I really am not sure why Danny is wasting his time on an amateur petty guy like Jay. Now that he is looking to cash in with CSS audio, Danny is his primary competitor. It is not hard to nail down the motives of that guy's videosm
That was a really low answer. Danny has his niche and Jay his. Colleague and competitor, in a civil manner. How would gain on being a a-hole? Drama for the audience? Dog fight?
@@wa2368 I don't want either CSS or gr-research to do badly. That is no good for anybody. They can Inspire each other to both improve products and reduce prices, or not. But if only one of them were to exist, there ain't no way that's going to happen, and consumers will be the losers.
Now that is the professional, patient, mature way to reply to concerns of reviewers/customers! Thanks, Danny, you are a treasure of the dyi audio industry
I was totally blown away by the improvements in the RP600M with the kit and what really blew me away was the sound staging and especially the depth of the sound stage and the improved presence in the mid-range and the detail up in the highest. It was a lot of fun to do. Made a big difference. Didn't cost a ton of money. Totally a win-win-win. I would love to see Jay experience what I did by sending in a cheap speaker doing the upgrade and then making the comparison. I understand the points being made about maybe criticizing the process, but unless you are able to go through the process and hear the differences yourself, then you are really just making assumptions. The other thing is that doing these upgrades is a load of fun and it's really had me go off on my own on working on some other speakers and building amplifiers and that's really what I think Danny is all about with this endeavor.
Noticeably significant speaker improvement is a combination of a LOT of different individual relatively minor or "subtle" improvements, which then combine all together into a MAJORLY noticeable improvement overall, from the way the overall speaker sounded before doing ANY improvements on it at all. Everything Danny is saying here, I totally agree with because I've experienced these exact same things in my own speaker modifications over the decades... And I've improved literally hundreds of speakers already, at least as a hobby... I don't have a business, but I love to experiment with speakers anyway.
As someone who's spent close to 30 years geeking out on audio - studied audio engineering & electronics, built speakers, etc... and checked out many of the 'audiophile' youtube channels; Danny is the real deal.
@Danny Richie - You are a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ Class Act!!! You and your Team at GR Research have made incredible contributions to our understanding as to how impactful even subtle cabinet, crossover, wiring and equipment alterations can improve our listening experience….and I am pleased to say, I am a beneficiary of the information you have freely and generously shared via your RUclips channel. Thank you so much!
Your patience and your teaching abilities are remarkable thank you for your time I've just learned so much just watching your Channel about Acoustics frequency response crossovers networking is what Giver drivers do and how to change things and it's just really opened my eyes up to A Whole New World roof treatments and everything just incredible thank you
Love how Danny tames all these misconceptions to the audience . I have watched every single video of Danny's from years. I must say, i admire and respect the way he handles situations where people accuse him of doing something wrong. Its very respectable and shows the power of knowledge and knowledge sharing. I wish some day i could work for you, instead of with you. Because there is so much to learn from you, not jst about speakers but also about "perceived perspectives" too. Cheers from India.
Hey Danny! Thank you for the response and clarification. I love the fact that you actually take criticisms and turn it into a learning experience because that's not something everyone can do so Kudos to you once again. Few clarifications from my video: 1. You mentioned splicing in the frequency response which is what I said in my video and I think there was a bit of misunderstanding there, I said "that's fair" which means I don't have problems with the way you do your measurements. I was just reporting the "Why" you do the measurements the way you do (which you explain here again) So no problems there. 2. of course you don't measure 2 speakers when doing design work, Absolutely. But you certainly listen to a stereo pair when doing design work as you do with your kits all the time *but not with your upgrade kits* (which is true and is what I reported) I never made that criticism that you don't measure 2 speakers, it was more in reference to how you *don't really listen to your upgrade kits* to get all the intangible things down perfectly with heavy listening test *that you do on your own DIY Kits.* Which again, as I said, "only rightfully so because your products comes first." 9:35 somewhat explains that you don't need to do the same listening tests because it is repeatable and you've done it multiple times before. Makes sense, got it. That was the main issue I had but now I have an answer. Honestly speaking, I don't I resonate with the "repeatability" part as much from my experience, as the crossover parts also seemed to sound different in interaction with different drivers used. Kind of like how you know the sound of X amplifier but then it doesn't sound good with every speaker. You obviously know the drivers you use in your kits very well and know it interacts well with the parts you use but I'm not sure if that is a "repeatable" phenomenon with other brand speakers with different drivers like a "one fit all solution" 3. I'm with you on solving "actual" problems. 4. 20:00 Mark - Holly crap that explains so much. I was not told this and I don't know your pre-amp so no wonder! 23:22 Cmon Danny! Why else would I keep asking to hear it without the subs ! haha
Okay 1, 3 and 4 we're good. #2. This is where experience comes in. I not only know from experience what effect certain parts are going to have, but I have to know how those effects are going to match with different drivers. A lot of things have no adverse effect. For instance going from an iron core inductor to an air core inductor. The the audible differences are the same regardless of the woofer. The same is true for things in the signal path like binding posts, steal nuts, wire, and connectors. There are however, instances where different capacitors work better with certain tweeters. For instance I wouldn't use an Aluminum foil cap on a Focal tweeter. I have to make sure that I know that the parts I am using in an upgrade will match well with the drivers being used. Experience, experience.... Also, if a built out a a pair of every speaker I design an upgrade for, burn them in, listen to them for weeks, and try to tweak every last bit of perfection out of them then that would be a really expensive upgrade. Most of the stuff I have to design new crossovers for already had issues. Some of them have massive issues. So just solving those problems and upgrading the parts quality to the level of the drivers is a significant upgrade, and if I can do it proficiently then it can be an inexpensive upgrade for the customer.
@@dannyrichie9743 All I have to say to that is R.E.S.P.E.C.T it is funny though because my only criticism to you in that video was that you don't listen to your upgrade kits like you do with your own products but funny enough aren't we on the same point of view on that one? *That you gotta always listen* That is what I think we agreed and saw eye to eye. *Now I realize you are saying that you have done this for such a long time that you have it all down like muscle memory... I believe you and that is very very respectable.* I also have no problem with you spending less time on your upgrade kits VS you own products, that's understandable as I've stated in my video.
I'm not sure why this video has so many negative comments especially towards Jay. The videos Jay made while at GR Research were positive along with making a few valid points. The response video by Dannie also clears a lot of this up. Both of you guys are awesome and thank you guys for sharing your passions with the rest of us audio whackadoos
@@JayiyagiThat guy is not in the business of micromanaging every cheap speaker sent into him. I still don’t think you get what he is saying. He’s taking a potato and turning it into a baked potato with cream cheese and chives. He’s not trying to turn the potato into a porterhouse with a side of asparagus for $12 L O L
Excellent information and very well presented. I learned a lot from this video. With old ears and damaged hearing I'm not capable of discerning small incremental audio improvements but I do realize that most are 'directionally correct' from a design standpoint. And I certainly support the concept of a project that provides hands-on learning and development. Well done.
This is one of the best videos you've ever done. Especially great or the naysayers who say things like, "then why did speaker company X design it that way, if they could have done if your way?". "Are you saying you know better than company X?". Especially helpful were when you stated, that having big phase problem at the crossover, is not a matter of voicing the speaker. It is ALWAYS a problem. Or the problem with stored energy, or unbraced cabinet, or bad off axis response, etc, etc. Those things are bad speaker design., they are not personal preference.
Jay could have approached this more professionally. I watched his video. Gotcha journalism. You guys are now supposed friends so he could have asked you for a follow up discussion, instead of taking your video clip out of context.
I could be wrong but I suspect that cheap parts are used in speakers because the bean counters get involved and figure out that they can save a buck or two
Hi Danny, You covered a lot of important topics in this video. At about 16:30 into it, you began addressing the topic of spatial imaging and some of the factors that influence spatial cues. Getting these factors right requires listening to the stereo pair to make the correct adjustments. My son used to play a game of having me guess whether a vintage recording was recorded using a acoustic horn ( e.g. - Edison's "Mary had a little lamb" or the earliest recordings of Rhapsody in blue ( 1920s); or a crystal mic ( 1930s); or electronic mic ( 1940s), etc. There are some differences that are subtle, and some are quite evident. It's amazing how much of what we understand of high fidelity starts at the proper gathering of the signal and ends with speakers properly dispersing them into the listening environment. Thank you for another informative and fun lesson !
Man your a passionate audiophile professional who helps even the new commers and experts know you comitment to atempt o reproduce the original irst gneration sound recording without any added room accoustic anomallies and make the given product your chalengd to improve due to manufacturers conomoc cutbacks due to comptition. I appreciate your passion. Best wishes i can see you love the chalenges, bothe electro magnetic or just darn write mechanical udesired cab an driver resonances . God bless you my son. Kanaris from Cyprus far Easten Europe avid follower of your seminars thanks 🙏🏻
Love both your and Jay's perspectives. The fact that you treat each other's opinions and observations with respect and an open ear (and mind ) is something other reviewers should make note of and aspire to.
people just need to use their own discernment regarding what resonates with them...I appreciate Danny and Jay's input and find it all valuable...thanks, guys...
thanks GR-Research for the reminder about filtering out sub-bass from bookshelvers, fortunately my Vaf Research SW2's can do that filtering with a high pass out, got an immediate improvement in sound.
I think Jay is being honest and objective. I have built a bunch of GR's speakers, including 2 pairs of NX-Treme's. The lack of bottom end is not simply a filter situation. I ran my NX-Treme's for over a year without a filter and that was always the most disappointing aspect of the speakers. So many woofers, yet very little bass. I even have 2 pairs of triple OB subs and STILL not enough bass. I had to add 2 rythmik sealed subs to get any punch. That said, the OB bass did open my eyes to how smeared bass is with most speaker designs. That punch comes at a cost. The bass, while not as pronounced as I would like, is extremely fast and detailed. After owning this system for a few years the bass in other systems usually bothers me for it's lack of speed and detail. The mids and highs on the NX-Treme's are among the best I've ever heard. For the most part, I agree with what Danny has said in this video (other than the bass). I do think there is a huge difference between speaker design and a speaker review. Everyone who is paying attention knows that Amir at ASR is a joke. However, I do still think there is still a little something to the criticism about not listening to 2 speakers with these design upgrades. You made some specific mentions of a few speakers where the speakers had obvious problems - phase issues, resonances, etc. For those issues I would agree that a single speaker is enough. However, for other, more subtle issues I feel like an actual listening session with 2 speakers could make a big difference. In the same way that you might try several different amps in a system, or even speaker or power cables - the same should be true of crossover parts. You might know that a sonicap is going to be cleaner than a cheap cap that is put into the speaker from the factory - but how do you know that particular brand of cap is really the best choice for that speaker? To do this however, a customer would have to ship 2 speakers and it would involve a lot of listening tests and iterative changes. It's just not really feasible - it would be too expensive. I think you are able to make positive changes, but just not necessarily getting the *best* you could out of a speaker without doing actual listening. Is that fair?
Subsonic what you have described is just the way OB speakers are. They will never imo be the same as a box speaker for obvious reasons. OB does have bass but it's not percussive / impactful bass. Subs are really the only option and you don't want them to play up to high? It wouldn't be feasible for Danny to listen to every set of speakers, so he's just making an educated decision what would be best?
Amir does not 'review' speakers. He give a short subjective view of what the speaker sounds like tonally, which is better with 1 speaker. Tonality flaws, mismatched drivers will show itself more easily with 1 speaker. He doesnt review anything, you dont hear terms like 'musicality' 'speed' 'dimensionality' in his subjective portion. How potentially big the soundstage will be on a speaker can be all seen in the data, it really depends on how you translate it to your advantage. Its sure way better than some random guy telling you "man, the soundstage on these speakers are crazy" for you to bring it to your room to find it meh.
Thank you for your comments, first of all. As for your question...."but how do you know that particular brand of cap is really the best choice for that speaker? To do this however, a customer would have to ship 2 speakers and it would involve a lot of listening tests and iterative changes. It's just not really feasible - it would be too expensive. I think you are able to make positive changes, but just not necessarily getting the best you could out of a speaker without doing actual listening. Is that fair?" The answer is simply, experience. Having done this for years I know what types of components work well or match well with certain drivers. Keep in mind, I am fixing problems, making improvements, and trying to do so with as low of a cost as possible. Building out a pair of something, burning them in, listening for weeks and making any further tweaks would make those upgrade real expensive.
@@dannyrichie9743 That's in effect what I was trying to say. What I was hopefully articulating was that you are able to get 80-90% of the best out of a speaker by only getting one speaker - all of it better than the way it was. To get that last 10-20% you would really need to spend a huge amount of time really listening with a bunch of different components - all burned in. It would take far too much time to be financially feasible, and the way you do it gets you a big improvement at the lowest cost.
Considering what seems to have transpired here, I think Danny’s response is incredibly restrained, and even compassionate. He could have been a lot harsher, and yet he couched everything in friendly terms, and explained the facts simply and calmly. Jay, I love you man, but not a fan of how all this went down. I hope the whole “designing your own speakers” venture isn’t going to change you too much. 😏
From my amateurish and limited, speaker and crossover design experience, when I watch Jay's video, I understood that Jay was out of his skill set. What Jay does and what Danny does are intrinsically, quite different. Sure there is overlap but Jay was taking his commentary too far into the design realm where he lacks capability. (And it showed.)
I can tell you on the recording end , say on the drums, there is usually room mics away from the drum set that adds depth. A speaker smearing a subtle sound like that can ruin the effect the recording engineer was trying to accomplish.
I also thought this. Normally, you’d run things by the person you’re doing a video on, not necessarily for their consent, but just to see if there were any glaring errors or misunderstandings (as there were in this case).
Danny you are a master of audio and your explanation of things is fantastic. They way you explain testing methods really indicates how people like amir just don’t quite understand the full picture.
I appreciated your measured and very well-articulated response to Jays video. I can appreciate Jays preference for a warmer sound: Having said that… I thought several of your speakers were missing that warmth I like (Opinion). I typically don’t use any EQ when I play music, I want it to sound like it is suppose to sound, like your sitting in front of the artist. I know I could buy a sub or a woofer stack and complete the overall sound signature, but at what cost? I would like to thank you for the Brute speaker you recently developed. I purchased a DIY kit and the knockdown cabinets from you and I was amazed at the design of these cabinets, they are very solid, very heavy cabinets. They are capable of producing a warm sound without sacrificing the mids and highs and without any EQ. I am really enjoying these speakers. I think this design emphasizes the points you made about the overall impact of frequency on Amp load. Again Thank you for all the years of learning and I strongly recommend listening to Justin Johnson on the Brutes😊 Keep on Keepin On!
Great discussions! Especially enjoyed the parts about listening to one speaker. When you play 2 speakers certain lower frequencies reinforce or “couple together” which usually adds a richer sound than the 1 speaker measurement. Sometimes it can help the floor bounce cancellations which you don’t see in a single speaker measurement. I can’t mention names, but I had extensive discussions with a speaker designer from a very famous British manufacturer who explained that they would design and measure a very good looking response speaker then set up a typical consumer room and have many people listen to the system. He said extensive changes to the crossover would be made until these listeners approved of the sound. The ending measurements didn’t look textbook great as some professional reviewers noted. (They spent all that $ on R&D and this is the best they can do?) As far as parts go if the current retail pricing scheme reflects 4X the price of the xover parts this gets pricey quick, let’s put in 14 $60 capacitors, foil inductors, etc. Have you seen the xover parts count in Krell speakers? Thanks for the easy to understand concepts of speakers to increase folks knowledge!
A very informative reply to Jay's video. We are all learning from this. Regarding base, I just assumed that Jay is a bass-head whose house moves with his music! ;-)
Thanks again Danny for another informative video. I have developed reliable design parameters which improves bass frequency output below rolloff limitations. I'll reach out again soon regarding phase shift questions. Cheers!
Danny great video response. Love all the upgrade kits you sell. Gives alot of options to people who already own those speakers and dont wanna sell them to upgrade.
Exactly the points i made on jays threads. well done as usual. the pre amp settings was your bad tho. wink. you really laid this out precisely. this myth that speaker designers intended to create big lumpy freq response graphs needed to be killed again.
Jay is doing his utmost best in building his channel and sound reproduction knowledge. Kudos to him. Like so many of us have done, Jay is now experiencing the early stages of the Dunning-Kruger effect. That is absolutely normal considering where he is at in his journey. But as some of his videos show, it’s also something important to be aware of - learn about this and keep it in the back of the mind throughout the journey.
Should you always switch to a better terminal or better components on a speaker? No, not if the loudspeaker has too many problems in the frequency, then there is no point in doing so. This is where many people get it wrong
Busy day today Danny after Jay sprang that video. the comments Re: other big name manufactourers spending 1000's of hours in R&D and using Anechoic chmbers versus Gated time window was a bit irrelevant considering that despite tose resources and faciliries they still vome out with speakers that dont perform well. I'm still with you. in fact I was todayin my workshop making up some pure copper Crocodile clip / solid core copper wire jumpers to do on hew fly crossover mods. thanls for the inspiration
Completely Agree ! I also Filter out the super low frequencies from my equipment also. I don’t trust peoples opinions that look for low frequency instant gratification.
The shape of peoples ear varies significantly in both aesthetics and hearing frequency response. In short, big flat ears will hear differently from smaller cup ears that protrude from the sides of the head. A mold of different ear shapes and sizes and testing what frequencies are emphasized and deemphasized entering each uniquely shaped ear.
While I watch both, my ears are old and been through a lot. Speakers would probably sound different to me than either evaluators. I used to build audio equipment and GR provides me with a great deal of technical information which is more useful for decision making. Opinions listening will vary greatly. I appreciate the technical education GR provides and can more easily use this information to choose equipment specific for me. I'll take education over opinion every chance I get. Thanks for taking the time to educate us.
When Jay made reference to one speaker for Danny's upgrades and Amirs one speaker for subjective review I thought does this kid have no common sense. Sorry for the bluntness , but come on man !
in-correct. I made in reference to how Danny criticized Amir for not listening in stereo for his reviews and only relying on measurements and I criticized Danny for not listening in stereo for his design work process and only replying on measurements *for upgrade kits only. I don't want this mixed up with his actual DIY Kits, those he does heavy listening and R&D* Danny responded obviously that he doesn't need to listen to confirm because he has been doing this for a long time and experience has built him a repeatable outcome. In which I replied that I believe him and respect that process and experience he has built.
@@Jayiyagi I understand Danny's point to be, If you know from vast experience that stereo image issues are a direct result of smearing in low grade, sluggish components, there is no need to design an upgrade kit to fix imaging problems, since by improving the parts, that is a given. Therefore, the network can be designed to improve response curve and parts selection only. If the performance and quality of network components is unknown, then I can see how testing one speaker to assess stereo performance is a problem. Congratulations on your Typhons, I watched the whole video from the show, clearly you did a great job. They look really good.
@@Jayiyagi Those are two different scenarios they are not the same. One is a upgrade and the other is a review. When doing a upgrade for a flat frequency response all you need to do is measure the speaker you dont need to listen to it because the objective is making its response flat, this is the reason you only need one speaker to measure for a flat frequency response. Amir is doing a REVIEW. Does he measure in his reviews? Yes but its still a REVIEW nonetheless. When doing a review one needs to have a pair of speakers as the objective in any audio review is to see how a pair of speakers will sound like in stereo. I dont know any audiophile reviewer that only listens to one speaker instead of a pair when doing a review. That right there is a RED FLAG. Its also ironic because you give great praise to the LGK's while Amir trashes them, another red flag.
Everyone who follows Amir’s cult should take that site with a grain of salt. Amir is knows as a cancer to the real audio professionals in the business. Amir and his cult is a complete joke.
Jay is just starting out in this industry so I think it's understandable he'll have many misunderstandings in his journey. That's the difference between a youtuber and an engineer with decades of experience
@@michaelj.4187 well if you would prefer to have your speakers designed by a youtuber with no engineering background, then go right ahead.... Maybe the release will cure your abusive attitude.
Hey Danny. Just something I’ve always wondered about. Which crossover components are you changing to get the phase relationship between the drivers aligned better? Like if you find that a 2-way speaker that comes in has a 60-80° phase mismatch, what parts or area do you change to help fix that? I’ve always wondered since I heard you mention it a long time ago. Thanks.
Yes, I get what you are saying, I had made many speakers, some good and others not, parts do have an impact . I did not have your skill and years ago I found a pair of Vandersteen 5 a used for 4000, there is no way I could have made something better for twice the price. I also had some old Maggie’s 3.5 , so strange that they would send that out with so many flaws. Some day I will try to deal with the problems. 😅
Good explanations. Although, personally, I believe that you've done a good job explaining all that stuff in the individual videos. I've learned a ton of information here.
I liked the explanation and it makes perfect sense. You have a RUclipsr presence, but predominantly you have an audio company that has been around for a long time, and all that goes with that including delivering on what you promise, production schedules, project timelines and so on, so the inefficiency of doubling back and redundantly reproving your work of many years, doesn't need to be done. I watch your videos and operate on the assumption that with you having a well established reputation and business, chances are real good we can trust what you say to be true without debate. It was good to hear the explanation on how you measure. I won't pretend to know how to do what you do with measuring bass and tying that close proximity measurement into the rest over 200 Hz, that was over my head, but would like to learn. The measurements for decay, ringing and phase shift I'd like to learn more about as well, but you're right that if you're working with the same woofer in the same box, there's a high likelihood that it'll exhibit similar behavior regardless and it's not easily manipulated to any great benefit without physical changes to the cabinet design or drivers. Good stuff Dan, and after years in different, non-audio industries, the same problem with explaining what's already been established, can be exhausting.
Are there really industry standards? There seem to be some sets of measurements that many use (both manufacturers and reviewers) and some are very similar but not entirely identical. To be able to replicate measurements the exact measurement criteria needs to be duplicated and almost cloned to be able to determine the accuracy of the original set of published data. You could be very close but close is only good for horseshoes and hand grenades. So that’s an issue. If I take a set of measurements from Person X they might use a set of measuring protocols and you can compare all the measurements of Speakers A, B, C….. because they were done using the same measurement protocols. However if Person Z measures those same speakers there will likely have discrepancies between the protocols of the two different individuals performing the test. So it’s possible Person X and Person Z may have recorded or experienced different results, responses and reactions. All the best speakers use excellent drivers, well designed crossovers with quality parts and well built cabinets properly built and assembled with good manufacturing practices. In this forum by Danny at GR-Research we are able to see what happens when the market causes manufacturers to cut corners and the consumer is not getting what they assume they are buying. So Danny shows what happens when those products come into his shop. The consumer benefits because the curtain is pulled away and consumers and owners can see what their money bought and why they aren’t satisfied with their products. Thanks Danny.
I don't have any preexisting bias towards or against GR-research - in my opinion this was a great response to Jay's video. No excuses, blaming, insults, just wholesome clarification towards misconceptions/misunderstandings, which happen!
I have wondered, in lieu of an anechoic chamber, if a speaker outside can be taken outside, away from buildings or on a flat roof, to measure the bottom 200Hz?
Everyone has YAMAHA studio speakers in their home studio. the white driver ones. Also, KRK with the yellow cones, it would be interesting to see what makes them tick.
Once you have the speaker flat enough, do you hear how it sounds and do some super fine adjustments? Like changes that don't make any significant difference but makes it just sound "better". Like a bit more spacial sound or instrument "separation" or a sweeter voice sound. Other than that, it's hardly any different in general frequency response. Just saying, cos this is what I do. It sounds different in appeal while sounding nearly identical. To me this is important and about the most difficult stage (adding my own artistic flair) and making a good sound into a great sound.
I guess that question regarding working with just one speaker has some merrit in a case if the drivers in two speakers of a pair have some differences. To be on a safe side it would be better to measure and compare both speakers of a pair to make sure they are identical.
Agreed, there may be some variance, but what would he do? Custom design a crossover for each? I'm pretty sure he would upon request and with his time compensated for.
@@dannyrichie9743 Occasionally that difference could be quite significant. And one day you might even receive a speaker with somewhat damaged driver (let's say with a shorted turn(s) in voice coil).
If you improve a speaker, it is very interesting to compare to the original to hear how much improvement the are. An improvement may be so small that it hardly matters to you. Measurement is one thing, but you also have to listen to the speaker. Comparing with something is also a great way to determine how well the speaker performed.
Yeah. I really want to read a benefit not only by imagination while spending money to a likely person and hoping for a better sound, but by a (semi/blind) A/B test before and after updates the speakers! Just to get the likelyness factor out of equation and get more yield/return out of the statements.
Experience in designing equipment gives the designer knowledge enough to not have to hear everything. Just as you know from experience that if you put gloves on in cold weather, your hands will warm-up. And the designer who made the gloves didn’t need to test them to determine how much, and what type of insulation to put into each glove, that is already known from previous research. They’re is nothing magical or special about speaker design that makes it different.
@@cablebrain9691 Then I wonder why there are so many bad speakers out there from different brands! Some factories often make speakers with less good sound and quality even if they cost a lot of money. You see this on this channel how many bad speakers are made.
That difference between capacitors... Did you ever try to come up with a measurement method to show a difference in impulse reproduction? Would be really interesting if you could show that smearing due to stored energy on a scope.
Good explanation Danny. I like your approach to design. The thing that sticks a little for me is why the big companies don't design correctly in the first place. I understand they may use cheaper components to hit a price point. What I don't get is big phase and frequency response anomalies. It would be interesting to hear what Klipsch, Focal, etc., say about your changes. Moreover, if they mess up crossovers so much what makes us think the drivers will be properly designed?
I think you may find that some of that reasoning is how they want to voice their speakers. In some cases I think this is correct, there are speakers out there ( like some English models ) that don't measure all that well, have thin walls and nil bracing. All those points are logical to in designing speakers, yet some do not include in their models. Dramatically changing a loudspeaker in any way will change the sound. It could sound better but different, but then that is subjective so there are no rights or wrong.
Manufacturers design and build with a specific target cost in mind. Changing out a part here and there could significantly add to the overall cost while not making a significant (enough) audible change to justify the increased price point. What I have not seen anyone mention is that in this video Danny admits that the majority of his customers are sending in budget speakers and that sometimes the "upgrades" are as expensive as the speakers. So the real question is upgrade audible to justify the cost of the "fix"? And according to Danny (in this video's comments), if it's too expensive to have customers send both speakers in and the upgrade often costs more than the speakers, why not just buy or recommend a more suitable pair of speakers? Because Danny is a business and uses his "not a reviewer" videos to push people to buy his products. Not saying he isn't knowledgeable or a competent speaker designer but I don't see any of this as something done out of the kindness of his heart.
@@jamesmichael900 Danny isn’t forcing people to upgrade. He’s pretty straightforward about the cost vs value. Sometimes a simple part change (same value) can make a big difference. Anyone can do that and get the parts from somewhere else. One nice thing that Danny does is when you buy caps from him they’re closely matched with the measurement written on the caps. Go elsewhere and you’re either stuck with manufacturer tolerances (10-20%) or paying extra for matched caps.
Hello Danny, with your experience of many speakers, is there a decent bookshelf speaker under $500 that is well made and sounds great, that may need only minor inexpensive tweeking that you would recommend?
Okay. so companies are spending so much time and effort using anechoic chambers etc. why are they measuring so badly and ringing based on your tests? I mean they go through all that time, money and effort and then use inferior parts which compromises the sound. So either Danny's tests are obsolete, or maybe big name companies are not as professional as we think they are. Based on Danny's tests, quality parts and listener feedback, including Amir's positive review on a GR speaker upgrade, I have to start thinking that "some" these big name manufacturers are cutting corners to make more profit. I think it's good that Jay was honest, but now I would like him to send you a pair of his new CSS speakers for review and we can see how Danny can improve them :)
Corporate method: engineering designs it then the consumer product is nothing like the design. It’s the marketing department’s responsibility to cut costs.
@@pedrodepacas4335 On the one hand I understand this and gear needs to be affordable, on the other hand don't charge people exorbitant prices and try to make ridiculous profit margins. Greed, greed and greed is the answer.
Hi Danny.. Can you do a video on why you prefer Air Core coils even on the LF (woofer) section of the XO? All I know is that they give better clarity, but at the expense of relatively Higher DCR; which can affect the amp interaction, etc.. Plus they are massive when you need bigger values. If the XO is Outboard, it kinda mitigates that I guess..
We use lamented I core inductors from US Coils in three way designs where the lower woofer doesn't play over 200Hz. Those types of coils are just not what we would pick for anything passing a signal from the midrange up.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks Danny.. How about 7” or 8” midbass drivers that can linearly XO anywhere from 1k-2.5kHz? I mean for a 2-way design.. Is it time for a large Foil Inductor for that kind of app?
@@rickg8015 A good quality air core inductor is the way to go. For those applications we also at least use a 16 gauge air core inductor. Stepping up to a foil inductor is an option that will also make a subtle improvement for an additional cost.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thanks again Danny.. So for a 2-way, when using a largish AirCore for the midbass driver, you just take into account its relatively higher DCR, and factor that in, in the overall XO design..
@@rickg8015 DCR is hardly a factor. It only effects the signal below 200Hz or so. Going from a 12 gauge to a 14 gauge reduces the bottom end (first octave or so) by about 1/20th of a db. Going from 14 gauge to 16 gauge will reduce that region by another 1/20th of a db.
Hi Danny, Could you explain 'octave' as it relates to your discussion near the end of the video and some other videos. I am familiar with octave as the 'doubling of a musical note' but I think that you are using it in a different context. Yes/no?
I know Danny already answered, but to help tie it more clearly to "musical notes". 440Hz = the A above middle C, or A4. 220Hz = A3, 110Hz = A2, 55Hz, etc. Same on the way up as well. A doubling/halving the frequency is always an octave above/below.
Terrific video/response Danny, great job keeping it professional. I had hoped Jay had gained some maturity from that silly video he made a while ago but he still has some learning to do. His recent video was a thinly veiled continuation of that same mindset.
suggesting that you should listen to a pair of speakers (which is exactly what danny said for reviews) for design work does not make me immature and as I have said in my video, I am being honest and sharing what I saw and heard. but I agree, I have much to learn and will always learn.
@@Jayiyagi Its your attitude and know it all persona that needs working on. I fully agree with the above post . Get off your high horse would be a good start
I don't agree with Jay. But I think he is trying to be fair. I don't think it's fair (or mature for that matter) to attack him because he raises some questions.
Danny, the Lone Star Audio Fest is fast approaching, Jun 2-4 2023 at the Embassy Suites Galleria in Dallas, TX. Are you going to put up an exhibit? If you are then I will get a room. I’m going there anyway since I live in Allen, a 30 minute drive. I’d be excited to hear your latest product the LGK 2.4
Danny, I am always amazed at your composure when dealing with misunderstandings. You are a true Southern gentleman, and your patience is amazing.
I really am not sure why Danny is wasting his time on an amateur petty guy like Jay. Now that he is looking to cash in with CSS audio, Danny is his primary competitor. It is not hard to nail down the motives of that guy's videosm
That was a really low answer. Danny has his niche and Jay his. Colleague and competitor, in a civil manner. How would gain on being a a-hole? Drama for the audience? Dog fight?
@@wa2368 I don't want either CSS or gr-research to do badly. That is no good for anybody. They can Inspire each other to both improve products and reduce prices, or not. But if only one of them were to exist, there ain't no way that's going to happen, and consumers will be the losers.
Your patience and positivity is commendable when trying to continue to educate on these topics that come up repeatedly.
A very clear and logical, measured response from a true master of his craft
Now that is the professional, patient, mature way to reply to concerns of reviewers/customers! Thanks, Danny, you are a treasure of the dyi audio industry
I have a feeling if Danny ran for mayor of his town he would have no problem winning
I'd vote for him. He can take criticisms, explain himself and agree to disagree at times of differing opinions.
I was totally blown away by the improvements in the RP600M with the kit and what really blew me away was the sound staging and especially the depth of the sound stage and the improved presence in the mid-range and the detail up in the highest. It was a lot of fun to do. Made a big difference. Didn't cost a ton of money. Totally a win-win-win. I would love to see Jay experience what I did by sending in a cheap speaker doing the upgrade and then making the comparison.
I understand the points being made about maybe criticizing the process, but unless you are able to go through the process and hear the differences yourself, then you are really just making assumptions.
The other thing is that doing these upgrades is a load of fun and it's really had me go off on my own on working on some other speakers and building amplifiers and that's really what I think Danny is all about with this endeavor.
I like how Danny composed himself in his response. Jay is still an apprentice in this field to say the least and some humility wouldn’t go amiss.
Noticeably significant speaker improvement is a combination of a LOT of different individual relatively minor or "subtle" improvements, which then combine all together into a MAJORLY noticeable improvement overall, from the way the overall speaker sounded before doing ANY improvements on it at all.
Everything Danny is saying here, I totally agree with because I've experienced these exact same things in my own speaker modifications over the decades... And I've improved literally hundreds of speakers already, at least as a hobby... I don't have a business, but I love to experiment with speakers anyway.
You sound way more composed, respectful and calm in this video. Best wishes.
As someone who's spent close to 30 years geeking out on audio - studied audio engineering & electronics, built speakers, etc... and checked out many of the 'audiophile' youtube channels; Danny is the real deal.
@@asterixx6878 Fraud?? Ok Karen 😆
110% agree with your approach (speaking as an acoustician). Great video.
@Danny Richie - You are a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ Class Act!!! You and your Team at GR Research have made incredible contributions to our understanding as to how impactful even subtle cabinet, crossover, wiring and equipment alterations can improve our listening experience….and I am pleased to say, I am a beneficiary of the information you have freely and generously shared via your RUclips channel. Thank you so much!
Your patience and your teaching abilities are remarkable thank you for your time I've just learned so much just watching your Channel about Acoustics frequency response crossovers networking is what Giver drivers do and how to change things and it's just really opened my eyes up to A Whole New World roof treatments and everything just incredible thank you
Danny, you just talk a lot of sense. Kudos to you and the work you do. Don't stop.
Very well thought out explanation. Seems like just a few are capturing this relatively obvious info. Thanks.
its like jay still thinks danny may be a charlatan
As a viewer I loved both of your videos. Really helps the community to understand when you both explain your perspectives.
I think its positive that people can try and clarify misunderstandings without abusing others then maybe, agree to disagree.
You know what you are talking and you share it with all of us, bravo.
Love how Danny tames all these misconceptions to the audience . I have watched every single video of Danny's from years. I must say, i admire and respect the way he handles situations where people accuse him of doing something wrong. Its very respectable and shows the power of knowledge and knowledge sharing.
I wish some day i could work for you, instead of with you. Because there is so much to learn from you, not jst about speakers but also about "perceived perspectives" too. Cheers from India.
There are some terrific explanations of why you do what you do in this video. Keep it up man!
HAHA!! I was waiting for this video, didn't think it would be up so soon :)
Hey Danny! Thank you for the response and clarification. I love the fact that you actually take criticisms and turn it into a learning experience because that's not something everyone can do so Kudos to you once again.
Few clarifications from my video:
1. You mentioned splicing in the frequency response which is what I said in my video and I think there was a bit of misunderstanding there, I said "that's fair" which means I don't have problems with the way you do your measurements. I was just reporting the "Why" you do the measurements the way you do (which you explain here again) So no problems there.
2. of course you don't measure 2 speakers when doing design work, Absolutely. But you certainly listen to a stereo pair when doing design work as you do with your kits all the time *but not with your upgrade kits* (which is true and is what I reported)
I never made that criticism that you don't measure 2 speakers, it was more in reference to how you *don't really listen to your upgrade kits* to get all the intangible things down perfectly with heavy listening test *that you do on your own DIY Kits.* Which again, as I said, "only rightfully so because your products comes first." 9:35 somewhat explains that you don't need to do the same listening tests because it is repeatable and you've done it multiple times before. Makes sense, got it.
That was the main issue I had but now I have an answer. Honestly speaking, I don't I resonate with the "repeatability" part as much from my experience, as the crossover parts also seemed to sound different in interaction with different drivers used. Kind of like how you know the sound of X amplifier but then it doesn't sound good with every speaker. You obviously know the drivers you use in your kits very well and know it interacts well with the parts you use but I'm not sure if that is a "repeatable" phenomenon with other brand speakers with different drivers like a "one fit all solution"
3. I'm with you on solving "actual" problems.
4. 20:00 Mark - Holly crap that explains so much. I was not told this and I don't know your pre-amp so no wonder! 23:22 Cmon Danny! Why else would I keep asking to hear it without the subs ! haha
Okay 1, 3 and 4 we're good.
#2. This is where experience comes in. I not only know from experience what effect certain parts are going to have, but I have to know how those effects are going to match with different drivers. A lot of things have no adverse effect. For instance going from an iron core inductor to an air core inductor. The the audible differences are the same regardless of the woofer. The same is true for things in the signal path like binding posts, steal nuts, wire, and connectors. There are however, instances where different capacitors work better with certain tweeters. For instance I wouldn't use an Aluminum foil cap on a Focal tweeter. I have to make sure that I know that the parts I am using in an upgrade will match well with the drivers being used. Experience, experience.... Also, if a built out a a pair of every speaker I design an upgrade for, burn them in, listen to them for weeks, and try to tweak every last bit of perfection out of them then that would be a really expensive upgrade. Most of the stuff I have to design new crossovers for already had issues. Some of them have massive issues. So just solving those problems and upgrading the parts quality to the level of the drivers is a significant upgrade, and if I can do it proficiently then it can be an inexpensive upgrade for the customer.
@@dannyrichie9743 All I have to say to that is R.E.S.P.E.C.T it is funny though because my only criticism to you in that video was that you don't listen to your upgrade kits like you do with your own products but funny enough aren't we on the same point of view on that one? *That you gotta always listen* That is what I think we agreed and saw eye to eye. *Now I realize you are saying that you have done this for such a long time that you have it all down like muscle memory... I believe you and that is very very respectable.* I also have no problem with you spending less time on your upgrade kits VS you own products, that's understandable as I've stated in my video.
I'm not sure why this video has so many negative comments especially towards Jay. The videos Jay made while at GR Research were positive along with making a few valid points. The response video by Dannie also clears a lot of this up.
Both of you guys are awesome and thank you guys for sharing your passions with the rest of us audio whackadoos
@@JayiyagiThat guy is not in the business of micromanaging every cheap speaker sent into him. I still don’t think you get what he is saying. He’s taking a potato and turning it into a baked potato with cream cheese and chives. He’s not trying to turn the potato into a porterhouse with a side of asparagus for $12 L O L
@@veroman007 yes and I agreed that he should be and does spend more time on his own DIY Kit products... rightfully so...
Excellent information and very well presented. I learned a lot from this video. With old ears and damaged hearing I'm not capable of discerning small incremental audio improvements but I do realize that most are 'directionally correct' from a design standpoint. And I certainly support the concept of a project that provides hands-on learning and development. Well done.
An excellent response Danny. You explained and contextualised and clarified beautifully.
Great response Danny, appreciate your work and thanks for your support of senior games and your gentility .
This is one of the best videos you've ever done.
Especially great or the naysayers who say things like, "then why did speaker company X design it that way, if they could have done if your way?". "Are you saying you know better than company X?".
Especially helpful were when you stated, that having big phase problem at the crossover, is not a matter of voicing the speaker. It is ALWAYS a problem. Or the problem with stored energy, or unbraced cabinet, or bad off axis response, etc, etc.
Those things are bad speaker design., they are not personal preference.
Danny a true pro all the work he does surpasses nearly all the work done by the other speaker makers
You don’t have a clue, what a stupid statement.
I love both channels equally, but yours is the one that makes me want to go back to school to build my own speakers.
Jay could have approached this more professionally. I watched his video. Gotcha journalism. You guys are now supposed friends so he could have asked you for a follow up discussion, instead of taking your video clip out of context.
I could be wrong but I suspect that cheap parts are used in speakers because the bean counters get involved and figure out that they can save a buck or two
Hi Danny,
You covered a lot of important topics in this video. At about 16:30 into it, you began addressing the topic of spatial imaging and
some of the factors that influence spatial cues. Getting these factors right requires listening to the stereo pair to make the correct adjustments. My son used to play a game of having me guess whether a vintage recording was recorded using a acoustic horn ( e.g. - Edison's "Mary had a little lamb" or the earliest recordings of Rhapsody in blue ( 1920s); or a crystal mic ( 1930s); or electronic mic ( 1940s), etc. There are some differences that are subtle, and some are quite evident. It's amazing how much of what we understand of high fidelity starts at the proper gathering of the signal and ends with speakers properly dispersing them into the listening environment. Thank you for another informative and fun lesson !
Man your a passionate audiophile professional who helps even the new commers and experts know you comitment to atempt o reproduce the original irst gneration sound recording without any added room accoustic anomallies and make the given product your chalengd to improve due to manufacturers conomoc cutbacks due to comptition. I appreciate your passion. Best wishes i can see you love the chalenges, bothe electro magnetic or just darn write mechanical udesired cab an driver resonances . God bless you my son. Kanaris from Cyprus far Easten Europe avid follower of your seminars thanks 🙏🏻
Great video Danny as always , cheers 🥂
Love both your and Jay's perspectives. The fact that you treat each other's opinions and observations with respect and an open ear (and mind ) is something other reviewers should make note of and aspire to.
Excellent, professional, gentlemanly video that said everything that needed to be said. Jay still has a lot to learn, but he shows a lot of promise.
I encouraged Jay in the beginning but he turned into a bonehead.
people just need to use their own discernment regarding what resonates with them...I appreciate Danny and Jay's input and find it all valuable...thanks, guys...
thanks GR-Research for the reminder about filtering out sub-bass from bookshelvers, fortunately my Vaf Research SW2's can do that filtering with a high pass out, got an immediate improvement in sound.
I think Jay is being honest and objective. I have built a bunch of GR's speakers, including 2 pairs of NX-Treme's. The lack of bottom end is not simply a filter situation. I ran my NX-Treme's for over a year without a filter and that was always the most disappointing aspect of the speakers. So many woofers, yet very little bass. I even have 2 pairs of triple OB subs and STILL not enough bass. I had to add 2 rythmik sealed subs to get any punch. That said, the OB bass did open my eyes to how smeared bass is with most speaker designs. That punch comes at a cost. The bass, while not as pronounced as I would like, is extremely fast and detailed. After owning this system for a few years the bass in other systems usually bothers me for it's lack of speed and detail. The mids and highs on the NX-Treme's are among the best I've ever heard.
For the most part, I agree with what Danny has said in this video (other than the bass). I do think there is a huge difference between speaker design and a speaker review. Everyone who is paying attention knows that Amir at ASR is a joke. However, I do still think there is still a little something to the criticism about not listening to 2 speakers with these design upgrades. You made some specific mentions of a few speakers where the speakers had obvious problems - phase issues, resonances, etc. For those issues I would agree that a single speaker is enough. However, for other, more subtle issues I feel like an actual listening session with 2 speakers could make a big difference. In the same way that you might try several different amps in a system, or even speaker or power cables - the same should be true of crossover parts. You might know that a sonicap is going to be cleaner than a cheap cap that is put into the speaker from the factory - but how do you know that particular brand of cap is really the best choice for that speaker? To do this however, a customer would have to ship 2 speakers and it would involve a lot of listening tests and iterative changes. It's just not really feasible - it would be too expensive. I think you are able to make positive changes, but just not necessarily getting the *best* you could out of a speaker without doing actual listening. Is that fair?
Subsonic what you have described is just the way OB speakers are. They will never imo be the same as a box speaker for obvious reasons. OB does have bass but it's not percussive / impactful bass. Subs are really the only option and you don't want them to play up to high? It wouldn't be feasible for Danny to listen to every set of speakers, so he's just making an educated decision what would be best?
Amir does not 'review' speakers. He give a short subjective view of what the speaker sounds like tonally, which is better with 1 speaker. Tonality flaws, mismatched drivers will show itself more easily with 1 speaker. He doesnt review anything, you dont hear terms like 'musicality' 'speed' 'dimensionality' in his subjective portion. How potentially big the soundstage will be on a speaker can be all seen in the data, it really depends on how you translate it to your advantage. Its sure way better than some random guy telling you "man, the soundstage on these speakers are crazy" for you to bring it to your room to find it meh.
Thank you for your comments, first of all.
As for your question...."but how do you know that particular brand of cap is really the best choice for that speaker? To do this however, a customer would have to ship 2 speakers and it would involve a lot of listening tests and iterative changes. It's just not really feasible - it would be too expensive. I think you are able to make positive changes, but just not necessarily getting the best you could out of a speaker without doing actual listening. Is that fair?"
The answer is simply, experience. Having done this for years I know what types of components work well or match well with certain drivers. Keep in mind, I am fixing problems, making improvements, and trying to do so with as low of a cost as possible. Building out a pair of something, burning them in, listening for weeks and making any further tweaks would make those upgrade real expensive.
@@dannyrichie9743 That's in effect what I was trying to say. What I was hopefully articulating was that you are able to get 80-90% of the best out of a speaker by only getting one speaker - all of it better than the way it was. To get that last 10-20% you would really need to spend a huge amount of time really listening with a bunch of different components - all burned in. It would take far too much time to be financially feasible, and the way you do it gets you a big improvement at the lowest cost.
@@-MarkWinston- you can't measure soundstage with data.
Considering what seems to have transpired here, I think Danny’s response is incredibly restrained, and even compassionate. He could have been a lot harsher, and yet he couched everything in friendly terms, and explained the facts simply and calmly. Jay, I love you man, but not a fan of how all this went down. I hope the whole “designing your own speakers” venture isn’t going to change you too much. 😏
I've pretty much had enough of Jay who doesn't really have many years in experience and has zero technical knowledge.
Good work Danny. Bought your Dynaudio Specia 40 kit and the sound was incredible. What a value as an upgrade.
Then you just ruined a fantastic speaker. If you don’t like the sound then sell it and buy something that sounds good to you.
I am quite impressed listening to your lgk on youtube- wish I could demo them live here in Sydney Australia .
From my amateurish and limited, speaker and crossover design experience, when I watch Jay's video, I understood that Jay was out of his skill set. What Jay does and what Danny does are intrinsically, quite different. Sure there is overlap but Jay was taking his commentary too far into the design realm where he lacks capability. (And it showed.)
Absolutely!
Jay does not understand a lot of things, he is just an influencer.
I would buy a pair of CSS Typhons, just so I could send them to Danny to berate and upgrade.
Zero Fidelity has recently done a review
I can tell you on the recording end , say on the drums, there is usually room mics away from the drum set that adds depth. A speaker smearing a subtle sound like that can ruin the effect the recording engineer was trying to accomplish.
Thank you! You are very correct.
I'd love a GR-R preamp filter you mentioned around 20:00 to cut the lower frequencies.
Nicely done. You let the facts speak for themselves. A gentleman would have consulted and aligned with you before releasing the video.
I also thought this. Normally, you’d run things by the person you’re doing a video on, not necessarily for their consent, but just to see if there were any glaring errors or misunderstandings (as there were in this case).
Danny you are a master of audio and your explanation of things is fantastic. They way you explain testing methods really indicates how people like amir just don’t quite understand the full picture.
I appreciated your measured and very well-articulated response to Jays video. I can appreciate Jays preference for a warmer sound: Having said that… I thought several of your speakers were missing that warmth I like (Opinion). I typically don’t use any EQ when I play music, I want it to sound like it is suppose to sound, like your sitting in front of the artist. I know I could buy a sub or a woofer stack and complete the overall sound signature, but at what cost? I would like to thank you for the Brute speaker you recently developed. I purchased a DIY kit and the knockdown cabinets from you and I was amazed at the design of these cabinets, they are very solid, very heavy cabinets. They are capable of producing a warm sound without sacrificing the mids and highs and without any EQ. I am really enjoying these speakers. I think this design emphasizes the points you made about the overall impact of frequency on Amp load. Again Thank you for all the years of learning and I strongly recommend listening to Justin Johnson on the Brutes😊 Keep on Keepin On!
Sometimes you need EQ to make is sound "natural" though.
Nothing you hear was recorded flat.
Amazing diplomacy. Well played sir.
I knew right away what some of your critiques of Jay's video would be. No question the upgrades are upgrades :).
Great discussions! Especially enjoyed the parts about listening to one speaker. When you play 2 speakers certain lower frequencies reinforce or “couple together” which usually adds a richer sound than the 1 speaker measurement. Sometimes it can help the floor bounce cancellations which you don’t see in a single speaker measurement. I can’t mention names, but I had extensive discussions with a speaker designer from a very famous British manufacturer who explained that they would design and measure a very good looking response speaker then set up a typical consumer room and have many people listen to the system. He said extensive changes to the crossover would be made until these listeners approved of the sound. The ending measurements didn’t look textbook great as some professional reviewers noted. (They spent all that $ on R&D and this is the best they can do?) As far as parts go if the current retail pricing scheme reflects 4X the price of the xover parts this gets pricey quick, let’s put in 14 $60 capacitors, foil inductors, etc. Have you seen the xover parts count in Krell speakers? Thanks for the easy to understand concepts of speakers to increase folks knowledge!
A very informative reply to Jay's video. We are all learning from this. Regarding base, I just assumed that Jay is a bass-head whose house moves with his music! ;-)
Thanks again Danny for another informative video. I have developed reliable design parameters which improves bass frequency output below rolloff limitations. I'll reach out again soon regarding phase shift questions. Cheers!
Thanks Danny, looking forward to more on the Brute!
Beard looks good on you bro, keep up the good work!
Danny great video response. Love all the upgrade kits you sell.
Gives alot of options to people who already own those speakers and dont wanna sell them to upgrade.
Exactly the points i made on jays threads. well done as usual. the pre amp settings was your bad tho. wink. you really laid this out precisely. this myth that speaker designers intended to create big lumpy freq response graphs needed to be killed again.
Jay is doing his utmost best in building his channel and sound reproduction knowledge. Kudos to him. Like so many of us have done, Jay is now experiencing the early stages of the Dunning-Kruger effect. That is absolutely normal considering where he is at in his journey. But as some of his videos show, it’s also something important to be aware of - learn about this and keep it in the back of the mind throughout the journey.
This is one of your best videos. At least what I've seen. Good Job.
Should you always switch to a better terminal or better components on a speaker? No, not if the loudspeaker has too many problems in the frequency, then there is no point in doing so. This is where many people get it wrong
Busy day today Danny after Jay sprang that video. the comments Re: other big name manufactourers spending 1000's of hours in R&D and using Anechoic chmbers versus Gated time window was a bit irrelevant considering that despite tose resources and faciliries they still vome out with speakers that dont perform well. I'm still with you. in fact I was todayin my workshop making up some pure copper Crocodile clip / solid core copper wire jumpers to do on hew fly crossover mods. thanls for the inspiration
Completely Agree ! I also Filter out the super low frequencies from my equipment also. I don’t trust peoples opinions that look for low frequency instant gratification.
The shape of peoples ear varies significantly in both aesthetics and hearing frequency response. In short, big flat ears will hear differently from smaller cup ears that protrude from the sides of the head. A mold of different ear shapes and sizes and testing what frequencies are emphasized and deemphasized entering each uniquely shaped ear.
amazing that you have to explain this.
While I watch both, my ears are old and been through a lot. Speakers would probably sound different to me than either evaluators. I used to build audio equipment and GR provides me with a great deal of technical information which is more useful for decision making. Opinions listening will vary greatly. I appreciate the technical education GR provides and can more easily use this information to choose equipment specific for me. I'll take education over opinion every chance I get. Thanks for taking the time to educate us.
Experience is priceless...thanks Danny!
When Jay made reference to one speaker for Danny's upgrades and Amirs one speaker for subjective review I thought does this kid have no common sense. Sorry for the bluntness , but come on man !
needed to be said. he just couldnt figure out the difference?
in-correct. I made in reference to how Danny criticized Amir for not listening in stereo for his reviews and only relying on measurements
and I criticized Danny for not listening in stereo for his design work process and only replying on measurements
*for upgrade kits only. I don't want this mixed up with his actual DIY Kits, those he does heavy listening and R&D*
Danny responded obviously that he doesn't need to listen to confirm because he has been doing this for a long time and experience has built him a repeatable outcome. In which I replied that I believe him and respect that process and experience he has built.
@@Jayiyagi I understand Danny's point to be, If you know from vast experience that stereo image issues are a direct result of smearing in low grade, sluggish components, there is no need to design an upgrade kit to fix imaging problems, since by improving the parts, that is a given. Therefore, the network can be designed to improve response curve and parts selection only. If the performance and quality of network components is unknown, then I can see how testing one speaker to assess stereo performance is a problem. Congratulations on your Typhons, I watched the whole video from the show, clearly you did a great job. They look really good.
@@Jayiyagi Those are two different scenarios they are not the same. One is a upgrade and the other is a review. When doing a upgrade for a flat frequency response all you need to do is measure the speaker you dont need to listen to it because the objective is making its response flat, this is the reason you only need one speaker to measure for a flat frequency response.
Amir is doing a REVIEW. Does he measure in his reviews? Yes but its still a REVIEW nonetheless. When doing a review one needs to have a pair of speakers as the objective in any audio review is to see how a pair of speakers will sound like in stereo. I dont know any audiophile reviewer that only listens to one speaker instead of a pair when doing a review. That right there is a RED FLAG.
Its also ironic because you give great praise to the LGK's while Amir trashes them, another red flag.
Everyone who follows Amir’s cult should take that site with a grain of salt. Amir is knows as a cancer to the real audio professionals in the business. Amir and his cult is a complete joke.
Jay is just starting out in this industry so I think it's understandable he'll have many misunderstandings in his journey. That's the difference between a youtuber and an engineer with decades of experience
not buying into this comparison... one-dimensional voodoo...
@@michaelj.4187 No problem Jay
@@shughy1 yikes...thicker than a brick...oh my...sending you some love...
@@michaelj.4187 well if you would prefer to have your speakers designed by a youtuber with no engineering background, then go right ahead.... Maybe the release will cure your abusive attitude.
@@shughy1 Oh my...release the ego...
Hey Danny. Just something I’ve always wondered about. Which crossover components are you changing to get the phase relationship between the drivers aligned better? Like if you find that a 2-way speaker that comes in has a 60-80° phase mismatch, what parts or area do you change to help fix that? I’ve always wondered since I heard you mention it a long time ago. Thanks.
Danny is right for what he is doing 1 identical speaker is all he needs. Its different to looking at speaker interaction and various tests.
Yes, I get what you are saying, I had made many speakers, some good and others not, parts do have an impact . I did not have your skill and years ago I found a pair of Vandersteen 5 a used for 4000, there is no way I could have made something better for twice the price. I also had some old Maggie’s 3.5 , so strange that they would send that out with so many flaws. Some day I will try to deal with the problems. 😅
Good explanations. Although, personally, I believe that you've done a good job explaining all that stuff in the individual videos. I've learned a ton of information here.
I liked the explanation and it makes perfect sense. You have a RUclipsr presence, but predominantly you have an audio company that has been around for a long time, and all that goes with that including delivering on what you promise, production schedules, project timelines and so on, so the inefficiency of doubling back and redundantly reproving your work of many years, doesn't need to be done.
I watch your videos and operate on the assumption that with you having a well established reputation and business, chances are real good we can trust what you say to be true without debate.
It was good to hear the explanation on how you measure. I won't pretend to know how to do what you do with measuring bass and tying that close proximity measurement into the rest over 200 Hz, that was over my head, but would like to learn. The measurements for decay, ringing and phase shift I'd like to learn more about as well, but you're right that if you're working with the same woofer in the same box, there's a high likelihood that it'll exhibit similar behavior regardless and it's not easily manipulated to any great benefit without physical changes to the cabinet design or drivers.
Good stuff Dan, and after years in different, non-audio industries, the same problem with explaining what's already been established, can be exhausting.
Are there really industry standards? There seem to be some sets of measurements that many use (both manufacturers and reviewers) and some are very similar but not entirely identical. To be able to replicate measurements the exact measurement criteria needs to be duplicated and almost cloned to be able to determine the accuracy of the original set of published data. You could be very close but close is only good for horseshoes and hand grenades. So that’s an issue. If I take a set of measurements from Person X they might use a set of measuring protocols and you can compare all the measurements of Speakers A, B, C….. because they were done using the same measurement protocols. However if Person Z measures those same speakers there will likely have discrepancies between the protocols of the two different individuals performing the test. So it’s possible Person X and Person Z may have recorded or experienced different results, responses and reactions. All the best speakers use excellent drivers, well designed crossovers with quality parts and well built cabinets properly built and assembled with good manufacturing practices.
In this forum by Danny at GR-Research we are able to see what happens when the market causes manufacturers to cut corners and the consumer is not getting what they assume they are buying. So Danny shows what happens when those products come into his shop. The consumer benefits because the curtain is pulled away and consumers and owners can see what their money bought and why they aren’t satisfied with their products.
Thanks Danny.
It is realy clear as always. ❤
What do you think about the Yamaha practice of mounting dampers on the drivers or strategically behind bass drivers with no interior stuffing/coating?
I don't have any preexisting bias towards or against GR-research - in my opinion this was a great response to Jay's video. No excuses, blaming, insults, just wholesome clarification towards misconceptions/misunderstandings, which happen!
Those huge speaker cables always crack me up. How large is the wire inside the cabinet... audiophiles...
I have wondered, in lieu of an anechoic chamber, if a speaker outside can be taken outside, away from buildings or on a flat roof, to measure the bottom 200Hz?
I can measure a speakers lower range if needed.
Everyone has YAMAHA studio speakers in their home studio. the white driver ones. Also, KRK with the yellow cones, it would be interesting to see what makes them tick.
Once you have the speaker flat enough, do you hear how it sounds and do some super fine adjustments? Like changes that don't make any significant difference but makes it just sound "better". Like a bit more spacial sound or instrument "separation" or a sweeter voice sound. Other than that, it's hardly any different in general frequency response. Just saying, cos this is what I do. It sounds different in appeal while sounding nearly identical. To me this is important and about the most difficult stage (adding my own artistic flair) and making a good sound into a great sound.
Once again proves everything related to GR Research is Flawless
Who's Jay again?
Great stuff Danny!
I guess that question regarding working with just one speaker has some merrit in a case if the drivers in two speakers of a pair have some differences. To be on a safe side it would be better to measure and compare both speakers of a pair to make sure they are identical.
Agreed, there may be some variance, but what would he do? Custom design a crossover for each? I'm pretty sure he would upon request and with his time compensated for.
@@1byte4 ha
There can be some driver variances, but usually not enough to change the crossover design too much.
@@dannyrichie9743 Occasionally that difference could be quite significant. And one day you might even receive a speaker with somewhat damaged driver (let's say with a shorted turn(s) in voice coil).
If you improve a speaker, it is very interesting to compare to the original to hear how much improvement the are. An improvement may be so small that it hardly matters to you. Measurement is one thing, but you also have to listen to the speaker. Comparing with something is also a great way to determine how well the speaker performed.
Yeah. I really want to read a benefit not only by imagination while spending money to a likely person and hoping for a better sound, but by a (semi/blind) A/B test before and after updates the speakers!
Just to get the likelyness factor out of equation and get more yield/return out of the statements.
Experience in designing equipment gives the designer knowledge enough to not have to hear everything. Just as you know from experience that if you put gloves on in cold weather, your hands will warm-up. And the designer who made the gloves didn’t need to test them to determine how much, and what type of insulation to put into each glove, that is already known from previous research.
They’re is nothing magical or special about speaker design that makes it different.
@@cablebrain9691 Then I wonder why there are so many bad speakers out there from different brands!
Some factories often make speakers with less good sound and quality even if they cost a lot of money.
You see this on this channel how many bad speakers are made.
@@ford1546 It could be due to a variety of reasons, one being inexperienced designers.
Listening to only one speaker is like watching a 3D movie with one eye closed!
Bad comparison
@@rtth465 No it isn't.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Two different organs😂and technology. You only need one speaker for measuring if the drivers and everything else are the same
That difference between capacitors... Did you ever try to come up with a measurement method to show a difference in impulse reproduction? Would be really interesting if you could show that smearing due to stored energy on a scope.
HEAT ! ..Bring the heat .. lets go!! =)
Good explanation Danny. I like your approach to design. The thing that sticks a little for me is why the big companies don't design correctly in the first place. I understand they may use cheaper components to hit a price point. What I don't get is big phase and frequency response anomalies. It would be interesting to hear what Klipsch, Focal, etc., say about your changes. Moreover, if they mess up crossovers so much what makes us think the drivers will be properly designed?
I think you may find that some of that reasoning is how they want to voice their speakers. In some cases I think this is correct, there are speakers out there ( like some English models ) that don't measure all that well, have thin walls and nil bracing. All those points are logical to in designing speakers, yet some do not include in their models. Dramatically changing a loudspeaker in any way will change the sound. It could sound better but different, but then that is subjective so there are no rights or wrong.
Manufacturers design and build with a specific target cost in mind. Changing out a part here and there could significantly add to the overall cost while not making a significant (enough) audible change to justify the increased price point. What I have not seen anyone mention is that in this video Danny admits that the majority of his customers are sending in budget speakers and that sometimes the "upgrades" are as expensive as the speakers. So the real question is upgrade audible to justify the cost of the "fix"? And according to Danny (in this video's comments), if it's too expensive to have customers send both speakers in and the upgrade often costs more than the speakers, why not just buy or recommend a more suitable pair of speakers? Because Danny is a business and uses his "not a reviewer" videos to push people to buy his products. Not saying he isn't knowledgeable or a competent speaker designer but I don't see any of this as something done out of the kindness of his heart.
@@jamesmichael900 Danny isn’t forcing people to upgrade. He’s pretty straightforward about the cost vs value. Sometimes a simple part change (same value) can make a big difference. Anyone can do that and get the parts from somewhere else. One nice thing that Danny does is when you buy caps from him they’re closely matched with the measurement written on the caps. Go elsewhere and you’re either stuck with manufacturer tolerances (10-20%) or paying extra for matched caps.
Danny sounds like the guy with more experience and wisdom because he's done it a lot longer.
So many people have zero technical knowledge in something yet talk like they are experts. You see it all over social media...
Respect!❤
Hello Danny, with your experience of many speakers, is there a decent bookshelf speaker under $500 that is well made and sounds great, that may need only minor inexpensive tweeking that you would recommend?
Have you seen our kits?
@@dannyrichie9743 I saw them after I wrote that comment, thanks.
Okay. so companies are spending so much time and effort using anechoic chambers etc. why are they measuring so badly and ringing based on your tests?
I mean they go through all that time, money and effort and then use inferior parts which compromises the sound.
So either Danny's tests are obsolete, or maybe big name companies are not as professional as we think they are.
Based on Danny's tests, quality parts and listener feedback, including Amir's positive review on a GR speaker upgrade, I have to start thinking that "some" these big name manufacturers are cutting corners to make more profit.
I think it's good that Jay was honest, but now I would like him to send you a pair of his new CSS speakers for review and we can see how Danny can improve them :)
Corporate method: engineering designs it then the consumer product is nothing like the design. It’s the marketing department’s responsibility to cut costs.
@@pedrodepacas4335 On the one hand I understand this and gear needs to be affordable, on the other hand don't charge people exorbitant prices and try to make ridiculous profit margins.
Greed, greed and greed is the answer.
I love watching these audio channels. I just wish I had more disposable income. Lol.
Hi Danny.. Can you do a video on why you prefer Air Core coils even on the LF (woofer) section of the XO? All I know is that they give better clarity, but at the expense of relatively Higher DCR; which can affect the amp interaction, etc.. Plus they are massive when you need bigger values. If the XO is Outboard, it kinda mitigates that I guess..
We use lamented I core inductors from US Coils in three way designs where the lower woofer doesn't play over 200Hz. Those types of coils are just not what we would pick for anything passing a signal from the midrange up.
@@dannyrichie9743
Thanks Danny.. How about 7” or 8” midbass drivers that can linearly XO anywhere from 1k-2.5kHz? I mean for a 2-way design.. Is it time for a large Foil Inductor for that kind of app?
@@rickg8015 A good quality air core inductor is the way to go. For those applications we also at least use a 16 gauge air core inductor. Stepping up to a foil inductor is an option that will also make a subtle improvement for an additional cost.
@@dannyrichie9743
Thanks again Danny.. So for a 2-way, when using a largish AirCore for the midbass driver, you just take into account its relatively higher DCR, and factor that in, in the overall XO design..
@@rickg8015 DCR is hardly a factor. It only effects the signal below 200Hz or so. Going from a 12 gauge to a 14 gauge reduces the bottom end (first octave or so) by about 1/20th of a db. Going from 14 gauge to 16 gauge will reduce that region by another 1/20th of a db.
Hi Danny, Could you explain 'octave' as it relates to your discussion near the end of the video and some other videos. I am familiar with octave as the 'doubling of a musical note' but I think that you are using it in a different context. Yes/no?
The first octave we hear is 20Hz to 40Hz. The second is 40Hz to 80Hz. The third is 80Hz to 160Hz.... and so on.
@@dannyrichie9743 Thank you. I see it now.
I know Danny already answered, but to help tie it more clearly to "musical notes". 440Hz = the A above middle C, or A4. 220Hz = A3, 110Hz = A2, 55Hz, etc. Same on the way up as well. A doubling/halving the frequency is always an octave above/below.
@@ThePurpleSnork Thank you. :)
Terrific video/response Danny, great job keeping it professional. I had hoped Jay had gained some maturity from that silly video he made a while ago but he still has some learning to do. His recent video was a thinly veiled continuation of that same mindset.
suggesting that you should listen to a pair of speakers (which is exactly what danny said for reviews) for design work does not make me immature and as I have said in my video, I am being honest and sharing what I saw and heard.
but I agree, I have much to learn and will always learn.
@Jay's iyagi We all have a lot to learn, hence why we are constantly improving our rigs.
@@Jayiyagi Its your attitude and know it all persona that needs working on. I fully agree with the above post . Get off your high horse would be a good start
I don't agree with Jay. But I think he is trying to be fair.
I don't think it's fair (or mature for that matter) to attack him because he raises some questions.
@@Tim_MacLellan My opinion is not based on just one video. Its merely an observation of Jay over the past few years.
Danny, the Lone Star Audio Fest is fast approaching, Jun 2-4 2023 at the Embassy Suites Galleria in Dallas, TX. Are you going to put up an exhibit? If you are then I will get a room. I’m going there anyway since I live in Allen, a 30 minute drive. I’d be excited to hear your latest product the LGK 2.4
We are not exhibiting, but we do plan on driving down on Saturday to see everyone.