Sure was a slap down, the 1964 Pontiac Banshee never came about due to GM thinking it would move ppl away from buying the Corvette. GM then gave the design to Chevrolet to use as their 3rd gen Corvette. The same happened with the Firebird, every Firebird from 1967 is based off of the Camaro. That was the only way GM would allow Pontiac to put out a pony car.
@@dlm9477 I’m a huge Pontiac fan but I have to set the record straight about this one. When Ford introduced the Mustang it caught GM off guard because the Mustang was the answer to the Plymouth Barracuda and GM was behind. All these pony cars were sporty cars assembled with parts bin parts from other car lines. Initially, in addition to the Chevy Camaro and Pontiac Firebird, Oldsmobile was supposed to have their own F body variant. The Camaro was the first introduced but the Firebird took way longer than anticipated due to DeLorean’s insistence that the Firebird had to be superior to the Camaro in every way. All these delays actually screwed Oldsmobile out of their own version of the F body.
@@benn454 Not really. The Camaro and Firebird was GM’s response to the Ford Mustang. Chevy would have a version as GM’s sales leader and Pontiac would have one as GM’s (supposed) performance division. Oldsmobile was also supposed to have their own F body because their sales were slumping at the time.
Those flip over headlights are right out of the Opel Gt parts bin. I had one back in the day. Everytime I pulled the lever to flip them over I felt like James Bond and imagined they were machine guns or rocket launchers.
Pontiac was a brand at GM that got kicked down every time they had a winner. GM used to outright steal product development from Pontiac just to give the advances to other divisions prior to allowing Pontiac to utilize their own improvements in subsequent model years after they had been marketed and proven by the other divisions.
@@rapid13 That's true but barring Pontiac from using its own researched technology and giving the resource to a much better funded division was commonplace within GM. Making Pontiac seem a lesser vehicle in the GM lineup.
Now I have another dream car on my list. A C3 corvette/Banshee restomod conversion. C3 donor car, custom Pontiac syled wheels, headlights, taillights, and some of other styling changes, turned aluminum dash, etc., and most importantly, a 455 Pontiac engine.
Thank you for this video. It brought back great memories and being educational. I was a teenager, graduating high school in 1964. My friends and I liked the '63 Tempest. But, loved the '64 Pontiacs. My family were always "Chevy" people. Me, I've always been a "Pontiac" person. Owned a few over the years. My two favorites were a 1968 Grand Prix and a 1993 Grand Prix. RIP Pontiac, I still love you.
My dad was a tool and diemaker for Pontiac, from 1968 til 1997. He lived in Pontiac, right by the plant, from 1985 on. I watched Pontiac die, first hand. Now Pontiac the city is slowly beginning to see a recovery.
Bravo. Excellent video. Well researched, good production, no excess fat. I watch a lot of classic car videos, and many times give up halfway through. This one was all meat and no fat. Thank you.
It still hurts my heart to this day that Pontiac was always kept on a short leash by GM and was eventually destroyed. Well, the front of XP-833 always reminds me of the 1963 Lamborghini Prototype 350 GTV, which of course is a good thing in my opinion.
Nothing can be faster than the Corvette, period...! GM has killed quite a few very cool cars because they were faster than the Corvette...! It's sad, but true...! Thanks for sharing... Keep up your awesomeness...
@@PaulKurz-iy7iv To be fair, the Grand National probably helped extend the life of that platform by years. GM was killing off RWD platforms left, right and centre in that era, to the point there was discussion of the F-body going FWD.
Nowadays the people you see driving Corvettes are usually old, white-haired men, it's a grandpa sports car. The new mid-engine Corvettes look too much like Ferraris, how are they at attracting younger drivers?
@@maxbrandt6 They got too damn expensive. They've always been priced twice as much as the pony cars it seems, today that is a big difference than the 60s. A 65 Mustang sold for around 3000 for a GT model where the vette was over 6000, today that Mustang GT is close to 40000 and the vette is almost 90000. It's just out of reach for the young crowd who would drive the car like it should be driven, the Mustang is still in the range of the average buyer for performance that rivals the vette in the right engine package, and with some aftermarket parts will beat that expensive vette. The Camaro is going to be gone soon and maybe the Dodge cars due to government interference with what the market wants, people need to fight for the freedom to choose an enjoyable ride before they disappear for good. You can always get a classic vette for a reasonable price today and enjoy.
Assume management saw it being a competitor to the vette simply by it being half the price and decided to axe it. Imagine the M2 being half price to the M3..
My dad's friend owned a tool and die company that was making molds for model car kits for this car, he has them all in his cellar and hasn't sold a single one. like 300 of them still in the box.
The side lines on the XPs look so much like the 1969 Ponitac Firebird. (I owned one in red.) The chrome front grill and the rear lights are very similar.
Wow, 16,000 views in the first 11 hours! Bravo! Finally getting the attention you deserve. Always a pleasure to watch your videos, glad you've kept up the hard work! Thanks!
this car reminds me strongly of a car called the opel gt made by the german brand adam opel ag in 1968 to 1973...and opel used to be a subsidiary of GM for almost 88 years until they sold to the french motor company psa in 2017...in germany we also called the opel gt "mini corvette"... but i can imagine opel took some inspiration for the gt from this pontiac.
There were a few Opel GT and Manta vehicles in Southern California where I grew up in that era. I don't know how popular these models were in the rest of the US.
@@chairman-jenkem-yogurt ya i lived in so cal in the 80´s and early 90´s before moving back to germany in 96...we were german migrants and my step dad opened a small well running repair shop for european cars and i remember seeing a few german import mantas and gt´s come into the shop to get inspections and such, do to the orange county and anaheim area having a pretty large german community...and i cant tell you how often people came in just to ask what cars these are... my guess is if you saw these cars in the US then mostly in areas with german communities near by since these cars are imports and not the typical kind like porsche, mercedes, and co...you kind of had to be a german culture insider to even know the brand opel...
@@DannyWildmen well if you drove an opal it must have been a real jewel...lol... but if you drove a 1958 opel it was probably a kapitän or olympia and honestly many cars from that era where rust buckets if you did´nt care right for them...cavity sealing with wax and galvanizing body panels was´nt all that common and paint layers where thin in the 50´s so most cars that where exposed to wind and weather year round rusted away within a few years if you had a poor care and maintanence game... and you got to remember 58 was 10 years after ww2 and germany was still rebuilding parts of the country...so they had better to do then produce high quality metal sheets for body panels...at that time many car parts where sourced cheaply from other countries...that and from 56 to 57 german metal industy workers started the longest strike against the bad work conditions in german history...so you truly picked a bad year to drive a car from germany! but that been said you´ve also gotta remember opel was/is no brand like mercedes...opel´s focus was allways to produce affordable cars for the average people and like most cars of that kind they have to save on cost´s somewhere and thats usually the quality of the parts they use!
@@pauls.8748 Grew up on the east coast and old enough to have been around when the Opel GT was new. They weren't what I would call common to see but not that rare either saw plenty of them. I thought they were a mini Corvette back then.
@@stuglenn1112 ya the production numbers of the gt were a little over 100,000 cars, and do to the baby corvette design it caught the eye of americans pretty quick...and actually almost half of all the cars produced got imported to the US and Buick overtook all things marketing and distribution...but concidering the size and population of america then the around 50,000 cars is´nt that big of a number and still made them a pretty rare sight... and i cant speak for the 60´s and 70´s or the east coast...but i know that in the 80´s and 90´s on the west coast these cars became a very rare sight...many did´nt age very well do to rust issues and those that did make it you primarilly saw in areas with german communities who still knew what opel even was.
Cool video > Also John Delorean wanted the 421 as a option too for the Banshee - being lighter then the Vette can you say bye bye Vette on streets and drag strips across the USA and the World 🏁🏆😎
Outstanding video! Truly what might have been. Except GM brass would never have agreed to produce a competitor to their darling Corvette. Instead they essentially took the Banshee from Pontiac and slapped C3 Vette emblems on it. Typical. I'll never forgive GM for shuttering Pontiac and keeping Buick. A tragedy.
@@benn454 I have heard that but, is that really the case in 2023? The affluent Chinese would seem to have moved beyond Buick as the status symbol of wealth and success.
@@msh6865 Recently, yeah. The Chinese car industry is in a much better place than they were back in 2008. Nowadays, the market has shifted to more domestic Chinese marques.
It's been said that when GM axed the idea for the car they allowed Corvette designers to use much of the design to create the C3. SO this car did end up becoming the c3 corvette.
A couple of years ago, Napoli Classics in CT had the coupe for sale. FYI: Every Pontiac engine from the 287 to the 455 used the same outside block dimensions.
@@707x-y6s Agreed. The point being that here and elsewhere writers report, "We can fit a 389 in there." When anywhere a 326 fits, the 389/400/455 will fit. Pontiac already put a 421 in the first gen Tempest.
I have been a Car Person my whole life, and I never seen these Cars. They all were Beautiful. The Cougar II was fantastic. The Banshee was very Interesting. Imagine what they All would have been now... Excellent Video.
The vette is what killed the banshee, the GM auto group was not going to allow a car that even came close to the corvette. The vette had a foothold of followers and that's what sank em, it's that simple.
Pontiac suffered terribly from GM's management. They would not allow Pontiac to use forged connecting rods for most of their engines. This is why Pontiac engines could not be made into drag racing applications. The Armasteel or pearlitic malleable iron rods that they were allowed to use were usually good enough for normal street applications. Such as a 389 engine with only three 2 barrel carburetors. I had two of these rods fail by fatigue fractures after I reused them in a 326 rebuild. About 100,000 miles later. So my standard advice for rebuilding a Pontiac engine is to not reuse the connecting rods, but buy new ones. But the aftermarket suppliers are not beholden to GM management so they can supply forged connecting rods for Pontiac applications. Which might be the way to go if you want a supercharged drag racer or a rebuild that lasts 300,000 miles.
Please tell me more about that. i was wondering why didn't Pontiac used forged connecting rods. you are telling me that Gm management didn't allow pontiac to use forged rods?? i tought it was Pontiac's decision to use cast rods
Excellent capture, thanks, I never knew of the cars. But it enforces this observation: Ever since they've been rolling out concept cars, every single one of them screams: "These are what we're capable of making, but instead - you get the Pinto, Vega and Pacer." Society is retarded by the industrial scale stifling of it's artisans thanks to pusillanimous executives with an over supply of dullness accented by their myopia.
I bought my girst car at 13 years old. Was a 1951 Pontiac Chieftain convertible with a huge straight 8. When I think of what that car would be worth these days, the nausea just sets in
An interesting thought. The block dimensions of the Pontiac V8's from the muscle car years were the same. You could literally remove a 301 Pontiac engine and drop in a 455 and use the same engine mounts. These cars may have started life with a Pontiac 326, but it would have been only a matter of time before they received Ram Air Iv 400's and HO455's.
100% correct. I feel that GM’s 400CI limit in A body cars was to prevent Pontiac from ruling the performance scene at GM. There would have been $0 added to allow Pontiac to install a 421 in the original GTO or the later 428. They finally lifted that for the 1970 model year which was the pinnacle of GM performance and the first year for Pontiac and Buick’s 455. Oldsmobile was given the green light for their 455 for sharing the FWD Toronado with Cadillac in 1968. But Pontiac had stuffed most of their high performance R&D into the 400 because it was the biggest engine allowed into their high performance cars. It always puzzled me as to how the 1969 428 HO had a 390 HP rating but the 455 was only rated at 370 HP in 1970.
1989 Fiero prototype was axed because Chevy executives did not want Corvette competition for a cheaper price. I had an 86 and 87 Fiero GT. The 88 Fiero was the best with new Lotus suspension and other improvements.
My first two cars were Pontiacs. Absolutely loved everything about both of them. My first car in 2008 was a 1998 Firebird and it was an absolute magnet for both women and police, it was a T-top with removable sun roofs on either side. Around 2013 I bought a 2002 Pontiac Bonneville my second car which wasn’t nearly as sleek as the Firebird but was much more comfortable and quick for a full sized sedan 2002. The Bonneville was the group choice for long distance drives and road trips. TLDR; Buy a used Pontiac! You won’t regret it.
My family loved Pontiacs , we had Le Mans,Catalinas,bonnevilles,grand prix’s, loved all of them whoever was in charge of pontiac should have been removed before it folded
The front design reminds me of the first Lamborghini design from Franco Scaglione from 1963 for the 3.5 litre Coupe which was rejected from Feruccio L. It had also hidden front lights with that division…
I remember when my grandparents bought a brand new 1956 Pontiac. I can still smell that new car smell it had. It was a very good car. I've always liked Pontiacs but I never had one. I had mostly Fords.
My friend had a 78' Pontiac LeMans. It had a 3.8 liter 6 cylinder but my buddy told me you could bolt a 400 c.i. V-8 in it no problem. He had that car for years and it was matenence free. Except for oil changes and brakes...
CADILLAC, THE STINGRAY, and the PONTIAC GTO set the bar for auto manufacturers in the 1960s. In 1964 , the FORD MUSTANG had car buyer's taking another look at the Ford lineup.
4:40,... Mustang 1,.. Inline 4 you say,... while showing the V4 that was in the concept car, which came from Ford Germany and was the engine that powered multiple models including the original Transit Van.
"What could have been?" This car should have gone into production. It is stunning. Even though I was not even born at the time of its creation, I would have purchased one if I was. Thanks for creating and posting :) DM.
As a technical point of reference, all the Pontiac V8s of that era came from the so-called "big block" family... even the 326 c.i.d. " Small " V8.....they could all be easily substituted for each other. This is not a common situation....( you research oriented folks, see " small block " vs ." big block" Chevys. Variations in block deck height were the only issue......but they figured it out, spectacularly! Pontiac needed somebody with nerve. The Car Gods sent them Bunkie and John Z. The division survived another 50+ years. I will always miss my tricked out 66 Le Mans....it was ( along with my best friend Charlie's silly guick 69 GTO) the bane of other Levittown street racers existence. Nice job on the video. Thanks.
Pontiac blocks were intermediate size. Bigger than a small block Chevy but smaller than a big block. It is actually closer in size to the SBC. It is like a SBC on steroids. You are partially correct in calling them big blocks. The Oldsmobile and Buick big blocks were basically a tall deck version of their small blocks. In that thinking Pontiac would have only introduced their “small block” in 1977 with the 301.
Thanks for your thoughts. To my best knowledge (admittedly imperfect), I was told that, in the weird universe of GM, the big block/small block issue was a measure of dubious merit, based the bore centers! Huh? Why? Who knows... PS: never laid a wrench on Olds or Buick; not qualified to support or dispute your comment. Good News: all us old motor heads are not, apparently dead. If you are a young gearhead: Welcome aboard!
@@hughbarton5743 I’m far from an expert. I’ve never worked on a Buick V8 or even owned one. I’ve had an Olds 350 and 455, 2 Pontiac 400s and have a 455 on a stand and a TPI Chevy 350. All Pontiacs share the same bore spacing though not sure about the 265 and 301. Also not sure on the Olds and Buick. Obviously the Chevys don’t share the same bore spacing.
I had the pleasure of seeing this car in person at the Iola Wisconsin Old Car Show about 20 years ago. I hope the owner was able to get my drool off the paint, it's truly a work of automotive art.
Pontiac had some amazingly beautiful cars between 1960 and 1967. The 1959 Catalina was a looker too. Then there was the 421SD motor. Aside from women's styles, the 1970's took an aesthetic nose dive. Music, Harley Davidson... just about everything got ugly in the 70's. It was depressing.
I think Pontiac made two fatal mistakes with the Banshee: 1. It was planned to have a V8 option, and 2. the styling looked too much like the C3 Corvette that was coming out a year after they planned their car's release. GM was never going to go for that.
"inspired by" the Corvette? It looks like it actually is just a Corvette with different body work. It literally looks like they gave the trans-am treatment to the Corvette and called it a new car, just like they did with the Camaro to create the firebird. (Speaking of the 2 seater, not the 4 seater) After reading some more about it there is a reason the XP-833 looks almost EXACTLY like a C3 Corvette. When they cancelled the XP-833, they revised the project to become the C3 Corvette for the 1968 model year.
What could have been. I see so many striking design features from the Banshee used on some of Pontiac's more contemporary models, like the 1980's Corvette Stingray, Firebird and Trans Am, especially the tail-lights. This car was absolutely beautiful, but form follows function, and Pontiac/GM made a business decision based upon Pontiac's market, relative to other brands within the GM line-up. She may have cannibalized sales for other GM Models (Corvette), and she certainly wasn't practical. The Banshee may have never been mass-produced, but Pontiac never lost track of their dream to actually produced an inexpensive 2-seat sports car--The Pontiac Fiero. Their target audience was spot on, going after recent college grads with a low-cost, cute, 2-seat roadster. Other than marketing a 2-seat sports car, the Banshee and Fiero had little in common. However, the innovation in design and concept was radical, and bode well for Fiero at first. Mechanical issues, in addition to complete impracticality made the Fiero a dog pretty quickly, no matter how pretty it was.
I saw one that's on display in Milford CT at Napoli Classic Motors a few years ago. I thought it was an early 70's corvette. Until I saw the 1.2 million dollar price tag.
J Patrick Wright is not who called Pontiac an old person’s division and that Pontiac was in trouble, that was my father for whom he was the ghost writer, they were not his words but my father’s. My father is also the one who asked Collins if the engine would fit. I asked Collins why they didn’t use the even larger engine before he passed, it was because they had a lot of the 389s lying around. Collins stated that my father did something bo one else did at the time, let him present the idea himself to senior leadership. He said he appreciated my father for that and that my father was a great mentor of his.
I remember seeing the Pontiac Pegasus up close. That car was a GM/Ferrari project. GM provided the body. Ferrari provided the power and interior. one of the most beautiful cars i've ever seen. only 1 was made.
10:17-10:32 is actually from May, 1957 showing the virtually completed 1959 Chevrolet after several months of a crash re-doing of that year's models, just in the nick of time. So in fact, the '59 in reality is also a '57 Chevy! Having said that, I know it didn't belong in this video, but sure am glad it was. On the Banshee, it was beautiful but I can see would have cut into Corvette sales, and GM mgmt wasn't about to have that. Also, except for Corvette, GM's had a rough go with 2-seaters period (Riatta, Allente) in the late 1900s.
May-Ko youngster. Jeez! They didn’t want to take only so many customers away from the Corvette. Financial decision. Would not have brought in any more money but it would have been more cost to build both the Vette and the competing Pontiac.
Typical Pontiac history be like Design new sports car Cheap to build Capable using a V8 engine GM scared to lose Corvette sales, nerfs the engine or kills the entire project
GM sickens me. Pontiac style was amazing. Deloreon did a great job on those models. I had a 1st Gen Firebird. It was amazing. The Banshee would have been incredible. Shallow minded GM corporate structure killed everything that would revolutionize away from their flagship ultimately killing the best part of it.
When it came to pleasing everyone you can't do it. My favorite car before I left the service in 70 was the Buick GSX. I saved a few bucks my last year overseas and dropped it at the Oldest Buick Dealer in Houston only to be denied the rest of financing by GM. I waited two months and dropped my money on a new 71 Mach 1 and several other new Fords for the next couple years. I actually was hired to work for the Buick Dealer I initially tried to buy my dream car and later actually worked on the very car I was trying to buy. The car was stout and definitely had power and a good ride and above all good looks. In those days you had to drive those cars daily not just race on the weekend or street race. I still wish I could have bought that car, who knows it might have been a keeper because I did have other keepers like my used 68 square back Torino 428 Cobra. That was my all time favorite and it hated to run less than a 100 miles an hour. The torque would pull you back into the seat and was in all sense of the word a real sleeper. That was totally stock nothing changed or modified. There were so many different fine cars in the 70s it was just hard to choose what car you liked most. I still love looking at the restored muscle cars of the 70s. The GSX was probably one of the best buys you could have made in 1970, this is the Yellow I was loving and the only other color was the white. ibb.co/w4cg54G
Glad you jumped into the meat and potatos of the story, unlike the first two videos of yours i watched and dropped out after a few minutes (Nissan being the last and i don't remember the other). Many content creators make the same mistake. Are they short on material to fill a video? Admittedly, i have an affinity to this particular topic but would have bailed on a drawn-out intro. This was a fascinating explanation and entertaining, too, on a subject that i like. Thank you for the effort you put into this!
The six-cylinder version would have made an impression on the market if GM hadn't have killed it. At $2500 base price, it would have poached sales from foreign sports cars while leaving Corvette sales alone. But it looked a little too much like the Corvette. The V8 car would have poached too many Corvette sales. Even though the 326 was no match for Chevy's 327, a 389 or 400 would have fit into the same space.
If GM was beyond passionate with their vehicles. You would think they would have put more horsepower under the Corvette the next model year while apprving the multiple General Motors creatuins for even greater success.
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I think it's pronounced "make-o" shark, not "mack-o" shark.
You're right. Sorry about that.
@@Barchetta No worries. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. Just wanted to let people know.
The Mako Shark Corvette was painted the colors of the Mako Shark.
Frickin shark-nadoes with laser beams on their heads!
If you want the same pronunciation as the fish, try, "Mahko-Shark" (long "a") The reader actually has it pretty close.
Pontiac's entire history seems to be one slap down after another from GM especially when it came to any possible competition with the Corvette.
Till the final slap in 2009
Not just Pontiac. Every GM division had that problem. It's a minor miracle that the Camaro and Firebird ever got greenlit.
Sure was a slap down, the 1964 Pontiac Banshee never came about due to GM thinking it would move ppl away from buying the Corvette. GM then gave the design to Chevrolet to use as their 3rd gen Corvette. The same happened with the Firebird, every Firebird from 1967 is based off of the Camaro. That was the only way GM would allow Pontiac to put out a pony car.
@@dlm9477 I’m a huge Pontiac fan but I have to set the record straight about this one. When Ford introduced the Mustang it caught GM off guard because the Mustang was the answer to the Plymouth Barracuda and GM was behind. All these pony cars were sporty cars assembled with parts bin parts from other car lines. Initially, in addition to the Chevy Camaro and Pontiac Firebird, Oldsmobile was supposed to have their own F body variant. The Camaro was the first introduced but the Firebird took way longer than anticipated due to DeLorean’s insistence that the Firebird had to be superior to the Camaro in every way. All these delays actually screwed Oldsmobile out of their own version of the F body.
@@benn454 Not really. The Camaro and Firebird was GM’s response to the Ford Mustang. Chevy would have a version as GM’s sales leader and Pontiac would have one as GM’s (supposed) performance division. Oldsmobile was also supposed to have their own F body because their sales were slumping at the time.
Rest in peace, Pontiac.
Oldsmobile too !
Those flip over headlights are right out of the Opel Gt parts bin.
I had one back in the day.
Everytime I pulled the lever to flip them over I felt like James Bond and imagined they were machine guns or rocket launchers.
😂😂
They weren't?
It’s actually the other was around.
Pontiac was a brand at GM that got kicked down every time they had a winner. GM used to outright steal product development from Pontiac just to give the advances to other divisions prior to allowing Pontiac to utilize their own improvements in subsequent model years after they had been marketed and proven by the other divisions.
Pontiac is part of GM duh
You’re right
PMD was the
Bastard Stepchild.
@@Floridaredwing25 No doubt about it but the board of directors had pet divisions they favored heavily.
Don’t really need to steal what you already own.
@@rapid13 That's true but barring Pontiac from using its own researched technology and giving the resource to a much better funded division was commonplace within GM. Making Pontiac seem a lesser vehicle in the GM lineup.
Strong Opel GT vibes from the hard top.
Headlights are Opal
The Opel was based on the Corvette as well.
I'd much prefer to have an Opel GT, than a Corvette.
Now I have another dream car on my list. A C3 corvette/Banshee restomod conversion. C3 donor car, custom Pontiac syled wheels, headlights, taillights, and some of other styling changes, turned aluminum dash, etc., and most importantly, a 455 Pontiac engine.
GM made a massive mistake by killing Pontiac.
I agree 👍
It was mostly a condition of the govt bail out in 08 . Thanks Obama.
Thank you for this video. It brought back great memories and being educational. I was a teenager, graduating high school in 1964. My friends and I liked the '63 Tempest. But, loved the '64 Pontiacs. My family were always "Chevy" people. Me, I've always been a "Pontiac" person. Owned a few over the years. My two favorites were a 1968 Grand Prix and a 1993 Grand Prix. RIP Pontiac, I still love you.
My dad was a tool and diemaker for Pontiac, from 1968 til 1997. He lived in Pontiac, right by the plant, from 1985 on. I watched Pontiac die, first hand. Now Pontiac the city is slowly beginning to see a recovery.
Bravo. Excellent video. Well researched, good production, no excess fat. I watch a lot of classic car videos, and many times give up halfway through. This one was all meat and no fat. Thank you.
I miss Pontiac
Mercury and Plymouth too.
I miss oldsmobile
I miss all of them.
1960’s was the most interesting decade for American auto makers.Style and muscle!
A couple decades later Lexus would get praise for equipping the SC400 with double pin door hinges. I guess they liked the Banshee concept, too.
I doubt it. Lexus succeeded.
@@Atomwaffen-y3s Because it was allowed to.
It still hurts my heart to this day that Pontiac was always kept on a short leash by GM and was eventually destroyed. Well, the front of XP-833 always reminds me of the 1963 Lamborghini Prototype 350 GTV, which of course is a good thing in my opinion.
Nothing can be faster than the Corvette, period...! GM has killed quite a few very cool cars because they were faster than the Corvette...! It's sad, but true...! Thanks for sharing... Keep up your awesomeness...
At some point someone shoulda said maybe your just not making the fast car fast enough
Like the Grand National
@@PaulKurz-iy7iv To be fair, the Grand National probably helped extend the life of that platform by years. GM was killing off RWD platforms left, right and centre in that era, to the point there was discussion of the F-body going FWD.
Nowadays the people you see driving Corvettes are usually old, white-haired men, it's a grandpa sports car. The new mid-engine Corvettes look too much like Ferraris, how are they at attracting younger drivers?
@@maxbrandt6 They got too damn expensive.
They've always been priced twice as much as the pony cars it seems, today that is a big difference than the 60s. A 65 Mustang sold for around 3000 for a GT model where the vette was over 6000, today that Mustang GT is close to 40000 and the vette is almost 90000. It's just out of reach for the young crowd who would drive the car like it should be driven, the Mustang is still in the range of the average buyer for performance that rivals the vette in the right engine package, and with some aftermarket parts will beat that expensive vette. The Camaro is going to be gone soon and maybe the Dodge cars due to government interference with what the market wants, people need to fight for the freedom to choose an enjoyable ride before they disappear for good.
You can always get a classic vette for a reasonable price today and enjoy.
Assume management saw it being a competitor to the vette simply by it being half the price and decided to axe it.
Imagine the M2 being half price to the M3..
At 11:00 that Pontiac looks like a full-size Hot Wheels with the red line tires !! I definitely would have bought one of these !!
That car should’ve been produced! It looks beautiful!
They did. Chevy took it for the later Corvette
What amazing concepts , too bad they didn’t come to fruition. Happy New years everyone. Cheers 🇨🇦
Very nice work here. I actually knew someone who told me a story about these 2 cars many years ago. Great video.
My dad's friend owned a tool and die company that was making molds for model car kits for this car, he has them all in his cellar and hasn't sold a single one. like 300 of them still in the box.
The side lines on the XPs look so much like the 1969 Ponitac Firebird. (I owned one in red.) The chrome front grill and the rear lights are very similar.
Wow, 16,000 views in the first 11 hours! Bravo! Finally getting the attention you deserve. Always a pleasure to watch your videos, glad you've kept up the hard work! Thanks!
That thumbnail pic is pretty sweet.
GM duplicated the majority of their vehicles throughout all the GM companies. They didn’t want the Corvette duplicated.
this car reminds me strongly of a car called the opel gt made by the german brand adam opel ag in 1968 to 1973...and opel used to be a subsidiary of GM for almost 88 years until they sold to the french motor company psa in 2017...in germany we also called the opel gt "mini corvette"... but i can imagine opel took some inspiration for the gt from this pontiac.
There were a few Opel GT and Manta vehicles in Southern California where I grew up in that era. I don't know how popular these models were in the rest of the US.
@@chairman-jenkem-yogurt ya i lived in so cal in the 80´s and early 90´s before moving back to germany in 96...we were german migrants and my step dad opened a small well running repair shop for european cars and i remember seeing a few german import mantas and gt´s come into the shop to get inspections and such, do to the orange county and anaheim area having a pretty large german community...and i cant tell you how often people came in just to ask what cars these are...
my guess is if you saw these cars in the US then mostly in areas with german communities near by since these cars are imports and not the typical kind like porsche, mercedes, and co...you kind of had to be a german culture insider to even know the brand opel...
@@DannyWildmen well if you drove an opal it must have been a real jewel...lol...
but if you drove a 1958 opel it was probably a kapitän or olympia and honestly many cars from that era where rust buckets if you did´nt care right for them...cavity sealing with wax and galvanizing body panels was´nt all that common and paint layers where thin in the 50´s so most cars that where exposed to wind and weather year round rusted away within a few years if you had a poor care and maintanence game...
and you got to remember 58 was 10 years after ww2 and germany was still rebuilding parts of the country...so they had better to do then produce high quality metal sheets for body panels...at that time many car parts where sourced cheaply from other countries...that and from 56 to 57 german metal industy workers started the longest strike against the bad work conditions in german history...so you truly picked a bad year to drive a car from germany!
but that been said you´ve also gotta remember opel was/is no brand like mercedes...opel´s focus was allways to produce affordable cars for the average people and like most cars of that kind they have to save on cost´s somewhere and thats usually the quality of the parts they use!
@@pauls.8748 Grew up on the east coast and old enough to have been around when the Opel GT was new. They weren't what I would call common to see but not that rare either saw plenty of them. I thought they were a mini Corvette back then.
@@stuglenn1112 ya the production numbers of the gt were a little over 100,000 cars, and do to the baby corvette design it caught the eye of americans pretty quick...and actually almost half of all the cars produced got imported to the US and Buick overtook all things marketing and distribution...but concidering the size and population of america then the around 50,000 cars is´nt that big of a number and still made them a pretty rare sight...
and i cant speak for the 60´s and 70´s or the east coast...but i know that in the 80´s and 90´s on the west coast these cars became a very rare sight...many did´nt age very well do to rust issues and those that did make it you primarilly saw in areas with german communities who still knew what opel even was.
GM has continually gone down hill from the great 60s and 70s to lost in space.
THE CORVETTE WAS A SACRED COW. On the quiet in GM HQ, no one wanted it seriously challenged or toppled.
Cool video > Also John Delorean wanted the 421 as a option too for the Banshee - being lighter then the Vette can you say bye bye Vette on streets and drag strips across the USA and the World 🏁🏆😎
Outstanding video!
Truly what might have been. Except GM brass would never have agreed to produce a competitor to their darling Corvette. Instead they essentially took the Banshee from Pontiac and slapped C3 Vette emblems on it. Typical.
I'll never forgive GM for shuttering Pontiac and keeping Buick. A tragedy.
China is why. In China, Buicks are the equivalent of a Mercedes or BMW. They were the preferred chariot of the rich and powerful.
@@benn454 I have heard that but, is that really the case in 2023? The affluent Chinese would seem to have moved beyond Buick as the status symbol of wealth and success.
@@msh6865 Recently, yeah. The Chinese car industry is in a much better place than they were back in 2008. Nowadays, the market has shifted to more domestic Chinese marques.
GM didn't produce this but did produce the Opel GT, which shares many styling similarities.
Opel was the German division of GM.
Opel GT was a German GM product
The Opel GT was an excellent car with a 400 stroker, I found that to be true, it's sitting in my garage right now.
I liked the opel GT but it was a little over priced. But it sure was sharp, looked like a mini Corvette! I did drive one an it was fun.
Don’t remember the Opel GT having a V8 in it.
Maybe it's just me, but I see the C3 having taken much of its styling from this, rather than the Mako Shark.
You are correct. The vets parents were Pontiac 😎
It's been said that when GM axed the idea for the car they allowed Corvette designers to use much of the design to create the C3. SO this car did end up becoming the c3 corvette.
I always thought it was the Opel GT the C3 was a copy of, astheticly.
@@topcatcoast2coast579Those came out the same year.
@@number3665axed after stolen is more likely. The banshee is the stingrays.
Reminds me of the AMC Javelin. I find it also curious that the Corvette to a lot of the body stylings of this Pontiac.
A couple of years ago, Napoli Classics in CT had the coupe for sale.
FYI: Every Pontiac engine from the 287 to the 455 used the same outside block dimensions.
326-455 had the same outside dimensions.
301 had a short deck.
326, 350, 389, 400 had 3" mains.
421, 428, 455 had 3.25" mains.
@@707x-y6s Agreed. The point being that here and elsewhere writers report, "We can fit a 389 in there." When anywhere a 326 fits, the 389/400/455 will fit. Pontiac already put a 421 in the first gen Tempest.
@@rondpert5167 Understood..point taken.
I have been a Car Person my whole life, and I never seen these Cars. They all were Beautiful. The Cougar II was fantastic. The Banshee was very Interesting. Imagine what they All would have been now... Excellent Video.
I've seen the Banshee. It's currently owned by a classic car dealer in CT.
5:41 the Metcury concept is Fvcken Fantastic !! GM stole it for mk 2 Camaro ! I love it Cheers from New Zealand 🇳🇿
Imo one of the best researched and video about Pontiac no bs just facts OUTSTANDING VIDEO
This Ford at 5:17 sure does have a lot of Corvette-esque features from that top down view.
Looks nice, kind of like a weird love child between a Firebird and an Opel GT.
Surely there lies the inspiration for the smaller, European version, the Opel GT. Just look at that frontal treatment at 13/;54 !
Great video, thanks.
The vette is what killed the banshee, the GM auto group was not going to allow a car that even came close to the corvette. The vette had a foothold of followers and that's what sank em, it's that simple.
General Motors Holden’s made the Torana GTR-X concept/prototype using the Torana platform they produced a very similar product.
Pontiac suffered terribly from GM's management. They would not allow Pontiac to use forged connecting rods for most of their engines. This is why Pontiac engines could not be made into drag racing applications. The Armasteel or pearlitic malleable iron rods that they were allowed to use were usually good enough for normal street applications. Such as a 389 engine with only three 2 barrel carburetors. I had two of these rods fail by fatigue fractures after I reused them in a 326 rebuild. About 100,000 miles later. So my standard advice for rebuilding a Pontiac engine is to not reuse the connecting rods, but buy new ones.
But the aftermarket suppliers are not beholden to GM management so they can supply forged connecting rods for Pontiac applications. Which might be the way to go if you want a supercharged drag racer or a rebuild that lasts 300,000 miles.
Please tell me more about that. i was wondering why didn't Pontiac used forged connecting rods. you are telling me that Gm management didn't allow pontiac to use forged rods?? i tought it was Pontiac's decision to use cast rods
@@jaskopeter813I’ve never heard anyone other than this guy claim that daddy GM made that decision, I’ve always known that as a Pontiac misstep.
Excellent capture, thanks, I never knew of the cars. But it enforces this observation: Ever since they've been rolling out concept cars, every single one of them screams: "These are what we're capable of making, but instead - you get the Pinto, Vega and Pacer." Society is retarded by the industrial scale stifling of it's artisans thanks to pusillanimous executives with an over supply of dullness accented by their myopia.
Pusillanimous...now there's a word one doesn't see every day. Very apropos.
Roche had his head where the sun did not shine.
I bought my girst car at 13 years old. Was a 1951 Pontiac Chieftain convertible with a huge straight 8. When I think of what that car would be worth these days, the nausea just sets in
An interesting thought. The block dimensions of the Pontiac V8's from the muscle car years were the same. You could literally remove a 301 Pontiac engine and drop in a 455 and use the same engine mounts. These cars may have started life with a Pontiac 326, but it would have been only a matter of time before they received Ram Air Iv 400's and HO455's.
100% correct. I feel that GM’s 400CI limit in A body cars was to prevent Pontiac from ruling the performance scene at GM. There would have been $0 added to allow Pontiac to install a 421 in the original GTO or the later 428. They finally lifted that for the 1970 model year which was the pinnacle of GM performance and the first year for Pontiac and Buick’s 455. Oldsmobile was given the green light for their 455 for sharing the FWD Toronado with Cadillac in 1968. But Pontiac had stuffed most of their high performance R&D into the 400 because it was the biggest engine allowed into their high performance cars. It always puzzled me as to how the 1969 428 HO had a 390 HP rating but the 455 was only rated at 370 HP in 1970.
That is NOT true. The 326-455 were the same the 301 was NOT. smaller block. lower deck height and narrower intake area.
There was a Pontiac version of the Vette at the Gilmore Car Museum, north of Kalamazoo, Mi.
Dear Barchetta, these views are reflective of the quality of your videos, please keep going!
To not mention the Buick Opel GT in all of this is just unconscionable.
1989 Fiero prototype was axed because Chevy executives did not want Corvette competition for a cheaper price. I had an 86 and 87 Fiero GT. The 88 Fiero was the best with new Lotus suspension and other improvements.
My first car was a '75 Formula Firebird. It is funny how attached you can become to a car. I miss it to this day.
$180K is a drop in the bucket of a current Automotive executive salary.
Is it possible, that the Banshee concept was inspiration for the Opel GT? Looks an awful like it. Beautiful cars.
I think Mr Collins was one of my customers in 90. Pest control at that time in West Central Fl. @ 13:58 I saw the model of that on his book shelf.
My first two cars were Pontiacs. Absolutely loved everything about both of them. My first car in 2008 was a 1998 Firebird and it was an absolute magnet for both women and police, it was a T-top with removable sun roofs on either side. Around 2013 I bought a 2002 Pontiac Bonneville my second car which wasn’t nearly as sleek as the Firebird but was much more comfortable and quick for a full sized sedan 2002. The Bonneville was the group choice for long distance drives and road trips.
TLDR; Buy a used Pontiac! You won’t regret it.
My family loved Pontiacs , we had Le Mans,Catalinas,bonnevilles,grand prix’s, loved all of them whoever was in charge of pontiac should have been removed before it folded
Great Documentary i remember watching this back in my youth years thanks for sharing this video 😊
The front design reminds me of the first Lamborghini design from Franco Scaglione from 1963 for the 3.5 litre Coupe which was rejected from Feruccio L. It had also hidden front lights with that division…
Just what I thought
I remember when my grandparents bought a brand new 1956 Pontiac. I can still smell that new car smell it had. It was a very good car. I've always liked Pontiacs but I never had one. I had mostly Fords.
My friend had a 78' Pontiac LeMans. It had a 3.8 liter 6 cylinder but my buddy told me you could bolt a 400 c.i. V-8 in it no problem. He had that car for years and it was matenence free. Except for oil changes and brakes...
CADILLAC, THE STINGRAY, and the PONTIAC GTO set the bar for auto manufacturers in the 1960s.
In 1964 , the FORD MUSTANG had car buyer's taking another look at the Ford lineup.
4:40,... Mustang 1,.. Inline 4 you say,... while showing the V4 that was in the concept car, which came from Ford Germany and was the engine that powered multiple models including the original Transit Van.
"What could have been?" This car should have gone into production. It is stunning. Even though I was not even born at the time of its creation, I would have purchased one if I was. Thanks for creating and posting :) DM.
@@karlwithak. Yes, very sad.
As a technical point of reference, all the Pontiac V8s of that era came from the so-called "big block" family... even the 326 c.i.d. " Small " V8.....they could all be easily substituted for each other. This is not a common situation....( you research oriented folks, see " small block " vs ." big block" Chevys. Variations in block deck height were the only issue......but they figured it out, spectacularly!
Pontiac needed somebody with nerve. The Car Gods sent them Bunkie and John Z. The division survived another 50+ years.
I will always miss my tricked out 66 Le Mans....it was ( along with my best friend Charlie's silly guick 69 GTO) the bane of other Levittown street racers existence.
Nice job on the video. Thanks.
Pontiac blocks were intermediate size. Bigger than a small block Chevy but smaller than a big block. It is actually closer in size to the SBC. It is like a SBC on steroids. You are partially correct in calling them big blocks. The Oldsmobile and Buick big blocks were basically a tall deck version of their small blocks. In that thinking Pontiac would have only introduced their “small block” in 1977 with the 301.
Thanks for your thoughts.
To my best knowledge (admittedly imperfect), I was told that, in the weird universe of GM, the big block/small block issue was
a measure of dubious merit, based the bore centers!
Huh? Why? Who knows...
PS: never laid a wrench on Olds or Buick; not qualified to support or dispute your comment.
Good News: all us old motor heads are not, apparently dead.
If you are a young gearhead:
Welcome aboard!
@@hughbarton5743 I’m far from an expert. I’ve never worked on a Buick V8 or even owned one. I’ve had an Olds 350 and 455, 2 Pontiac 400s and have a 455 on a stand and a TPI Chevy 350. All Pontiacs share the same bore spacing though not sure about the 265 and 301. Also not sure on the Olds and Buick. Obviously the Chevys don’t share the same bore spacing.
I had the pleasure of seeing this car in person at the Iola Wisconsin Old Car Show about 20 years ago. I hope the owner was able to get my drool off the paint, it's truly a work of automotive art.
Nice presentation, informative, well done!
Thanks. I recognize several design elements that made it into my '68 Firebird. First car will always be my favorite. ;^)
Pontiac had some amazingly beautiful cars between 1960 and 1967. The 1959 Catalina was a looker too. Then there was the 421SD motor.
Aside from women's styles, the 1970's took an aesthetic nose dive. Music, Harley Davidson... just about everything got ugly in the 70's. It was depressing.
Punk rock, Martha Quinn, MTV and Max Headroom pulled us out of the crapper.
I'm totally with you on that. 😔
Beautiful sports cars. We did get the more expensive Corvette and Pontiac's sports commuter car.
I think Pontiac made two fatal mistakes with the Banshee: 1. It was planned to have a V8 option, and 2. the styling looked too much like the C3 Corvette that was coming out a year after they planned their car's release. GM was never going to go for that.
"inspired by" the Corvette? It looks like it actually is just a Corvette with different body work. It literally looks like they gave the trans-am treatment to the Corvette and called it a new car, just like they did with the Camaro to create the firebird. (Speaking of the 2 seater, not the 4 seater)
After reading some more about it there is a reason the XP-833 looks almost EXACTLY like a C3 Corvette. When they cancelled the XP-833, they revised the project to become the C3 Corvette for the 1968 model year.
What could have been. I see so many striking design features from the Banshee used on some of Pontiac's more contemporary models, like the 1980's Corvette Stingray, Firebird and Trans Am, especially the tail-lights. This car was absolutely beautiful, but form follows function, and Pontiac/GM made a business decision based upon Pontiac's market, relative to other brands within the GM line-up. She may have cannibalized sales for other GM Models (Corvette), and she certainly wasn't practical. The Banshee may have never been mass-produced, but Pontiac never lost track of their dream to actually produced an inexpensive 2-seat sports car--The Pontiac Fiero. Their target audience was spot on, going after recent college grads with a low-cost, cute, 2-seat roadster. Other than marketing a 2-seat sports car, the Banshee and Fiero had little in common. However, the innovation in design and concept was radical, and bode well for Fiero at first. Mechanical issues, in addition to complete impracticality made the Fiero a dog pretty quickly, no matter how pretty it was.
4:00 Man thanks for the video, it reminds me my red 2207 Pontiac Soltice, but more vintage that I like it ❤
What great cars those could gave been!
Nissan and Toyota should declare James Roche a saint
So it's basically a 1968 corvette concept car.
I saw one that's on display in Milford CT at Napoli Classic Motors a few years ago. I thought it was an early 70's corvette. Until I saw the 1.2 million dollar price tag.
J Patrick Wright is not who called Pontiac an old person’s division and that Pontiac was in trouble, that was my father for whom he was the ghost writer, they were not his words but my father’s. My father is also the one who asked Collins if the engine would fit. I asked Collins why they didn’t use the even larger engine before he passed, it was because they had a lot of the 389s lying around.
Collins stated that my father did something bo one else did at the time, let him present the idea himself to senior leadership. He said he appreciated my father for that and that my father was a great mentor of his.
So much Opel GT in there just like a C3 'vette.
Basically Pontiac innovated, got told no you cannot have this and it was given to Chevrolet.
I remember seeing the Pontiac Pegasus up close. That car was a GM/Ferrari project. GM provided the body. Ferrari provided the power and interior. one of the most beautiful cars i've ever seen. only 1 was made.
Pontiac was a killer in Nascar in the early 60's especially with Glen "Fireball" Roberts until GM banned factory participation.
Where are these two cars now I would love to see them you never said where they went or where they are stored
Good to see the Banshee get some attention. Great looking car!
10:17-10:32 is actually from May, 1957 showing the virtually completed 1959 Chevrolet after several months of a crash re-doing of that year's models, just in the nick of time. So in fact, the '59 in reality is also a '57 Chevy! Having said that, I know it didn't belong in this video, but sure am glad it was. On the Banshee, it was beautiful but I can see would have cut into Corvette sales, and GM mgmt wasn't about to have that. Also, except for Corvette, GM's had a rough go with 2-seaters period (Riatta, Allente) in the late 1900s.
Thanks for that! I appreciate the history!
how about a deep dive on the cougar 2? i built a model of it when i was a kid. total crime that it was never made.
Agreed it was... Beautiful
May-Ko youngster. Jeez! They didn’t want to take only so many customers away from the Corvette. Financial decision. Would not have brought in any more money but it would have been more cost to build both the Vette and the competing Pontiac.
Typical Pontiac history be like
Design new sports car
Cheap to build
Capable using a V8 engine
GM scared to lose Corvette sales, nerfs the engine or kills the entire project
GM sickens me. Pontiac style was amazing. Deloreon did a great job on those models. I had a 1st Gen Firebird. It was amazing. The Banshee would have been incredible. Shallow minded GM corporate structure killed everything that would revolutionize away from their flagship ultimately killing the best part of it.
The unofficial "protect the Corvette at all costs" policy is likely still with GM today.
I think Pontiac should come back as a young, fun car brand. Like Scion originally was.
When it came to pleasing everyone you can't do it. My favorite car before I left the service in 70 was the Buick GSX. I saved a few bucks my last year overseas and dropped it at the Oldest Buick Dealer in Houston only to be denied the rest of financing by GM. I waited two months and dropped my money on a new 71 Mach 1 and several other new Fords for the next couple years. I actually was hired to work for the Buick Dealer I initially tried to buy my dream car and later actually worked on the very car I was trying to buy. The car was stout and definitely had power and a good ride and above all good looks. In those days you had to drive those cars daily not just race on the weekend or street race. I still wish I could have bought that car, who knows it might have been a keeper because I did have other keepers like my used 68 square back Torino 428 Cobra. That was my all time favorite and it hated to run less than a 100 miles an hour. The torque would pull you back into the seat and was in all sense of the word a real sleeper. That was totally stock nothing changed or modified. There were so many different fine cars in the 70s it was just hard to choose what car you liked most. I still love looking at the restored muscle cars of the 70s. The GSX was probably one of the best buys you could have made in 1970, this is the Yellow I was loving and the only other color was the white.
ibb.co/w4cg54G
The SP5 was a beautiful concept that likely would have taken market share from the Corvette. GM would not allow that to happen.
Glad you jumped into the meat and potatos of the story, unlike the first two videos of yours i watched and dropped out after a few minutes (Nissan being the last and i don't remember the other). Many content creators make the same mistake. Are they short on material to fill a video? Admittedly, i have an affinity to this particular topic but would have bailed on a drawn-out intro. This was a fascinating explanation and entertaining, too, on a subject that i like. Thank you for the effort you put into this!
The six-cylinder version would have made an impression on the market if GM hadn't have killed it. At $2500 base price, it would have poached sales from foreign sports cars while leaving Corvette sales alone. But it looked a little too much like the Corvette. The V8 car would have poached too many Corvette sales. Even though the 326 was no match for Chevy's 327, a 389 or 400 would have fit into the same space.
GM will do anything to keep the corvette as the flagship
If GM was beyond passionate with their vehicles. You would think they would have put more horsepower under the Corvette the next model year while apprving the multiple General Motors creatuins for even greater success.
Those 2 prototypes would b priceless 2day! 👍🤔