Man I swear I smoke a blunt drink a beer an sit here in the garage an listen to someone understand something like this an love it. U get into this shit like I do stuff. Try an figure every damn thing there is to figure out about it. Keep it up man.
I love these vids , the knowledge and history you share . It's like having a extremely (relatively) young great granddaddy of car audio . I'm 42 , so I came up through these times and the insider info you have to offer is amazing . Thanks
I love it when the underground busts out with these super techy, informational, nerdy videos!..good shyte man...you're brother already exposed you patrick..its no secret..in the words of Huey,..it's hip to be square!
At a dealer training at the time, RF was promoting that DSM did indeed allow them to lower costs but also, because each individual part was considerably cheaper than a comparable through-hole part, they could use tighter tolerance parts and discard those outside of whatever tolerance they set. Did it make any difference? Who knows, but it was a good story to tell customers.
Personal preference. All speakers do the exact same thing. Convert electrical energy into acoustical energy. It's like people comparing cars and engine designs. Whatever floats your boat. Roll with it.
Also, when Rockford went from pigtail punch amps to the hd ones. I sold a lot of them in Christiansburg Virginia at custom auto sounds and even then, the biggest thing that changed is no wires inside the amp as well as all that you mentioned . And they did indeed sound different in sq installs. Critical listening , similar but definitely different. Then came the Phoenix gold ms amps that also have their own sonic signature. I recall Phoenix amps where a bit more midrange happy.
I loved my Brahma MKII 15, and I have a TC Sounds 5200 18 I’m going to use in a Box pwk designed for me. My last setup was 2 DD 9510’s. I need to put another setup together because I really miss the Bass. Never pay retail though, there is always a way to get things at a reasonable cost.
I Have The RE Audio XXX12S (pi magnet version) That Has A Very Thick Top Plate. This Would Be Under Hung XBL If They Didn't Use Such A Long Coil. It's Like They Kept The Thick Top Plate To Represent Thier Old XXX12 XBL Subs Legacy haha.
Best sub I've ever owned was my 12" Eclipse SW8200. It uses a 3" LMS CCAW coil. With a 3dB bump at 20hz in a 1.7cuft sealed box it was awesome, I loved having a hatch so I could rear it directly. I even ran it inside when I had no car. I stupidly thought a Rockford Elite T20001bD was a smart amp to pair it with after running for like 10+ years on sensible amps like the the Rockford Elite T8004 and Alpine PDR-M65. I still have it and I wish I could fix it. The coil didn't "explode", more like in 1 spot the wire has split, or broken. You can't solder this CCAW crap or it probably would have been an easy dodgy fix. Now I'm using a HCCA 12". It's kinda cool, but not really. The sensitivity is just stupid. Running 3kw it is about as loud as a my junky Clarion 12 in a 1\2" particle board prefab box running 600wrms. But the HCCA weighs 75lbs, and it took everything that my Vulkan 8k had to give before the power supply section exploded, thats unreal for a 12"
@@RobotUnderground okay, just got really confused when my options for getting a refurbished sub are 4 or 8 layer Dual 2 and Dual 4 coils and stainless steel from Dual .7 to Dual 0.25 coils.
PPI fell down an outhouse pit in the 2000's. From top of the line to garbage. I sent them an email that was circulated to what I think was every department head in the company. the CC list was massive on the guy's reply. But, in short, PPI is dead.
If 6 or 7.5 inch coils were so great why wouldn't everyone use them? How are you going to have enough spider/suspension to create any real excursion with a 7.5 inch coil? 15 inch spider? So 18" subs or larger and spend an a$$ load of money on tooling baskets and then you have the shear weight of the former and coil windings. Then you need huge magnets to move that mass and have a magnet large enough to make it happen. Total gimmick. The Rockford mack daddy they have that has a five inch coil and a baby neo magnet burn up faster than a sparkler. Plus it looks like an ugly ice cream cone. Useless sub. Even Steve Meade the Rockford pushing whore buit a box with two and made one video with it and it disappeared. Replaced by Pride twelves I believe and was actually impressive. Two twelves destroyed the Rockford 19s. Obscenely priced ice-cream cone subs. Seen four at an SPL Competition and 3 seconds they were on fire. Did a blazing 152db. Absolute joke. Just like a baby Y38 ferrite magnets can destroy a ginormous ass Y32 magnet sub but people get fooled by the big booty sub thinking bigger has to be better. Marketing 101.
Neither. It just is. They probably did that to save money. Not sure that's a good idea on your most awesome sub... But I'm just some jerk making stuff in his garage.
@@RobotUnderground for real underhung is not cheaper to make,it needs extra work,extra power motor,the way spider glued and to ensure that xmax correct,that build is more complicated,already learned about underhung
Wow! A lot to cover here. First of all, you said the XBL^2 subs weren't actually 32mm but only 3mm? I can assure you the Xmax on the Adire Tumult was 32mm one way and independently verified via DUMAX. And they never suffered from low BL. They had as much BL as was needed for the entire design. As for distortion; Dr. Klippel used to have some audio files on his website where one would have .5% distortion and the other had 20% distortion. The .5% sounded horrible while the 20% was barely noticeable. This was because total distortion isn't an indicator of how bad something will sound. It is the spectrum of the distortion. Odd order harmonic distortion sounds worse than even order distortion IIRC. Most overhung motors have a very parabolic BL curve which greatly increases 3rd order harmonic distortion. The flatter curve doesn't have that problem. Granted, this makes way more of a difference in the non-bass frequencies.
As an aside; before the XBL^2 patent was issued a bunch of us on a forum were trying to figure out ways to create a flat BL curve. I e-mailed Dan and suggested an hourglass shaped winding to counter the parabolic curve. He said him and David Hyre had considered that but quickly put it aside due to all the engineering problems it would cause. He said the XLB^2 design was far more elegant. I had to agree when they released the design to the public. I thought it funny when I saw TC Sounds release that same design later on. Please note, I'm not claiming he got that idea from me. Just that it was an obvious solution. I should also probably note that I went on to work for Dan at Adire Audio a year later. So I may be a bit biased.
Last time I heard from you, you were mad that I "stole" your Brahma excursion video. I just reposted it and it got popular. I remember downloading it from the Adire site or ROE. Meh. I also remember you talking LOTS OF SHIT, about using longer coils on the XBL motors... even after I'd talk to Dan about it and then did experiments on my own. The video is just my experience and my opinions. You're welcome to have your own channel and state your own opinions. I just ask that you be nice in the comments.
Hi there. So the dsm stuff is misleading to say that thru hole and surface mount is the same. No, not really. Same values. Same function. Yes. Sound the same, no. Not really. Matter of fact , Paul at ps audio answered this very well in a recent episode of ohms laws that he does. Me personally, a point to point tube amplifier even sounds a tad different that a pcb design using the same parts other than the pcb. Been there, heard that, and there are differences in the audio performance of all parts. Hard to be Apple to Apple when compared
@@RobotUnderground its a placebo thing or a vehicle going a different speed window up or down ambient noise like rush hour or nyc streets then corn fields. Im agreeing w you pat. Surface mount design of all components only benifited cost of production and possibly overall size. Reality might show the non smd having more surface area and cooling better. Smd won for 2 reasons at that....less cooling means shorter lifespan and cop savings.
Ya I knew you were knee deep in building for your peeps. Great vid as always. Can there be to much BL can magnets get so strong they’d pull coils apart?? I’m not a fan of loud bass I like low tuning 30-20hz and you’ve already explained how it’s kinda a waste and there are better ways to experience those frequencies BUT I still will tune my box to 25hz till I get bored with it and tune higher later on. But to me there’s a market for subs more suited to dumb low tuning and the enclosure doing most of the work. And I love how all these audio companies will sell all types of equipment EXEPT batteries and alternators and how most fan boys will only talk about there subs and amps. I’d rather talk about power supply and how it’ll be divided between the amplifiers being used and how much room available for the enclosure and how much hacking,bracing and big gap filler will be needed to contain serious bass. But hey if someone want to give me money just for equipment that they don’t understand well... and till this day I really don’t run fuses I don’t crank on my set up so hard so often that I feel it needed though I do plan on doing so more for looks and I don’t dip lower then 13.4 I rest at 14.7. Star-Patric Star.
Yes, you see that on the TC 5200 motor. The box requirement shrinks. That's why XBL or LMS are great for mids and tweeters instead. That's where you have an excess of BL and you can hear the difference in distortion. Bass is so hard to tell distortion. Everyone just loves the feel of it.
Do you remember the Audiomoble Mass12? The dude that ran that company used to stay in audio forums saying his underhug sub was better than ever other design. It was so annoying
Mover... made an ass of himself talking about "topography" of his subwoofers. Hard working guy, I met several times, but an apologist to the Nth degree. Wiggins wrecked him, he never recove...
Clear coil glue has less temp handling then black glue with that hernon coil bonding spec sheets will show this so a wet wound baked each layer in the autoclave has temp advantages but I can't say if the lower temp glue is enough temp handling in sub application.
Look at the REVOLUTIONARY square magnet EMF Ermagerd. I call it ermaturd. I sent him a picture of a MTX square magnet and a picture of a square magnet out of a 50s Chevrolet pickup and showed him revolutionary. Banned immediately.
If these motor topologies were any good then we would see them in pro audio where all the money is. We don't. Overhung is the most common, and some of the higher end drivers use split windings. LMS is garbage, which is why the company went out of business and most of the drivers ended up broken.
This is just wrong completely you obviously don't have any transducer engineering experience underhung will have lower distortion up to xmax while allso lower inductance due to smaller coil and lower moveing mass u can gain the bl loss and power handling back with a flatwound coil xbl2 has low distortion but is inefficient same with split coil both have low distortion low inductance but low sensitivity is designs that need higher efficiency use underhung those that don't need the efficiency use xbl2 or split Coil overhung is the cheapest and highest distortion of them all if your talking about well implemented versions of every motor type sure a well implemented overhung vs a poor implemented underhung would be better this is why accuton scanspeak 12mu 18wu use underhung much more linear bl over stroke vs a bell curve of the overhung
Man I swear I smoke a blunt drink a beer an sit here in the garage an listen to someone understand something like this an love it. U get into this shit like I do stuff. Try an figure every damn thing there is to figure out about it. Keep it up man.
I love these vids , the knowledge and history you share . It's like having a extremely (relatively) young great granddaddy of car audio . I'm 42 , so I came up through these times and the insider info you have to offer is amazing . Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
I love it when the underground busts out with these super techy, informational, nerdy videos!..good shyte man...you're brother already exposed you patrick..its no secret..in the words of Huey,..it's hip to be square!
At a dealer training at the time, RF was promoting that DSM did indeed allow them to lower costs but also, because each individual part was considerably cheaper than a comparable through-hole part, they could use tighter tolerance parts and discard those outside of whatever tolerance they set. Did it make any difference? Who knows, but it was a good story to tell customers.
lol. Yeah. China wasn't ready for the big time yet and it allowed them to keep assembly in the Tempe building for another 20 years.
Personal preference. All speakers do the exact same thing. Convert electrical energy into acoustical energy. It's like people comparing cars and engine designs. Whatever floats your boat. Roll with it.
Also, when Rockford went from pigtail punch amps to the hd ones. I sold a lot of them in Christiansburg Virginia at custom auto sounds and even then, the biggest thing that changed is no wires inside the amp as well as all that you mentioned . And they did indeed sound different in sq installs. Critical listening , similar but definitely different. Then came the Phoenix gold ms amps that also have their own sonic signature. I recall Phoenix amps where a bit more midrange happy.
I’m just learning this is fascinating
I loved my Brahma MKII 15, and I have a TC Sounds 5200 18 I’m going to use in a Box pwk designed for me. My last setup was 2 DD 9510’s. I need to put another setup together because I really miss the Bass. Never pay retail though, there is always a way to get things at a reasonable cost.
I see TC sounds mention LMS... thank you for the explanation ☺️ Buddy... Overhung on riods 😉
I Have The RE Audio XXX12S (pi magnet version) That Has A Very Thick Top Plate. This Would Be Under Hung XBL If They Didn't Use Such A Long Coil. It's Like They Kept The Thick Top Plate To Represent Thier Old XXX12 XBL Subs Legacy haha.
Yes, new owner is just there to cash in.
How do you find the over hung point, sir?
ruclips.net/video/EcDbtGgkPSw/видео.html
Another great informative video from obi ohm kenobi
Glad you enjoyed it
Fun fact audiobahn made awp compression piston subs... Had a couple they hit really different
lol. If you say so.
Never said good just different... Way to punchy not enough wiggle wiggle but none the less different
Best woofer school eva!! 😂😂😂😂
Best sub I've ever owned was my 12" Eclipse SW8200. It uses a 3" LMS CCAW coil. With a 3dB bump at 20hz in a 1.7cuft sealed box it was awesome, I loved having a hatch so I could rear it directly. I even ran it inside when I had no car. I stupidly thought a Rockford Elite T20001bD was a smart amp to pair it with after running for like 10+ years on sensible amps like the the Rockford Elite T8004 and Alpine PDR-M65. I still have it and I wish I could fix it. The coil didn't "explode", more like in 1 spot the wire has split, or broken. You can't solder this CCAW crap or it probably would have been an easy dodgy fix. Now I'm using a HCCA 12". It's kinda cool, but not really. The sensitivity is just stupid. Running 3kw it is about as loud as a my junky Clarion 12 in a 1\2" particle board prefab box running 600wrms. But the HCCA weighs 75lbs, and it took everything that my Vulkan 8k had to give before the power supply section exploded, thats unreal for a 12"
It's not going to have any 'bump' in a sealed box, nor at 20Hz. Good looking sub though. Light coil with soft suspension like JL and Rockford.
So I’ve heard about Copper vs Aluminum VCs but what about stainless steel coils? Google isn’t really helping either.
That's stainless former. Nothing special about that. The wire is still enameled copper or aluminum
@@RobotUnderground okay, just got really confused when my options for getting a refurbished sub are 4 or 8 layer Dual 2 and Dual 4 coils and stainless steel from Dual .7 to Dual 0.25 coils.
@@skyblockjake I understand. They don't make it easy. Text me direct and maybe I can help. 6023126504
PPI fell down an outhouse pit in the 2000's. From top of the line to garbage. I sent them an email that was circulated to what I think was every department head in the company. the CC list was massive on the guy's reply.
But, in short, PPI is dead.
Been dead since 2003 when the parent company went belly up... But I got my start from that bankruptcy
Once again, good content! What are your opinions on the Cerwin Vega Strokers, both old and new?
Expensive and don't deliver on their hype
@@RobotUnderground Thank you!
What about William Hung?
She does bang.
Hey brother so what do you make of these new Memphis ViV14 sixfive 14in woofers that have 7.5in coils in them???
Throw in the trash or break down the motor and re-machine the steel to something reasonable. No need for coils that big. Gimmick
If 6 or 7.5 inch coils were so great why wouldn't everyone use them? How are you going to have enough spider/suspension to create any real excursion with a 7.5 inch coil? 15 inch spider? So 18" subs or larger and spend an a$$ load of money on tooling baskets and then you have the shear weight of the former and coil windings. Then you need huge magnets to move that mass and have a magnet large enough to make it happen. Total gimmick. The Rockford mack daddy they have that has a five inch coil and a baby neo magnet burn up faster than a sparkler. Plus it looks like an ugly ice cream cone. Useless sub. Even Steve Meade the Rockford pushing whore buit a box with two and made one video with it and it disappeared. Replaced by Pride twelves I believe and was actually impressive. Two twelves destroyed the Rockford 19s. Obscenely priced ice-cream cone subs. Seen four at an SPL Competition and 3 seconds they were on fire. Did a blazing 152db. Absolute joke. Just like a baby Y38 ferrite magnets can destroy a ginormous ass Y32 magnet sub but people get fooled by the big booty sub thinking bigger has to be better. Marketing 101.
I got x2c 24 inch sub b2 audio,its underhung
Its good or bad?
Neither. It just is. They probably did that to save money. Not sure that's a good idea on your most awesome sub... But I'm just some jerk making stuff in his garage.
@@RobotUnderground for real underhung is not cheaper to make,it needs extra work,extra power motor,the way spider glued and to ensure that xmax correct,that build is more complicated,already learned about underhung
@@makskoma Steel and ferrite are SUPER cheap. The copper on the coil is expensive.
Wow! A lot to cover here. First of all, you said the XBL^2 subs weren't actually 32mm but only 3mm? I can assure you the Xmax on the Adire Tumult was 32mm one way and independently verified via DUMAX. And they never suffered from low BL. They had as much BL as was needed for the entire design. As for distortion; Dr. Klippel used to have some audio files on his website where one would have .5% distortion and the other had 20% distortion. The .5% sounded horrible while the 20% was barely noticeable. This was because total distortion isn't an indicator of how bad something will sound. It is the spectrum of the distortion. Odd order harmonic distortion sounds worse than even order distortion IIRC. Most overhung motors have a very parabolic BL curve which greatly increases 3rd order harmonic distortion. The flatter curve doesn't have that problem. Granted, this makes way more of a difference in the non-bass frequencies.
As an aside; before the XBL^2 patent was issued a bunch of us on a forum were trying to figure out ways to create a flat BL curve. I e-mailed Dan and suggested an hourglass shaped winding to counter the parabolic curve. He said him and David Hyre had considered that but quickly put it aside due to all the engineering problems it would cause. He said the XLB^2 design was far more elegant. I had to agree when they released the design to the public. I thought it funny when I saw TC Sounds release that same design later on. Please note, I'm not claiming he got that idea from me. Just that it was an obvious solution. I should also probably note that I went on to work for Dan at Adire Audio a year later. So I may be a bit biased.
lol. You're still alive and kicking. Good job!
Last time I heard from you, you were mad that I "stole" your Brahma excursion video. I just reposted it and it got popular. I remember downloading it from the Adire site or ROE. Meh. I also remember you talking LOTS OF SHIT, about using longer coils on the XBL motors... even after I'd talk to Dan about it and then did experiments on my own. The video is just my experience and my opinions. You're welcome to have your own channel and state your own opinions. I just ask that you be nice in the comments.
Tumult was a sub-30Hz monster.
Hi there. So the dsm stuff is misleading to say that thru hole and surface mount is the same. No, not really. Same values. Same function. Yes. Sound the same, no. Not really. Matter of fact , Paul at ps audio answered this very well in a recent episode of ohms laws that he does. Me personally, a point to point tube amplifier even sounds a tad different that a pcb design using the same parts other than the pcb. Been there, heard that, and there are differences in the audio performance of all parts. Hard to be Apple to Apple when compared
LOL! Paul at BS audio?? He's so full of shit, when he sneezes, turds fly out.
@@RobotUnderground its a placebo thing or a vehicle going a different speed window up or down ambient noise like rush hour or nyc streets then corn fields. Im agreeing w you pat. Surface mount design of all components only benifited cost of production and possibly overall size. Reality might show the non smd having more surface area and cooling better. Smd won for 2 reasons at that....less cooling means shorter lifespan and cop savings.
Ya I knew you were knee deep in building for your peeps. Great vid as always. Can there be to much BL can magnets get so strong they’d pull coils apart?? I’m not a fan of loud bass I like low tuning 30-20hz and you’ve already explained how it’s kinda a waste and there are better ways to experience those frequencies BUT I still will tune my box to 25hz till I get bored with it and tune higher later on. But to me there’s a market for subs more suited to dumb low tuning and the enclosure doing most of the work. And I love how all these audio companies will sell all types of equipment EXEPT batteries and alternators and how most fan boys will only talk about there subs and amps. I’d rather talk about power supply and how it’ll be divided between the amplifiers being used and how much room available for the enclosure and how much hacking,bracing and big gap filler will be needed to contain serious bass. But hey if someone want to give me money just for equipment that they don’t understand well... and till this day I really don’t run fuses I don’t crank on my set up so hard so often that I feel it needed though I do plan on doing so more for looks and I don’t dip lower then 13.4 I rest at 14.7. Star-Patric Star.
Yes, you see that on the TC 5200 motor. The box requirement shrinks. That's why XBL or LMS are great for mids and tweeters instead. That's where you have an excess of BL and you can hear the difference in distortion. Bass is so hard to tell distortion. Everyone just loves the feel of it.
U need sum stickers man.
I got stickers. YOU need stickers. Just text me direct, 6023126504
Do you remember the Audiomoble Mass12? The dude that ran that company used to stay in audio forums saying his underhug sub was better than ever other design. It was so annoying
Yes, Thilo / TC Sounds nut hugger. TCS build all his drivers.
Mover... made an ass of himself talking about "topography" of his subwoofers. Hard working guy, I met several times, but an apologist to the Nth degree. Wiggins wrecked him, he never recove...
Clear coil glue has less temp handling then black glue with that hernon coil bonding spec sheets will show this so a wet wound baked each layer in the autoclave has temp advantages but I can't say if the lower temp glue is enough temp handling in sub application.
"If you're using your system correctly, the subs SHOULD NOT get hot." - Thilo Stompler
Look at the REVOLUTIONARY square magnet EMF Ermagerd. I call it ermaturd. I sent him a picture of a MTX square magnet and a picture of a square magnet out of a 50s Chevrolet pickup and showed him revolutionary. Banned immediately.
lol! Banned for that?
You could use 2 y30 slugs and 2 y35 slugs on your 4x4 and call it a new hybrid design lol.
I thought I went over this. Y30 and Y35 are the same after a good day of abuse.
@@RobotUnderground you did but not everyone watches your videos.
If these motor topologies were any good then we would see them in pro audio where all the money is. We don't. Overhung is the most common, and some of the higher end drivers use split windings. LMS is garbage, which is why the company went out of business and most of the drivers ended up broken.
Kewl
This is just wrong completely you obviously don't have any transducer engineering experience underhung will have lower distortion up to xmax while allso lower inductance due to smaller coil and lower moveing mass u can gain the bl loss and power handling back with a flatwound coil xbl2 has low distortion but is inefficient same with split coil both have low distortion low inductance but low sensitivity is designs that need higher efficiency use underhung those that don't need the efficiency use xbl2 or split Coil overhung is the cheapest and highest distortion of them all if your talking about well implemented versions of every motor type sure a well implemented overhung vs a poor implemented underhung would be better this is why accuton scanspeak 12mu 18wu use underhung much more linear bl over stroke vs a bell curve of the overhung
Not true
Man,you better watch out. Or the guy who’s never innovated a thing and makes frankenwoofers Willy nilly will block you lmao.