I'm just glad to be alive in the time of the great unity vs savannah debate. One day, when all the dust us settled, I'll be able to tell my grandchildren "I was there"
I’ve been riding BMX for 17 years only blading for one year. When I’m talking about my blade tricks… I call all my blade grinds the BMX name of an equal grind.. Blading is confusing when it comes to trick names. But X grind, and switch x grind is simple for savannah vs unity. In BMX. Would say alleyopp x grind to backwards grind to 180 out. 🤷🏾♂️ Great Blade Content and thanks for the SHIFT. VS SL SKY VIDEO. I just grabbed a pair of Skys from Carriers Skate Shop in Dallas, Texas 🤠
Haha good point about X grind! 😃👍🏻 Note: If that would have been the trick name then it would be: X (Unity) and Alley-oop X (Savannah). When backside then you would add BS to the name. Actually much more cool ❤😃🙌🏻✅
Well argued. I say we adopt it. The consistency is worth it. Only part that got missed on the historical naming is the convention about alley-oop *also* getting applied anytime your back was facing forward on the grind (like it mostly does in a savannah), not just the grind being "backward" conceptually. I think Arlo said he would have called them fakie grinds instead of alley-oop if he got to name them again. That way fakie can define the direction the body is facing and leave alley-oop solely for spin direction.
Historically speaking, that clip has merit and is accurate. However, it leaves off 6 other 270 variations with complex and contradictory names. Probably because those variations weren't invented yet, when the name Savannah was first used. Savannah (in the traditional sense: 270 backside alleyoop unity) makes sense until other 270 tricks were introduced and spins became directionally defined (truespin and alley-oop)
Agree with what we should adopt. That’s how we’ve done thing where I’m from since the 90s. My only exception is that you can’t zero spin in to a Savanah or Unity because you have to rotate 90 degrees. (Unless you approach perpendicularly) Great video though. 💪🏼💪🏼
@@RollMinnesota you just don’t call it anything when you spin 90 on to something. Thats just the mandatory rotation you would have to do to land the trick.
@@RollMinnesota yea, it would be fakie to savannah, fakie to unity. Or fakie savannah, fakie unity Ike you said. Same thing. Although I KNOW what someone is implying when they say zero [groove trick], I don’t think it’s logically consistent. And @misfit1347 I’d agree if that were the case going forward to a normal groove trick, but rolling backwards, not so much. You have to communicate the backwards approach somehow.
Wow great content! I miss skating so much my bones are not as easy to take any impacts anymore and body does not feel like rubber anymore. But thinking about going back I still have my Shima 3s Solomon Stiis and my last were Remz 2002 model. Damn how I miss it!
Agree. I had this same debate with friends 25 years ago when the tricks were developed in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Terminology: We called your favorite trick for 270 Savannah, or simply BS Savannah. We called Chris Haffys trick inspin Savannah. We called the zero variations for fakie Savannah, halfcab Savannah, fullcab Savannah, etc. The problem today is still the terminology. Inline skating: All respectable Legends of our sport, like Chris Edwards, and many others say the term Aggressive skating should be eliminated. The term was designed for failure by skateboard haters because eventually no one likes aggressive people. Aggresors are punished in the judicial system. So why would you call yourself an aggressive skater? Fishbrain: Tom Ahlqvist (Denmark) explained to me how Tom Fry (Australia) invented the name Fishbrain on one of their skate tours in the late 1990s. People on the tour thought it was a funny name, and it quickly became the established name in the industry. Today, it would be cool to re-name that trick.
been skating more than 20 years in Turkey and US. we used almost all same but trues savannah . U call it 270 FS Savannah . good video man !! We need to fix our namee !! 😅
That's what I would typically call it too, but for the system to be consistent it needs to eliminate alley-oop and truespin with grove tricks. 270 FS Savannah would imply still a spin away from the rail.
I may be wrong, but I think Acosta was trying to simplify his explanation in a video where he references the lead foot position as the easy way to tell the difference.. I've been thinking of it that way ever since. I agree with your analysis, good video.
This is great Butch as always. I’m a MN skater and frankly I never fully understood the difference between the two. Maybe it’s because both were tricks i tended to stay away from ha. My thought is this. I think it’s maybe the same conclusion you offer, but perhaps a simpler explanation (I am sure I’m missing something). I know you touched on it too, but I think of AO or true as soul tricks only. Grove tricks should be FS or BS. When landing on a soul, that right there dictates that you are completely parallel to the rail, ledge and would mean it’s a full 180 rotation. Being in your grooves means you’re perpendicular, so a 90 or 270, 450, etc spin. 90 has no word so FS or BS. I know you covered all that, but it’s the way I have always thought of it. Soul tricks = AO or True, groove tricks = FS or BS. Now the thing I never understood about U vs S was the foot placement. So I agree we should agree on one foot in front is unity and one in back is Savanah.
This is the best video on this topic. Didn't argue the history, but argued why "AO Unity" is inconsistent syntax in modern blading, 10/10. I don't really care what we call it, we just can't have the "AO" in there, so I'm pro-savannah. My little troll is to argue it should have been called "Citric Unity" all along. A Sav is a Unity with your legs crossed "the other way". We already have a term for that - Citric - a Citric Acid is an Acid with your legs crossed "the other way". So IMO, "Citric Unity" follows convention, doesn't break any rules (no one ever said "citric" was reserved for soul tricks, why would it need to be?), and it perfectly describes the trick with known terms. The only thing is no one likes it, but I think it's totally valid.
@@RollMinnesota or just call it "division" since the antonym for unite would be divide, as well as the duality for how much division this trick has caused among skaters 🤔😅
I think ao and true should refer to the direction of the spin as you said, and be applied to soul tricks beyond 180. So a 3 soul spun in the direction of an ao soul is an ao 3 soul. I dont like hardspin or hurricane since ao and true can describe the same trick a little more clearly
Always been a unity to me, but it makes sense that backfoot in front should have a different name. Either way, I don't care what you call it as long we never let rollerblading die.
This is the most important thing! I'm an English teacher and love grammar and the systems of language, so the discussion intrigues me. However, names are ultimately irrelevant as long as people can still communicate their ideas.
That's what I call them too, but what about the other 270 unity variations. That's where it completely falls apart, because Savannah was named before those variations were conceived. Now that they exist, along with alley-oop and truespin signifying spin direction, Savannah (270 alleyoop unit) is no longer coherent.
A savannah was and is like an AlleyOop TP except you turn your topside foot into the groove and thats the bottom line cause Aaron feinberg and Stone Cold said so. Side note AlleyOop is not the grind. AlleyOop is the spin.
forward: (to answer your maybe retorical questions) ....the trick from haffey is truespin unity (does not need to say frontside) .....the other trick from haffey is full cab tru savannah. .....there doesn't need to be consistency, same as sweatstance/kindgrind no mention of "mizou" .....farfignugen can be "full torque" but royale isn't "full backslide" .....etc etc etc (there are many exceptions that add simplicity and/or cultural relevance) Summary: There's no legit reason to single this out from other inconsistencies as mentioned like sweaty and kg. If you tried to wipe out every inconsistency it would be an inferior and long winded naming system. I think the real reason you made this video was to show your laced savannah up/across/down. My full take on this: A great topic but (unless I missed it) you didn't explain the likely linguistic explanations for why this occurred. Namely fewer syllables and better represents what is occurring (a fluid trick rather than a complicated trick). 1. The likely reason a 270 backside alloy-oop unity was named "Savannah" is b/c 12 syllables is too many. Even 270 backside savannah is 9 syllables which is way too many for such a smooth natured grind. The word savannah feels right linguistically b/c of the sounds and few syllables (more on this below) another ex: Fakie 270 alleyoop backside unity/savannah (14 syllables) vs full cab tru savannah (6 syllables) 2. You also didn't address whether or not truspin frontside or truespin royale is acceptable, which I believe it is. 270 frontside and 270 royale are fine too but in real life those tricks don't always add up to 270 spin. (more on this below regarding ramp skating and unique approaches) 3. The 3rd thing you failed to explain is that ao unity is uniquely named b/c it is distinct from other grove tricks. Alleyoop unity requires more spin than frontside/royale/farv/unity which all require a similar degree of spin. It is obviously a groove trick, but more closely resembles an alleyoop trick thus the naming ao (and truspin). There are other groove tricks with a spin resembling ao and truspin. ao/ts are the spin as much as the grind. There is generally a greater level of commitment required with truspin tricks, including tru frontside or royale. ao spin and tru spin are more about the feel than about the exact number of degrees turned or sole stance. It is afterall truSPIN. It's truspin (or alleyoop) even if your stance does not involve a sole or negative sole. 4. The 4th problem with your thesis is that to be consistent you are advocating to do away with sweatstance. You can't get rid of sweat stance (for topside Mizou) or kindgrind (ao ts miz) that would just be killing culture. As with savannah sweat stance 2 syllables instead of 4 (ts mizou) and kindgrind 2 instead of 6 (ao ts mizou) But it's not just about syllables, they are also just better names that better represents the tricks. Savannah should remain a stand-alone word for the same reasons sweatstance/kindgrind should remain: culture, fewer syllables, better represents fluidity required for the grind to be done well. Savannah and Tru Savannah should remain beautiful shorthand names for these backside unity tricks. Full cab savannah (5) and full cab tru savannah (6) are more eloquent than your (long winded) proposals. To recap, the trick in question can be grouped with alloyoop tricks b/c it's not like other fs/bs tricks. The exception is 270 frontside/270 royale which I believe can be label truspin. Or 270 backside which I believe can be labeled alleyoop backside (it is AO both in spin and in stance) (b/c all of these tricks feel like alleyoop/truspin I consider this a reference to the spin as much as the grind) It's simple....frontside versions are ao unity and tru untity....backside versions are savannah and tru savannah. Tru frontside/royale/farv are acceptable as well b/c these tricks are nothing like standard frontside/backside. The rule is that when a groove trick requires a technical spin into the grind they can be alleyoop and truspin.. 5. The 5th problem which your system is that it's not 270 on a ramp or certain street approaches. Using the numbered degree of spin onto grinds is a bad idea generally. A backside on a rail is 45-90, on a ramp is 180 (more on a ramp). Frontside on a ramp is 0-45 (less on a ramp) Tru frontside on a rail is
I appreciate your thoughts, but I have to disagree on many points here . . . I'll try to hit a few. First, you are right about the length and syllables; however, your example is exaggerated. Full cab true savannah (6 syllables) vs. Fakie 270 back savannah (7 syllables) is negligible. Also, even though most people don't/can't do them all, there are 16 different variations of unity and savannah to account for, and some of them get very problematic under the old system. For example, if true savannah is the backside version of a/o unity (90 degree rotation, back leg leading), then what will you call the 270 frontside version (trick #13 in my video)? Truespin alley-oop unity? That's illogical and inconsistent with the rest of blading. The system I proposed is 100% internally and externally consistent, with no ambiguity. It might cost an extra syllable or two (sometimes), but I think that's a fair trade for systematic coherence. A second point: how does a/o unity require more spin than a frontside or royale? Both feet and upper-body end-up facing the same direction (granted you have to cross legs), but it's still just 90 degrees. I guess angles are a bit different on ramps, but if you're carving into a grind, you should be close to riding parallel with the coping anyway. Again, the difference seems negligible: unless you are rolling straight up to stall, 270 royale vs 450 royale on a quarterpipe should be clear. Personally, I don't find this to be a strong counterargument. Another point, this doesn't affect sweatstance at all . . . I addressed that in the video with fishbrain and kindgrind. They act as nicknames for a specific variation without affecting the underlying system; unity and savannah create incongruities for otherwise established principles like what alleyoop and truespin signify and how groove tricks operate. If alleyoop unity is literally an alleyoop unity, why not call a front farv an alleyoop royale? If there's a truespin royale is there also an alleyoop royale . . . there probably should be for logical consistency. Finally, I'm not sure I understand your last point about switch and natural. There are a lot of tricks I'm better at "switch" because the spin is more natural. However, I'm not sure what that has to do with trick names . . . unless you are suggesting people call unnatural spins truespins, regardless of direction. If so, that's even more problematic; truespin should always imply a rotation away from the obstacle.
@@RollMinnesota "Fakie 270 back savannah (7 syllables)" ??? Even with "backside" shortened to "back" this is 10 syallables (not 7). Other examples: Your #11 is 9 syallables. Savannah is 3. Your #13 is 9 syallables. True spin unity is 5....true unity is 4 "No other h-block trick has an alleyoop or truespin version" Maybe true, but if I understand correctly, you are proposing to use Zero Spin. What other h-block trick uses the term "zero spin"??? none that I'm aware of. It seems you propose to use "zero spin savannah" and "zero spin backside savannah"? Why are you saying it's ok to use the term zero spin for unity, but not alleyoop and truespin? Please explain to me how there is "NO" consistency here: (AO) Savannah, Zero Spin Savannah, True Spin Savannah (backside versions) AO Unity............Zero Spin Unity..........True Spin Unity (frontside versions) Unity.......Fakie Unity.....270 Unity bs Unity, fakie bs Unity, 270 bs Unity Exactly what variations are hard to name with this system? The only example you give is #13 and that is easy, it's true spin unity. Being most like a p-star here is the layout for consistency: ao p-star....zero p-star..........true spin p-star ao unity.....zero spin unity....true spin unity It lines up perfectly, there's perfect consistency b/t the two very similar stances. Your error is in trying to draw a hard line b/t sole grinds and h-block grinds. This distinction is imaginary. -Some people do soyales like royales other people do them like ao sole. -A mistrial has just as much to do with a royale as it does a mizou. -Many budget tricks involving a sole are really h-block tricks with a mostly floating sole. -AO unity is closer to AO p-star than an AO negative p-star (of the 3 negative is the oddball not unity) There is no basis for limiting ao/ts to sole based only when they are accurate for groove tricks also. I don't understand your second point. First you say it's the same amount of spin then you admit it does require more spin. All you have to do to understand this is look at what tricks a new person learns first. 99% of people will learn frontside/royale/unity way before ao unity and that's legit proof if distinction. You don't see that distinction with sole base tricks, none of the 7 variations significantly stand out. (early ones are sole/mizou/makio/p-star and not a big deal to ease into mistrial/acid/torque sole) AO Unity stands out like a sore thumb from the other base groove tricks, closely resembles AO p-star. Likewise, what beginner is learning trusav before backside/backroyale/backunity? Maybe it's only 10-20 degrees different but in the real world (not theory) that makes it distinct. Why wouldn't the nickname argument apply to savannah? We don't say: topside makio, or topside mizou, or alleyoop topside mizou. LIkewise we don't say 270 backside alleyoop unity. The only time we use these technical words is in teaching. And, you can successfully say "270 backside alleyoop unity" to explain Savannah. But there is no advantage to say that (or 270 backside savannah) instead of "Savannah". There technical names are for teaching, not for print or vernacular What you are calling nicknames is actually the primary name. Assuming you believe Alleyoop refers only to the stance and not the spin then: Alleyoop Royale is a legit (technical) explanation for a Farv. (Yes the balance is typically very different, but AO sole balance is nothing like sole balance) If someone asked what is a torque...essentially AO backslide If someone asked what is pudslide...essentially AO fastslide If someone asked what is a switch/unnatural frontside....essentially AO frontside For the seasoned skaters who has well rounded skills: 270 royale is easier on a ramp than a box..but truspin royale is easier on a box than a ramp. You know this is true but you are stuck in your head counting degree of turn, instead of real world. I'm not arguing to do away with "270" altogether but alleyoop and truespin are often preferred. As stated, I thought you might not understand #6. The point of #6 is multifaceted. I can get back to that later 1. The syllables argument is legit. See above comparisons on #11 and #13 among others. 2. AO Unity is distinct from other (base) groove tricks and often more resembles AO p-star. (this includes not only additional spinning but also method of approach and the stance itself) 3. The reasons we have Savannah are identical to the reasons we have the other "nicknames". (reduce technical jargon and reduce syllables to aid vernacular & NBD rights/cultural relevance) I agree that my truespin frontside argument is not worth it. That could create legit confusion. But if there is confusion about Savannah then my crew growing up much be special. We were never confused about this.
There's another problem with this video, you can't UFS language. If you could, then all words would spell the way they sound. This video makes rollerblading more confused, not less. Here are all 16: Unity Backside Unity Fakie Unity Fakie Backside Unity 270 Unity 270 Backside Unity Fakie 270 Unity Fakie 270 Backside Unity AO Unity Savannah Zero Spin Unity Zero Spin Savannah True Spin Unity True Spin Savanah Full Cab Unity Full Cab Savannah Count the syallables and Say the names out loud. This is proper vernacular at work.
@@weliveonearth8012 First, I admit I miscounted the syllables in my example, but the number of syllables are still closely aligned to other, similar tricks . . . "fakie 270 back royale" is universally accepted but "fakie 270 back savannah" is too much? Next point: I think you're not seeing the inconsistency of the old system because you aren't accounting for all 16 variations of unity/savannah. For example, you called tick #13 truespin unity (back leg leading); however, there is also a 270 variation spinning away from the obstacle with the front leg leading (almost like a hurricane top acid). I couldn't land this one in my video, but in order to be consistent this one would need to be called "truespin front unity" and trick #13 would need to be called "truespin alleyoop unity". Blading has already embraced truespin and alleyoop as opposite directional spins, so calling something both "truespin" and "alleyoop" is illogical and confusing. Your point about zero spins is valid. Usually, zero spin implies a fakie approach without spin. However, I'll concede that there is a 90 degree spin, so just calling it "fakie front unity" or "fakie back savannah" would be less misleading. I'm willing to make that adjustment. I stand by my statement that a/o unity is the same amount of rotation as a royale. You're conflating rotation with body positioning. Obviously, a/o unity and savannah variations are more difficult for beginners than a frontside, but that's not due to additional body rotation but foot placement and weight distribution. The more awkward the stance, the more difficult the lock and hold will be. Admittedly, this isn't the best analogy but a pudslide doesn't have more spin than a backslide, just because its more difficult. Next point: the nickname argument can't apply to savannah cleanly because once all 16 variations are accounted for, it will leave holes/inconsistencies. I pointed one out earlier, but there are two different tricks that would be called "truespin unity," one with the front leg leading and one with the back leg leading. In order to distinguish them, one would need to change to either "truespin savanna" or "truespin alley-oop" . . . the first name is already taken in your sytem (and implies backside, not frontside) and the second is logically inconsistent. A similar problem unfolds with the fakie variations. There's also the issue of your truespin savannah being a 90 degree spin and your truespin unity being a 270 degree rotation. Again, the old system works up until a certain point and breaks down. You said that "there is no advantage is saying 270 back savannah, instead of savannah," and you're right in that singular instance. BUT when all 16 tricks are accounted for it is 100% internally consistent and accurately describes every variation without any ambiguity. Defining unity and savannah by leading foot position is the only way to achieve coherence: 4 forward variations, 4 fakie variations, 4 forward 270 variations, and 4 fakie 270 variations. To recap, saving syllables can't come at the cost of ineffective communication. While I still use the old terms myself (a/o unity and savannah), they can't clearly describe all 16 variations and they contradict how spins are defined/applied everywhere else. Unity and savannah are grove tricks, and despite their "difficulty" over other grove tricks or relationship to sole tricks (both of which I'd argue against), they shouldn't be treated differently, especially if those tricks aren't even consistent with themselves. Finally, NBD rights and cultural relevancy can still be respected by preserving nickname tricks (kindgrind, fishbrain, sweatstance, etc.) while reapplying other a singular name (savannah) to fix the linguistic problems that weren't anticipated at its inception.
@@weliveonearth8012 Wait . . . are you saying "fakie unity" and "zero spin unity" are two different tricks? Also what would be the difference between 270 unity and truespin unity? Both are 270's away from the obstacle right? Finally, why would you use full cab for a fakie 270 spin? Also, why only half the time? Can I ask where you are from? The system you just posted is unlike any I've encountered.
Good video, but it didn’t really touch on some of the main issues that are causing the whole divide to this day. I’m 100% team savannah, but I look at this debate as one of the most important things that needs to be discussed and settled on at some level of authority, whatever that may be, but I think looking at it as syntax and treating it just as a grammatical error in one’s language is very simplified. In my opinion it’s more akin to math. Math is universal. And if the math doesn’t add up, it doesn’t add up. There’s geometry in blading tricks whether people realize it or not. Geometric patterns.
Respectfully, syntax is mathematical and this solution creates internal consistency with all unity tricks and cohesion with all blading tricks. The old system is not symmetrical at all. it uses the name Savannah for only 2 of 16 unity variations and leaves 6 other 270 variations with long multisyllabic names . . . fakie 270 backside alley-oop unity. It's inconsistent and impractical.
@@RollMinnesota like I said, I'm fully team Savannah. Don't get that part twisted, and I commend the attempt. What I'm saying is the disconnect between the 2 camps goes way deeper than the points you touched on. The actual root of the problem is that there is no official, agreed upon definition of Alleyoop. At the very least, Alleyoop in regards to street rollerblading tricks. (Before anyone says it, yes, I'm aware Alleyoop came from vert and applied to grinds because it was essentially an alleyoop air to them)
@@zekwilt I agree with your point . . . the misunderstanding definitely stems from the term alleyoop. However, I'd argue that the terms alleyoop and truespin have become universally embraced in skating as directional spins into grinds. I suspect everyone (even the most traditional OG's) would agree with that. The sticking point is the incompatibility of this definition of alleyoop and truespin (directional spin) with older tricks that used alleyoop more liberally to denote a backwards or reverse direction. The two are incompatible. One camp ignores the incompatibility out of routine and adherence to tradition and the other attempts to fix it, by redefining a few problematic terms. Personally, I'm in both camps. I still use the old flawed system, but I see the problem and acknowledge that the solution is simple, elegant, and consistent . . . linguistically speaking.
Here in Mexico the situation of unity and savannah is weird, here to differentiate them they say that unity is the easy one and the savannah is the difficult one, and of course this leads to several problems, first that makes it subjective and second with the 270 spins, as the 270 bs savannah is easier than the 270 bs unity which is more difficult, in Mexico they say that the first one is unity and the second one is savannah 🤦♂
I can definitely see how that would be problematic. It's frustrating, because it could be so simply if it were just based on foot position (leading leg) like every other rollerblading grind.
No controversy, a savannah is a 270 backside alley oop unity. Like a kind grind. It's the only savannah. Everything else is wrong. Sorry if that hurts butts.
That sentiment may work for those that can’t or don’t do the other 270 Unity/savannah variations, but once all 16 variations are accounted for, savannah and a/o unity don’t work. The naming system breaks down. I suspect most don’t realize this because they’ve never done or considered what to call the other 270 variations. For example, Truespin a/o Unity.
270 backside unity = original savannah nothing else , now days i just call the the leg wrapped the other way to a unity a savannah back or front yes this makes more sense an we should really drop the ao unity and move on ... this video going still have people confused hahaha x
That works too. However, if alleyoop and truespin are both forward 180 spins, it would makes more sense to use inspin and outspin for fakie 180 spins (not 90 degrees).
Im an old head. My issue with this debate is giving the trick a completely different name. I know its a take people would hate but id rather it still be a unity but with a term to differentiate from the standard unity.
I'm just glad to be alive in the time of the great unity vs savannah debate. One day, when all the dust us settled, I'll be able to tell my grandchildren "I was there"
Hopefully our grandchildren know what skating is . . .
@@RollMinnesota agreed 😂, also hopefully this debate is actually settled by then 🥶
Agreed, the leading leg is the key for identification.
I don't understand the leading leg thing though. Isn't the back leg leading in all cases? Since the legs are crossed?
I’ve been riding BMX for 17 years only blading for one year. When I’m talking about my blade tricks… I call all my blade grinds the BMX name of an equal grind.. Blading is confusing when it comes to trick names. But X grind, and switch x grind is simple for savannah vs unity. In BMX. Would say alleyopp x grind to backwards grind to 180 out. 🤷🏾♂️
Great Blade Content and thanks for the SHIFT. VS SL SKY VIDEO. I just grabbed a pair of Skys from Carriers Skate Shop in Dallas, Texas 🤠
Haha good point about X grind! 😃👍🏻
Note: If that would have been the trick name then it would be: X (Unity) and Alley-oop X (Savannah). When backside then you would add BS to the name. Actually much more cool ❤😃🙌🏻✅
Feel like I should get some sort of certification for watching that…😂 good stuff
Congrats! I hereby certify you in Advanced Savannah Analysis!
Well argued. I say we adopt it. The consistency is worth it. Only part that got missed on the historical naming is the convention about alley-oop *also* getting applied anytime your back was facing forward on the grind (like it mostly does in a savannah), not just the grind being "backward" conceptually. I think Arlo said he would have called them fakie grinds instead of alley-oop if he got to name them again. That way fakie can define the direction the body is facing and leave alley-oop solely for spin direction.
When I did roller blades I did Alot of things fakey fit I was better at vert
I thought I covered that briefly, with alley-oop referring to a reverse grind rather than a directional 180 spin. I could have been more clear though.
@@RollMinnesotaI can see what you said meaning that. Maybe just the way I interpreted it.
Great video and I agree with what foot leading determines the name
Loved it sir 🎉❤
I literally LOL'd at 5:31 when you showed the clip from the facebook rollerblading group lol
Historically speaking, that clip has merit and is accurate. However, it leaves off 6 other 270 variations with complex and contradictory names. Probably because those variations weren't invented yet, when the name Savannah was first used. Savannah (in the traditional sense: 270 backside alleyoop unity) makes sense until other 270 tricks were introduced and spins became directionally defined (truespin and alley-oop)
Agree with what we should adopt. That’s how we’ve done thing where I’m from since the 90s. My only exception is that you can’t zero spin in to a Savanah or Unity because you have to rotate 90 degrees. (Unless you approach perpendicularly) Great video though. 💪🏼💪🏼
Agree with your last statement 100%.
What would you call it instead of zerospin. Fakie savannah or fakie unity? Just curious.
@@RollMinnesota you just don’t call it anything when you spin 90 on to something. Thats just the mandatory rotation you would have to do to land the trick.
it is fakie unity or savannah. zero is not used for groove tricks, I assume.😊
@@RollMinnesota yea, it would be fakie to savannah, fakie to unity. Or fakie savannah, fakie unity Ike you said. Same thing.
Although I KNOW what someone is implying when they say zero [groove trick], I don’t think it’s logically consistent.
And @misfit1347 I’d agree if that were the case going forward to a normal groove trick, but rolling backwards, not so much. You have to communicate the backwards approach somehow.
Wow great content! I miss skating so much my bones are not as easy to take any impacts anymore and body does not feel like rubber anymore. But thinking about going back I still have my Shima 3s Solomon Stiis and my last were Remz 2002 model. Damn how I miss it!
My bad my Remz are 2003 model...am one year more than I thought
THIS IS GREAT, THANK YOU!
7:58 - For me this clarifies all in a logical manner.
Let me remind Aussie's used to call royale SHIFTY GRIND.
Shifty Royale. i think the move was discovered/created by John Pollard (Aussie).
Agree. I had this same debate with friends 25 years ago when the tricks were developed in the late 1990s and early 2000s.
Terminology:
We called your favorite trick for 270 Savannah, or simply BS Savannah.
We called Chris Haffys trick inspin Savannah.
We called the zero variations for fakie Savannah, halfcab Savannah, fullcab Savannah, etc.
The problem today is still the terminology.
Inline skating:
All respectable Legends of our sport, like Chris Edwards, and many others say the term Aggressive skating should be eliminated. The term was designed for failure by skateboard haters because eventually no one likes aggressive people. Aggresors are punished in the judicial system. So why would you call yourself an aggressive skater?
Fishbrain:
Tom Ahlqvist (Denmark) explained to me how Tom Fry (Australia) invented the name Fishbrain on one of their skate tours in the late 1990s. People on the tour thought it was a funny name, and it quickly became the established name in the industry. Today, it would be cool to re-name that trick.
been skating more than 20 years in Turkey and US. we used almost all same but trues savannah . U call it 270 FS Savannah . good video man !! We need to fix our namee !! 😅
That's what I would typically call it too, but for the system to be consistent it needs to eliminate alley-oop and truespin with grove tricks. 270 FS Savannah would imply still a spin away from the rail.
@@RollMinnesota everything makes sence . 🙏🙌 I am ok to call it 270 fs sav . Good stuff
I may be wrong, but I think Acosta was trying to simplify his explanation in a video where he references the lead foot position as the easy way to tell the difference.. I've been thinking of it that way ever since. I agree with your analysis, good video.
THANK YOU!
This completely makes sense
This is great Butch as always. I’m a MN skater and frankly I never fully understood the difference between the two. Maybe it’s because both were tricks i tended to stay away from ha. My thought is this. I think it’s maybe the same conclusion you offer, but perhaps a simpler explanation (I am sure I’m missing something). I know you touched on it too, but I think of AO or true as soul tricks only. Grove tricks should be FS or BS. When landing on a soul, that right there dictates that you are completely parallel to the rail, ledge and would mean it’s a full 180 rotation. Being in your grooves means you’re perpendicular, so a 90 or 270, 450, etc spin. 90 has no word so FS or BS. I know you covered all that, but it’s the way I have always thought of it. Soul tricks = AO or True, groove tricks = FS or BS. Now the thing I never understood about U vs S was the foot placement. So I agree we should agree on one foot in front is unity and one in back is Savanah.
This is the best video on this topic. Didn't argue the history, but argued why "AO Unity" is inconsistent syntax in modern blading, 10/10. I don't really care what we call it, we just can't have the "AO" in there, so I'm pro-savannah. My little troll is to argue it should have been called "Citric Unity" all along. A Sav is a Unity with your legs crossed "the other way". We already have a term for that - Citric - a Citric Acid is an Acid with your legs crossed "the other way". So IMO, "Citric Unity" follows convention, doesn't break any rules (no one ever said "citric" was reserved for soul tricks, why would it need to be?), and it perfectly describes the trick with known terms. The only thing is no one likes it, but I think it's totally valid.
Citric works, though I would have advocated for the name "dis-unity" for it if I was around at the very beginning.
@@RollMinnesota or just call it "division" since the antonym for unite would be divide, as well as the duality for how much division this trick has caused among skaters 🤔😅
It is settled!
Agreed!
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Been skating years and I still get confused with trick names
Lets all Unite behind Unity... 😎💋💯
I think ao and true should refer to the direction of the spin as you said, and be applied to soul tricks beyond 180. So a 3 soul spun in the direction of an ao soul is an ao 3 soul. I dont like hardspin or hurricane since ao and true can describe the same trick a little more clearly
I see your point on 360’s. I made a video about that a few years ago too.
I was not s street person but I fid it a berttet at vert
Always been a unity to me, but it makes sense that backfoot in front should have a different name. Either way, I don't care what you call it as long we never let rollerblading die.
This is the most important thing! I'm an English teacher and love grammar and the systems of language, so the discussion intrigues me. However, names are ultimately irrelevant as long as people can still communicate their ideas.
I like it, KISS theory and we then can have both
Savannah and unity difference should be which foot is leading.
Unity.
Allyoop Unity.
Savannah. (270 allyoop unity)
Shout outs to Matt Andrews, Nick Riggle, Billy Preason, Connor O’Brien.
That's what I call them too, but what about the other 270 unity variations. That's where it completely falls apart, because Savannah was named before those variations were conceived. Now that they exist, along with alley-oop and truespin signifying spin direction, Savannah (270 alleyoop unit) is no longer coherent.
I’ll say it again , if you can do every variation of said trick , you can call it whatever you want 😊
Savanna = harder than a unity
A savannah was and is like an AlleyOop TP except you turn your topside foot into the groove and thats the bottom line cause Aaron feinberg and Stone Cold said so. Side note AlleyOop is not the grind. AlleyOop is the spin.
The people that debate this the most can’t do a Unity let alone a Sav.
270 back unity = Twizzler
Sounds delicious!
forward: (to answer your maybe retorical questions)
....the trick from haffey is truespin unity (does not need to say frontside)
.....the other trick from haffey is full cab tru savannah.
.....there doesn't need to be consistency, same as sweatstance/kindgrind no mention of "mizou"
.....farfignugen can be "full torque" but royale isn't "full backslide"
.....etc etc etc (there are many exceptions that add simplicity and/or cultural relevance)
Summary:
There's no legit reason to single this out from other inconsistencies as mentioned like sweaty and kg.
If you tried to wipe out every inconsistency it would be an inferior and long winded naming system.
I think the real reason you made this video was to show your laced savannah up/across/down.
My full take on this:
A great topic but (unless I missed it) you didn't explain the likely linguistic explanations for why this occurred.
Namely fewer syllables and better represents what is occurring (a fluid trick rather than a complicated trick).
1. The likely reason a 270 backside alloy-oop unity was named "Savannah" is b/c 12 syllables is too many.
Even 270 backside savannah is 9 syllables which is way too many for such a smooth natured grind.
The word savannah feels right linguistically b/c of the sounds and few syllables (more on this below)
another ex: Fakie 270 alleyoop backside unity/savannah (14 syllables) vs full cab tru savannah (6 syllables)
2. You also didn't address whether or not truspin frontside or truespin royale is acceptable, which I believe it is.
270 frontside and 270 royale are fine too but in real life those tricks don't always add up to 270 spin.
(more on this below regarding ramp skating and unique approaches)
3. The 3rd thing you failed to explain is that ao unity is uniquely named b/c it is distinct from other grove tricks.
Alleyoop unity requires more spin than frontside/royale/farv/unity which all require a similar degree of spin.
It is obviously a groove trick, but more closely resembles an alleyoop trick thus the naming ao (and truspin).
There are other groove tricks with a spin resembling ao and truspin. ao/ts are the spin as much as the grind.
There is generally a greater level of commitment required with truspin tricks, including tru frontside or royale.
ao spin and tru spin are more about the feel than about the exact number of degrees turned or sole stance.
It is afterall truSPIN. It's truspin (or alleyoop) even if your stance does not involve a sole or negative sole.
4. The 4th problem with your thesis is that to be consistent you are advocating to do away with sweatstance.
You can't get rid of sweat stance (for topside Mizou) or kindgrind (ao ts miz) that would just be killing culture.
As with savannah sweat stance 2 syllables instead of 4 (ts mizou) and kindgrind 2 instead of 6 (ao ts mizou)
But it's not just about syllables, they are also just better names that better represents the tricks.
Savannah should remain a stand-alone word for the same reasons sweatstance/kindgrind should remain:
culture, fewer syllables, better represents fluidity required for the grind to be done well.
Savannah and Tru Savannah should remain beautiful shorthand names for these backside unity tricks.
Full cab savannah (5) and full cab tru savannah (6) are more eloquent than your (long winded) proposals.
To recap, the trick in question can be grouped with alloyoop tricks b/c it's not like other fs/bs tricks.
The exception is 270 frontside/270 royale which I believe can be label truspin.
Or 270 backside which I believe can be labeled alleyoop backside (it is AO both in spin and in stance)
(b/c all of these tricks feel like alleyoop/truspin I consider this a reference to the spin as much as the grind)
It's simple....frontside versions are ao unity and tru untity....backside versions are savannah and tru savannah.
Tru frontside/royale/farv are acceptable as well b/c these tricks are nothing like standard frontside/backside.
The rule is that when a groove trick requires a technical spin into the grind they can be alleyoop and truspin..
5. The 5th problem which your system is that it's not 270 on a ramp or certain street approaches.
Using the numbered degree of spin onto grinds is a bad idea generally.
A backside on a rail is 45-90, on a ramp is 180 (more on a ramp). Frontside on a ramp is 0-45 (less on a ramp)
Tru frontside on a rail is
I appreciate your thoughts, but I have to disagree on many points here . . . I'll try to hit a few.
First, you are right about the length and syllables; however, your example is exaggerated. Full cab true savannah (6 syllables) vs. Fakie 270 back savannah (7 syllables) is negligible. Also, even though most people don't/can't do them all, there are 16 different variations of unity and savannah to account for, and some of them get very problematic under the old system. For example, if true savannah is the backside version of a/o unity (90 degree rotation, back leg leading), then what will you call the 270 frontside version (trick #13 in my video)? Truespin alley-oop unity? That's illogical and inconsistent with the rest of blading. The system I proposed is 100% internally and externally consistent, with no ambiguity. It might cost an extra syllable or two (sometimes), but I think that's a fair trade for systematic coherence.
A second point: how does a/o unity require more spin than a frontside or royale? Both feet and upper-body end-up facing the same direction (granted you have to cross legs), but it's still just 90 degrees. I guess angles are a bit different on ramps, but if you're carving into a grind, you should be close to riding parallel with the coping anyway. Again, the difference seems negligible: unless you are rolling straight up to stall, 270 royale vs 450 royale on a quarterpipe should be clear. Personally, I don't find this to be a strong counterargument.
Another point, this doesn't affect sweatstance at all . . . I addressed that in the video with fishbrain and kindgrind. They act as nicknames for a specific variation without affecting the underlying system; unity and savannah create incongruities for otherwise established principles like what alleyoop and truespin signify and how groove tricks operate. If alleyoop unity is literally an alleyoop unity, why not call a front farv an alleyoop royale? If there's a truespin royale is there also an alleyoop royale . . . there probably should be for logical consistency.
Finally, I'm not sure I understand your last point about switch and natural. There are a lot of tricks I'm better at "switch" because the spin is more natural. However, I'm not sure what that has to do with trick names . . . unless you are suggesting people call unnatural spins truespins, regardless of direction. If so, that's even more problematic; truespin should always imply a rotation away from the obstacle.
@@RollMinnesota
"Fakie 270 back savannah (7 syllables)" ???
Even with "backside" shortened to "back" this is 10 syallables (not 7).
Other examples:
Your #11 is 9 syallables. Savannah is 3.
Your #13 is 9 syallables. True spin unity is 5....true unity is 4
"No other h-block trick has an alleyoop or truespin version"
Maybe true, but if I understand correctly, you are proposing to use Zero Spin.
What other h-block trick uses the term "zero spin"??? none that I'm aware of.
It seems you propose to use "zero spin savannah" and "zero spin backside savannah"?
Why are you saying it's ok to use the term zero spin for unity, but not alleyoop and truespin?
Please explain to me how there is "NO" consistency here:
(AO) Savannah, Zero Spin Savannah, True Spin Savannah (backside versions)
AO Unity............Zero Spin Unity..........True Spin Unity (frontside versions)
Unity.......Fakie Unity.....270 Unity
bs Unity, fakie bs Unity, 270 bs Unity
Exactly what variations are hard to name with this system?
The only example you give is #13 and that is easy, it's true spin unity.
Being most like a p-star here is the layout for consistency:
ao p-star....zero p-star..........true spin p-star
ao unity.....zero spin unity....true spin unity
It lines up perfectly, there's perfect consistency b/t the two very similar stances.
Your error is in trying to draw a hard line b/t sole grinds and h-block grinds.
This distinction is imaginary.
-Some people do soyales like royales other people do them like ao sole.
-A mistrial has just as much to do with a royale as it does a mizou.
-Many budget tricks involving a sole are really h-block tricks with a mostly floating sole.
-AO unity is closer to AO p-star than an AO negative p-star (of the 3 negative is the oddball not unity)
There is no basis for limiting ao/ts to sole based only when they are accurate for groove tricks also.
I don't understand your second point.
First you say it's the same amount of spin then you admit it does require more spin.
All you have to do to understand this is look at what tricks a new person learns first.
99% of people will learn frontside/royale/unity way before ao unity and that's legit proof if distinction.
You don't see that distinction with sole base tricks, none of the 7 variations significantly stand out.
(early ones are sole/mizou/makio/p-star and not a big deal to ease into mistrial/acid/torque sole)
AO Unity stands out like a sore thumb from the other base groove tricks, closely resembles AO p-star.
Likewise, what beginner is learning trusav before backside/backroyale/backunity?
Maybe it's only 10-20 degrees different but in the real world (not theory) that makes it distinct.
Why wouldn't the nickname argument apply to savannah?
We don't say: topside makio, or topside mizou, or alleyoop topside mizou.
LIkewise we don't say 270 backside alleyoop unity.
The only time we use these technical words is in teaching.
And, you can successfully say "270 backside alleyoop unity" to explain Savannah.
But there is no advantage to say that (or 270 backside savannah) instead of "Savannah".
There technical names are for teaching, not for print or vernacular
What you are calling nicknames is actually the primary name.
Assuming you believe Alleyoop refers only to the stance and not the spin then:
Alleyoop Royale is a legit (technical) explanation for a Farv.
(Yes the balance is typically very different, but AO sole balance is nothing like sole balance)
If someone asked what is a torque...essentially AO backslide
If someone asked what is pudslide...essentially AO fastslide
If someone asked what is a switch/unnatural frontside....essentially AO frontside
For the seasoned skaters who has well rounded skills:
270 royale is easier on a ramp than a box..but truspin royale is easier on a box than a ramp.
You know this is true but you are stuck in your head counting degree of turn, instead of real world.
I'm not arguing to do away with "270" altogether but alleyoop and truespin are often preferred.
As stated, I thought you might not understand #6.
The point of #6 is multifaceted.
I can get back to that later
1. The syllables argument is legit. See above comparisons on #11 and #13 among others.
2. AO Unity is distinct from other (base) groove tricks and often more resembles AO p-star.
(this includes not only additional spinning but also method of approach and the stance itself)
3. The reasons we have Savannah are identical to the reasons we have the other "nicknames".
(reduce technical jargon and reduce syllables to aid vernacular & NBD rights/cultural relevance)
I agree that my truespin frontside argument is not worth it.
That could create legit confusion.
But if there is confusion about Savannah then my crew growing up much be special.
We were never confused about this.
There's another problem with this video, you can't UFS language.
If you could, then all words would spell the way they sound.
This video makes rollerblading more confused, not less.
Here are all 16:
Unity
Backside Unity
Fakie Unity
Fakie Backside Unity
270 Unity
270 Backside Unity
Fakie 270 Unity
Fakie 270 Backside Unity
AO Unity
Savannah
Zero Spin Unity
Zero Spin Savannah
True Spin Unity
True Spin Savanah
Full Cab Unity
Full Cab Savannah
Count the syallables and Say the names out loud.
This is proper vernacular at work.
@@weliveonearth8012 First, I admit I miscounted the syllables in my example, but the number of syllables are still closely aligned to other, similar tricks . . . "fakie 270 back royale" is universally accepted but "fakie 270 back savannah" is too much?
Next point: I think you're not seeing the inconsistency of the old system because you aren't accounting for all 16 variations of unity/savannah. For example, you called tick #13 truespin unity (back leg leading); however, there is also a 270 variation spinning away from the obstacle with the front leg leading (almost like a hurricane top acid). I couldn't land this one in my video, but in order to be consistent this one would need to be called "truespin front unity" and trick #13 would need to be called "truespin alleyoop unity". Blading has already embraced truespin and alleyoop as opposite directional spins, so calling something both "truespin" and "alleyoop" is illogical and confusing.
Your point about zero spins is valid. Usually, zero spin implies a fakie approach without spin. However, I'll concede that there is a 90 degree spin, so just calling it "fakie front unity" or "fakie back savannah" would be less misleading. I'm willing to make that adjustment.
I stand by my statement that a/o unity is the same amount of rotation as a royale. You're conflating rotation with body positioning. Obviously, a/o unity and savannah variations are more difficult for beginners than a frontside, but that's not due to additional body rotation but foot placement and weight distribution. The more awkward the stance, the more difficult the lock and hold will be. Admittedly, this isn't the best analogy but a pudslide doesn't have more spin than a backslide, just because its more difficult.
Next point: the nickname argument can't apply to savannah cleanly because once all 16 variations are accounted for, it will leave holes/inconsistencies. I pointed one out earlier, but there are two different tricks that would be called "truespin unity," one with the front leg leading and one with the back leg leading. In order to distinguish them, one would need to change to either "truespin savanna" or "truespin alley-oop" . . . the first name is already taken in your sytem (and implies backside, not frontside) and the second is logically inconsistent. A similar problem unfolds with the fakie variations. There's also the issue of your truespin savannah being a 90 degree spin and your truespin unity being a 270 degree rotation.
Again, the old system works up until a certain point and breaks down. You said that "there is no advantage is saying 270 back savannah, instead of savannah," and you're right in that singular instance. BUT when all 16 tricks are accounted for it is 100% internally consistent and accurately describes every variation without any ambiguity. Defining unity and savannah by leading foot position is the only way to achieve coherence: 4 forward variations, 4 fakie variations, 4 forward 270 variations, and 4 fakie 270 variations.
To recap, saving syllables can't come at the cost of ineffective communication. While I still use the old terms myself (a/o unity and savannah), they can't clearly describe all 16 variations and they contradict how spins are defined/applied everywhere else. Unity and savannah are grove tricks, and despite their "difficulty" over other grove tricks or relationship to sole tricks (both of which I'd argue against), they shouldn't be treated differently, especially if those tricks aren't even consistent with themselves. Finally, NBD rights and cultural relevancy can still be respected by preserving nickname tricks (kindgrind, fishbrain, sweatstance, etc.) while reapplying other a singular name (savannah) to fix the linguistic problems that weren't anticipated at its inception.
@@weliveonearth8012 Wait . . . are you saying "fakie unity" and "zero spin unity" are two different tricks? Also what would be the difference between 270 unity and truespin unity? Both are 270's away from the obstacle right? Finally, why would you use full cab for a fakie 270 spin? Also, why only half the time? Can I ask where you are from? The system you just posted is unlike any I've encountered.
Good video, but it didn’t really touch on some of the main issues that are causing the whole divide to this day. I’m 100% team savannah, but I look at this debate as one of the most important things that needs to be discussed and settled on at some level of authority, whatever that may be, but I think looking at it as syntax and treating it just as a grammatical error in one’s language is very simplified. In my opinion it’s more akin to math. Math is universal. And if the math doesn’t add up, it doesn’t add up. There’s geometry in blading tricks whether people realize it or not. Geometric patterns.
Respectfully, syntax is mathematical and this solution creates internal consistency with all unity tricks and cohesion with all blading tricks. The old system is not symmetrical at all. it uses the name Savannah for only 2 of 16 unity variations and leaves 6 other 270 variations with long multisyllabic names . . . fakie 270 backside alley-oop unity. It's inconsistent and impractical.
@@RollMinnesota like I said, I'm fully team Savannah. Don't get that part twisted, and I commend the attempt. What I'm saying is the disconnect between the 2 camps goes way deeper than the points you touched on. The actual root of the problem is that there is no official, agreed upon definition of Alleyoop. At the very least, Alleyoop in regards to street rollerblading tricks. (Before anyone says it, yes, I'm aware Alleyoop came from vert and applied to grinds because it was essentially an alleyoop air to them)
Whatt ???? He explained it very clearly . What are unsaying here ??
@@zekwiltAO is not doing tha justice on grove tricks .
@@zekwilt I agree with your point . . . the misunderstanding definitely stems from the term alleyoop. However, I'd argue that the terms alleyoop and truespin have become universally embraced in skating as directional spins into grinds. I suspect everyone (even the most traditional OG's) would agree with that. The sticking point is the incompatibility of this definition of alleyoop and truespin (directional spin) with older tricks that used alleyoop more liberally to denote a backwards or reverse direction. The two are incompatible. One camp ignores the incompatibility out of routine and adherence to tradition and the other attempts to fix it, by redefining a few problematic terms. Personally, I'm in both camps. I still use the old flawed system, but I see the problem and acknowledge that the solution is simple, elegant, and consistent . . . linguistically speaking.
Here in Mexico the situation of unity and savannah is weird, here to differentiate them they say that unity is the easy one and the savannah is the difficult one, and of course this leads to several problems, first that makes it subjective and second with the 270 spins, as the 270 bs savannah is easier than the 270 bs unity which is more difficult, in Mexico they say that the first one is unity and the second one is savannah 🤦♂
I can definitely see how that would be problematic. It's frustrating, because it could be so simply if it were just based on foot position (leading leg) like every other rollerblading grind.
will die a blade boomer - tru sav
Rollerblading CPD at it's finest 👍😂
No controversy, a savannah is a 270 backside alley oop unity. Like a kind grind. It's the only savannah. Everything else is wrong. Sorry if that hurts butts.
That sentiment may work for those that can’t or don’t do the other 270 Unity/savannah variations, but once all 16 variations are accounted for, savannah and a/o unity don’t work. The naming system breaks down. I suspect most don’t realize this because they’ve never done or considered what to call the other 270 variations. For example, Truespin a/o Unity.
270 backside unity = original savannah nothing else , now days i just call the the leg wrapped the other way to a unity a savannah back or front yes this makes more sense an we should really drop the ao unity and move on ... this video going still have people confused hahaha x
The thing is, who invented those names! why is alley oop, why is fish brain, why why why.
HAHAHHAHAH
0 fs unity - inspin (which implies fakie) fs unity. 0 bs unity = outspin bs unity
That works too. However, if alleyoop and truespin are both forward 180 spins, it would makes more sense to use inspin and outspin for fakie 180 spins (not 90 degrees).
Noooooooooooooo
Im an old head. My issue with this debate is giving the trick a completely different name. I know its a take people would hate but id rather it still be a unity but with a term to differentiate from the standard unity.
I have a hard time letting go too . . . I still use the old terminology with my crew, but objectively, it is problematic and can easily be fixed.