as an indigenous person I was pleasantly surprised to hear you cover the history of Colorado far back to the native peoples--most are satisfied to start the history of this land post-colonialism because it's easiest. so thanks! good video!
As a non indigenous person I love any chance to learn what's usually left out, both before colonialism and after 1900. Too many non Natives think no Natives are left at all. (I'm in Ohio.) BTW, whenever I hear about the Western Shoshone, I think about the nuclear test site being on their land. Unforgivable. On a more positive note, I encourage anyone who isn't familiar with Mary and Carrie Dann to look them up. They were amazing women who fought for their people and their land.
I'm in Aspen and it totally disgusts me how out of touch the people are here. I grew up in the northern New Mexico rockies - still a VERY big native presence there, and it's amazing how just across the border it's completely wiped of native tribes - with the exception of southwest Colorado - which is where they shipped them all. But man, there's hardly any acknowledgement of the Ute tribes who lived here not even that long ago, for so many generations, possibly hundreds or thousands. Wow
A common theme in missing 411 cases is the victim being separated from their shoes. If you're going to kidnap someone in the wild, whether in the snow, forest, or desert, the best way to stop or slow their escape is to remove their shoes. See how far you get in the elements without your shoes. And even if you do get far, your feet are in horrible shape.
The best way to stop or slow their escape is to kill them, not taking their shoes. If they are unarmed and you tie them up properly that would also slow them more than taking their shoes. Not in winter or desert but I hike multiple km for fun without shoes hiking, find a game trail and it’s not that bad at all.
As a Colorado native it's astonishing to me that so many educated people, including yourself, have analyzed this case intricately and yet haven't even thought to consider high altitude sickness/psychosis. The dude lived in the midwest and flew to Vail which, like you said, is around 11,000 feet in elevation. Ascending that quickly can make even the most fit person incredibly sick incredibly fast. Add on the fact that he refused to rest and seperared himself from his group, it's safe to say his strange actions are simply the result of high altitude psychosis, followed by hypothermia symptoms, finally leading him into an accident. People need to be more prepared and humble themselves abit before going into the wilderness like this. It doesn't matter if you're an olympian - you can still get hurt and die. Easily.
I dont think you’re incorrect but it doesn’t explain the lack of a trail, and it is the way/location he was found rather than the fact he went missing, that makes this case confounding. There’s also the fact that if he is at the point of psychosis, it doesn’t seem likely he’d be scaling thousands of feet of cliff faces in that condition.
@@weinerherz0g as someone who experiences hypothermic psychosis almost every winter (I'm diabetic), it can happen much faster and much more easily than people think
And 'Altitude Sickness' is one of those strange ailments that sneaks up on you. Like COPD and other degenerative lung functionality issues, your blood remains oxygenated enough to be no problem...until it suddenly, and generally critically, BECOMES a problem. There's a lot of strange stuff going on here, though!
I love how you take the time to speak about the Native peoples, their languages, and lands and you try to make sure to speak them correctly and with respect. It is wonderful of you
As opposed to who? Which RUclips channels are not talking about them respectfully. I want to go check them out to compare and contrast the difference. Or are you just being an ass kisser?
Hello, I grew up in Colombia. Even though I'm skeptical about any supernatural claim, I have had many first account testimonies of (seemingly sane and healthy) people going lost or being found in remote places. One similar story comes from a Colombian army corporal that basically lost one of his soldiers as they slept in a fire position in an active combat zone against a FARC structure. His soldier was found several kilometers away, above ground, and tangled with some sort of jungle ivy and with no immidiate recollection of what had happened ( he had gone for just 6 hours). After securing him (he kept screaming and wanting to go back to the deepest part of the jungle). They were able to put him on a makeshift bed and treated minor lacerations. After a couple of days, when he came to his senses and described being awakened by a beautiful woman who kept luring him, further and further away. At some point, he lost consciousness and just remembered waking up to tell this same story to his army buddies. Mind you, throughout several days before this soldier came back to his normal self, the men could hear him screaming and calling for this woman. Many of those keep guard, kept going missing for a couple of hours, until found on the trees or in the thickest foliage, suffering from the same synthoms. I got so bad that a Blackhawk had to pick the whole company, all 4 platoons, and drop them onto another quadrant.
If any foul play was suspected, on or off record, it is common for the police or whomever is working the case to withold information. Its a way to recognize any possible false witnesses, or people who know more than they say. So, if his friends were suspected to be responsible at any point, its actually very reasonable that authorities dont divulge certain information.
@@nolongerjuicyboiz4413 lol not really. They can't just give out false information. Although, some cases, the investigators asked witnesses to publicly describe something they saw as slightly different, this way, any witnesses that came forward to correct it could be identified as being true. But that's extremely rare and only found in conspiracies.
ive worked with park and summit county search and rescue. even residents in the area experience HAPE and HACE symptoms, aside from hypothermia, which Dr. Mcgrogan seems to have experienced. Even mild hypothermia causes capillaries to swell, making the sun feel a thousand degrees. same reason why many everest victims shed their clothes in storms.
@The Lore Lodge sure...but many here thst experience hypothermia that arent sufficiently acclimated dont notice early symptoms. we rescued a guy off pikes peak last December who was soaking wet a hiking in shorts while the wind chill was 20 below. guy was coherent and perfectly of sound mind at a glance. he didn't realize his boots were on the wrong feet and he'd fallen through a creek crossing. he was from kansas the days before and wanted to summit pikes peak, in winter, for his birthday
@@SpaceCaptnFace I think it’s hard for most people to realize how absolutely irrational people can be in that state - they do things with zero rational plan but people try to figure out “why” they’re doing this and that - but the “why” isn’t anything that makes sense so you can’t figure it out
@@WideAwakeHuman it’s hard for me to believe this when we’ve gone from cave men painting with charcoal to what we are now. If humans were that useless and stupid, we wouldn’t be here.
@@WideAwakeHuman I’ve been an inside kid my whole life I’m 24 with no outdoor experience in camping or hiking and I REFUSE to believe I’d let myself die like this. It’s absurd honestly to think a human that desires life would lose it to such a stupid fucking thing. We have cases of ppl surviving in the rainforest off centipedes and rain water or the guy who was lost at sea for like 8 months, but this guy dies with every potential thing needed to not die??? Yeah. Sure.
Stories like this make me think of a quote from Les Stroud on an old episode of Surivorman where he said something to the effect "The panic of being lost can lead people to become so desparate to get out that they can even refuse to believe their compasses." that always stuck with me.
Les also joined Paulides once to attempt a trek supposedly made by a very young (missing) child who would go on to be found/rescued. If memory serves, he was too young to explain or articulate tye way he traveled on his journey. He was, of course, also too young for it to be easily believed that he made the trek on foot as would be assumed. Anyway, Les attempted to make the exact same trip in same amount of time that the boy was missing. It was only a very short amount of time that passed when Les stopped and told Paulides & crew that there was absolutely no way he could even ATTEMPT the trip wo almost certainly getting seriously injured- or worse. He chose to abandon the attempt immediately.
I think too often we try to apply rational rules to people who were probably acting irrationally. Hypothermia can come on quickly and make you act irrationally. Once that happens, without a buddy to recognize the signs and help, all bets are off. Someone acting irrationally might go anywhere and do anything. They may become convinced that the wrong direction is the right direction, and they will just keep going. They won't use the cell phone or the GPS because in their mind they are not lost.
But after a whole day of not finding the place your supposed to be at you probably start trying to call your friends, so unless he died in the first day then it’s still pretty weird
@@thecasualgoth6666 it’s not out of the question he died within a few hours of walking off trail. If you look at an elevation map between the end of the trail and where his body was found, it’s not as dramatic as the video makes it out to be. Heading east/northeast he wouldn’t have had to go up more than 700 feet.
Absolutely. There are also instances where because of a lack of information, actions appear illogical when - if we were to have said information - such actions would be in keeping with a degree of logic.
Fun fact: the Mormons back when Utah was becoming g a state were afraid of the government coming to take their polygamy. So they saw this big group of men women and children. And then massacred them. Pretending to be Native Americans. Where then the government had to basically kick down the door to take the very young surviors from their murderous kidnappers. Yes this happened. Also. Joe Smith took more than one underage girl unwilling to his bed. Same thing with a LOT of Mormon leaders. I was born in this state. I'm surprised that anyone can like Mormons.
They really set this channel apart, I love the history lessons so much! The info about tribal history makes me so happy, we really don't learn any of this in school here. I ended up asking about my grandma's background because of this channel (I only knew she was "native") and now I'm hoping to get into Shawnee language preservation :)
@@radishfest awesome, you totally should. I'm guessing from your comment that you're fairly young, and I advise asking your grandparents and older relatives (on both sides) as much as you can about themselves and your family history in general. I really regret not asking my maternal grandparents and great grandad more whilst they were alive. Once they're gone, there may be nobody left who can answer your curiosities. Plus it usually makes their day to have someone respect and take an interest in their lives
Something to note about the lack of shoes: one time, when I was skiing as a kid I wiped out and fell directly into a snowbank. Thankfully I only ended up about waist deep in the snow. But because of that, I ended up having to pull my feet out of my boots to escape. The long, thin skis were impossible to pull up out from underneath the snow with just the strength of my legs alone. In my mind, it was a lot easier to dig down to the top of my boots, unlace them, pull my feet out, and then climb around and dig my skis out from the side of the snowbank that I entered from. Of course, once my family finally caught up with me, I got yelled at told I should've dug down far enough to unlatch my boots so my socks didn't get all wet, but it had seemed like a good idea at the time. All that is to say that I could definitely see a scenario where someone might have to remove their heavy boots and skis on the mountain.
One thing it could be is that, some intelligent people have issues recognizing when they're wrong. So could have known he was going the wrong way but refused to double back and kept instead pressing forward
Honestly that's what I thought. Obviously I never knew the guy but he's an ER Doctor who tried 3 times to get into med school. Doctors can be (and often are) a bit full of themselves, for lack of a better word. I do wonder if he was just so adamant he was in the right and so convinced he was going the right way that when he went off trail he didn't even think of turning around. And perhaps confusion from hypothermia set in and he ended up at the top of a cliff. To be honest I think his own ego got him killed. All that said, it's still tragic and he was clearly well loved and gave back to his community. What a shame.
@@sarahr9894 Yes, and apparently in his delusional state, he floated off the trail and didn't leave any tracks in 3-8 feet of snow, from a well packed, well-traveled trail. There is more to this mystery than meets the eye.
There’s so many stories of ppl who hv been found alive that stated they either don’t remember what happened to them when they decided to separate from others, or had no control over their actions / not realizing what they are doing (like leaving their house to go on hikes they’ve never been experienced with and being completely not prepared)
I‘m surprised I never heard anything about this case as I go hunting every year in a spot 10 or so miles northeast of where this incident happened. Now, there is one major factor missing from this explanation that I think is really important here which I know from my own experience of the area. It is what I have named “the dark timbers”. These “dark timbers” are the huge patches of incredible dense pine trees. I call them this because If you go only a few meters into these patches and your visibility immediately drops to a around dozen yards, entire forest become dark as the tal pines block the sun, and the temperature drops considerably. It is very easy to get disoriented after walking only a little ways into the dark timber. Everything in all directions looks like a uniform mess of green pine and branches, almost all sound becomes muffled so that it is dead silent, it is so dense that you are constantly pushing on branches, and the ground is covered in fallen trees making movement incredibly slow and laborious as you have to climb over constant obstacles which spins you around only adding to your disorientation. Some of these fallen trees i have seen stack up and make shear walls 5-6 feet tall. This is where elk and moose make their hiding places, often then can pass within feet of you and you would never even see them, just hear them crashing through and maybe smell them. There have been times where me and my hunting partners have circled around right next to each other without even seeing each-other in there and these patches of dark timber can be small but others can stretch for many miles. Sometimes we have ventured into the dark timber hoping for the prospect of bumping into some game, but it has always been a mistake. Whenever we go in we go in expecting not to be able to retrace our path or find the trail we took to get there. Once in the only way out is usually to press in some direction you know will become open. Sometimes we have gone in and been stuck meandering through it, taking hours to move distances only a mile. Aloso, I recall emerging from the dark timber at places completely unexpected like in the backs of ranches we should not be at or at roads we thought were too far away to reach. If he went into the dark timber, even just a tiny bit to say climb some hill for a picture or to go the bathroom, i could understand if he got disoriented and lost. In the cold and if not acclimated to the altitude it is even easier to get confused. Not to mention a wrong turn on a trail in this area can take you many miles away from where you want to be. If he did take a wrong turn, and decided to cut through dark timber to get back on trail that could also explain his actions. Being lost in the dark timber could explain a few things. The helicopter and searchers would have no hope finding him in there. The forest is just too dense. Also, even if Vail could have been in sight for him, in the Dark timber you would not be able to see it, or even to hear the noise from the interstate. Maybe he stepped into the dark timber, got confused and disoriented, from hypothermia, altitude, or generally lost, and wondered around until it was too dark to see the cliff he walked right off of. As for the gps he had, maybe he did not understand how to use it? Anyway that is my take. I don’t ever bother entering that dark timber anymore myself. Hunting there is too fruitless and cumbersome, not to mention dangerous. However, i still so have occasional nightmares about walking around in that dark timber as the sun is setting, not able to get out fast enough as the pitch black darkness slowly envelopes the forest, overwhelmed by the panic of being lost, i jolt awake, safe in my bed.
Your explanation makes a lot of sense. He talks about the snow and the trail but not the woods. This is a vacation trip so he's not familiar with the terrain or necessarily a skilled person in the wilderness. They mentioned the GPS unit - but if he bought it for the trip and hadn't read the manual or practiced with it, those gadgets can be confusing to figure out so possible under the stress of realizing he was lost/confusion of hypothermia or altitude sickness he might have misread it and gone even more off track. Traveling on skis he could have accidentally gone over the cliff in the dark without being able to stop. A lot of people are making much of the missing boots, but the impact of a 700 ft drop could have knocked his boots off and sent them flying tumbling off into the snow... how would anyone find them.
Is the ski resort it's self known for having these "Dark Timbers"? I totally believe it to be plausible as a native of the piney woods in East Texas we have very similar stretches of woods
The black forest in Germany.is like what you describe as the Dark forest. You can walk into the trees only a few feet and know that you are in trouble. You can't see where you are and the trees block out any way to locate the direction. Panic sets in pretty fast. So,that is a possibility. As you suggest.
I smell bullshit. First off in this area there aren't any pine trees they are all Douglas fur type trees and similarly related trees types not pine trees. Second you said "meters" and although not impossible someone who's familiar with this area would have likely referenced yards or feet, you are most likely not American and therefore not likely very familiar with the area
shoot! it looks like you caught me red handed. Yup, sir you are correct. I just made it all up because I dunno I'm just a freak! I don't know what I will do now that my ruse has been foiled! Darn-tootin I am done for!!@@xxnf99987
Backcountry skiing is no joke. You take your life in your hands any time you head to the wilderness. You can be a lifetime skier but any time you go "off piste" its just you out there. Its like swimming in a kiddie pool vs swimming in the ocean.
This is one of my favorite channels, I binge watch your missing person videos and they make me very very paranoid and depressed. That's a compliment. Your are a very good story teller!
The significance of the fact that he ended up over by Booth Falls is really underplayed, both in this video and in most other summaries I have seen of this case. It helps an enormous amount to have a map open of the whole area. It's not JUST that Booth Falls is a long way away from Eisman Hut and the trail leading up to it, but that Booth Falls is on the complete opposite side of a 12,000 foot high ridgeline! AND that Booth Creek, being on the other side of the ridge, serves an entirely different drainage than Middle Creek (which Spraddle Creek Trailhead runs up). There seems to be some speculation that he might have gotten off onto Red Sandstone/Middle Creek Trail; however, this route to Eisman Hut is on the other side of a lower ridge and achieves Eiseman by going up and over the ridge and descending to it from the backside as opposed to climbing to it from below as with Spraddle Creek Trail; in other words, Red Sandstone/Middle Creek Trail is a physically separate trail with a completely different point of origin, not a trail that intersects with or intertwines with or departs from Spraddle Creek Trail. Anyway, back to Booth Creek - it helps to have some familiarity with the mountains to fully grasp this, but similar to how one does not simply walk into Mordor, one does not simply go up and over a 12,000 foot ridge without knowing it and without doing it being very significant for wayfinding. Eisman Hut is below the ridge. McGrogan, having a decent amount of mountain and backcountry experience and having prepared for this trip for a year would have known this very well, and would not have gone up and over the ridge and passed into the other drainage thinking it was the way to Eisman, because he knew full well he never needed to *make* a ridgetop to get to Eisman, much less pass down a drainage on the backside of a pass. Him being found near in Booth Falls, on the other side of a 12,000' ridgeline, also makes the case very unlikely for him to have seen a fun looking ski route from the trail and to have departed from the trail to hike up to it and ski back down. The reason is that he could not have SEEN any ski terrain on he backside of the high ridgeline between his location in the Middle Creek drainage and his place of final resting in the Booth Creek drainage. They are on opposite sides of the mountain. IF he had departed to ski anything he saw, that would have been in the draw surrounding him at the time - the Middle Creek drainage basin, and having hiked up or skied down within that drainage, it would have made no sense for him to think that he needed to go all the way up and over the 12,000' ridge to get to Eisman Hut. He may have become disoriented and not know EXACTLY where Eisman hut was from his location at all times, but in no scenario would someone with even a modicum of mountaineering experience think that the location of the Hut lay on the opposite side of the ridge (a high, clear tundra ridge by the way - from which one can see all around for miles and easily take one's general bearings).
By the way Aiden, the picture you showed is the new high school. The high school he went to is the middle school (that I went to), which is now rumored to be turning into a YMCA. It's amazing how small the world really is! Chesterton is a good town.
As someone who goes touring and boot packing for skiing I think it’s possible he saw a line he wanted to take hiked all the way up to ski down and then was either to tired or made one mistake and got coiffed out and couldn’t get down without a large drop. Drop killed him and then boom
As someone who personally made a bad decision to leave an established trail on a very long hike by over-estimating my abilities, I was wondering the same thing: Did he see something he wanted to snowboard down and used the split skis to get there and then was in over his head and fell?
I know at least on my phone, and I think it's a pretty common feature, it shows any missed calls to be as long as the person was waiting through the ringing, it going to voicemail after 30 seconds, so all my missed calls that someone waited till the end for say "Missed call: 30 seconds". Sounds to me like he tried to call, but only waited 16 seconds for someone to pick up before hanging up on his own, leading to the missed call saying it was 16 seconds long.
Cell service can be spotty up in the mountains as well. You can have service one step and none the next. Sometimes, when you're making a call like that you don't hear the ring. He could have been moving when making the call, gotten no indication the call was going through and hung up concluding he had no service anywhere.
In most phone logs call time starts as soon as the call connects, including ring time and any time waiting through a voicemail greeting. I tend to agree with you that he hung up while it was still ringing. Or, like the above comment said, that he couldn't hear the ringing because his service was a bit spotty, so he hung up not knowing it ever connected.
18:48 here’s the thing about inferred imagery that not enough people seem to understand. It’s mainly used for night time recon and surveillance because that is when it’s most effective. Also things can still block out the heat signatures of things behind it. It’s not fool proof and if Dr. McGrogan was already hypothermic or possibly deceased by the time they were about to use it if it was used at all, it’s possible it wouldn’t pick him up.
@@richardmoore609up. hell the army is experimenting with AI targeting assistance right now. doing calculations for the pilot in real time so they have to focus on less and are more efficient and focused overall
Inferred is used at night because in combat thermals, it can cause white out and be blinding, thus making it hard to see anything in the daylight. In an SAR situation, in the snow, it's used in the day because what they are looking for would make a stark contrast to the surrounding area. But to your second point, yes, certain materials can obscur inferred like extreme underbrush or a wodded canopy. Vaiel CO does not have thick brush cover. It's a lot of mountain pines. So unless he crawled in a cave or was buried under multiple feet of snow, nothing was going to obscure his IR signature
@@abigailseaney2608 How do you know so much about infrared without knowing how to spell it? (Which also implies you don't know what the word means). Not hating, just honestly surprised.
Wishing you best of luck with those official reports, my gut tells me this case would not be nearly as weird if not for how cagey the authorities are being over very normal details for a closed case. On another note, a possible explanation for the phone call could be a reception thing. There’s been several times when someone has called me and it has rung normally for them but gone to voice mail or just disconnected but on my end the phone never even rang and I just get a missed call notification later on. I could be completely off or there is info we’re missing but just thought I’d throw my 2cents in Thanks for the great vid as always lads!
Agree. People give way too much credit to a cellphone operating perfectly just because it isn't broken. My kids have shown me so many times when they make a call or text to me like they are supposed to, and there is nothing on my phone to indicate it happened, until much later when I get a missed notification.
Same as well, my parents would get mad at me for not answering calls immediately but I never did receive said calls they referred to until later as a missed notification
The helicopter IR cameras not finding Jim of he was alive makes sense. Contrary to popular belief, heat cameras are not actually that effective and even less so if some is wearing more than one layer of clothing as the heat cannot radiate. Considering he was in the mountains, his clothing would have probably made IR completely ineffective
Not only that, but the foliage itself can completely obscure heat signatures even when a person is not wearing clothing designed to trap and reflect heat internally. Even in a sparsely vegetative forest there'll be dense areas scattered throughout that make it difficult for overhead cameras to penetrate and severely limit their effectiveness.
@@lexibat7829 that is what u say but I am OBSESSED with these types of stories and I've never heard of a story were an actual sniffer dog has ever found anyone.
@@egg5256 nope not true. Alot of these cases people just get lost or get hurt and are no longer mobile but they are eventually found, and still in those cases most of those dogs weren't able to catch a scent or they always lose the scent.
@@amirahmohamed7672 it's because there are two kinds of search and rescue dog. Type one (the type who statics lexi bat is citing) are trained to find people who are traped or buried. They don't care who's scent they have just that there is a scent. Type two are what people know as bloodhounds who are trained to follow a specific humans trail. Their statics are much worse.
1LOSTLADY here. You showed up in my RUclips feed, and I'm so glad you did! I love these cases. I'm Choctaw/Blackfoot/Irish so I love the way you cover the history of the areas involved in these cases. Interesting! Thank you for bringing these cases forward and relaying them the way you do! Much love from Alabama ❤
My personal theory is that someone in a chopper found him and they went to air lift him and accidentally dropped him so they just went “Uuuhhhh yes we definitely found him down there. Where did we find his boots and snowboard? Uuuhhh, pshhh you know, just around” and they sorta just went with it
27:00 I've e done snow caving more than once. During the day we would generate enough heat, despite being in 9ft of snow, thst more of us removed our jackets and were digging in our tee shirts.
The Bobby Bizup case was also western Colorado. The east half of the state is flat as Nebraska, the west half is in the mountains. Mount Meeker and Estes Park are almost directly north and slightly east of Vail as the crow flies.
SAR personnel here: - 16 seconds probably refers to the phone ringing or attempting to connect. In wilderness areas calls dont often connect properly so it was most likely an attempted call that didnt ring on the friends end at the time. - We are trained that whenever a person says their family member was very experienced to NOT believe them. Most families say this, and most people really aren’t properly experienced for wilderness outings. People assume that being in good shape means they are experienced. Those are not the same though. This is most likely why there is a discrepancy between the parents and wifes accounts. And to be blunt…the guy sounds inexperienced if he thought going off on his own was a good idea. You hike at the speed of the slowest person in your group, and don’t separate. Often it is the “fast” person who winds up lost due to this. - As a native and someone who works with Tribes in this area, it was cool hearing history and acknowledgment given. Some pronunciations were off (Dine and Havasupai). Id recommend youtubing native speakers for the pronunciations on those. Great and interesting video.
Thanks for sharing (+ helping people). I think folks are always too quick to dismiss "x was overconfident, made a mistake/something went wrong, panicked and acted irrationally" as an answer. Humans are not as rational as we think we are, and nature is much more dangerous than we think.
Did you just try to say you think hes inexperienced cause he decided to hike alone? Experienced hikers tend to go hiking alone all the time. For days at a time. Lol stop talking.
Yeah, his pronunciation was also off for Núuchi-u (Nuche) in this video and Uinta (you-in-tah) re: the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest in the Garrett Bardsley episode.
Possible that he actually fell prior to the fatal fall, hit his head, had a concussion and was suffering from confusion. This might explain the irrational behavior, lack of gps signal, weird phone call, not using cell phone, going in wrong direction, etc. this might have been masked by the fatal injuries.
If it was a fall/crash that took his life, anything he did before that could've been 100% purposeful and just seem strange to us. He could've chose to go off on his own, spend the day climbing and skiing alone, knew exactly where he was up until he fell.
Unforunatley, it looks like a case of attitude sickness which can set in on even the most fit person. I have personally seen this happen when climbing Long's Peak in Colorado. Then hypothermia set in and by stage two people often become disoreintented and begin wandering aimlessly in the wilderness. Five miles or more off course is not unusual with hypothernia.
It's interesting that while moving that far that fast his core temp didn't rise. I work the trades sometimes outside on really cold days. Most of the time a light jacket is way more than plenty to stay not only warm but hot.
I grew up in Colorado and geographically you have 4 distinct zones. Youve got flatville, mountainville, white trashville, and Denver. Sub zones include hippy ville, stoner ville, yuppy ville, and people who ride Harleysville.
Can't forget San Luis Valley either - that's a very unique part of Colorado whose residents are primarily descendents of conquistadors. More like Rio grande valley of New Mexico, than anywhere else.
i think maybe he just wanted to mess around and slide down the tallest point while waiting for his friends, then slipped and fell off. that would explain why the gps thingy wasn’t turned on. maybe he knew where he was going and just wanted to have a adrenaline rush but it ended badly?
I’ve been skiing for 22 years (I’m 27, it honestly shocks me every time I say it and I always feel the need to recheck the math in my head) I am the only skier in my family, and I am and always have been poor. I have *never* owned my own skies, that has absolutely NO bearing on my experience or ability whatsoever. It’s honestly so weird to me that that’s an assumption
It's "so weird" to you that someone might think that someone that does own skiis might be a better skiier than someone who doesn't own skiis? Ok, it might not be true, but you think it's "weird" to make that assumption? The logic makes perfect sense. Calm down and use your brain instead of trying to get offended that someone made a completely reasonable assumption.
I used to be a runner, and I'm familiar with the desire to keep going while others rest. It's really inconvenient to stop after you've hit your second wind, because you will have to hit it again once you get going again. (Second wind is like being in the zone in an aerobic sense.) That takes a lot of extra work a runner doesn't have to do if they keep going. They want to stay in that target zone. So Jim wanting to go on and meet them later is understandable. I agree the evidence is slim. I wonder if they ruled out a cognitive issue due to stroke or something. Maybe he was a dehydrated or his oxygen level was too low because he wasn't used to the altitude. Maybe he was too proud to ask for help. Maybe the police are holding back key facts because they're looking for a suspect who knows them. I can't tell.
I was in Eagle County when this happened. Spent a lot of my childhood on Spraddle Creek. I remember the storm that rolled in, it shut down transportation in Vail that night.There was an overall feeling for me when I heard someone was missing. Having my feelings about it confirmed when DP covered it in a video. So sad.
15:58 actually, Aidan, here in New Hampshire, if you're judged to have recklessly gone into the woods and endangered yourself and/or SAR, you can be charged a fine by NH Fish and Game
When my doctors office lost a huge amount of my files, they lied and charged me an absurd fee to get my files released. That’s when I found out they lost a huge part of my medical history. Maybe the police office you called are doing the same thing? They probably have a mistake to cover up? 🤔🤔🤔
As a Vail resident 😂I am HIGHLY impressed with your research - your background info and your additional info you provided that WASNT in Missing 411. Great fucking job. 🙌🏼
Maybe Jim panicked? Even the most calm and rational people can lose themselves alone out in the wilderness. The problem could've been exacerbated if he wasn't familiar with the trail and started running all over the place. As for why no one could find him, I'm not sure. My best guess is he was delirious, choosing to avoid people. I don't think foul play should be ruled out. You never know with situaitons like these. It's possible his friends murdered him or someone else did.
The weird behaviour of the police and the overall lack of of information does make me suspect foul play. Even if it wasn't the friends, the amount of unclear details are bound to make someone slip up during an interview at some point
Whilst all sorts of things might be true, I think that we should not forget how easily things can look different if the light or weather change & how different things look from a different direction. So if someone leaves the trail, by even just a few yards, maybe looking for a rock or bush to 'go behind' it can suddenly become difficult to be sure of the way back to the trail, especially if one is tired, or if the sun is in ones eyes. If at that point one makes a mistake it is possible to become very far off course & to encounter dangerous terrain or other difficulties. If you leave the trail at all, mark the way by noting small details & by scraping marks, lining up stones or bending foliage etc.
@@knuffelmuff7682 I don't think the police were being weird. With the amount of true crime podcasts and Reddit detectives out there I could totally see them blowing off a random guy calling to ask about a case, and even more so if they knew he was a RUclipsr lol
I fully admit to being someone who likes to lean towards the abnormal explanation but there's an aspect to this story that makes me think of a personal story about the weirdness of woods in winter. Once I was hiking about a hill near my hometown, 4 feet of snow all around and trees to set the scene. As I was walking I started to distinctly hear someone saying "here, hey here" thinking I'd walked onto someone's land and they were being polite in telling me I headed towards it. I nearly tumbled down a steep embankment some snow build up had hidden when I went in the direction of the "voice." I'd take a guess Jim encountered something similar and he didn't luck out in catching the cliff somehow
Excellent video, this case has perplexed me ever since I heard of it. You wonder if there's something we're not being told, it seems ludicrous he ended up where he did without ever once pausing to phone or check his GPS. The journey sounds like a nightmare, maybe he suffered a head trauma on that first day and confusion and hypothermia set in, and no i don't really believe that. His buddies made it to the hut free of any drama, so why didn't Jim, the one with all the experience? Funny the police seem reluctant to say much, only adds to the air of frustration.
I'd love to know where and when his outdoor experience came from. If he was an experienced winter hiker in the Rocky Mountains, sure this is weird. But if he's experienced snowboarding on midwestern slopes and hiking in that part of the country, it's really not that surprising that he could go from missing a turn to lost to panicked, to suffering from hypothermia to dead in 8 hours.
@@bryanwendland235 Agreed,we don't know for sure how pertinent his experience was in that environment, perhaps over confidence played a part. Horrible for his family whatever happened.
My personal theory is and i havent heard anyone else come up with this one either, is that he went on a crack binge. Dude was smoking so much crack and got so high while skiing that he ended up in the ionosphere. Once up there on his way down he hit the jet streams which explains how he got out west so fast. The reason why he doesnt remember is becasue he lost consciousness from the altitude which is understandable
Funny enough my dad is actually the Forrest supervisor for the white river national Forrest (his name is Scott Fitzwilliams you are welcome to look it up). He was in charge of many aspects of the s&r and knows a lot about it. If you have any questions you’d like answered, he said he would be happy to give as many details as he knows.
Unless the supernatural thing/subliminal weapon- like the frequency that makes people uncomfortable enough to leave an area- deliberately sews discourse in a group, to separate one from the herd- for whatever reason- I'm always a little bit suspicious of the stories that start with:... and he suddenly decided to leave his friends. Without accusing anyone of anything, someone in the friend group usually knows more than they're saying.
As a backcountry skier living in CO, this seems like a pretty straightforward case. Travelling in the wilderness especially in the winter is very dangerous. Its very easy to get off track because as you said its deep snow so there is no "trail". His first mistake was seperating from the group. Then he made a mistake in navigation and fell off the cliff. It was also noted that there was a small storm at the time but no accumulation, so the visibility probably wasnt the best. People die in the mountains all the time due to poor choices. Seems pretty rational.
We "conquered" Mexico in much the same way Napoleon "conquered" Russia. We invaded, captured the capital, and sat around looking for someone to surrender. Eventually we just appointed someone to be "in charge" of Mexico so they could sign a treaty that gave us what we wanted. The biggest difference is that we then occupied what portions we wanted. Our goals in Mexico were more realistic than Napoleon's, Territory from a neighbor nation for a railroad verses complete halting of all maritime trade for a far away nation.
Just because you are smart and experienced at high-pressure situations in one area, doesn't mean you have the ability to apply common sense and remain calm when you are in a very different situation. It sounds silly but it's very easy for me to look after others in a crisis, but I'm absolutely useless at looking after myself! It's something I'm really having to work on, I have been described as "lacking common sense" and... Yeah lol. I'm a doctor, but I once injured myself really badly on a long cycling trip. I had phone signal and could have called for help, but I didnt. I was able to dress my injury, but I didn't even attempt to assess how serious it was as I got stuck into the mindset of "you've just got to walk home no matter how bad it is". I tried to take an unfamiliar short cut (I had no map and my phone just made calls, this was in the '90s). I got lost, lost my phone, ran out of water, opened up my cut, and ended up laying on the road bleeding heavily, unable to move. In a completely different area to where my housemate was already searching for me. I was very lucky to be found by a friendly hiker who rushed me to hospital where my colleagues mocked me relentlessly (in a loving manner lol, we were very close.) I still have a gnarley scar on my leg to remind me of my stubbornness and stupidity...
(I say "laying on the road", it wasn't a road, it was a gravel path that wasn't a popular trail or anything, just a path I came across that seemed like a better bet than lying down in the forest where I had been literally crawling. This was my only smart decision and what saved me from serious injury or worse, as by this point the tourniquet wasn't preventing blood loss and I was falling out of consciousness.)
I still to this day have no answer as to why I didn't realise how serious my injury was, when I would have immediately known if it was on someone else, or why I didn't just call for help. There is a reason doctors don't treat themselves - you just can't see things clearly when it happens to you, and doctors often have quite a high ego and can be over-confident and stubborn when it comes to their own capabilities. I learnt a harsh lesson that day, and I believe it made me a better doctor and a better person. I was lucky. I don't think I would have died, the overall area wasn't huge and I'm sure someone would have checked the short cut, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility if as I was exhausted, dehydrated and had lost a decent amount of blood. I could easily have lost a limb, though.
Knowing a few ppl who think they are better at things than they are, I’m thinking he went up a wrong trail. He got to the top and figured he’d just board over to the right trail. Unless they had been there many times, he could have easily been turned around. He fell boarding over unfamiliar territory. He undressed a bit because the air can get quite warm while all the snow is on the ground(another reason Colorado is fast increasing in population). Besides, he at that point may have been struggling and heated up. I think it’s sad and tragic but hardly supernatural. Great story though. Fwiw, your amount of research is self evident. I really enjoy your story telling and facts you add to enrich the scene. David P does his thing but to me, it’s just silliness for a good story. Not to say he doesn’t investigate. It’s just I’m gonna need waaay more evidence before I believe Aliens are zooming around snatching randos and spewing them out 4.5 miles from where they got them. Great job!
Also, I think his boot or boots were knocked off in the fall. If he fell violently,as they said, the force could have pulled them off. (much like being struck by a car)
Just like the boy they found 300ft up a cliff that experienced rock climbers were having major problems getting up,but a 4 year old scaled it???? I don't think so.
Hey guys love the channel. Just some feedback. Have you considered changing your into and outro music. I love to listen to this while falling asleep and quite often I find the music wakes me up! Maybe something a bit calmer? Love your work!
Honestly, every video that starts with history, I always get so caught up with the history I forget there’s a whole other point to the video until you start talking about someone dying or going missing.😅
I’m so glad to have found your channel. I appreciate your hard work. Hugs from the great state of Colorado. I love how you represent the indigenous peoples. As oglaga Lakota I say “pilyomia” (thank you)
It’s actually pretty odd for an avid skier\snowboarder to NOT bring their own gear. People are pretty particular with what they like. I’m a poor college student but I prioritize brining my own skiing/climbing gear on trips.
I wonder if this isn't a dyatlov pass situation, where the ice fell on him, instead of him falling. It could explain the cellphone still working, and height he would have otherwise had to climb.
One thing that I've noticed is that in a good number of these types of cases, if the person is found, they are found miles away from where they should have been, or even could have been. There must be something to that.
Missing shoes is actually common in car accidents as well. The force can literally knock their shoes off. So it might be that the shoes just fell off at some point and got separated from the body
Well done. I have the book version of this case. Very strange. Suggestion: It would be helpful if you'd use the maps and pointers while discussing the various aspects of the case, rather than just naming the trails. We need visuals....and this is a visual media. And, have you considered calling the people that last saw him? They might be willing to talk to you. Thank you.
You should do a video on the Suscan Screamer. I only ever seen one video on youtube (but the channel is very obscure) of it but it seems super interesting and I bet you would be able to get a lot more info. Plus your own views on it. would be interesting.
every skateboarder knows, if you wipe out hard enough, your shoes pop off. Sometimes they even eject off with force, its probably got something to do with your body acting as a rubber band and whipping them off, but if you've ever seen it in real time it just looks like your body took too much force and decided to ejecto shoes as a result. This guy fell 700 feet... thats like the most intense spill of all time, his boots probably auto ejected and landed up in a tree somewhere. he probably hit the side of the hill on the way down and thats when the boots popped off.
Everybody has different ways of telling a story. And I think it's commendable of you to acknowledge the original interviewer. I also enjoyed listening to your version as well because you give tidbits that you might not get elsewhere and vice versa. Basically, as long as the Storyteller gives credit to the original storyteller? I see no issue
Great summary/analysis👍. The case of the Gerrish family needs an in depth, knee deep minute research just like these case/s. The former is one of the most baffling mysteries, and the lack of coverage (mostly) and serious in depth analysis, even more baffling
I know this was like 11 months ago and I'm just watching it now, but when you mentioned that the helicopters couldn't find him on infrared I just wanted to mention that some winter coats/jackets do come with an insulated layer made out of the same stuff thermal blankets are; and they do hide thermal signatures as they tend to keep most if not all the heat inside the jacket hidden behind that layer.
I really appreciate you revisiting these. I believe in the supernatural, but I try not to consider it until you have excluded rational explanations, and more hikers need to be aware of the dangers of getting lost, altitude sickness, hypothermia and that your electronics may not save you if you are not in a fit stage to use them, or believe you do not need them. Stay safe out there ❤️
Occam's razor: he got deeply lost in unfamiliar terrain, and in a tired/disoriented state fell off a cliff in the dark. If he wasn't well versed with the GPS unit (which he likely bought for trip), it's possible he could have misread that tech and been led even more off course.
Vail, CO. is one of the most beautiful places in the USA. Vail is a very small town, down between steep mountain tops, in a short valley. The entire area is EXTREMELY precarious. It would be easy to- get off track, have a devastating fall, be smothered or buried in a mini avalanche, be over exerted from how steep it is, be disoriented from the sky, if it's overcast, and be disoriented from low oxygen levels and cold. Sounds like he got lost off trail, & tried to hike out, & had a bad accident- all of which is extremely easy to do in that area. It's hard for you to hypothesize, if you've never been there.
24:50 - That sounds exactly like when David Paulides said he tried to get some info on a list of missing people from the national park service and was met with fierce resistance. If I remember correctly, I think he said that at first they denied that a list even existed. Then they admitted that there was a list, but that it was going to cost 1.4 million dollar fee to have it. Until eventually they just straight up told him he was never going to get that list! You’d think they’d want to get as much coverage on missing people as possible to get the word out and all. But for whatever reason they seem hesitant. I mean I could see if a case was still open you don’t want to hurt the investigation by letting key evidence out in the open. But on solved or really really old cold cases why not? I don’t know it’s just crazy, sure seems like something weird is going on!
police having a (measurable) capacity to empathize with victims of crime, police providing a truthful accounting of events, police respectung their duty to preserve and maintain a record accessible by the public? Not likely.
@@r.c.rosario8435 good job on presenting how little about anything you actually know. Their first duty is to offer the facts that get the person found. Anything short of that is fraudulent at best.
Anything kept secret by our government is done to keep them from losing money so they will never tell us what's going on deep within our national forests. These lands needed to be preserved and protected for more than just the obvious reasons.
He went ahead of his friends despite their plans to stick together. Did he intend on meeting someone clandestinely in another location? That meeting goes wrong, and he ends up dead. Or are his friends saying less than they know? Not too mysterious, in my opinion.
The big history lesson at the beginning was very surprising but it was an awesome addition to the video! Definitely didnt expect it when i clicked, but i was immediately drawn in lol
Us paulides people are definitely dedicated! Dave is good at what he does and a good man all around!! At the same time I think you are a damn good storygeller!! You have a good thing going!! I appreciate you mentioning Paulides! I'd mention his name everytime you know you should!! I'd think he'd respect that!!
I was search and rescue that day Jim went missing, I will say we all were stunned and shocked, for Jim To go missing he would of had to climb big mountains and to get lost and get off the trail would be a hard thing to do, for all the comments above that day hypothermia etc, you have no clue what these mountains were like that day. Weather was good and not cold. We still til this day wonder how we missed Jim and did not find him.
as an indigenous person I was pleasantly surprised to hear you cover the history of Colorado far back to the native peoples--most are satisfied to start the history of this land post-colonialism because it's easiest. so thanks! good video!
As a non indigenous person I love any chance to learn what's usually left out, both before colonialism and after 1900. Too many non Natives think no Natives are left at all. (I'm in Ohio.) BTW, whenever I hear about the Western Shoshone, I think about the nuclear test site being on their land. Unforgivable. On a more positive note, I encourage anyone who isn't familiar with Mary and Carrie Dann to look them up. They were amazing women who fought for their people and their land.
I'm in Aspen and it totally disgusts me how out of touch the people are here. I grew up in the northern New Mexico rockies - still a VERY big native presence there, and it's amazing how just across the border it's completely wiped of native tribes - with the exception of southwest Colorado - which is where they shipped them all. But man, there's hardly any acknowledgement of the Ute tribes who lived here not even that long ago, for so many generations, possibly hundreds or thousands. Wow
I'm just part indian - I don't know about being idigen- errr whatever that means
I'm just part indian - I don't know about being idigen- errr whatever that means
@@davidrice3337 indigenous literally just means someone who lived in an area before colonization? use google man it isnt hard
A common theme in missing 411 cases is the victim being separated from their shoes. If you're going to kidnap someone in the wild, whether in the snow, forest, or desert, the best way to stop or slow their escape is to remove their shoes.
See how far you get in the elements without your shoes. And even if you do get far, your feet are in horrible shape.
Good point.
Honestly.... From reading most of the 411 cases, People can go pretty damned far barefooted..... :|
@Chris Fesko but they end up dead.
@@alikarol3 They still get really far tho!
The best way to stop or slow their escape is to kill them, not taking their shoes. If they are unarmed and you tie them up properly that would also slow them more than taking their shoes. Not in winter or desert but I hike multiple km for fun without shoes hiking, find a game trail and it’s not that bad at all.
As a Colorado native it's astonishing to me that so many educated people, including yourself, have analyzed this case intricately and yet haven't even thought to consider high altitude sickness/psychosis. The dude lived in the midwest and flew to Vail which, like you said, is around 11,000 feet in elevation. Ascending that quickly can make even the most fit person incredibly sick incredibly fast. Add on the fact that he refused to rest and seperared himself from his group, it's safe to say his strange actions are simply the result of high altitude psychosis, followed by hypothermia symptoms, finally leading him into an accident. People need to be more prepared and humble themselves abit before going into the wilderness like this. It doesn't matter if you're an olympian - you can still get hurt and die. Easily.
I dont think you’re incorrect but it doesn’t explain the lack of a trail, and it is the way/location he was found rather than the fact he went missing, that makes this case confounding. There’s also the fact that if he is at the point of psychosis, it doesn’t seem likely he’d be scaling thousands of feet of cliff faces in that condition.
@@weinerherz0g as someone who experiences hypothermic psychosis almost every winter (I'm diabetic), it can happen much faster and much more easily than people think
@@chaoticsalemstill doesn't explain how he left no trail for people to follow, unless his sickness gave him the power to float over the ground.
@@csolivais1979 would have been covered by the storm, most likely. Blizzards strike hard and fast.
And 'Altitude Sickness' is one of those strange ailments that sneaks up on you. Like COPD and other degenerative lung functionality issues, your blood remains oxygenated enough to be no problem...until it suddenly, and generally critically, BECOMES a problem.
There's a lot of strange stuff going on here, though!
I love how you take the time to speak about the Native peoples, their languages, and lands and you try to make sure to speak them correctly and with respect. It is wonderful of you
The Utes were slavers they don’t deserve any respect
I don't. This isn't the history channel.
As opposed to who? Which RUclips channels are not talking about them respectfully. I want to go check them out to compare and contrast the difference. Or are you just being an ass kisser?
@@michaelwhite2823🤡
@@michaelwhite2823shut it whitey
Hello, I grew up in Colombia. Even though I'm skeptical about any supernatural claim, I have had many first account testimonies of (seemingly sane and healthy) people going lost or being found in remote places. One similar story comes from a Colombian army corporal that basically lost one of his soldiers as they slept in a fire position in an active combat zone against a FARC structure. His soldier was found several kilometers away, above ground, and tangled with some sort of jungle ivy and with no immidiate recollection of what had happened ( he had gone for just 6 hours). After securing him (he kept screaming and wanting to go back to the deepest part of the jungle). They were able to put him on a makeshift bed and treated minor lacerations. After a couple of days, when he came to his senses and described being awakened by a beautiful woman who kept luring him, further and further away. At some point, he lost consciousness and just remembered waking up to tell this same story to his army buddies. Mind you, throughout several days before this soldier came back to his normal self, the men could hear him screaming and calling for this woman. Many of those keep guard, kept going missing for a couple of hours, until found on the trees or in the thickest foliage, suffering from the same synthoms. I got so bad that a Blackhawk had to pick the whole company, all 4 platoons, and drop them onto another quadrant.
Do you think they have taken or been given drugs? nobody remembers anything, end up miles from where they went missing from.
they were prob given drugs without knowing to keep them alert and to be able to walk for miles.
What year was this? There are technologies that can induce hallucinations, to keep it simple
@@louiseharraway2599 Losing consciousness is a bit counterproductive to staying alert, is it not??
If any foul play was suspected, on or off record, it is common for the police or whomever is working the case to withold information. Its a way to recognize any possible false witnesses, or people who know more than they say. So, if his friends were suspected to be responsible at any point, its actually very reasonable that authorities dont divulge certain information.
Sure but he said the case was closed. He said if the case was still going he would understand but it's not.
@@richardmoore609 I wonder if it's been publicly closed but privately investigated
In that case, they'd just flat out refuse to give information, and the case wouldn't be open.
@@nolongerjuicyboiz4413 lol not really. They can't just give out false information. Although, some cases, the investigators asked witnesses to publicly describe something they saw as slightly different, this way, any witnesses that came forward to correct it could be identified as being true. But that's extremely rare and only found in conspiracies.
@@kristinsevin *sorry i meant wouldn't, not would.
ive worked with park and summit county search and rescue. even residents in the area experience HAPE and HACE symptoms, aside from hypothermia, which Dr. Mcgrogan seems to have experienced. Even mild hypothermia causes capillaries to swell, making the sun feel a thousand degrees. same reason why many everest victims shed their clothes in storms.
Very likely he suffered from hypothermia at some point, but he had the means to call for help long before that.
@The Lore Lodge sure...but many here thst experience hypothermia that arent sufficiently acclimated dont notice early symptoms. we rescued a guy off pikes peak last December who was soaking wet a hiking in shorts while the wind chill was 20 below. guy was coherent and perfectly of sound mind at a glance. he didn't realize his boots were on the wrong feet and he'd fallen through a creek crossing. he was from kansas the days before and wanted to summit pikes peak, in winter, for his birthday
@@SpaceCaptnFace I think it’s hard for most people to realize how absolutely irrational people can be in that state - they do things with zero rational plan but people try to figure out “why” they’re doing this and that - but the “why” isn’t anything that makes sense so you can’t figure it out
@@WideAwakeHuman it’s hard for me to believe this when we’ve gone from cave men painting with charcoal to what we are now. If humans were that useless and stupid, we wouldn’t be here.
@@WideAwakeHuman I’ve been an inside kid my whole life I’m 24 with no outdoor experience in camping or hiking and I REFUSE to believe I’d let myself die like this. It’s absurd honestly to think a human that desires life would lose it to such a stupid fucking thing. We have cases of ppl surviving in the rainforest off centipedes and rain water or the guy who was lost at sea for like 8 months, but this guy dies with every potential thing needed to not die??? Yeah. Sure.
Stories like this make me think of a quote from Les Stroud on an old episode of Surivorman where he said something to the effect "The panic of being lost can lead people to become so desparate to get out that they can even refuse to believe their compasses." that always stuck with me.
I love Survivor Man!
Absolutely true. People do make decisions in denial of the evidence in front of them: that, in itself, is not uncommon.
Les also joined Paulides once to attempt a trek supposedly made by a very young (missing) child who would go on to be found/rescued.
If memory serves, he was too young to explain or articulate tye way he traveled on his journey.
He was, of course, also too young for it to be easily believed that he made the trek on foot as would be assumed.
Anyway, Les attempted to make the exact same trip in same amount of time that the boy was missing. It was only a very short amount of time that passed when Les stopped and told Paulides & crew that there was absolutely no way he could even ATTEMPT the trip wo almost certainly getting seriously injured- or worse. He chose to abandon the attempt immediately.
I think too often we try to apply rational rules to people who were probably acting irrationally. Hypothermia can come on quickly and make you act irrationally. Once that happens, without a buddy to recognize the signs and help, all bets are off. Someone acting irrationally might go anywhere and do anything. They may become convinced that the wrong direction is the right direction, and they will just keep going. They won't use the cell phone or the GPS because in their mind they are not lost.
Also, if you get lost hiking through 8 feet of snow, panic is gonna set in fast and rational thought goes out the window.
But after a whole day of not finding the place your supposed to be at you probably start trying to call your friends, so unless he died in the first day then it’s still pretty weird
Exactly!
@@thecasualgoth6666 it’s not out of the question he died within a few hours of walking off trail. If you look at an elevation map between the end of the trail and where his body was found, it’s not as dramatic as the video makes it out to be. Heading east/northeast he wouldn’t have had to go up more than 700 feet.
Absolutely. There are also instances where because of a lack of information, actions appear illogical when - if we were to have said information - such actions would be in keeping with a degree of logic.
Got invested into the initial history backgound and forgot that wasnt even the main topic. Need more history based videos
Fun fact: the Mormons back when Utah was becoming g a state were afraid of the government coming to take their polygamy. So they saw this big group of men women and children. And then massacred them. Pretending to be Native Americans. Where then the government had to basically kick down the door to take the very young surviors from their murderous kidnappers. Yes this happened.
Also. Joe Smith took more than one underage girl unwilling to his bed. Same thing with a LOT of Mormon leaders.
I was born in this state. I'm surprised that anyone can like Mormons.
They really set this channel apart, I love the history lessons so much! The info about tribal history makes me so happy, we really don't learn any of this in school here.
I ended up asking about my grandma's background because of this channel (I only knew she was "native") and now I'm hoping to get into Shawnee language preservation :)
Definitely
@@radishfestthat's fantastic!
@@radishfest awesome, you totally should. I'm guessing from your comment that you're fairly young, and I advise asking your grandparents and older relatives (on both sides) as much as you can about themselves and your family history in general. I really regret not asking my maternal grandparents and great grandad more whilst they were alive. Once they're gone, there may be nobody left who can answer your curiosities. Plus it usually makes their day to have someone respect and take an interest in their lives
Something to note about the lack of shoes: one time, when I was skiing as a kid I wiped out and fell directly into a snowbank. Thankfully I only ended up about waist deep in the snow. But because of that, I ended up having to pull my feet out of my boots to escape. The long, thin skis were impossible to pull up out from underneath the snow with just the strength of my legs alone. In my mind, it was a lot easier to dig down to the top of my boots, unlace them, pull my feet out, and then climb around and dig my skis out from the side of the snowbank that I entered from.
Of course, once my family finally caught up with me, I got yelled at told I should've dug down far enough to unlatch my boots so my socks didn't get all wet, but it had seemed like a good idea at the time.
All that is to say that I could definitely see a scenario where someone might have to remove their heavy boots and skis on the mountain.
I've been in four car accidents all bad...in all four I lost my shoes due to velocity. A moving object hitting an immovable object.
One thing it could be is that, some intelligent people have issues recognizing when they're wrong. So could have known he was going the wrong way but refused to double back and kept instead pressing forward
Honestly that's what I thought. Obviously I never knew the guy but he's an ER Doctor who tried 3 times to get into med school. Doctors can be (and often are) a bit full of themselves, for lack of a better word. I do wonder if he was just so adamant he was in the right and so convinced he was going the right way that when he went off trail he didn't even think of turning around. And perhaps confusion from hypothermia set in and he ended up at the top of a cliff.
To be honest I think his own ego got him killed. All that said, it's still tragic and he was clearly well loved and gave back to his community. What a shame.
Not really, intelligent people tend to underestimate their ability, while not so smart people tend to overestimate
@@sarahr9894 Yes, and apparently in his delusional state, he floated off the trail and didn't leave any tracks in 3-8 feet of snow, from a well packed, well-traveled trail. There is more to this mystery than meets the eye.
@@illeagle9560 This is the correct comment.
This came to my mind too.
The existence of the moose is the ONE thing that terrifies me more than running into the wendigo.
i was really confused for a minute why youd be terrified of running into wendigoon bc i forgot about the wendigo's said existence 💀💀
@@febrieze running into Wendigoon seems like it'd be pretty pleasant lol.
Not A moose? But THE moose? What has this particular moose done that makes it so terrifying?!?
The moose started the wendigo tale so he wouldn't have to catch anymore charges🎉
@@spookyskelly5276 definitely agree, love that mans - id die on a hill for him, maybe even fight a moose
There’s so many stories of ppl who hv been found alive that stated they either don’t remember what happened to them when they decided to separate from others, or had no control over their actions / not realizing what they are doing (like leaving their house to go on hikes they’ve never been experienced with and being completely not prepared)
I‘m surprised I never heard anything about this case as I go hunting every year in a spot 10 or so miles northeast of where this incident happened. Now, there is one major factor missing from this explanation that I think is really important here which I know from my own experience of the area. It is what I have named “the dark timbers”.
These “dark timbers” are the huge patches of incredible dense pine trees. I call them this because If you go only a few meters into these patches and your visibility immediately drops to a around dozen yards, entire forest become dark as the tal pines block the sun, and the temperature drops considerably. It is very easy to get disoriented after walking only a little ways into the dark timber. Everything in all directions looks like a uniform mess of green pine and branches, almost all sound becomes muffled so that it is dead silent, it is so dense that you are constantly pushing on branches, and the ground is covered in fallen trees making movement incredibly slow and laborious as you have to climb over constant obstacles which spins you around only adding to your disorientation. Some of these fallen trees i have seen stack up and make shear walls 5-6 feet tall. This is where elk and moose make their hiding places, often then can pass within feet of you and you would never even see them, just hear them crashing through and maybe smell them. There have been times where me and my hunting partners have circled around right next to each other without even seeing each-other in there and these patches of dark timber can be small but others can stretch for many miles.
Sometimes we have ventured into the dark timber hoping for the prospect of bumping into some game, but it has always been a mistake. Whenever we go in we go in expecting not to be able to retrace our path or find the trail we took to get there. Once in the only way out is usually to press in some direction you know will become open. Sometimes we have gone in and been stuck meandering through it, taking hours to move distances only a mile. Aloso, I recall emerging from the dark timber at places completely unexpected like in the backs of ranches we should not be at or at roads we thought were too far away to reach.
If he went into the dark timber, even just a tiny bit to say climb some hill for a picture or to go the bathroom, i could understand if he got disoriented and lost. In the cold and if not acclimated to the altitude it is even easier to get confused. Not to mention a wrong turn on a trail in this area can take you many miles away from where you want to be. If he did take a wrong turn, and decided to cut through dark timber to get back on trail that could also explain his actions.
Being lost in the dark timber could explain a few things. The helicopter and searchers would have no hope finding him in there. The forest is just too dense. Also, even if Vail could have been in sight for him, in the Dark timber you would not be able to see it, or even to hear the noise from the interstate.
Maybe he stepped into the dark timber, got confused and disoriented, from hypothermia, altitude, or generally lost, and wondered around until it was too dark to see the cliff he walked right off of. As for the gps he had, maybe he did not understand how to use it?
Anyway that is my take. I don’t ever bother entering that dark timber anymore myself. Hunting there is too fruitless and cumbersome, not to mention dangerous. However, i still so have occasional nightmares about walking around in that dark timber as the sun is setting, not able to get out fast enough as the pitch black darkness slowly envelopes the forest, overwhelmed by the panic of being lost, i jolt awake, safe in my bed.
Your explanation makes a lot of sense. He talks about the snow and the trail but not the woods. This is a vacation trip so he's not familiar with the terrain or necessarily a skilled person in the wilderness. They mentioned the GPS unit - but if he bought it for the trip and hadn't read the manual or practiced with it, those gadgets can be confusing to figure out so possible under the stress of realizing he was lost/confusion of hypothermia or altitude sickness he might have misread it and gone even more off track. Traveling on skis he could have accidentally gone over the cliff in the dark without being able to stop.
A lot of people are making much of the missing boots, but the impact of a 700 ft drop could have knocked his boots off and sent them flying tumbling off into the snow... how would anyone find them.
Is the ski resort it's self known for having these "Dark Timbers"? I totally believe it to be plausible as a native of the piney woods in East Texas we have very similar stretches of woods
The black forest in Germany.is like what you describe as the Dark forest. You can walk into the trees only a few feet and know that you are in trouble. You can't see where you are and the trees block out any way to locate the direction. Panic sets in pretty fast. So,that is a possibility. As you suggest.
I smell bullshit. First off in this area there aren't any pine trees they are all Douglas fur type trees and similarly related trees types not pine trees. Second you said "meters" and although not impossible someone who's familiar with this area would have likely referenced yards or feet, you are most likely not American and therefore not likely very familiar with the area
shoot! it looks like you caught me red handed. Yup, sir you are correct. I just made it all up because I dunno I'm just a freak! I don't know what I will do now that my ruse has been foiled! Darn-tootin I am done for!!@@xxnf99987
Backcountry skiing is no joke. You take your life in your hands any time you head to the wilderness. You can be a lifetime skier but any time you go "off piste" its just you out there. Its like swimming in a kiddie pool vs swimming in the ocean.
This is one of my favorite channels, I binge watch your missing person videos and they make me very very paranoid and depressed. That's a compliment. Your are a very good story teller!
maybe you should watch some positive , up lifting shows! But the stories of these people disappearing are sad. Theres a balance in life.
You made me sign up thank you 👍
Hahahaha!!!
Lol. You like feeling paranoid and depressed?
I too practice emotional self-harm! Hello fellow practitioner 👋🏽
The significance of the fact that he ended up over by Booth Falls is really underplayed, both in this video and in most other summaries I have seen of this case. It helps an enormous amount to have a map open of the whole area. It's not JUST that Booth Falls is a long way away from Eisman Hut and the trail leading up to it, but that Booth Falls is on the complete opposite side of a 12,000 foot high ridgeline! AND that Booth Creek, being on the other side of the ridge, serves an entirely different drainage than Middle Creek (which Spraddle Creek Trailhead runs up). There seems to be some speculation that he might have gotten off onto Red Sandstone/Middle Creek Trail; however, this route to Eisman Hut is on the other side of a lower ridge and achieves Eiseman by going up and over the ridge and descending to it from the backside as opposed to climbing to it from below as with Spraddle Creek Trail; in other words, Red Sandstone/Middle Creek Trail is a physically separate trail with a completely different point of origin, not a trail that intersects with or intertwines with or departs from Spraddle Creek Trail. Anyway, back to Booth Creek - it helps to have some familiarity with the mountains to fully grasp this, but similar to how one does not simply walk into Mordor, one does not simply go up and over a 12,000 foot ridge without knowing it and without doing it being very significant for wayfinding. Eisman Hut is below the ridge. McGrogan, having a decent amount of mountain and backcountry experience and having prepared for this trip for a year would have known this very well, and would not have gone up and over the ridge and passed into the other drainage thinking it was the way to Eisman, because he knew full well he never needed to *make* a ridgetop to get to Eisman, much less pass down a drainage on the backside of a pass. Him being found near in Booth Falls, on the other side of a 12,000' ridgeline, also makes the case very unlikely for him to have seen a fun looking ski route from the trail and to have departed from the trail to hike up to it and ski back down. The reason is that he could not have SEEN any ski terrain on he backside of the high ridgeline between his location in the Middle Creek drainage and his place of final resting in the Booth Creek drainage. They are on opposite sides of the mountain. IF he had departed to ski anything he saw, that would have been in the draw surrounding him at the time - the Middle Creek drainage basin, and having hiked up or skied down within that drainage, it would have made no sense for him to think that he needed to go all the way up and over the 12,000' ridge to get to Eisman Hut. He may have become disoriented and not know EXACTLY where Eisman hut was from his location at all times, but in no scenario would someone with even a modicum of mountaineering experience think that the location of the Hut lay on the opposite side of the ridge (a high, clear tundra ridge by the way - from which one can see all around for miles and easily take one's general bearings).
By the way Aiden, the picture you showed is the new high school. The high school he went to is the middle school (that I went to), which is now rumored to be turning into a YMCA. It's amazing how small the world really is! Chesterton is a good town.
Funny you say that, I literally drove through Chesterton yesterday evening 😮
I live near Westville and the way my ears PERKED🤣🤣🤣
As someone who goes touring and boot packing for skiing I think it’s possible he saw a line he wanted to take hiked all the way up to ski down and then was either to tired or made one mistake and got coiffed out and couldn’t get down without a large drop. Drop killed him and then boom
As someone who personally made a bad decision to leave an established trail on a very long hike by over-estimating my abilities, I was wondering the same thing: Did he see something he wanted to snowboard down and used the split skis to get there and then was in over his head and fell?
But wouldn't they still be able to find his trail?
Some how I don't think he went almost 5 miles without his friends to snowboard down a hill he probably didn't even know was there.
I know at least on my phone, and I think it's a pretty common feature, it shows any missed calls to be as long as the person was waiting through the ringing, it going to voicemail after 30 seconds, so all my missed calls that someone waited till the end for say "Missed call: 30 seconds". Sounds to me like he tried to call, but only waited 16 seconds for someone to pick up before hanging up on his own, leading to the missed call saying it was 16 seconds long.
Cell service can be spotty up in the mountains as well. You can have service one step and none the next. Sometimes, when you're making a call like that you don't hear the ring. He could have been moving when making the call, gotten no indication the call was going through and hung up concluding he had no service anywhere.
In most phone logs call time starts as soon as the call connects, including ring time and any time waiting through a voicemail greeting. I tend to agree with you that he hung up while it was still ringing. Or, like the above comment said, that he couldn't hear the ringing because his service was a bit spotty, so he hung up not knowing it ever connected.
That’s what I was thinking the whole time too. Soon as it starts ringing the “time” starts. I thought everyone knew that.
The aliens always make people take their shoes off and hang their coats before walking on the carpets!!!😊
Your delivery on each story is spot on. I can listen to you and Keith Morrison.
18:48 here’s the thing about inferred imagery that not enough people seem to understand. It’s mainly used for night time recon and surveillance because that is when it’s most effective. Also things can still block out the heat signatures of things behind it. It’s not fool proof and if Dr. McGrogan was already hypothermic or possibly deceased by the time they were about to use it if it was used at all, it’s possible it wouldn’t pick him up.
Modern Jayhawks have electro optical imaging.
@@richardmoore609up. hell the army is experimenting with AI targeting assistance right now. doing calculations for the pilot in real time so they have to focus on less and are more efficient and focused overall
Inferred is used at night because in combat thermals, it can cause white out and be blinding, thus making it hard to see anything in the daylight. In an SAR situation, in the snow, it's used in the day because what they are looking for would make a stark contrast to the surrounding area. But to your second point, yes, certain materials can obscur inferred like extreme underbrush or a wodded canopy. Vaiel CO does not have thick brush cover. It's a lot of mountain pines. So unless he crawled in a cave or was buried under multiple feet of snow, nothing was going to obscure his IR signature
@@abigailseaney2608 How do you know so much about infrared without knowing how to spell it? (Which also implies you don't know what the word means). Not hating, just honestly surprised.
@@MateoVanHoutenprobably was an accident that he misspelled it
Wishing you best of luck with those official reports, my gut tells me this case would not be nearly as weird if not for how cagey the authorities are being over very normal details for a closed case.
On another note, a possible explanation for the phone call could be a reception thing. There’s been several times when someone has called me and it has rung normally for them but gone to voice mail or just disconnected but on my end the phone never even rang and I just get a missed call notification later on. I could be completely off or there is info we’re missing but just thought I’d throw my 2cents in
Thanks for the great vid as always lads!
Agree. People give way too much credit to a cellphone operating perfectly just because it isn't broken. My kids have shown me so many times when they make a call or text to me like they are supposed to, and there is nothing on my phone to indicate it happened, until much later when I get a missed notification.
totally agree. my kids have made calls that are send to voice mail with no notification.
Same as well, my parents would get mad at me for not answering calls immediately but I never did receive said calls they referred to until later as a missed notification
The helicopter IR cameras not finding Jim of he was alive makes sense. Contrary to popular belief, heat cameras are not actually that effective and even less so if some is wearing more than one layer of clothing as the heat cannot radiate. Considering he was in the mountains, his clothing would have probably made IR completely ineffective
Not only that, but the foliage itself can completely obscure heat signatures even when a person is not wearing clothing designed to trap and reflect heat internally. Even in a sparsely vegetative forest there'll be dense areas scattered throughout that make it difficult for overhead cameras to penetrate and severely limit their effectiveness.
Yupe same with sniffer dogs, they just aren't that accurate...
@@lexibat7829 that is what u say but I am OBSESSED with these types of stories and I've never heard of a story were an actual sniffer dog has ever found anyone.
@@egg5256 nope not true. Alot of these cases people just get lost or get hurt and are no longer mobile but they are eventually found, and still in those cases most of those dogs weren't able to catch a scent or they always lose the scent.
@@amirahmohamed7672 it's because there are two kinds of search and rescue dog.
Type one (the type who statics lexi bat is citing) are trained to find people who are traped or buried. They don't care who's scent they have just that there is a scent.
Type two are what people know as bloodhounds who are trained to follow a specific humans trail. Their statics are much worse.
1LOSTLADY here. You showed up in my RUclips feed, and I'm so glad you did! I love these cases. I'm Choctaw/Blackfoot/Irish so I love the way you cover the history of the areas involved in these cases. Interesting! Thank you for bringing these cases forward and relaying them the way you do! Much love from Alabama ❤
My personal theory is that someone in a chopper found him and they went to air lift him and accidentally dropped him so they just went “Uuuhhhh yes we definitely found him down there. Where did we find his boots and snowboard? Uuuhhh, pshhh you know, just around” and they sorta just went with it
I like this theory! 😂
Wow! I was picturing that exact same scenario!
It's pretty difficult to fall out of the basket no?
Legit
That's brilliant and would fit perfectly with the title of this video.
27:00 I've e done snow caving more than once. During the day we would generate enough heat, despite being in 9ft of snow, thst more of us removed our jackets and were digging in our tee shirts.
The Bobby Bizup case was also western Colorado. The east half of the state is flat as Nebraska, the west half is in the mountains. Mount Meeker and Estes Park are almost directly north and slightly east of Vail as the crow flies.
SAR personnel here:
- 16 seconds probably refers to the phone ringing or attempting to connect. In wilderness areas calls dont often connect properly so it was most likely an attempted call that didnt ring on the friends end at the time.
- We are trained that whenever a person says their family member was very experienced to NOT believe them. Most families say this, and most people really aren’t properly experienced for wilderness outings. People assume that being in good shape means they are experienced. Those are not the same though. This is most likely why there is a discrepancy between the parents and wifes accounts. And to be blunt…the guy sounds inexperienced if he thought going off on his own was a good idea. You hike at the speed of the slowest person in your group, and don’t separate. Often it is the “fast” person who winds up lost due to this.
- As a native and someone who works with Tribes in this area, it was cool hearing history and acknowledgment given. Some pronunciations were off (Dine and Havasupai). Id recommend youtubing native speakers for the pronunciations on those.
Great and interesting video.
Thanks for sharing (+ helping people). I think folks are always too quick to dismiss "x was overconfident, made a mistake/something went wrong, panicked and acted irrationally" as an answer. Humans are not as rational as we think we are, and nature is much more dangerous than we think.
Did you just try to say you think hes inexperienced cause he decided to hike alone? Experienced hikers tend to go hiking alone all the time. For days at a time. Lol stop talking.
Yeah, his pronunciation was also off for Núuchi-u (Nuche) in this video and Uinta (you-in-tah) re: the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest in the Garrett Bardsley episode.
I'm impressed, you pronounced Schuylkill correctly.
I live next to it
Hypothermia, hypoxia, dehydration, and depression. One or all of this can overwhelm; don’t hike alone.
Possible that he actually fell prior to the fatal fall, hit his head, had a concussion and was suffering from confusion. This might explain the irrational behavior, lack of gps signal, weird phone call, not using cell phone, going in wrong direction, etc. this might have been masked by the fatal injuries.
If it was a fall/crash that took his life, anything he did before that could've been 100% purposeful and just seem strange to us. He could've chose to go off on his own, spend the day climbing and skiing alone, knew exactly where he was up until he fell.
That may be, bur still doesn't explain how he left the last place he was known to be without leaving any tracks.
As a colorado splitboarder, southern rocky history lover and paranormal enthusiast .. this video is appreciated on all levels
Unforunatley, it looks like a case of attitude sickness which can set in on even the most fit person. I have personally seen this happen when climbing Long's Peak in Colorado. Then hypothermia set in and by stage two people often become disoreintented and begin wandering aimlessly in the wilderness. Five miles or more off course is not unusual with hypothernia.
It's interesting that while moving that far that fast his core temp didn't rise. I work the trades sometimes outside on really cold days. Most of the time a light jacket is way more than plenty to stay not only warm but hot.
I've had (attitude) sickness my whole life
I got altitude sickness once and it was horrible! Luckily, I was able to simply turn around and walk back down the mountain!
Attitude sickness has cost me jobs and girlfriends 😒
my youngest brother (20) has chronic attitude sickness and it's gonna end up getting him forcefed a knuckle sandwich.
I grew up in Colorado and geographically you have 4 distinct zones. Youve got flatville, mountainville, white trashville, and Denver.
Sub zones include hippy ville, stoner ville, yuppy ville, and people who ride Harleysville.
On point 👏🏻
So pretty much like most other states in the USA.
What about the rez
Can't forget San Luis Valley either - that's a very unique part of Colorado whose residents are primarily descendents of conquistadors. More like Rio grande valley of New Mexico, than anywhere else.
& just for ‘vacaville’
i think maybe he just wanted to mess around and slide down the tallest point while waiting for his friends, then slipped and fell off. that would explain why the gps thingy wasn’t turned on. maybe he knew where he was going and just wanted to have a adrenaline rush but it ended badly?
I’ve been skiing for 22 years (I’m 27, it honestly shocks me every time I say it and I always feel the need to recheck the math in my head) I am the only skier in my family, and I am and always have been poor. I have *never* owned my own skies, that has absolutely NO bearing on my experience or ability whatsoever. It’s honestly so weird to me that that’s an assumption
It's "so weird" to you that someone might think that someone that does own skiis might be a better skiier than someone who doesn't own skiis? Ok, it might not be true, but you think it's "weird" to make that assumption? The logic makes perfect sense. Calm down and use your brain instead of trying to get offended that someone made a completely reasonable assumption.
Proper use of a reference as an opener, and that’s what I appreciates about you sir!
Enjoyed the way you told the story , it was informative and easy to follow , interesting video .
I used to be a runner, and I'm familiar with the desire to keep going while others rest. It's really inconvenient to stop after you've hit your second wind, because you will have to hit it again once you get going again. (Second wind is like being in the zone in an aerobic sense.) That takes a lot of extra work a runner doesn't have to do if they keep going. They want to stay in that target zone. So Jim wanting to go on and meet them later is understandable.
I agree the evidence is slim. I wonder if they ruled out a cognitive issue due to stroke or something. Maybe he was a dehydrated or his oxygen level was too low because he wasn't used to the altitude. Maybe he was too proud to ask for help. Maybe the police are holding back key facts because they're looking for a suspect who knows them. I can't tell.
I was in Eagle County when this happened. Spent a lot of my childhood on Spraddle Creek. I remember the storm that rolled in, it shut down transportation in Vail that night.There was an overall feeling for me when I heard someone was missing. Having my feelings about it confirmed when DP covered it in a video. So sad.
How bad was the storm really? In the video he makes it sound like light snow fall.
15:58 actually, Aidan, here in New Hampshire, if you're judged to have recklessly gone into the woods and endangered yourself and/or SAR, you can be charged a fine by NH Fish and Game
This is another case that’ll drive you wild when you ponder it. It’s maddening that we’ll never know.
_Missing Enigma_ just put an interesting video out today on the topic _missing, vanished people._ Worth a look. 👍
Thank you
He does a great job... I keep thinking about that poor guy they found 53 yrs later under the rock 😳
I was so engrossed with the beginning history that I forgot what the video about 😂 I could learn history from you all day.
When my doctors office lost a huge amount of my files, they lied and charged me an absurd fee to get my files released. That’s when I found out they lost a huge part of my medical history. Maybe the police office you called are doing the same thing? They probably have a mistake to cover up? 🤔🤔🤔
As a Vail resident 😂I am HIGHLY impressed with your research - your background info and your additional info you provided that WASNT in Missing 411. Great fucking job. 🙌🏼
Maybe Jim panicked? Even the most calm and rational people can lose themselves alone out in the wilderness. The problem could've been exacerbated if he wasn't familiar with the trail and started running all over the place. As for why no one could find him, I'm not sure. My best guess is he was delirious, choosing to avoid people.
I don't think foul play should be ruled out. You never know with situaitons like these. It's possible his friends murdered him or someone else did.
The weird behaviour of the police and the overall lack of of information does make me suspect foul play. Even if it wasn't the friends, the amount of unclear details are bound to make someone slip up during an interview at some point
Whilst all sorts of things might be true, I think that we should not forget how easily things can look different if the light or weather change & how different things look from a different direction. So if someone leaves the trail, by even just a few yards, maybe looking for a rock or bush to 'go behind' it can suddenly become difficult to be sure of the way back to the trail, especially if one is tired, or if the sun is in ones eyes. If at that point one makes a mistake it is possible to become very far off course & to encounter dangerous terrain or other difficulties.
If you leave the trail at all, mark the way by noting small details & by scraping marks, lining up stones or bending foliage etc.
@@knuffelmuff7682 I don't think the police were being weird. With the amount of true crime podcasts and Reddit detectives out there I could totally see them blowing off a random guy calling to ask about a case, and even more so if they knew he was a RUclipsr lol
I fully admit to being someone who likes to lean towards the abnormal explanation but there's an aspect to this story that makes me think of a personal story about the weirdness of woods in winter. Once I was hiking about a hill near my hometown, 4 feet of snow all around and trees to set the scene. As I was walking I started to distinctly hear someone saying "here, hey here" thinking I'd walked onto someone's land and they were being polite in telling me I headed towards it. I nearly tumbled down a steep embankment some snow build up had hidden when I went in the direction of the "voice." I'd take a guess Jim encountered something similar and he didn't luck out in catching the cliff somehow
old indian legends about this they call it the humming beaver who taught man about medicine. 1:1 with the legends
IR just lets you see in the dark, not heat signatures. I think what you were thinking of is a thermal camera on the black hawks, not just IR.
I,very much,appreciate the extra effort put forth to add the Time Stamps..🙂
Big Thumbs Up 👍
Excellent video, this case has perplexed me ever since I heard of it. You wonder if there's something we're not being told, it seems ludicrous he ended up where he did without ever once pausing to phone or check his GPS.
The journey sounds like a nightmare, maybe he suffered a head trauma on that first day and confusion and hypothermia set in, and no i don't really believe that.
His buddies made it to the hut free of any drama, so why didn't Jim, the one with all the experience?
Funny the police seem reluctant to say much, only adds to the air of frustration.
I'd love to know where and when his outdoor experience came from. If he was an experienced winter hiker in the Rocky Mountains, sure this is weird. But if he's experienced snowboarding on midwestern slopes and hiking in that part of the country, it's really not that surprising that he could go from missing a turn to lost to panicked, to suffering from hypothermia to dead in 8 hours.
@@bryanwendland235 Agreed,we don't know for sure how pertinent his experience was in that environment, perhaps over confidence played a part. Horrible for his family whatever happened.
My personal theory is and i havent heard anyone else come up with this one either, is that he went on a crack binge. Dude was smoking so much crack and got so high while skiing that he ended up in the ionosphere. Once up there on his way down he hit the jet streams which explains how he got out west so fast. The reason why he doesnt remember is becasue he lost consciousness from the altitude which is understandable
"I'll mention the boots in a moment..." Ah, classic Missing 411 case. Weird shoe shit
Funny enough my dad is actually the Forrest supervisor for the white river national Forrest (his name is Scott Fitzwilliams you are welcome to look it up). He was in charge of many aspects of the s&r and knows a lot about it. If you have any questions you’d like answered, he said he would be happy to give as many details as he knows.
Unless the supernatural thing/subliminal weapon- like the frequency that makes people uncomfortable enough to leave an area- deliberately sews discourse in a group, to separate one from the herd- for whatever reason- I'm always a little bit suspicious of the stories that start with:... and he suddenly decided to leave his friends.
Without accusing anyone of anything, someone in the friend group usually knows more than they're saying.
* sows discord
Especially how one of them said he was with them the entire time.
I love all the native history and linguistic info! Thank you!
Thank you so much, great information. Have the friends been investigated throughly, or are the the friends related to the cops.
Very precise video, providing excellent information.
Love the content!! Much love and appreciation from south Florida stay safe.
Would love a dedicated American history channel from you guys.
9:00 NGL, I definitely forgot this was a Missing 411 video. I thought I was getting a history lesson! 😆
As a backcountry skier living in CO, this seems like a pretty straightforward case. Travelling in the wilderness especially in the winter is very dangerous. Its very easy to get off track because as you said its deep snow so there is no "trail". His first mistake was seperating from the group. Then he made a mistake in navigation and fell off the cliff. It was also noted that there was a small storm at the time but no accumulation, so the visibility probably wasnt the best. People die in the mountains all the time due to poor choices. Seems pretty rational.
It's also possible for wind to cover up the tracks pretty quickly even if it's not snowing at the time
We "conquered" Mexico in much the same way Napoleon "conquered" Russia. We invaded, captured the capital, and sat around looking for someone to surrender. Eventually we just appointed someone to be "in charge" of Mexico so they could sign a treaty that gave us what we wanted. The biggest difference is that we then occupied what portions we wanted. Our goals in Mexico were more realistic than Napoleon's, Territory from a neighbor nation for a railroad verses complete halting of all maritime trade for a far away nation.
I've heard about this event. Truly begs to be a classic Missing 411. There seems to be zero solution that fills in all the blanks
It’s weird how often the people that are not looking find the missing person
Just because you are smart and experienced at high-pressure situations in one area, doesn't mean you have the ability to apply common sense and remain calm when you are in a very different situation.
It sounds silly but it's very easy for me to look after others in a crisis, but I'm absolutely useless at looking after myself! It's something I'm really having to work on, I have been described as "lacking common sense" and... Yeah lol.
I'm a doctor, but I once injured myself really badly on a long cycling trip. I had phone signal and could have called for help, but I didnt.
I was able to dress my injury, but I didn't even attempt to assess how serious it was as I got stuck into the mindset of "you've just got to walk home no matter how bad it is".
I tried to take an unfamiliar short cut (I had no map and my phone just made calls, this was in the '90s). I got lost, lost my phone, ran out of water, opened up my cut, and ended up laying on the road bleeding heavily, unable to move. In a completely different area to where my housemate was already searching for me.
I was very lucky to be found by a friendly hiker who rushed me to hospital where my colleagues mocked me relentlessly (in a loving manner lol, we were very close.)
I still have a gnarley scar on my leg to remind me of my stubbornness and stupidity...
(I say "laying on the road", it wasn't a road, it was a gravel path that wasn't a popular trail or anything, just a path I came across that seemed like a better bet than lying down in the forest where I had been literally crawling. This was my only smart decision and what saved me from serious injury or worse, as by this point the tourniquet wasn't preventing blood loss and I was falling out of consciousness.)
I still to this day have no answer as to why I didn't realise how serious my injury was, when I would have immediately known if it was on someone else, or why I didn't just call for help. There is a reason doctors don't treat themselves - you just can't see things clearly when it happens to you, and doctors often have quite a high ego and can be over-confident and stubborn when it comes to their own capabilities.
I learnt a harsh lesson that day, and I believe it made me a better doctor and a better person. I was lucky. I don't think I would have died, the overall area wasn't huge and I'm sure someone would have checked the short cut, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility if as I was exhausted, dehydrated and had lost a decent amount of blood. I could easily have lost a limb, though.
if my doctor was a furry i'd scream at the top of my lungs
Great storytelling .I appriciate your history and geography additional informations. Thank you
Was not expecting a Star Wars reference to ever be the intro to one of your videos.
Knowing a few ppl who think they are better at things than they are, I’m thinking he went up a wrong trail. He got to the top and figured he’d just board over to the right trail. Unless they had been there many times, he could have easily been turned around. He fell boarding over unfamiliar territory. He undressed a bit because the air can get quite warm while all the snow is on the ground(another reason Colorado is fast increasing in population). Besides, he at that point may have been struggling and heated up. I think it’s sad and tragic but hardly supernatural. Great story though. Fwiw, your amount of research is self evident. I really enjoy your story telling and facts you add to enrich the scene. David P does his thing but to me, it’s just silliness for a good story. Not to say he doesn’t investigate. It’s just I’m gonna need waaay more evidence before I believe Aliens are zooming around snatching randos and spewing them out 4.5 miles from where they got them. Great job!
Also, I think his boot or boots were knocked off in the fall. If he fell violently,as they said, the force could have pulled them off. (much like being struck by a car)
Just like the boy they found 300ft up a cliff that experienced rock climbers were having major problems getting up,but a 4 year old scaled it???? I don't think so.
People who are dieing of hypothermia feel "hot" and often take their clothes off to try and cool down.
@@amywill9185 Agree. the force of that fall would have sent them flying off deep into the snow.
Hey guys love the channel. Just some feedback. Have you considered changing your into and outro music. I love to listen to this while falling asleep and quite often I find the music wakes me up! Maybe something a bit calmer? Love your work!
I discern Jim panicked because he ran into something pretty scary. Thus, frantickly was running away from it in a hurry.
Any cats(mountain,puma,etc.)? In that area,then???
@@beeperbugs6535 Yes, bears as well.
Or the abonable snowman.
I found your channel through Wendigoon, quite glad I did. I really enjoy listening to your videos, thank you for sharing :)
Honestly, every video that starts with history, I always get so caught up with the history I forget there’s a whole other point to the video until you start talking about someone dying or going missing.😅
I’m so glad to have found your channel. I appreciate your hard work. Hugs from the great state of Colorado. I love how you represent the indigenous peoples. As oglaga Lakota I say “pilyomia” (thank you)
It’s actually pretty odd for an avid skier\snowboarder to NOT bring their own gear. People are pretty particular with what they like. I’m a poor college student but I prioritize brining my own skiing/climbing gear on trips.
And you are completely right in doing that way.
I wonder if this isn't a dyatlov pass situation, where the ice fell on him, instead of him falling. It could explain the cellphone still working, and height he would have otherwise had to climb.
with the phone call he made, i believe that jim called somebody and it rung for 14 seconds until he hung up.
One thing that I've noticed is that in a good number of these types of cases, if the person is found, they are found miles away from where they should have been, or even could have been. There must be something to that.
They take the shoes because they know that we can’t run away or escape fast without shoes.
Missing shoes is actually common in car accidents as well. The force can literally knock their shoes off. So it might be that the shoes just fell off at some point and got separated from the body
Well done. I have the book version of this case. Very strange. Suggestion: It would be helpful if you'd use the maps and pointers while discussing the various aspects of the case, rather than just naming the trails. We need visuals....and this is a visual media. And, have you considered calling the people that last saw him? They might be willing to talk to you. Thank you.
I refuse to listen to any other creator other than lore lodge to fall asleep to.
You should do a video on the Suscan Screamer. I only ever seen one video on youtube (but the channel is very obscure) of it but it seems super interesting and I bet you would be able to get a lot more info. Plus your own views on it. would be interesting.
Literally vids all over on it
every skateboarder knows, if you wipe out hard enough, your shoes pop off. Sometimes they even eject off with force, its probably got something to do with your body acting as a rubber band and whipping them off, but if you've ever seen it in real time it just looks like your body took too much force and decided to ejecto shoes as a result. This guy fell 700 feet... thats like the most intense spill of all time, his boots probably auto ejected and landed up in a tree somewhere. he probably hit the side of the hill on the way down and thats when the boots popped off.
Everybody has different ways of telling a story. And I think it's commendable of you to acknowledge the original interviewer. I also enjoyed listening to your version as well because you give tidbits that you might not get elsewhere and vice versa. Basically, as long as the Storyteller gives credit to the original storyteller? I see no issue
the tidbits your talking about are made up.
Great summary/analysis👍. The case of the Gerrish family needs an in depth, knee deep minute research just like these case/s. The former is one of the most baffling mysteries, and the lack of coverage (mostly) and serious in depth analysis, even more baffling
I know this was like 11 months ago and I'm just watching it now, but when you mentioned that the helicopters couldn't find him on infrared I just wanted to mention that some winter coats/jackets do come with an insulated layer made out of the same stuff thermal blankets are; and they do hide thermal signatures as they tend to keep most if not all the heat inside the jacket hidden behind that layer.
You can still see it. After a little while, heat starts seeping through if your body is touching it.
I really appreciate you revisiting these. I believe in the supernatural, but I try not to consider it until you have excluded rational explanations, and more hikers need to be aware of the dangers of getting lost, altitude sickness, hypothermia and that your electronics may not save you if you are not in a fit stage to use them, or believe you do not need them.
Stay safe out there ❤️
Occam's razor: he got deeply lost in unfamiliar terrain, and in a tired/disoriented state fell off a cliff in the dark. If he wasn't well versed with the GPS unit (which he likely bought for trip), it's possible he could have misread that tech and been led even more off course.
Vail, CO. is one of the most beautiful places in the USA. Vail is a very small town, down between steep mountain tops, in a short valley. The entire area is EXTREMELY precarious. It would be easy to- get off track, have a devastating fall, be smothered or buried in a mini avalanche, be over exerted from how steep it is, be disoriented from the sky, if it's overcast, and be disoriented from low oxygen levels and cold. Sounds like he got lost off trail, & tried to hike out, & had a bad accident- all of which is extremely easy to do in that area. It's hard for you to hypothesize, if you've never been there.
24:50 - That sounds exactly like when David Paulides said he tried to get some info on a list of missing people from the national park service and was met with fierce resistance.
If I remember correctly, I think he said that at first they denied that a list even existed.
Then they admitted that there was a list, but that it was going to cost 1.4 million dollar fee to have it.
Until eventually they just straight up told him he was never going to get that list!
You’d think they’d want to get as much coverage on missing people as possible to get the word out and all. But for whatever reason they seem hesitant.
I mean I could see if a case was still open you don’t want to hurt the investigation by letting key evidence out in the open.
But on solved or really really old cold cases why not?
I don’t know it’s just crazy, sure seems like something weird is going on!
police having a (measurable) capacity to empathize with victims of crime, police providing a truthful accounting of events, police respectung their duty to preserve and maintain a record accessible by the public? Not likely.
@@r.c.rosario8435 good job on presenting how little about anything you actually know. Their first duty is to offer the facts that get the person found. Anything short of that is fraudulent at best.
Anything kept secret by our government is done to keep them from losing money so they will never tell us what's going on deep within our national forests. These lands needed to be preserved and protected for more than just the obvious reasons.
Thanks!
He went ahead of his friends despite their plans to stick together. Did he intend on meeting someone clandestinely in another location? That meeting goes wrong, and he ends up dead. Or are his friends saying less than they know? Not too mysterious, in my opinion.
The big history lesson at the beginning was very surprising but it was an awesome addition to the video! Definitely didnt expect it when i clicked, but i was immediately drawn in lol
Us paulides people are definitely dedicated! Dave is good at what he does and a good man all around!! At the same time I think you are a damn good storygeller!! You have a good thing going!! I appreciate you mentioning Paulides! I'd mention his name everytime you know you should!! I'd think he'd respect that!!
Great video Aiden❤ Lol when I moved to Philadelphia I thought it was pronounced the Shy-kill river😂😂😂my roommate was like “haha what did you say?”
I was search and rescue that day Jim went missing, I will say we all were stunned and shocked, for Jim
To go missing he would of had to climb big mountains and to get lost and get off the trail would be a hard thing to do, for all the comments above that day hypothermia etc, you have no clue what these mountains were like that day. Weather was good and not cold. We still til this day wonder how we missed Jim and did not find him.
Do y'all have any theories/could he have been missing more than one day? SAR is intense, thanks for doing what you do 💜
Oh you were SAR that day?? That’s interesting my cousin works for VMRG.