Can Keir Starmer reclaim English identity?
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2024
- We were joined in the studio by Tom Baldwin and Mark Stears to chat England, Englishness and identity, on the release of their book England: Seven Myths That Changed A Country.
In this interview Oli speaks to the authors about
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You couldn't possibly engineer a wetter pair of simping libs than these two. The minute you raise a genuine point of contention that anyone under 45 has with the status quo, the thought terminating statements 'for the birds', 'laughable' come out with no argument at all.
Incredible stuff.
It's about working within systems and pushing them when necessary. Blair did more for working people than Benn or Corbyn or momentum ever have
I am Irish in Belfast so certainly not a fan of the England team, but I do think the current generation of players is a big part of the change the atmosphere and attitude towards them. Just one example being Bukayo Saka who is not only a world class talent but also a fantastic young man with a great attitude and set of values, and who has endeared himself to the people just by being himself on and off the pitch !!
they are wrong about the main point, Keir Starmer is DEEPLY unpopular he is winning purely due to the total collape of the torys (also SNP)
it seems most people want an indie party but reform is a bit ehhh
It's like picking your favourite hemorrhoid
Fingers on the pulse of the nation these two though! 🫠
Well that's a big fat lie, he is not deeply unpopular except in your mind and your mates. He has great qualities but yeah he isn't a beer chugging thug which makes him unappealing to some
@@bereal6590 basically all polling, while showing a LARGE Labour lead (38% of the electorate supporting) that's primarily due to a total collapse of the Tory vote. Starmers personal polling however is dire (approximately -25-30% meaning 25-30% more people dislike him than like him, thats comparable to some of the worst personal polling Corbyn experienced (desperate the VERY different media coverage))
"1.5 million homes" Eughh Labours housing policy is the same as the tories, 1.5 million over 5 years is the same as 300,000 a year! Sick of people who grew up of everything telling people who didn't that they can't have the basics because it's "unrealistic" when it's actually about protecting their own unearned privilege of being born in the right couple of decades.
I think the point being made is that the Tories have the same target but are consistantly no where near it. Because planning is broken in Britain, too much power goes to all the NIMBYs that complain that there's not enough houses and simutainiously refuse to allow new homes to be built near them
@@callumtyler686 212000 last year. The issue is the reliance on "the market" and Labours policy doesn't address that, what we need is local government planning with council houses built at scale with support from Central government. We need around 1 million homes a year each year for a decade. Labour's plan doesn't provide close to what we need and it's still just a target, there's nothing to suggest they'll hit theirs and then they will be in the same place as the tories. Aiming low and missing.
@Cronhour, seriously moaning about labour who haven't been in power for 14 years. Petty and pointless and FYI after 14 years of tory everything needs sorting, stop expecting perfection at the outset
@@bereal6590 because I want them to have non tory policy rather then a mother shot government that's in a red rather than blue tie. Blair more responsible for the current housing crisis than Sunak, pretending they're good just because they're in red is a serious easy to be in the same situation in 10 years time
Get your name on the ballots and I'll vote for you as you definitely have all the answers @Cronhour
/s
"he melts into the background with the other middle-aged men better than any politician I've ever seen..." 😭that cracked me up man, laughed on the tube ffs
With this standard of shilling on Starmers side who needs enemies??
That red tory class traitor is nearly as unpopular as Sunak in the polls and he aint even in yet😅 SMH we are so royally effed, i reckon if starmer and reeves austerity plans go on unchecked they might usher in a full on fascist conservative party government in 5 or 10 years
you can just about see Oli trying not to laugh too I reckon
He's far more ordinary than say Jeremy Corbyn is, is that not a quality we should want in our politicians and awareness of how ordinary people live ?
Going to close the video now. I can already smell the bs. "Nobody wants big ideas, it's fine Starmer is not a powerful leader, we had a load of zoom calls in 2020 so we think Starmer is 10/10."
Saying Starmer is not a politician is a downright lie. It's true he never wanted to be PM - so who put him there? They admit it isn't ideology because Starmer doesn't have one, so whose ideology does he serve.
Headline; mam living in Australia says it's OK Starmer will continue the managed decline of the UK.
Wow. I live in Blackpool and I find the default low expectations and dismissal of any effort to harvest the potential of young people astonishingly patronising. Just give up on a better future and give carers a pat on the back (instead of decent pay)
I’m not usually one to take offence as I’m well aware of the sorry state the town is in but to say any efforts to change things are hopeless is just plain wrong… thank goodness these two only have the power to appease London superiority complexes and spaff think tank drainage into the void.
New Labour, certainly from a youth perspective, in 1997 revelled in the nostalgia of cool Britannia and Britpop. Guess Tom and Mark weren't big Oasis fans.
"my faction is good actually despite all evidence to the contrary" Managed decline continues it seems
Scraping the barrel on this one Oli.
Former Times reporter and a guy who taught Liz Truss politics.
Was Dave at 'spoons a bit busy then?
Orwell’s “The Lion and the Unicorn” is the absolute pivotal text in reclaiming Englishness for the left.
These guys read on Starmer is bizarre, and probably tainted by them being part of the establishment, writing biographies of him etc.
Keir Starmer simply does not come across like this guy who has stumbled into politics and finds it vaguely disgusting. He isn’t some ordinary fella in the pub who wants to do the right thing.
He’s an awkward, stiff-shirt authoritarian, a Blairite with all the warmongering and none of the vision, a big square husk of a bloke with no specific principles except building power and removing dissenting voices.
He was elected on the promise of carrying forward the Socialist principles that make the Labour party a meaningful entity and he has systematically abandoned each one.
He has done this at a time when the Tory party are so completely fucked that he could really have done anything and still got elected.
He supported blocking food, water and medical aid to dying families in Gaza. Then he lied about doing so, despite the fact he was on air.
He has already been sworn in by Rupert Murdoch over cocktails. He is already in the pocket of a family who have spent 40 years cleaving away the working class from the left wing of British politics.
Do not trust him.
I've never seen anyone so eloquently sum up Keir Starmer, you've nailed it.
I usually just end up using a bunch of expletives to describe him, so your words are comparatively measured
The right are going on strike as soon as these traitors are elected.
Ok I don't trust him. But I'm still going to vote for him because any vote otherwise is supporting the conservatives - that's the reality in this country.
@@412752ful The day after the Labour victory no one’s gonna care any more about who won the election. That’s when we’re going to find out who we’ve voted for
I agree completely with all of this
One word answer.
No.
Politicsjoe: Young people should have a house. Be able to afford to live .
Two loaded blokes from Oxford: you canr have it all
Listener: They def have buy to lets or and holiday homes
Authors: "Don't be ashamed of being British, centre and substantiate our national identity, quiet competency, Keir Starmer is the future"
Keir Starmer: "Israel has 'the right' to withhold energy and water from Gaza."
Yup, that tracks.
Big fat lie, he did not say that. Try harder
@@bereal6590
LBC to October 11th 2023
Starmer told Ferrari: “I’m very clear, Israel must have that right, does have that right, to defend herself and Hamas bears responsibility.”
Ferrari pressed him: “A siege is appropriate? Cutting off power? Cutting off water?”
Starmer replied: “I think that Israel does have that right".
Do you l ack reading comprehension or simply honesty @bereal6590 ?
@@bereal6590 He said it and he supports apartheid "without qualification"
The first modern English turn took place in 1979. Margaret Thatcher was the first conceptually post-UK UK PM. Look at the stats - by 1997 the Tories didn't have a single seat outside England, Brexit was a purely English phenomenon (Wales voted Leave because of the English retirees living there) and the other three UK nations are completely sidelined at Westminster, which is now England's parliament.
England fundamentally has no idea what it is or wants to be, which is why its Government is a sleazy, dysfuntional mess, like something out of Monty Python. Dean Acheson's words are truer now than when he spoke them in 1962: "Great Britain has lost an empire but not yet found a role". For ' Great Britain', read England; he was right then and is right now.
These goons are Oxford.
Heck that's sad
I don't know what Pandemic they were at, whilst the UK were having their tea parties, we also had one of the highest death rates. We had staff in bin bags and corruption of the centre, which they always deny.
They’re not talking about the government, they’re talking about people in general, not hard to understand.
I keep hearing you say that we shouldn’t be ashamed of being English, however, you are also mixing England with Great Britain. The reason why the other countries within Great Britain have national pride is the clear separation and not the belief that one is both. The reason Britain is great is the fact that all the different countries come together not just the one country
Britain is Great in the same way WW1 was The Great War
I agree, being from wales this is frustrating
@verraguid you're actually correct, but likely didn't realise you were.
'Great' in GB is a geographical term used since ancient times to differentiate Britain (the bigger one) from Ireland (the smaller one)
In the same sense, the 'Great' War was named as such because it was somewhat bigger than other similar wars.
At no point does anyone say anyone should be ashamed to be English.
@@tomjohnson9833 mansplaining
The constant conflation of England and Britain is infuriating.
I know what country I'm in - I dont need to be reminded with bunting every five minutes. Labour have started doing that with their branding now. Got to keep the jingoists on side eh? Sad. National identity is emergent - you cant engineer or prescribe it. National identity comes from a shared sense of belonging, so you cant have national identity in an unequal and divided society, however many flags you wave about. Using nationalist symbols and rhetoric to divide people destroys national identity. National identity is about collaborating and feeling like we're all on the same team, not creating in groups and out groups.
Labour is part of British identity, Labour using national symbols should be not only uncontroversial but normal - at the very least we need to deny the sole ownership of such symbols to the right wing and fascists.
Oli straight in with the important points at 2:25 is the reason i keep coming back to this channel for my political commentary
Some folk say Miilibands "Ed Stone" was destroyed.
I don't buy it. Time to wheel out England's Excalibur for the 2020s.
The myth lives on!
Thats one book I wont be buying
The very best of British in the COVID response. It was humble, it was gentle, and it stayed the fuck at home.
There is no question that Labour have a huge mess to clear up and need at least 2 terms to make any real headway. Starmer is precisely the man to do it; he has spent his life in public service. Do not believe the gas lighting by the right wing media (and let's be honest that is just about all we have today) that he is hugely unpopular, many people I have spoken to are pleased that he is not your typical charismatic politician,
Two Oxford profs ,one who didn't even live in the UK describes what. Soft Corbynism and minimal noise or conflict for change.
Tell me what is wrong with Britain without telling me what is wrong with Britain
English & British are the funniest, have the very best sense of humour & make best comedies in the world by a long way.
Have Love for each other together one and all
yes, well we have a lot of real-life material to use as inspiration, if you can't laugh about it what can you do?
These guys say populism is terrible when other people do it. But Keir Starmer is great because hes harnessing the power of the "ordinary" population and able to sit in a pub.
This is embarrassing.
Both sides play for the same team WeF.
Wtf do you expect, the UK has a big economy, of course it would take part on global economic forums as a way to court foreign investors
It would help if politicians said the word “England” instead of Britain
I have mote affiliation to my country and region than I do to my country. An Example I feel more in common to the Scots than I do to people down south. Coming across Southerns has always felt like meeting foreigners.
I can see the sense in what you're saying and kind of agree, but you put it in a pissed up way. "Coming across Southerns(!)" sounds like a great album title, though.
You should let Scotland leave we want no part of that crap!!
You dropped Imagined Communities without pointing out that the idea comes from Benedict Anderson in the 1980s - not everyone will know where that idea comes from so it’s important to point out the reference.
An English Parliament should sort it all out
I was born in England and hold a British passport. I don't class myself as either. I just see myself as simply another person in the world. As far as I'm concerned borders, nationalities, race, religion, etc, are just meaningless manmade labels.
fellow citizen of the world here, maybe we should do something about all this nonsense going on. after all there are more of us
Yep. I'm an Earthling too! 👋🏼
You're so cool and interesting
If you hate this country so much and you consider yourself a person of the world you should leave it as soon as possible.
What are you waiting for?
Leave this country NOW TRAITOR! 👉
In other words, you're middle class.
I am 'English' in the same manner I am 'CofE', both meaningless definitions in real life.
These two feel well intentioned, but their ideological assumptions get in the way of making any serious political prescriptions
Can guarantee you they are not well intentioned
FASCINATING conversation.
Truth is- this country desperately needs to discover the difference between patriotism (that's loving your country) and nationalism (that's thinking it's better than others) and embrace the former.
The flag, the history has been hijacked by people representing THE WORST of this country- xenophobic closeted racists who don't even know the history of this country and often speak the language that personally I would not call English.
But although loud- those people I don't believe are majority. When I decided to come here I didn't know much about England. But when 20 years later- DESPITE BREXIT!!!- I decided to stay... I did.
Is everything English brilliant? Of course not. Did England do things historically which were bad? Of course it did. Guess what. That is the case with pretty much every country. Loving your country does not mean denying its history. Or distorting it.
Loving your country means exactly that. Loving it. Warts and all. It doesn't need to be the best at everything. It needs to feel right. It needs to reflect its people's priorities and make them feel proud of what they represent as a group.
This country desperately needs to reclaim that feeling, after it's been run to the ground by people looking at profit only. By people who would do anythimg to get power- like dividing it. Take Brexit. Take immigration. Take this recent sick note culture speech. It's always about saying this or that group is bad. It takes this incredible feeling of fairness and uses it to divide.
Look around and start finding common ground. We are all proud of NHS, right? Of people who work on the front line. Seriously, during Covid you could see a display of what was best about England. Yes, also the worst came out- but it's quite funny how people displaying the worst are also exactly the same that keep dividing the society.
When this country is united, it becomes extremely powerful. Don't let people who use its incredible sense of fairness to enrich themselves, cause this is what's happening. The unfair ones keep shouting from rooftops about this or that group being unfair- while they steal every last penny there is left.
I am not a leftie. I don't advocate socialism.
But don't let a minority to claim your identity while leaving you without one. This is a beautiful country. If only weather wasn't that shit, dammit ;) Embrace it. Be proud of it. And let others do their thing. Without boosterism and fake pride. But with genuine love.
Apart from the
Football
Cricket
Rugby
and the land
There is no
England
And neither exists you, user - bunch of characters
I doubt it, his leadership style is sit on the fence quietly and see which way the wind blows.... this is not the bold visionary that will change or reclaim anything...
Starmer is too keen to win in England that he doesn't care about rUK, it's mindblowing that anyone outwith England supports him.
Starmer needs scotland and welsh MPs to rule England
Sorry but, if you were a lecturer, ran a failed campaign and then worked in think tanks... clearly you are not a winner, and have never worked anywhere where you were required to be correct. Why should i listen to you?
Have you ever run a political campaign, worked as an educator, or been part of an analytical organisation? No? Clearly you are a loser and I shouldn’t listen to you
England deserves to gets borders AND parliament back, it's their sovereign right... Apparently 🏴
It’s an idea
Too late
Not when one is a CIA collaborant and has more allegiance to a foreign power/organisation rather than their own morals and allegiance to a country from whence they were born.
Eh? Oh, and it's 'collaborator'.
Drinking the Starmer-aid?
He's a duplicitous liar
Let me guess, you're white middle aged middle England angry and a farage fan
How so?
English, hm; wholesome laws, humble, quiet, effective, equal, infrastructure for all that works, decent, well paid jobs that provide a comfortable living, fair taxation, public servants who serve, public office holders who are honourable. Why not start with that.
No.
Starmer turned up at a time when the Conservatives have spontaneously combusted. He leads a faction that has crushed alternative views in the Labour party. Fine. He's doing what he needs to under the current circumstances to take power. But lying to get power, being in the right place at the right time and crushing the democracy in a political party because your faction had gained control are not obvious signs of a successful progressive politician. They are signs of a good dictator (not that I'm saying that is what Starmer is) I'm just describing what I see.
What a load of absolute rubbish
@@bereal6590 Thanks for the clarification :D I'm persuaded. Starmer is going to save us. Hooray.
@@kr050 I don't care what he does for you, I care about Britain.
@@bereal6590 Me too buddy.
spot on, dude when he said Starmer ain't a traditional politician, my first thought was why does he remind me of Stalin so much then?
literally came into power on the back of a leftist movement and then used party mechanisms to purge all the leftists from his party, all his crime and punishment and nationalistic bullshit is straight outta the standard authoritarian playbook.
Keir Starmer's appeal? He has only been successful so far by making promises that he hasn't kept and not being in the Conservative party.
Starmer is a dirty red Tory. No.
Why doesn't he stand as a conservative then?
@@pip1723because this way the Conservatives have covered both parties so there is no option for an alternative.
@@pip1723Because the Tories dodgy deals got brought to light on mass.
So dodgy Labour smeared those that actually had integrity and then Labour full on sleazed out. Now they are going to make it out like it's the dodgy Tory policies they've adopted why they will win. You like NHS privatisation? Wes Streeting does.
stating immigration as an absolute necessity to have our country function correctly opens more questions than you think why ?
because the native population have limits on government incentive ie tax benefits or all of the above to have more children
there by we need more people overwhelmed by the underwhelming income they could in an economy designed to refill the lower end of labour to perpetuate wage stagnation throughout the entirety of our economy. once they understand they'll never own a home be limited to the number of children they have which will be changed as soon as we have a larger voice for the call for polygamy from an incoming migrant majority an considering it was over 750000 last year alone shouldn't be to far off
Who is calling for polygamy?!
Thunktank twunts...
Triggered. They speak of an ideal and Britain that doesnt and wont exist. Its a shame they dont see their own biases
Interesting conversation but these chaps say 'grandiose' far too often - thoroughly irritating after the first five deployments of the term.
It was a bad idea to watch the "quiet bat people" episode of TTOI before watching this interview, because the plans they're outlining have quite big QBP energy
Not inherently a bad idea but impossible to express in a way that doesn't come across awkwardly, especially in the face of shiny but useless radicalism
What a load of starmer propaganda.
42:25 yes. Until black players miss a penalty.
These guys are not living in reality.
I think it’s possible to have a sensible centrist politics without it being totally managerial, technocratic, and uninspiring.
Very true, but people you’ll always have the same doomerist, ideologue mardarses crying no matter what
Found them pretty unconvincing unfortunately. Very politics of vibes, and civility politics.
Too much England unsubscribe. I like Ollie but as a Welshman this channel keeps posting things as British but they only focus in england
“Why don’t they talk about ussss 😢”
....as for Starmer is sensible he doesn't shout. The bloke said he is going to transform Britain without any debt.. over to you Mork and Mindy
Oli forgot who he was sitting with in the first 5mins, Ed and Ava aren't on set, calm down lad!
Make Britain boring again.
Thank you for framing it like this. And not Kier Starmer identifies with racists by wearing flag and three lions.
Wow, the future of britain right here, were fukd.
@@Ant-dx8yt Probably his Y-fronts are made from a union flag. Patriotic? My arse!
@@blue47er A lot of Labour supporters believe the flag of St George and perhaps even the Union flag are something akin to the confederate flag in the US.
I don’t believe that. What do you think the flag of St George should stand for?
UK identity thank you. We are a United Kingdom 🇬🇧
Isn't that point a snake eating its tail? The strength of the UK is that it's a combination of different nationalities, it's not its weakness - otherwise where's the value in us being "united" at all
...until Irish reunification and Scottish independence... new flag anybody...? perhaps just a red cross with a dragon in the corner...
Labour do have a,plan and people need to read it first before judge,ent and veering to reform..
Genocide, genocide, and err, bit more genocide?
don't forget austerity, austerity, austerity with a side of nhs privatisation
These guys are losers
Tom’s book on Starmer is excellent.
Corbyn fan club will hate it.
Well done Tom 👏👏👏👏
Not another red Tory PR piece. 🤢
@@tomtom-gi9eo’ Red Tory piece’ from politics joes 😂😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
yup normal amount of smiley faces there bud really convincing everyone how unfazed u are
@@Kohanman don’t look at the polls
Like 50% of people despise Starmer. How's that for a poll you melt. @@nicksimmons7234
Theres NO race war in Wolverhampton… We rub along very nicely here. I dont get the hatred of West Bromwich Albion myself… Villa on the other hand I’m FULLY behind that 🤣🤣🤣
Quick answer - no, Keith won’t change anything because he might as well be a Tory. And we know what they are.
Kier can’t find his own British identity