Deckel Highspeed Head Teardown
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- Опубликовано: 2 июл 2024
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It was 6AM here in Canada, I had just made my first coffee and turned on the laptop to check the weather and there is Stefan to distract me from from actually doing my morning routine. I always enjoy disassembly/repair posts about machine tools, particularly such wonderfully designed and made tools such as the Deckel. Thanks Stefan.
Would it be safe to assume you never finished checking the weather report? RIP...
Stefan, how dare?! 🫵🏾
__
@@NightsReign I did check the weather report (chance of showers all day, high of 24c), but that was 1 hour later after watching Stefan's post. One must have their priorities!
Hereafter, this Deckel High Speed Head will be known as "Das Rattenscheißehaus"...
Nicely done Stefan! Looking forward to seeing how the preload adjustment is accomplished on this spindle.
I guess I better start cleaning my shop for next year :)
ATB, Robin
Morning, Stefan. When you said "I think I'm burning some rat poop" that filled me with existential dread.
Regarding bearings, I have a 1960's vintage surface grinder that I am the third owner of that is in pristine condition, I contacted a company to discuss buying a set of bearings and was quoted $450 each which is more than I paid for the entire machine! Taking care of what we have is definitely the better option if it's not broken!
Regarding expensive bearings. The shop l retired from l rebuilt spindles as my main job along with doing repairs on our own shop equipment. One of the die maker apprentices smoked the spindle on a small K&T universal head. Simple spindle with opposed tapered roller bearings. Except for the fact that the business end of the shaft had the inner race of the bearing as an internal part of the spindle. Replacing the bearing required regrinding the taper of the race. Special sized rollers and a special outer race. From then on the mill was just used as a horizontal.
@@mpetersen6 The FP1 has the same setup, unfortunately.
Yes to the sharp internal corners video! I've been scratching my head how such features are made, short of a slotting head, shaper, broaching, or like you mentioned, wire EDM/5-axis.
The hardest balls of steel has Stefan himself!
Really interesting project, I'm glad you showed in detail how the bearings work. The details in the books and example applications for some of these systems was a great addition. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.
It would be really interesting to hear you compare/contrast the two heads you have and what each is better suited to over the other. It would be really interesting to see you tackle the sharp internal corners, it's hard for me to wrap my head around how that works.
I can't pretend it is the same, but I recently got a used 4 jaw chuck that had very limited use, but was pretty dirty. There is a lot of satisfaction to take apart a nice tool, clean it up, and reassemble it into something satisfyingly functional. I have more appreciation for how much work some of your restorations must have taken.
I've seen well maintained engines with a lot of miles retain their cross hatching. I think they way they it holds a film of oil tremendously reduces wear. If this was a well cared for machine, I would have no trouble believing that it could have many hours of use, but held up very well as a result of being a machine of excellent quality receiving good maintenance.
Thanks again for taking the time to share these projects. These really encourage folks like me to try something that might otherwise be intimidating.
Nice work, and so many memes:
1. The smell of roasting rat poop - we like this in the morning, along with that bone to pick
2. Disassembly Rag - likely Scott Joplin would approve
3. Ball races - what's to say
Looking forward to seeing it in operation
Now thats a high quality piece of kit. Loving this content, very calming yet educational
As usual, excellent episode. Also as usual, machines and things I can not get nor can I find. Which leads to have to seek out therapy and deal with issues of insecurity. Kepp up making my life horrible and I look forward to your next installment.
Keep up the great work your Deckle episodes are wonderful.
I really enjoy these teardown videos. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Stefan, that’s really interesting! 👍 I’m glad you explained the reasoning behind that bearing design, it makes sense now.
More goodies! I was planning to sleep, but that can wait when there's an unwatched Stefan Gotteswinter video out there.
@21:00 Same setup as bicycle wheel bearings. Thought that was a neat way to do it the first time I took a wheel hub apart.
Jewelry for real men! Even though I don’t have the resources or “ permission “ for such a quality item, every time you dissect a Deckel I realize why you are so high on them. It’s fascinating to see engineers who do things right, and serviceable. In this era of disposable everything it is refreshing to see extraordinary examples of “ old school “ thought. As you don’t know the actual service time of this specific item, it’s hard to judge whether in daily production use if it would be so pristine, but with suggested maintenance I’m sure that it would be similar due to the outstanding build quality. Thanks for the jewelry show and I am on hold for the next segment. 🤓
Interesting point on the opposing slots ref spindle, good call on balance.
Very interesting discussion, thanks for sharing.
Regards John
I love videos like these. It’s always a treat to see a tear down of something that obviously had a lot of thought put into it. A complex machine for sure, but not complicated. Thanks, Stefan!
Looking forward to seeing this in use. 👍🏻
With all the accessories you're going to need another mill😉
In my opinion, this head is asking for a higher power motor coupled with a VFD. For the small parts you seem to do the high speed head could just stay on the whole time. With the VFD you would half or one third the number of belt speed changes.
Thanks for sharing the internals of this spindal, always interesting for us machinery geeks.
I've got an FP4 in storage... waiting for my machine shop space to free up to get it going... can't wait! :D Needs a fair bit of clean-up. It was covered in motor oil to stop rust, and there are a few bits of surface rust at non-critical places... but it has the original tilt and roll rotary table with angular DRO!
My g1l is in a shed too. I used to do a ton of semi free hand projects with it printed templates under acrylic scaled up
Very nice dive into the Deckel spindle Stefan. Thank you for your insights. Well done sir👍
I appreciate how complete your machine is. ❤
Regarding the honing of the quill bore, as you want a very close fit ,the quill would be ground to Dimension + tolerance and then marked for actual size
Then because honing allows for real time, in process measurement It's "easy" to acheive the desired clearance.
Hi - excellent detailed look inside your head. Sorry, I mean milling head. Looks like you scored a bery nice unit with hardly any wear. Good to get the rodent crap out of there, but overall you made out well. There was a squirrel nest in the head of my mill when I got it.
Edit: Also very interesting to see the solutions to complex machining geometries available pre-cnc and 5 axis. Absolutely ingenious solutions.
Good to see all this teardown in detail and learning what is inside.See you in part two.Thank you,Stefan-
Thank you Stefan!
Neat cleanup and lot's of TLC :)
I replaced my tiny lathe bearings recently (MUCH simpler) and the races were ground on the spindle and housing as well.
Nice to see different manufacturers using the same trick...
Excellent! My Tom Senior M1(1958) high speed vertical head needs the same treatment. The quill is worn in the casting also. I'm currently building an arsenal of ideas/info on how to tackle the refurbishment. It will probably get the quill lock you designed for your previous mill(import).
Thanks again👌
Very interesting and satisfying to watch, as usual with your vids. Good fortune for you!
The sound effects for this one are great. I figured Stefan would be a great singer… I wanna sample all the yoink doing and eeeks I love it.
My Haighton mill has a simple plain bearing spindle similar in design. When I disassembled it, having spent a hour trying to find a pin spanner to fit the spindle nut, I had to settled for a 3.xmm drill bit ... As I put the drill backwards into the spindle nut hole, the weight of the drill undid the nut!
Stefan, I love your videos and I appreciate that you record them in English even though it isn’t your native language. Thank you. At 27:00 you are showing us a poorly installed bearing and you use the word crooked. I have always heard that word pronounced Crook-Ed. The ed is pronounced like a man's name Ed (Edward). I only mention this because every machinist I've met strives for perfection, so please don’t infer this as an insult. Thanks again.
Thanks for the heads up!
Misaligned if you prefer on that askew/crooked/awry bearing set after a two martini lunch
Nice! 2 things Ive kicked myself for not buying at the time - high speed head for my Maho MH700 and a Wohlhaupter UPA2 Both items were quite affordable. Cheers👍
good video stefan..thanks for your time
Thanks for the video. Very interesting. It's astounding that the speed range can be achieved with such a small belt drive.
Danke für das Video. Sehr interessant. Erstaunlich, dass der Drehzahlbereich mit einem so kleinen Riementrieb bewerkstelligt wird.
Keep up the great videos buddy!! Hell yeah, I needed this today ❤
Thanks Stefan, helps a lot!
Nice, incredibel machine!
Interesting dive into machine tool design. One thing I'd like to see in the future is how you will set spindle bearing preload.
I've not seen a spindle with bearings like that before. Thanks for taking along on the teardown! Hope all is well there. - TZ
Wow, very Nice Stefan!
Pretty Neat hwats shown in the Bullentin! Always love the Deckel Content you serve us for Dinner
Thanks mate very interesting.
I was here for the birth of a tagline! Stefan Gotteswinter: It's Spindle Science!
You’ve got some balls Stefan
Thanks for the video. I decided recently to dsmantle my FP1 vertical head and horizontal spindle to carry out the clean and regrease on the basis of not knowing if it had ever been done. I was intrigued to see the 'integral' Deckel races for the needles and ball bearings! Thankfully, all are in excellent condition except for one slightly pitted flat thrust race that I got surface ground! Keeping watch on the horizontal spindle is worthwhile, as I noticed lubricating oil contaminates the Kluber grease! Kind regards!
What a timely video! I have one of these heads, and need to tear it down... 😁
Love the smell of burnt lock tight in the morning 😂
lovely intro Stefan!
It was fun watching your video! I am a layman when it comes to milling machines, but it was fun to see that your quill bearing assembly is almost identical to the setup in my Shimano MTB pedals (PD-MX80) they use 1/8” balls and a ~10mm diameter housing - about 20x smaller than that Quill!
I love old obsolete tool accessories!
I once heard that in Germany, Engineers are regarded, socially as an Englishman might regard a Doctor (engineers have the prefix in front of your family name, like Dr Whatever and such)
Is this true? I've often thought we really ought to give more appreciation to engineers, without whom this modern world of ours couldn't exist.
Much respect, great vid. Thanks 👍
We add m e to the end of a mechanical engineer but give us millwrights nothing
Hey Stefan, yet another great video! I would like you to do a tailstock/air hose hanger video, on your new lathe. A proper alignment and all of the uses for it. I know we don't see you use it much, and there's a million videos on it all ready, but I would consider your video going to the source. Thank you.
I like that you speak your German language some in you videos. Thank you.
I've got the high speed head for my Aciera F3, can't wait to watch this episode 👍
The Aciera high speed head has an different bearing arrangement.
You can make a special section for your channel and do a collaboration w/
This Old Tony
You can name it “Tin Hat Tony” and all the great uses for tinfoil hats after they are no longer needed for protecting your clean parts.
*I would have suggested you give it a go but I couldn’t get the title to sound right. … I mean Tin Hat Tony just rolls off your tongue so effortlessly and picturing his “time machine” video editing gimmicks and him wearing a tinfoil cap 😂
I feel you're not the first person inside that head and whomever was in there before you, didn't tighten things the right way. When i took mine apart (almost a NOS part), everything came apart by hand and medium force.
29:43 there's a Danish post (i can't find it anymore, it was probably from the late 00's by reckoning) where a machinist ground that section off, same as with the sleeve and used a Japanese tapered bearing set. Hist unit was .... carnage. That's one word to describe it. I don't remember much beyond that, other than the fact that he had painted the unit (or it was painted before hand, but it's a clue for those looking for this forum post) in a burgundy color. edit: another thing that i remembered, he ground the bearings off in stages. I think he said something like, letting the metal rest between grinding sessions. Dunno... how effective that is. I've never heard of anything of this, but i'm pretty sure that's what he said (my Danish is bottom tier).
Nice video.
You could inspect the ball bearings under a microscope, or at least a magnifying glass, so see if they are dented sligthly, and if so, replace them. They are quite cheap.
Fantastically entertaining! PLEASE, someone ship Stefan a Gorton! 😂 Man, German engineering is spectacular, but it’s unfamiliar - vermin, dust, dried lubrication, and surface pitting I have experience with. I’d LOVE to clean my two Gorton high speed spindles, but I lack the documentation, skills, and confidence to do so!
Nice example of how to work with quality machines. I was a bit surprised by the integrated bearing races but they do save on overall spindle diameter. The high-speed head for the Schaublin 13 is just a little bit smaller :)
I love your videos: they give me a standard to strive towards. As an amateur bodger with a Bridgeport, I can confirm that the Bridgeport head will tilt, swivel, rotate as you wish. It's not difficult to do and the weight of the head isn't really an issue. Tramming the thing to be perfectly true in three dimensions can be time-consuming, but isn't that the case for all traditional machines?
Viel Spaß
Thank you. Would be interesting to see cutting an internal corner. If you can find the time at some point. 👍🇳🇱
Heij Stefan, about the mouse poop: I found a piano on the curb and took it in. After a few minutes it was clear there was a mom mouse in there, giving birth in a really artistic like nest. There must have been a stack of cardboard boxes next to it because mommy mouse chew cardboard into nice stripes 4-6mm wide and about 10cm long.
I have to admit, I found the consistency of the stripes very interesting. Mommy mouse made a web of them into the mechanics that strike the strings- as a tinkerer I found that very interesting as I cleaned it out.
Their bathroom was under the keys and moths ate the felt but the damage of the mouses was (thankfully) not too severe. They must have moved out after the little ones were grown- I´ve cleaned out many mouse houses in the past so I think I can tell how long the nest was used.
You do a nice job, Grüße aus Göttingen!
Very cool
'that's a lot of balls...'
Great video, almost gave up when disassembling the spindle and faced the left-handed nut...
"Not a clean room", but it *is* a 'clean-enough room'. :)
Great!
Very interesting video Stefan! I am happy you finally gave the explanation why the spindle bearings are integrated, it is of space constraints, not to make the vertical head more bulky or bigger than necessary.
I will look into my Aciera F3 if the design is similar. I do not have a quill though, som probably not. Have you looked into Aciera milling machines? They are nice as the Deckels are, but Deckel was probably a bigger brand, more accessories and so on...
"It's spindle science.." love it.
Mr. Rathbone walked into the spindle housing and got killed when the machine started.
My god, grinding ball bearing races onto a shaft, thats such a deckel thing to do. Insane 😅
Its more common than you might think - If you take a Harig Grindall spin fixture apart, it would have its single ball track also ground into the housing.
Not really, back 40years bearings where pretty sh*t unless you pay for precision matched ones.
Now today a standard bearing from a good supplier (ie SKF) is almost on par.
My old chinese lathe got the SKF treatment and runout gone from 0.001 to 4 microns. Just with standard on the self roller bearing vs chinese P4 angular bearings...
A right and proper "DOINK" at 15:30. Carry on.
Enjoyed that one too
That was a YOINK!
Stefan Gotteswinter is by design, "Sub-worthy" Thank you for the video. I got my gearhead itch scratched (no charge for the visual). Cheers from So.Ca.USA 3rd House On the Left (but call before stopping by:)
First time I’ve seen actual chips/debris on/around machinery. I am not alone…………
Looking forward to seeing this when I've got some time on my own. 👍🏻
It'll be great to see how you use it and how it affects the finish you get straight off the tool. Did you say .55kw
I just watched your video on the slotting head again and you explained the this to me already.
Thank you for another great video. I would like to get a Deckel FP mill someday but they are hard to find in the USA. One thing about the Deckel FP mills I hear often is that they do not run in reverse. Is it possible to make one run in both directions? I guess power tapping is when it would be best to have it. With the high speed head having its own motor it might be possible with a vfd.
New video, time for a coffee ☕ break 😁
Great video! Have you considered replacing the motor? Motor technology has advanced a lot since the 50s. You could get something lighter, more powerful and variable speed for pretty cheap.
Considered yes, But I think I will go with ye'ol reliable, the 3phase motor that came with it. Its a dead reliable technology :)
@@StefanGotteswinter Makes sense!
You say Deckel, I think Dunkel. 🍺
Stefan, I hope you didn't lose the two small shims that were in the lock ring on the nose of the spindle. You can see them drop under the spindle when you removed the clamp... Cheers from downunder... 🙂
Yep! grabbed them (it where even more)
Had a dead mouse skeleton in my Bridgeport mill ram!
7:15 i just tape mine. I've a bunch of pieces in a big plastic bag, kinda like a shim kit. A bit of paper tape and they're sturdy as.
that carpenter hinge on a front lid definitely need to be replaced. it puts a curse on whole assembly.
Please do a video of your main spindle. I took mine apart years ago, and was too intimidated to do a rebuild. I believe it involves replacement of bearing elements with different sizes.
Nice video! So what is the recommended lubricant you will use, and how much of it? (I have the exact same head and I guess >5000h of use from its previous life). Thank you again for sharing!
A German person just taught this American a new use of the English word "Banana" - I never knew that it could be a verb!
"balls and the ball cage"
Lol
Not working at steelwerks here.
Nice safety crocks
I know you are friends with both Josh and Adam. As a fellow toolmaker, now designer, I have spent time talking to both.
Although I've not talked with Josh in a while.
👍
Inner race directly ground into the shaft, had the same (problem) on my Studer SFM 500. Why would they do that? Makes it impossible to replace the bearings, in my case there was pitting due to corrosion on the shaft, ended up regrinding the shaft to take standard AC bearings.
All OK with TIR < 0,002mm but would have much rather replaced with original bearings.
27:00 In English " Crooked" is ponounced " crook-ed".
Wow
I always thought that the Deckel, although a lovely machine, was a bit of a disappointment when it comes to using the quill for drilling and boring. What would it have taken to add a power feed to the head? It's the reason why I have a Thiel 159, which was available with this feature, even though it's not the commonest of attachments!
They deemed the Z-Axis powerfeed to be adequate for drilling and boring - I agree that they lack in some features (Depth gage and depth stop for drilling).
Hi Stefan, do you have any idea how much it should cost me to have the spindle of my FP1 rebuild?
Ballbearing Blues!
😍
It seems a very odd spindle design to me. I am accustomed to seeing designs in which the spindle bearings are considered a consumable and may be replaced at relatively low expense. In the Deckel, the entire spindle appears to be the consumable.
Interesting that it has ball bearings, the FP2 main spindle on my machine used roller bearings. I wonder if the FP1 main spindle is the same.
The geared vertical and the horizontal spindle of the FP1 are also needle bearing spindles. Only the highspeed head and the precision boring head are angular contact ball bearing designs.
There are/where many clones and lean ons of Deckel build mainly in Europe.
They are mostly good/excellent. Some on pair with Deckel. I can think of about 15 brands.
Why are there no clones of Deckel L variants?
Like FP2L and FP3L, they seams to be quite nice machines with high table capacity (weight and lenght).
Why are they "less desireable"?