The Coup de Jarnac: Not So Devious!
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- Опубликовано: 17 сен 2019
- The term comes from a famous judicial duel in France in 1547, between Guy Chabot de Saint-Gelais, baron de Jarnac and François de Vivonne, seigneur de La Châtaigneraye. It's often used in a derogatory manner, implying that it's a "dirty trick" or some sort of backstab. As my HEMA instructor Erik Bailey and are demonstrating based on our interpretation of different accounts of that duel, it's not so unusual, nor outrageous.
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#dueling #history #technique
Really interesting and fascinating with analysis of historical duels. Please do more if you can find sources!
I agree. This was a lot of fun!
Agree
Yeah these kind of videos are the best
"Sire, I beseech you very humbly to grant me the privilege of MORTAL KOMBAT"
"TEST THY MIGHT"
Commissar LORD Bern *theme song starts to play on the harpsichord *
@@ronytheronin7439 Not a harpsichord, but here
ruclips.net/video/G7bCDBkrtjk/видео.html
"PROUVEZ-VOUS VOTRE PUISSANCE!"
"I'll give you one last chance to rescind your insult of calling me a common dandy!"
"NEVAH!"
He was the least common of dandies, I'm sure.
Dammit, Keitel....
Aha! Straight through me!
"If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics suck" - John Steinbeck
It's over Anakin, I have the high ground!
If you win an unfair fight, you won a real fight
This was one of my favourite videos from you in a while. Learning more about specific duels in history and breaking down the equipment, tactics, etc was great. Do more of these if possible, great job with the images as well.
I second that!
Count me in
Agree 100%
Same!!
Gonna make a comment, but someone beat me to it, with a heart from Skallagrim no less! So I'm another fan of this, I can enjoy a whole series of this kind of breakdowns, and I also really like that it was easy enough to follow who the characters were.
The â in "Châtaigneraye" indicates there used to be an s after the a in a former, more archaic version of the word. So yeah Châtaigneraye, Chastaigneraye: same shit.
Also your french is very good
Thats interesting to note. Thanks for the info!
True statement. I can confirm.
Damn i commented the same thing before i read this and i thought i commented twice on accident
I was actually quite impressed, it's not often that native English speakers have this accuracy when it comes to pronunciation in french , props to you skall.
@@dewidumortier8552 I think he comes from somewhere in Europe, I think he just knows English really well.
No skall. I can't say I've ever heard of that term.
I can, but I'd be lying
Using Numidium against the population of Summerset Isles and killing thousands of citizens is a coup de jarnac
Well, you're not a Breton so that's understandable... wait, you are a Breton though!
I learned it from Eternal Sonata, but I didn't know what it actually met.
"my French is a little rusty"... I would love to speak like that 🤣
Yeah I almost sound like I'm choking on yogurt 😂
@@hari4374 so do most Canadian frenchies
I'm a native French speaker, and Skall's accent is bluffing. It's the best French accent I've heard from an English-speaking RUclipsr for sure.
@@falcon8752 French is our Second Language in Canada. As a Quebecer, I think his accent was pretty good.
@@narakagati5872 Look a joke no one has ever heard before. How original!
On one hand I really like this. I wouldn't mind a series about recreations and discussions of duels at all.
I'd have liked a bit more history. You covered the setup pretty well, but there was nothing about the aftermath.
While the skilled, sure fighter lay bleeding to death the commoners looted his victory feast.
Prince Henry was very disappointed at the result of the duel, and while poor Châtaigneraie was laying helpless on the ground, bleeding from his leg, Henry at first refused to admit his champions' defeat, which was very awkward for everyone involved. Prince's behaviour was widely seen scandalous, and 'judicial duels' were banned not long after this.
Lots of bets were made about the result. Jarnac's fencing coach bet heavily on his student to win, and made good money.
They say the most dangerous opponent to a skilled swordsman isn't another skilled swordsman but an amateur since you can't tell what's in their head.
That is 100% correct. Having gone from newbie to intermediate, I'm more cautious and hesitant with the newer people. You know after a certain level of training and experience someone you attack is going to try and intelligently defend themselves, where as newbies might just lash out in panic, or try and beat you to the punch, resulting in a double.
Im not skilled but if I spar with new guy in my club, I always use giocco largo (playing in large distance in bolognese style)
Sorry for bad english
CMIIW
This is true even in fist fighting, I’ve taken mma classes as well as boxing for a few years. Whenever I spar or actually fight with someone with no training, because they flail around with no intent for a specific attack it’s more difficult to fight
@@Reikuma-X I'm from a TK background and was about to say the exact same thing.
The amount of times I've been taken down by a complete newbie is kind of insane. They have a tendency to do unorthodox, perhaps unintentionally tricky moves because they just do whatever they see that may somehow work. With a complete newbie, these actions have a very high risk, high reward style where they can decently often catch experienced opponents off guard, but often leave themselves wide open for retaliation should their move be avoided.
The most hard to deal with for me is people who have a moderate or above level of skill and training, while also keeping that unorthodox and experimental mindset of 'whatever works, works'. It's easy to defend against a manoeuvre you've practiced against ten-thousand times in the orthodox of your tradition. Not so much when someone randomly tackles you by grabbing your left ankle while positioned to the right of your body.
You did not mentionned that the audiance looted the feast that Chataigneray had already prepared for is sure victory while he was bleeding to death
Rig0p ouch
All that ommelete du fromage... imagine it....
@@bernardoheusi6146 IMO there would be more baguettes
Actually baguettes are super recent, like post WWII so no Victory Baguette for Jarnac...
@@iopklmification fine have some more ordinary random pain from some random boulangerie then
I don't particularly know why, but that ending shot of Skall and his instructor menacingly advancing towards the camera was one of the funniest things I've seen in a while.
I am rather curious how a master swordsman would fall for such a basic maneuver.
Then again, we all have our bad days.
And sometimes, those are our last days.
Being better doesn't necessarily make you invincible.
...and being overly confident against an opponent you "know" as an untrained will not help you. And the arm thing would be a thing he maybe never experienced. Plus it stopped him from using his preffered method of ramming his opponent into the ground...
@LUNAR BLOODDROP or hangover
At school I had the opportunity to face of against the under21 National Champion (Foil). I was good, County Level contender, but definitely not in his league and I won the match by using 5 straight overextended lunges. Fast, dirty, and not something you'd do if you had skill parity with your opponent, but it worked because it was basic, fast, and not a usual opening move. The archetypal "beginer's luck" behaviour, use something atypical to confuse a more skilled opponent's responses, that and the feeling of "oh f*** I 'm so outclassed" dumping an overwhelming amount of adrenaline in your system.
Over confident is a slow and insidious killer
I think the simplest cut is the most likely, I've landed that strike hundreds of times with dozens of different sword and shield combos. Describing it as a bread-and-butter maneuver is quite apt.
Same, but I doubt him having done a super common strike would have resulted in people naming it after him. My guess would be that it's either the falso cut on the inside or him whacking both of his opponent's legs from under him.
@@penttikoivuniemi2146 possibly, but also remember that the classical definition of the cut named after him is a surprise attack or stab in the back none of which appear in the accounts of the duel and none of the dual accounts show a shot which would be dishonorable or deceptive according to the standards of the time. That leads me to consider that the name of the maneuver could be a smear levied against him. Afterall how best to undermine the victor of a dual then to make the Dual Victory appear dishonorable.
I have always thought that Jarnac made some sort of lunge (which Italian masters would later become famous for).
I don't think the worst cut is the most likely, because then it wouldn't be named after him.
As a French: you're French accent is excellent !
(I'm truly impressed x)
And Chateigneray is very well pronounced
on est d'accord. skall prononce le français comme un autochtone.
I was too but he’s Canadian tho
@@JasV13 he is from europe ;) he only moved there
Hé bah dis donc, il y a du beau monde ici...
Jarnac's cut is pretty popular story in fencing, but this analysis is pretty great. I always thought it was just a standard cut at knee from blocking a vertical cut. These other options are really interestling.
There’s no dirty moves in war and battle only tactics also loved that you played the Mortal Kombat sound when you highlighted the word mortal combat.
A lot of history from the medieval and ancient eras seems like legend as if a lot of it is embellished by historians mainly the victors
What about a stab in the dick?
@@habibohabibo1627 a nurse did that to me once. Very painful!
If you are in a fair fight, then you have done something wrong.
In France "Coup de Jarnac" describes a surprisingly clever, skilled and violent maneuver, often viewed as a "killing blow". It does sometime have a negative connotation like sneaky or coward, but it really depends on the situation and the "tone" used.
Also the expression is only used by grandpas and historians today ^^
I'm french BTW
That Italian fencing master who coached Jarnac, what do we know of him and his style? Edit: Perhaps the phrase carries the same meaning as "hail Mary pass" does for American football, Divine intervention. In the Middle Ages, a duel served to determine Divine favor. In the Renaissance, the better fighter was supposed to win. When the lesser fighter won anyway, who knows?
I'd be willing to believe that people got very salty about him winning, especially because he chose something that hindered the main fighting style of the other guy. So they resorted to trying to turn his victory into an insult. Describing it as luck or cowardice.
+Retanaru Isn't the whole point of letting the challenged to choose the weapons to show you are willing to give him any advantage they want? Would be weird if someone was criticized for taking it.
@@Retanaru Actually according to my teacher in French university of history the term was first used to describe a skillful move and was very positive, but overtime and through the prism of more modern values it slowly became negative. One aspect that made it look good in the eyes of the audience was that it wasn't a lethal blow, and people considered he spared the life of de Vivonne. However, de Vivonne later ripped his own bandages out of shame and die, but people still appreciated that Jarnac didn't try to kill his opponent in the duel.
@@gwennblei thank you for that, I was hoping to more Info on the aftermath.
@@gwennblei source? where can I read more about the aftermath.
I honestly love this kind of video! Recreation of how historical duels went down and the precedents they set a super fucking joy to watch.
This was a really innovative video! Im not sure Ive ever seen anyone else do a video describing their interpretation from a historical narrative like this and I would love to see more of this. It reminds me of matt eastons older videos where he talks about accounts in Kinsleys "swordsmen of the british isles" but adding the interpretation is a whole new level!
I really liked this video. Explaining a historical technique or action, showing art from the time or from manuals depicting the action and the people involved, a demonstration by you and your instructor, and a verbal explanation. Great video, Skall.
I love this video! The overall quality is insane. I adore how much effort and passion you put into these videos :)
The Frenchman I am is amazed by your accent Skall, bravo messire! I would add the the "coup de Jarnac" earned a negative connotation because Jarnac was a Protestant, so the latter hostile Catholic authors and rhetoricians turned the manoeuvre into a symbol of cowardice and duplicity.
Please make more videos like this it is very interesting and informative. As a fellow martial artist visual demonstration of actual historical duals are much appreciated and sorely needed.
The quality of your videos is getting really great, you kick ass Skall!
Thank you. :)
I love how guys who out think there enemy are always seen as cowards instead of what they really are is superior the whole goal of combat is defeat your enemy as fast as possible
Especially if it's a matter of life and death, do whatever dirty bullshit works. If somebody's trying to kill you, rip their balls off or stab them in the foot, fuck looking like an honourable prince in the process.
@@sigismundafvolsung5526 definitely agree fuck the rules throw sand in there eyes while you punch him in the throat
Enjoyed this. The idea of demonstrating the techniques not just describing them is excellent, please do more.
Fun fact
It sounds like "j'arnaque" which means "i scam"
Love all of your historical and archeological content :)
"Confess yourself a liar and restore to me my honor and live!"
Haha I was so happy to see this in my feed as the duel between Jarnac and Chataigneraye is one of my favorites. I was just reading the story on The Arma's website the other day which is very informational, by the way. I first heard about the duel in a documentary about duels of chivalry. I thought the story was so interesting I looked up more about it and found The Arma's website. I have even named video game characters I've created Jarnac Hau because I was so captivated by the tale. Thanks for the video on this duel as there are not many in English about it.
Very cool, and seeing more historical duel breakdowns would be really interesting
im gonna miss seeing erik once the moves all done
Man I love this format. Keep it up like that.
Thank you very much for this video.
*I'm French and I couldn't find a proper demonstration of the "coup de Jarnac" until I found your video.*
There's no such thing as "dirty" combat when your life's on the line...Jamac knew that..Lord knows Guy did with his prison inmate tactics.
If you are in a fair fight, then you have done something wrong.
Great video, remember reading an article about it and was struck by how calculating Jarnac and his camp were about the whole thing. Would love more videos where you go over and actually show how actual duels went down.
This was very interesting. You should do more of these analyses of historical duels if possible.
Hi there Skall ! Very interesting video and great French Pronunciation :) A few years back while studying history in France, our Teacher was discussing this duel with us in class, and he told us the same thing, it became known as a synonymous for backstab in the XIXth century, but it was definitely regarded with admiration at the time of Jarnac, who used the saying at that time to describe a skillful move. It's also note worthy that it was seen very positively as it wasn't supposed to be a lethal blow, which protected the life of de Vivonne. However Vivonne died because he ripped off his own bandages out of anger and shame, but people still liked that Jarnac didn't aim to kill.
Love this docu-drama reenactment style favourite video yet.
Great vid, I do like the hema explained vids, working out footwork is very intriguing
Bravo pour l'excellentre prononciation française !!!
Très intéressant ! Merci pour la vidéo.
Baguette
This was so interesting ! Would love to see more content like this
Good analysis,
hope to see more of them :D
I love the historical content you produce by far my favourite type of content from you brilliant 🦁
Une bien belle prononciation, compère Skallagrim ! Anyway, that was very interesting. I heard about the story of Jarnac and it's coup, but never saw a demo like what you did. Makes me want to practice it !
"The more you know!!" (Rainbow star over my head)
I loved this video, its very unique and very intriguing and very educating. Please do more if you’re able to. 😄
Why is it a secret attack? It's a part of the body that is hit and seems a logical move !!
Great video, more of these!
This is awesome! I would love more videos to be like this. Analyzing old techniques AND reenacting them in armor with a partner is precisely what we need :D
I freaking love it when knowledgeable fighters reenact the original fight techniques, then if possible, demonstrate a modification to the techniques for more practicality. You guys should do this with more movies and Netflix series.
I f**** love these type of videos. Thank you.
That was great! More of these, please! The music was a nice touch too haha
Love this video. Learned a new thing today!
This was super fun! If there's more sources of historical duels, this could be a really fun series
This was one of your best videos ever!
I'm French and you have a very good pronunciation. It's really cool to hear you saying « baron de Jarnac ». English speaker are in trouble for the french «r» but you say that perfectly
Now I know more than I ever could have wanted about a certain french duel. I love it.
Definitely would enjoy this as a series
Ah, great timing, just finished work for today!
This was really interesting, do more of these.
Good stuff. Interesting to see how techniques taught in HEMA were used in real-life situations.
Oooohhhh, more like this please. Very fresh and enjoyable.
So once again youtube has turned the notification bell off and I have had to turn it back on again, I don't know what's going on there, great video though skal, keep it up
There are no such things as "cowardly moves". When you fight, you fight to win.
@@TheGoodCrusader I've had this idea for awhile of playing a round of golf, but rather than using clubs to drive the ball across the green, the players would use cannons and would have to expertly measure their powder loads for each "swing" to make the golfball accurate.
I think it could become a very epic gentlemans sport. Although the putting will be very challenging.
When it was in that period you would have to be pretty careful with what you do. Cause in those times people were basically high on their honor. It would be much worse to lose your honor than to die. If you've lost it, you might as well be dead. And of course a strike to the groin would be pretty nasty and even the most evil person wouldn't do that. (That's just an example)
There are. If the majority thought your move was cowardly and you did not deserve to win they'd simply kill you. That's why you follow these unwritten rules, to appease the people who are judging the fight.
Rules don't exist in a vacuum, we don't like in one.
@@jorojoro2395: Even Japanese warlords employed spies and assassins to get things done, and that was a culture that was heavily profiled on it's concept of honour.
What you have to understand about any honour system is that they are always created by a ruling caste in order to subjugate the rest of society.
Plenty of honour based societies have gotten completely destroyed and taken over and terrorized by people who simply refuse to abide by those sets of "honourable" rules.
A good example would be the viking raids on christian monasteries on the british isles. To a christian, the idea of raiding and pillaging a monastery and killing monks would be unthinkable, because it would be a gross violation against christian honour and an affront to God.
But the Viking raiders didn't care. Because they did not belong to such an honour system. Which made them infamous among christains and feared not only as violent, but even to the point of demonic among the christian population.
Many cultures that ended up getting conquered by the Mongols also decried the Mongols ways of waging war to be "dishonourable".
At the end of the day, honour means nothing. What matters is who's dead and who's still standing. And if you kill an armed opponent as a public spectacle, people might think you fought dirty. But they're not going to mess with you the first chance they get.
@@TheGoodCrusader that might be a tad dirty
It's kind of interesting that in Gautier's "Le Capitaine Fracasse" the expression 'Coup de Jarnac' is used to indicate a masterstroke, a secret move that is almost impossible to parry or counter. Later on, the author actually had the main character (the Baron of Sigognac) parry such an attack twice from two different opponents. The logic was that most of the noblemen and swordmen of the time (the reign of Louis XIII) learned mostly these tricks, whereas Sigognac received a much more intensive training in the fundamentals, making his fencing less ornate and more practical.
Nice video skall like the idea behind it
Brilliant! Being French, I have spent all my life with that phrasing lingering in the background but I never looked into the fencing of it!
Skall, just wanna say that your French pronounciation is really good, especially for a Canadian :p
I Heard that the cut happened inside the leg, and It was lethal because It took one of the biggest artheries of the body. They Said that the italian coach instructed Jarnac to do this because he knew his opponent used to expose his right leg too much
Huh, never heard of it. But I like it. The article you linked was fascinating!!
If a youtuber moves do the people he used to film with still exist?
They're removed from the simulation and stored in cryo on the moon
As a french i must admit that your accent is really good! The way you say the french R sound that usually cause troubles to English speaker is quite impressive.
I never heard of the coup de Jarnac before. Very interessting, well explained and i especially appreciate the demonstration with your swords master. Though i agree with some other comments - a little bit about the aftermath (if sources mention it) would have been nice too. Lol those faces in the ending scene xD you guys are great
I found this very interesting and a valuable combat study!
Loved this video!
Merci pour cette intéressante analyse, et super accent élégant lorsque vous parlez français c'est un régale pour les oreilles.
JE vous souhaite une bonne continuation ^^.
As a historian this pleases me
Great video!
The duel took place at the Château de Saint-Germain, close to Paris, and there is still today a plaque saying "Here took place the famous duel said of the 'coup de Jarnac'."
And you are right about Châtaigneraye being written Chastaigneraye, as a common reason for a ^ on a vowel in 'recent' French is that there used to be an S following said vowel. Try it with words like "Forêt", "Hôpital", "Tempête", "Hâte", ...
Francois "Train? Nah brah, he's a punk."
Fight starts.
Francois "What the Schnit?!?"
You acquired my like through that glorious outro!
I'm a huge fan of all your vids. Pretty sure ive "Liked" everyone one over the last year-ish...but, these historical moments and short dissertations on historical moments are my favorite.
it is said, that the wound wasnt that bad.
that vivonne would have easily survived that wound.
but that that he refused to accept any doctors, so much shame he felt over his loss to a suposedly inferior opponent.
so he died a few days later.
Well, there were potentially three or four wounds, and the duel was a duel to the death. I reckon the shame of being left alive with the shame of losing to an inferior opponent with the shame of underestimating the importance of practice was a lethal combination.
I always love it when you have Erik in your videos. You two seem to have a good chemistry together. It's going to be sad when you move all the way across the country and he is no longer in your videos.
This was cool to learn!
"My french is rusty" Your french is clear and you're pronouncing the R proprely, perfect !
French can"t say R properly...
That moment of "MORTAL COMBAT!!" was hilarious!
Enjoyed that!!
Your French speaking is really good !
- From a French dude.
Please let me congratulate you on your outstanding french accent ! Much appreciated :)
Chastaigneraie would be the archaic spelling, you find quite a lot of words in french with the old "s" now written with the accent on the vowel.
Greetings from southwest france
Is the 's' or the accented 'a' still pronounced with an 's' sound in modern French?
@@sigismundafvolsung5526 â is never pronounced "as" nowadays, the accent is basically just there as a testimony of the old spelling. But as far as I know, when "as" is written, it is pronounced "as". For instance, "hôpital" (pronounced: o) is the new spelling for the old French word "hospital" (pronounced: os), which is identical to the current English word. I hope my explanation was clear enough. Thank you for your curiosity. :)
SkallPerfect: "Boom, son!" Or was it "Boom, monsieur!"
Your French accent is right, and for the writing, it has evolved since (Chastaigneraye, Chastaigneraie, Châtaigneraie...).
I was passing by after watching a French video on Jarnac's armor. As you mentioned, it's a specific type of armor that Jarnac asked to use to the duel (advised by the Italian master). Since Jarnac was the offended, he could impose this armor (at the last moment) for both of them, and it seemed to have put at disadvantage M. de la Châtaigneraie by reducing it's ability to move.
Moreover, François de Vivonne have been previously injured at the right arm during the campaign of Piedmont.
You can see it in the video I mentioned, timestamp 19:00 (I couldn't find an image):
"Ces ARMES ont une histoire INCROYABLE ! 3ème ep. Avec le @MuseeArmeeInvalides" by Histoire Appliquée, and the piece of armor is kept at the Musée de l'Armée des Invalides.
This duel is also detailed in French here:
fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Vivonne_et_Jarnac,_le_dernier_duel_judiciaire_en_France#cite_ref-44
A quick translation:
La Chasteigneraye walked hastly towards Jarnac, and did the first attack, parried that was parried. Jarnac riposted with a blow between the chainmail and the boot, (I'm not a specialist, I'm not sure if the "gousset de mailles" refers to a specific part of the chainmail). La Chasteigneraye overcomes his pain and gains on Jarnac, with the obvious intention of seizing him, but receives at the already injured left leg a backhand blow that leaves a deep wound in his hock (not sure of the English word for it, behind the knee, between the thigh and the calf). Vivonne fells, and it's the end.
Hey Skal, I'm French and your pronunciation is really good :)
As a french dude, I have to bring a contribution and tell how "Le coup de Jarnac" is describe : (with a translation)
"Jarnac blessa La Châtaigneraie d'un coup au jarret, inattendu mais non déloyal" [...]
"Coup de Jarnac : coup décisif donné par surprise et, par extension, par traitrise." (Source : dictionnaire Hachette)
"Jarnac wounded La Châtaigneraie with a stroke on the hock, unexpected but not disloyal" [...]
"Coup de Jarnac: decisive blow given by surprise and, by extension, by treachery."
Skall, ta prononciation est quasiment parfaite
Loved this video. Very interesting. ^^
I'm here from reading GURPS Martial Arts. In the section for "secret techniques" the coup de jarnac is described as follows:
"This doesn’t stop rumors about secret techniques from
arising when one man defeats another with a strike to an
unusual target. An example is the coup de Jarnac. Guy de
Chabot de Jarnac killed François de Vivonne de La
Châtaigneraie (one of France’s greatest swordsmen) on
July 10, 1547, in France’s last legal duel. He used a feint
followed by a cut to the hamstring. This is immobilizing
but not usually fatal, but La Châtaigneraie - mortified that
an inferior defeated him in this way - refused medical aid
and bled to death. It wasn’t long before dishonest masters
were offering to teach the coup de Jarnac to gullible,
wealthy students!"
Hey I m French , your accent is good , love your work , pls continue !
The sword whooshes sound so satisfying.
good video. Keep this historical stuff coming (so long as it is real)
This was great!