The Current State of Coin Grading - How NGC / PCGS are Currently Grading Coins - Opinion Rant
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- Опубликовано: 17 июл 2021
- What is your opinion on the current state of coin grading?
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Ben The Coin Geek
Old Pueblo Coin
I enjoyed your rant. I'm not expert enough to know how to assign a grade to my coins, so it is hard for me to argue the grades they assign. I do believe that everything you said is true. And then some. There are dimensions to TPGs that many collectors don't always understand. As long as TPG's are in a competitive landscape, they will be looking for ways to differentiate. As long as they are in business, they will be looking to increase their profit margins. While accurate grading is always the goal, they cannot help but be motivated by other influences. It is a shame. And it is wrong. But until we develop a micron level scanner that contains templates for every coin on earth, then lock it in a box so that no one can mess with it, this will continue. PCGS is proud of their market share and reputation. They are proud that they grade one level below NGC and two below ANACS. NGC is proud to be lower priced than PCGS. ANACS is proud to recognize minor errors/varieties that NGC and PCGS won't. Also, there is a marketing element for which collectors share responsibility. Experienced numismatists often say, "Buy the coin, not the slab". But if you were purchasing a valuable coin and found two that were identical, were exactly the same price, but one was in an ANACS holder and the other was in a PCGS holder. Which one would you buy?
Your judgement and reasoning is accurate and insightful. Thanks Ben!
I once sent in coins in original mint cello that came back "cleaned" lol just insane.
Lmao. Smh
I dunno man. Half the time I think they flip a coin (pun intended)...i have sent off special edition proofs and have never received a 70...not a single flaw to be found at 20x mag...all these companies guard their pop reports....and that is a large part of the problem,
I think the same we would never know.
Great Video...thank you posting this Sir! As a new collector { only 7 mos. in } I was getting ready to give
up trying to figure out what is going on with these inconsistent variations...thinking that I will never catch on. Thankfully my buddies wife sent me your link to shed light on the fact that I'm not losing my mind on the grading process and collecting in general.
If you want ICG or ANACS to not be red-headed step children, you should use them more and treat them like they're the equal of NGC or PCGS. I've been hearing the nonsense about ANACS being questionable for over 30 years. But somehow NGC hit the market and was instantly accepted. With the frequency of people questioning the results of PCGS and NGC, it seems to me that they're the questionable services and ANACS should be used exclusively.
Reliable technology for grading coins will never exist. Remember, technology only does what the human programs into it.
Heritage at one time back had ALL 4 3rd party graders. ICG was told to HIT THE ROAD JACK because of their inconsistency with All coins graded by them. ANACS is kind of like a HALF Sister among the Grading Services. They are Still working with Heritage and I have bought quite a few ANACS Coins myself from Heritage, E Bay and some Local Dealers here in The Phx Market. Remember Everybody, BUY the Coin, NOT the Holder. YOU can always "Crack Them Out" from ANY Holder and Resubmit to Another 3rd Party Grader if you so DESIRE. I have done this for many years now.
@Robert Lung bad experiences good experiences I'm sure it happens to everybody good info you have there
most 1977 roosevelt dimes from bank rolls are yellow but the come back ques. color.
Thank you for this.
my dealer suspects that big boys like Heritage get better grades as preferred customers, maybe not on purpose.
@thecoingeek ben, you should sign up for Summer Seminar this summer... take Grading 1 the first week and Grading 2 the second week. It will help you - or anyone - more than you can possibly realize. Trust me. Plus if youve never been SS is literally summer camp for coin geeks. Youll have SUCH a blast and walk away with so many new friends, new contacts... and a wealth of new "insider" knowledge to help you, your shop and your YT vids........
Thanks for this discussion!
Thanks for the video. Very informative. My concern is the "special" labels that big companies can buy from PCGS that the common collector can not. Then you look at the way the "special" labels are graded....Lots of MS 70's for those "special" labels. I say SCAM...
YES!! NGC definitely overlooks flaws when it comes to submissions by major distributors like AMPEX. Back in 2018 I ordered an NGC 2018 PF70 Silver Eagle from AMPEX that came in the green holder that only the "big boys" qualify for. It had a scratch so deep and noticeable across the entire sun you could see it from 3ft away!! Not only was it definitely NOT a 70, if any of us had submitted it, they probably would have kicked it back with no grade or a "Details" designation at best. But for AMPEX, the graders obviously just push them through without even looking at them! AMPEX did exchange it for a new one that was a 70. But how could such an obvious flaw have even made it through unless nobody looked at it??
I also have a 2013 NGC MS70 Silver Eagle that I bought from a local dealer around 2015. At the time I was pretty naive about coin grading and accepted that it was a 70. I still have the coin. Fortunately, it has never developed any tarnish or milk spots. But it has many flaws in the fields that would disqualify it from being a 70 and were there when I bought it.
I have also seen MANY ASE's graded as 69's and I can't find a flaw, even on the rim. Another interesting thing to consider with both the flawed 70's I have seen is that they were both overgraded in years that had LESS demand. And the flawless 69's I've seen have mostly been in years with high demand like this year and last.
I have never been wrong with my grading. It is always the grading service that is wrong.
LOL. You joke, but that is what the grading services are up against. Hope all is well.
@@don951 Hi Don. We are doing well. I hope you and yours are also. *TYU*
NGC blew my last couple submissions. Missed obvious major varieties when I paid for V+, and seriously undergraded everything else.
Graded coins are ok, for the most part. I do have some. I have crack some out to put into my Type Set. I'm an older collector and enjoy looking and handling my coins. I'm not ever thinking about selling them. This is just me. Love holding and looking at the Liberty Cap and Draped Bust coins. Holding a copper or silver coin from the late 1700's. The History, the thoughts of who held it, that it was used to buy or the time it took to earn it. This is what coin collecting is for me. I collect what I like or love not as an investment.
I'm more of stacker/investor but I also like to collect for the same reasons. However, if I find a coin I 'like' I wont sell it for all the tea leaves in China... even if it's worth all the tea leaves in China
Very true sir. Never hurts for a young (broke) collector have that possibility though. :)
I think that with my Wheats. Couldn’t imagine the grit to acquire any coin from the 1700s
“Lazy” that’s my opinion when I got 16 out of 17 back they just put “cleaned”. Imagine peak New Years time frame, it’s easier to say cleaned so they don’t have to put in the leg work and documentation time. PCGS is overwhelmed with coins and is just mass pushing coins through. It just put a bad taste in my mouth so much so I put the hard brakes on collecting, haven’t bought anything.
A Cleveland Browns fan....
I have a story to share with you. You tell me what you think. Because of a health issue, I left the hobby for 2 years. When I came back to the hobby, I noticed that as far as mint sets go, lets say the years of 1968 1969 and 1970, a big change has taken place. When I left the hobby, maybe 3 MS68 coins could be found in one Mint set for that yea,r for a collector who has been in the hobby for a couple of years?
Now, today, almost every type of coin, (such as the cent, nickel, dime and quarter....) and in almost every top tier sets, (top 5 lets say0, suddenly have these amazingly high graded coins? Not just in the 3 years I mentioned, but every year I have checked from 1064 and up to 2021! Having the highest graded set for a given year, in many of the years given, what happened?
How come now you can find many MS68 graded examples of almost every type of coin the mint produced in that given year, now available? What changed in 2 years?
Did a couple of dozen time capsules from buildings, in the cities that the us mint has production buildings, suddenly find the need to open the corner stone, time capsules and release hundreds of thousands of new, first run, extraordinary strikes, coins, in roll quantities, to the public?
< Where did the tsunami of high grade coins come from? >
Wonderful presentation. I agree with much of what you say. I am perhaps an expert in certain areas and am aware of exactly as you say the fact that I would be naturally biased in my favor. However, I have seen errors on high and low sides that seem not consistent, and I am talking about coins that I don't have an iron on the fire with.
It is more than just anecdotal and it worries me a lot, even moreso with the purchase of these two TPGs by companies interested in maximizing profits. I agree that it is not an intentional turn to conservatism.
Imagine sitting in dark room grading coins hour after hour, day after day, year after year.
My dream
But I don't get along with trans or lesbians so I couldn't work for NGC or PCGS, only ANACS which is actually my favorite grading company.
@@evenruderanger7617 In America and Western Europe a company generally cannot discriminate based on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, and several other criteria. I think in Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia are much less restrictive. Go work there.
I can’t. Is likely part of the problem. Burn out.
I did a test about 3 yrs ago with PCGS. And before that had many coins graded through them prior to that with great results I thought were deserving of the coins I sent in. So….
I have had rolls of 1982 lg date zinc pennies for years now that my uncle gave me back in the 80’s. I cherry picked the best, reddest most beautiful looking ones out with great luster eye appeal and mark free. I had about 7 I narrowed it down to for sending in. I decided to send in 2 of that 7. They came back both a 68. Now I know what a great coin looks like because I’ve been doing this for years and not to sound egotistical, but I pride myself in having a good eye for this sort of thing. (Hence my 2 68s that came back after narrowing it down from hundreds of coins). That was about 3 years ago.
5 months ago I decided to cherry pick again from the same batch of 40rolls that the 68s came from. Except these were new unopened rolls I never went through. I cherrypicked and narrowed it down to 5 absolutely amazing looking coins again. And compared them to the slabbed 68s side by side. In my opinion they looked just as good if not better. And one I thought would be the golden egg (68+ or 69). I decided to send them all in…….
4 came back a 66 and one a 66+.
There’s just no way. No fu**king way these coins could be that off by 2 pts. That’s when I started doing research and realized that PCGS had changed in their grading standards OR in my personal opinion their experienced coin graders are no longer present. And now all that exist in terms of decent graders, are far and few between who really know what the hell they are doing when grading these coins.
Bottom line: they have gone down hill and it’s apparent and obvious to say the least.
A complete waste of money to gamble with and pay these grading fees for a crappy grade you know is worthy of something better than it came back. We don’t know who these coins are going to for grading. It’s a complete crapshoot. !! PCGS has become all about marketing and salesmanship to get people to send in their coins. They are all about the “MoNey Money Money by the pound. “💰💰💰
In China, where I am from, I would say NGC and PCGS are getting very conservative this year. Since 2020, NGC has lowered its price in China to about 8 dollars for the lowest tier, and a fast turnaround of about 1 week. The result is very low grades, usually, we see 62 assigned to previously 64 morgan dollars. PCGS is another story, they are extremely slow, usually takes more than 6 months, and very conservative as well, but not as in lower numerical grades, PCGS assigns detail grades to a large number of Chinese coins that seem problem-free to most collectors. So, I'd say as they got a large volume of coins, they both have become more conservative.
An added layer of complexity is submitting coins for conservation and then grading. I have done 3 submissions this year. I like the conservation job NGC does, but when the coins go to the grading department they get trash grades. Often times the conservation process does reveal problems, but not all the time. I think there is a bias within NGC grading against coins being conserved by NGC. Its as if they regard conservation as a just another cleaning process. They consistently trash grade coins coming from conservation.
Ben, I agree with you 100%. We have both had the same recent experiences with NGC & PCGS. I believe the grading companies are transitioning to a more bottom line/stakeholder driven business model, which means the customer suffers as with all companies who make this kind of transition (ex: Apple). I feel we as business owners/collectors MUST take our business elsewhere. However, I will not "jump ship" until the big auction houses are on board.
Ouch! My beloved Browns. Keep up the great work Ben.
We just had a bulk submission of over 700 morgan dollars come back from ngc... we specified MS63 as the lowest grade, so anything they thought was lower would be sent back without a slab... there were about 10 coins that were in the reject pile that were nicer than most of the MS64s. Then there were tons of bad grades, MS63s that looked like MS65s, almost all the MS65s were really 64s in my opinion... One of the MS65s came back with a huge scratch through the obverse field that should have detail graded that coin. We got back one with a massive piece of foam or something stuck inside the slab on the obverse of the coin, and 6, yes SIX coins that were marked as the completely wrong date/mint mark.
WOW... totally amazing.This is a head scratcher comments segment.By the way nice follow up video.
Submitting groups of the same coin type together seems to result in lower grades half of the time
According to the PCGS website, coins are graded by (in no particular order) quality of strike, amount of marks, luster, quality of toning and overall eye-appeal. If 2 graders have the same grade, that's the grade the coin gets, if they don't come back with the same grade, a third grader makes the final call.
I have spoken to 2 ex-graders from the same grading company. I've asked both of these people the same set of questions. And guess what? They both gave me different answers! They work for the same number of years, over 3 each, over the same time frame. They both graded many different types of coins and even did variety attributions. I myself send in many coins for a variety attribution. The answers they gave me blew me away. One said that this variety needed xy and z. The other grader stated that they only needed a or b?
You tell me how that is?
I've called and asked what if I disagree with a final grade? The office staff in one case did not know what to do. Another phone call and I was told they would call me back. The office worker went and asked a grader if this is so and what to do? When I have meet and chatted with the grading company representative people at shows, you get a third answer. The left hand has no idea what the right hand does!
The cost is insane as well!
Thanks for another great video Ben! I always value your opinions and perspectives.
I see coins in slabs that were auctioned in the 90's as AU55 that are now MS 62 or MS 63. Why....because they were raw and then submitted by Superior or Heritage and were part of a named collection. It's a business.
I have a theory that since the higher demand for coin grading has occurred over the past year or so, these company's are hiring very young and inexperienced graders, which causes them to grade lower than normal, which you stated as to "not get in trouble"....however you may also get lucky and the coin is looked at by an experienced person, giving you a "correct" grade. So really it's a crap shoot...haha
I hears the same thing about NGC hiring young and inexperienced graders. I'm warning everyone don't send your coins to NGC right now.
That was a very well thought out articulate rant with which I agree completely. Years ago, I complained of how much over grading there was, and now it's inconsistent grading. I have never used the services of a grading company, though I have bought graded bullion where the cost ignored the fact that the coin was slabbed. One of my jobs at a LCS is to grade coins to prepare them for sale. I have never had any complaints.
Until PCG and NGC treat the common collector like the big submission companies I’ll deal with ANACS who do deal fairly with us “common” collectors. And treat their customers with the respect they are due.
That's why some collectors send their coins through prominent dealers. Names give the first impression. So, who might get a better grade: Ben,
TheCoinGeek, OR Compton, the CoinGenius619 ?!?!?!
PCGS and NGC are in the cat bird seat for now, due to the obvious current demand for their grading services. There is a finite universe of coins warranting grading. When the demand for grading starts to dry up, I foresee PCGS and NGC lowering their standards somewhat to help encourage demand for grading (or regrading). Otherwise, if they continue to frustrate a lot of coin collectors with their "questionable color" or "cleaned" or "damaged" (due to a minor scratch) details grade, demand for their grading services will diminish over time, primarily due to frustration and diminished availability of gradeable coins. In short, PCGS and NGC survival as a business depends on maintaining a demand for their services, especially as the number of slab-worthy raw coins dry up. At that time, they'll relax their "standards" to encourage a revival of demand for regrading coins previously given details grade, imho. So, collectors ought to stock up now on details coins that are borderline or dubious details-grade slabbed (e.g., questionable color, or minor scratched coins) in anticipation of future PCGS or NGC relaxation of standards.
So they're deliberately creating a pent up demand for crack outs and regrading? Interesting theory. Kind of like planned obsolescence in consumer electronics.
I really think it’s time for dealers to band together and start using ANACS and ICG. You want them to become acceptable? Use them. You want better customer service? Use somebody who cares about you as a customer.
ICG is fast but the grading is so suspect on occasion imo. Just from what I can gather, may or may not be right, they really seem like who submitted the coin plays a huge part. ANACS I hope gets more accepted.
@@jimyoyoma8956 the point is, if you start taking business away from NGC and PCGS they might start to re-think their own customer service. Listening to Ben with his unboxing videos, the big two are also very “suspect “ in their grading.
I don’t use ANACS or ICG because Anacs told me that die polish marks on my half dollar was cleaning. It ended up straight grading at PCGS
Thank you very correct on the coin grading companies they are either unexperienced I've had questionable colors and lower grades on coins I thought were higher too or sent them back in and cracked them out and got a higher grade from another company very interesting that you have this topic tonight had a coin that was stuck in a safe for several years got it out and came back questionable color
Thanks for the video.
Dealer here. I only have a lot of experience with sending into NGC. I have been pleased with the grades I have been getting back (We do hundreds). The only thing I am very unsatisfied is the turn around time. It takes 2-3weeks check in 2-3months back to me.
Thanks for the input
Slower turn around times should be expected until we get through this pandemic. Agree, nobody likes it, but understandable.
I recently purchased a Morgan 1900 O graded by PCGS labeled MS64 VAM 15 ,Dbl stars. VAM World also identifies the doubled zeros. Thumbing through the Van Allen and Mallis Encyclopedia, although it was another date, identified single, double, and triple clash marks on the reverse left of the right wreath. The 1900 O has the same type of clash marks, and above the right wing of the eagle.
I also have an 1887 Morgan graded by NGC the identifies DDO, alligator eye, clashed st, clearly on the label.
What gives. Is PCGS in such a hurry, they do the minimum to get the coin out? Or, is it the minimum information they pulled from the Top 100 booklet just to get it out?
I've also viewed, both on line and in person. Some of the grades, by both TPG's given seem to be inflated in some cases. Makes you extra cautious when you're looking a slabbed coins.
I read that PCGS/NGC are now using 8 x's magnification. We all know where this is heading...electron microscope grading?
It's frustrating that these 2 companies have such a stranglehold on the hobby. I think what's need is a new kid in town; a disruptor service just like PCGS and NGC pioneered when they entered the scene.
My thought is that you only get 3 graders on higher end $500 and up coins. I think the graders separated by tier whereas some Will grade high end coins, lower level economy coins and moderns
Perhaps they get a collection of coins in that they consider average and just start slapping 62 & 63’s on everything
This is a great video and I've had the same experiences. NGC has slabbed some modern coins too high for me and some older coins way too low.
They are definitely more conservative!There is no way that the graders are going to give you a 68 when the highest grade for years is 67.They are scared to cross that line.Look in the price guide and see that 20 years of pennies are 67, dont tell me that in thousands of those pennies there is not one that is 68.But if one calls it 68, then there will be a onslaught of 68s.😬
You can focus on coins in old holders, which is what I do. They are nicer for the given grade in general, but there are dogs in those holders too so you have to be careful. I'm talking about the holders from about 1986-1995. Grading standards were tighter then.
Buy the coin, not the holder
Essentially this is the time for Anacs, if they can't at least get a foot in the door during this period, they should just close up shop and give up. At least with Anacs, if they don't like the color you will still get a number grade. Unc Questionable Color is simply lazy non-grading.
Are you close to someone that has a subscription to a grading company? If so just as an experiment send off some coins that you think are the same and have the other person send off the other half and see if they come back the same grades. Would be curious to see if the ones you send come back a grade lower than the others. Surely you have a unc roll of something laying around just dying to be put in a holder.
Very well said Ben 😊👊
I’ve sent a 2019 Una and the Lion 2oz Silver proof to NGC . If it comes back a 69 it’s worth £3,000 if a 70 then £6,000 thing is I can’t tell the difference.
It feels like coins that come back graded "unc details" or "questionable color" wouldn't have gotten the same evaluation a few years ago.
Anacs and ICG are not second tier, but until we, the customer consider them equal or relevent, they are not. Hate to say it Ben, you dealers are the best advertisement for NGC and PCGS.
Actually the problem with Anacs is, what can they do? They already grade comparably to the other companies, and going cheaper would actually be a detriment. They would almost do well to RAISE prices. I think that they are significantly cheaper actually works against them because people perceive it as being less because it is cheaper.
I really like ANACS Ben, they are the oldest and one of the most reputable. I'd recommend using ANACS for everything, and then if it comes back better than expected and is more valuable than expected, THEN I consider resubmitting the ANACS slab to NGC or PCGS.
Grading companies want their pop reports to form nice bell curves and they have a bias to create those bell curves. On the other hand, I saw comments from a stacker that sent in a bunch of ASE and was angry and disappointed because they came back PR69 instead of PR70. He felt all new ASE fresh from the mint should grade PR70. So we have some unrealistic expectations from the submitters also. The old saying goes "buy the coin, not the slab" but I see people assigning value based on the grade on the slab all the time.
I want someone to explain to me how a Washington Quarter with the 10 scratches and gouges on the face of Washington takes the coin down to a MS60 and ten bigger scratches on the face of a 1880 Morgan e.g. gets it a MS64 or MS65.
4:08 your right but also there's a gray area, if its a rare key date or a common date with a rare or key date for the year and mm you might not get the grade you know it is because of the hugh price jump they don't watch give out unless its a exceptional example.
Well let's see, how's it worked out at PCGS with the last sub?
NGC MS66 crackout went to MS63 and 5 of 7 of the rest of the raw Graded went at least lower one level than the premonition.
I'm gluten for punishment as I'm readying another. We'll see if it's a trend. As another commenter alluded to ANACS. I too think they should be utilized, even if it's to break a big two monopoly.
Ok before I start you need to read the whole rant before you judge. I am a kitchen manager in 2019 our average weekly sales were $89,000 I had 32 full time cooks. Today in 2021 average sales are at $125,000 and we have 15 full time cooks. What is happening is in 2020 we said we are going to lay off Jim and he is going to do his job plus Toms job. Jim will be happy because he is working and Tom lives with his mom and as long as he has Ramon Noodles he is good. Then that expectation didnt change until all of a sudden everything was open and no one had masks and everything was a ok!!! Now we cant find people to fill that void. Its not just us its our suppliers, their suppliers as well as our competitors. Everyone is hiring!!! Our average kitchen wage in 2019 was $13.00 today its almost $20 everyone is feeling this. I can see it in the food we receive and in the food we sell. Saturday we served 200 guest an hour for 11 hours with 15 people on they were all there all day! you cant tell me we didnt piss off at minimum a third of them. That is how I see PCGS and NGC instead of 4 peoplr touching each coin its 2 people and 1 of the graders was hired a week ago. So they are tired backed up and there is no end to the ass pounding they feel every day!!! They dont see and end in sight so they grit their teeth and hope its over soon. I have talked to a lot of people who work in customer service industry and they all say the same thing.
I am a PCGS and NGC/PMG member. I believe in third party grading on SOME coins/currency, however I feel the whole thing is a tad out of control.
It's top grade value protectionism of coins and currency by TPG's.
What happens with the coins graded too high years ago?
MS65+ yesterday is today a MS62? That's somebodys life savings....
I do not trust them. I have dozens of coins that are high grade. I have dozens of coins with errors. I am afraid to send them in and be graded by someone having a bad day or is new to this. I would rather have a person such as yourself grade them and then send them in for slabbing. Any takers???
I own the rarest 2020w v75 quarters in existence graded ms68. What’s your opinion on the value?
So, I am a PCGS person, that’s my bias. That said, I currently have an express service order with PCGS that is 4 weeks old. They’ll tell you turnaround is 10 days. No answer yet to an email asking where they are with it. Just frustrating.
I think it’s useless to pay for early turn around time at NGC right now too. You can write early bird on the box so they notice it but that doesn’t mean they’ll get to your box to see the note for 2 weeks. They’ve been weeks up to a month behind just getting the mail from their PO Box there just to get it in the system.
Good video, good info.
I sent in a huge batch of Morgan dollars to NGC. I know how to grade Morgan dollars and 90% of them were way undergraded. This totally destroyed my faith in NGC. I had to crack out so many coins because the grading was so bad. I did get the opinion of others and we all agreed. Im not sure whos driving the bus at NGC but they need to get their act together.
I find it hard to believe that their are 3 graders and a person to check their grade. I can not afford grading but have seen two dimes that I noticed on the secondary market that had mistakes on the label regarding the mint mark. Thanks for being the person that watches the grading companies obvious problem areas. You are my source of coin knowledge and I feel comfortable with your input. You are a special breed and you deserve due recognition. Thanks for all the videos and hours of knowledge.
I think it is a problem with the "First Strike", yada, yada, yada, and all such labeling. I don't trust anything with that kind of labeling because the shear volume pressures the system. A coin is supposedly graded three times (in the blind?) And then arbited. I have seen too many examples that scream "that was not done", or "holy shit, how did they miss that!). There's supposed to be QC, but it looks like Jeffery Toobin is working the arbiter position.
I have a few common Morgan and Peace dollar that I believe could have been graded a grade higher . I am not a coin grader but I know what I see and sometimes I don’t understand the imperfections they detect while grading . Very informative information. Thank you !
AI would absolutely solve the grading problem the problem is it's subjective right now AI would take out the subjectivity of it in base degrade purely on the standards that are set. The fact that grading companies charge by the value of the coin should tell you something, if they're unbiased the value of the coin should be irrelevant to its grade
I agree grading is very inconsistent right now. At same time we're seeing more QC grades, we're also seeing way more very questionable artificial stuff pass through. The grading costs are getting quite high so it's very disappointing. I don't remind getting a weird grade at $12 a coin, when it's $38 I expect better quality. My thoughts were it's because of the quantity coming in and newer graders too.
Pcgs has been putting the wrong dates on my coins;and I think they do it on purpose.
At least an ANACS and ICG coins are genuine. I lost my shirt buying raw coins and sending them in and they come back details on the label. But I do like the NGC Star* and PCGS Gold Shield and the OGH Holders.
AI needs to be the finalizer not a human, this is were the AI can kick it back and the consumer is nver involved.
The wheel on the coin is missed by Ben. Missed by Ben. Missed by Ben. The wheel on the coin is missed by Ben. Someone is lazy.
Musical genius
Wouldn’t it be in the best interest of the numismatic community to try and legitimize anacs as a 3rd seeing how what I’m interpreting is the main 2 aren’t very serious either
A lot of very good points and analysis Ben, I think the grading services are playing games with color on copper coins and I find it interesting that the big auction houses send in dog coins that come back with crazy generous grades.....
There are some people who just can't accept the professional grading.... quit sending them in maybe?
Perfect storm-- crushing volume during a pandemic causes queues at every stage and lowers grading quality; this applies to submissions from all channels, including big dealers. I've seen poor grading with personal submissions and I've returned "MS70" first strikes back to large dealers because they simply aren't MS70. How can you otherwise explain how obvious scratches are missed and given a perfect 70? I would advise not sending anything for grading until things calm down, and avoid buying anything recently slabbed during 2020 or 2021...
How can you tell when a coin was slabbed?
I wonder if the membership level affects the level of grader that reviews the coins this isn’t the first channel that has been frustrated with the grading from pcgs that has come up recently. I’d like to hear more too because this is unacceptable.
How do you find out how much your coin is worth after getting it graded
These days people can not distinguish between 1500 years ago and 15000 years ago never never make an accountant or auditor of History people cannot distinguish between a holy day and a holiday where they are stuck the easiest it cannot distinguish between Central Intelligence authorisation and artificial intelligence algorithm people cannot even distinguish between FBI Federal Bureau investigation and f b r i which is Federal Bureau regulation investigation a lot of the graduate of grading probably suffer from mental stress
Was a PCGS member and stock holder for over twenty years. Their grading has been poor lately. I sold my stock and haven't sent them a coin in a year. They are especially horrible at assigning designations to coins.
I am seeing a lot of coins coming back with the wrong label and entered in database registry wrong. Over 50 coins this week with no cameo attributed cameo. Seeing pr 68 coins that are clearly pr 66. I see proof coins coming back with mint state labels. These are creating top pop coins that dont exist. I now know of 6 top pop lincoln cents that don't exist. You know I am buying up the 2nd to top pop coins that just lost value due to a new top pop that killed their value. I love pcgs. But something is going on there.
Woah- can you DM me pictures on Instagram? Non cameos coming back cameo labels is unreal!
@@TheCoinGeek Here is a video I did on one of the top pop coins that is really proof. I own 2 of the 4 of this top pop and know the other 2 coins are not MS as well as they were graded in same batch. Mystery of the Mistaken Mint State Memorial. Top Pop Scandal. MS 67 Could be the new Top Pop News
The labels on these pr 67 nickels say pr 67 but the registry says pr67cam 42427991 42428009 42427986 42427992 42427993
I listed about 25 pr 66 and pr 67 of these today and yesterday. I just posted them as non cameo. You can find any of them by searching the cert on yourtube or ebay.
A few of the nickels had slight cameo obverse. But nothing on back.
There was a
1955 ms 68 rd last week at auction. Only one of its kind. 99.9 % sure its proof as I won the 2 1955 Pr 68 rd coins right next to it auction. The MS 68 rd went for 6300. You can see its pictures in the sold search on ebay.
1955 1C LINCOLN WHEAT PCGS MS68 RD
@@TimeTravelersCoinExchange Wow that 1955 is really bad. That is quite obviously a proof.
@@TheCoinGeek This is another of my favorites. It used to show up in registry as a MS 67 CAM. I just checked and it has been fixed and registry now says its proof. This was the holy grail coin I believe until it was discovered it was proof. 1958 P Lincoln Wheat Cent PCGS MS 67 RD CAM 21738004 Proof Coin PCGS ERROR LABEL
The owner sold it to me and said PCGS tried hard to get him to send it in to fix label. I love the coin label because it is a impossible coin. How could a MS coin have cameo. Hope you enjoy the thought of such a coin as I do.
I think you do the correct thing by complaining then complaining does make higher standard
Having a career as a cost estimator, we use multiple points of reference, tools and historic data to create our estimates. No reason the same could not be done from a grading perspective. An AI scanning system could be just a DATA POINT the “finalizer” would use along with the teams opinions on the grade of the coins. Can also look back to historical coins that were graded during certain time periods and develop a criteria to help the AI provide accurate data points for grading purposes. It would also be a way to help sharpen your teams accuracy, especially if the new recruits are statistically grading a couple grades lower than the criteria.
Honestly I’ve seen coins graded by ICG and ANACS that I’ve seen in person and I own that by the eye, look more accurate than PCGS and NGC coins that I own . PCGS and NGC always seem to under grade or be “conservative” . Honestly if I am sending out my coins and paying top dollar to have them assessed and graded . Put the grade that the coin deserves because not only does it cost money but it’s costing money . We know the difference between a 64, 65, and 66 could be significant . ANACS has been around longer than any of the other companies am I right ? So why are they not recognized the way NGC and PCGS and only second tier? I have a 1921 high relief peace dollar that PCGS graded EF 40 with great luster and very few contact marks and at the very least should be AU55. To conservative and critical .
This is why I stay away from graded coins except for: Key dates (for Authentication) and odd stuff that I like. I'll buy raw over slabbed 98% of the time.
Just keep buying those microscopically cleaned coins thst are non slabbed.
.....and/or coins that are in fact details coins
@@doughensley6202 And I just UN-Subscribed to this channel. Thanks
@@doughensley6202 You Know you JUST claimed/insinuated that Ben cleans coins. What you don't know is that the ONLY coins I've bought from this channel, where BU coins unrolled in one of the videos.
The problem with the artificial intelligence is that , at first, it will make all kind of stupid mistakes. It will need time and a few million graded coins to get better and better. And a lot of info and already graded coins uploaded.
Rant, Ben Rant! 😡 😡 😡 Sounds like they have new cooks in a kitchen that is also under new management. (Sounds like everyone is new) Listening to your video, I thought maybe it would be best to not send in a group of coins of the same type. In other words, not a group of V nickels or pennies. Might be better to mix them up and send only one or two at a time in different groups for grading. Don't know if this would help, but I enjoy thinking about these issues and watching your videos!! 👍
Thank you! Great thoughts.
Some things never change. Unfortunately the same criticisms I hear today (justified) are the criticisms I heard in the early 2000’s when I left the hobby. At this point I don't let it bother me and avoid any coins where a one point difference in grade means a dramatic jump in price. Enjoy the art, history and science rather than the condition rarity race.
I have had a gut full of miss label slabs
Agree with you Ben, I think NGC is trying to catch up PCGS and being hard on Grading, PCGS are the hardest grading, pretty strick, but I have adjusted, and usually agree with their hard grades. Anacs is getting more accepted out there but needs to be way harder grading to be able to be at the same level than NGC and PCGS. I rather have TPGCs be as hard as possible when grading than have National Numismatic Certification NNC (The No, No) slabs all over again.
I agree, I personally think PCGS has gotten worse in the last 2 years, at this point I doubt that they have 3 people grading a coin or even maintaining a level of quality control.
For the most part I think NGC/PCGS do an excellent job. It has always been my understanding that it is typically 2 graders and a finalizer that look at each coin. NGC says that at least two will examine each coin, so it can vary. I suspect modern bulk submissions would not get the same attention as a high end walk-thru order. And that makes absolute sense as the customer is paying for a different level of service. The area I see that needs improvement is DETAILS grades w/o clear evidence (no hairlines, slight copper coin color variations, etc). Also, we have to remember that it is still not business as usual in most work environments due to Covid. So I can't fault them for taking longer to process orders -- that is understandable. Cheers!
I've been seeing too many 2 point difference crack-outs lately from both NGC and PCGS. I'm chalking it up to turnover, stress due to turnover, and employees with not nearly enough experience/expertise. And when it comes to "2 graders per coin", what good is that if both don't have expertise. I don't see grading getting any better anytime soon.
I've said this many times, what are the credentials of the people grading these coins
I just sent a 72 DDO FS-101 penny to PCGS, that puts their MS67+ RD to shame. It came back MS65 RD. I believe TPG'S low ball current grades to protect the highest grades in high end collections. Coins that should have the top grade or even higher, could inevitably drive down the values in existing collections. That's my skepticism of the 3rd party grading practices. With technology today, I don't understand why TPG'S haven't developed a digital technology grading system which would speed up the process and eliminate human opinion and bias.
Tottaly agree, what pcgs is doing is criminal and they should be criminally charged on a federal level for market manipulation.
Ben the Cleveland Browns are not a bunch of "scrubs". They made it to the AFC Divisional Playoffs last season which was much better than in a long time. As for referring to teams that don't get the respect nor have great potential for the postseason there are organizations like the Jets, Falcons, Jaguars, Lions, etc.
OK so all that sports talk was a bit off topic but getting to coins & TPG's, PCGS is having A LOT OF QUALITY CONTROL ISSUES that need to be taken seriously, since many collectors are "jumping ship" & heading over to NGC.
I have not experienced any major headaches with my NGC membership but now that they are the property of Black Stone I hope it doesn't mean that they will go down the toilet under new ownership!
My nfl bonefides have been wrecked! Although I do remember the falcons being I. The super bowl recently -
But yes the Jaguars-
This issue is getting to the point where CAC stickers are needed sometimes on top of the grade!