What's it Like to Study Philosophy at Oxford? Cosmic Skeptic
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Do you need to go to university in the modern era? Clip taken from '250k Livestream': • 250K Livestream | Ask ...
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Theoretically speaking you could learn everything in a university without actually going to once (through reading online books, etc) but practically the advatage of a university is still magnificent:
-official degrees (BoS, Masters, PhD, Dr, etc.) which help with applying
-more pressue because of strict schedules instead of your own (usualy lazy) paste
-connecting with other students, exchanging information, socializing, making friends
-being able to ask your profs or tutors questions if you don't understand
-having a lab for science experiments/ electronics workshop/ super computers
That wouldn't work with medical university
Not quite. There's a shed load of information, including books, that you cannot get for free online. It costs millions to run a decent sized academic library, and much if the online stuff is only accessible if you're a member of the university. Things are hidden behind paywalls, and the library pays for access. Am a university librarian, so have a bit of insight into this.
@@rachcampb sci hub?
Professor quality is significant too
Yeah..
Don't get me wrong i really respect professors for the commitment and amount of knowledge they possess but i have never found it to be the case that I need a teacher atleast after learned to read, maybe it's just because I have truly terrible teachers on the fact that i live in a developing country or that i have yet not found truly difficult topics that need a teacher to truly understand but I have always felt teachers have only slowed me down.
It’s not only about reading! Discussing what you have read is as important.
In our part of the world, there is one common phrase that referred to the extremist and terrorist like isis and alqaeda "those are who has read books" it is referred in a way that is intended to insult. What actually happened is that those pepole picked some books mostly forgeten or ignored book from the islamic culture and then went on to fight for their understood version of islam. Those didn't get a degree in islamic studies neither laws nor theology (most of them are doctors and engineers) never discussed their "knowledge" with any scholar or specialist.
This will not happen only in near east but also in west, because you must read with peers and teachers. Another type of extremisim is being born, those of the left and right.
online forums
It’s also good to be around experts, at least to an extent. Most people who read philosophy on their own aren’t smart enough to get a lot out of it.
You are woefully mistaken if you believe such 'discussion' is to be found at universities today. 99% of people there don't give a shit about their subject and simply want to graduate into a corporate job in London.
This summer I finished a degree in English literature at what's supposed to be one of the best institutions in the UK. I didn't have a single productive conversation with either student or staff member my entire time there. Everything I learnt and wrote about in my essays I learned from the books I read. And I graduated top of my class. University today is a sick joke.
@@robertjordan355 It's impossible trying to reason with people that have this conflict of interest. They've dedicated their life to a path, for some objectivity is too much to ask.
Well, there are important advantages being in the university. The fact that you have someone (some of the best lecturers in your case) explaining to you philosophical concepts it's a huge plus (try reading Hegel on your own). Besides that, in your private life you may have a hard time finding people with whom you can share your passion and engage in conversation/debate. Learning to write essays is also very important; how to structure and engage with the material in order to form a coherent argument and then have it verified by your lecture, who tells you what you've done well/wrong.
"When the british set it on fire" *chuckles* 0:17
"Education is just reading." Yeah, right. I had a friend who tried that route. He ended up in manual labor his whole career. Most people can't read philosophy on their own and get it. Read the Critique of Pure Reason on your own? I think not. If you want to merely dabble in philosophy, then no, you don't need college. But if you want a job teaching philosophy, then you better go to college. Teachers are rather important.
Being at university is not just doing the reading. You said yourself you got to sit down with an expert in the field each week and discuss the topic at length. You also have to write essays and are given feedback on how you construct arguments. None of this is to mention the most important part: discussing the content with your peers. All of those are far more valuable than simply reading a text
meanwhile in online forums u can talk with hundreds of experts on any field...
@@gutzimmumdo4910 yes, talking with armchair experts on internet...
yes, getting feedback on your writing and discussions with an expert makes a very significant difference and something you cannot get just from reading by yourself, although reading is still amazing
@@patek92The important part is discussing it, and debating it.
Okay sure, but this only applies to subjects which are only about literature. Subjects like chemistry, medicine, biology etc you cannot do that on your own.
Certainly not experimentally but technically you could still read the text books, scripts, and lab reports
@@ShadowZZZ of course, i‘m just sayin‘
Yes. I'm so frustrated with the University system now though. It's so freaking expensive. It's business now... I cannot believe it takes so much personal cost and effort to do mankind a favour as a scientist.
@@ankushds7018 depends where you live, in Germany for example we only pay around 300€ per semester
@@lendrestapas2505 Well. I'd love to study in Germany, lol. But I'm from India. The education isn't that expensive, it's just shitty. The idea of science that's predominant here is that of a utilitarian, useful institution. Nothing more, nothing less. They ignore the consequences of the scientific method. They don't see science as this wonderful thing in itself, but as this tool that allows us to do things. (Which is of course true, but I'd prefer to look at that as a side benefit). Idk why international fees is so expensive!! I mean, I understand why it is the way it is... But at the same time I wonder if it has to be that way.
Alex is one of the most level headed, clear minded, deeply philosophical, well read and articulate people I've come across.
That's pretty sad
like...like...like... This is articulate?
@@Mikedr55 Yeah, it is, because using fillers is normal and does not detract from speech quality.
I wasted about 6 years studying engineering because everyone around me was doing it. I was interested in psychology but my grades weren't good enough to get into it (I'm German) and everyone told me I wouldn't get a job with a philosophy degree. Now I'm sitting here at 27 about to graduate in a field I don't care about. It's not easy to find your place in this society if all you like to do is read and think. You need to make a living somehow even if it feels like a total waste of time while you try to be successful as a writer or something like that. I wish UBI was already here so I could spend more time working on something meaningful.
Verständlich. Studiere selbst Physik weil ich aber auch fasziniert und Erkenntnis, Mathe und Naturwissenschaften bin. Thema Ausbildung muss man halt die goldene Schnittstelle finden von den Teilmengen was dich begeistert und dem wovon du tatsächlich gut verdienst. Diese scheinen jedoch invers proportional zueinander zu sein. Aber ein BGE ist eine geniale Idee für die ich auch bin, Andrew Yang hat gute Argumente dafür.
I'm not quite sure what's your point? Are you saying we shouldn't do philosophy as a uni degree if we enjoy it, or we should?
I get you. I studied medicine and have been practising for 6 years. I'm 29 now. It pays the bills, but I'm not as interested in it as I am philosophy. I prefer to think on my own about abstract concepts and this isn't something that is encouraged in medicine. I finally bit the bullet and enrolled in a Philosophy BA in London. Currently studying my first 2 modules and have never been happier or more filled with a sense of purpose. I plan to write once I've acquired the necessary skills. Follow your dreams my friend, engineering will always be there for you. What you dont want are regrets that stay with you forever. Go and seek out the closer you likely need.
Totally agree. UBI would make people so much more happy and productive, it would be the ultimate boost for Well being within a society
Wait, psychology is more competitive than engineering in Germany? Wtf...
Alex said the uncomfortable truth most uni students thousands in debt don't want to hear.
Going to uni is made to appear like the only option for you by society, if you don't go you are a failure, you are a "drop out".
We've all been forced litterally by threat of being taken to court to attend 9-3 schooling 5 days a week almost identical to the 9-5 we are inevitably going to end up in.
Let me tell you, especially for the younger readers, I left high school and started attending the school of life. I've learn more and succeeded more than anyone I know in my life because I had the freedom and room to experiment, to fail, to learn, to explore my passions and now I'm the most fulfilled I've ever been.
Chase your heart not a degree 🙏❤
great advice!
I respectfully disagree , you said it yourself: .
.....you do your worksheets....and then you bring it to your tutor (which you would not have outside of university).
having access to knowledge does not mean you know what to do with all that knowledge.
e.g. we can all find studies and a ton of information about the corona virus, however that does not make us doctors or specialists in corona viruses
You need to know how to structure that knowledge to put it to work. Yes, there are ways of learning and implementing knowledge by experimentation but the road to the same result is usually larger.
His point still hold though. Uni isn't necessary for inculcating in one the ability to be able to leverage and utilise what is learned. The only factor necessarily exclusive to Uni is the Qualification. Uni is not the sole condition for learning and leveraging what is learned and progressing etc.
In our part of the world, there is one common phrase that referred to the extremist and terrorist like isis and alqaeda "those are who has read books" it is referred in a way that is intended to insult. What actually happened is that those pepole picked some books mostly forgeten or ignored book from the islamic culture and then went on to fight for their understood version of islam. Those didn't get a degree in islamic studies neither laws nor theology (most of them are doctors and engineers) never discussed their "knowledge" with any scholar or specialist.
This will not happen only in near east but also in west, because you must read with peers and teachers. Another type of extremisim is being born, those of the left and right.
Well said. Having texts is a good start, but things like guidance and explanations, discussions with peers and professors, writing about subjects and having your writings critiqued are also part of what a university provides.
Imagine, having a couple of good friends and opening a public debate/book club. Every week you'd have something new to talk about and you hear different points of view all the time... Thatd be awesome
@@elijahdabrada9373 Is that the case with medicine or engineering?
I wanna thank you for first expanding my son's mind. He is a different young man. So that made me curious and now I'm reading some of your favorites that I seen in your videos. Thanks.
I find his opinion to be the pervasive take by many intellects of today, however I can't help but disagree.
Motivation is indeed invaluable in terms of forcing you to get through the material. But the structure they provide in exposing you first broadly to a given field, then gradually more specific as you progress is an invaluable way of being guided to learn.
Now you obviously could say, find this structure online. And you could. But not necessarily for free and even if you did, you don't have as much of the interactive support and the relevant assessments that give you thorough feedback on how you're forming your arguments. Having all of that formalised and guaranteed in quality of the personnel, is very different to putting your arguments on perhaps an online forum to have it beaten out there.
And the social aspect of it seems a bit understated in Alex's comment but again, that alone is an invaluable experience. You can find many incredible people online, but to do a lot of this in person has associative effects that would potentiate your learning merely by how your brain works in encoding information that's rich in all the sensory detail.
Anyhow, the bulk of what you're saying is true Alex. We do live in wonderful times. But I just feel there are too many voices out there that undersell the institution of universities and I feel that it contributes to its demise and even people's trust in experts - though that is a serious issue that is in a sense separate.
Just keep in mind, there are many now who think they're experts in a given field from the completely unstructured informal learning they do online and they come out the other end being glorified conspiracy theorists.
(this sounds like it's full of animus, but it's purely to the topic only. I truly do admire and respect your work).
Agreed!
"experts"... Nietzsche - Follow No One, Trust Yourself. construct your own map of reality, Sion, don't rely on the maps of your experts.
Agreed, I also do not have someone who I can discuss with about topics such as philosophy, so university helps greatly.
It's fundamental to assess our knowledge. University have systematic assessment for what you've learnt
One of the greatest advantages of being surrounded by others eager to learn is to be able to sharpen your ideas and words through reciprocated conversation.
There are a lot of holes in this argument but for the sake of this post I'll keep it short.
In the case of reading, a philosophy degree isn't just that. In having respected professors evaluating your papers, arguments, logic, etc., you develop philosophical tools which are very instrumental even outside of philosophy. I used to study philosophy before I went to college but it was only when I had others to evaluate my papers, guide me in the readings, critique my arguments, teach me logic and formal structures, as well as having to write papers that forced me to develop well thought out arguments was I able to attain a lot of instrumental value and clarification regarding complex areas of thought.
As for Jordan Peterson's point on universities making you smart, I'd have to disagree. First and foremost, however, we need to clarify what we mean by smart. Smartness can be restricted to IQ but even there something appears to be off. It would have to be more than that as two people of the same IQ can still be said to vary in how smart they are.
Setting that aside, if we take critical thinking, analytical reasoning, abstract thinking to be components of 'smartness,' then university definitely would develop those areas depending on the rigour of the curriculum and degree. So while it may be true that Universities select people based on how smart they are, it is also the case that university makes you smarter in a sense.
Similarly, if we say that universities select people by how smart they are, we're saying smartness is GPA, SAT or ACT scores, or any other form of standardized scores as this is the main criteria universities use for selecting students. If such is the case, then one can increase their smartness in that sense by studying for those exams and developing useful tools. I'd say University pushes you to do that, thus, increasing your capacity to score higher in those standardized exams. In this working definition then, we can say university does make you smarter.
Keep in mind also that a university is being in an environment that is conducive to you actually studying these texts, thinking about them and discussing them with others and exchanging ideas, rather than just reading by yourself.
I agree with everything you said except for the part about where you said that the only reason that people go to university is for the books when in actuality the second aspect that people go to the university for is to have paid professionals refine your work.
As someone who is constantly pursuing their self-education I can tell you the most difficult obstacle that is stopping me from pursuing my self education is having peer reviewed feedback from someone who is an intellectual in the topic that I am writing an essay on. Because when I write my works and I post them on social media I'm getting feedback from a bunch of people who have never studied philosophy, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but at the same time I'm just trying to make the point that there is another aspect to University and we should recognize this.
I would agree with you as far as a philosophy education goes, but as a mathematics graduate student, I have found it very difficult to teach myself math just through reading. Math textbooks typically have far more topics in them than any course would ever cover. I just bought a graduate algebra text that could easily encompass 5 or 6 semesters. I think a professor is absolutely essential to help me organize my thoughts and direct me at a single topic at a time, and I can trust the professor to have a general feeling of which topics are most essential for understanding that branch of mathematics.
You're right but doesn't it mean you'll be better when you actually go through the manual?
@@McRingil Manual? You mean when I do research myself?
@@JM-us3fr the handbook, manus - latin for hand, where i live we call textbooks manuals
@@McRingil Oh interesting. Yes it does mean I'm more prepared to go through the textbook, but many topics which I've taught myself I have yet to take a class in them, and I still feel very weak in those topics.
I read Camus. I was always good at philosophy. I handed in my assignment, expecting the usual full marks. My professor rejected it. I re-read it carefully, and realized that my facile, “popular” interpretation was indeed inadequate. I handed in my new assignment, expecting the worst. Got full marks.
Sometimes, we read the wrong sources, or we do not read enough, and our pride and confidence keeps us from seeing what is obvious to others, akin to how proofreaders spot simple mistakes the author misses despite reading the text multiple times.
I think the takeaway is that university won't provide you with exclusive knowledge, you have the capability to acquire the same levels of knowledge externally. But university can provide the opportunity to foster a truly deep and robust understanding of a subject by utilising your classmates, bouncing ideas off each other, asking professors for a more detailed explanation / help understanding, practical applications in STEM fields etc. It also makes it easier to open additional doors down the road into employment / PhDs.
Will Hunting: "You just dropped 50 grand on a f***ing education you could have got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library"
Alex: Indeed I did
yes but the problem is that employers now have created a system where they only hire from universities, where certain professions and industries will only hire from the most prestigious universities. therefore most students aren't really interested in the education itself but using it as a passport to a certain career. Most universities know this too (perhaps Oxford and Cambridge are different I dont know, perhaps someone from there can give their opinion) and therefore have just created a factory to push students through taking large fees in return. Essentially the whole thing is one cynical con business.
@@zatarawood3588 I'm at Oxford and this does seem to be the case. I think with technical fields there's less of an institution bias when it comes to hiring people, but having the right connections can give a huge head start. I think it's worst in things like law firms where they just don't care abiut you unless you've got the credentials.
@@zatarawood3588 I don't think it's a bad thing to focus hiring on graduates though, because a degree is just certification that they've had the neccesary "training". But way too many jobs think it's better to hire grads when it doesn't actually make a difference. If you can show you have what it takes, degree or otherwise, you should be considered!
@@kashu7691 A degree in engineering to design a plane I understand, same goes for a dentist fixing your teeth, but most jobs in public sector and private business only require a school level education. Those jobs still mandate a degree, with many of the sought after industries unofficially asking for high grades and most prestigious universities. I understand partly why they do it. Its to easily sift out those people who can focus on something and work hard at it for some long period of time. The absurdity though is that the skills you learn at university are usually completely irrelevant for the actual job. On top of this you sometimes get book smart people who cant actually think for themselves as thats not what modern higher education actually trains or tests you in. Result is a mismatch between people and jobs. Also you get a legion of young people jumping through hoops just to please employers and in the course of doing so become soulless slaves to the system.
@@zatarawood3588 i completely agree with you
Not a great argument made here. The main issue is that someone doing it in their spare time, unless they have rich parents, will not be able to afford to spend three years reading and understanding what they have read.
Not only that, but a tertiary course in a subject does not simply consist of reading sources you agree with.
That's the problem with the self-educated. With certain rare exceptions they tend to seek out sources that confirm their own preconceptions.
Not too expensive, and a lot of books can actually be found as free pdf’s, and it certainly isn’t more expensive than going to college for 4 years lol
@@Freebase. Yes, but you have no funding. You would have to pay rent and pay to eat food. You would have to find time outside working hours to read all these things.
@@nickwilliams8302 Very well put!
@@jamesprentice1956 James, in some places being a student means incurring a huge amount of debt. Some countries actually pay students to attend university, but not all.
A major premise of "learning" is that some people learn at home and other people learn in a class setting. It's just the way we are built. Some of my students are doing fantastically well during Covid - others are failing/struggling. So, I disagree that *anyone* can do it. Also - Where would a person start? What is the progression? What is the structure of your learning? Analysis of what you learn and feedback are so important. Linking subjects in later years is also important in many technical degrees - how do you do that? etc etc.
@1234 abcd That's a different argument. It's also a huge generalisation. Not every lecturer does their job as you describe. i.e. badly. I know many lecturers from different Uni's that don't do their job like that. Choosing the University and course are very important. If you are on a crap course with lecturers who behave like that then I am sorry to hear it but there are good courses out there.
I assume that the percentage of people who actually read on a regular base has decreased.
Cosmic Sceptic's video on 'how to read more' was actually the video that introduced me to him and his content, and he later helped me so much when I was going through bit of an existential crisis, in leaving my faith.
University is only really about signalling now. Anyone can learn everything in every university lecture from reading books from a library or PDFs online. There's literally no reason other than job prospects to go to University. I'm surprised more people didn't already know that.
“If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library.”
University librarian here, they are fabulous places, but have a lot more than books. Information comes in many different formats, and we arrange for access to it. Some of the online stuff we subscribe to costs thousands which a local public library won't have.
Of course it depends on the subject discipline you're studying. Philosophy is probably more book and journal related, but there are image archives, film and video, statistics, maps, etc.
I believe it depends on the subject. For a lot of majors involving working on projects (for me it was computer science), the group work is extremly valuable in my.opinion. I learnt a lot about teamwork, ideation and project management. None of these learnings were taught to us by a professor, they were aquired by all of us while going through the process of working together. That alone made it totally worth it to me.
Audible is great, I've read a lot more than ever before because I listen all the time
If u like science check out “the life scientific” on Apple podcasts
Self contradiction! You actually listened not read more. Listening provides really superficial understanding, based on research.
LibriVox is a good alternative. Free with ads or $3 to remove ads
@@oqoqay4787 i was speaking casually, but sure, I listen to a lot more books than I ever used to read. What research are you talking about? Because I don't have any real trouble understanding the books I listen to, although when I first started using Audible I would zone out and stop listen a fair amount, but you get used to it and focus on the words rather than the voice eventually. Much like when your reading, you'll stop reading individual words, it becomes subconscious, as you read more.
I agree with most of what you said regarding intelligence and universities. However, with most professions that require licensing, it is an absolute necessity to have a degree. You can read as many books as you want, but no certifying organization will allow you to practice it professionally. I'm currently in a masters program for clinical psychology. Most of what I'm learning is absolutely because of the books themselves, but you can't really minimize the importance of the interpersonal aspect of learning at a university. Especially in a field such as mine. It's a big reason why this whole pandemic has really dampened my mood. I feel like I'm missing out by having to do my classes virtually rather than in person.
Doing philosophy at UCL! Found formal logic daunting at first considering I didn’t do any maths/science a levels, but it’s actually really fun! It’s a great entry way into programming etc
It's so different from actual programming though. Some of the same principles underlie both, but in practical terms I don't think it helps much.
@@numbo655 fuck programming then 😂 I’ll flip patties in Mac Donald’s
@@numbo655 Yeah, it's like accounting, you won't learn it until you've done it.
The most important thing about universities, in my opinion, is that they force you to study, or otherwise you will fail the semester. and being afraid to fail something is one of the strongest motivators out there.
Thank you for helping clear my insecurities about learning about subjects that I’ve previously been fearful too due to being frowned upon given my inability to do them at Uni (Such as Maths or Philosophy :D).
There are a great many examples of philosophers doing their work outside the context of a university, notably Bacon and Leibniz. The ancient Athenian school of Neoplatonism, for instance, was just a bunch of lads reading Plato, discussing his ideas, and writing commentaries on various classical pieces of philosophy. I think the other elements of studying philosophy, besides reading, are tutoring, conversation, and most importantly, meditation. If you have all of those: a good teacher who can work with you one-on-one, knowledgeable interlocutors, and leading questions that can open new paths of thought, you have a solid environment for the pursuit of philosophy.
That is such a ridiculously simplistic view of learning its sad that he’s proving his own point by it. Seems to have missed the library isles with psychology of learning and sociology of knowledge books.
Indeed.
Literary and philosophical criticism is expensive, and a book can't take the time to explain something in a different way if the first way is unclear to the student. Books don't give you deadlines and assessments, which are in essence training to eventually publish criticism yourself and thus contribute to the field. Sure, some people are probably capable of self-learning and arriving at a point where they can analyse ideas and produce valid criticism or develop ideas further, but these people are a small minority.
The idea that you can just skip university and go to your local library for the same effect, or to have the same resources, is ridiculous. University libraries are WAY more specialised than public libraries. On top of that, if you're not at university you probably have to work for a living, so the suggestion that people can spend that time at a library is also ridiculous.
Universities also provide an environment for debating and discussing ideas as well as feedback on your own methods of analysis.
I know it's not fashionable to defend universities, and I'm the first to recognise their weaknesses, like a tendency to push certain ideologies or interpretations over others, or the price of tuition, but your argument seems, at least to me, easily refutable. I'd like to see a list of great contributors to any of the humanities disciplines who was self educated. I bet it's pretty short.
Wow! This sounds so different from my university experience in Canada. It sounds like you’re working with the material on a much deeper level. I wish our system was more like that.
I think that in matters of pure knowledge, University is no longer special, you could probably learn just as fast if not faster on your own.
The true "plus" of going to university nowadays resides more in the methods you're taught than in the material themselves (tough branches of academia like medicine definitely rely on loads of knowledge). People who went to university tend to make less assumptions, go look for sources more etc, and in general, show more rigor in their work.
It may seem "just so easy" for anyone to go online and read free books but 99% of us either lack the motivation, ability to tell which books are relevant or ability to objectively understand the material without help.
Let's be honest; online games, pornography, social media and Hollywood movies pose such a great distraction, free information is a double edged sword.
I can't imagine 50-100 years from now what it will be like when everyone zetta(10^24)bytes? of information instantly accessible via neuralink.
I'm so glad you started this channel.... Mostly it's like something will come in between and I won't be able to finish a video more than 30 mins... I was so much anticipating something like this from you from quite a while.... You definitely have our support keep going
I don't buy his argument completely, especially the way he describes his education:
He first says "then you go through everything with your tutor, a world class expert on the topic". Then he says, you can essentially all do it on your own in a library.
At the very end he shortly mentions that you could get feedback online from people on your blog.
I think there is still a big difference between regular (e.g. weekly) feedback from someone who is a) an expert and b) has many years of experience mentoring students vs. unreliable/delayed feedback (you might not get an answer to your blog for a few months) from potentially less experienced people.
Especially when you're starting out, guidance is very important. Oxford gives you this from day 1 and the more you progress the less feedback/guidance you get. Online feedback on the other hand, works the other way round: at the beginning nobody knows you or your blog and you yourself don't really know who to talk to etc. And only after a few years you will get reliable high quality feedback.
I usually like his logical way of arguing, but here he should have either admitted those counterarguments or provide reasons why they're not true.
I feel like university gives a little bit of guidance. At least for me it helped, in the sense of where to start and where to go to. But at the same time someone could read the curriculum and make their own progress.
In my experience the tutoring and discussion part is what really makes the difference.
omg.. are u serious? you dont use the internet dont you, u can literally do that online, WE BOTH ARE DOIN THIS RIGHT NOW, omg people that comment this bullshit triggers me so hard.
As a second year Psychology and Philosophy student at a Canadian university (the University of Windsor, the focus is very heavy on continental philosophy), the difference in terms and lengths of study are interesting. Depending on the class, it's either a 12 week term studying 4 texts, or, it's a 12 week term studying 1-2 texts per week.
I think Alex underestimates in this clip the benefit of a good university curriculum, structure, deadlines, a curated library, access to individuals who are already experts in the texts assigned, and the impact social interaction has on learning. Though I want to believe in what he is saying, it is not that easy. Not everyone is well trained in critical thought and reason, nor is well trained in reading comprehension. Not everyone has the guidance to not go into a dark turn upon reading dense and worldview destabilizing philosophical texts. Though we have the ability to learn, it is beyond helpful to have a guide who pushes us to do what we may not want to, who challenges us, and who will push us toward true mastery.
Im sure Alex would agree with the more nuanced arguments in the comments but the important thing to take away is that the value of doing the reading out weighs the cost of university and you can do it for free.
Do u plan on updating ur website with a reading list and some of ur own papers? It would be extremely helpful to a lot of ppl like me who can’t afford to go to uni
Didn't he already do it?
I think Alex has responded to this differently in the sense that he wouldn't have studied this in the online form (context: Covid), and he appreciated his time at Oxford for being able to debate colleagues at pubs.
BUT THE BUILDINGS LOOK SO NICE..
but in all seriousness, without the universities we wouldn't know right now what to read... Or where to start..
With all the readily available reading material out there, there is also a lot of BS.. And the better the university, the better it is at filtering out the BS.. at least, ideally..
This is completely wrong, the universities know what we should read? I suggest you ponder over this for a while and realize how nonsensical this sounds. This comment is humorous on many levels and I hope you'll come to understand one day looking back on it.
@@leadbellymidnightangel Maybe if I went to a better university, I wouldn’t have said such nonsense.
Just kidding, ok let me ponder for a while.
....
Nah sorry kid, I’m still right. A university isn’t just its books, it’s also a refined curriculum based on a systematic learning curve that (again, ideally) values time and quality. It introduces the student to new material within an area they are already interested in.
I’m not saying they *should* have this privileged function, but it is kind of what happens when there’s a physical place in time and space dedicated to knowledge- and learning development existing for hundreds of years. Now, I can see this occurring in an ‘online university’ setting also, but that’s more or less mimicking the classical university model anyway.
It’s fine to be autodidactic, especially in 2020, but you might not get where you want as quickly and efficiently as otherwise. And you also miss out on the opportunity to contribute to said body of knowledge that’s in constant refinement and passed on to newcomers year after year.
So my advice to you? If you’re gonna play “I’m so smart on the internet” I suggest you argue your case instead of just spewing arrogant proclamations.
When I started reading your comment, I was actually getting excited thinking “oh good, this man is so confident in himself he’s got to have some good arguments” but then it just ended prematurely and disappointingly so.
You're a little more optimistic than myself. Universities are still barring certain kinds of knowledge production from the public. Access to their libraries and resources is still a massive privilege.
So, apart from the expert feedback from tutorials and the motivation provided from being virtually forced to do the work, university doesn't give you anything (at least for philosophy). Except that those are two pretty massive things it does give you.
It's soo interesting to listen to you! Thank you!
I couldn't help noticing that you vastly underestimated the size of Jefferson's library. It was around 9 to 10 thousand volumes in size. You can check out the detailed history here for more info: www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefflib.html
(This correction does not at all impede your general point, I'm just a pedant).
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Actually, the correction does put his whole argument in question: reading on your own will inevitably lead to similar situations, either because you misread, misinterpret or read the wrong sources. Universities provide a place for discussion, so that others may correct you. Sure, you can find this on the Internet (or at your local pub) but they may not be as reliable: different people congregate in different places.
Perhaps he simply forgot, and, you may argue, once you finish University you will still be left alone. To which I say two things: firstly, it is not entirely true: most provide alumni access (especially online - admittedly I don’t use mine) and most academics frequent “university groups”. Secondly, and more importantly, university teaches you academic discipline, and instills the habit of constantly questioning yourself (especially if you study philosophy).
Most people I know who I consider well-read lack this (to be fair, most university graduates I know lack this as well, but the difference is that in the latter case it is usually the fault of the students, who only pursued the certificate, not the university experience).
Thank you.
I feel there are a great many of us who wish we chose differently when younger. I'm only 22. However, I wish I had chosen philosophy in some manner, rather than law with legal philosophy.
Yet, this video enlivens to me to the idea that I may have that very experience of philosophy that I wished for. I think its a common story for many. And thank you for allowing that idea to come about for me. Its very relieving.
22 is very young, lots of people start their first year in uni at that age. It gets tricky after mid 20's
Admittedly you are right, if your goal is to gain knowledge. But university is also about getting a degree and getting society to value your supposed knowledge. I mean theoretically people could do the same things on their own, but for many this is not a question of dedication, but finance. I'm sorry, but for someone who studies at a uni that costs 10 000 in courses fee it comes across a bit snarky ...
Just found your channel a week ago and I’m in love
Meanwhile it’s a toss up whether or not my professors will respond to an email or, if they do, whether it takes them less than a week to get back. The library is blocked for the Corona virus. The book store was annoyed with me for wanting to special order a book. I am grateful that Barnes & Noble is nearby and I have been reading my own growing library. The “student-life” hasn’t been completely wasted. It’s freeing to have the time to obsess even if “free” means $50K of debt
Checking in from: Arkansas USA 📍 🗺
I’m currently doing a PhD in neuropharmacology, and I agree with some of the comments about STEM experimental/technical difficulties with this strategy. Experience working in a lab can absolutely occur outside of academia, the important difference is that when you’re a graduate student your mentor will invest more time into training you then say a technician. It’s hard to imagine a setting where this is possible outside of academia, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t possible.
I should say they will invest time into training you because they are paid to do so.
Agree to some extent, but there are a few advantages of university other than access to information and motivation
1. Structured learning
2. Feedback and correction
3. Pier support and networking
4. Exposure to different views, ideas
5. For more practical subjects eg. science, engineering, medicine - Practical skills and experience
As a science grad, I think there’s a big difference between knowledge and understanding
PS In my opinion the best thing about philosophy is not the ideas themselves, but it teaches people how to think in an intensely rational way and structure arguments clearly. Most people can’t do this...it’s a highly underrated skill. The feedback component here is important, as well as discussion with peers.
So for me, there are two things that attending a university helps with. The first is motivation, but that is a consequence of you wanting to achieve the second thing.... and that is the "instant recognition" that our society has placed on qualifications. When you apply for any position, for whatever reason (monetary or experiential gain), those who admit you into that position need a some metric with which to determine who is the best person to fill that position. We measure force in terms of newtons. We measure people in terms of qualifications (at least in this context). If your only goal is knowledge, neither of those factors apply.
Yes you can read on your own. But you read far less efficiently - otherwise people tend to self select books they think they'll agree with. However objective you think you are, it's good to have a bunch of different more knowledgeable people guiding your reading, and then, most importantly, challenging you in discussing it, and pointing out lazy assumptions and interpretations. Plus the supplementary societies and language classes and lectures you can take advantage of at a University like Oxford are unparalleled, to say nothing of the good it does to one's intellectual life to have equally nerdy friends which the University naturally facilitates.
I have a couple of challenges to your essay:
1. Most people need guidance to develop the skills for efficient pursuit of knowledge and wisdom. The internet contains an incomprehensible volume of raw data, discussions, and analyses. It also has an equal volume of crap. A good professor suggests where to begin with the fundamental literature of a subject, which then leads toward the current state of understanding of the subject and ultimately to the unanswered questions that beg for investigation. (S)he also provides guidance on how to distinguish truth from fantasy and lies. (If you’ve paid any attention to American politics recently, you realize that a large proportion of the population has no idea how to do that.)
2. Formal educational institutions are far more than sources of books. Here is one of my all time favorite quotes, of which Google failed to find the author: “Students don’t go to university to learn the wisdom of their elders; they go there to question it”. Online forums rarely have the discipline to maintain civil, productive discourse. They tend to devolve into bitter and petty altercations.
I totally agree with the pdf thing, I read calculus 1,2 and 3, linear algebra, and complex nos free. Damn I love PDFs.
This is so valuable. The internet is great.
You should to University if you want to be an academic person, perhaps a professor but if you are just looking forward to being an informed person he is right.
Here’s two things that university provide you that you can’t get elsewhere:
1. Readily access to professionals in a subject - You *can* access professionals without going to university. It is a lot more complicated and tasking to get in reach with professionals. Even then, you can’t get that same connection if you weren’t in university. The university makes you write essays, correct, but you can’t just call up a professional to help you out with your essay. I severely doubt and if I’m wrong tell me.
2. The qualifications to get a job - You can learn anything at home, just because you have, doesn’t mean it will make landing a job easier. Having that degree leads to a better success rate at finding jobs and you can get higher positions. Of course this varies a lot for the subject. Philosophy majors don’t tend to get a philosophy job out of college, but look at chemistry. Yea you could get all the knowledge by yourself, but having a degree is pretty much a safer consolidation for businesses to choose you.
Additional benefits:
- When you pay for school, your school gives you access to a ton of research that you would otherwise have to pay for out of pocket
- You can build connections with professionals way easier and they’ll actually help you get internships/jobs and at the very least point you to the right direction
- University gives you that sense of direction that is much harder to achieve on your own. I admire anyone who can just sit down and teach themselves an entire degrees worth of material, because you have to nail direction, motivation, any bumps you hit along the way with learning, etc. It’s a talent not everyone has and it’s unreasonable to assume most people can just teach themselves a degrees worth
I don't go to university to have access to books, there are libraries and bookstores fot that (online or not). I go to university to have access to experts in the fields I'm interested in.
And that's what universities are for, or at least what they should be. If you think universities are only a way to have access to books it's obvious that nowadays they are useless, but the premise is wrong.
*I study philosophy.
You won’t get access online to most books. Universities pay for access to publishers ebooks. You can learn yourself, with COVID19 it is far less interactive. Even if you read the stuff yourself your retention will be lower than having to consolidate it through essays and exams. Additionally what you’ve read yourself isn’t acknowledged a formal qualification is.
I think this perfectly works for philosophy and other similar subjects in the humanities. There are plenty of free translations of Plato, Bruno, Kant, and others, plus some free critical editions of the texts in the original language. Even the copyrighted translations are not that costly.
Thanks Alex for this statement. It gives me a little more encouragement to read and study philosophy on my own having heard an Oxford student saying I could do it.
Jefferson had over 6,000 books when Congress purchased them to seed the LOC.
You also get funding from the government to do that all day. You wouldn’t be able to do that unless you had savings and time on your hands.
In 6th form and have retaken year 12 due to mental health and the uk lockdown set me back. I’m beginning to believe that the education system wasn’t made to meet my needs as a student and thinking of dropping out. I think doing it on my own may even be easier.
I have adhd and ive been feeling the same way. I just can't learn the way they need me to in order to meet their deadlines. Especially since quarantine. It's been living hell.
@@butterflypaint4332 not being offered support either?
I think the best introduction to philosophy is to read Gorgias (Plato), Five Dialogues (Plato), Discourse on the Origin of Inequality (Locke) and Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion. Getting through those isn't that hard and the dialogue format is clearly the best way to teach philosophy.
I hate people who say ‘aur mee gawshhh just read books instead don’t do an entire degree of the subject’ People do degrees because it pressures them and motivates/disciplines them to keep going. It’s hard (not impossible tho) to discipline yourself to study philosophy in-depth by JUST reading textbooks or books. A degree keeps people disciplined, motivated, and on track, which is why they do it in the first place. It’s more structured and you learn from experienced professionals. It’s harder to study philosophy on your own by just reading. And even if you cope with ‘just reading’, philosophy textbooks don’t provide you with the full nature and scope of the philosophy subject.
People are too busy taking selfies and then faking their best life to others.
I do agree that today we have easy access to information, but it doesn’t mean that it is all we need to master a subject. It also doesn’t mean that all that information is useful, complete, or even trustworthy. The universities and research institutions are essential to produce and spread knowledge based on scientific evidence. We know that even them have the risk of bias towards a particular way of thinking, but they are often reviewed by peers from other institutions, they have theirs ideas challenged, and have a degree of transparece that we cannot get look for a subject on our own, not at the limit of our knowledge, not to master it. So I wouldn’t underestimate the importance of having an academic experience in a university.
thank you for the feedback, but I think there will be many different books at Oxford than the ones in my local Library...
I dote upon the academic life at universities.
I failed my school qualifications, a horticulture course, a college high tier GCSE, but I have got a B-Tec Foundation qualification in English and Mathematics.
I would love to do a degree in philosophy but I haven't got the brains.
I listen to this when I need a reminder of how I am supposed to be approaching my course. Thanks.
I see your point, but you can read as much as you want, it doesn't mean that you'll understand what you reading. And reading alone doesn't mean you'll be knowledgable. I can read something and not actually know what it means. Like if you take it to its extreme, one can literally read all the words in a text successfully but may not know what they mean when pieced together
To add to other comments, one doesn't receive student finance for reading books all day! Unless you have additional time sufficient enough to get a job or your parents have enough money to support you, this isn't feasible
Thanks a lot for everything man.
Big fan of yours man! Greetings from a Brazilian friend. 🇧🇷
As a dyslexic i ve had to educate myself. I ve studied philosophy sociology.if you can discuss these subjects, its so similar to a university. Thing is it does nt come with a degree. Jobs , careers are well link with employment. Where i m from its hard to go to university, afterall its not free and don t forget libraries are closing now too ! The internet is the only alternative, and not always free unless you can afford to buy books . I m lucky as i can buy many books to help me study. I know what like to be discouraged from education Its having the confidence which i try to instill in younger people. Always remembering of course not to sound to patronising to them.
This only applies to "past oriented" topics. Most engineering topics require expensive and hard to come by equipments that only university labs (or big companies) have. In most fields I am familiar with, the university professors are forefront developers of new ideas and technologies that only their students get to learn and be familiarised with; giving them a good 3~5 years competitive advantage to students one "mid/bottom tier" universities who never even heard of these new and soon to become popular ideas.
I would say for undergraduate science degrees, it makes no difference that university professors are "forefront developers". When you are starting out learning the topic you don't need experts teaching you, you just need good teachers teaching you. I am at a relatively prestigious UK university doing physics and my professors are leading the field, but they are terrible teachers. Buying good books for my subjects help infinitely more than they do.
Would you not agree that the best environment to learn about philosophy is to be in discussion? Wouldn't it be better to be guided by experts and in discussion with classmates to do this? They catch us out on the mistakes or logical mishaps that sometimes we never see ourselves. That's how we find truth. As much as we can pride ourselves in improving our skills in managing confirmation bias and other biases, we can never truly objectively see our own arguments. That's what makes universities (at least in terms of studying philosophy) so great, is that they provide the perfect environment to study this.
Secondly, realistically, who on this planet has the time to dedicate to just reading books and will actually stick to it without deadlines? I know I certainly wouldn't, and I'd acknowledge I just have shit motivation and discipline, but apparently thats pretty common...
I hope you'll update your Oxford reading list soon if you still plan to do it :)
that's because your situation is a very especial one, but it cannot apply to everyone, not even to the majority. Your education system sounds like is more individual research. In the US you cannot get the same education studying by yourself as someone who completed a 4-year program. And it's not only about learning and knowing, but about what to do with the knowledge and how to do it, and that's the experience you get in college with taught courses discussing every single day with experts in the field. Plus you associate with people that relate to your subject. Plus it's not good to homeschool too much hahaha, you need to get to know the world and other people. You learn more by experiencing and studying than by studying alone. Anyway, there are these and many other reasons university is essential. I think your situation is just a very special one. Try other countries and subjects.
Hi Alex. You seem like a really good bloke and I'd love to buy you a pint. But one more fundamental difference between Oxford and the rest of UK unis that you seemed to have missed is that most working class students cannot afford both rent and to sit and read all day, even with the full student loan. I was lucky enough to be in Cambridge a good few years ago. My sister is looking at Leicester in 2024 and she's looking at £950pm rent! F*cling Leicester! 🤣
I like the idea of university. I always wanted to self learn but the plethora of information on the internet overwhelms me. What I dislike about university is that I don’t get the time to dig deeper into learning the information and testing.
It is necessary for many occupations to have a university degree.
yeah, that's the only reason. university is unecessary to get educated or informed. you can find all the info on the internet or a libary. literally everyone goes to college these days and the majority are dumb and don't know anything out of their own profession
The main benefit the Internet now offers is that of the Comment Section. All the wisdom of the ages is accumulated here.
(I suppose a wise man would self-contradict whatever irony is contained in the first of this hadith-sentence to produce a more balanced view.)
Possibly the process of "education" requires some new analysis. ("Lysis" being the cutting up of things, I'm told, so I'll just assume that this is what that means). This, that, what, wait?
"Presentation", "Evaluation", "Processing" ... sorry, this is the comments section, so there's not space for a comprehensive dissection. (You're meant to laugh at the idea of a "comprehensive" dissection, now ... but I forget why)
At least in the comments section you have the benefit of being blessed with the meanderings of the less humble of the world's unstable minds?
Cut it up, cut it up, chop chop chop. Now each piece can be given the love and attention it individually deserves. It might even be given its own specialist.
Presenter. Evaluator. Manager. Staff.
The manager directs your studies. The staff ask how high when you say jump.
Sorry, I now have to go and take my uncle for his schizophrenia injection. (This is actually literally true, but it might be amusing in an eighteenth century kind of amusement mode to wonder whether this "uncle" is just one of the personalities of the writer, itself, in all its majesty and glory, as you bow and bob in the correct compass directions to ensure my light to shine upon thee.) Sayonara.
Loved the clip! 💜 I totally agree, not a lot of people self educate.
Going to university (for philosophy and sociology) was the biggest mistake of my life. I drove myself insane (literally) being stuck at home all the time trying to keep on top of crazy reading lists. I had no social life, no job, no hobbies nothing because uni work ate up all my time. We had 8 hours of contact time in year 1 and 2, 4 hours in year 3. Remind me again what my £9000 a year was for? The irony was I actually used to read more before I went to uni because it's easy to plough through a book you've chosen, are interested in, like etc. But when you have to read something (even something you might otherwise be interested in) on a deadline it feels like a chore. I think for some university is great but for others it's really not worth it. Nothing to do with intelligence either more the style of your thinking and learning.
Nice video!
Hey, can you make a video talking about social sciences?
My main goal has always been to dedicate my life, to the movements and changes I´d like to see in my not so developed country: Mexico.
I like most social sciences, but think that philosophy gives you more thinking/mental tools for your professional and personal life. For me, it's like studying mathematics, which by doing lots of proofs and being so abstract, will give you awesome thinking skills; rather than doing engineering, which in most cases, will evade proofs and being too abstract.
Thanks in advance!
Fantastic information bro thank you.
Thank you so much for this ❤
This is one of the most inspiring videos I've ever seen. Actually, it didn't told me anything I didn't know yet, but it reaffirms my aspiration to be a life-time learner. I'm building my own library on Kindle (unfortunately pirating the vast majority of books, I have no money enough). (Actually you should do a video about this topic: must knowledge be free or not?) and, at the moment it hast like 4000 books, like Thomas Jefferson's one. It is really amazing how, as things use to become more accesible to the public, the less are valued by the people (maybe this claim does not apply universally but you get my point). Actually, If you're reading this (I know there's a bunch of comments and you're busy with RUclips and University, no problem) I wanna thank you for the recommendation you made in one of your videos, on 'go read the first chapter of Animal Liberation, anything else'. I followed your advice and now I decided to become a vegan, just after I become financially free. Thank you very much, I really appreciate your work, Alex. Greetings from Bolivia.
People don't go to University to educate themselves. They go for the piece of paper that gets them interviews above the guy who says he's read a bunch of books but didn't graduate high school.