I don't understand how all the components to make an excellent game can be known going in ahead of time, and yet we still end up with multi-year long debacles like Throne and Liberty.
in general it does take a long time but 2 things make it worse. -seniority over experience. personal opinions of older gen gamers mixed with "ive been here longer" rather than doing whats best for current gen gamers. bad code done by the grunts that then turn it more n more complex to fix turning a idea of a system impossible due to breaking the code.
It tends to be "how many good features do we have to cut to actually deliver the game?" because budgets aren't infinite and the best mechanics are extremely difficult to create. For example, live combat in an MMO. Not only do you have to make a good live combat system but you have to make the game responsive enough, servers responsive enough, etc, to make it feel like it's live combat. There are also different types of good components. You can appeal to the action gamers, the strategy gamers, the nostalgic gamers, etc. Different kinds of mechanics, different gameplay focuses, different difficulties to create and different market sizes. Basically, a lot goes into game development and reducing it to just "why don't they just put good things in it and make it good?" kinda just shows that you don't really know what goes into making games. No offence intended, of course. It's kinda just like a webMD googler trying to tell a doctor that they should just "give me the cure instead of all these drugs that have side effects and might not help".
Because the component to make an excellent game and the components to make a profitable game are different. If Diablo Immortal has taught the industry anything it's that, Throne & Liberty will make money and that's all that gaming companies care about anymore.
MMOs have been a dead genre for a decade now. The last truly successful one to break out of launch hell and succeed was FFXIV (post-ARR), and arguably Lost Ark.
I liked BDO's action combat. I also like tab targeting. The thing for me is, Archeage set the bar for me for well-executed fun, fluid, combo-based tab target combat with so many possible builds and play styles, and that was nearly a decade ago. I'd take combat that was as good as Archeage, even if that's super outdated now...but not worse.
Archeage really did it well, didn't they... To be fair WoW is a good indicator that tab targeting can still be good, or you can have something like FFXIV where it's atrocious but it works really well in the environment it created. BDO is way too all over the place with the ridiculous amount of dashes every damn class has and I think Lost Ark has the perfect formula for what a great combat system should be. It doesn't matter if it's tab target, action or hybrid, it just has to be well made.
At this point I would be willing to sub 30-40$ a month for a legit AAA mmo with zero micro transactions or cosmetic shop. The great equalizer of online gaming has been mutilated beyond recognition.
I think I know the logic the developers used regarding combat: "Since everybody will be using our auto play function, there's no need to make so you can use skills while moving." That person must have earned a rise, btw.
I don't think so...I think it's more of an indicator of the development hell the game's been in for over a decade. That sort of fundamental system is likely to be one of the first things that are implemented...built in from almost the word go. A game's movement and combat is integral to the core of the game and probably has branches rooting out into all sorts of other aspects that aren't maybe immediately obvious. Then as years have passed they've probably piled stuff on top of it, system upon system etc, to such a point where altering a fundamental system like the combat etc would be such a monumental task that it's beyond the scope of the available budget, and thus are kind of stuck with it. That sort of combat, had it come out 10 years ago, (it was announced in 2011 as Lineage Eternal) it would just about have been out of date back then by about 5 years or so...although a lot of the big swathe of Chinese and Korean browser-based MMOs around at the time still had it...but lots of MMOs used to play that way (especially pre-WoW). Unfortunately for them, the players that remember that are much few in number, and a more recent modern audience will definitely find it bad in comparison to what they're used to today. It's like tank-controls in games...like the original Resident Evil or Tomb Raider games...modern players simply can't get along with it when they're used to modern control schemes. It's not that it's necessarily 'bad' per se...just that players are used to something different (and in general, better). It'll be a tough road for this game with that in mind.
Well... -They had an idea for the game. -They begun developing the game with that idea in mind. -They listened to some suit dressed guys about what is trending now. -They altered the project foundations to appease the suit dressed guys. -They launched an eldricht horror.
I'm not really sure what people expected with regard to T&L's quality. How many games that have been stuck in "development hell" have ever turned out to be good or at the very least considered as the "lowest common denominator" in terms of being passable enough.
@@Ziko577 Not just that, but game theory and mechanical design can change quite a lot if a game doesn't come out within 5 years of development time. Thus making it obsolete with regards to playability to a large portion of people before it's even fully released
@@fdgdfgdffdg345 Yep. Technology advances, design technique changes, etc. can cripple them and they'll be outdated on not only the hardware but even in that audience's eyes.
Tbh, I'm not off, because the tab target, that locks you in place, when you do a combat action. You could still design this into a very fun experience with lots of skills with mobillity, utillity, skill shots and other mechanics like orb walking, skill weaving, etc. But from what footage I've seen so far the mobility and skill shots are very sparce and after using a skill there seems to be a global CD going on very often. So no weaving or orb walking seems to be possible. Basically this does look like a game with a 20 year old combat system, that has not applied any of the many improvements and inventions in their very particular niche at all. That's why I think the hate is validated, but for slightly other reason.
One of the funniest parts of BDO's afk-fishing was when you see the people clearly there for PvP and not fishing and they nudge people off their boats in the middle of the ocean xD
And once again, AGS is delaying the wrong game. New World needed more development time but they delayed Lost Ark instead and censored it for the West release. Now Blue Protocol is ready but they are delaying it to censor it and they are releasing T&L instead. I know AGS is not developing T&L but they can demand changes and if they can't demand changes or change nothing about it it's on them.
@@alreawon1212 Well I won't play it, I don't play MMO's; I was purely saying this because I like hearing someone's opinion, especially when they have experience with those kind of MMO's
The problem is that if you ask the wrong people - i.e. the players who stay - you'll often see them making excuses for it all just so they don't have to live with the fact that they are playing a game with P2W elements. For example in Planetside 2 - a 100% PvP game - a paying subscription will give you more and faster resources to spawn vehicles and specialized combat useables with. But if you were to complain about this obvious P2W element on the Steam forum or wherever all the veterans would tell you that it presumably doesn't matter much, that skill and teamwork or just the size of the zerg decides over loss or victory. Those people tend to downplay or hide it all when it is factually there and when in a theoretical stalemate it could make a difference. There are obviously varying degrees of this. Especially in the Western market you just can't go and add a button "click here and give us your money to instantly win the game". Devs/publishers know that and need to be somewhat careful and insidious with it. They know how loud Twitter and Reddit and such can get. All the more reasons for us players to be aware of the varying shapes and forms of P2W. That being said I personally don't care as much as far as PvE goes. So that one random guy can carry more loot than me? Why should I care? I'm not competing on some leaderboards with him, I'll likely never see him again. But then the barriers between PvE and PvP aren't always so strict and others do actually compete with others even in genuine PvE environments, so I guess I see where they are coming from when they lose it when it's just carrying or stash capacity or somesuch. In a sense one could also make the argument that hiding just cosmetics behind a paywall is P2W too - if you don't pay you "lose" the narcisstic fashion battle that nowadays rages in many online games. You really want to look uglier and more generic than that other player there? Nah, you wanna "win" this battle too. Can't be anything but the most special unicorn. MMOs literally have that fantasy in their ads.
"... by ncsoft" The people who thought this game would be good are the same people who fall for advisor bots in the comment sections of youtube videos.
As Reggie says: "If the game's not fun, why bother?" I can see past some things, like autocombat that isn't as effective as active combat, some p2w or pay-for-convenience aspects, but what does me in is that the combat just doesn't look fun, even for tab-target. PVP is supposed to be a sizeable portion of gameplay but when all abilities require you to be rooted in place, all an enemy has to do is simply move away and you'll never be able to even hit them. Couple that with the 8 hours of offline-play and unlimited autocombat while open, it basically becomes an idle game, not an MMO. I'm not sure how phasing or channels work (if any), but imagine trying to play manually, going to an area and seeing dozens of people using autocombat hogging all the mobs. It might have been too late at the time, but they could have taken some notes from games like Tower of Fantasy or Genshin Impact. They both are successful, people enjoy them both on PC and mobile, and don't have this type of nonsense that TL has. They might not be strictly MMOs in the traditional sense but they're only a few social features away from it.
Guild Wars 2 has made any MMORPG combat system that roots players during every skill cast obsolete. You don't have the networking limitation of the early 2000s anymore, developers. Rooting players during skill cast was not a gameplay balance design, it was a compromise in the design to cope with the networking limitation.
Did GW2 invent it? I don't think so? Also, everything throws some shadows. Seen another comment saying "live" action combat easily turns into mindless spamfests. I did play GW2 a lot and that's actually a good way to describe the combat in it, not only but especially when world bosses and meta events are concerned. I'm not saying I want that oldschool combat back. But not every game design of today is golden, it only maybe shines so. Is BDO even a proper MMO? Usually games that feature less restrictive movement and combat are in reality just small-scale shared-world coop RPGs. So I'd argue that a lot of comparisons being made are cases of apples vs. oranges. On a sidenote, I like your Eureka 7 pic.
I guess its more of a "makes you excited to log in and collect reward" expectation, more of a bait for your brain than actually a fun thing. Like daily rewards.
I now want to see someone playing as many MMOs as they can at the same time. How many games have an auto feature that you can just run simultaneously with others?
I think they should have kept the lineage branding so people would know what to expect but they made it seem like they had turned the franchise into and action combat game
I find it funny that I'm sure for some people being able to pay for the game to play itself offline is a huge deal but letting the game auto play itself while you're online sleeping or at work is acceptable
I came in expecting LIneage 3 and that's exactly what I got. It seems like the combat is less static at higher levels, but I doubt most will play for months to get there. I'm really looking forward to it.
Finally some devs thinking about inclusion. You don't know how much this features help people like me with Compulsatory Masturbation Syndrome. Alright, be right back.
For Black Desert, convenience wasn't the problem so much as the lack of fun content. When mindless grinding is 95% of what you're forced to do, that's just not fun.
@@juniisenpai3777 I didn't say it's the only thing. Learn to read. I stopped playing years ago and back then grinding was literally 95% of the game's content. The other 5% was boring world bosses and getting killed by whales in PvP.
BDO worked perfectly as an open world PVP MMO back in 2017-2018 because the content was 50% grinding and 50% fighting other players for control of your grind spot. There was constant fighting for control of a zone and most of the time you needed a guild to hold down a spot. There wasn't a lot of channels or grind spots, so every grind spot was basically a node war/GVG 24/7. You needed to PVE to get stronger, you needed to PVP to PVE; so the progression had a perfect gameplay loop of an ever increasing arms race and food chain. Now BDO is a lot more of a themepark MMO without all the content that makes a themepark engaging like group content or raids. There are too many grind spots and too many channels and the karma system is so punishing people rarely ever PVP. There's no incentive to PVP because the attacker loses so much and you can just swap to another channel every few minutes with dozens of grind spots. You actively waste your own time and shoot yourself in the foot when you try to engage in PVP, which is the main content and selling point in BDO. Ironically there was more group content back in 2017 then there is now because you needed a group to PVP, the silver difference grinding in a group was less because of special deals, and places like pirate island were more efficient with 5 people. Now there are "group spots" such as gyfin upper, oluns, Turos, or mirumok but they're so trash compared to every other low level solo grind spot there's no reason to grind them other than the novelty. The dungeons are also incredibly un-rewarding and punishing (because you lose crystals on death) that nobody does them. It's pathetic that most of the group spots give so little rewards and are so dangerous compared to solo spots that most of the time you grind them you end up in the negative from losing crystals.
Along with the others. There's also negativity bias. You'll remember bad better than good. So if a couple really shit games come out near each other. Your brain concludes that all games coming out have been bad. You need to actively look for yourself to determine that's not correct and gaming is fine. But you probably aren't going to do that because it's more convenient and frankly enjoyable to catastrophize the industry to yourself until you see a good game again
The unfortunate thing about TL is that there's genuinly some nice aspects to the game and they clearly spent a lot of time building the world, which we haven't even seen in full as the CBT only has a portion of the full map. But everything else, from miserable gameplay, auto combat, offline play, a marketplace that operates with a separate currency real money currency and a dozen other systems NCSoft will no doubt monetise to high heaven... I've spent a lot of time watching streams and talking primarily to those who are genuinely excited for this game, but I just can't see this game be popular except with those who already played Lineage 2 and the several mobile variants. No doubt it will be financially successful, but for the majority of people it will just be another dead MMO a few months after release.
Thankyou for your take on this game. This game was going to be "my game" when it came out after I saw the game play trailer early last year. I was so looking forward to it. I mean I played Lineage 1, and when lineage 2 came out I didn't like the game play and only played it for a couple of months, then packed it up, removed it from my pc, killed the account and went back to this my old faithful everquest, plus played some rpg's like riven, journey through time, etc. games. Basically waiting for a new updated mmo. Then WOW hit the streets in 2004 - OMG: This has been my home now for all those years, except when CATA came out. I started looking around, played Rift as my new game (4 years or so) and let wow account die. I played ArcheAge for a time - but couldn't afford to play the game, I'd paid just over $3k for a little over 2 years! OMG. So I when back to WoW at the end of Panda. Now I studiously avoid PtW games. I avoid mobile-esq games. I played New World for a time but there were just so many bugs and the pvp was terrible. So back to WoW... then the trailer for T&L ... so now I'm seeing beta combat play and I DON'T like it. But I could cope I thought. Then I saw the AUTO PLAY - nope, uh uh, not in my lifetime.
have you seen the vid that a melee cant hit his friend because he doesn't stop running and the time to swing the sword forcibly standing still the friend is already out of range?
for me whit the pay to win stuff is that whit a sub I know exactly what Im getting I know what the cap is and all that. whit FTP games even if I put in 15 usd a month (Im usally getting less value then in a sub based game) im also behind a player that puts in 100 of dollar a month. 2:22 one advantage whit tab target is that if you dont have 30+FPS or 100 or less MS ping. Tab target is more or less the only thing that works. and if your game plans to have a lot of player on screen at one time doing combat whitch eather other. Tab target is the only option that will practiaclly work. trust me I raided in wow(a bit) at like 10FPS at 500MS ping. Tera online Forget about it would not work at all, WOW and its tab target works perfectly fine I had fun.
whenever i play bdo i nolife it for a couple months, get my gearscore to a almoast competitve level and then i get so burned out i just sell or gamble all my gear, i even sell my dream horses to the vendor to make sure i never come back, but this game man, it always pulls me back i hate it
8:50 good point, but the opposite is valid as well. If you know you're ok with this mechanic or that kind of game-design, you're biased as well. There is no non-biased-review. But good reviewers are able to take in other standpoints. I for once don't like ANY souls-like-gamedesign BUT i won't say Elden Ring or Dark souls is bad... it is just not made for me in particular. As for Throne and liberty... i don't know. There hasn't been one korean-grinder-mmo i liked. BDO i can tolerate but killing 1000 of a certain critter is not good gamedesign to me and the story is soooo boring. I guess i'll stay with FF XIV which is sad cause i want a good mmorpg with action-based combat, rich content and a great story. Tera came close but the closer i got to endgame, the more repetitive it felt. A hybrid of Neverwinter and DDO would be great.
I think that $15/mo is a fair price for an MMO. If it's within that range - I honestly don't care if it's a mandatory subscription or some Crystalline Aura in a f2p game. In fact, I think the latter is preferable because you can test the game before paying, or play the game casually for a period of time without paying and without quitting it completely.
"With the right expectations." is the biggest cop out. That's like saying, "If you change the idea demanded from supply and demand." No Kira, just no.... The onus is on you, the company to meet the expectations of the market, not for the market to shift their expectations to the company. That's not how supply and demand work.
There are many small channels owned by people who had access to the beta, and they're saying that the game is very enjoyable as long as you're expecting the old-school experience.
Even with an open mind and the right expectation, it's still seems hard to believe this is going to be worthwhile as a comparison to other successful-ish modern PC MMO. However as a mobile game, it sounds like something that could possibly crush all competition in the Idle genre?
I hate auto-leveling on any game, even on Mobile games. At that point literally why are you even bothering to install the game. It is the developers simply declaring "Our game is so tedious, boring, and braindead that you shouldn't even bother playing it".
I saw many people stream the game throughout the beta. The issue isnt that people expected action combat. The issue is that even the tab targeting combat is one of the worst ive ever seen. If you search on RUclips "lineage 2 mobile gameplay" you will literally see the combat of TL. Even the same animations and weapon attacks are shared between these 2 games. Its obvious the combat was made like that to monetize auto combat as much as possible. People in the beta had a 250% exp buff and most people didn't even get past level 25 with 10+ hours of daily playing. Let that sink in.
I try not to overly judge combat without playing it, I'm almost certain this will be bad, but combat is one of those things that feeling matters much more than visuals imo. In regards to how slow leveling is, that isn't really something I personally care all too much about. I'm used to the concept of slow leveling, I played lineage 2.
I'm gonna test it myself cause I did love the old Lineage 2, but from what I gather right now the issue isnt even the auto-part of the combat (tho quests seem to be designed to use auto combat but hey its a Korean grinder) but rather the complete lack of movement during skills - for mage or ranger classes thats fine but for melees it sounds absolutely unplayable
Games with very good graphics but average to poor gameplay design and predatory monetization systems seem to be the norm nowadays sadly. Even if its meant to be tab target it doesn't mean it will have the design quality of older games that have that control scheme too.
12:16 What the hell man? That is a freaking hell no. Proping up a crapfest of a game just to encourgae people to maybe make a better game later is a disgusting backwards logic that is highly anti-consumer. That just encourages more crap further down the line since it tells companies that the crap you proped up was acceptable.
I would definitely count expanding inventory slots, and carry weight increasing as pay to win because in most games those can fine tune utility aspects of a competitive build. For example: Imagine paying for more carry weight in a game like elden ring. How would that not be a form of pay to win? So spot on and props for calling it what it is.
Yeah, it can also be considered pay to win by allowing you more time to play without having to bank items, or if banking is limited it allows you to actually keep items that make progression easier overall. If it saves a player time, it's pay to win. That's not even taking in to account that a team of people sits down and says, "At what carry weight limit will players be irritated enough to spend money, but not angry enough to quit the game?"
whats funny is you can kill auto farmers .. the open world events look really cool, pvp events , world bosses etc, open pvp dungeons.. the open world looks alive unlike a lot of mmo open worlds
Your sound recordinv has a weird hum (noticed it on phone speakers, so it must be really noticable). Might be your rig noise, might be crappy soundcard hum (not sure what, i'm on work trip and won't be anywhere near good speakers for a while). Not really sure which one since it depends how you record yourself (PPT/auto/on... it hums only whem you talk).
It just looks weird, this kind of combat feels a lot better on the top down perspective. I had no clue they were trying to go full lineage the way everyone hyped it up. I loved lineage 2 and have very fond memories, this doesnt bring back the lineage feel to me.
NCSoft is so notorious that ‘bad NCSoft game’ is an actual saying. I don’t have to lower my expectations, it’s about time that NCSoft rose to the occasion.
Imo, they only need to maintain this archaic combat mode for Astral Hunting and then add real action combat when you are playing the game instead of legal boting and mayyybe this will turn into a decent game.
"You can literally milk people for waifu costumes so easily" me looking at my bdo purchase history.... ;/ . I'm glad on an extended break from bdo. Not because of how it is right now, but those costumes call to me. I spend a great deal of time with fashion on it. end game bdo is fashion!!!
"old style mmo" is no excuse. If you want to make an old style MMO, you pick the themes that people liked and update the mechanics within and around it to modern standards.
Also glad to have someone with a sober take. I find it hillarious that so many people who are currently hating on TL for the combat are also the same people who will say FFXIV is one of the best MMO's (which it is). This is funny because if you were to judge FFXIV by its combat for the first 49 levels you would say its a dogshit game, personally felt the combat in FFXIV was shit until level 70. I'm not saying TL is going to be a great game, but we should at least give it a fair shake. Now with the expectation that its going for an old school combat style, we can have better expectations and be fair in our judgments. The game appears to be primary designed around large scale pvp combat and raids, so lets see what those look like before giving a final assessment.
In FFXIV you can use skills while moving and in T&L you cannot. That means in the high level endgame content (savage, ultimate) you are keeping up a DPS rotation while also actively dodging attacks/raid mechanics, even though it's tab target like T&L. That, (keeping up a DPS rotation while executing complex mechanics) along with how the different jobs interact with one another is what makes raids in FFXIV engaging and wouldn't be possible in T&L because you cannot move while using skills. That also means the PvE content is likely designed around you not being able to move and use skills, so I wouldn't expect any mechanical depth to it
Ever since Bless Unleashed closed on consoles, lots of people I played with told me that they were waiting sooo bad for throne and liberty because they expected the combat to be similar to BU's, they are going to be so dissapointed
It's just going to be another dead MMO that will be closed and the options are few on consoles these days. MMO's are a dying genre and only the established games seem to be successful. Wayfinder which is coming in the fall, has a hell of a fight and it's competing with Warframe which is a decade old and has a somewhat stable playerbase with crossplay involved. The game being only on PS4/PS5 & PC limits the audience somewhat but once Xbox gets it, that will greatly expand. There's also The First Descendant which isn't looking so good from what I've seen of it and with Nexon's terrible track record of support, that's not a great option either.
I understand their reason for making the combat feels old school but the thing is they are trying to attract modern young MMO players and that will not end well. The amount of players that enjoyed the old school combat style is so little that it is not viable for the survival of any MMO. Personally I am fine with this combat but I am sure the monetization will kill it for me.
Heard people defending the game's combat, saying "oh they dont let you fight and move cuz oldschoooOooOoOOOOol". Dude classic EQ from 1999 let you swing your weapon on the move. I think Meridian59 even let you swing and move. It's not oldschool, its just bad
BDO now would be my standard for all upcoming MMOs that have similar graphic styles. If their trailers look like BDO or worse, I won't feel excited about that game no matter how Asmongold looks excited lmao. Especially hype about the trailer of a Korean game is not wise for me, from I start to play wow in the past, I've known most Korean game trailers are misleading. The next upcoming game that I have concerns about are Chrono Odyssey and Ashes of Creation for the same reason, I don't feel they are extremely better than BDO, a 7 years old game. I don't play BDO, I only watch my husband play it, I know why he likes to play it despite so many negative comments from other players of other games, and I know why I still don't want to pick it up despite my husband is playing it, I know the pros and cons about it and that's why I chose it to be my standard of evaluating a new MMO ;3
I dont really believe in "convinience". Many ppl say that the endgame fashion war is the goal. So buying cosmetics also needs to be considered pay to win. The endgoal is always to be better then the "rest" and if you can stand out from the crowd then thats kind of winning. On another note...when you are invested in a game then of course you want to have all there is to get. So there is no convinience in my eyes when its about a game you really want to play. Nowadays everything gets a label that just ever so slightly shifts the perspective ppl have on it. Just use a term that sounds a little less bad and ppl will drop their guard towards that even though it still might be something they normaly wouldnt chose. Every "convinience" there is helps the players to get faster to the endgoal so you have to label them as pay to win.
i think calling it tab-targeting , glosses over the issue , great tab-target combat has existed for a long time like guildwars2 . when watching the PVP footage of throne and liberty its combat flow is stilted awkward mess , everything has 1-2second windup time with no animation so you have to stand still near target to initiate , then there is 1 second global cooldown , with no ability queing so spaming next ability making annoying ui sound , while completely motionless , target moves out of range , and none of the abilities function , so repeat process walking up into range stop moving as no ability can activate while moving , then wait 1-2 second for initiate . maybe its lagging super hard , everything appears delayed and static .
There is one issue most Korean MMOs have, and that's that they are all flash and no substance. For some reason Korean MMO devs focus more on making the game look good as opposed to making it fun, I have tried some Korean MMOs, and every single one of them failed to hook me for long because they just felt like a chore in a shiny coat of paint, nothing felt incentivised. As for the ones I have played, they would be; Tera Scarlet Blade Black Desert Online Vindictus (It's somehow classed as an MMO, not sure how) I do still play MMOs, primarily Final Fantasy XIV and *_very_* occasionally PSO2, and looking at Throne and Liberty, I'll be passing on it.
Your big open room with no sound dampening is causing your mic to pick up the echo and creates a low-frequency feedback on your audio. In case you didn't notice during editing. On the note of combat being an issue. The no movement during combat is tied directly to their use of offline auto-battle systems. There's no client-side processing when doing offline auto-battle. Player characters are literally being played by the games hosting server. That's why there's no movement during combat. To decrease the number of processes and stress the servers will be put under to facilitate that feature. Also, as others have pointed out. The game features a seamless open world with a lot of open-world raids and public dungeons. No movement in order to fight is likely something they gave up in order for the engine to support massive numbers of people fighting in those open world raids. All of this is to target NCSoft's primary demographic: Korean Cyber Cafe's (called Bang's). Which, NCSoft has a subsidiary which is the countries leading investor/owner of cyber cafe's. They want people to grind and pay for the PC, food, and beverages at those cafe's. A game which allows you to progress while sleeping and working is a dream come true to those people who frequent cyber cafe's. Especially the cafe's that also function like a hostel. Where people will literally sleep and bath there as well. They can progress while at work, at the cafe, and while sleeping (sometimes at the cafe). This is the perfect game for a Korean mmorpg gaming addict, essentially.
The fact that people are against tab targetting is fucking idiotic, and the people who act like that are the same people who end up quitting the action combat MMOs first. action combat leads to incoherent mass spamfests in PVP, the PVE can never get to a certain point of intricacy so they just end up being garbage fights. I prefer tab target 100% for MMORPGs. Autoplay on the otherhand...is fucking r-worded
To critize properly a game it's needed to understand what does it propose to achieve. Games like BDO proposes dynamic fast-paced combat for PvE mostly, and 1v1 to 3v3 at most. Beyond that, it's just a cluster fuck with people jumping lighting speed back and forth getting tons of cc out of nowhere. For someone who enjoys more reactive based combat, similar to fighting shooting games, I guess that's fine. T&L proposes to achieve large scale battles effectively, for that, you need a grounded normal-paced combat, which makes the PvE and 1v1 situations more boring (mainly in early levels, with not many buttons to press and mechanics to deal with), but shines the more people participating in it. With that, you get a clean view of battlefield, group movement, and positioning. These aspects allow to have better understanding of situations and strategic decisions making, which leads to a good feeling of massive combat, which leads to fun. It's easy to see this when you watch the recent GvG T&L videos, which quite closely resemble the wars of MMORPGs like Rising Force, Ragnarok, Lineage 2, from the oldschools, and ESO and GW2 that manage to somehow tangibly, between the slightly more recent years (not so much in 2023). It's dishonest to compare games in the same genre that have different purposes in respect to a feature - in that case, combat -, mainly if you compare early levels of a game vs. late game of another.
And far from defending T&L as a whole. The game still needs much improvement, mainly in respect to auto-everything.
I don't see how an mmo can not fail nowadays. Think about it, if you like pay to win you go Lost Ark and you have the time of your life. And then you have WoW, FF14 and to an extent ESO and GW2. What can an mmo offer you that any of those 5 won't do better to be worth your time and / or money ? Not to mention the other mmos that are there that are objectively pretty good games, (even if they are or not for you) with varying levels of monetization, like BDO, Albion, Runescape, etc. Imagine what a new mmo would have to do to pull from these games long term players past the initial first month hype. Only game I am personally even going to look at is Ashes Of Creation, and even that I will have very low expectations.
they are LITERALLY bullshitting in those Reddit posts am playing it right now as we speak this game is by far the most optimized game i have ever played in my life on the 3090 there not a single FPS drops sound design is a beauty and every story quest is voice acted/cineamtic reminding me of better days of wow. What you said is correct coming from BDO this will never be the game for you but if your coming from RuneScape/Lineage this is honestly the most fun i have ever had.
i saw a different game in the trailers but im not sure of how the game currently is. ill give it shot but many peoples hype were shattered cuz of the beta not lookin like the trailer.
idk , i like semi- static combat. I played many MMOs in my young years and i hated that gameplay of runnig and jumping and sudo strafing to by able to hit your opponet. Like what the hell is that, no way this bad ass warrior in armor looking strait from hell and big ass two-handed mace is jumping in circles and doing damage in the same time. Lineage 2 is old yes but the combat was great, sure it is static but that does not mean you can not move in between attack and if you do it forces your opponent to move for him to use attacks. And if the guy starts running then yes it is free damage from your range skills, but at the same time he can get out of range and now you must move and then the tables turn so strategy is important.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
It really is strange how many people will keep putting their hand in a fire and still get surprised when they get burned.
I allow others to burn their hands for me so I don't waste my time healing.
A cook need to get stronger against burnt by being near fire
Even if they got burnt in the process
@@somechinesedude5466 I don't think thats how it works
It's not a bug it's a feature. These people's hobby is to hate what they pretend is their hobby, in this case 'gaming'
Criticism against bad game mechanics is valid regardless of expectations or history.
I think gollum a good game
@@samholdsworth420 you can't have played it if you do. It's awful.
@@samholdsworth420 😂😂😂
is the game even out?
@@sweetfry they sort of threw it out a back window and hoped nobody noticed it had been dead for several months and stank to high heaven.
I don't understand how all the components to make an excellent game can be known going in ahead of time, and yet we still end up with multi-year long debacles like Throne and Liberty.
or new world.
in general it does take a long time but 2 things make it worse.
-seniority over experience. personal opinions of older gen gamers mixed with "ive been here longer" rather than doing whats best for current gen gamers.
bad code done by the grunts that then turn it more n more complex to fix turning a idea of a system impossible due to breaking the code.
It tends to be "how many good features do we have to cut to actually deliver the game?" because budgets aren't infinite and the best mechanics are extremely difficult to create. For example, live combat in an MMO. Not only do you have to make a good live combat system but you have to make the game responsive enough, servers responsive enough, etc, to make it feel like it's live combat.
There are also different types of good components. You can appeal to the action gamers, the strategy gamers, the nostalgic gamers, etc. Different kinds of mechanics, different gameplay focuses, different difficulties to create and different market sizes.
Basically, a lot goes into game development and reducing it to just "why don't they just put good things in it and make it good?" kinda just shows that you don't really know what goes into making games. No offence intended, of course. It's kinda just like a webMD googler trying to tell a doctor that they should just "give me the cure instead of all these drugs that have side effects and might not help".
Because the component to make an excellent game and the components to make a profitable game are different. If Diablo Immortal has taught the industry anything it's that, Throne & Liberty will make money and that's all that gaming companies care about anymore.
It feels like every MMO in the past few years has sucked ass on release
Lost Ark and New World seemed quite fun at launch, until the issues started to become obvious and the players quit in mass.
@@Miranox2 New world was fun for few days(~Lv.30),Lostark was 3 years old game when it released on steam.
@@Miranox2 new world was a bug whole at release
@@renarenacat and still lost ark released with the same issues from 3 years ago, which is fucking funny
MMOs have been a dead genre for a decade now. The last truly successful one to break out of launch hell and succeed was FFXIV (post-ARR), and arguably Lost Ark.
I look forward not only to Kira playing this, but JSH for his “Worst MMO Ever?” Series. Because that’s the path it seems to be set on.
I liked BDO's action combat. I also like tab targeting. The thing for me is, Archeage set the bar for me for well-executed fun, fluid, combo-based tab target combat with so many possible builds and play styles, and that was nearly a decade ago. I'd take combat that was as good as Archeage, even if that's super outdated now...but not worse.
Archeage really did it well, didn't they... To be fair WoW is a good indicator that tab targeting can still be good, or you can have something like FFXIV where it's atrocious but it works really well in the environment it created.
BDO is way too all over the place with the ridiculous amount of dashes every damn class has and I think Lost Ark has the perfect formula for what a great combat system should be. It doesn't matter if it's tab target, action or hybrid, it just has to be well made.
@@Relhio jesus ffxiv tab targeting sucked ass...
That combat is insane to look at given how GW2 perfected the tab target/action combat hybrid over a decade ago.
At this point I would be willing to sub 30-40$ a month for a legit AAA mmo with zero micro transactions or cosmetic shop. The great equalizer of online gaming has been mutilated beyond recognition.
I think I know the logic the developers used regarding combat:
"Since everybody will be using our auto play function, there's no need to make so you can use skills while moving."
That person must have earned a rise, btw.
I don't think so...I think it's more of an indicator of the development hell the game's been in for over a decade. That sort of fundamental system is likely to be one of the first things that are implemented...built in from almost the word go. A game's movement and combat is integral to the core of the game and probably has branches rooting out into all sorts of other aspects that aren't maybe immediately obvious. Then as years have passed they've probably piled stuff on top of it, system upon system etc, to such a point where altering a fundamental system like the combat etc would be such a monumental task that it's beyond the scope of the available budget, and thus are kind of stuck with it.
That sort of combat, had it come out 10 years ago, (it was announced in 2011 as Lineage Eternal) it would just about have been out of date back then by about 5 years or so...although a lot of the big swathe of Chinese and Korean browser-based MMOs around at the time still had it...but lots of MMOs used to play that way (especially pre-WoW). Unfortunately for them, the players that remember that are much few in number, and a more recent modern audience will definitely find it bad in comparison to what they're used to today. It's like tank-controls in games...like the original Resident Evil or Tomb Raider games...modern players simply can't get along with it when they're used to modern control schemes. It's not that it's necessarily 'bad' per se...just that players are used to something different (and in general, better).
It'll be a tough road for this game with that in mind.
Well...
-They had an idea for the game.
-They begun developing the game with that idea in mind.
-They listened to some suit dressed guys about what is trending now.
-They altered the project foundations to appease the suit dressed guys.
-They launched an eldricht horror.
I'm not really sure what people expected with regard to T&L's quality. How many games that have been stuck in "development hell" have ever turned out to be good or at the very least considered as the "lowest common denominator" in terms of being passable enough.
These projects almost always tend to be disasters as the longer something is worked on, the more that can go wrong.
@@Ziko577 Not just that, but game theory and mechanical design can change quite a lot if a game doesn't come out within 5 years of development time. Thus making it obsolete with regards to playability to a large portion of people before it's even fully released
@@fdgdfgdffdg345 Yep. Technology advances, design technique changes, etc. can cripple them and they'll be outdated on not only the hardware but even in that audience's eyes.
Hoo boy I've been waiting for this video from kira since the day the beta drama started
Tbh, I'm not off, because the tab target, that locks you in place, when you do a combat action. You could still design this into a very fun experience with lots of skills with mobillity, utillity, skill shots and other mechanics like orb walking, skill weaving, etc.
But from what footage I've seen so far the mobility and skill shots are very sparce and after using a skill there seems to be a global CD going on very often. So no weaving or orb walking seems to be possible. Basically this does look like a game with a 20 year old combat system, that has not applied any of the many improvements and inventions in their very particular niche at all.
That's why I think the hate is validated, but for slightly other reason.
One of the funniest parts of BDO's afk-fishing was when you see the people clearly there for PvP and not fishing and they nudge people off their boats in the middle of the ocean xD
And once again, AGS is delaying the wrong game. New World needed more development time but they delayed Lost Ark instead and censored it for the West release. Now Blue Protocol is ready but they are delaying it to censor it and they are releasing T&L instead. I know AGS is not developing T&L but they can demand changes and if they can't demand changes or change nothing about it it's on them.
Blue Protocol needs a lot of work!
@@coldbreezeproductions LOL even if that is true T&L seems to need a lot more work and everybody agrees.
Damn, Blue Protocol is getting censored too? I was looking to try it, now i won't.
@@Drathan311 100% they both are not ready to be released.
Blue protocol will be shit anyway, and its not even pvp
We need Kira to play this and give us the real lowdown.
It's shit, that's the real lowdown
Play it and form your own opinions. Don't need to base opinion off streamers and comments on the internet.
@@alreawon1212 Well I won't play it, I don't play MMO's; I was purely saying this because I like hearing someone's opinion, especially when they have experience with those kind of MMO's
This game sucks, you don't need to play it or watch to know it
"Wild Star ... let's not talk about that one."
Did you ever make a video on that?
All mmos are paytowin is not only false but misingenious since theres a spectrum on how much paytowin a game can be.
The problem is that if you ask the wrong people - i.e. the players who stay - you'll often see them making excuses for it all just so they don't have to live with the fact that they are playing a game with P2W elements.
For example in Planetside 2 - a 100% PvP game - a paying subscription will give you more and faster resources to spawn vehicles and specialized combat useables with. But if you were to complain about this obvious P2W element on the Steam forum or wherever all the veterans would tell you that it presumably doesn't matter much, that skill and teamwork or just the size of the zerg decides over loss or victory. Those people tend to downplay or hide it all when it is factually there and when in a theoretical stalemate it could make a difference.
There are obviously varying degrees of this. Especially in the Western market you just can't go and add a button "click here and give us your money to instantly win the game". Devs/publishers know that and need to be somewhat careful and insidious with it. They know how loud Twitter and Reddit and such can get. All the more reasons for us players to be aware of the varying shapes and forms of P2W.
That being said I personally don't care as much as far as PvE goes. So that one random guy can carry more loot than me? Why should I care? I'm not competing on some leaderboards with him, I'll likely never see him again. But then the barriers between PvE and PvP aren't always so strict and others do actually compete with others even in genuine PvE environments, so I guess I see where they are coming from when they lose it when it's just carrying or stash capacity or somesuch.
In a sense one could also make the argument that hiding just cosmetics behind a paywall is P2W too - if you don't pay you "lose" the narcisstic fashion battle that nowadays rages in many online games. You really want to look uglier and more generic than that other player there? Nah, you wanna "win" this battle too. Can't be anything but the most special unicorn. MMOs literally have that fantasy in their ads.
I don't think the problem is that it's tab targeting per se. It's that it is needlessly shit tab targeting.
"... by ncsoft" The people who thought this game would be good are the same people who fall for advisor bots in the comment sections of youtube videos.
As Reggie says: "If the game's not fun, why bother?" I can see past some things, like autocombat that isn't as effective as active combat, some p2w or pay-for-convenience aspects, but what does me in is that the combat just doesn't look fun, even for tab-target. PVP is supposed to be a sizeable portion of gameplay but when all abilities require you to be rooted in place, all an enemy has to do is simply move away and you'll never be able to even hit them. Couple that with the 8 hours of offline-play and unlimited autocombat while open, it basically becomes an idle game, not an MMO. I'm not sure how phasing or channels work (if any), but imagine trying to play manually, going to an area and seeing dozens of people using autocombat hogging all the mobs.
It might have been too late at the time, but they could have taken some notes from games like Tower of Fantasy or Genshin Impact. They both are successful, people enjoy them both on PC and mobile, and don't have this type of nonsense that TL has. They might not be strictly MMOs in the traditional sense but they're only a few social features away from it.
Guild Wars 2 has made any MMORPG combat system that roots players during every skill cast obsolete. You don't have the networking limitation of the early 2000s anymore, developers. Rooting players during skill cast was not a gameplay balance design, it was a compromise in the design to cope with the networking limitation.
Did GW2 invent it? I don't think so? Also, everything throws some shadows. Seen another comment saying "live" action combat easily turns into mindless spamfests. I did play GW2 a lot and that's actually a good way to describe the combat in it, not only but especially when world bosses and meta events are concerned. I'm not saying I want that oldschool combat back. But not every game design of today is golden, it only maybe shines so. Is BDO even a proper MMO? Usually games that feature less restrictive movement and combat are in reality just small-scale shared-world coop RPGs. So I'd argue that a lot of comparisons being made are cases of apples vs. oranges.
On a sidenote, I like your Eureka 7 pic.
@@Lenariet I know for a fact that GW2 didn't invent non-rooting combat system.
I simply don't understand the point of auto-playing. Like, if I'd like to play some football, I wouldn't watch someone else playing football, no?
I guess its more of a "makes you excited to log in and collect reward" expectation, more of a bait for your brain than actually a fun thing. Like daily rewards.
im old school, i hear korean mmo i also hear leveling treadmill
How do you get rid of illegal bot farms?
You make your own legal bot farm and then monopolize the market. Simple.
Stand and bang is an EXCELLENT way to balance melee vs range.
Range can't kite as well if melee gets those few seconds to catch up.
I prefer eastern mmos as well, sadly their business is garbage 100%
Even in Everquest you can move and shoot as a ranger or move and attack as a melee.
I'm with you, for many people like us who enjoyed L2, this game is probably exactly what we need and I didn't lost my excitement.
"Everyone hates throne and liberty" well I have never heard of it before so I do not think Everyone hates it....... 🙂
I now want to see someone playing as many MMOs as they can at the same time. How many games have an auto feature that you can just run simultaneously with others?
I think they should have kept the lineage branding so people would know what to expect but they made it seem like they had turned the franchise into and action combat game
I find it funny that I'm sure for some people being able to pay for the game to play itself offline is a huge deal but letting the game auto play itself while you're online sleeping or at work is acceptable
I came in expecting LIneage 3 and that's exactly what I got. It seems like the combat is less static at higher levels, but I doubt most will play for months to get there. I'm really looking forward to it.
everyone made an assumption its action combat because the camera was purposely made to make it like its a 3rd person perspective
Finally some devs thinking about inclusion. You don't know how much this features help people like me with Compulsatory Masturbation Syndrome. Alright, be right back.
"git gud at playing with one hand!"
- Dark Souls nsfw modders
For Black Desert, convenience wasn't the problem so much as the lack of fun content. When mindless grinding is 95% of what you're forced to do, that's just not fun.
yeah but the mindless grind was made worse by the convenience bs
nice try, grinding isnt the only thing and it isnt forced.
@@juniisenpai3777 I didn't say it's the only thing. Learn to read.
I stopped playing years ago and back then grinding was literally 95% of the game's content. The other 5% was boring world bosses and getting killed by whales in PvP.
@@Miranox2 bdo had zero group content and the entire game was literally grinding lmao. I don’t know what it is now tho
BDO worked perfectly as an open world PVP MMO back in 2017-2018 because the content was 50% grinding and 50% fighting other players for control of your grind spot. There was constant fighting for control of a zone and most of the time you needed a guild to hold down a spot. There wasn't a lot of channels or grind spots, so every grind spot was basically a node war/GVG 24/7. You needed to PVE to get stronger, you needed to PVP to PVE; so the progression had a perfect gameplay loop of an ever increasing arms race and food chain.
Now BDO is a lot more of a themepark MMO without all the content that makes a themepark engaging like group content or raids. There are too many grind spots and too many channels and the karma system is so punishing people rarely ever PVP. There's no incentive to PVP because the attacker loses so much and you can just swap to another channel every few minutes with dozens of grind spots. You actively waste your own time and shoot yourself in the foot when you try to engage in PVP, which is the main content and selling point in BDO.
Ironically there was more group content back in 2017 then there is now because you needed a group to PVP, the silver difference grinding in a group was less because of special deals, and places like pirate island were more efficient with 5 people. Now there are "group spots" such as gyfin upper, oluns, Turos, or mirumok but they're so trash compared to every other low level solo grind spot there's no reason to grind them other than the novelty. The dungeons are also incredibly un-rewarding and punishing (because you lose crystals on death) that nobody does them. It's pathetic that most of the group spots give so little rewards and are so dangerous compared to solo spots that most of the time you grind them you end up in the negative from losing crystals.
Why do 2023 games suck so much? It's almost depressing at this point.
One word: Preorder
First rule of business: get away with whatever you CAN get away with.
As long as there's money to be made, they'll make it.
Along with the others. There's also negativity bias. You'll remember bad better than good. So if a couple really shit games come out near each other. Your brain concludes that all games coming out have been bad. You need to actively look for yourself to determine that's not correct and gaming is fine. But you probably aren't going to do that because it's more convenient and frankly enjoyable to catastrophize the industry to yourself until you see a good game again
LoZ TotK has been pretty good imo, not the greatest, but pretty good
Boltgun is good. Try that.
One game I miss from NCsoft, was Dungeon Runners. Didnt get to play for long before they closed the game. But was a ton of fun
The unfortunate thing about TL is that there's genuinly some nice aspects to the game and they clearly spent a lot of time building the world, which we haven't even seen in full as the CBT only has a portion of the full map. But everything else, from miserable gameplay, auto combat, offline play, a marketplace that operates with a separate currency real money currency and a dozen other systems NCSoft will no doubt monetise to high heaven... I've spent a lot of time watching streams and talking primarily to those who are genuinely excited for this game, but I just can't see this game be popular except with those who already played Lineage 2 and the several mobile variants. No doubt it will be financially successful, but for the majority of people it will just be another dead MMO a few months after release.
Crazy to think that an mmo from 2004 still have the smoothest tab target combat out there.
Is that really such a high bar to reach?
Thankyou for your take on this game. This game was going to be "my game" when it came out after I saw the game play trailer early last year. I was so looking forward to it. I mean I played Lineage 1, and when lineage 2 came out I didn't like the game play and only played it for a couple of months, then packed it up, removed it from my pc, killed the account and went back to this my old faithful everquest, plus played some rpg's like riven, journey through time, etc. games. Basically waiting for a new updated mmo. Then WOW hit the streets in 2004 - OMG: This has been my home now for all those years, except when CATA came out. I started looking around, played Rift as my new game (4 years or so) and let wow account die. I played ArcheAge for a time - but couldn't afford to play the game, I'd paid just over $3k for a little over 2 years! OMG. So I when back to WoW at the end of Panda. Now I studiously avoid PtW games. I avoid mobile-esq games. I played New World for a time but there were just so many bugs and the pvp was terrible. So back to WoW... then the trailer for T&L ... so now I'm seeing beta combat play and I DON'T like it. But I could cope I thought. Then I saw the AUTO PLAY - nope, uh uh, not in my lifetime.
I would buy the game and pay monthly fee for a good old school type of mmorpg without auto attack and item shop
they should have kept wildstar
have you seen the vid that a melee cant hit his friend because he doesn't stop running and the time to swing the sword forcibly standing still the friend is already out of range?
That's a shame, I was looking forward to this one too :/
for me whit the pay to win stuff is that whit a sub I know exactly what Im getting I know what the cap is and all that.
whit FTP games even if I put in 15 usd a month (Im usally getting less value then in a sub based game) im also behind a player that puts in 100 of dollar a month.
2:22 one advantage whit tab target is that if you dont have 30+FPS or 100 or less MS ping.
Tab target is more or less the only thing that works.
and if your game plans to have a lot of player on screen at one time doing combat whitch eather other.
Tab target is the only option that will practiaclly work.
trust me I raided in wow(a bit) at like 10FPS at 500MS ping.
Tera online Forget about it would not work at all, WOW and its tab target works perfectly fine I had fun.
whenever i play bdo i nolife it for a couple months, get my gearscore to a almoast competitve level and then i get so burned out i just sell or gamble all my gear, i even sell my dream horses to the vendor to make sure i never come back, but this game man, it always pulls me back i hate it
Force once again with top quality MMO content. He has been the gold standard for gaming coverage for 10+ years at this point.
8:50 good point, but the opposite is valid as well. If you know you're ok with this mechanic or that kind of game-design, you're biased as well. There is no non-biased-review. But good reviewers are able to take in other standpoints.
I for once don't like ANY souls-like-gamedesign BUT i won't say Elden Ring or Dark souls is bad... it is just not made for me in particular.
As for Throne and liberty... i don't know. There hasn't been one korean-grinder-mmo i liked. BDO i can tolerate but killing 1000 of a certain critter is not good gamedesign to me and the story is soooo boring. I guess i'll stay with FF XIV which is sad cause i want a good mmorpg with action-based combat, rich content and a great story. Tera came close but the closer i got to endgame, the more repetitive it felt. A hybrid of Neverwinter and DDO would be great.
I think that $15/mo is a fair price for an MMO. If it's within that range - I honestly don't care if it's a mandatory subscription or some Crystalline Aura in a f2p game. In fact, I think the latter is preferable because you can test the game before paying, or play the game casually for a period of time without paying and without quitting it completely.
Will you be streaming this game?
"With the right expectations." is the biggest cop out. That's like saying, "If you change the idea demanded from supply and demand." No Kira, just no....
The onus is on you, the company to meet the expectations of the market, not for the market to shift their expectations to the company. That's not how supply and demand work.
nice, I'm shocked.
I'm just hoping Ashes of Creation alpha 2 comes out sometime this year.
Tab target or action combat, i cant imagine anyone being excited for yet another korean 3d mmorpg.
There are many small channels owned by people who had access to the beta, and they're saying that the game is very enjoyable as long as you're expecting the old-school experience.
This is part of the Lineage saga
Even with an open mind and the right expectation, it's still seems hard to believe this is going to be worthwhile as a comparison to other successful-ish modern PC MMO. However as a mobile game, it sounds like something that could possibly crush all competition in the Idle genre?
Poor Aion... I really wanted that one to be good.
I hate auto-leveling on any game, even on Mobile games. At that point literally why are you even bothering to install the game. It is the developers simply declaring "Our game is so tedious, boring, and braindead that you shouldn't even bother playing it".
I saw many people stream the game throughout the beta.
The issue isnt that people expected action combat. The issue is that even the tab targeting combat is one of the worst ive ever seen.
If you search on RUclips "lineage 2 mobile gameplay" you will literally see the combat of TL. Even the same animations and weapon attacks are shared between these 2 games.
Its obvious the combat was made like that to monetize auto combat as much as possible.
People in the beta had a 250% exp buff and most people didn't even get past level 25 with 10+ hours of daily playing. Let that sink in.
I try not to overly judge combat without playing it, I'm almost certain this will be bad, but combat is one of those things that feeling matters much more than visuals imo. In regards to how slow leveling is, that isn't really something I personally care all too much about. I'm used to the concept of slow leveling, I played lineage 2.
I'm gonna test it myself cause I did love the old Lineage 2, but from what I gather right now the issue isnt even the auto-part of the combat (tho quests seem to be designed to use auto combat but hey its a Korean grinder) but rather the complete lack of movement during skills - for mage or ranger classes thats fine but for melees it sounds absolutely unplayable
Games with very good graphics but average to poor gameplay design and predatory monetization systems seem to be the norm nowadays sadly. Even if its meant to be tab target it doesn't mean it will have the design quality of older games that have that control scheme too.
I look forward to your review down the line
12:16 What the hell man? That is a freaking hell no. Proping up a crapfest of a game just to encourgae people to maybe make a better game later is a disgusting backwards logic that is highly anti-consumer. That just encourages more crap further down the line since it tells companies that the crap you proped up was acceptable.
I would definitely count expanding inventory slots, and carry weight increasing as pay to win because in most games those can fine tune utility aspects of a competitive build. For example: Imagine paying for more carry weight in a game like elden ring. How would that not be a form of pay to win? So spot on and props for calling it what it is.
Yeah, it can also be considered pay to win by allowing you more time to play without having to bank items, or if banking is limited it allows you to actually keep items that make progression easier overall. If it saves a player time, it's pay to win.
That's not even taking in to account that a team of people sits down and says, "At what carry weight limit will players be irritated enough to spend money, but not angry enough to quit the game?"
that is the price for most f2p is it not, cosmetic is not for everyone while carry weight is. I just hope the base weight is decent enough for f2p
whats funny is you can kill auto farmers .. the open world events look really cool, pvp events , world bosses etc, open pvp dungeons.. the open world looks alive unlike a lot of mmo open worlds
Your sound recordinv has a weird hum (noticed it on phone speakers, so it must be really noticable). Might be your rig noise, might be crappy soundcard hum (not sure what, i'm on work trip and won't be anywhere near good speakers for a while). Not really sure which one since it depends how you record yourself (PPT/auto/on... it hums only whem you talk).
It just looks weird, this kind of combat feels a lot better on the top down perspective.
I had no clue they were trying to go full lineage the way everyone hyped it up.
I loved lineage 2 and have very fond memories, this doesnt bring back the lineage feel to me.
I prefer the tactical combat system when you move or deal damage, not both. But I hate autoplay :-/
Modern games are NOT create/build for fun...it's for shareholders and PROFITS $$$$$
I wonder if they putting this game on mobile and be like “link ur acc and play on the go…” would totally be a Korean thing to do
NCSoft is so notorious that ‘bad NCSoft game’ is an actual saying. I don’t have to lower my expectations, it’s about time that NCSoft rose to the occasion.
Agree re BDO. Does things no other game does. Also great devs, they just don't playtest enough before release.
Imo, they only need to maintain this archaic combat mode for Astral Hunting and then add real action combat when you are playing the game instead of legal boting and mayyybe this will turn into a decent game.
"You can literally milk people for waifu costumes so easily" me looking at my bdo purchase history.... ;/ . I'm glad on an extended break from bdo. Not because of how it is right now, but those costumes call to me. I spend a great deal of time with fashion on it. end game bdo is fashion!!!
"old style mmo" is no excuse. If you want to make an old style MMO, you pick the themes that people liked and update the mechanics within and around it to modern standards.
I'm fine with some afk stuff if its crafting or other side-contents but why the combat...?
Also glad to have someone with a sober take. I find it hillarious that so many people who are currently hating on TL for the combat are also the same people who will say FFXIV is one of the best MMO's (which it is). This is funny because if you were to judge FFXIV by its combat for the first 49 levels you would say its a dogshit game, personally felt the combat in FFXIV was shit until level 70. I'm not saying TL is going to be a great game, but we should at least give it a fair shake. Now with the expectation that its going for an old school combat style, we can have better expectations and be fair in our judgments. The game appears to be primary designed around large scale pvp combat and raids, so lets see what those look like before giving a final assessment.
In FFXIV you can use skills while moving and in T&L you cannot. That means in the high level endgame content (savage, ultimate) you are keeping up a DPS rotation while also actively dodging attacks/raid mechanics, even though it's tab target like T&L. That, (keeping up a DPS rotation while executing complex mechanics) along with how the different jobs interact with one another is what makes raids in FFXIV engaging and wouldn't be possible in T&L because you cannot move while using skills. That also means the PvE content is likely designed around you not being able to move and use skills, so I wouldn't expect any mechanical depth to it
Ever since Bless Unleashed closed on consoles, lots of people I played with told me that they were waiting sooo bad for throne and liberty because they expected the combat to be similar to BU's, they are going to be so dissapointed
It's just going to be another dead MMO that will be closed and the options are few on consoles these days. MMO's are a dying genre and only the established games seem to be successful.
Wayfinder which is coming in the fall, has a hell of a fight and it's competing with Warframe which is a decade old and has a somewhat stable playerbase with crossplay involved. The game being only on PS4/PS5 & PC limits the audience somewhat but once Xbox gets it, that will greatly expand. There's also The First Descendant which isn't looking so good from what I've seen of it and with Nexon's terrible track record of support, that's not a great option either.
@@Ziko577 xbox has a far lower playerbase than playstation or pc though? (globally).
@@spaceli0n Yeah which is why we don't get as many JRPGs or other types of games.
I understand their reason for making the combat feels old school but the thing is they are trying to attract modern young MMO players and that will not end well. The amount of players that enjoyed the old school combat style is so little that it is not viable for the survival of any MMO. Personally I am fine with this combat but I am sure the monetization will kill it for me.
Heard people defending the game's combat, saying "oh they dont let you fight and move cuz oldschoooOooOoOOOOol". Dude classic EQ from 1999 let you swing your weapon on the move. I think Meridian59 even let you swing and move. It's not oldschool, its just bad
BDO now would be my standard for all upcoming MMOs that have similar graphic styles. If their trailers look like BDO or worse, I won't feel excited about that game no matter how Asmongold looks excited lmao. Especially hype about the trailer of a Korean game is not wise for me, from I start to play wow in the past, I've known most Korean game trailers are misleading.
The next upcoming game that I have concerns about are Chrono Odyssey and Ashes of Creation for the same reason, I don't feel they are extremely better than BDO, a 7 years old game. I don't play BDO, I only watch my husband play it, I know why he likes to play it despite so many negative comments from other players of other games, and I know why I still don't want to pick it up despite my husband is playing it, I know the pros and cons about it and that's why I chose it to be my standard of evaluating a new MMO ;3
ugh.. how do u fuck up tab target
I'll wait for Kira's verdict lul
hahaha, this is a mobile game in disguise! Auto combat? Bro! Thats how you kill any hype l had.
I dont really believe in "convinience". Many ppl say that the endgame fashion war is the goal. So buying cosmetics also needs to be considered pay to win. The endgoal is always to be better then the "rest" and if you can stand out from the crowd then thats kind of winning. On another note...when you are invested in a game then of course you want to have all there is to get. So there is no convinience in my eyes when its about a game you really want to play.
Nowadays everything gets a label that just ever so slightly shifts the perspective ppl have on it. Just use a term that sounds a little less bad and ppl will drop their guard towards that even though it still might be something they normaly wouldnt chose. Every "convinience" there is helps the players to get faster to the endgoal so you have to label them as pay to win.
Like the labeling "it's just cosmetic" as a framing "it doesn't hurt you"
.... and then all the goofy things running around ruining my immersion....
i think calling it tab-targeting , glosses over the issue , great tab-target combat has existed for a long time like guildwars2 . when watching the PVP footage of throne and liberty its combat flow is stilted awkward mess , everything has 1-2second windup time with no animation so you have to stand still near target to initiate , then there is 1 second global cooldown , with no ability queing so spaming next ability making annoying ui sound , while completely motionless , target moves out of range , and none of the abilities function , so repeat process walking up into range stop moving as no ability can activate while moving , then wait 1-2 second for initiate . maybe its lagging super hard , everything appears delayed and static .
There is one issue most Korean MMOs have, and that's that they are all flash and no substance. For some reason Korean MMO devs focus more on making the game look good as opposed to making it fun, I have tried some Korean MMOs, and every single one of them failed to hook me for long because they just felt like a chore in a shiny coat of paint, nothing felt incentivised.
As for the ones I have played, they would be;
Tera
Scarlet Blade
Black Desert Online
Vindictus (It's somehow classed as an MMO, not sure how)
I do still play MMOs, primarily Final Fantasy XIV and *_very_* occasionally PSO2, and looking at Throne and Liberty, I'll be passing on it.
Your big open room with no sound dampening is causing your mic to pick up the echo and creates a low-frequency feedback on your audio. In case you didn't notice during editing.
On the note of combat being an issue. The no movement during combat is tied directly to their use of offline auto-battle systems. There's no client-side processing when doing offline auto-battle. Player characters are literally being played by the games hosting server. That's why there's no movement during combat. To decrease the number of processes and stress the servers will be put under to facilitate that feature. Also, as others have pointed out. The game features a seamless open world with a lot of open-world raids and public dungeons. No movement in order to fight is likely something they gave up in order for the engine to support massive numbers of people fighting in those open world raids.
All of this is to target NCSoft's primary demographic: Korean Cyber Cafe's (called Bang's). Which, NCSoft has a subsidiary which is the countries leading investor/owner of cyber cafe's. They want people to grind and pay for the PC, food, and beverages at those cafe's. A game which allows you to progress while sleeping and working is a dream come true to those people who frequent cyber cafe's. Especially the cafe's that also function like a hostel. Where people will literally sleep and bath there as well. They can progress while at work, at the cafe, and while sleeping (sometimes at the cafe). This is the perfect game for a Korean mmorpg gaming addict, essentially.
Huh, I wonder why this is so-
"This is by NCSoft."
...Ah
The fact that people are against tab targetting is fucking idiotic, and the people who act like that are the same people who end up quitting the action combat MMOs first. action combat leads to incoherent mass spamfests in PVP, the PVE can never get to a certain point of intricacy so they just end up being garbage fights. I prefer tab target 100% for MMORPGs.
Autoplay on the otherhand...is fucking r-worded
To critize properly a game it's needed to understand what does it propose to achieve.
Games like BDO proposes dynamic fast-paced combat for PvE mostly, and 1v1 to 3v3 at most. Beyond that, it's just a cluster fuck with people jumping lighting speed back and forth getting tons of cc out of nowhere. For someone who enjoys more reactive based combat, similar to fighting shooting games, I guess that's fine.
T&L proposes to achieve large scale battles effectively, for that, you need a grounded normal-paced combat, which makes the PvE and 1v1 situations more boring (mainly in early levels, with not many buttons to press and mechanics to deal with), but shines the more people participating in it. With that, you get a clean view of battlefield, group movement, and positioning. These aspects allow to have better understanding of situations and strategic decisions making, which leads to a good feeling of massive combat, which leads to fun. It's easy to see this when you watch the recent GvG T&L videos, which quite closely resemble the wars of MMORPGs like Rising Force, Ragnarok, Lineage 2, from the oldschools, and ESO and GW2 that manage to somehow tangibly, between the slightly more recent years (not so much in 2023).
It's dishonest to compare games in the same genre that have different purposes in respect to a feature - in that case, combat -, mainly if you compare early levels of a game vs. late game of another.
And far from defending T&L as a whole. The game still needs much improvement, mainly in respect to auto-everything.
I don't see how an mmo can not fail nowadays. Think about it, if you like pay to win you go Lost Ark and you have the time of your life. And then you have WoW, FF14 and to an extent ESO and GW2. What can an mmo offer you that any of those 5 won't do better to be worth your time and / or money ? Not to mention the other mmos that are there that are objectively pretty good games, (even if they are or not for you) with varying levels of monetization, like BDO, Albion, Runescape, etc. Imagine what a new mmo would have to do to pull from these games long term players past the initial first month hype. Only game I am personally even going to look at is Ashes Of Creation, and even that I will have very low expectations.
Wow, NCSoft out did themselves this time. Killed a game before it even released...
they are LITERALLY bullshitting in those Reddit posts am playing it right now as we speak this game is by far the most optimized game i have ever played in my life on the 3090 there not a single FPS drops sound design is a beauty and every story quest is voice acted/cineamtic reminding me of better days of wow. What you said is correct coming from BDO this will never be the game for you but if your coming from RuneScape/Lineage this is honestly the most fun i have ever had.
game looks fine, combat looks fine, might have to check it out
if a game has a cash shop I dont play simple as. Its why I dont play many mmos anymore. mostly single player and coop rpgs.
i saw a different game in the trailers but im not sure of how the game currently is.
ill give it shot but many peoples hype were shattered cuz of the beta not lookin like the trailer.
idk , i like semi- static combat. I played many MMOs in my young years and i hated that gameplay of runnig and jumping and sudo strafing to by able to hit your opponet. Like what the hell is that, no way this bad ass warrior in armor looking strait from hell and big ass two-handed mace is jumping in circles and doing damage in the same time. Lineage 2 is old yes but the combat was great, sure it is static but that does not mean you can not move in between attack and if you do it forces your opponent to move for him to use attacks. And if the guy starts running then yes it is free damage from your range skills, but at the same time he can get out of range and now you must move and then the tables turn so strategy is important.