Watchmaking - The bleak future of watch repair and restoration (16min)
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- I will discuss the difference between:
- Production
- Revision
- Repair
- Restoration
and the Skill/knowledge balance in horology.
Have a look behind the scenes of watchmaking.
Sit back, relax and have a stroopwafel.
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Live Watchmaking. Look through the eyes of a watchmaker and share the passion of Kalle Slaap from team Chronoglide, Vintage Watch repair specialists near Amsterdam.
@ChronoglideWatchmaking
I work with my dad in a watch shop, where we repair quite a few watches daily. My dad isn't formally trained, and as much as i wish i could attend the watchmaking courses, most of them are far too expensive, especially when you add in lodging and livelihood when moving to another country to study.
Im sure there are many others that have attended watchmaking schools, and though i agree with Kalle, money still runs the world. Perhaps someone might be able to give their experience on how they funded their watchmaking courses/careers to help struggling people such as myself move in the right direction? Cheers!
I'm a 40 year old software engineer attempting to self train, would love to go to night-school, or even do online(I can afford to buy whatever), but it just doesn't exist. I can't even find a self-learning syllabus of things to work on and what order.
Interestingly enough, this video strengthens an idea I've had in taking community college metal lathe courses at night.
@@joemaniaciMarshall from @WristwatchRevival sometimes mentions the course he took. I believe it was online videos, but I don’t quite remember off the top of my head.
@@joemaniaci Where are you?
BHI is very affordable (british horological institute)
you can do it remotely (maybe have to do a few exams in uk though)
As a hobbyist I find amazing online resources like yours Kalle and it makes it fun but I’d hate to need to make a living because it’s so in-depth to get it right on every aspect for repair. Parts are hard to find and tools are vast.. so good luck to all of you who want to make a career of this amazingly interesting and inspiring field.
yes seiko dont have parts, we have to pick it up from china, and you cant find all aprts.. for me its enought,, i think I will start to make aprts,, but a spring coil we cant make,, however we can find springs in europe,, the problem is we have to cut them so they can vibrate the correct time, all its a lot of time consuming,, so a watch repair can not be cheap,
and not everybody is avaiable to do pay for it. I think many watches will go to garbage can,, or dissaamble for some aprt and thrown away..
Making a career out of it means ceasing to be a hobbyist and actually going to school/apprenticeship.
Currently in the U.S. watch schools are now turning out “watch technicians” and no longer watch makers. In my humble opinion, this is an attempt by the big brands to create a stream of indentured employees as opposed to individuals who can go out and hang their own shingle. I am a self taught watchmaker with 40 years experience. I grew up extremely poor and have wanted for nothing since entering this profession. You can do this until either you or circumstances determine your end date and you can go into business anywhere in the world. Tell me another industry aside from the “oldest profession” that you can do this. Not to mention that watchmaking doesn’t come with the hazards of the aforementioned! Great video. Thank you.
I'm 25 now. The skills and knowledge in horology always fascinate me along the journey. Kalle speaks the truth, in modern days the knowledge is more then abundant and skiils never catch up.
I really dream to get invloved in the life style mentioned. Kalle's streams help a lot and make me more determined. I'm quitting the job right now and wanting to start the advanture in watchmaking real soon.
Wish me luck😁
Have a fantastic career, jealous as I am way to old now. Time has passed me by and this was one career I never thought of until the past few years. You go for it
Good Luck Mate.....You won't have a shortage of work.
Good for you and good luck! I started Too late!
@@davidcrandall4958what age did you start at
I would love to make a career out of watchmaking - and I have an incredible watchmaker ( S Michlmayr & Co ) only a 2 minute drive from home. But to get a job there or almost anywhere I would need to give up my job move 6 hour drive away for a 3 year course to get my wostep and somehow support a family on no income. Its impossible for people to start watching after they are about 20 years old because theres no actual ways into the business.
I understand your concern and i echo it.
I spent 17 years as a gunsmith ( making screws both SAE and metric) as well as repair. My restorations were almost non existent however my repairs and enhancements were plentiful. All things end so for the last 10 years ive learned horology the same way i learned firearms. Read, study, observe, listen and do.
I am not a watch restorer by any means but i can repair to my satisfaction and that of my limited client base.
My point is that like any other profession there are levels of expertise and finding the correct craftsperson who is competent is more of a task today than ever before.
Just because you can buy the screwdrivers dosent mean you know how to use them are words of wisdom i choose to live by.
Thank you Kalle for sharing your expertise and passion for horology with us as you are truly an inspiring master !
parts are disapearing from market and people interest for watches too..some bitches like seiko dont produce parts... they could hask some parts to orient factory and then sell it.. they behave like usa industryidiots.
Thanks to the Swiss monopolies, Swatch Group greed.
Modern economics dictates one repair the watches that cost a lot… you replace parts, or even replace a movement, rather than making screws to fix a Rolex (or Invicta.) It’s got to be worth a watchmaker’s time, and nobody is paying hundreds of dollars an hour to fix grandpas pocket watch or even the cool old Omega you found on eBay. The only way repairs are cost effective is if the watch only needs a cleaning which can be done in a few hours to acceptable standards… or the watch needs repairs but you have inexpensive parts in stock to get that done with a minimum of difficulty and time.
When a watch no longer has to be expensive, people are not going to pay hundreds for basic maintenance and thousands for restoration.
All I hear is: we charge too little for our services which makes the profession uninteresting.
If there’s money in a profession, there will be people who want to specialize, learn about it and hone their skills.
When a certain market has a large shortage of personnel, you can simply wait until people start running toward that profession. Sure there will be cowboys and “prutsers”, but there will also be craftsmen and women.
I'm 57 and as a watchmaker hobbyist, as corny as it sounds, I reminisce about what it was like in the 1950's when someone brought in a Rolex submariner for their two year service. At the time in many towns, you could find any watchmaker in any big city or even small town. Not so today of course. I'm in Illinois and Most are in or near Chicago today. Have an old mechanical you found and want it serviced but live in say Pontiac, IL? You are either making a long drive north or shipping it. When my father passed away in 2011, I came across a few old phone books from the early 70's and was shocked at how many watch repair shops were listed even in the small town I grew up in that are long gone. The Quarts revolution had much to do with that. Today, because of brands like Rolex's policy towards small independents, if a small town watch repair does exists, they will not take a Rolex in for service. interestingly, since social media helped mechanical watches become a cool collectable thing again against the grain of the trow away electronic apple watch age around 2015, I've actually seen a few independents popping up. Just wonder how long this will all last.
Not long, I’m afraid. All the major watch brands have clubbed together and are restricting before wholly suppressing the availability of replacement parts to their own accredited repairers who charge premium prices. My watchmaker (in the UK) has retired early for that reason. I fear for the future of watch collecting, only the wealthy will be able to join.
Independent is not allowed to purchase spares for certains swiss makes which is ruining their business and of courae $100 watch what needa $200 repair will be abandoned
I recall up until the 1980s most watch dealers / jewellers had a watchmaker on site. By the late 80s most had disappeared.
Do you have apprentices in your workshop?
I'm brand new to the profession. I appreciate your input. The world of horology is changing quickly. Love your videos. Learning a lot!❤❤
I'm surprised that you did not mention the increasingly common practice of watch manufacturers refusing to sell parts- in some cases even to their own authorized dealers. It's completely unreasonable to expect average humans to pay for someone to make screws, staffs, and wheels by hand when they can just purchase a factory made piece for a mere fraction of the price. I don't expect an auto mechanic to manufacture parts- they simply replace them. Yes, this does take art and craft out of the equation. However, it seems to me that when you have even mid to lower tier brands like Oris refuse to sell you a crown and tube- there is the true problem.
Sounds like right to repair
I'm an amateur. Though I have a fair amount of technical knowledge, I do lack skill. I love vintage watches. I have a few that need repairs. I haven't attempted any repairs on my Vintage Swiss and American watches. Instead, I have chosen to develop my Demonstrated Skills by servicing and repairing inexpensive Chinese movements.
Sadly, the people of today want quick money and lots of it without effort. As a hobbyist watch repairer and one day be able to make the bits and pieces to keep watches out there! My disadvantage is time ( over 50. 😂😂), but enthusiasm I have bags of. But the few watch making schools out there know there isn’t many out there, there fees are out of the reach of most people’s wallets. I will do what I can do to achieve my wants in regards to horology, machines and tools, knowledge. But is it a dying profession with the throw away society we live in now.
Are you starting with apprenticeships to give 'youngsters' a change Kalle? There are no real watchmakerschools in the netherlands anymore as far as i know. The one in Hoorn was closed in the 70ties. The transistion from one skill/profession to another takes years. You are right that it could be a lost art/profession.
I think there are a few issues, mostly caused by the Swiss watch companies. They want watchmakers to just repair by replacing. The watchmaker schools have pandered to that. Restrictions on parts to independent watchmakers. The profession of watchmaking has been dumbed down deliberately by the industry itself, I.e. the manufacturers. The future of watchmaking is as much the hobbyist as the independent, the independent will not be able to compete long term.
The addition to that is they are wanting to do it in-house, only so many watchmakers in Switzerland. That’s why the service/repair times are so high now, no independent to take up the slack.
Is it the same for Japanese and US companies? How might that look for those who service only these types?
@@tylerfukuda Excluding something like a Grand Seiko, anything from Orient or Seiko will normally have an off the shelf version parts can be stripped from
I Agree but I don't think Internet trained non professionals are the answer!
It's same with nearly every technical stuff, no repairs just replace
I see that either Russuia or Netherlands and I sure all other countries have the same basic problem of loosing high qulity specialists in differenr branches, and it is very pity!
I think it is pretty much valid for every "craft" and art. All those guitar/violin/bass/drums/sax virtuosos, spend literally YEARS on improving their skills and implementing them on daily play. Same goes for a watchmaker and a surgeon and hairdresser. Practice makes a master. The issue with watchmaking however is that there is less and less people interested in developing such skill, though it can be very profitable. But when the big producers simply decide that their watch models have short "life span" (because they have to produce and sell new ones in order to satisfy THE INVESTORS) it becomes less and less desired skill. Of course it won't die in 10 years, but in 100? Who knows?
While not necessarily perfectly equivalent to having it made on the original machinery, I’m hopeful (possibly very naively) that -at least regarding the availability of spare parts- 3D scanning, AI and 3D printing will help fill in some of the gaps!
I have news , the future (or present) of almost any repairs shows more and more signs of being bleak! This is not unlike shoes. Once upon a time all shoes were reparable and repaired, Same things with shirts . My father bought (I have had them too) shirts with came with two collars extra and 3 sets of cuffs extra, BECAUSE it was possible and convenient to repair a quality item. The cost of revising and repairing anything is rising to the pint that only the top segment sooner or later will be convenient to repair. I have seen this happening in saxophones where, now, the lower segment is no longer revised because a professional revision costs as much as the saxophone is worth with a revision! Not only many repairmen or women don't accept anymore part repairs because they only take rebuilds. Is this going to happen to watches too? Probably
Sorry I missed the live stream. It's all very true. I left it too late and only started after I retired. At 73, I enjoy the small set of skills I have but should have started sooner! Thanks for the offer Kalle, but I think your courses are now beyond me. My suggestion is if you can, commit and enjoy. Success to all who can achieve it. Best of luck to all Chronoglide Streamers...
Ah yes, this applies to just about every industry. So many armchair experts that know how it should be done but cant physically do it even with all the necessary tools in front of them.
Then the rare person who can actually do it is 'too expensive'...
Makes me sick. Bottom line, if you cant appreciate skill and craftmanship, stay out of the kitchen.
But that requires explaining the negative aspects of a disposable culture. For me that has to do with helping the environment and respecting the things you already own. Simply repairing for its own sake makes no sense either.
I'm curious. Where did you work/apprentice before starting your workshop?
This might sound harsh but watches are consumer goods to which 2 year warranty (EU) is applicable. In other regions it's just 1 year. Some brands might give 5 or even 10 year warranty but that's it. Why would they not want to buy you a new watch after a while? I get the economics. Also ppl don't buy a Rolex because they want a watch, they buy it because it's a status symbol (also applies to some Omega and AP etc. models). Watches are obsolete luxury products (I own 20 watches lol).
Why are my posts being Deleted? Please show all my posts! Thank You!
Even Rolex don't support old watches that need parts. All made by machines. Reflections of throw away and replace society. Very different 60 years ago
Here in the States it should be pitched like other trade schools are. How many young people are veen aware of mechanical (especially) watches these days? Perhaps the schools that do exist are to some extent or other to blame for this. Also women with their ability to handle small parts and their patience should be made aware of it. And it can be a good living, especially if you combine it within a retail shop such as a gift store, watch seller, jewelry business, etc. If I were twenty+ years younger. . . . . .
Unless an old fancy french chatol has some historic value to it it is basically without value taken into consideration the amount of time and craftmanship that went into making it.. People will actually pay more for a ‘flying’ shelf made of a simple melamin board with a concealed wall bracket.. Why? Because they ate influenced by trend magazines etc. in what to go for. What is hot and what is not.
Same thing can be said about the watch industry! Most of the customers buying a Patek Philippe watch wouldn’t even know what is more and what is less demanding operations in finishing the movement the that particular standard! And let me tell you straight away, that that standard is unfortunately lowering every day! Trend setters in the watch industy have convinced costumers that it is more impressive that an Ebauche is developed and produced ‘Inhouse’ as to the level of umcompromised finish the finished movement used to have! Rolex is one of the main reasons for this sad development to say it blunt out! The develop say a caliber 3135 and spit out a million of that caliber every single year! No it has no noteworthy finish to it as you can imagine! But it is branded as something exceptional because it is made Inhouse.. If the caliber is produced for lets say 30 years, than there wil roughly be 30 million caliber 3135 produced in its lifespan. Patek Philippe produces only a fraction of that per year, and the lifespan of each caliber is considerably shorter as well. Lets for arguments sake say they produced 20.000 of caliber 8-85 in its total lifespan, and 1.000 a year. The development costs are equal to the Rolex caliber 3135, but those costs are to be divided into the costs of producing each movement. Obviously and without getting much in return the customer will have to cover the development cost from one out of a thousand compared to one out of a million.. If every Patek Philippe caliber Ebauche would have to be developed and produced Inhouse and produced in small numbers for a relatively short production run then Patek Philippe would have to cut expences somewhere else to even make it sell-able.. AND THEY DO! That is the sad part and reality! Compare a movement produced in the 60ies and before to a relatively new caliber and you will notice fewer individual bridges, fewer inner corners on the fewer bridges to deliberately avoid the time consuming part of applying anglage to an inner corner. If the costumer isn’t aware of the more time consuming task let alone to more craftmanship required to manually remove acces material on an inner corner where no router bit gets to (hence they are a rotating router bit) then why even bother??? People will gladly pay more feeling reassured that the caliber is produced inhouse, because that is what to go for according to watch trend influencers!
If it was made by someone someone can fix it. If you can't fix it it's because you don't want to fix it or you do not have the skills or equipment. Equipment can be bought or made and skills can learned. I hate this "it can't be fixed".
The directions are very different. The western world is so expensive that for an old grandfathers clock you have to pay actually for the repair hours fee, not the watch itself. That is why you can find old clocks at fairs or flea markets at a ridiculous price. Take it to Eastern Europe and repair it for almost nothing , yet. On the other hand, this business is discouraged by the steep up prices. The Asians are still with many handy men and coming from back without competition. Their handcraft is still appreciated . In western countries we are not seeing the money and in other parts of the world they are trading in barter apples for potatoes. Put them together. Impossible.
Love the videos! I started tinkering with watches last year after trying to find someone to service my 10 year old Invicta and put a new battery in it. After talking to several people that said just throw it out and buy a new one they are cheap. I started my higher education as an engineer so I thought OK lets watch some videos and learn how to do it. Well after A LOT of videos and learning I did it with some cheap tools. I loved it so much I am now in debt to the hobby several thousand dollars. Looks like the next purchase will be a lathe as soon as i can find a good deal on ebay. After that I am looking hard at the British Horological distance learning course. I am currently 43 and have 8 more years as a Paramedic until I can take my retirement. Plan is to take the next 8 years perfecting my skill and learning everything i can absorb before attempting it as an after retirement profession. I would love to see the assembly and lubrication along with your thoughts on the correct lubrication for different movements and theory behind it.
It's pretty much the same in most trades. I used to be a refrigeration technician, recently changed to building automation. In both there's serious shortages all over the developed and even in some of the developing world. The only positive is that this means secure employment and decent salary for the like of us, as you mention.
I think you are right Kalle. I study at the national danish watchmaking school, spent about 10 hours a day doing that, and then another 4 hours when i get home. Becourse watchmaking is craftmansship, and like all other craftmansship it take millions of hours to be good at it.
I have been a carpender for 25 years and I´m stil not a master at that craft. I as a person learn by doing, it seems to be the best way of doing it. So i just keep going.
Love your channel, and keep going champ..
there is no restauration for dials so after a while peopel send it to the garbage can,, watchmakers forget about this..unless someone near you do it well and affordable..
just learned that my seiko bellmatic from the early 70s is going to cost $1300 to fix. This video makes me even more depressed
One question that always stumped myself and my wife over the years. How do you start an apprenticeship when everyone is only looking for skilled workers? For me it was machinist, her electrical work.
I am retired and live in Panama. There are several watch shops near where I live. I would not drop off my luxury watch to them. I would not let them touch my luxury watch. They do things the third world way. They have no tools. They do not use finger cots. They do everything the shade tree way. Mostly you would have them change out a bracelet or change a battery. I only buy watches with cheap Chinese movements in them. When they wear out I either replace the watch or replace the movement myself. Only the wealthy can afford a luxury watch. A luxury watch needs special care and attention that is expensive. Not many people in this world can afford one. That being said, depending on where you live, there will always be a need for watchmakers.
Please could you give me some advice. I have twisted the arm of a very good clock maker to show me how to use the lathe as I inherited a metal working lathe. My question is, are the skills interchangeable but on a smaller scale?
In the video you were talking about screws, if I learn to make a good screw, can I transfer that skill to a watch screw?
I am self learning clock and watch making, same excuse I have no money.....I have a wife🤭. But I would like to make this into something I can use to make a living.
By the way Mr Kale. I've won a bid on ebay & is receiving a Burgmeister Model Fremont 231-122. As the so called company that's based in Stuttgart claim that it has Citizen automatic movement that's assembled in china & the body is made in Germany. 😂Nevertheless! And the other Automatic that I'm expecting from Ali Express China is Cadisen automatic watch with 9015 miyota movement in it.
My question is If something malfunction. Do you also provide services for these chopsticks brands? If so.. Then I'll be very much interested to get them serviced by you & your team. Because you're a honest human & a experienced mechanic.
Who's not chasing profits around like other's in this field.
But enjoy his profession..
A reply will be much appreciated.
If you're not Grumpy.😊
I don't assume that you are very frequently in a grumpy mood.
I assume that you must have seen the people in Hamburg during the winter time.
Now they get grumpy & for real. Grausam Wetter & scheiße Klima according to them.
With friendly greetings from Bergedorf, lohbrügge
Roy
How can a watch be "unrepairable" if it was made in the first place!
I have a cart of tools from Esslinger and e bay locked and loaded. I have been following you and have started another course and have learned Sooo much. I hope to one day make a living in this hobby. My biggest worry is the parts embargo honestly. It’s tough at my age with bills and responsibilities to start an apprenticeship but it’s not impossible. I live in Upstate Newyork, not exactly a whatch making Mecca but I know that this is what I want do with my life. I’m sick of spending my days doing something I hate. I hope I’m not being foolish or dreamy but either way I’m giving it a shot
Possibly diversify your skills too with adding gemology , jeweler skills.
Excellent best wishes and dreams for your new dreams.
The best motivation! The best of luck, hang in there and you'll have a bright future for sure!
I really think this is a far too pessimistic view of things. Seems like our friend here was in a bad mood for some reason and decided to go on a rant. Us older folk often like to bemoan the death of the good old days, when in reality those days were not actually that good but rather we were better looking and our knees didn't hurt.......
Also, how exactly can some skill or product be saved if society simply does not want to save it? With the advent of the cell phone most people don't even need to own a watch ffs.... Loads of people just like them as fashion accessories. The thing doesn't even need to work because they only look at it to admire it.
Dear grumpy old Man 😂
As sad as it is, I assume You are right.
Best Regards from an other grumpy Oldi. 😅
Apprentices can't work for free either. Most people are self taught and hobbyists.
Everyone on the Internet, especialy the ones who call themselves watchmakers because they listened to Internet tutotials should listen to you! They wont listen to me!
people start to produce parts or adapt them, (with resonable prices) or watches vintg industry will desaaper..
I make high end tobacco pipes for a living and we face a bit of the same issue, but myself and a handful of other skilled carvers have dedicated a portion of our time to freely train new pipe carves. It could easily be a dying art but I am hopeful. One of the last real watch makers in the state of Montana was in my town and he passed away a few months ago. So bummed for his family but I’m selfishly thinking what about all that lost knowledge!
I would only disagree on one thing, that it comers down to people being willing to do this plenty of people would be willing to do this but it has become inaccessible due to there ages.
Very few young peoiple come out of school interested in horology to take up apprenticeships or persue formal education in horology or similar micro mechanical fields these tend to be things people get interested in later in life now, at that point you cant afford to be come an apprentice ue to the lack of wages especilly if you have a family and barrier to entry equipment and space wise is astronomical yes you can get the kit you need used but its still not cheap and you need somewhere to put it plus the cost of materials to practice on.
I myself am only 30 but with a mortgage and a baby i cannot afford the pay cut as we would lose our home but also despite having a well paid job i cannot afford enough space to store and use all these tools and materials let alone the funds to buy them to self learn as such i am capped at assemble and basic servicing as that doesnt require a dedicated area and the amount of physical space required for the tools is relatively minimal and this is the same for everyone else that i know that interested in this.
As a retired service engineer for large companies service and repairs were a necessary evil and not where the money is. Sales are what counts.
Watches mechanical will always exist and need servicing, cheers.
For myself, as a hobbyist, the difficult bit is affording everything useful or necessary. Fortunately, hand-eye coordination is my thing, though doing new stuff can be nerve-racking..
It actually seems like loads of people are starting off trying to do some repairs, and certain equipment seems quite a bit more prominent and valuable now than it did when I first started, some years ago.. one problem is that some specialist repair tools are no longer made - like tool manufacturers presumably expect repairers to use a specific cutter rather than one of the topping tools. Stuff like currently continued sizes of jewels tells you what you're expected to be repairing, short of making them from scratch.
I don't think many of the swiss are concerned much, as long as the cheapest high profits are obtained.
I just got my first two books to start with. Any recommendations for fixing mins +\- loss or fast?
Hope this is helpful: Timing and Adjustment mechanical watch movement - Running fast or slow
ruclips.net/video/CJxS-gJCcuE/видео.html
Craftsmanship is a legitimate word by the way.
Will artificial intelligence be the next watch repairers?
Let’s look at the glass half full. The fewer who can, the rarer the skills, the greater value. The future is looking excellent. 😊
That's not a positive scenario for the hobby.
Is watch making a good career path in this day and age?
Have you heard of prescot watchmakers
I would love to get into watchmaking but when I was really interested it seemed WOSTEP was too pricey for me. Now it’s a bit better as I’m earning more and can find the course but I’m close to 40 and it feels late.
Between WOSTEP and BHI in the UK, are there suggestions for good schools?
It's not too late! I didn't get serious about watchmaking until my late 30's and I believe it's the same for Kalle 😁
Now this is just me I had all the tools do watches like you do. You would be in my will and everything would go to a colleague or student on the condition that is passed down to another colleague or students and never sold. Onto a group of people never to be sold say three or four people one dies off someone will be wrong in something along those lines to think about
The root of the problem you discussed in this video is a lack of schools who can educate and produce future watchmakers. I wanted to do this as my 2nd career, but unwilling to move either out of state or out of the U.S. to gain the education which would be too costly.
As a watch collector I more than understand what you mean! Just to be able to find the proper watch smith for certain jobs is crazily hard. Recently had to have a 8 day power reserve airplane watch, after a lengthy search which gave perfect results. The broken part was due to: when setting time & pushing back the crown in, one has to fiddle a bit for parts to mesh properly, if not you break parts, now this was common knowledge back then (1950-1980) but just knowing the mesh part has been forgotten. We can easily imagine the complexity of certain chronographs (ex.: eta 7750) with quick day/date fonction being forgotten etc. Your watchsmiths are your allies in this crazy complex puzzle 👍❤️👌
if prices are reaseobable other wise people wills ell the daamged "garbage" and will forget horoly.
Lots of nice AliExpress watches for $200.
There is good and there is bad with this. The amount of information is there and yes, the difference in quality of that information is huge. Still I feel that the interest for watches and watchmaking is still on the up, so many people will now try to repair a watch, probably many more than was the case just two decades ago. Myself I took a watch apart for the first time about ten years ago. Now I am confident enough to service a movement, well unless it’s a complicated one. Of course to repair something is completely different, I have successfully repaired a couple of hairsprings, again I have destroyed many more! The amount of tools I have accumulated is quit overwhelming. My intention is to keep going to learn more and more, but to get to the point that I can replace a jewel, to make any kind of parts well that is something I will never do. I am 57 and I do this as a hobby. My son is 14 and he has already started to work on watches too, if he wants to and there can be found opportunities I will encourage him to make a profession of it, of course again that depends on what other things he might get interested in.
I just bought a Zodiac Triple date moon phase and thinking of having it restored but told the value will be cut in half.
What do you recommend ?
Interesting, if a restoration is done the right way, it will increase the value. Make sure you discuss your wishes and expectations with your watchmaker.
Factories couldn’t or wouldn’t?
A comment from England. This vid puts the watchmakers' side of the story, and Kalle is obviously correct. There is also the other side of the story - that of the watch owners.
I recently had occasion to have two watches serviced. The first was/is a 2001 Explorer 2. It is worth about £9/10,000 for which I paid £1,400 in new condition in 2002. I paid £560 to a top-rated watchmaking company for the service (about 50% less than servicing at Rolex). The watch now appears to be new, and is running beautifully, seemingly to the second. That expenditure was logical in relationship to the value.
The second watch I've had from new in 1973, a Seiko Jumbo chronograph. Its value is about £150. The (more local) quote for servicing was £250 plus parts, so with a much-needed new crystal probably £300. I didn't bother, and just put the watch back in the cabinet.
Millions of good but inexpensive mechanical watches are now being sold. The soon-to-come reality is that servicing costs will far outweigh the residual value of many of those lower-end watches, and they will be relegated to dusty drawers. It will be cheaper to buy new than service. For many, it will be cheaper to swap-out the stock (ETA, Selita?) movement than to repair. This reality doesn't seem to dawn on the buyers of Chinese clones that will cost more to service than their original price.
In-between will fall better-end but non-prestige watches from the likes of Longines, but there will come a time, even for those pieces, when hourly skilled labour rates exceed what is sensible expenditure on watches with marginal residual value.
Buyers and the trade must think in the longer term.
I'm also in the UK, and it's about getting a bit creative with it. I have an Orient Esteem I brought new in 2018 I've just had serviced, which uses a very basic Orient/Epsom calibre. I had it serviced in China for £14 for the service and £9 for a crystal replacement and upgrade to sapphire crystal. I didn't need to post it as I had someone out there, but postage would be around £10 each way, so its still very very cheap. Similarly, some guy in Moldova offered to do the service for £50.
The reality of a cheap chinese clones being cheaper to replace than to service absolutely does occur to buyers. In many cases, the build quality of the rest of the watch is so good that, for me, having a good, reliable movement I can replace myself is a selling point. But nobody is fooling themselves that a $200 San Martin is an investment.
I'd rather have a good quality, decent looking, running watch than to hunt for someone at whom to throw gobs of cash because he has the skills to oil my investment.
@@marcustulliuscicero9140 Serviced in China? If ever a statement sent shivers down my spine it's that one.
Your comment is somehow blurred. From the beginning, you have to know this. If you buy or get a watch from heart, money doesn't matter. Really don't! If you buy like many of Brit watch investors, you just put the watch in the safe and wait for better times to make a profit. The egoistic way to buy watches and take away a good watch from a potential watch enthusiast. I have a Seiko 5 which I wore 17 years all my childhood . Now if it comes to service I ask how much and get goin' no problem the price . It is an emotional thing. If you don't understand this then you are in the wrong league, my friend.
I can understand the sentiment. I have always been fascinated with horology as a whole, but never had the means until now. I just had my 50th birthday, and I am finally diving into watchmaking. I truly wish that I could have done it 25 years ago!
What a very interesting and encouraging video. I say encouraging because it’s constructive criticism. I pray that you will be heard by those that need to hear you.
Every skilled trade/craft has this issue.
Sometimes can't repair means care not!
I came in here expecting discouragement. I ended up very much encouraged. Thanks for your wisdom!
market work in other way, you amke stupid prices for "garbage" or old stuff p+eople will not buy it,, thast how market work.
you take 30 to fix my watch i want it, you take 300, i pass, throw it away keep it in a box or jsut sell for cheap.--
@@anteneupitratrue!
Thank you for mentioning seven year Apprenticeship and Ten to fifteen years training!
Thanks Karl, its right to be concerned with the future. Its up to the current generation to to invest in the future in terms of providing apprenticeships and training to ensure the craft is not lost to the sales and marketing department.
I'd have to agree with you, I'm afraid. I'm not a watchmaker, I just build mechanical watches by buying movements and parts but I see an end to many mechanical watches. Between quartz movements and digital watches, mechanicals are going the way of horse drawn carriages. The very wealthy will always buy Rolex, AP, Omega, etc. that will need maintenance and repairs but they will be few and far between.
What!!!? Say it ain’t so. I’m just starting out. Hopefully this is clickbait😊
I too am in my second year of repair and restoration to resell
I’m a Electrical engineer nearly 40 years in the making. I’m also a Guitarist of 41+ years. The lack of attention from the average youth of today is outstanding. No focus or patience. Instant gratification is the new skill of today’s generation. Apprentices don’t exist anymore.
Nice rant..
I have been teaching myself watch making the last two years built up, Lorch schmidt lathe with new base dividing head milling head , gear cutting tool , also made my own cutting tools for the lathe work, sticking to the 1700th and 1800th watch movements as for me the craftsmanship from them dates and the limited tools- light they is unreal, have brought a few pieces , have made balance staff with the pivot ends 0.11 mm. I have just finished making a verge pallet staff for a 1710 movement, been to the area where they made the fusee chains managed to find and meet a contact at a museum and view and handle all original tooling for making the fusee chains, I said has anyone requested to look at this stuff, he said "no one since the last person that used it back in 1950", have all photos of the tooling... the reason I do this ........because it's a wonderful journey, being able to keep these pieces going, from these masters mentally and physically, it's a joy 😊
I did the first stem removal of my life. Isn't it awesome? I really like your videos, they are very inspiring. Thank you! I also want to repair watches.
Nobody is born a watchmaker, you took the first step, how cool is that!! 👏👏🥳
I disagree on the future of watchmaking in terms of the ability to raise prices in the future. I think watchmaking will split into two fields, craftsman style watchmaking for rare vintage pieces, and routine servicing of modern and standardised movements. I had to service my Orient which has sentimental value and I found some guy in China to do it for £14 (or some guy in Moldova for £50). Went with the guy from China as I knew someone going there anyway so postage costs were only one way. Anything with an ETA/Seiko/Epsom movement can very easily be handled in that way imho.
You have to admit you have a beautiful shop and the attitude and perspective to create a quality restoration workshop. You have the old craftsman mindset. Something I find dig\fficult to find in America.
From one watchmaker to another, this was very refreshing video! Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge and thoughts on the current state of watchmaking. From your own personal experience, what would be best way to recruit/entice apprentices into the trade?
you know things are getting wortst and worst many people dont spend more money on it cause aprts are stupidily expensive
the books kalle... The books... I'm eagerly wanting to be a watchmaker...but like you say, if one wants to be totally a watchmaker, then he cannot be seperated from books... Because,the skill we can hone, but without books...? 😓
Great talk 🙂 this adds to the magic of watches for me. You make sure you restore an old watch just the way it was made originally and I, the wearer wont ever see that part under the microscope. But both me and you know it matters. I am currently reading G. Daniels book and it is facinating.
Fully understand the big problems of today’s horology there is two categories maker and technician I was in the profession for twelve yrs moved out when the quartz came out this was the coffin in the nail
I can appreciate a good rant. So, I could not agree more. That said RUclips is a knife that cuts both ways. for those who seek information and then apply it with their fingers it is an asset. However RUclips is also a magic trick that lets you think you know how to do something as long as you are not confronted with the inconvenience of heaving to do it.
craft can not be learned by watching, it can only be accomplished by doing. Ironicly watching is the first step. Hats off to you for trying to thread the needle.
Tool related jobs of all kinds in the west are in trouble. Feminist movement being pushed has made it so 80% of women are chasing the top 5-15% of men, and hard work to support a family isn't relevant to so many young men. This as boomers have mostly retired out and multiple generations have been lied to that only white collar jobs are valuable.
I'm a car mechanic turned mechatronics specialist. When I started out I was barely able to afford food because the boomers were holding on to the high paying jobs including in the automotive sector. I'm pretty okay with the idea that luxury watch users will have little choice but to do their own maintenance in the future, and that fabrication services requiring high end machining might be as expensive as seeing a surgeon. It's almost like things are finding a healthy balance.
I really want to learn, I've watch amazing stuff like people making .9mm balance staff I want to do it myself, but to learn that, or to learn any skill you need access to tools, to sources even to teachers, and even the last two can somewhat be replaced with online resources access to tools is still pretty hard, like how much a lathe would cost?
So yeah, and in a country where national coin it's like 2¢ of a dollar it gets more expensive, more difficult to learn.
Must say I can’t agree more, I’m just 37 and obvious equally grumpy... Even if enthusiasts are willing to spend the time and effort training on skill the huge economic investment in quality tools make it hard. The screw example is good, a swiss precision lathe, quality Swiss tap/die set, polishing equipment and so one will easily set you back a few 1000 euros. So that will be an expensive screw if not using the same tools regularly in a business. Thanks again for this channel it’s very interesting to follow 👍🏻
Oh Kalle if I was 17 again I would have moved he’s an and earth to apprentice to you for 7 years easily. My father directed films and it was what I wanted to do. So I apprenticed for 6 years in production before I was allowed a union card to operate as the lowest grade on a film. That was also restricted for two years. The idea that you can learn a craft of any sort without doing this is a pipe dream. I know plenty of university graduates who have fumed at having to start as an apprentice regardless. The union lost its authority but nonetheless you’ll find all great film makers did the same apprenticeships
One thing to be noticed is that about every single watch making video is not really ever showing the crucial parts. Craftsman as always keep the secrets of the trade to them self.
For me, im more concerned about parts that cannot be made, such as new mainspring or jewels, will those be dried up too? As far as i know Generale Ressort the mainspring maker is not part of Swatch is it?
Kalle, I think this is a very important message, but not only for watchmaking. It's for every skill and trade. These days a person watches a youtube video and thinks they're an expert without ever having touched the thing. Just look at automotive repair. Most professional mechanics mostly know how to scan computer codes and replace parts the computer tells them to. If a car engine breaks internally, they either replace the whole engine or scrap the car, when every component inside that engine could be fabricated. Even in my primary field of media production, most "professionals" don't understand how to accurately calibrate colors in their camera because of the same problem - no more apprenticeships. However, I do believe it will turn around, and there will always be people with the interest in doing things properly. If each serious watchmaker would commit as you have to always having an apprentice, I believe the craft and skills could successfully be passed on.
Thanks Kalle, a fascinating opinion of the future of the craft. Some very good points made and noted. It's reassuring to hear, what I thought was actually a positive outlook. We're with you all the way Kalle!
dont see future,, as everything agiots are trying to rise the pries of everyuthing so,, people will leave horology.
Interesting time for sure and I bet it’s the same with almost any niche hobby that requires a high level of skill for whoever is working on the item. As for me I’ll stick with relatively affordable watches and hope that in 30 years someone can still service my SW500 Chronograph movement.
Yes many now think since they have watched a video they know how to do something. Knowledge and applied skill are very different things. Nothing against all the videos out there as they can spark interest but that must be followed by real hands on practice and skills development.
This is the case in many professions. People are not prepared to put in the time it takes to become good at something. Going to school makes you an apprentice and nothing else. Then comes the process of learning the trade. I myself am a happy amateur.... and completely happy with it. (Too old to do anything about it with anyway!) 😀
The machinery and tool floor and ceiling is so elevated, if the costs were more achievable it would very beneficial.
Thank you, sir for this fascinating and engaging presentation. I wish you and your colleagues great success. Greetings from Chile 🇨🇱.
To be honest... I would like to learn it the proper way and go to school for it but because I have PTSD going to Antwerpen is not an option for me so my only option is to teach it myself.