and argument-from-age fallacies (not to mention the strawman you committed above) that so many people love to commit. It's fascinating.
@@christiang4497 It's scholasticism gone hyper haywire. He's implying him and his software have the proper context and the traditions passed down from the apostles are irrelevant. Like every gnostic that believes they've found our Lord's true hidden meaning, every protestant believes they found the proper context and everybody else is wrong.
THE SCRIPTURES ALONE! All the add on's are man made religious flesh and pride. Thank you Brother Mike. You are a true Saint!
Respectfully, Mike is saying that archaeology and historical writings have facilitated a better and more contextual understanding of scripture. Not sure Mike would support the standard Sola Scriptura understanding.
How then are we believers to properly interpret the scriptures? What would prevent the church from sub-dividing into innumerable factions based on personal interpretations of scripture? Is there not a God-ordained teaching authority present in the church? Jesus Himself trained and established twelve apostles to lead His church into all truth, bestowing upon them the special teaching and spiritual authority through the Holy Spirit. These Jesus-ordained and Spirit-anointed apostles likewise ordained and trained their own disciples, and these disciples did the same ordaining and training of others, so on and so forth down through the history of Christianity. This is the historical reality, biblical truth, and spiritual importance of apostolic succession.
Don't understand why people get so hyped up about the teachings of the church "fathers". Its almost like they care more about what the early church fathers teachings rather than what Jesus and the true apostles who actually wrote inspired scripture taught. just earlier I was having a discussion with someone who was asking "why should paul be above what the early fathers taught." Not only that, but seeing artistic portraits of the early church "fathers" with halos above their heads like they had some kind of divinity, its just complete and utter blasphemy
Man! I know that normal people will probably get
pithed at me posting this here.
I mean No Disrespect! Dr Heiser was such a CLEAR voice of reason in my spiritual confusion that he is most definitely part of my salvation(in progress),
but here it is,
It drives me Nuts that seemingly NEVER, do we see powerful world leaders or super rich elites, die from cancer, yet, the list of people, who spoke to the masses with truth, common sense, and authority
(which obviously kinda deviates from the narrative)
and who thereby begin to amass a following,
that suddenly contracted cancer(always an "especially aggressive" form)and were then just...gone...so rapidly.....
Billions, upon Billions of dollars have been dumped into cancer research....
One, identifiable group Never seems afflicted by it....
Another identifiable group(largely by their inconvenient existence)
appears fantastically susceptible to it.....
Im sorry if my sadness and anger and paranoia
(🤨but am I paranoid enough🤔), have been rendered here offensively. I do of course understand and forgive any and all their anger or judgement.
Pls consider that this is one of the places I would go to voice my well thought through, self evident, painful conclusions, so that I could leave chagrined and red faced
(every freakin time lol),
but more importantly, enlightened, stronger and somehow lighter....
And that has all changed...and its hard to attribute it to coincidence.
Anyway, God bless. Love to All🙏❤️🇨🇦🍻
Hello Brother and thank you for sharing your heart…
I just wanted to share mine in response… also to say I don’t think your feelings are wrong or even as if there’s any issue with noticing all of the evils either by way of world leaders, by helping or not helping in regard to research for disease etc or Lord only knows what occurs in these circumstances but I wanted to rabbit trail here for a second…
Earlier today I was having a conversation and I couldn’t shake this word beleaguered
In full transparency I don’t know that word 😂 I honestly don’t ever remember committing to memory any such word but I of course googled the definition:
1.
in a very difficult situation.
"the board is supporting the beleaguered director amid calls for his resignation"
2.
(of a place) surrounded by armed forces aiming to capture it or force surrender; besieged.
"he led a relief force to the aid of the beleaguered city"
And I thought ok…. Well now in order to test if this is something the Holy Spirit put on my heart for some reason what scripture is related and of course another google search led me to Psalm 73…
I couldn’t get half way through the verses and felt like I was being understood in a way that really blew my mind regarding this understanding of why the wicked prosper… In my own personal circumstances I’ve had to call out false teaching and and truly getting out of those environments was only a work of God through the Spirit and by His lead my understanding of biblical truths and concepts has grown exponentially since and led me to incredible men of God like Dr Heiser… but truly not even until recently because I wasn’t spiritually or emotionally mature enough to handle what he shares and I question my capacity even now 😅 but all that to say we’re here for as long as the Lord allows and in that we can rejoice that we have access to incredible wisdom of men and women of God who have poured out until their last breath the truths of God… as the world turns and moves away from truth, care, love we can take heart bc Christ’s overcoming of death and his explanations of what the world loves in opposition to what he says as well when can continue to see His Truth, we will not understand his ways but we can take heart is his overcoming bc in him we overcome as well:
Here’s the end of psalm but I highly encourage you read it in totality:
”Who do I have in heaven but you? And I desire nothing on earth but you. My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart, my portion forever. Those far from you will certainly perish; you destroy all who are unfaithful to you. But as for me, God’s presence is my good. I have made the Lord God my refuge, so I can tell about all you do.“
Psalms 73:25-28 CSB
Even though those who do evil seem to escape they truly don’t
those who die seem to go so quickly but those in Christ are eternally secure in Him… it’s this that we have to fear and so bc we know that our days may be fewer and the wicked may seem to stay until that Day of Lord comes we can draw our strength from the hope of God’s word and look to the finished work of Christ so that in suffering we may rest in Him and by faith we can follow
Him come what may…
Anyways that’s my long drawn out two cents…
Praying for you brother!
Judas Iscariot was one of the closest to Jesus and look how wrong he got it all. This comment is for all of those lost souls trying desperately to defend their precious "fathers" and their God forsaken backslidden pagan cult of catholicism and eastern "orthodoxy".
Every Christian should read the books of the Church fathers, the Gospel being preached in America is full of agnosticism teachings, it’s why every Christian that reads 1 John 1:7-9 thinks they are sinners and can never stop sinning, when 1john 1:7-9 was addressing agnosticism coming in the church and they was saying they didn’t need the blood of Christ and saying they never sinned.
And Johns disciple was the angel and in charge of the church of Smyrna his name was polycarp, and irenaeus one of the church fathers was a boy and quotes what polycarp was addressing against agnosticism, and the church he was in was Smyrna and Smyrna was one of the seven churches that was good only two of the churches were good out of the seven.
And Jesus addressed those churches, and said the church of Smyrna was good, so if that church is good, and on the right path and the church, father speaks the truth of the church, and what was going on then, so I can definitely read those books and place biblical principles to compare if I or a church I’m attending is biblical.
So agree to disagree
Amen 🙌 apostolic early Church History over most modern scholarship thousands of years later
Gnosticism of a variety were already a problem confronting the original Apostles, including Paul. It should be no surprise as Gnosticiam mostly was from the Greek and Persian worlds for centuries before Christ.
@@termination9353 Paul definitely wasn’t a fraud and I would say 90% real Christians not the ones that preach this water down fake gospel,
don’t even understand Paul’s teachings especially in Roman’s
@@termination9353 the templars where not if god they was evil murders,
You have made a bunch of claims that’s been floating around from the recent years
No proof they altered the gospel it’s another theory
And Rome had nothing to do with Christianity till the 3rd century when Augustine brought it in and mixed it with his paganism,
And no one can confirm Lazarus wrote anything it just another theory so far you don’t count theories proof they are just educated guesses.
@@Baltic_Hammer6162 Gnosticism didn’t even exist till first century.
Not sure how you got centuries before Christ
Kinda ironic that Christians carrying on the traditions that we say "why are they setting the context?" While we dig up ugaritic pagan junk and determining ancient Hebrew things on that?
✝️🇮🇱Between Genesis 12:3 and Matthew 25:31-46 is God's👑❤️ for Israel;✝️ our aid & support to Israel in return blesses us🇮🇱✝️
I have to say the Church Fathers are extremely suspicious in some cases
The context of scripture is scripture, not second temple literature or the Fathers. The most appropriate method of interpretation is intertextual and figural. Every denomination up until very recently interpreted in this way. It is the way the Apostles read the OT, but also the fathers, the medievals, the Reformers, Puritans, Pentecostals and so on. Indeed, second temple and rabbinic interpreters assume the same given that intertextual exegesis of Scripture logically follows from belief in the unity of Scripture. I really appreciate Heiser, but he was also a modern man of his time. Moderns love their near eastern background, archeology, and pseudepigrapha. This is fine. Our moment in time, however, does not give us an edge on the Holy Spirit. All things necessary for salvation are already in Scripture. Second temple literature isn’t so much useful for giving us an archaeology of ideas behind the Bible, as it is an example of how ancient interpreters read Scripture intertextually and therefore share hermeneutical assumptions shared by the Fathers. The way we think more like the ancients, then, is to think a little less like Heiser and to lean into the kind of typological/figural reading that turns off modern scholars (like Heiser?).
Source: your personal opinion
Disappointing he passed in this kind of ignorance.