Thanks for the shout out guys and appreciate the positive + constructive feedback. I neglect people aren't watching the whole series, so in the future, I must front-load the final review with the payment details. For this project we were given the complete bike. Wheels, frame and groupset. I said to Neill upfront he could keep the bike (as a token of my appreciation for all his work on the channel to date), and if the dual review was taken well by the audience (and we continued on the path), in the future we would sell the bike at the end of the review and split the sale proceeds. So that is what the next project will look like, financially. But back to the Yoeleo, as it was a poor performing series, the channel made $480 USD Ad revenue. So that's what went in my personal pocket. Thanks again and keep up the good work!
Keep it up Cam that was probably one of the best reviews I have seen in years for a bike. I still wonder if the big bike manufacturers would ever be on board with this style of review as they seem to want to control the narrative on every bike they release. But If you release a review I watch it as I believe you are one of the best and most honest reviewers out there and this is coming from a true skeptic of the community as a whole. I only watch certain channels as most are just true shills for these bike brands. But I get it we all need to get paid for our time and effort so I totally understand why they do it and I do not hold anything against them just not my type of channel. Keep up the great work that Neil and Yourself are putting out into the world. Cheers!
If the brand is both paying you outright and you are keeping the product, it’s never a review. It’s sponsored content and should always be explicitly indicated as such. Anything less is unethical and supremely poor judgment.
Yes Chris, there is something in here for you! the point that Tim brings up is that in the first 2h, hitting 120g actually blunts fat oxidation A LOT, so starting with 60-80g in the first 2h is more important. Since glycogen will be used up first, instead of exogenous carbs, there's not much benefit to slamming it hard early; it doesn't spare any muscle glycogen for later in the ride....and then for the pros, this becomes a problem with energy balance over long stage races and mega training blocks. Cheers!
Road bikes are definitely way overpriced. Compare a mountain bike at the same price that has a complicated frame with pivots, a rear shock, a front suspension fork and a dropper post for 15k with a road bike that’s the same price without any of that.
Yeah I always say the full-sus MTB was and is expensive, but it can be justified, when you get to know it it's actually quite a value. In short, you got half a car for the money, the suspension is basically the same just different in size and scale. The pivots is smart and is comparable with the linkage system you found in a car. Road bike???? It just can't be justified. If $1000 is enough for carbon fiber production, what could be so different for extra $10000???? Aero??? Why nobody even talks about just use foam to shape the "aero foil" shape at where it's needed (of course wrapped with plastic tape or similar)??? It then only costs a dime and the shaping problem just solved. Aero is no excuse. It's all marketing BS.
@@xuchenglin6256 the Pivots and linkage system is far more complicated on a mtb than a motorbike. I still think they're overpriced but compared to road bikes they're not. We're paying for the continued R&D with bicycles. The cost of aero isn't in the manufacturing, it's in the wind tunnel time and testing, going back to the drawing board and refining it and then back to the wind tunnel. Mtb kinematics can be developed on CAD and don't require as much product development before going to production. They can also make a modular style frame with the ability to have one initial mould or use aluminium prototypes with link chips to change progressivity, chain stay lenght, BB height, and reach and then refine the carbon production version. Far less cost to do it that way.
I would tend to agree except complexity isn't always a good measure of cost of development. Hard to see aerodynamic gains and wind tunnel time on a frame.
Yes they are, 2500 is entry level nowadays and thats way too high. Industry used the pandemic demand to drive prices up and now there is massive oversupply as the demand has gone
Bikes are overpriced. CUBE (a reputed german brand) sells a Carbon race bike with Dura-Ace di2 for about 6500 Euros, and the other big brands sell it for more than 10k Euros. It is a ripoff.
Has the average salary per hour in Australia risen 20% from 2016 to 2024??? (I bet not!) That is what matters in comparative terms! people are angry because the salary inflaction is not keeping up with Asset Inflaction, Housing, Cars, Bikes, etc...
Bikes have gone up by 20% but here in the UK many workers are down 20% - 25% in lost wages, in the last 10 years (practically if you work in public services - health care - education). This has made bikes and kit even less affordable for many in the UK.
yeah, as most of cycling media is in UK, and a lot of riders as well naturally, when they're whining about overpriced bikes a significant part of that is brexit + weak gbp + economic stagnation.
@@MS-bw7yt Almost half who voted didn't want to leave, millions just didn't bother to vote. Low intelligence people were gas lit and lied to by the government's media. Regardless bikes are over priced globally now.
What the market needs is a couple cool looking, value, endurance geometry alloy and carbon bikes with a Shimano 105 R7000 rim brake groupset. We need to bring down the cost of quality "fast" road bikes that get NEW asses in saddles and into cycling. Then we need the cycling manufacturers associations to advocate for new bike paths and safe places to cycle. Increasingly unsafe roads are going to end up being the real killer of road cycling. People aren't going to get in to cycling if they are afraid of having their femur broken or getting a TBI from someone distracted on their phone in a car. In the US we have 60,000 miles of abandoned rail track. I suspect there is also abandoned railway in the EU and Aussie. Local governments need to pave those tracks and turn them in to cycling/jogging paths. Many cities have already done that with success. The model for success already exists.
I agreed with you on the manufacturer be lobbyists. It’s in their hands whether cycling dies or not in the future. And that relies on a network that beginners can thrive on. For sure the road is a huge hump for people. You have to basically love it to risk your life
@@WillEDCYou said it perfectly. You have to risk your life to participate in road cycling. That's not a long term strategy for success in a sport/hobby/activity. I’m lucky to live in a city with a dedicated 22 mile bike path otherwise I wouldn’t ride or own the bikes I do. I have personal friends who have been struck by distracted drivers. One broke their femur and has a leg that’s a bit shorter now and the other received a TBI and now is so diminished mentally he’s unemployable but for the most unskilled jobs. Both were wearing the best helmets. I can’t recommend to anyone they get in to cycling if it means they are out on the road with cars. The industry and local governments need to partner to expand safe riding paths. Coffee shops, restaurants, and bike shops will spring up along those paths it’s great for the city. I’m in a metro area of 500k people and the city supports around 20 bike shops.
@@Sweetskis oh yeah for sure. It can be a profitable endeavor. A cycling path with stopping points. Whether a food or views. People travel to cycle and if you have the infrastructure you will welcome that money as well as locals. There’s many ways to view it. For example an active healthy aging population can be happier and also less burden on the health care system.
A top end Trek OCLV 5200 bike in 2004 was £2,500 (I sadly vividly remember this!). 20 years later and if inflation was a staggering 8% p.a., then that £2,500 top-of-the-range bike would today be £11,600. If inflation was the usual 3%, a top end bike would cost £4,500. 😆 So yes, bikes across the board (budget to top) are more expensive.
29:30 Chris, you are out of your mind. Stop sucking up to the industry. The comparison with motorcycles is 100% valid. There is simply NO way you can justify the current costs of bicycles compared to motorcycles. Motorcycles are far more complicated in every single way. The only reason that bicycles sell for what they do is that there is a never ending supply of idiots willing to pay ridiculous prices for plastic.
In the spring of 2011 I purchased a Giant TCR Advanced with full Ultegra (10s), Mavic alloy wheels, and FSA cockpit for $2,200 USD (on sale), adjusted for inflation that comes to $3,022 USD. Giant currently sells a TCR Advanced Disc 1 Pro for $3500 USD with almost full Ultegra (11s mechanical) and Giant branded wheels/components which isn't too far off from the 2011 price for a similar bike. However in 2011, that TCR was fully up to date, now to get the TCR with the current Ultegra (Ultegra Di-2 12s) you're going to pay $4,950 USD or over 60% more than what the top spec bike cost in 2011 (adjusted for inflation). So, I feel that we are being ripped off by the bike companies. A 60% increase, even taking into account the "better" disc brakes and electronic shifting is a huge and unexplained increase.
I think the worst part of this is there’s no actual entry level road bike that an average person who’s not a dedicated cyclist will buy. Low/mid range 105 specced bike prices have doubled in many cases, high/mid tier with ultregra is nearly doubled and dura ace is for pros and dentists almost exclusively.
105 now is more expensive than 105 on old bikes. It's 12spd hydraulic, not low end at all. A rim brake bike with Claris or Sora mechanical disc are your entry level bikes. $900 for a new Giant Contend rn.
Complaints about "non cyclists" wanting to easily afford entry RACE bikes is a bit of an oxymoron, no? There are road bikes for less $. The problem is that wages have not been getting compound % increases, not that luxury items or race bikes - even entry ones - do get 3-4٪ more expensive every year on avg. Someone is ripping you off, I agree 100%. It is not the cycling market tho.
@@dtoliosStrongly agree on wages. Entry-level racing is a whole other can of worms though. Anything alloy with 105 and disc brakes is going to be $2500 USD from Trek, Giant, Specialized, Cannondale. Add another grand if you want Di2. After all that you'll still be the only person at your local crit with aluminum rims and no power meter. Speaking from experience, it's intimidating pulling up to the start line on your old CAAD when everyone else is on carbon, ultegra, and 50mm carbon wheels.
It's not about comparing 2016 to now. They were expensive then as well. Comparing to a motorcycle, it's not about a MotoGP bike, but just the shear amount of materials and number of parts and tech in a fairly ordinary sports bike. Go and look at them - incredible amount of stuff for similar money. The point is, the price has nothing to do with manufacturing or R&D costs. They'll charge as much as they can for anything.
I think part of the annoyance with price is the poor quality of mass produced carbon frames - why would I pay $7000 aud for a Cannondale that won’t stop creaking, that mind you also comes with alloy wheels.
The prices have gone up quite a bit though. The framesets are all made in the same factories and they are charging 3 to 4 times what you can get an off brand for. The r & d argument is pretty lame too. They use a computer program to do they calculations for the frameset and then make a frame. Not that expensive to do that. You guys can keep paying the same price as a car for a piece of carbon. These companies will never change if people have the attitude where we think is not that expensive.
I bought the cheapest Orbea Orca Aero in 2020. Looked up the same model and the prize matches inflation (in Belgium) almost exactly. But today that's 105 12spd instead of 11. Aero handlebars. And their top carbon whilst in 2020 they had different carbon for the cheaper bikes (they do still make that difference for their allrouder/climbing bike Orca). And that frame is winning World Tour races withh Lotte Destiny! Doing more Googling, cheapest Canyon Aeroad is the same price with DT Swiss Arc 1600 wheels and Ultegra :o That's a steal for 4k EUR.
except Jesse did not account for changes in the exchange rate 1 AUD got 0.72 USD in 2016 and gets 0.66 USD in 2024. Which really means only 10% after inflation.
The intrinsic value of a motor bike is much higher than the intrinsic value of a bicycle. And design costs are much higher for motor bikes as well, so there is no justification for top tier bikes prices other than greed.
not arguing against you, but where is the money going though? if local bike shops aren't making massive profits (lots have closed up), and if the big bike brands like Canyon are losing money....and its not as if Shimano's share prices are going through the roof....where is all the supposedly greedy profit money ending up ?
I'm curious, like who are in their right mind buying these bike at retail price currently? Supply and demand. If they won't lower their prices, it's obviously there is a demand for it from somewhere lol
@@asiantrick24my answer got cancelled, so I try again. I think as Chinese brands get established in the west people will realize they have been robbed and stop paying crazy prices for bikes.
Love the talk about sugar consumption. Just djd a 10.5 hour race and took in a full kg of sugar. Highest 10 hour power I ever had. I usually bonked in last few hours in past. I only do this strategy for fueling hard efforts and it’s a game changer.
Motorcycle comparison does matter. Offroad, Honda CRF 450R $9,699 vs Specialized S-Works Epic 8 $14,500 Honda CBR1000RR $16,599 vs Connandale Lab71 $15,000. Way more engineering and materials in the moto for the same or less money.
There is a really interesting video by fortnine comparing mtb to motorcycles. It’s a really good take on the whole conversation from a motorcycle enthusiasts perspective.
Honda Motorcycles' 2024 projected revenue is $42bn, Giant Bicycles' 2023 revenue was $2.4bn. These are completely different industries with completely different business environments. Honda can make less profit on each unit sold because they sell thousands of times more motorcycles than Giant sells bikes. While I believe that bikes are overpriced, we really can't compare bikes to motorcycles; the similarities stop at two wheels. Further, that top-tier Honda MX bike that sells for $9.7k isn't what Jett Lawrence is using to win almost every race he enters. Pricing for race-level MX bikes isn't my area, but I'm seeing everything from $40-200k, and I'd be surprised if anything beyond the frame and engine block from the retail bike were used on the race bike. That $15k Specalized Tarmac is a pro-level piece of equipment, almost sounds like a bargain.
1%er here, thank you for your opinion on the iGP computer. I only have it for a week I didn't try navigation yet, other first impressions are positive so far.
I got my IGS630 in October to replace an old garmin 520. Have been very pleased so far with the unit functionality and battery life has been amazing. My only gripe is the app - the UX is pretty rough and weird to navigate. 6.5/10. Not impossible, just not intuitive. But once you lock in the settings and tools that you use the most - it works.
Chris you are absolutely correct with the smoothness between the wahoo and Garmin 3 second power. When in workout mode the 3 second power doesn’t work very well at all, there is 100% a lag in the numbers and it completely shits itself when changing gears. The numbers shown on the lap watts average are always a lot lower. When you look at the data after on the computer the lap watts are considerably higher than shown on the head unit in real time.
Yeah Dylan is now on FELT bikes. The biggest problem with the bike industry nowadays is that there are no Mid Range bikes that are competitive. All of the top tier Frames are now 4 to 6k in the US. so you have to go down to the Mid Range but then when you get to mid range the prices used to be 3 to 5k but now its 5 to 7K. That is the biggest issue with the industry. Us non competitive cyclists who just want a good value road bike are forced to go with the second hand market or really cheap and build up.
As a former competitive cyclist who races himself more these days, why buy new big brand name bikes? If you know your preferred geometry, the best riding material is steel. Spend money on a custom frameset, build your own wheels like a true enthusiast and drivetrain parts can be found used and cheap.
Team sponsorship is for sure marketing orientated rather than done for R&D rider feedback - this is the cost customers have to eat as well as other marketing costs. Primary reason why direct from China brands are much closer to cost as margins will be narrower and much smaller marketing overheads
20% BEYOND inflation is crazy. Especially when you can buy that same 2016 Giant on the used market for under 1000 dollars now. And remember, this is the bottom end. The cost differential is higher on the top end You can buy a 2024 CBR600RR for 12000 dollars right now. Back in the day, they sold MORE frames and thus the R&D costs were discretized smaller per buyer
can get a Scott Cr1 2013 for £300 .. bit of creative wheel purchases and you can get it under 6.5 KG ... prices are all aimed at folk with lots of money to throw at small gains .. mad world !
I think the point is for the price a motorcycle is a super well engineered high performing machine that usually works for decades(buy japanese) and for comparable money the average bike frame and bike components on a whole, are poorly engineered pieces of shit.
Great video, thanks! I understand why Specialized is cutting out the distributor costs of their bikes by shipping directly to bike shops now. (yet they still cost a lot). I feel its fair to say that it takes a lot of energy to build a legit consistent brand that consumers aspire to buying and probably for every company that succeeds at this, there's probably a lot that have either failed or leave a poor impression. I feel the needle is shifting on what is deemed acceptable from a value proposition in the mind of a consumer but it feels like cycling is still an aspirational sport, so I suspect we will still see brands put out bikes that people can not afford to satisfy that need to buy the best. Love the idea of Strava providing post ride notifications on battery levels in this new electronic age.
Chris, I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the bicycle/motor bike argument. You can buy a motocross bike off the show room floor, and race it at a professional level, for the same cost as a road bike. Even the shoes cost as much as boots and the bids/jersey cost more than moto pants/jersey. I love both, but every time I buy cycling equipment or a bike, I feel like I’m being ripped off.
No, if you are comparing a high end race bike with a motorcycle, you MUST compare it with a comparatively high end race motorbike, which is a motogp (or equivalent). Your view is not only dishonest, but also INCREDIBLY populist. Two things that frankly, we don't really need in this space.
@@gabrielmazza7923 You CANNOT compare it to a MotoGP bike, because it is impossible to purchase one. This is why MotoGP riders can and often do say terrible things about their bike and it’s performance. MotoGP teams aren’t trying to sell a customer that model of bike. Cycling teams are. What part is dishonest? KTM 450 SX-F Factory Edition $12,500 Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL8 $14,000
@TopseCret_101 Yes, you MUST and CAN compare it to a MotoGP bike. You are comparing the top-tier level of their respective sports, and the machines used in it. Please don't showcase your IGNORANCE ANY FURTHER
@@gabrielmazza7923 but we can’t even buy a Moto GP bike so why bother comparing ? Can we buy a Jumbo Visma team bike than Jonas uses ? Don’t the pro’s use different bikes to what Jo public can buy ?
Haven't tuned in for a while - great to see the show going well. Geez you boys are firmly on board the anti-corporate movement! I've always considered the price of a top end bike to be great value - they get ridden a lot and last years. Plus I don't need to buy one if I don't have the money.
Xoss, Magene and iGPsport are thriving in the budget space where people just wants a way to track their rides, connect HR and cadence sensors and be on their merry way. Those brands simply offer a really great way to get into the sport without dropping hundreds of dollars. I have personally been using a Magene C406 myself and I know many others perfectly satisfied with XOSS G+. As what you said, it performs 99% of the features to what a Garmin and Wahoo has (depending on the model ofc as there are entry level in the $20 range) and will be more than enough for majority of the cyclists.
I've been a pretty big fan of Magene for many years now. Their C406 Pro is good. The new C606 + L508 (rear radar) looks impressive and next on my purchase list.
For what its worth, US road bikes are generally much higher than inflation adjusted prices. Average inflation 2018-2023 was 24.5%. I compared carbon frame versions of Specialized Roubaix, Specialized Tarmac, Trek Emonda, Trek Domane, Cannondale SuperSix, Giant TCR, Canyon Ultimate. At the budget 105 entry level prices are up 65% - more and less. Moving into the higher spec bikes Ultegra, Dura, Di2, 41%. The video compared Giant TCR at a 20% increase. In the US, Giant is considered somewhat of a value brand . A 105 spec level TCR actual inflated price was up 27% which all things considered is true to the brands reputation. Canyon is relatively new to the US but also aims at the value oriented buyer. Similar to Giant, the Canyon Ultimate at Ultegra spec works out to 32%. The person buying a $2,000 bike in 2018 is paying $3,300 for almost the same thing. A top spec $10,000 bike in 2018 is now $15,000. Prices are up similarly across the board. The last two bikes I bought were in 2017 and 2023, both previous year models, and got about 30% discount off list price.
Regarding the pricing, the only thing that gets me is that almost every "high end" bike has the same price. That's where I think this is just gouging consumers. Someone hit 12k for a bike, someone else did, someone else crept to 12.5k, and now some are 15k. I don't buy that every company, has the same expenses, and we've all magically ended up with 15k being the top. It seems odd. Cars aren't like that. You're getting an option of a high end Honda, Jeep, Chevy, and they are noticeably different. A 15k bike from varying companies, nowhere near different enough to matter. But all cost 15k.
Road bikes have been overpriced for years my dad is a carbon engineer these bikes are so cheap to make. Yet consumers keep buying them some of these bikes are the same price as a Family car. How does this make sense
Cheers again lads. The cost of bikes never really worried me. Kind of with Jesse’s on that one. The one that get me is the price of bibs and jerseys bloody hell, what are you paying for there
Really enjoyed the industry pricing chat. Gonna finally join the escape collective because you guys keep reminding me that most of the articles I want are on there, hope they're aware that you're good for business. Pillar are smart. Also great hair Chris! I can't be bothered but love the look
thanks for the tip on the rechargeable XOSS X2 Pro HR strap, picked one up on that well known Chinese marketplace for 25AUD. Note the standard X2 uses CR2032 battery, the X2 Pro is rechargeable.
Saying a 20% increase isn’t much (after inflation adjustment) is off the mark after you went to the pain of trying to build a base level, good quality, like-for-like bike.
I don’t think SRAM batteries can even tell their charge level more precisely than “good”, “low” or “critically low”. It’s very frustrating when the battery is suddenly empty at the beginning of a ride.
I think what matters about the high end bikes being a rip off is - even if I drop $8k on a new bike I’ll always be thinking ‘one day I’ll go all the way’… it’ll never end! Great show guys and great analysis Jessie. I think the extra 20% is just a societal shift in what’s appropriate to spend and easier access to credit etc… maybe.
Wahoo Tickr Fit is the fully sealed arm strap HR monitor that Wahoo has. I went through 2 regular Tickrs before swapping out (under warranty) to the Tickr Fit and have not looked back. Only downside is the strap sort of falls apart, but the actual unit is solid!
Chris should try the Hammerhead Heart rate monitor I have had it for over a year and its not rechargeable but it has no cut outs and drop outs like my old Wahoo ones. Just super consistent. Best part I got it free with my Karoo 2 when they were on sale.
I think the prices are to high. I also have recently looked at motorcycle costs and back in the day a Yamaha R1 was under 20k and now they are 40k plus. There is a massive difference in the bikes in regard to electronics however bikes are not in the same league. The RD for a bicycle can’t be the same as a motorcycle. I shouldn’t have to pay for a brand to sponsor pro riders as it is irrelevant to me. I ride an endurance bike and couldn’t care less about racing it. Trek is taking the piss. Currently the Domane SL5 is $6700 compared to the same Emonda SL5 with the same spec but carbon wheels is currently $4999. Taking the piss.
Further to that you can buy a world superbike which is the same basic bike as a road bike that is heavily modified. . I dont agree with the comparisons to bikes it’s more a comparison to industry.
Top of the line factor ostro vam is a quite a bit cheaper then and s-works where i live. So I think it's better value amongst some of the big brands top of the line offerings.
Thanks for the tip on the XOSS hr monitor. I just bought one so fingers crossed. I have heaps of issues with my wahoo hr monitors, showing inaccurate readings.
Jesse, The core was developed along with the Norwegian coach "Olaf" I think. His athletes had used it for their training and it super useful especially when doing a Ironman 70.3 or full in a temp of 40 degree celius.
@50.19 shoutout to The Heat Laboratory based in Annandale, Sydney. Lindsey is an expert in heat adaption and offers a great service. Worth looking into
I love watching Cam and Neill. They're two of my favourites to watch on RUclips. I felt like the Yoeleo review was overly complementary to Yoeleo, only given the hiccups that happened with the first frame that was sent. A big question mark hangs over their quality control, at least for me. If that was mentioned in their video, maybe I missed it, and apologies if so. I still enjoyed watching it though. I just wouldn't buy a Yoeleo, based on the QC alone.
I dunno how gravel races look in Australia, but in Europe, to find even one that has sections of single track like this Mid-South race could be a challenge. For me, this footage you've shown honestly resembled more of xc marathon race in some flatlands rather than a gravel race. So unless you there in Down Under play gravel the same way Americans do I wouldn't say it would be too demanding technic-wise.
Distributors and dealers used to control both discovery and access (and were in fact necessary for both). Now they're not, and the excess margins don't make sense anymore. Price pressures have got to shift to direct sales, with eventual squeeze on brand margins, and shops being almost exclusively service on demand.
Re: Garmin and 3 second power -- I think Garmin just does some extra multi-second smoothing, even for the "instantaneous" power. It wouldn't surprise me if it was actually showing a 5 second power.
Speaking of Gravel - any chance to get Aussie Brendan “Trekky” Johnston on for an interview as he heads toward his 2nd season racing in the USA's Life Time Grand Prix series long with other big names like Dylan Johnson?
Factor is a sexy brand for sure. Great nutrition simplification strategy. Been on the low carbs high electrolytes, for first 60-80kms then caffeine and salted maple syrup for the back half of a ride for a few years now.
I'm pretty sure Victor Campenaerts and Pogi got the Kom last year or year before if my memory serves me correctly and have since deleted their rides from Strava. Tom Pidcock also got the Kom and this year and also deleted his ride the next day.
My questions about bike computers after dealing with wahoo and garmin are Can you load workouts from something aside from training peaks Can you pause intervals without pausing the activity recording Can you go back a step if you accidentally hit lap.
In North America don't forget the dealer takes 1/3 of the MSRP which made sense for cheaper bikes, but it's unacceptable when the bikes today cost as much or more than a motorcycle.... and in that industry the dealers take is 1/6 or 15%.
Jumping in at the end when my di2 gives me the low battery alert on my garmin I've witnessed over 4 hours(could be more) left without changing my shifting.
can you drop the details on the gel flask? the measurements and what not. i’d like to try it. i have a marathon coming up this year and it sounds like a good solution
I think the top of the line bikes are priced as such so that the lower models can be priced more competitively. Same thing happens with car companies and airlines. Premium products like sports cars (think Audi S line or VW GTI) or business class seats make a lot of the revenue/profit margin and as such the economy seat or compact cars in the range can be more affordable. Motorbikes pricing margins are structured similar to cars in that a lot of the profit comes from finance products, whether they offer their own leases, credit or get a kick back from other financial institutions. The actual difference between production cost and sale prices is not that high. Sales volume is also far higher. So it’s not a fair comparison, at the end of the day they sell credit and motorbikes. Bikes definitely operate more on clothing/general product margins. Where production costs vary greatly to the final price to consumer. It’s easy to think you’re getting ripped off, but in the current system of bricks and mortar, I think the higher margins are needed to keep stores open. Touch and feel of products still remains a huge part of sales and visibility to consumers, and with overall net profit usually less than 10% for a store, small reductions/discounts in pricing can see stores become unprofitable. For brands that operate both direct to consumer and through dealers, they need to tow the line with the pricing direct to consumer, if they undercut dealers they would soon be left without showrooms and risk a large percentage of sales going out the door.
Hambini just did a quick review if the iGS computer (that they sent him). His review seems to parallel the experiences of Chris...the unit covers most of the major features that the majority of riders would be looking for, there is limited app integration (Strava & TP work) and the battery life is crazy good. Personally, while I do not have to have a touch screen, the fact that I have had a touch screen on my Garmin 1030+ for many years, I think that I would really miss that if it were not available. Of course if you add a touch screen to this iGS until, you would likely increase the price significantly.
the dismissal of the motogp comparison is too basic. the problem is that a motogp bike has significantly higher performance and technology than a consumer motorbike, but a top of the line road bike is.....not that much different....than a regular road bike, in the design, manufacturing and performance gains.
Very interested in that hr meter. Ive killed so many different hr monitors. As for that gps unit, im curious how it works in the woods. Anything can gove fairly accurate distances on the road but go in thick tree cocer and all of a sudden your distance gets chopped. I did one 100 mile mtb race where i only clocked 81 miles on my wahoo elemnt (1st gen) next year i used a wheel sensor, got 99.9 miles. At that time, the top garmin was getting about 96-97 miles for that race without a wheel sensor.
I think the biggest gripe I have about bike prices is that used frames are way overprices because new frames are expensive. 3000$ for a 10 year old slightly chipped frame is ridiculous.
On the bike pricing discussion - I will accept the analysis that Jesse did comparing the mid-tier bike pricing and finding the 20% increase over time as being acceptable. I also fully agree with your mutual analysis that the current top-tier bike pricing is certainly more suspect. One economic factor that must be considered is that with the 'pandemic bubble', we saw dwindled supply, thus increased prices (supply vs demand). As has been noted by many, the post-pandemic demand has radically dropped, however, due to poor planning and ordering along with the dynamics of the manufacturing & shipping processes, supply is high at this point. The 'struggle' that the cycling industry is seeing is a direct result of post-pandemic high supply/low-demand situation. Compounding that problem is the fact that many companies have not been fundamentally economically sound, thus, the current situation in the cycling industry pushes those companies into desperate measures and potential failure. The larger and more economically sound companies will also suffer, however, they will survive. I believe that Chris was dead-on when he mentioned that the 'top end' sales, which are reported to be strong, are a false-flag when thinking about the fairness of pricing and the state of the industry. Those sales are being driven primarily by the segment of the populus that can afford what they want at nearly any price along with a smaller percentage of those that probably can't afford those purchases but make them anyway. I see that market segment as a niche-segment and in no way representative of the road cycling market as a whole. Unfortunately because of how the advertising/influencer/professional sports advertising industry works, we are left with the impression that the 'high end' is the entire cycling market. Case in point, with the Specialized Tarmac SL8 release - 1% of road cyclists should even consider the S-Works version, 33% might reasonably consider the Pro version and 66% should be looking at the Expert option. The way the advertising/influencer market works, all we heard about at the launch was the S-Works version with a price of nearly $15k (US). That is exceedingly misleading and does a disservice to the greater road cycling market.
The bottom line everyone has to understand, and it's crazy this needs to be brought up considering it's literally econ101 day one topic, is in a competitive free market if a competitor could reduce cost, undercut their competition and capture market share they would. I think what most are noticing is an increase in cost ceiling, $14k price point models didn't exist 10yrs ago, so what a "top end" bike was has shifted in all aspects.
Bike industry have adopted a "Price Discrimination" strategy. Added more price points at the higher-end to "obtain all of the consumer surplus," with each consumer buying at the highest price they are willing to pay. Buying a bike now is like looking at a restaurant wine list, look at the most expensive and roll your eyes, then the cheapest but don't want to look cheap, end up choose something in the middle.
Yes, yes they are. I am glad I bought my Rim Brake BMC SLR02-2, when I could in 2018 for $1599.00 US. Good luck finding anything comparable for under $3000.00 in 2024.
Just look at inflation for cars housing, groceries. If you want to see real bike inflation numbers look at the numbers in 2019-2020. The numbers after that are just included supply and demand
I would argue that the "cheaper" bikes actually have got cheaper. My previous bike was a ten year old CAAD10, 2x11 Ultegra, with the cheapest Mavic wheels you could get (Axium with Axioma tires, or maybe the other way around). It was then one of the cheaper "not junk" bikes I could find, at 2300 Euros. Right now you can buy a Canyon Ultimate for the same price. And it is carbon instead of aluminium, almost 2 kg lighter, has 105 12 speed (and the current 105 is at least as good as the Ultegra 10 years ago), with decent DT Swiss wheels and Conti 5000 tires. The main difference between then and now is that there is a whole tier of bikes added at the top of the market, with super light carbon and electronic shifting, that just didn't exist then. And while I am just as much a sucker for the bestest and lightest as anyone, you really don't need that if you are not competing (and even if you are the electronic shifting is nice, but not need to have).
Thanks for the shout out guys and appreciate the positive + constructive feedback. I neglect people aren't watching the whole series, so in the future, I must front-load the final review with the payment details. For this project we were given the complete bike. Wheels, frame and groupset. I said to Neill upfront he could keep the bike (as a token of my appreciation for all his work on the channel to date), and if the dual review was taken well by the audience (and we continued on the path), in the future we would sell the bike at the end of the review and split the sale proceeds. So that is what the next project will look like, financially. But back to the Yoeleo, as it was a poor performing series, the channel made $480 USD Ad revenue. So that's what went in my personal pocket. Thanks again and keep up the good work!
I'd love to hear that you got an upfront flat rate $5k + the bike to even bother doing the review.
Is this the Real Cam or Chat GPT Cam? Not sure if this comment passes the Turning test
Keep it up Cam that was probably one of the best reviews I have seen in years for a bike. I still wonder if the big bike manufacturers would ever be on board with this style of review as they seem to want to control the narrative on every bike they release. But If you release a review I watch it as I believe you are one of the best and most honest reviewers out there and this is coming from a true skeptic of the community as a whole. I only watch certain channels as most are just true shills for these bike brands. But I get it we all need to get paid for our time and effort so I totally understand why they do it and I do not hold anything against them just not my type of channel. Keep up the great work that Neil and Yourself are putting out into the world. Cheers!
If the brand is both paying you outright and you are keeping the product, it’s never a review. It’s sponsored content and should always be explicitly indicated as such. Anything less is unethical and supremely poor judgment.
Yes Chris, there is something in here for you! the point that Tim brings up is that in the first 2h, hitting 120g actually blunts fat oxidation A LOT, so starting with 60-80g in the first 2h is more important. Since glycogen will be used up first, instead of exogenous carbs, there's not much benefit to slamming it hard early; it doesn't spare any muscle glycogen for later in the ride....and then for the pros, this becomes a problem with energy balance over long stage races and mega training blocks. Cheers!
Big-up to you and your channel. More folks should watch 👍
@@endatheworld thanks so much Enda!!
Road bikes are definitely way overpriced. Compare a mountain bike at the same price that has a complicated frame with pivots, a rear shock, a front suspension fork and a dropper post for 15k with a road bike that’s the same price without any of that.
Yeah I always say the full-sus MTB was and is expensive, but it can be justified, when you get to know it it's actually quite a value. In short, you got half a car for the money, the suspension is basically the same just different in size and scale. The pivots is smart and is comparable with the linkage system you found in a car. Road bike???? It just can't be justified. If $1000 is enough for carbon fiber production, what could be so different for extra $10000???? Aero??? Why nobody even talks about just use foam to shape the "aero foil" shape at where it's needed (of course wrapped with plastic tape or similar)??? It then only costs a dime and the shaping problem just solved. Aero is no excuse. It's all marketing BS.
@@xuchenglin6256 the Pivots and linkage system is far more complicated on a mtb than a motorbike. I still think they're overpriced but compared to road bikes they're not. We're paying for the continued R&D with bicycles. The cost of aero isn't in the manufacturing, it's in the wind tunnel time and testing, going back to the drawing board and refining it and then back to the wind tunnel. Mtb kinematics can be developed on CAD and don't require as much product development before going to production. They can also make a modular style frame with the ability to have one initial mould or use aluminium prototypes with link chips to change progressivity, chain stay lenght, BB height, and reach and then refine the carbon production version. Far less cost to do it that way.
The new SWorks Epic is $24k!
I would tend to agree except complexity isn't always a good measure of cost of development. Hard to see aerodynamic gains and wind tunnel time on a frame.
@@B00st672 WTF!!!
Yes they are, 2500 is entry level nowadays and thats way too high.
Industry used the pandemic demand to drive prices up and now there is massive oversupply as the demand has gone
Bikes are overpriced.
CUBE (a reputed german brand) sells a Carbon race bike with Dura-Ace di2 for about 6500 Euros, and the other big brands sell it for more than 10k Euros.
It is a ripoff.
Has the average salary per hour in Australia risen 20% from 2016 to 2024??? (I bet not!) That is what matters in comparative terms! people are angry because the salary inflaction is not keeping up with Asset Inflaction, Housing, Cars, Bikes, etc...
Bikes have gone up by 20% but here in the UK many workers are down 20% - 25% in lost wages, in the last 10 years (practically if you work in public services - health care - education). This has made bikes and kit even less affordable for many in the UK.
yeah, as most of cycling media is in UK, and a lot of riders as well naturally, when they're whining about overpriced bikes a significant part of that is brexit + weak gbp + economic stagnation.
High inflation and low wage growth has been an issue in Australia too. It’s not a UK-specific problem.
Well brexit was a pretty stupid move... but UK voted for it. It's your own problem
@@MS-bw7ytsome of us didn’t.
@@MS-bw7yt Almost half who voted didn't want to leave, millions just didn't bother to vote. Low intelligence people were gas lit and lied to by the government's media. Regardless bikes are over priced globally now.
holy crap! thanks for the shout out! cheers
Would love to see you on the show sometime!
@@marcvb3364 would be awesome!!
What the market needs is a couple cool looking, value, endurance geometry alloy and carbon bikes with a Shimano 105 R7000 rim brake groupset. We need to bring down the cost of quality "fast" road bikes that get NEW asses in saddles and into cycling. Then we need the cycling manufacturers associations to advocate for new bike paths and safe places to cycle. Increasingly unsafe roads are going to end up being the real killer of road cycling. People aren't going to get in to cycling if they are afraid of having their femur broken or getting a TBI from someone distracted on their phone in a car. In the US we have 60,000 miles of abandoned rail track. I suspect there is also abandoned railway in the EU and Aussie. Local governments need to pave those tracks and turn them in to cycling/jogging paths. Many cities have already done that with success. The model for success already exists.
I agreed with you on the manufacturer be lobbyists. It’s in their hands whether cycling dies or not in the future. And that relies on a network that beginners can thrive on. For sure the road is a huge hump for people. You have to basically love it to risk your life
@@WillEDCYou said it perfectly. You have to risk your life to participate in road cycling. That's not a long term strategy for success in a sport/hobby/activity. I’m lucky to live in a city with a dedicated 22 mile bike path otherwise I wouldn’t ride or own the bikes I do. I have personal friends who have been struck by distracted drivers. One broke their femur and has a leg that’s a bit shorter now and the other received a TBI and now is so diminished mentally he’s unemployable but for the most unskilled jobs. Both were wearing the best helmets. I can’t recommend to anyone they get in to cycling if it means they are out on the road with cars. The industry and local governments need to partner to expand safe riding paths. Coffee shops, restaurants, and bike shops will spring up along those paths it’s great for the city. I’m in a metro area of 500k people and the city supports around 20 bike shops.
@@Sweetskis oh yeah for sure. It can be a profitable endeavor. A cycling path with stopping points. Whether a food or views. People travel to cycle and if you have the infrastructure you will welcome that money as well as locals.
There’s many ways to view it. For example an active healthy aging population can be happier and also less burden on the health care system.
20% after inflation, that is insane!
There will be a reckoning coming soon, these prices make no sense.
No 'off the peg' bike should be worth 5 figures - and for what is basically a 'plastic' bike. We ARE being ripped off......
A top end Trek OCLV 5200 bike in 2004 was £2,500 (I sadly vividly remember this!). 20 years later and if inflation was a staggering 8% p.a., then that £2,500 top-of-the-range bike would today be £11,600. If inflation was the usual 3%, a top end bike would cost £4,500. 😆 So yes, bikes across the board (budget to top) are more expensive.
29:30 Chris, you are out of your mind. Stop sucking up to the industry. The comparison with motorcycles is 100% valid. There is simply NO way you can justify the current costs of bicycles compared to motorcycles. Motorcycles are far more complicated in every single way.
The only reason that bicycles sell for what they do is that there is a never ending supply of idiots willing to pay ridiculous prices for plastic.
In the spring of 2011 I purchased a Giant TCR Advanced with full Ultegra (10s), Mavic alloy wheels, and FSA cockpit for $2,200 USD (on sale), adjusted for inflation that comes to $3,022 USD. Giant currently sells a TCR Advanced Disc 1 Pro for $3500 USD with almost full Ultegra (11s mechanical) and Giant branded wheels/components which isn't too far off from the 2011 price for a similar bike. However in 2011, that TCR was fully up to date, now to get the TCR with the current Ultegra (Ultegra Di-2 12s) you're going to pay $4,950 USD or over 60% more than what the top spec bike cost in 2011 (adjusted for inflation). So, I feel that we are being ripped off by the bike companies. A 60% increase, even taking into account the "better" disc brakes and electronic shifting is a huge and unexplained increase.
I think the worst part of this is there’s no actual entry level road bike that an average person who’s not a dedicated cyclist will buy. Low/mid range 105 specced bike prices have doubled in many cases, high/mid tier with ultregra is nearly doubled and dura ace is for pros and dentists almost exclusively.
105 now is more expensive than 105 on old bikes. It's 12spd hydraulic, not low end at all. A rim brake bike with Claris or Sora mechanical disc are your entry level bikes. $900 for a new Giant Contend rn.
Canyon 7 endurance is quite good value
Complaints about "non cyclists" wanting to easily afford entry RACE bikes is a bit of an oxymoron, no? There are road bikes for less $. The problem is that wages have not been getting compound % increases, not that luxury items or race bikes - even entry ones - do get 3-4٪ more expensive every year on avg. Someone is ripping you off, I agree 100%. It is not the cycling market tho.
@@dtoliosStrongly agree on wages. Entry-level racing is a whole other can of worms though. Anything alloy with 105 and disc brakes is going to be $2500 USD from Trek, Giant, Specialized, Cannondale. Add another grand if you want Di2. After all that you'll still be the only person at your local crit with aluminum rims and no power meter. Speaking from experience, it's intimidating pulling up to the start line on your old CAAD when everyone else is on carbon, ultegra, and 50mm carbon wheels.
Current tiagra is better than previous gen 105. It’s good enough for anyone. 105 is entry level for racing not cycling.
It's not about comparing 2016 to now. They were expensive then as well. Comparing to a motorcycle, it's not about a MotoGP bike, but just the shear amount of materials and number of parts and tech in a fairly ordinary sports bike. Go and look at them - incredible amount of stuff for similar money.
The point is, the price has nothing to do with manufacturing or R&D costs. They'll charge as much as they can for anything.
Almost like it's a competitive free market, shocking🙄
Great show love that Jesse shows up with helmet marks on his head. Ride on!
I think part of the annoyance with price is the poor quality of mass produced carbon frames - why would I pay $7000 aud for a Cannondale that won’t stop creaking, that mind you also comes with alloy wheels.
Seat creak? I used my pool seal lube on the s. Post. Problem solved. Ss.evo disc
The EVOQ interview was a good one, he did mention relevant tips regarding carb loading..
That single track section from Paysons camera was pure insanity!
The episodes get better and better each week. Absolutely love your work - this is the only cycling content I religiously consume.
Please interview Dylan Johnson on the MidSouth race and his new bike sponsor and all that went into that. Thanks for considering boys!!
The prices have gone up quite a bit though. The framesets are all made in the same factories and they are charging 3 to 4 times what you can get an off brand for. The r & d argument is pretty lame too. They use a computer program to do they calculations for the frameset and then make a frame. Not that expensive to do that. You guys can keep paying the same price as a car for a piece of carbon. These companies will never change if people have the attitude where we think is not that expensive.
I bought the cheapest Orbea Orca Aero in 2020. Looked up the same model and the prize matches inflation (in Belgium) almost exactly.
But today that's 105 12spd instead of 11. Aero handlebars. And their top carbon whilst in 2020 they had different carbon for the cheaper bikes (they do still make that difference for their allrouder/climbing bike Orca).
And that frame is winning World Tour races withh Lotte Destiny!
Doing more Googling, cheapest Canyon Aeroad is the same price with DT Swiss Arc 1600 wheels and Ultegra :o That's a steal for 4k EUR.
I think 20% after inflation is a lot. Guess it's supply and demand, and people are willing to pay more for their bike.
Can't do a like for like I don't think. Big part of the cost uplift must surely be attributable to establishing more stable supply chains post covid
Agreed
except Jesse did not account for changes in the exchange rate 1 AUD got 0.72 USD in 2016 and gets 0.66 USD in 2024. Which really means only 10% after inflation.
@@nickobec take a look at dollar prices then
The intrinsic value of a motor bike is much higher than the intrinsic value of a bicycle. And design costs are much higher for motor bikes as well, so there is no justification for top tier bikes prices other than greed.
not arguing against you, but where is the money going though? if local bike shops aren't making massive profits (lots have closed up), and if the big bike brands like Canyon are losing money....and its not as if Shimano's share prices are going through the roof....where is all the supposedly greedy profit money ending up ?
@@carsonau116 it’s not to going to shareholders probably but definitely to the middlemen running bicycle companies
I'm curious, like who are in their right mind buying these bike at retail price currently? Supply and demand. If they won't lower their prices, it's obviously there is a demand for it from somewhere lol
@@asiantrick24 anyone is free to buy a scam. However I think this situation is bound to end as Chinese brands become established in the West.
@@asiantrick24my answer got cancelled, so I try again. I think as Chinese brands get established in the west people will realize they have been robbed and stop paying crazy prices for bikes.
Shout out Evoq’s RUclips. Criminally underrated.
thank you so much!!!
Love the talk about sugar consumption. Just djd a 10.5 hour race and took in a full kg of sugar. Highest 10 hour power I ever had. I usually bonked in last few hours in past. I only do this strategy for fueling hard efforts and it’s a game changer.
Motorcycle comparison does matter. Offroad, Honda CRF 450R $9,699 vs Specialized S-Works Epic 8 $14,500 Honda CBR1000RR $16,599 vs Connandale Lab71 $15,000. Way more engineering and materials in the moto for the same or less money.
Agree, bicycle people love to convince themselves they're not getting scammed.
FortNine did a video on it, and explains reasons why and why not bikes cost more than “they should”
Exactly, the CRB1000RR is for sure not being made for 300$ and sold for 16600$ :D
There is a really interesting video by fortnine comparing mtb to motorcycles. It’s a really good take on the whole conversation from a motorcycle enthusiasts perspective.
Honda Motorcycles' 2024 projected revenue is $42bn, Giant Bicycles' 2023 revenue was $2.4bn. These are completely different industries with completely different business environments. Honda can make less profit on each unit sold because they sell thousands of times more motorcycles than Giant sells bikes. While I believe that bikes are overpriced, we really can't compare bikes to motorcycles; the similarities stop at two wheels.
Further, that top-tier Honda MX bike that sells for $9.7k isn't what Jett Lawrence is using to win almost every race he enters. Pricing for race-level MX bikes isn't my area, but I'm seeing everything from $40-200k, and I'd be surprised if anything beyond the frame and engine block from the retail bike were used on the race bike. That $15k Specalized Tarmac is a pro-level piece of equipment, almost sounds like a bargain.
1%er here, thank you for your opinion on the iGP computer. I only have it for a week I didn't try navigation yet, other first impressions are positive so far.
I got my IGS630 in October to replace an old garmin 520. Have been very pleased so far with the unit functionality and battery life has been amazing.
My only gripe is the app - the UX is pretty rough and weird to navigate. 6.5/10. Not impossible, just not intuitive. But once you lock in the settings and tools that you use the most - it works.
c'mon, price of bikes now is f'kin insane, bloody bonkers!
Chris you are absolutely correct with the smoothness between the wahoo and Garmin 3 second power. When in workout mode the 3 second power doesn’t work very well at all, there is 100% a lag in the numbers and it completely shits itself when changing gears. The numbers shown on the lap watts average are always a lot lower. When you look at the data after on the computer the lap watts are considerably higher than shown on the head unit in real time.
Yeah Dylan is now on FELT bikes. The biggest problem with the bike industry nowadays is that there are no Mid Range bikes that are competitive. All of the top tier Frames are now 4 to 6k in the US. so you have to go down to the Mid Range but then when you get to mid range the prices used to be 3 to 5k but now its 5 to 7K. That is the biggest issue with the industry. Us non competitive cyclists who just want a good value road bike are forced to go with the second hand market or really cheap and build up.
As a former competitive cyclist who races himself more these days, why buy new big brand name bikes? If you know your preferred geometry, the best riding material is steel. Spend money on a custom frameset, build your own wheels like a true enthusiast and drivetrain parts can be found used and cheap.
cheeky redbull placement is the best part of this ep, I want redbull helmets for Chris and Jesse
Team sponsorship is for sure marketing orientated rather than done for R&D rider feedback - this is the cost customers have to eat as well as other marketing costs. Primary reason why direct from China brands are much closer to cost as margins will be narrower and much smaller marketing overheads
I agree, probably get more "bang for buck" R&D by buying competitors bikes and find out what makes them "so great".
I've taken your advice for sugar water on all my long runs and rides. It took a little to get the right ratio, but I've felt great!
Great job!
Best day of the week is when Nero drops 😍
20% BEYOND inflation is crazy. Especially when you can buy that same 2016 Giant on the used market for under 1000 dollars now.
And remember, this is the bottom end. The cost differential is higher on the top end
You can buy a 2024 CBR600RR for 12000 dollars right now.
Back in the day, they sold MORE frames and thus the R&D costs were discretized smaller per buyer
can get a Scott Cr1 2013 for £300 .. bit of creative wheel purchases and you can get it under 6.5 KG ... prices are all aimed at folk with lots of money to throw at small gains .. mad world !
I think the point is for the price a motorcycle is a super well engineered high performing machine that usually works for decades(buy japanese) and for comparable money the average bike frame and bike components on a whole, are poorly engineered pieces of shit.
Great video, thanks! I understand why Specialized is cutting out the distributor costs of their bikes by shipping directly to bike shops now. (yet they still cost a lot). I feel its fair to say that it takes a lot of energy to build a legit consistent brand that consumers aspire to buying and probably for every company that succeeds at this, there's probably a lot that have either failed or leave a poor impression. I feel the needle is shifting on what is deemed acceptable from a value proposition in the mind of a consumer but it feels like cycling is still an aspirational sport, so I suspect we will still see brands put out bikes that people can not afford to satisfy that need to buy the best. Love the idea of Strava providing post ride notifications on battery levels in this new electronic age.
Chris, I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the bicycle/motor bike argument.
You can buy a motocross bike off the show room floor, and race it at a professional level, for the same cost as a road bike.
Even the shoes cost as much as boots and the bids/jersey cost more than moto pants/jersey.
I love both, but every time I buy cycling equipment or a bike, I feel like I’m being ripped off.
Fully agree. Sorry Chris but Who would want a full-on MotoGP bike anyway they’re not even road legal and require amazing skill to ride.
No, if you are comparing a high end race bike with a motorcycle, you MUST compare it with a comparatively high end race motorbike, which is a motogp (or equivalent). Your view is not only dishonest, but also INCREDIBLY populist. Two things that frankly, we don't really need in this space.
@@gabrielmazza7923 You CANNOT compare it to a MotoGP bike, because it is impossible to purchase one.
This is why MotoGP riders can and often do say terrible things about their bike and it’s performance.
MotoGP teams aren’t trying to sell a customer that model of bike. Cycling teams are.
What part is dishonest?
KTM 450 SX-F Factory Edition $12,500
Specialized S-Works Tarmac SL8 $14,000
@TopseCret_101 Yes, you MUST and CAN compare it to a MotoGP bike. You are comparing the top-tier level of their respective sports, and the machines used in it. Please don't showcase your IGNORANCE ANY FURTHER
@@gabrielmazza7923 but we can’t even buy a Moto GP bike so why bother comparing ? Can we buy a Jumbo Visma team bike than Jonas uses ? Don’t the pro’s use different bikes to what Jo public can buy ?
Haven't tuned in for a while - great to see the show going well. Geez you boys are firmly on board the anti-corporate movement! I've always considered the price of a top end bike to be great value - they get ridden a lot and last years. Plus I don't need to buy one if I don't have the money.
Xoss, Magene and iGPsport are thriving in the budget space where people just wants a way to track their rides, connect HR and cadence sensors and be on their merry way. Those brands simply offer a really great way to get into the sport without dropping hundreds of dollars. I have personally been using a Magene C406 myself and I know many others perfectly satisfied with XOSS G+. As what you said, it performs 99% of the features to what a Garmin and Wahoo has (depending on the model ofc as there are entry level in the $20 range) and will be more than enough for majority of the cyclists.
Dylan Johnson is now racing on a FELT not FACTOR. Has been at the start of the gravel season.
Yep, the Felt Breed will take a bigger tire.
The fact he’s going all Chris Miller on his new Felt is rather intriguing. I am not sure if Felt is actually even sponsoring him 😅
@@ariffaumy boy has a touch of the ‘tism he can’t help but say what comes to mind.
Stay away from Factor
@@petersouthernboy6327DJ races 53s at Midsouth!
Not even a road rider, and I look forward to the show! Great work
Great show Lads. Seems like Jesse did plenty homework this week. He nailed every subject. Very informative!
Cheers for the shoutout boys!
I've been a pretty big fan of Magene for many years now. Their C406 Pro is good. The new C606 + L508 (rear radar) looks impressive and next on my purchase list.
For what its worth, US road bikes are generally much higher than inflation adjusted prices. Average inflation 2018-2023 was 24.5%. I compared carbon frame versions of Specialized Roubaix, Specialized Tarmac, Trek Emonda, Trek Domane, Cannondale SuperSix, Giant TCR, Canyon Ultimate. At the budget 105 entry level prices are up 65% - more and less. Moving into the higher spec bikes Ultegra, Dura, Di2, 41%. The video compared Giant TCR at a 20% increase. In the US, Giant is considered somewhat of a value brand . A 105 spec level TCR actual inflated price was up 27% which all things considered is true to the brands reputation. Canyon is relatively new to the US but also aims at the value oriented buyer. Similar to Giant, the Canyon Ultimate at Ultegra spec works out to 32%. The person buying a $2,000 bike in 2018 is paying $3,300 for almost the same thing. A top spec $10,000 bike in 2018 is now $15,000. Prices are up similarly across the board. The last two bikes I bought were in 2017 and 2023, both previous year models, and got about 30% discount off list price.
Regarding the pricing, the only thing that gets me is that almost every "high end" bike has the same price. That's where I think this is just gouging consumers. Someone hit 12k for a bike, someone else did, someone else crept to 12.5k, and now some are 15k. I don't buy that every company, has the same expenses, and we've all magically ended up with 15k being the top. It seems odd.
Cars aren't like that. You're getting an option of a high end Honda, Jeep, Chevy, and they are noticeably different. A 15k bike from varying companies, nowhere near different enough to matter. But all cost 15k.
Good observation. Mainstream cycling is afterall an industry based on marketing and thus, has pricing based on perceived value.
Road bikes have been overpriced for years my dad is a carbon engineer these bikes are so cheap to make.
Yet consumers keep buying them some of these bikes are the same price as a Family car. How does this make sense
Cheers again lads. The cost of bikes never really worried me. Kind of with Jesse’s on that one. The one that get me is the price of bibs and jerseys bloody hell, what are you paying for there
Shiller Miller Shillin that pillar!!! JK. So glad you guys got a sponsor! Keep up the Awesome shows!😮
Really enjoyed the industry pricing chat. Gonna finally join the escape collective because you guys keep reminding me that most of the articles I want are on there, hope they're aware that you're good for business. Pillar are smart. Also great hair Chris! I can't be bothered but love the look
thanks for the tip on the rechargeable XOSS X2 Pro HR strap, picked one up on that well known Chinese marketplace for 25AUD. Note the standard X2 uses CR2032 battery, the X2 Pro is rechargeable.
If Factor was half the price, it wouldn't have the cache that it does in Australia.
So the bike industry is outpacing inflation by 20% and you’re not outraged? Wow.
Saying a 20% increase isn’t much (after inflation adjustment) is off the mark after you went to the pain of trying to build a base level, good quality, like-for-like bike.
Thank integrated cockpits for a chunk of the price rise.....idiotic tech that vastly limits bike fit options and needs to go to the cemetery asap.
Amen to that 🙏
I don’t think SRAM batteries can even tell their charge level more precisely than “good”, “low” or “critically low”. It’s very frustrating when the battery is suddenly empty at the beginning of a ride.
I think what matters about the high end bikes being a rip off is - even if I drop $8k on a new bike I’ll always be thinking ‘one day I’ll go all the way’… it’ll never end!
Great show guys and great analysis Jessie. I think the extra 20% is just a societal shift in what’s appropriate to spend and easier access to credit etc… maybe.
Wahoo Tickr Fit is the fully sealed arm strap HR monitor that Wahoo has. I went through 2 regular Tickrs before swapping out (under warranty) to the Tickr Fit and have not looked back. Only downside is the strap sort of falls apart, but the actual unit is solid!
Bravo on these other party bike computer makers. The price on the new devices from Garmin, at least, is insane.
Chris should try the Hammerhead Heart rate monitor I have had it for over a year and its not rechargeable but it has no cut outs and drop outs like my old Wahoo ones. Just super consistent. Best part I got it free with my Karoo 2 when they were on sale.
I think the prices are to high. I also have recently looked at motorcycle costs and back in the day a Yamaha R1 was under 20k and now they are 40k plus. There is a massive difference in the bikes in regard to electronics however bikes are not in the same league. The RD for a bicycle can’t be the same as a motorcycle. I shouldn’t have to pay for a brand to sponsor pro riders as it is irrelevant to me. I ride an endurance bike and couldn’t care less about racing it. Trek is taking the piss. Currently the Domane SL5 is $6700 compared to the same Emonda SL5 with the same spec but carbon wheels is currently $4999. Taking the piss.
Further to that you can buy a world superbike which is the same basic bike as a road bike that is heavily modified. . I dont agree with the comparisons to bikes it’s more a comparison to industry.
Top of the line factor ostro vam is a quite a bit cheaper then and s-works where i live. So I think it's better value amongst some of the big brands top of the line offerings.
Thanks for the tip on the XOSS hr monitor. I just bought one so fingers crossed. I have heaps of issues with my wahoo hr monitors, showing inaccurate readings.
Jesse, The core was developed along with the Norwegian coach "Olaf" I think. His athletes had used it for their training and it super useful especially when doing a Ironman 70.3 or full in a temp of 40 degree celius.
@50.19 shoutout to The Heat Laboratory based in Annandale, Sydney. Lindsey is an expert in heat adaption and offers a great service. Worth looking into
I love watching Cam and Neill. They're two of my favourites to watch on RUclips. I felt like the Yoeleo review was overly complementary to Yoeleo, only given the hiccups that happened with the first frame that was sent. A big question mark hangs over their quality control, at least for me. If that was mentioned in their video, maybe I missed it, and apologies if so. I still enjoyed watching it though. I just wouldn't buy a Yoeleo, based on the QC alone.
I dunno how gravel races look in Australia, but in Europe, to find even one that has sections of single track like this Mid-South race could be a challenge. For me, this footage you've shown honestly resembled more of xc marathon race in some flatlands rather than a gravel race. So unless you there in Down Under play gravel the same way Americans do I wouldn't say it would be too demanding technic-wise.
Distributors and dealers used to control both discovery and access (and were in fact necessary for both). Now they're not, and the excess margins don't make sense anymore. Price pressures have got to shift to direct sales, with eventual squeeze on brand margins, and shops being almost exclusively service on demand.
What was the name of the rechargeable HR monitor? Can’t find where you guys discussed it again
Re: Garmin and 3 second power -- I think Garmin just does some extra multi-second smoothing, even for the "instantaneous" power. It wouldn't surprise me if it was actually showing a 5 second power.
Love it!
Speaking of Gravel - any chance to get Aussie Brendan “Trekky” Johnston on for an interview as he heads toward his 2nd season racing in the USA's Life Time Grand Prix series long with other big names like Dylan Johnson?
Factor is a sexy brand for sure.
Great nutrition simplification strategy. Been on the low carbs high electrolytes, for first 60-80kms then caffeine and salted maple syrup for the back half of a ride for a few years now.
How is a 20% increase in price (inflation already taken into account) for a value bike not outrageous?
Vingegaard took the rates KOM years ago when he rode for ColoQuick in the exact same way
I'm pretty sure Victor Campenaerts and Pogi got the Kom last year or year before if my memory serves me correctly and have since deleted their rides from Strava. Tom Pidcock also got the Kom and this year and also deleted his ride the next day.
I'm a gravel rider (sorry not sorry) watched Payson's footage it was very cool!
My questions about bike computers after dealing with wahoo and garmin are
Can you load workouts from something aside from training peaks
Can you pause intervals without pausing the activity recording
Can you go back a step if you accidentally hit lap.
I have the igs 630 and I love it. battery lifef is unreal
In North America don't forget the dealer takes 1/3 of the MSRP which made sense for cheaper bikes, but it's unacceptable when the bikes today cost as much or more than a motorcycle.... and in that industry the dealers take is 1/6 or 15%.
Jumping in at the end when my di2 gives me the low battery alert on my garmin I've witnessed over 4 hours(could be more) left without changing my shifting.
can you drop the details on the gel flask? the measurements and what not. i’d like to try it. i have a marathon coming up this year and it sounds like a good solution
I think the top of the line bikes are priced as such so that the lower models can be priced more competitively. Same thing happens with car companies and airlines. Premium products like sports cars (think Audi S line or VW GTI) or business class seats make a lot of the revenue/profit margin and as such the economy seat or compact cars in the range can be more affordable.
Motorbikes pricing margins are structured similar to cars in that a lot of the profit comes from finance products, whether they offer their own leases, credit or get a kick back from other financial institutions. The actual difference between production cost and sale prices is not that high. Sales volume is also far higher. So it’s not a fair comparison, at the end of the day they sell credit and motorbikes.
Bikes definitely operate more on clothing/general product margins. Where production costs vary greatly to the final price to consumer. It’s easy to think you’re getting ripped off, but in the current system of bricks and mortar, I think the higher margins are needed to keep stores open. Touch and feel of products still remains a huge part of sales and visibility to consumers, and with overall net profit usually less than 10% for a store, small reductions/discounts in pricing can see stores become unprofitable.
For brands that operate both direct to consumer and through dealers, they need to tow the line with the pricing direct to consumer, if they undercut dealers they would soon be left without showrooms and risk a large percentage of sales going out the door.
Hambini just did a quick review if the iGS computer (that they sent him). His review seems to parallel the experiences of Chris...the unit covers most of the major features that the majority of riders would be looking for, there is limited app integration (Strava & TP work) and the battery life is crazy good. Personally, while I do not have to have a touch screen, the fact that I have had a touch screen on my Garmin 1030+ for many years, I think that I would really miss that if it were not available. Of course if you add a touch screen to this iGS until, you would likely increase the price significantly.
the dismissal of the motogp comparison is too basic. the problem is that a motogp bike has significantly higher performance and technology than a consumer motorbike, but a top of the line road bike is.....not that much different....than a regular road bike, in the design, manufacturing and performance gains.
Top of the range Trek Madone: £14,500🤯
Honda CBR600RR: £10,500
WTAF!
Very interested in that hr meter. Ive killed so many different hr monitors.
As for that gps unit, im curious how it works in the woods. Anything can gove fairly accurate distances on the road but go in thick tree cocer and all of a sudden your distance gets chopped. I did one 100 mile mtb race where i only clocked 81 miles on my wahoo elemnt (1st gen) next year i used a wheel sensor, got 99.9 miles. At that time, the top garmin was getting about 96-97 miles for that race without a wheel sensor.
Jesse, the Winspace T1550 comes in rim brake and has modern aero design!
Chris fired up today- I like it!!!
I think the biggest gripe I have about bike prices is that used frames are way overprices because new frames are expensive. 3000$ for a 10 year old slightly chipped frame is ridiculous.
On the bike pricing discussion - I will accept the analysis that Jesse did comparing the mid-tier bike pricing and finding the 20% increase over time as being acceptable. I also fully agree with your mutual analysis that the current top-tier bike pricing is certainly more suspect. One economic factor that must be considered is that with the 'pandemic bubble', we saw dwindled supply, thus increased prices (supply vs demand). As has been noted by many, the post-pandemic demand has radically dropped, however, due to poor planning and ordering along with the dynamics of the manufacturing & shipping processes, supply is high at this point. The 'struggle' that the cycling industry is seeing is a direct result of post-pandemic high supply/low-demand situation. Compounding that problem is the fact that many companies have not been fundamentally economically sound, thus, the current situation in the cycling industry pushes those companies into desperate measures and potential failure. The larger and more economically sound companies will also suffer, however, they will survive.
I believe that Chris was dead-on when he mentioned that the 'top end' sales, which are reported to be strong, are a false-flag when thinking about the fairness of pricing and the state of the industry. Those sales are being driven primarily by the segment of the populus that can afford what they want at nearly any price along with a smaller percentage of those that probably can't afford those purchases but make them anyway. I see that market segment as a niche-segment and in no way representative of the road cycling market as a whole. Unfortunately because of how the advertising/influencer/professional sports advertising industry works, we are left with the impression that the 'high end' is the entire cycling market. Case in point, with the Specialized Tarmac SL8 release - 1% of road cyclists should even consider the S-Works version, 33% might reasonably consider the Pro version and 66% should be looking at the Expert option. The way the advertising/influencer market works, all we heard about at the launch was the S-Works version with a price of nearly $15k (US). That is exceedingly misleading and does a disservice to the greater road cycling market.
The bottom line everyone has to understand, and it's crazy this needs to be brought up considering it's literally econ101 day one topic, is in a competitive free market if a competitor could reduce cost, undercut their competition and capture market share they would. I think what most are noticing is an increase in cost ceiling, $14k price point models didn't exist 10yrs ago, so what a "top end" bike was has shifted in all aspects.
New episode❤ Is it late? Time to go wrench on some bikes and listen to the boys!
Bike industry have adopted a "Price Discrimination" strategy. Added more price points at the higher-end to "obtain all of the consumer surplus," with each consumer buying at the highest price they are willing to pay. Buying a bike now is like looking at a restaurant wine list, look at the most expensive and roll your eyes, then the cheapest but don't want to look cheap, end up choose something in the middle.
Yes, yes they are. I am glad I bought my Rim Brake BMC SLR02-2, when I could in 2018 for $1599.00 US. Good luck finding anything comparable for under $3000.00 in 2024.
I'm applying the same inflation factor to my 2016 watts
Just look at inflation for cars housing, groceries. If you want to see real bike inflation numbers look at the numbers in 2019-2020. The numbers after that are just included supply and demand
I would argue that the "cheaper" bikes actually have got cheaper. My previous bike was a ten year old CAAD10, 2x11 Ultegra, with the cheapest Mavic wheels you could get (Axium with Axioma tires, or maybe the other way around). It was then one of the cheaper "not junk" bikes I could find, at 2300 Euros. Right now you can buy a Canyon Ultimate for the same price. And it is carbon instead of aluminium, almost 2 kg lighter, has 105 12 speed (and the current 105 is at least as good as the Ultegra 10 years ago), with decent DT Swiss wheels and Conti 5000 tires.
The main difference between then and now is that there is a whole tier of bikes added at the top of the market, with super light carbon and electronic shifting, that just didn't exist then. And while I am just as much a sucker for the bestest and lightest as anyone, you really don't need that if you are not competing (and even if you are the electronic shifting is nice, but not need to have).