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I am from Brazil and I used to watch his videos even though I was there. Now I'm in Canada and the knowledge I got before coming here has already been very useful. 😊
I have absolutely no use for this information yet I still watched the video because I appreciate the effort that goes into these videos. Thanks for always bringing us such great content.
As someone that commonly runs 5 psi for snow-wheeling, I was really happy to see this test. I've contended for years that low pressures help in bottomless snow (that is show where you can't cut through to the pavement/dirt underneath). But I would have liked to see you mention that snow conditions very widely -- what works well one time may not the next. And, I still think higher pressures are better if you have conditions where the tires are digging all the way to the pavement/dirt. However, I've also said lower pressure doesn't help on ice. While your results are mixed, it looks like I might be wrong about this.
I wish I could test in deep snow, no one has really worked out how to do it fairly yet though, so we'll have to use the knowledge from people who do it in the real world like you :)
@@tyrereviews I would actually find testing in thin snow -- snow where the tires might have a chance to cut through to the pavement -- to be more interesting. The question to answer would be is it common to have conditions where a 50 psi tire will cut through and get better traction than a 20 psi tire that floats on a layer of snow? Unfortunately I think any kind of consistency between test runs would be very difficult to achieve.
@@andrewsnow7386 Exactly. I'd love to know all of this myself too but it has to be done properly and fairly, and sometimes that's just not possible (without throwing millions at it)
Agreed deep soft snow in a 4x4 is very similar to deep soft sand. Go as low as your tire wheel setup allows. Since 4x4s typically have a lot higher and stringer tire sidewall than typical car tires you are able to get to sub 10 psi with little risk of damaging the wheel/tire or popping the tire bead.
I’ve always heard that thinner winter tires are better because they can cut through the snow and grip better on ground then floating on top of it, which coincides with higher psi to reduce deformation. To test, you would need to find a consistent runway size track to allow many runs on fresh snow, then measure the maximum amount of force per square inch it can support before giving way to ground underneath. You could then tune the contact patch through tire pressure to spread the vehicle weight higher or lower than the threshold, and examine the tire tracks after to confirm the expected behavior.
Was really waiting for the important warning at the end. 1.38 bar /20 psi on hard surface or higher speeds might kill your tyres not just out of wear, but by damaging the sidewall from getting too hot from the increased deforming they have to do. Sure if you only deflate that far for a short, slow speed situation in the cold, it most likely won't. But as you said, there is real danger if that low pressure is kept. That said, most people have too low tyre pressure in cold weather anyways. Because they don't check regularly, and usually fill their tyres when the weather is nice and still somewhat warm. So when they put 2 bar in at +15°C and then it gets around freezing, they are already missing around 0.2-0.3 bar on average. (depending on the air volume in the tyre and when and under which circumstances they filled the tyre it can be more.)
Good point about people not checking the pressures. A finnish poll from 2019 says that most finns only check the pressures twice a year when they're changing from winter to summer tires and vice versa. You can imagine how low that pressure must drop between the changes...
I really should have reminded everyone to check pressures. AT least the Fins check their pressures twice a year, places like the UK where we don't change tires no one ever checks.
Well, my dealer managed to hand me over brand new car with tyres which were inflated to 1,5 bar / 2,5 bar left side vs right side. So I wouldn't expect any normal user to check the pressures unless there is an error message on the dashboard :-)
I bring the pressures down slightly. On average, I run 12.5% less, from 36 PSI to 31.5 PSI. The tires are Michelin Alpin P5, which are classified (USA) as performance winter tires. This video confirms my experience. Thank you for taking the time to run this test!
Roddy451@ .. Copy that. .. Here in Vail @ a snowy 8,200Ft elevation, daily snow-covered roads are a given. ... Never really pressure down the winter tires; simply pressure up on the money @ 36psi. . '23 E450 wagon and '20 Subi Outback XT Touring ... Michelin Alpin 5's all around. P.S., Took a flier on the neu CrossClimate 2 ...... this tire sucks BIG time in the snow and understeers like a dog on dry pavement; '20 Subi Outback XT (235/55/18). .. Returned the tires @ Costco and fitted the Subi with winter Alpin 5s. . Back to normal.
Excellent, as always. This does *not* mean that drivers should run their winter tires at low pressures all Winter; it merely means that temporarily-reduced pressures can help on a surface of snow; low pressures will reduce performance and tire life when driven on paved surfaces. Kudos to Pirelli for letting you run their tires outside recommended pressures.
Yeah - I know someone who does off-road stuff in the mountains who swears by 18 PSI (and likely not a randomly picked number given their profession) in the snow, which interestingly meshes closely with the results of this video, but they also use beadlocks and inflate/deflate coming on and off snow or other terrain as appropriate.
As a Jeep Wrangler driver that has 35s I can tell you we always air down offroad and it makes a huge difference. When I plan to drive on the snow I always air down as well and 20psi for both has always been a good starting point. I don't think the results would change much but 15psi is also usually the low end where going below that requires a certain need. Thanks for the awesome data!
The problem is here in Canada a winter tire is in contact with the bare asphalt the vast majority of the time during the winter months because after it snows, it is plowed and then salted, which clears the snow and ice... at least on major roads and populated areas. That said, maybe this is more realistic for those who live in the country where dirt roads are more common.
After watching this I’ll be airing down to 20 psi for those blizzard commutes and back up again afterwards. I’m in Ottawa and it’s cold enough here that we get enough snowy roads. But yeah, growing up just outside Toronto, 99% of the time the roads were clear.
I agree. In northern-ish US, most major roads are free of snow and ice most of the time. Driving on fresh show is rare. Much more common is driving on packed snow/ ice left after the roads are plowed.
An underinflated tire has more grip on any surface. Not just ice. Of course, winter tires are useful only a few times per year. But when you need it 2-3% of extra grip can be a game changer.
The tire tread contact patch actually doesn't get much wider with lower tire pressures, but the contact patch does get a lot longer. Many off-road channels have demonstrated this with paint or chalk and lowering the tire down onto a surface to see the resulting contact area based on pressure. It can be quite a large percentage in added contact area. Of course, you don't want to drive at those pressures at higher speeds on the road, but if you're stuck in a snow rut, just like in sand, the lower pressure can be the difference of making it out or not. Once you're out you can reinflate the tires and be on your way
I'm amazed that this is surprising to most. Coming from the off road and snow wheeling community, I've been dropping my tire pressure during snow storms to 20 psi for decades, it's unbelievable the difference. Actually here in the northeast they use to teach that trick in the drivers Ed books. I wish the "people of the internet" would do their own testing before they give horrible advice like running snow tire pressure at 50 psi for maximum traction, lol
@@tyrereviews no, I’ve never lost a bead either. 33x12.5r15 tires on 8” wide wheels. I think the 8” wheel pinched the bead of the wide tire very tight and maybe helped? To be fair I was almost exclusively doing
Nobody said to run 50 psi, the tester just did it to see the results. But, just like you have off road experience lots have heavy weight carrying and pulling experience with increased air pressures. The argument for more pressure was to pizza cut into the snow, not float over it with low air pressure. I guess, before snow tires got good, more air pressure was a solid technique.
A lot of cars, especially small hatchbacks, state that the front tyres require more pressure than the rears, due to the weight of the engine. Going even all around can be in disagreement with your owners manual.
@@egocd Yeah my Qashqai even has 30 rear/33 front split and putting them to even noticeably impacts the steering and ride comfort. Unfortunately it isn't easy to get a good balance though as IMO 30 is too low on the rears and a lot of tyres don't seem to like it, while the steering starts to feel worse once the fronts rise above ~36 PSI and you need a good 3 PSI between the front and rear to maintain the normal levels of handling and comfort.
Currently on a 2500 mile road trip on snow tires due to temps ranging from 65F to 15F and everything from sun to snow, and pressures have been on my mind, so this was super timely! I have tended to run them high when in hotter temps to reduce overall tire temps and avoid overheating the compound, and drop them when there's a chance of snow. Seems like more or less the right approach judging by your test. Thank you for such helpful videos!
I work for an auto oem and I've been enjoying your content for many years. You do a great job evaluating tires given the limited resources you have compared to corporations. Your snow testing was spot-on; I'm glad Pirelli worked with you to give you a groomed surface.
Big thanks for this test. I think the discussions shouldnt be about riding with low pressure but to know that there is a chance to ride on when you get stuck! I was pleased that this is still the same with the new tires as we learned 45 years ago in switzerland. I like your great videos very much!
Thank you for the great video and for listening to our comments. I emailed you about that topic one year ago, and here we are! Thank you! Finally, lower is better-that's confirmed. If the golf's base pressure is 32 PSI, lowering it to around 20 PSI will improve its traction and other criteria by around 10%. I don't believe driving with 10 PSI lower in snowy conditions damages tires or wheels.
I know from off road experience that airing down your tires is the single most beneficial thing you can do. It’s simply mind blowing what aired down tires can accomplish. As for snow tires on street use; if you will be driving on snow covered roads for a prolonged period of time with no blacktop in the foreseeable future, then I think airing down to a lower number is a great idea. You won’t be going fast and I doubt the sidewall would have any chance to overheat.
great video, but tire wear over time is the missing factor here (for people in the comments thinking they should adjust tire pressure on their winter beater). if you aren't trying to maximize performance temporarily, or snow wheeling or whatever, there's no benefit to drop pressure from factory spec. the results within a safe operating range for the tire are so minuscule that it won't make a big difference for your daily commuting needs, but the tires will wear faster (which will make a difference for performance), and the mpg will go down. so it basically just costs more money and for very short lived benefits to drop the pressure. and no, overinflating the tires isn't a good idea either because the tires will just wear out the center tread faster so performance drops and will need replacing sooner which also costs more money. keep pressures stock for your vehicle- the tread will distribute vehicle weight evenly to maximize life of the tire as designed by the engineers. premature tire wear will cause more performance loss than whatever you gained by changing pressure in the first place. unless you're rich and buy new snow tires every month, then in that case go ahead and drop pressures because tire wear won't be a factor.
I put the stock size Toyo Observe GSI-6 265/65-18 on my stock wheels, at the stock pressure (35 psi) and they handle the rain, snow, and slush well - but I noticed after 2000 miles (3200 km) the nibs are still on the shoulder lugs. After watching this video, I'm going to drop them to 30 and continue to monitor wear.
I have driven for nearly 50 years and my experience with our vans at work has been to lower the driven wheels to 20psi on snow and reflate them as soon as off snow. This has worked in even recovering stuck drivers in our fleet and on just standard van tyres with no special pattern. Drive smoothly according to conditions and try to keep on fresh rather than compacted snow
Thanks for this test! There is always something to learn from your videos. Thanks to the rigorous methods you use we get reliable information. This is way more than entertainment. I had one memorable experience in this topic. No clue why exactly but once I have overinflated my rear tyres by 0,5 bar (2,3 instead of 1,8). The car started to have noticable oversteer in the corners on snow even at modest driving speeds. Fun on a closed track but quite scary on public roads :D
Loved the video and interesting takeaway! I knew for sure that lower pressure was better in sand (so many people get stuck in Saudi Arabia or Dubai, but get going once the pressure is lowered). So it’s interesting to see it’s the same for snow.
Being a Swede, yes, lower preassure does work in snow as you explained but the it depends on the snow, wet snow and low pressure is like a boat. Now living in Scotland i rely purley on normal pressure, Michelin Crossclimate and snow socks, should i need it.
I live in the colorado rockies. Vehicle spec with snow tires has always done me right. I've never even thought about playing with the pressures because it's never been an issue. Edit* but I appreciate you doing this experiment for us 😃👍
I live in the winter wonderland above the 55th parallel in northern Canada... In conditions like the proven grounds you're testing on I use 35 psi on my E rated truck tyres with a 7000 lb+ truck and it works great .. good video dude
As someone who takes trip to the rocky mountains in Colorado many times per year, this is amazing info! Very interesting. I'll use this an air down my tires (not winter tires but Alpine rated All Terrains) when I anticipate heavy snowfall, as I have an air compressor in my car to fill back up when the snow melts. Great info!
You have absolutely answered a question I’ve been wanting answered. I drive a fwd SUV but I run it on winter tires this time of year. Not just for any snow but for the muddy Devon roads I encounter. I don’t wiz up and down the motorway all day so high speed dry grip is an irrelevance to me. But I have wondered if in heavy snow I should drop the pressures. I carry a tire inflator so I can always pump them back up when on a clear road. So thanks for this post, it’s well useful 👍
Winter tires go on tomorrow here in New Hampshire! These videos are fantastic, helped me pick the X-Ice Snow from Michelin for my Nissan Rogue Sport last year!
Takeaway: Just like on sand or other loose roadways, lower pressure in deep snow can be helpful. For me, using recommended pressure, snow/ice tires always feel like they are defying the laws of physics. As an aside, living in Iowa USA, I have never driven on a dedicated summer tire which sounds like a lot of fun.
Awesome! Thanks for doing this! If I need that extra traction to get through my hilly neighborhood in the snow I now know what to do. It could very well mean the difference between having to put chains on or not!! I'm a little overdue to get my winter tires on the car, thanks for the reminder!
Very interesting and worthwhile test. Usually I overfill at the beginning of winter to account for the upcoming drop in temperatures, but maybe I will refrain from doing so now. Of course, you also don't want to kill your fuel economy.
Great test! Another way to think about this is hard versus soft suspension. On dry pavement, hard suspension is better, in the wet soft is best. Tire pressure is also another form of suspension. Especially on ice is best to have a little bit of "play" when cornering or changing direction (side to side or front to back) when accelerating or braking. Canadian winters have proven this over and over again. BTW, 10 PSI is only good for ROCKS> Cheers !
I have participated in competition on tracks similar to this Pirelli handling track. We put tire pressure about 1.5 bar. And still danger of pop off tire was big (competition with driving on limit). That is why we put inner tubes in tires (in tubeless tires). It helped. We didn't go below 1 bar.
In more official competitions tires are Nokian Hakkapelitta R, Michelin X-Ice Xi, Continenetal Vikingcontact. whichever is better in particular year. Street cars. Fun fact: There was a local retreader who offered "special" tires with "homemade" rubber. Tread was typical for retreaded tires -> cheap/unofficial knock off of 5 year old Nokian tires. These tires were banned from more official competitions, but faster than brand tires in winter track conditions because of soft rubber.
Absolutely fascinating, as always! Confirmed my bias toward lower pressures. Similarly, off road, particularly on rocks and sand, 10-15psi is commonly used, but only at very low speeds. Generally, the greater the contact patch, and tread deformability, the better the grip, though with loss of steering response, predictably. Amazing work! Looking forward to your next revelatory test!
@ always do, even though I never get to drive on snow these days… in Australia! By the way, I’m getting my new BFG KO3s next week, for my Ranger Raptor, 315/70x17, so I might take them to the snow, if there is any, next winter, while you’re testing UUHP summer tyres!
Really useful video. In Alaska 16 years ago there wasn’t any info on things like this. Arriving in September with only all season tires I was practically on skis after the first snow. Then, with studded snow tires, when the snow melts, there were too many walking speed near accidents on plate ice. The only info I could get was more pressure was better- to pizza cut through the snow. But, I’ve known that cornering and braking are more important than accelerating so, I’ll determine a figure based on your course times and braking figures. Knowing is half the battle. Thanks!
Thanks for the tests & info, as always. Have always checked my tire pressure monthly, and set it at the manufacturer recommended PSI - For my Subaru Outback that's 35 Front & 33 Rear. Nice to know that it might help to lower that a bit in extreme situations, but am not thinking it's desirable to do so on a regular basis. 😎
Keep in mind a temperature drop of 10C can also loose 0.14 bar or 2 psi. So in winter it is important to check pressure in as cold a temperature as you can if you know temps will drop quite low on the trip. I've had the pressure warning come up many times when driving from like +5C to -15C and then back to +5C. Basically going over a mountain in Norway and when I get back down to sea level it might trigger. I usually add 0.1 bar in winter to account for temp drops. My garage rarely get below freezing so going out in -15C or below is a big difference.
Winter or summer I've always done the size of the wheel + 1bar. 16"-> 2,6b. 18"->2,8b. 20"-> 3b. Even tread wear and good handling. Might not work in heavy SUV's but ant sedan or wagon has been just fine. I do run proper nordic winters tho. Got Hankooks iPike RS2's in all my cars at the moment.
Thanks for the test and the caution @20lbs...you don't want to hit a pothole with 10lbs of buffer to the rim. Since we are going into snow season are you planning test studded and chained tires? I think having a set of chains is the best idea when conditions get sketchy while maintaining proper road pressures.
As an ice racer for over 2 decades in loads of different cars and tires you might find it interesting that I settled on 15psi as the best all around pressure. With extended periods of excessive spinning/sliding pressure growth with a suprisingly hot tire by race end(like blued tread blocks kinda hot)would see hot pressures in the low to mid 20's. The grip was better at the start of the race and would fade a bit as the laps added up,but was too risky to start any lower.
As a Canadian I think I can confidently say the true answer is: "It depends". There are a lot of different types of snow and what works best for taction is going to depend on what kind of snow you're on, how deep it is, and what's under it.
When it comes to ice it's not unlike skiing or sledding. The more surface area available the less pressure per square inch and reduced friction. Pressure and weight are often overlooked. Of course, there's a difficult variable at play here in terms of deformation and flex when braking. Also, the tread design itself will likely impact how it responds to various pressures. No doubt location of sipes, compound softness, tread layout, etc means that a different tire model may react somewhat differently to higher/lower pressures. I speak from experience when I say run the recommended pressure. When you run low pressures it harms fuel mileage, but more importantly makes it so much easier to break the bead and toss the tire when you hit a paved high-traction surface with too much speed suddenly in a turn. The tire will dismount very easily if you catch it with sufficient force at a low pressure. Oh, great video by the way- it's fun to explore these topics.
I’ve got Nokian R5 winter tires on our Subaru Ascent, door stickeris 36psi. I’ve noticed far better control and traction when they are around 32psi in the winter. When they are around 36-38psi, the lateral grip especially suffers. I also generally run 2psi less in the rear since it’s rarely loaded up to the point where it needs the extra pressure, this is also based off tire chalk tests.
Cool test - using pressure which is recommened by the manufacturer. This year I still have summer tyres on, it isn't even that cold in Europe yet. During winter we got mainly dry or wet roads, sometimes slush snow, whole road with snow only in the mountains. They salt the roads like crazy so rarely getting icy roads - only during night. Had Sottozero 3 before, now Pilot Alpin 5 - these Michelins are much less noisy than Pirellis, I love that about these, don't want to listen to noisy winter tyres.
Not legal atm in Sweden in some places now. If there's snow out now and you use summertires it would be around €100-150 fine. The police could also tell you to tow the car away. But yeah they are busy doing everything else but their damn job 😂
@@_TrueDesire_Sure it depends on the country, some you need to have winter tires, only if there is snow or ice on the whole road, otherwise winter tires are not mandatory. So if it is +5°C and no ice (ice forms at around 0°C or below. So at 8°C there can't be any ice. But I'm going to change tyres in the next week or so anyway, the winter is starting slowly approaching
@@_TrueDesire_If there suddenly starts snowing I simply won't drive for those few hours, even if you won't get fine, worse thing is when you are in a crash, insurance might not pay when you have summer tyres and there are snowy conditions. Sweden is much more north so that is acceptable. I'm down in the central Europe so not much snow anyway...
10:25 if you've gotta know! Last winter, with temperatures close to -10°C, my dash showed very low tire pressures, so I inflated them back to the OEM recommendation of 2.6 bar for fuel efficiency or speeds > 160 km/h (front axle, Germany, winter oriented 4 season tire). Unfortunately, this was not ideal for the colder conditions; just 10 meters from home, on a compacted snow-covered uphill right turn, I started sliding backwards. Had to install my tire socks to complete the journey, so close yet so far. My observation has been that, applying the recommended pressure at 20°C ambient seems to cover all scenarios. Since that incident, I adjust the tire pressures by adding or subtracting 0.1 bar for every 5-degree deviation from 20°C. With this approach, the wear and grip has been perfect in every condition. Can't tell whether that applies to all tire-OEM-car combinations, though.
The biggest concern I'd have with low tire pressure is uneven wear of the tread, as TR pointed out. I've got wider meats for my summer tires and I'm getting excessive inside/outside shoulder wear despite inflating 3 to 4 PSI above normal tires on my car. Next summer, I'll be aiming for 6 PSI over stock.
Can you elaborate on the tire pressure at 20 degrees? Is it written in your manual that the tire pressure should be checked at 20 degrees? Does this mean that the winter tire will be severely underinflated at 0 degrees and colder?
When lowering the tire pressure its not for making the contact patch wider but LONGER. To lower the tire pressure to get more traction on loose surfaces like deep snow, mud and loose sand is very old knowledge. When driving on loose sand, like example a beach, you should always lower the tire pressure for not getting stuck in the sand. But with normal street tires this is only for emergency use/ short time, because the sidewalls can't handle this over time. With a offroad tire like example a All Terrain or Mud Terrain, you can drive with lowered pressure much longer. I have Nokian Outpost All Terrain tires on my Land Cruiser and when I'm on a overland roadtrip I lower my tire pressure from 34-35 psi to about 20 psi when going on long distances on bad roads like gravel roads, because of much higher comfort. When going on really bad roads like forest roads its also smart to lower the tire pressure to reduce the risk of puncture a tire on example (sharp) big rocks and roots. When I'm back on normal tarmac roads again, the tire pressure goes back up to the normal 34-35 psi.
Brilliant test. Just goes to show that performance in materials technology is never fully predictable, nor are the results necessarily linear. Too many interacting and counteracting factors.
I live in Finland and I usually run my winter tires maybe 0.5-0.3 bars under recommend pressure and I think that it's good compromise between lost efficiency and traction and if you run too low you will have uneven tire wear also I have done some offroading in deep snow and you need less than 1bar (15psi)
Based on your test, if its snowing, I will let out quite a lot of air right after turning off the highway and into the mountains on my next skiing holiday.
Love it! Thanks for posting. A note - I have a 2021 Jeep Wangler, which should be a great off road/snow/etc vehicle. That would true if it were not for the nannies. In particular the TPMS system, which requires a 38 psi inflation pressure for the tires and it will trigger a flat tire warning at some point in the low 30s. Ugh! That said, based on your test on snow days when I going skiing I’d like to try running them at 25 psi. BTW - BMWs will go into limp-home power mode at pressures below 29 psi. Got to love modern cars.
I hate TPMS systems thank god the one in my car doesn't do the limp nonsense just hoping one day the bulb will stop working. My winter tyre wheels will trigger the TPMS system because 1 one the used wheels I bought for it didn't have the sensor, my summer set are fine and are always fitted for inspection anyway.
I'm a snowboarder driving up to mountain parking lots and I also do Autocross racing- your videos are always Great and I've always wondered about this!! Can I ask; ideally you want contextualize to your vehicle correct? (ie. 35psi VW Golf tire placard; 20psi best snow performance?) Would recommend placard -15psi? minimum +10psi? Or how would you apply this to your vehicle/tire setup Think
I think it depends on the snow conditions. On groomed snow, I can see lower pressures being better much like on sand. However, I often drive through deep snow on roads not plowed. Trucks with high aspect ratio tires narrower in width tend to do much better in snow than low aspect ratio tires that are wider. However, I’ve never seen a formal test on this, just talking experience from watching many vehicles over the years. Flotation tends to not be your friend in snow that is 12” or more deep. It would be interesting to see tests on both tire width and tire pressure in deep snow vs. hard packed or groomed snow.
Interesting fact. I set of in August from the UK at 2.7 barg in my 295/35/21's. Temp was about 10 deg C. Between Cordoba and Sevilla the car started sliding a bit on the motorways. I stopped to check. Tyre pressures were 3.5 barg and air temp was 44.5 deg c. 😂😂😂😂
Some years ago, I went to mountains with my BMW 120i that I had that time when I still had RFT tires on it. I got stuck on hill because of someone who put car into snow barrier. I had to stop and wasn't able to get running again. So I decided to flat my back tires, runflats squished and suddenly I could get up the hill to the hotel. Then many people called reception they can't get up to the hotel on that snowy and icy hill. So I used my RWD BMW to bring people up. I think that was the first (and last) time small RWD BMW was used as hotel taxi in winter mountains.
Can you do this test with summer tyres to see the effect it has when using them in the snow. This winter test shows that conventional wisdom has always been best when it snows let 10PSI out your tyres. The tyres at 20PSI seemed to be the best all round when all tests are combined.
I've always been curious, figured it always just depended on the surface your tire was making contact with at any given time. Around 33 PSI is middle of the road tire pressure so likely the most suitable for all scenarios... Oh well lets see what the video says. Edit - Man those ice results were unexpected, I may need to try dropping my tire pressure to around 26-27 and see how they hold up. Thanks for always going the extra mile Tyre Reviews!
Without having watched the video yet, I assume it's the golden middle (or how it's expressed in proper English). Let me watch the video now to see if my wild guess is wrong or right 🤓
The flip I would think is from the fact of taking off you're unloading the drive tires, whilst in braking you're loading them. Difference in snow and ice braking I would think is kinda the same theory. In that on the snow there is more of an increase in compression as compared to on ice.
I run Nokian WRG4/5 on two larger vehicles. In the summer I run 35psi Normal winter pressure is 30psi With fresh snow I go to 25 psi. Glad to know that I haven’t been doing this for nothing.
Lower pressure would also require more frequent checks when temp drops. I had a bead let go on a -30F day when I hit a frozen rut as I hadn't checked the pressure since the beginning of winter when it was around freezing. If you have a drastic temp swing down you can lose considerable tire pressure.
I did always suspect that low pressure tyres would be better in snow. I knew that they would be better in hard packed rough ice or re-frozen snow since they can better mould to the surface. However, the low pressures would certainly be worse on dry days 😊
what i'm taking away from this is, I should try running the jeep's studded snows not at max rating when i'm plowing (+500# on the front, +565# on the back, in weight from the plow and counter weight.) It should give me better traction then.
Did I miss what tire size was being tested here? The two Golf Rs in my household are on 18 inch wheels for their winter tires, so dropping pressures is a bit scary from a pothole point of view. I bent a rim beyond repair on a deep highway pothole the winter before last. Still, this is useful info. I actually got stuck on my steep driveway once when it was ice over. Maybe if I kept a pressure gauge in the car and dropped my tires to 20 psi, I could have made it up.
When it gets really cold around here (Canadian prairies) you can tell which people have low tyres, the tyres expand in the cold and peel off of the rims, leaving them stuck on the road at the worst time to get stranded. But wait, you say, things contract in the cold. Well, no, not everything. Both water and rubber expand in the cold.
Thanks Jonathan, consistent with my experience* HOWEVER aquaplaning and also slushplaning - half molten snow - will become a lot worse with low pressures. So keep this in mind when optimizing air pressures at the beginning and end of winter season. As it turns out, air pressures becomes lower as it becomes colder so there is a natural progression happening here. So if you set tyre pressures at recommended at indoor temps (15°C warm garage), pressures will be better for snow grip at - 20°C being ~0,4bar lower by just having colder air in there. Nerds like us perhaps lower a little more again like here, 20psi is a bit low for hard driving imho, and also hurts rolling resistance... 25psi? * see my channel for some driving
Great test, very interesting. If you haven't seen sporting car trials have a google, where they go is truly amazing considering they run standard road tyres, no lsd and rwd drive only. I've watched them drive up muddy hills I literally couldn't climb up. But they do run their tyres at down to 2psi (they're bolted onto the rims)...
15 psi is still crazy-low for most places. I wouldn't try that except if you're 100% certain you aren't seeing any pavement. Personally, living in Toronto, Canada, I normally run about 35 psi in winter. This video makes me think I should be doing 25-30psi instead for improved grip in winter conditions(recommended pressure is 32psi all around for all our vehicles). We don't get a ton of snow here - mostly slushy conditions and some icy mornings/evenings with melted and refrozen black ice.
The Fanttik stuff is genuinely really lovely, I'm very impressed with them. Here's the links you need:
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Use code TYREX8APEX at: amzn.to/3AvbCGK
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Do the same for STRAIGHT AND Curved aquaplaning on water ...
some of the links just take you to amazon homepage
Awesome video as always! Thank you!
The Fanntik stuff really looks tempting but the promo codes appear to not be valid on the German Amazon.
Shame about the amazon promo but hopefully they'll have a good blackfriday deal anyway!
can you please do this in a ultra high performance summer tire on dry road
I'm from Brazil, I have never even seen a winter tire in my life, but i just like the way you spread good information in your videos.
I would like to visit Brazil one day
That's super kind, thanks for watching.
Съезди в Аргентину там должен быть снег
Go to a ski resort in Chile or Argentina and have fun.
I am from Brazil and I used to watch his videos even though I was there. Now I'm in Canada and the knowledge I got before coming here has already been very useful. 😊
I have absolutely no use for this information yet I still watched the video because I appreciate the effort that goes into these videos. Thanks for always bringing us such great content.
Glad you enjoyed it!
As someone that commonly runs 5 psi for snow-wheeling, I was really happy to see this test. I've contended for years that low pressures help in bottomless snow (that is show where you can't cut through to the pavement/dirt underneath). But I would have liked to see you mention that snow conditions very widely -- what works well one time may not the next. And, I still think higher pressures are better if you have conditions where the tires are digging all the way to the pavement/dirt. However, I've also said lower pressure doesn't help on ice. While your results are mixed, it looks like I might be wrong about this.
I wish I could test in deep snow, no one has really worked out how to do it fairly yet though, so we'll have to use the knowledge from people who do it in the real world like you :)
@@tyrereviews I would actually find testing in thin snow -- snow where the tires might have a chance to cut through to the pavement -- to be more interesting. The question to answer would be is it common to have conditions where a 50 psi tire will cut through and get better traction than a 20 psi tire that floats on a layer of snow? Unfortunately I think any kind of consistency between test runs would be very difficult to achieve.
@@andrewsnow7386 Exactly. I'd love to know all of this myself too but it has to be done properly and fairly, and sometimes that's just not possible (without throwing millions at it)
Agreed deep soft snow in a 4x4 is very similar to deep soft sand. Go as low as your tire wheel setup allows. Since 4x4s typically have a lot higher and stringer tire sidewall than typical car tires you are able to get to sub 10 psi with little risk of damaging the wheel/tire or popping the tire bead.
I’ve always heard that thinner winter tires are better because they can cut through the snow and grip better on ground then floating on top of it, which coincides with higher psi to reduce deformation.
To test, you would need to find a consistent runway size track to allow many runs on fresh snow, then measure the maximum amount of force per square inch it can support before giving way to ground underneath. You could then tune the contact patch through tire pressure to spread the vehicle weight higher or lower than the threshold, and examine the tire tracks after to confirm the expected behavior.
Was really waiting for the important warning at the end.
1.38 bar /20 psi on hard surface or higher speeds might kill your tyres not just out of wear, but by damaging the sidewall from getting too hot from the increased deforming they have to do. Sure if you only deflate that far for a short, slow speed situation in the cold, it most likely won't. But as you said, there is real danger if that low pressure is kept.
That said, most people have too low tyre pressure in cold weather anyways. Because they don't check regularly, and usually fill their tyres when the weather is nice and still somewhat warm.
So when they put 2 bar in at +15°C and then it gets around freezing, they are already missing around 0.2-0.3 bar on average. (depending on the air volume in the tyre and when and under which circumstances they filled the tyre it can be more.)
Good point about people not checking the pressures. A finnish poll from 2019 says that most finns only check the pressures twice a year when they're changing from winter to summer tires and vice versa. You can imagine how low that pressure must drop between the changes...
@@Pusahispidasaimensis OMG ... I test tyre's pressure each month 😂
I destroyed my PS4s-es tire walls with too low pressure
I really should have reminded everyone to check pressures. AT least the Fins check their pressures twice a year, places like the UK where we don't change tires no one ever checks.
Well, my dealer managed to hand me over brand new car with tyres which were inflated to 1,5 bar / 2,5 bar left side vs right side. So I wouldn't expect any normal user to check the pressures unless there is an error message on the dashboard :-)
I bring the pressures down slightly. On average, I run 12.5% less, from 36 PSI to 31.5 PSI. The tires are Michelin Alpin P5, which are classified (USA) as performance winter tires.
This video confirms my experience. Thank you for taking the time to run this test!
Glad you've found something that works for you
Roddy451@ .. Copy that. .. Here in Vail @ a snowy 8,200Ft elevation, daily snow-covered roads are a given. ... Never really pressure down the winter tires; simply pressure up on the money @ 36psi. . '23 E450 wagon and '20 Subi Outback XT Touring ... Michelin Alpin 5's all around.
P.S., Took a flier on the neu CrossClimate 2 ...... this tire sucks BIG time in the snow and understeers like a dog on dry pavement; '20 Subi Outback XT (235/55/18). .. Returned the tires @ Costco and fitted the Subi with winter Alpin 5s. . Back to normal.
Smart, I was going to say somewhere between 10-15% and you nailed it!
Excellent, as always. This does *not* mean that drivers should run their winter tires at low pressures all Winter; it merely means that temporarily-reduced pressures can help on a surface of snow; low pressures will reduce performance and tire life when driven on paved surfaces. Kudos to Pirelli for letting you run their tires outside recommended pressures.
100%
Yeah - I know someone who does off-road stuff in the mountains who swears by 18 PSI (and likely not a randomly picked number given their profession) in the snow, which interestingly meshes closely with the results of this video, but they also use beadlocks and inflate/deflate coming on and off snow or other terrain as appropriate.
As a Jeep Wrangler driver that has 35s I can tell you we always air down offroad and it makes a huge difference. When I plan to drive on the snow I always air down as well and 20psi for both has always been a good starting point. I don't think the results would change much but 15psi is also usually the low end where going below that requires a certain need. Thanks for the awesome data!
The problem is here in Canada a winter tire is in contact with the bare asphalt the vast majority of the time during the winter months because after it snows, it is plowed and then salted, which clears the snow and ice... at least on major roads and populated areas. That said, maybe this is more realistic for those who live in the country where dirt roads are more common.
After watching this I’ll be airing down to 20 psi for those blizzard commutes and back up again afterwards. I’m in Ottawa and it’s cold enough here that we get enough snowy roads. But yeah, growing up just outside Toronto, 99% of the time the roads were clear.
I agree. In northern-ish US, most major roads are free of snow and ice most of the time. Driving on fresh show is rare. Much more common is driving on packed snow/ ice left after the roads are plowed.
Depends where in Canada you are.
An underinflated tire has more grip on any surface. Not just ice. Of course, winter tires are useful only a few times per year. But when you need it 2-3% of extra grip can be a game changer.
@@billyhw5492 true, but that’s also true everywhere.
The tire tread contact patch actually doesn't get much wider with lower tire pressures, but the contact patch does get a lot longer. Many off-road channels have demonstrated this with paint or chalk and lowering the tire down onto a surface to see the resulting contact area based on pressure. It can be quite a large percentage in added contact area. Of course, you don't want to drive at those pressures at higher speeds on the road, but if you're stuck in a snow rut, just like in sand, the lower pressure can be the difference of making it out or not. Once you're out you can reinflate the tires and be on your way
You are correct
I'm amazed that this is surprising to most. Coming from the off road and snow wheeling community, I've been dropping my tire pressure during snow storms to 20 psi for decades, it's unbelievable the difference. Actually here in the northeast they use to teach that trick in the drivers Ed books.
I wish the "people of the internet" would do their own testing before they give horrible advice like running snow tire pressure at 50 psi for maximum traction, lol
Same! I always will run lower in deep snow. 10psi when slow Offroad.
10psi you must be on beadlocks?!
@@tyrereviews no, I’ve never lost a bead either. 33x12.5r15 tires on 8” wide wheels.
I think the 8” wheel pinched the bead of the wide tire very tight and maybe helped? To be fair I was almost exclusively doing
Nobody said to run 50 psi, the tester just did it to see the results. But, just like you have off road experience lots have heavy weight carrying and pulling experience with increased air pressures. The argument for more pressure was to pizza cut into the snow, not float over it with low air pressure.
I guess, before snow tires got good, more air pressure was a solid technique.
This for me also highlights how important it is for even tyre pressures all round. Great video as always!
Ha! The driver instructor from Birmingham. 😅
@@simsnqta Maybe not Birmingham, but importantly saving lives. Thankyou Ashley, Thankyou Tyre reviews
A lot of cars, especially small hatchbacks, state that the front tyres require more pressure than the rears, due to the weight of the engine. Going even all around can be in disagreement with your owners manual.
@@egocd Yeah my Qashqai even has 30 rear/33 front split and putting them to even noticeably impacts the steering and ride comfort.
Unfortunately it isn't easy to get a good balance though as IMO 30 is too low on the rears and a lot of tyres don't seem to like it, while the steering starts to feel worse once the fronts rise above ~36 PSI and you need a good 3 PSI between the front and rear to maintain the normal levels of handling and comfort.
Currently on a 2500 mile road trip on snow tires due to temps ranging from 65F to 15F and everything from sun to snow, and pressures have been on my mind, so this was super timely! I have tended to run them high when in hotter temps to reduce overall tire temps and avoid overheating the compound, and drop them when there's a chance of snow. Seems like more or less the right approach judging by your test. Thank you for such helpful videos!
I work for an auto oem and I've been enjoying your content for many years. You do a great job evaluating tires given the limited resources you have compared to corporations. Your snow testing was spot-on; I'm glad Pirelli worked with you to give you a groomed surface.
Big thanks for this test. I think the discussions shouldnt be about riding with low pressure but to know that there is a chance to ride on when you get stuck! I was pleased that this is still the same with the new tires as we learned 45 years ago in switzerland. I like your great videos very much!
Interesting to see what would happen on compacted snow or slushy road conditions as these are more common for me as a European in southern Germany.
It would have been, it's just very hard to consistently test in slush. No one does it
Thank you for the great video and for listening to our comments. I emailed you about that topic one year ago, and here we are! Thank you!
Finally, lower is better-that's confirmed. If the golf's base pressure is 32 PSI, lowering it to around 20 PSI will improve its traction and other criteria by around 10%. I don't believe driving with 10 PSI lower in snowy conditions damages tires or wheels.
I’m Australian and we just love our UHP tyres all year round 😂
Every time I buy my tyres only after waching your tests ! U are the best! ❤
I know from off road experience that airing down your tires is the single most beneficial thing you can do. It’s simply mind blowing what aired down tires can accomplish. As for snow tires on street use; if you will be driving on snow covered roads for a prolonged period of time with no blacktop in the foreseeable future, then I think airing down to a lower number is a great idea. You won’t be going fast and I doubt the sidewall would have any chance to overheat.
great video, but tire wear over time is the missing factor here (for people in the comments thinking they should adjust tire pressure on their winter beater).
if you aren't trying to maximize performance temporarily, or snow wheeling or whatever, there's no benefit to drop pressure from factory spec. the results within a safe operating range for the tire are so minuscule that it won't make a big difference for your daily commuting needs, but the tires will wear faster (which will make a difference for performance), and the mpg will go down. so it basically just costs more money and for very short lived benefits to drop the pressure.
and no, overinflating the tires isn't a good idea either because the tires will just wear out the center tread faster so performance drops and will need replacing sooner which also costs more money.
keep pressures stock for your vehicle- the tread will distribute vehicle weight evenly to maximize life of the tire as designed by the engineers. premature tire wear will cause more performance loss than whatever you gained by changing pressure in the first place. unless you're rich and buy new snow tires every month, then in that case go ahead and drop pressures because tire wear won't be a factor.
I knew the outcome before watching, but enjoyed it. Having the Mobility Kit to re-inflate is brilliant if stuck.
I put the stock size Toyo Observe GSI-6 265/65-18 on my stock wheels, at the stock pressure (35 psi) and they handle the rain, snow, and slush well - but I noticed after 2000 miles (3200 km) the nibs are still on the shoulder lugs.
After watching this video, I'm going to drop them to 30 and continue to monitor wear.
I have driven for nearly 50 years and my experience with our vans at work has been to lower the driven wheels to 20psi on snow and reflate them as soon as off snow. This has worked in even recovering stuck drivers in our fleet and on just standard van tyres with no special pattern. Drive smoothly according to conditions and try to keep on fresh rather than compacted snow
Thanks for this test! There is always something to learn from your videos. Thanks to the rigorous methods you use we get reliable information. This is way more than entertainment.
I had one memorable experience in this topic. No clue why exactly but once I have overinflated my rear tyres by 0,5 bar (2,3 instead of 1,8). The car started to have noticable oversteer in the corners on snow even at modest driving speeds. Fun on a closed track but quite scary on public roads :D
Loved the video and interesting takeaway! I knew for sure that lower pressure was better in sand (so many people get stuck in Saudi Arabia or Dubai, but get going once the pressure is lowered). So it’s interesting to see it’s the same for snow.
Oooh, that song at the end is a baaanger!!
Hahaha I just was saying this
So much of a banger that I had to find out what it was, which is "Wrath by AGST"
ruclips.net/video/d9GPAvKGlz0/видео.html
The next video on the channel will be full of them
This is the best tire channel ever. Great work as usual
Being a Swede, yes, lower preassure does work in snow as you explained but the it depends on the snow, wet snow and low pressure is like a boat. Now living in Scotland i rely purley on normal pressure, Michelin Crossclimate and snow socks, should i need it.
Thank you for yet another great test!
But what is happening with "All Season and Winter tyres" comparison review?
It's still on the list. It'll be a december video now sadly, just not enough hours in the day
I live in the colorado rockies. Vehicle spec with snow tires has always done me right. I've never even thought about playing with the pressures because it's never been an issue.
Edit* but I appreciate you doing this experiment for us 😃👍
I live in the winter wonderland above the 55th parallel in northern Canada... In conditions like the proven grounds you're testing on I use 35 psi on my E rated truck tyres with a 7000 lb+ truck and it works great .. good video dude
As someone who takes trip to the rocky mountains in Colorado many times per year, this is amazing info! Very interesting. I'll use this an air down my tires (not winter tires but Alpine rated All Terrains) when I anticipate heavy snowfall, as I have an air compressor in my car to fill back up when the snow melts. Great info!
You have absolutely answered a question I’ve been wanting answered. I drive a fwd SUV but I run it on winter tires this time of year. Not just for any snow but for the muddy Devon roads I encounter. I don’t wiz up and down the motorway all day so high speed dry grip is an irrelevance to me. But I have wondered if in heavy snow I should drop the pressures. I carry a tire inflator so I can always pump them back up when on a clear road. So thanks for this post, it’s well useful 👍
Winter tires go on tomorrow here in New Hampshire! These videos are fantastic, helped me pick the X-Ice Snow from Michelin for my Nissan Rogue Sport last year!
Glad you like the Michelin, get a review on the site!
Had Michelin ice x for last car, and now my CX-5. Definitely an awsome tire for NH
@jbrown4137 They are unreal! Performance blew me away, blasting up to the mountains early before the plows came out to hit some fresh powder!
I've been waiting for this video :)
Good job!
Hope you enjoyed it!
It feels like you make more videos than before. And that's something I enjoy. Thanks 🤘
They just all come out at the end of the year as they're winter bias :(
Takeaway: Just like on sand or other loose roadways, lower pressure in deep snow can be helpful. For me, using recommended pressure, snow/ice tires always feel like they are defying the laws of physics. As an aside, living in Iowa USA, I have never driven on a dedicated summer tire which sounds like a lot of fun.
Awesome! Thanks for doing this! If I need that extra traction to get through my hilly neighborhood in the snow I now know what to do. It could very well mean the difference between having to put chains on or not!! I'm a little overdue to get my winter tires on the car, thanks for the reminder!
Very interesting and worthwhile test. Usually I overfill at the beginning of winter to account for the upcoming drop in temperatures, but maybe I will refrain from doing so now. Of course, you also don't want to kill your fuel economy.
Ive always heard from offroaders that 18psi is just the sweetspot thanks.
Great test! Another way to think about this is hard versus soft suspension. On dry pavement, hard suspension is better, in the wet soft is best. Tire pressure is also another form of suspension. Especially on ice is best to have a little bit of "play" when cornering or changing direction (side to side or front to back) when accelerating or braking. Canadian winters have proven this over and over again. BTW, 10 PSI is only good for ROCKS> Cheers !
Also, this only applies ins slow speeds on snow. don't drive on highway with under-inflated tires
Yes
I have participated in competition on tracks similar to this Pirelli handling track. We put tire pressure about 1.5 bar. And still danger of pop off tire was big (competition with driving on limit). That is why we put inner tubes in tires (in tubeless tires). It helped. We didn't go below 1 bar.
What vehicles / tires?
I tried to reply twice. Both times comment got deleted. I am doing something wrong.
I cant promote/direct to a channel apparently. wink wink
@@pirotehs not sure why it's being spammed. I'll check out your channel later!
In more official competitions tires are Nokian Hakkapelitta R, Michelin X-Ice Xi, Continenetal Vikingcontact. whichever is better in particular year.
Street cars.
Fun fact: There was a local retreader who offered "special" tires with "homemade" rubber. Tread was typical for retreaded tires -> cheap/unofficial knock off of 5 year old Nokian tires. These tires were banned from more official competitions, but faster than brand tires in winter track conditions because of soft rubber.
Absolutely fascinating, as always! Confirmed my bias toward lower pressures.
Similarly, off road, particularly on rocks and sand, 10-15psi is commonly used, but only at very low speeds.
Generally, the greater the contact patch, and tread deformability, the better the grip, though with loss of steering response, predictably.
Amazing work! Looking forward to your next revelatory test!
Glad you enjoyed it!
@ always do, even though I never get to drive on snow these days… in Australia! By the way, I’m getting my new BFG KO3s next week, for my Ranger Raptor, 315/70x17, so I might take them to the snow, if there is any, next winter, while you’re testing UUHP summer tyres!
Amazing content as always. Can you make the same kind of tests about tyre pressures but in dry and wet? I'd love to see that
It's on the list!
Thanks. Useful information for us here in Norway. Might run my winter tires with a slightly lower pressure than normal going forward.
Really useful video. In Alaska 16 years ago there wasn’t any info on things like this. Arriving in September with only all season tires I was practically on skis after the first snow. Then, with studded snow tires, when the snow melts, there were too many walking speed near accidents on plate ice.
The only info I could get was more pressure was better- to pizza cut through the snow.
But, I’ve known that cornering and braking are more important than accelerating so, I’ll determine a figure based on your course times and braking figures.
Knowing is half the battle. Thanks!
Being from Sweden, I've known this for a long time!
OEM PSI! Give or take a 1-5psi depending on the tire.
We dont even get snow were I live but still watched the entire video, great work!
Thanks for the tests & info, as always. Have always checked my tire pressure monthly, and set it at the manufacturer recommended PSI - For my Subaru Outback that's 35 Front & 33 Rear. Nice to know that it might help to lower that a bit in extreme situations, but am not thinking it's desirable to do so on a regular basis. 😎
Keep in mind a temperature drop of 10C can also loose 0.14 bar or 2 psi. So in winter it is important to check pressure in as cold a temperature as you can if you know temps will drop quite low on the trip.
I've had the pressure warning come up many times when driving from like +5C to -15C and then back to +5C. Basically going over a mountain in Norway and when I get back down to sea level it might trigger. I usually add 0.1 bar in winter to account for temp drops. My garage rarely get below freezing so going out in -15C or below is a big difference.
Winter or summer I've always done the size of the wheel + 1bar. 16"-> 2,6b. 18"->2,8b. 20"-> 3b. Even tread wear and good handling. Might not work in heavy SUV's but ant sedan or wagon has been just fine.
I do run proper nordic winters tho. Got Hankooks iPike RS2's in all my cars at the moment.
So i used to ignore your snow/ice testing bc i lived in Southern California, but I just moved to the PNW and they’re now I valuable to me 😂
Welcome to the fun part of driving :D
Depending on the style of contact patch does make a difference on if lower pressures also.
Thanks for the test and the caution @20lbs...you don't want to hit a pothole with 10lbs of buffer to the rim. Since we are going into snow season are you planning test studded and chained tires? I think having a set of chains is the best idea when conditions get sketchy while maintaining proper road pressures.
As an ice racer for over 2 decades in loads of different cars and tires you might find it interesting that I settled on 15psi as the best all around pressure.
With extended periods of excessive spinning/sliding pressure growth with a suprisingly hot tire by race end(like blued tread blocks kinda hot)would see hot pressures in the low to mid 20's.
The grip was better at the start of the race and would fade a bit as the laps added up,but was too risky to start any lower.
As a Canadian I think I can confidently say the true answer is: "It depends".
There are a lot of different types of snow and what works best for taction is going to depend on what kind of snow you're on, how deep it is, and what's under it.
When it comes to ice it's not unlike skiing or sledding. The more surface area available the less pressure per square inch and reduced friction. Pressure and weight are often overlooked. Of course, there's a difficult variable at play here in terms of deformation and flex when braking. Also, the tread design itself will likely impact how it responds to various pressures. No doubt location of sipes, compound softness, tread layout, etc means that a different tire model may react somewhat differently to higher/lower pressures.
I speak from experience when I say run the recommended pressure. When you run low pressures it harms fuel mileage, but more importantly makes it so much easier to break the bead and toss the tire when you hit a paved high-traction surface with too much speed suddenly in a turn. The tire will dismount very easily if you catch it with sufficient force at a low pressure.
Oh, great video by the way- it's fun to explore these topics.
I'm glad you enjoyed the video! Ice is a bitch
I’ve got Nokian R5 winter tires on our Subaru Ascent, door stickeris 36psi. I’ve noticed far better control and traction when they are around 32psi in the winter. When they are around 36-38psi, the lateral grip especially suffers. I also generally run 2psi less in the rear since it’s rarely loaded up to the point where it needs the extra pressure, this is also based off tire chalk tests.
Cool test - using pressure which is recommened by the manufacturer. This year I still have summer tyres on, it isn't even that cold in Europe yet. During winter we got mainly dry or wet roads, sometimes slush snow, whole road with snow only in the mountains. They salt the roads like crazy so rarely getting icy roads - only during night. Had Sottozero 3 before, now Pilot Alpin 5 - these Michelins are much less noisy than Pirellis, I love that about these, don't want to listen to noisy winter tyres.
Not legal atm in Sweden in some places now. If there's snow out now and you use summertires it would be around €100-150 fine. The police could also tell you to tow the car away. But yeah they are busy doing everything else but their damn job 😂
@@_TrueDesire_Sure it depends on the country, some you need to have winter tires, only if there is snow or ice on the whole road, otherwise winter tires are not mandatory. So if it is +5°C and no ice (ice forms at around 0°C or below. So at 8°C there can't be any ice. But I'm going to change tyres in the next week or so anyway, the winter is starting slowly approaching
@@_TrueDesire_If there suddenly starts snowing I simply won't drive for those few hours, even if you won't get fine, worse thing is when you are in a crash, insurance might not pay when you have summer tyres and there are snowy conditions. Sweden is much more north so that is acceptable. I'm down in the central Europe so not much snow anyway...
@user40121 warmer climate.. 😭 I'm NOT jealous at all 🥹
10:25 if you've gotta know! Last winter, with temperatures close to -10°C, my dash showed very low tire pressures, so I inflated them back to the OEM recommendation of 2.6 bar for fuel efficiency or speeds > 160 km/h (front axle, Germany, winter oriented 4 season tire). Unfortunately, this was not ideal for the colder conditions; just 10 meters from home, on a compacted snow-covered uphill right turn, I started sliding backwards. Had to install my tire socks to complete the journey, so close yet so far. My observation has been that, applying the recommended pressure at 20°C ambient seems to cover all scenarios. Since that incident, I adjust the tire pressures by adding or subtracting 0.1 bar for every 5-degree deviation from 20°C. With this approach, the wear and grip has been perfect in every condition. Can't tell whether that applies to all tire-OEM-car combinations, though.
The biggest concern I'd have with low tire pressure is uneven wear of the tread, as TR pointed out. I've got wider meats for my summer tires and I'm getting excessive inside/outside shoulder wear despite inflating 3 to 4 PSI above normal tires on my car. Next summer, I'll be aiming for 6 PSI over stock.
Can you elaborate on the tire pressure at 20 degrees? Is it written in your manual that the tire pressure should be checked at 20 degrees? Does this mean that the winter tire will be severely underinflated at 0 degrees and colder?
When lowering the tire pressure its not for making the contact patch wider but LONGER. To lower the tire pressure to get more traction on loose surfaces like deep snow, mud and loose sand is very old knowledge.
When driving on loose sand, like example a beach, you should always lower the tire pressure for not getting stuck in the sand.
But with normal street tires this is only for emergency use/ short time, because the sidewalls can't handle this over time. With a offroad tire like example a All Terrain or Mud Terrain, you can drive with lowered pressure much longer.
I have Nokian Outpost All Terrain tires on my Land Cruiser and when I'm on a overland roadtrip I lower my tire pressure from 34-35 psi to about 20 psi when going on long distances on bad roads like gravel roads, because of much higher comfort. When going on really bad roads like forest roads its also smart to lower the tire pressure to reduce the risk of puncture a tire on example (sharp) big rocks and roots. When I'm back on normal tarmac roads again, the tire pressure goes back up to the normal 34-35 psi.
Agreed, we drop down to about 20 on gravel mostly for comfort
Brilliant test. Just goes to show that performance in materials technology is never fully predictable, nor are the results necessarily linear. Too many interacting and counteracting factors.
Agreed, The chemical interaction between tire and surface is fascinating and complicated
I live in Finland and I usually run my winter tires maybe 0.5-0.3 bars under recommend pressure and I think that it's good compromise between lost efficiency and traction and if you run too low you will have uneven tire wear also I have done some offroading in deep snow and you need less than 1bar (15psi)
Based on your test, if its snowing, I will let out quite a lot of air right after turning off the highway and into the mountains on my next skiing holiday.
the "floating-on-air" disclaimer 🤣
very informative "review". I'll see if I can apply it my GX470 when I take it out this winter.
Love it! Thanks for posting.
A note - I have a 2021 Jeep Wangler, which should be a great off road/snow/etc vehicle. That would true if it were not for the nannies. In particular the TPMS system, which requires a 38 psi inflation pressure for the tires and it will trigger a flat tire warning at some point in the low 30s. Ugh! That said, based on your test on snow days when I going skiing I’d like to try running them at 25 psi. BTW - BMWs will go into limp-home power mode at pressures below 29 psi. Got to love modern cars.
I did not know that about bmws, that's crazy!
I hate TPMS systems thank god the one in my car doesn't do the limp nonsense just hoping one day the bulb will stop working. My winter tyre wheels will trigger the TPMS system because 1 one the used wheels I bought for it didn't have the sensor, my summer set are fine and are always fitted for inspection anyway.
TPMS settings can be changed with the right software.
Mostly I see the "air down" claims for offroad, not on street, even in winter. I stick with recommended (car door) pressure for my winter tires.
going 0.3bar lower than spec not only gives u grip, also saves your suspension, all new car pressures are made for fuel efficiency crap not longevity
@@shutu6338 Fair point. There is also tire wear to consider. Maybe I should start doing a Chalk test for optimal pressure for tire wear.
I'm a snowboarder driving up to mountain parking lots and I also do Autocross racing- your videos are always Great and I've always wondered about this!!
Can I ask; ideally you want contextualize to your vehicle correct? (ie. 35psi VW Golf tire placard; 20psi best snow performance?)
Would recommend placard -15psi? minimum +10psi? Or how would you apply this to your vehicle/tire setup
Think
That's it. I'm dropping my pressure from F/R 2.6/2.7 to 2.1/2.2 bar 🕺🏼
Just keep an eye on wear. Closely.
But remember that when it gets warmer, the pressure will also get higher! It works both ways!
I think it depends on the snow conditions. On groomed snow, I can see lower pressures being better much like on sand. However, I often drive through deep snow on roads not plowed. Trucks with high aspect ratio tires narrower in width tend to do much better in snow than low aspect ratio tires that are wider. However, I’ve never seen a formal test on this, just talking experience from watching many vehicles over the years. Flotation tends to not be your friend in snow that is 12” or more deep. It would be interesting to see tests on both tire width and tire pressure in deep snow vs. hard packed or groomed snow.
I was asking myself this question few weeks ago. Thank you once again Jonathan !
:D
Interesting fact.
I set of in August from the UK at 2.7 barg in my 295/35/21's.
Temp was about 10 deg C.
Between Cordoba and Sevilla the car started sliding a bit on the motorways.
I stopped to check.
Tyre pressures were 3.5 barg and air temp was 44.5 deg c.
😂😂😂😂
Some years ago, I went to mountains with my BMW 120i that I had that time when I still had RFT tires on it. I got stuck on hill because of someone who put car into snow barrier. I had to stop and wasn't able to get running again. So I decided to flat my back tires, runflats squished and suddenly I could get up the hill to the hotel. Then many people called reception they can't get up to the hotel on that snowy and icy hill. So I used my RWD BMW to bring people up. I think that was the first (and last) time small RWD BMW was used as hotel taxi in winter mountains.
there's a rule of thumb: "if running deflated tires , never travel more than 2x the PSI in MPH" -- so, at 10psi, don't go any faster than 20mph
So if I deflate my tires a few PSI to 30 PSI, then I shouldn’t drive faster than 60 mph? I feel like you just made that up.
Can you do this test with summer tyres to see the effect it has when using them in the snow. This winter test shows that conventional wisdom has always been best when it snows let 10PSI out your tyres. The tyres at 20PSI seemed to be the best all round when all tests are combined.
Thanks for a comprehensive test
I've always been curious, figured it always just depended on the surface your tire was making contact with at any given time. Around 33 PSI is middle of the road tire pressure so likely the most suitable for all scenarios...
Oh well lets see what the video says.
Edit - Man those ice results were unexpected, I may need to try dropping my tire pressure to around 26-27 and see how they hold up. Thanks for always going the extra mile Tyre Reviews!
Without having watched the video yet, I assume it's the golden middle (or how it's expressed in proper English). Let me watch the video now to see if my wild guess is wrong or right 🤓
The flip I would think is from the fact of taking off you're unloading the drive tires, whilst in braking you're loading them. Difference in snow and ice braking I would think is kinda the same theory. In that on the snow there is more of an increase in compression as compared to on ice.
Would be interesting to see the 10psi numbers in an RWD vehicle, bet you're right.
Fun video! I’ve always wondered about this. Very entertaining 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I live in Denmark and have used Dunlop winter tiers for the last 14 years. I drive with 45 psi
I run Nokian WRG4/5 on two larger vehicles.
In the summer I run 35psi
Normal winter pressure is 30psi
With fresh snow I go to 25 psi.
Glad to know that I haven’t been doing this for nothing.
Lower pressure would also require more frequent checks when temp drops. I had a bead let go on a -30F day when I hit a frozen rut as I hadn't checked the pressure since the beginning of winter when it was around freezing. If you have a drastic temp swing down you can lose considerable tire pressure.
I wonder if I should make a short about how much a tire pressure drops.
Well I think it depends. Slush high psi as with new snow. On ice and compact snow low psi
I did always suspect that low pressure tyres would be better in snow. I knew that they would be better in hard packed rough ice or re-frozen snow since they can better mould to the surface. However, the low pressures would certainly be worse on dry days 😊
30psi front 28 rear on winters, -2psi on summers on GR Yaris. All for the max grip! (Cold psi but barely changes during winter)
what i'm taking away from this is, I should try running the jeep's studded snows not at max rating when i'm plowing (+500# on the front, +565# on the back, in weight from the plow and counter weight.) It should give me better traction then.
I would be interested in the same test with summer tyres as we run these all year round
Did I miss what tire size was being tested here? The two Golf Rs in my household are on 18 inch wheels for their winter tires, so dropping pressures is a bit scary from a pothole point of view. I bent a rim beyond repair on a deep highway pothole the winter before last.
Still, this is useful info. I actually got stuck on my steep driveway once when it was ice over. Maybe if I kept a pressure gauge in the car and dropped my tires to 20 psi, I could have made it up.
I run the pressure recommended on the door sticker for the vehicle that I drive seems to work just fine for all conditions. Tire wear is even.
Waoo ..
New video from tyrereviews always fun to watch.. great work bro
When it gets really cold around here (Canadian prairies) you can tell which people have low tyres, the tyres expand in the cold and peel off of the rims, leaving them stuck on the road at the worst time to get stranded.
But wait, you say, things contract in the cold. Well, no, not everything. Both water and rubber expand in the cold.
Thanks Jonathan, consistent with my experience*
HOWEVER aquaplaning and also slushplaning - half molten snow - will become a lot worse with low pressures. So keep this in mind when optimizing air pressures at the beginning and end of winter season.
As it turns out, air pressures becomes lower as it becomes colder so there is a natural progression happening here. So if you set tyre pressures at recommended at indoor temps (15°C warm garage), pressures will be better for snow grip at - 20°C being ~0,4bar lower by just having colder air in there. Nerds like us perhaps lower a little more again like here, 20psi is a bit low for hard driving imho, and also hurts rolling resistance... 25psi?
* see my channel for some driving
Great test, very interesting. If you haven't seen sporting car trials have a google, where they go is truly amazing considering they run standard road tyres, no lsd and rwd drive only. I've watched them drive up muddy hills I literally couldn't climb up. But they do run their tyres at down to 2psi (they're bolted onto the rims)...
2PSI!! wow I'll check it out
Yesterday I was looking for this kind of video...
Leader!
15 psi is still crazy-low for most places. I wouldn't try that except if you're 100% certain you aren't seeing any pavement.
Personally, living in Toronto, Canada, I normally run about 35 psi in winter. This video makes me think I should be doing 25-30psi instead for improved grip in winter conditions(recommended pressure is 32psi all around for all our vehicles). We don't get a ton of snow here - mostly slushy conditions and some icy mornings/evenings with melted and refrozen black ice.