@@Kuba_K Dude i just watched your vid on Kite vs High-Tech SF in disbelief, and read your tease in the description about Wolf vs Ziggy on 500 subs, so i was like - where's the video, huh? Let's just say my jaw dropped when i looked at your newest rendition (ik those uploads were 6mo ago, but i didn't get any recommends on you sadly)
Conceptually, fighters always seen cool to me - starwars and stuff, right? But I always have trouble making anything other than bomber spam work, hopefully this tierlist helps
39:17 That explains a lot about why high-cost, high-power fighter wings from mods perform so good and the AI never seems to respond appropriately to them until it's too late
What I appreciate about these tier lists is that you acknowledge existence of boring tactics, like SO or fighter spam, but don't praise them as the best way to play. Only thing to add here is that (for me) role of carriers in the fleet is to compensate for something it lacks. Struggle with big meaty targets - get bombers, struggle with fighters swarms - get interceptors. It's a nice way to round your composition up a little.
I am both: Extremely happy that someone finally explained clearly and exactly how the fighter’s system works. And: Utterly p’d-off that literally NOBODY ELSE managed (in the past 4-5 years of my playing) to articulate in any fashion beyond “fighters (especially converted hangers) good”. Because the latter is about as useful as using a dropped plate of spaghetti for a roadmap, and is why I flushed the concept of fighters straight down the toilet. No coherent starting-point and insufficient personal time to examine the subject at all. Apologies for venting about it on your channel. I suspect that I will have a similar reaction on your video regarding missiles. “Always add missiles” is as useful as teats on a bull. Am I pulling the teat or some other part that I shouldn’t be milking? :P Thank you man. (And if my mini-rant causes RUclips issues, feel free to delete. I’m not here to cause you issues. I’m incredibly grateful for this info.)
The mining pod has a somewhat unique use on a Legion build that focuses on the battle half of "battlecarrier". It's a lot of ablative hitpoints that hang out in front of your shield, still work while you vent, and still do PD (via a million tiny lasers or facetanking) while you vent - and they'll never wander away to do other things, without any need to spend points on mods for that behavior.
Very much this. Mining pods can facetank reapers, and these are drones so having them won't drain your crew in super-long expeditions. Logistics matter.
Although true, I think it’s still a waste of your flight deck compared to talons. The shots you’re truly worried about (like plasma or Hellbore) pierce drones or die in about as many hits as a talon would anyway.
Swarm missiles turning from frag to HE gave Talons formidable glass cannon teeth. They will destroy shieldless wings when they are left to wreak havoc, and frigates that lack point defense coverage will find their armor ripped apart by missiles, then hull shredded by vulcans. They are easily taken out by most weapons, so they are better leveraged with other fighters who cover other roles.
I always found fighters the most difficult to use, probably because it's hard to keep track of their performance during a fight, so this tier list should help me suck less with them!
I'm going to advocate a bit for the sparks. In a general sense they're really not great, but conditionally they can be fantastic. I've found that they make a fantastic use for the fighter slots on the Odyssey. There they solve the problem I need fighters for most there, where I want the short term extra PD while I dash in, and then while I boost out to dump flux they recharge and finish replenishment. I won't argue that they're A, or even B, but i think they have uses beyond what I would put in D. I'm also going to advocate for Warhogs in B. I did a lot of testing with the Legion as a battlecarrier using 2 onslaughts as my benchmark opponent, no officer (can't remember if i had the carrier fleet skills). The only fighters that contributed meaningfully to the fight were the Warthogs. That extra armor kept them in the fight, kept the pressure up on the PD, and chewed up armor fast when they got to it.
You're actually providing such a useful service with these videos, thank you so much for the care and attention to detail, the in depth explanations, the *soothing voice*. Can't wait for the missile tier list, more general guides on how to do loadout/ fleet composition would be very much appreciated as well, just don't burn yourself out man, ok? Cheers from Italy, mate.
I honestly would love a video simply about commanding a fleet. I mainly just make escort groups focused on a larger ship. Sometimes it's a cruiser with a frigate, or a capital with a couple cruisers and a few destroyers. I don't really focus on the objectives, but if I can grab one I do. I know I'm not doing it well, and I'm pretty much at a standstill when I'm reaching the point when I'm fighting larger fleets with my large fleet beyond just brute force and more ships. I try watching other people play the game and command their fleets, but it's difficult to understand what is happening and why they use the different orders that they do.
It's a complex subject. All the ships you have and the loadouts you chose to them all the way to ordering them and who is piloting them in combat effects everything dramatically. Some fleets literally require zero orders and you can wipe everything, while if you start to order them around they take losses / gets defeated. Meanwhile another fleet comp requires specific orders to succeed. This also makes Starsector so good. So many playstyles, ships and fleet builds.
Surprised to see sarissa so high. In my experience canister flak is fantastic in theory but they literally never use to stop missiles unless they are already engaging bombers, presumably because they don't see themselves as the target.
Yea same. Plus they get killed easily cause they're on the frontline attacking with ACs and drain so much replacement rate. In my experience, in the Odyssey, if you can spare the flux cost use 3-4 burst pd. It's way way more reliable than canister flak or even xyphos. Plus sarissa get killed so often the ACs don't do much in the end.
Your video is well composed and good quality like usual. I’ve actually been looking into all vanilla fighters a lot and I have a lot of experience with when and how to use each one. Gladius needs to be at least one tier below wherever the broadsword is, if not the same tier of wherever you put the broadsword. You mentioned how broadsword can’t sustain their machienguns dps. Gladius has much better flux dissipation, with the same amount of light machineguns per model. It takes about 2? seconds for the DPS of 2 gladius models to surpass outputs to surpass 3 models. The Gladius very rarely fires its ir pulser, so it doesn’t reduce its light machinegun dps. You mentioned this later on when talking about the claw, but the Gladius is also faster on top of higher sustained DPS. It’s outright just better at working with fighter wings. Gladius also works well as a higher kinetic dps variant of an escort for battle carriers. Personally, I would put Gladius one tier lower than broadsword, but not any more than that. Claw and Thunder - just want to mention, their emp doesn’t benefit from target analysis elite so if the enemy happens to have damage control wlite, the emp damage they deal is almost worthless. Most relevant when fighting remnant. Spark - these are more like C tier to me, for two reasons. One, they are a high model count with shields, so they can actually be extremely annoying to protect a ship by escorting a ship with their shields. That wouldn’t be enough for me, but also the spark (or any wing!) can benefit from an officer using point defense, including the elite point defense version. Spark with 50% more damage to missiles/fighters and +200 range is really, really good at clearing missiles and fighters, it might even outrange flare fighters before they launch flares. If you also use DTA, that’s an even bigger damage bonus. None of this is like, meta defining, but it’s very notably powerful support solution. I’ll make a reply later with more thoughts once I get to watch more. I don’t think I’ll have much to say based on the whole tier list, maybe I’d suggest dagger and flash be higher but it depends
The concept of ‘stronger wings’ with the warthog - I agree with the warthog being like C tier overall, it can be S tier compared to other wings if you spam 60 flight decks of them, but that’s not really a very strong strategy. But anyway, I think there’s room for ‘powerful’ wings, such as those mod wings you’re talking about, but it needs severe limitations. Some stuff I’ve been playing with - the requirement to invest Smods and/or officers and/or skill capstones to unlock your wings power, making fewer wings more impactful. The idea to make ‘superfighters’ cost DP and cannot be equipped on CH. Limits to make sure spamming wings gets weaker than having a smaller quantity of wings. But as starsector is now, yeah. You’re right for sure. Sarissa - nothing to disagree with, just wanted to mention I got the impression that CNSectornfolk seem to think Sarissa are super S tier. Me, eh? They’re great but like you said, the ch DP limit keeps them in check. Just thought it was interesting to mention. Flash - everything you said about the Flash makes sense, I would agree with you, but somehow I just keep finding people posting results of flash playing a part in carrying their fleet. Like those funny 0.96 Captain Hector BattleAstrals with cyclones - they used some flash. I’ve seen flash used in a salamander fleet with an astral to take on a lot of enemies. I feel like there’s something about the flash that just happens to work even despite those issues. I don’t get it. Even you mentioned it, too. There’s something magic here, I swear! Dagger - the speed and versatility of these bombers are just so amazing. They can actually play such an amazing, integral part of certain fleets (I’m thinking a wolfpack support doctrine fleet specifically, i know that one works) that I feel like it shoves it up to A tier. You don’t need an officer or carrier group, though I do think any bomber you use needs EDC since bombers are considered ‘dead’ after they launch their bombs, until they return to the carrier. All daggers need is something to protect them reliably. Like I hinted at earlier, hyper aggressive, mobile, short range frigates and destroyers eventually, you have so many frigates and destroyers that it’s sometimes difficult to get a lot of force concentrates onto one target. Dagger is the single most effective way to do this. If it never dies since it’s always behind frigates, you don’t have to worry about the replacement time. Having those frigates up front also helps more atropos get through, too. If you don’t use a tactic that keeps the dagger alive, using wings that will not die too often will help preserve replacement rate. I’m oversimplifying here but Replacement rate lowers based on an average of each flight deck’s lost models. Not using more daggers like longbows with daggers helps since longbows will be considered dead when launching bombs, but broadswords won’t. Some escorts like xyphos on a legion would help, too. About the Astral and Trident - they do work well with recall device, though I value the shield HP and weaponry (like the kinetic blaster) on my astral, using their relatively good shield stats as bait to lure in stuff like radiants and survive. Tridents are a bit too expensive for me, but if I’m officering the astral it’s not a bad idea. Just wanted to mention my thoughts on that, not saying I disagree with trident placement.
Its brought up at the end of the Trident segment but I think the Defensive Targeting Array itself is worth highlighting for use with bombers, in general the bombers seem reluctant to use their weapons from max range likely due to aiming issues so they often fly almost/into even 400-500 range where they get shot down by PD even though their torpedoes have like a 1200 range. On the other hand if you tie them to the ship with the DTA they become much more willing to fling their torpedoes from longer range. Having Longbows and Tridents flinging Sabo/guided Atropos from the "safety" of their carrier where they almost instantly reload might be such a dirty tactic you have to take a shower afterwards.
Man, that was such a good watch, and also educational. So much info that explains the fighter's occasional stupidity in battle. I always used the shielded fighters thinking that they would do better because of survivability, but seeing almost all of them placed lower in the tier list just confirms my feelings of disappointment when it came to them. Thats why I started just spamming warthogs, but man... poor warthog got robbed hard with that C. However, going unga bunga warthog spam generally worked "fine" so that C checks out I guess. Also, I always thought that cobra would be shit when it comes to replacement, so I never really used them. Gonna try out them and the other combos you mentioned on my upcoming playthrough.
Warthogs are mostly held back by forcing the carrier to get close and stay close to the target. Battlecarriers can do this, but they will usually prefer support fighters. If your carriers are survivable enough to pull it off, then the warthogs shine.
@bigbrainenergyguy Also, that legion build with the kopesh and gauss seems cool. Never even thought of that combo, with legion being flux starved. But that is why im here, I can always use more bigbrainenergy.
On an Odyssey using tachyon lances or plasma cannons, claws help a lot for additional point defense, especially as the player ship when the enemy fleet sends literally ALL their fighters and bombers at the Odyssey. Odyssey is built for flanking and outmaneuvering the enemy fleet (with the right skills and mods) so it doesn't make sense to use its bays for normal fighter or bomber runs.
1:30 that's a cool detail that I didn't know! But what happens if timid officer commands bomber-only heron? I'm sure you could make a whole video about officers, skills and personalities!
@@georgestarkey5448 i wish corvette craft were an actual thing in the game, working like fighters where they can keep being replaced, but being able to change their loadout according to your needs
One thing about flash bombers is that they definitely have an impact on frigates. They don't kill, but they clear space like nobody's business. Watch the map when they drop. They cut a hole right through the fleet. Anything that doesn't get out of the way dies.
I used to like the mining pod specifically for converted hangars back in 0.91, since mining drones have an above average hull and armour they could just facetank shots for your enforcers and make them into even more of a low tech brick, but now that converted hangars increase the DP of the ship I don't think it's worth using at all.
It really does help your ship survive. I think it depends on the ship ai but they work really great as meatshields. Ships that should have no problem dealing with a venture just can't commit to an attack when its pods are alive
Woah, an actually good tier-list! Only thing I'd change is move Dagger to A, they are fantastic on the Astral. Everything else is fine, and I _definitely_ agree on the Sarissa. Recently, they're my favorite fighter wing. Perditions need a buff, they are in a sad state at the moment. Might even move them to F until it happens.
Perdition is worse than nothing (mining drone), put it in P-tier. Perdition could be buffed by some serious reduction of its replacement time, to reflect its low-tech lore.
wasps and talons get incredible dps and range with defensive targeting array and elite PD skill. their dps vs fighters and missiles increase with 100% and range 200
One iteresting take for mineing pods is useing it a "replacement" for the small weapon slots you would normaly use for PD anyway, in theory Freeing OP for a more offensive loadout.
oh wow, spoiler alert for the hiver run Thx for the fighter tier list! I love em but suck using them (unless its the warthog... love me some warthog spam)...
Hey, regarding Piranha and Flash Bombers, the best way to add reliability and flexibility to them is to fly a flagship Doom. Enemies will always run away from Doom mines so you can place 2-4 down to make any enemy turn around into the bomb wave. Failing that you can try strategies to inflict flameout with high mobility emp and kinetic damage, but the sheer amount of dmg these bombers deal makes it worth building around them. I have run double astral setups to good effect vs all manner of fleet using both piranha and flashes once I got enough of those. Highly recommend 2 afflictors for debuff and point capture as well.
In general, because these bombers represent a huge amount of potential damage *and* ways exist to enable the application of that damage, I would rate them both maybe 1 category higher. Good ships and strategies make them way better, but they *do* restrict your strategies and aren't going to function on their own so rating them any higher is a bad indicator for people who want to just include "good" fighters.
Funny thing is that I find the speed of Perditions to actually synergize really well with Pilums. They go about the same speed, so if you put two Pilums, two Perdition wings and a Broadsword wing on a Mora the entire strike package of missiles, escort and bombers will arrive at the target at the same time and absolutely overwhelm PD.
Would a steady officer on a carrier with wasps be viable? Especially if you are capital heavy/cruiser heavy fleet composition? It would allow you to not put as much PD on your ships freeing up ordinance points for other things, right?
My issue with fighters has always been that they are cool in concept but simply do not perform that well unless you have a LOT. Or they do reasonably well if they are tough single entities, but then they are technically corvettes/light frigates. They can be very good as point defense, very cost effective if you get 0 point drones to defend you. Suddenly you have another 12 point defense weapons that can all point in any direction. The biggest issue though is the game performance impact. I found that the game was far happier once I banned myself from using missiles and fighters, it just struggles with so many independent enemies. Especially fighters that are all trying to pathfind, attack, and take damage.
My only issue with Khopesh's is that they get locked into the animation of firing all their rockets which makes them even less likely of surviving and an easy target. Bombers like the Longbows, Daggers, and Tridents can release their payloads at safer ranges so will typically have a higher survival rate It's all circumstantial in the end though good video overall.
Nothing but Longbows on an Astral is perhaps not the most versatile, but OH MY is it fun to overflux anything it touches. And the PD laser does somewhat defend themselves from other fighters.
I guess I end up getting into more fights with big slow heavy stuff over the course of my playthroughs that I hadn't stopped to think about why Cobra's _cloud be anything_ but S tier.
I would be cool to know what do you think of some modded fighters. The VIC and Kassadari factions offer some interesting concepts, although I consider the second underwhelming.
It often feels like fighters are pretty nice right up until I fight an onslaught with two devastators and take note that my fighter wings are just dead the whole time if they get near it. I wonder what would be the ideal fighter against such powerful anti fighter.
In that case the best thing is to bring direct combat ships that can confront the onslaught head on with some hefty emp. Devastators aren't much of a threat when they're offline.
They can't make a frontal assault in that situation, against an onslaught you're better off having a carrier on each side launch towards it. It can only turn to one side at a time if it chooses to turn to face the fighters, and one group will be certain to hit the engines. Tactics is just as important as the ships you're using after all.
@@bigbrainenergyguy Yea, the EMP is pretty nice for that, rounds out what the carriers can't handle. I feel I tend to go too all or nothing with fleet compositions at times.
@@ahmataevo I guess the main issue is the devastators cover the left and right side and the front melts whatever comes at it from all the guns firing and there's a shield, so I'd have to get it from behind, but they usually have a fleet backing them from that side. The Onslaught would likely be facing forward towards a combat ship infront of it rather than bothering to turn towards the fighters. Besides that fighters tend to circle an enemy ship and die regardless of direction they come in from.
About the 4x Khopesh and Gauss setup on the Legion, do you use Defensive Targeting Array or not. Khopesh's are one of the few fights with good enough engagement range that they can still fire at long range even with DTA.
i had a save, where i used 8 pirate eradicators and 10 condors for the cheap 5 deployment points per fighter bay slot, had a lot of fun but i also experimented with different kind of wings, the worst that i noticed was when i used a bunch of fighters, like claws, wasps, sparks... i couldn't just figure it out why the hell do i ran out of fighters in a really short amount of time... as soon as switched those to talons, problem solved, all the enemy ships were constantly getting swarmed by fighters and i was confused as hell cause i thought they are one of the worst since they are literally available day 1 together with the broadswords... now i learned something from the video, as long as i stay below a total of 35 ish seconds replacement time per wing, i'm gucci even for prolonged battles, also learned that wasps are not that bad either... i just need to know what to throw them at... definitely not ships as i used to do, but other fighters
Can't say I agree with the placement of mining drones. Their purpose is to be projectile sponges that reduce DPS your enemies have against the ship that has them, as they are beefy, the hulls after their destruction are beefy, and the box formation makes all 4 of them be able to block Incoming damage on ships like Prometheus Mk. II and Invictus. Talons, even with defensive targeting array, will not do any of this, that's on top of the fact that a willingness to pay for targeting array means you can probably shove in a better defensive fighter instead. That's not to say that Talon isn't good at being an Interceptor, but I wouldn't use Talon's at all if only 1 ship in my fleet has fighter decks, and that ship is something like Sparrowhawk - so, a battlecarrier with way too few OP to spare on fighters. Because mining pods will just work, regardless of fleet comp, only restricted to specific ships. Talons need a critical mass, or they get eaten by PD before they get to do anything I think F was unwarranted. Mining pods could've gotten away with a D
I never liked the longbow, because the AI is _really_ good at flickering their shields to take sabots. I could never line up the torpedoes and sabots to hit at the same time.
Wasnt the cobra bug patched out tho? Not sure which patch it would be, but i never seen this happen for quite a while. It was mostly a visual bug i guess, or low importance cuse the duplicated cobras ment that the orignals would just park themself and not actually go out in another attack run, that would be ridiculously overpowered
Do you prefer the Railgun over the Light Autocannon because of the accuracy? With the same range, higher dps/OP, and better flux efficiency, the LAC just seems like such an efficient option to spam.
Yes. The LAC is decent, but if you have enough OP you should go with the railgun. It's hard to name a fair price for accuracy because it's more of a "soft" factor compared to dps or flux. In this case it is worth it.
I do agree with what you said, solid analysis. What always bugged me, is how the [REDACTED] fighters are utter trash. Broadswords being king was to be expected but luxes? I wish that they'd buff luxes. Also sparks only work in a single way. By being spammed extremely. Otherwise don't use sparks. Totally true. I'd throw daggers into A tier tho. For bombers, there is only one real option in my eyes. Those are daggers. Have the speed to be good, and work well with longbows. The only real way to use bombers in my opinion and experience is longbows and daggers. Cobra's are utterly bad in many compositions from my experience, you either put like 2 cobra's 2 daggers and 2 longbows and call it a day, or just skip them. Thunder's only work when spammed. They are also a type of "critical mass" type of thing. Not really worth using much in my opinion. I wish you went more into the hullmods relating to carriers, I believe hullmods do change carriers by an even bigger margin than most combat ships when they get their hullmods. Carriers truly become absolutely crazy once you have 1-2 skills and a few hullmods.
on a carrier the first thing you should do is put fighters in the carrier before you do anything else with it before you add Sons before you add flux before you add weapons the fighters go on
I feel like for what wasps do they should be at LEAST b teir considering how well they do their job and how important that job is. For me they should be A teir as the job they do is so important and they so cheap and effectively.
Alex has gotta make replacement rate's drain rate be proportional to replacement rate itself I might be crazy but i don't see reason why game needs RR death spiral
I dont get why Piranhas get so much hate, they absolutely slap against larger ships, why would I ever use fighters against destroyers? Combine these guys with Flash bombers and they will DELETE any big ship, flash removes shields, piranha removes everything else. Also pairs well with longbows. According to detailed combat results, Piranhas are my second best DPS fighter in almost every fight. Btw the trident works very well with bigger fleets, you need to bring a lot of carrier with a lot of different setups and then just drop 2 tridents in there somewhere. In all the ensuing chaos they will find their way to the target and SLAP. They are not great on their own, it gets better with mods because they add more options for slower fighters.
Is it fair to compare Sparks to Talons when the things that can use Talons cant use Sparks and vice-versa? Edit: I had a brain fart and forgot you can use Remnant fighters on manned ships, but cant use normal fighters on ai ships. For whatever reason not being able to use regular fighters with that one AI Legion XIV really stuck in my mind.
I disagree with the Piranhas. The thing isthat they are a niche. A strong niche. They behave... Like piranhas. If youget into their water you die. If you just exit the water by walking into the beach... Nothing happens lol. But. If you donget hit, they do the most damage in the game. They are a strategic killer.
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Hm... I dont think this video is about missiles
What are fighters if not smart missiles
@@Kuba_K Dude i just watched your vid on Kite vs High-Tech SF in disbelief, and read your tease in the description about Wolf vs Ziggy on 500 subs, so i was like - where's the video, huh? Let's just say my jaw dropped when i looked at your newest rendition (ik those uploads were 6mo ago, but i didn't get any recommends on you sadly)
Some fighters also shoot missiles
Ohka moment
@@hidalgobc Luddic IED moment
Conceptually, fighters always seen cool to me - starwars and stuff, right? But I always have trouble making anything other than bomber spam work, hopefully this tierlist helps
39:17 That explains a lot about why high-cost, high-power fighter wings from mods perform so good and the AI never seems to respond appropriately to them until it's too late
What I appreciate about these tier lists is that you acknowledge existence of boring tactics, like SO or fighter spam, but don't praise them as the best way to play.
Only thing to add here is that (for me) role of carriers in the fleet is to compensate for something it lacks. Struggle with big meaty targets - get bombers, struggle with fighters swarms - get interceptors. It's a nice way to round your composition up a little.
I am both:
Extremely happy that someone finally explained clearly and exactly how the fighter’s system works.
And:
Utterly p’d-off that literally NOBODY ELSE managed (in the past 4-5 years of my playing) to articulate in any fashion beyond “fighters (especially converted hangers) good”.
Because the latter is about as useful as using a dropped plate of spaghetti for a roadmap, and is why I flushed the concept of fighters straight down the toilet. No coherent starting-point and insufficient personal time to examine the subject at all.
Apologies for venting about it on your channel.
I suspect that I will have a similar reaction on your video regarding missiles. “Always add missiles” is as useful as teats on a bull. Am I pulling the teat or some other part that I shouldn’t be milking? :P
Thank you man.
(And if my mini-rant causes RUclips issues, feel free to delete. I’m not here to cause you issues. I’m incredibly grateful for this info.)
The mining pod has a somewhat unique use on a Legion build that focuses on the battle half of "battlecarrier". It's a lot of ablative hitpoints that hang out in front of your shield, still work while you vent, and still do PD (via a million tiny lasers or facetanking) while you vent - and they'll never wander away to do other things, without any need to spend points on mods for that behavior.
Very much this. Mining pods can facetank reapers, and these are drones so having them won't drain your crew in super-long expeditions. Logistics matter.
Although true, I think it’s still a waste of your flight deck compared to talons. The shots you’re truly worried about (like plasma or Hellbore) pierce drones or die in about as many hits as a talon would anyway.
Swarm missiles turning from frag to HE gave Talons formidable glass cannon teeth.
They will destroy shieldless wings when they are left to wreak havoc, and frigates that lack point defense coverage will find their armor ripped apart by missiles, then hull shredded by vulcans. They are easily taken out by most weapons, so they are better leveraged with other fighters who cover other roles.
I always found fighters the most difficult to use, probably because it's hard to keep track of their performance during a fight, so this tier list should help me suck less with them!
Broadsword spam my beloved
I'm going to advocate a bit for the sparks. In a general sense they're really not great, but conditionally they can be fantastic.
I've found that they make a fantastic use for the fighter slots on the Odyssey. There they solve the problem I need fighters for most there, where I want the short term extra PD while I dash in, and then while I boost out to dump flux they recharge and finish replenishment.
I won't argue that they're A, or even B, but i think they have uses beyond what I would put in D.
I'm also going to advocate for Warhogs in B. I did a lot of testing with the Legion as a battlecarrier using 2 onslaughts as my benchmark opponent, no officer (can't remember if i had the carrier fleet skills). The only fighters that contributed meaningfully to the fight were the Warthogs. That extra armor kept them in the fight, kept the pressure up on the PD, and chewed up armor fast when they got to it.
You're actually providing such a useful service with these videos, thank you so much for the care and attention to detail, the in depth explanations, the *soothing voice*.
Can't wait for the missile tier list, more general guides on how to do loadout/ fleet composition would be very much appreciated as well, just don't burn yourself out man, ok?
Cheers from Italy, mate.
I honestly would love a video simply about commanding a fleet. I mainly just make escort groups focused on a larger ship. Sometimes it's a cruiser with a frigate, or a capital with a couple cruisers and a few destroyers. I don't really focus on the objectives, but if I can grab one I do. I know I'm not doing it well, and I'm pretty much at a standstill when I'm reaching the point when I'm fighting larger fleets with my large fleet beyond just brute force and more ships. I try watching other people play the game and command their fleets, but it's difficult to understand what is happening and why they use the different orders that they do.
It's going to take some time, but that is something I've got in the works.
It's a complex subject. All the ships you have and the loadouts you chose to them all the way to ordering them and who is piloting them in combat effects everything dramatically.
Some fleets literally require zero orders and you can wipe everything, while if you start to order them around they take losses / gets defeated. Meanwhile another fleet comp requires specific orders to succeed.
This also makes Starsector so good. So many playstyles, ships and fleet builds.
Surprised to see sarissa so high. In my experience canister flak is fantastic in theory but they literally never use to stop missiles unless they are already engaging bombers, presumably because they don't see themselves as the target.
Yea same. Plus they get killed easily cause they're on the frontline attacking with ACs and drain so much replacement rate.
In my experience, in the Odyssey, if you can spare the flux cost use 3-4 burst pd. It's way way more reliable than canister flak or even xyphos. Plus sarissa get killed so often the ACs don't do much in the end.
I WAS IN YOUR TOP %4 VIEWERS IN 2024 ACCORDING TO RUclips WRAPPED!! YOU WERE ALSO MY FAV RUclipsR WHICH CHECKS OUTTT
Your video is well composed and good quality like usual. I’ve actually been looking into all vanilla fighters a lot and I have a lot of experience with when and how to use each one.
Gladius needs to be at least one tier below wherever the broadsword is, if not the same tier of wherever you put the broadsword. You mentioned how broadsword can’t sustain their machienguns dps. Gladius has much better flux dissipation, with the same amount of light machineguns per model. It takes about 2? seconds for the DPS of 2 gladius models to surpass outputs to surpass 3 models. The Gladius very rarely fires its ir pulser, so it doesn’t reduce its light machinegun dps. You mentioned this later on when talking about the claw, but the Gladius is also faster on top of higher sustained DPS. It’s outright just better at working with fighter wings. Gladius also works well as a higher kinetic dps variant of an escort for battle carriers. Personally, I would put Gladius one tier lower than broadsword, but not any more than that.
Claw and Thunder - just want to mention, their emp doesn’t benefit from target analysis elite so if the enemy happens to have damage control wlite, the emp damage they deal is almost worthless. Most relevant when fighting remnant.
Spark - these are more like C tier to me, for two reasons. One, they are a high model count with shields, so they can actually be extremely annoying to protect a ship by escorting a ship with their shields. That wouldn’t be enough for me, but also the spark (or any wing!) can benefit from an officer using point defense, including the elite point defense version. Spark with 50% more damage to missiles/fighters and +200 range is really, really good at clearing missiles and fighters, it might even outrange flare fighters before they launch flares. If you also use DTA, that’s an even bigger damage bonus. None of this is like, meta defining, but it’s very notably powerful support solution.
I’ll make a reply later with more thoughts once I get to watch more. I don’t think I’ll have much to say based on the whole tier list, maybe I’d suggest dagger and flash be higher but it depends
The concept of ‘stronger wings’ with the warthog - I agree with the warthog being like C tier overall, it can be S tier compared to other wings if you spam 60 flight decks of them, but that’s not really a very strong strategy.
But anyway, I think there’s room for ‘powerful’ wings, such as those mod wings you’re talking about, but it needs severe limitations. Some stuff I’ve been playing with - the requirement to invest Smods and/or officers and/or skill capstones to unlock your wings power, making fewer wings more impactful. The idea to make ‘superfighters’ cost DP and cannot be equipped on CH. Limits to make sure spamming wings gets weaker than having a smaller quantity of wings. But as starsector is now, yeah. You’re right for sure.
Sarissa - nothing to disagree with, just wanted to mention I got the impression that CNSectornfolk seem to think Sarissa are super S tier. Me, eh? They’re great but like you said, the ch DP limit keeps them in check. Just thought it was interesting to mention.
Flash - everything you said about the Flash makes sense, I would agree with you, but somehow I just keep finding people posting results of flash playing a part in carrying their fleet. Like those funny 0.96 Captain Hector BattleAstrals with cyclones - they used some flash. I’ve seen flash used in a salamander fleet with an astral to take on a lot of enemies. I feel like there’s something about the flash that just happens to work even despite those issues. I don’t get it. Even you mentioned it, too. There’s something magic here, I swear!
Dagger - the speed and versatility of these bombers are just so amazing. They can actually play such an amazing, integral part of certain fleets (I’m thinking a wolfpack support doctrine fleet specifically, i know that one works) that I feel like it shoves it up to A tier. You don’t need an officer or carrier group, though I do think any bomber you use needs EDC since bombers are considered ‘dead’ after they launch their bombs, until they return to the carrier. All daggers need is something to protect them reliably. Like I hinted at earlier, hyper aggressive, mobile, short range frigates and destroyers eventually, you have so many frigates and destroyers that it’s sometimes difficult to get a lot of force concentrates onto one target. Dagger is the single most effective way to do this. If it never dies since it’s always behind frigates, you don’t have to worry about the replacement time. Having those frigates up front also helps more atropos get through, too.
If you don’t use a tactic that keeps the dagger alive, using wings that will not die too often will help preserve replacement rate. I’m oversimplifying here but Replacement rate lowers based on an average of each flight deck’s lost models. Not using more daggers like longbows with daggers helps since longbows will be considered dead when launching bombs, but broadswords won’t. Some escorts like xyphos on a legion would help, too.
About the Astral and Trident - they do work well with recall device, though I value the shield HP and weaponry (like the kinetic blaster) on my astral, using their relatively good shield stats as bait to lure in stuff like radiants and survive. Tridents are a bit too expensive for me, but if I’m officering the astral it’s not a bad idea. Just wanted to mention my thoughts on that, not saying I disagree with trident placement.
Its brought up at the end of the Trident segment but I think the Defensive Targeting Array itself is worth highlighting for use with bombers, in general the bombers seem reluctant to use their weapons from max range likely due to aiming issues so they often fly almost/into even 400-500 range where they get shot down by PD even though their torpedoes have like a 1200 range.
On the other hand if you tie them to the ship with the DTA they become much more willing to fling their torpedoes from longer range.
Having Longbows and Tridents flinging Sabo/guided Atropos from the "safety" of their carrier where they almost instantly reload might be such a dirty tactic you have to take a shower afterwards.
Wow, that's interesting, never thought of this.
Gonna watch the shit out of this one when I'm back from work. Loved two previous ones. You make premium content good sir. Cheers!
Man, that was such a good watch, and also educational. So much info that explains the fighter's occasional stupidity in battle. I always used the shielded fighters thinking that they would do better because of survivability, but seeing almost all of them placed lower in the tier list just confirms my feelings of disappointment when it came to them. Thats why I started just spamming warthogs, but man... poor warthog got robbed hard with that C. However, going unga bunga warthog spam generally worked "fine" so that C checks out I guess. Also, I always thought that cobra would be shit when it comes to replacement, so I never really used them. Gonna try out them and the other combos you mentioned on my upcoming playthrough.
Warthogs are mostly held back by forcing the carrier to get close and stay close to the target. Battlecarriers can do this, but they will usually prefer support fighters.
If your carriers are survivable enough to pull it off, then the warthogs shine.
@bigbrainenergyguy Also, that legion build with the kopesh and gauss seems cool. Never even thought of that combo, with legion being flux starved. But that is why im here, I can always use more bigbrainenergy.
I had a bad day then I saw this notification. I am having a good day.
Thank you Mr bigbrain
On an Odyssey using tachyon lances or plasma cannons, claws help a lot for additional point defense, especially as the player ship when the enemy fleet sends literally ALL their fighters and bombers at the Odyssey. Odyssey is built for flanking and outmaneuvering the enemy fleet (with the right skills and mods) so it doesn't make sense to use its bays for normal fighter or bomber runs.
I'm half an hour late, and there's so much comments already... Glad to see so many ppl respecting the only right opinion out there
Finally... a video tutorial on how to meme using Buffalo MkIIs and Mules (with Converted Hangars)!
Not even done and already definitely my favorite video of the series. I don't recall anyone else covering them this well
1:30 that's a cool detail that I didn't know! But what happens if timid officer commands bomber-only heron? I'm sure you could make a whole video about officers, skills and personalities!
I love so much this cannel, thank you for the effort
I always enjoy using the khopesh and seeing it just piss missiles, but the cobra is just, the cobra y'know
Also, wanted to know what peeps think of Corvette sized fighters from different mods
@@georgestarkey5448 i wish corvette craft were an actual thing in the game, working like fighters where they can keep being replaced, but being able to change their loadout according to your needs
Came for the thumbnail, stayed for the obscure game mechanic interactions
One thing about flash bombers is that they definitely have an impact on frigates. They don't kill, but they clear space like nobody's business. Watch the map when they drop. They cut a hole right through the fleet. Anything that doesn't get out of the way dies.
Yeah. They're also good at killing even the support fighters
Man, content is so good. We are eating so well
I used to like the mining pod specifically for converted hangars back in 0.91, since mining drones have an above average hull and armour they could just facetank shots for your enforcers and make them into even more of a low tech brick, but now that converted hangars increase the DP of the ship I don't think it's worth using at all.
Really good video, I like how you thoughtfully share your opinions on each part! Sarissa
It really does help your ship survive. I think it depends on the ship ai but they work really great as meatshields. Ships that should have no problem dealing with a venture just can't commit to an attack when its pods are alive
Hell yeah, another great tutorial
Interesting breakdown, thanks!
One note to add about the Khopesh! It is very useful for saturating enemy point defense. They work pretty good with Cobras.
Woah, an actually good tier-list! Only thing I'd change is move Dagger to A, they are fantastic on the Astral. Everything else is fine, and I _definitely_ agree on the Sarissa. Recently, they're my favorite fighter wing. Perditions need a buff, they are in a sad state at the moment. Might even move them to F until it happens.
Perdition is worse than nothing (mining drone), put it in P-tier.
Perdition could be buffed by some serious reduction of its replacement time, to reflect its low-tech lore.
You missed motes /s.
Those are projectiles not fighters so they will be in the missile tier list
@@digitalizedmind6784 xD
i love the concept of the piranha i just wish they got a buff
I forgot to mention they are getting a buff next patch. We'll have to wait and see how that plays out.
wasps and talons get incredible dps and range with defensive targeting array and elite PD skill. their dps vs fighters and missiles increase with 100% and range 200
One iteresting take for mineing pods is useing it a "replacement" for the small weapon slots you would normaly use for PD anyway, in theory Freeing OP for a more offensive loadout.
oh wow, spoiler alert for the hiver run
Thx for the fighter tier list! I love em but suck using them (unless its the warthog... love me some warthog spam)...
Xyphos in converted hanger is really good on champion with tach and hvd
Hey, regarding Piranha and Flash Bombers, the best way to add reliability and flexibility to them is to fly a flagship Doom. Enemies will always run away from Doom mines so you can place 2-4 down to make any enemy turn around into the bomb wave. Failing that you can try strategies to inflict flameout with high mobility emp and kinetic damage, but the sheer amount of dmg these bombers deal makes it worth building around them. I have run double astral setups to good effect vs all manner of fleet using both piranha and flashes once I got enough of those. Highly recommend 2 afflictors for debuff and point capture as well.
In general, because these bombers represent a huge amount of potential damage *and* ways exist to enable the application of that damage, I would rate them both maybe 1 category higher. Good ships and strategies make them way better, but they *do* restrict your strategies and aren't going to function on their own so rating them any higher is a bad indicator for people who want to just include "good" fighters.
Funny thing is that I find the speed of Perditions to actually synergize really well with Pilums. They go about the same speed, so if you put two Pilums, two Perdition wings and a Broadsword wing on a Mora the entire strike package of missiles, escort and bombers will arrive at the target at the same time and absolutely overwhelm PD.
Perfect vid for my carrier/converted hangar only run!
This man is unstopable!
TIL that Sarissas actually are not as bad as I thought they were. Might try it in my next run.
1st! Love the videos!
Bro your videos are so good I turn off my adblock and let the ads play to do my part
The range boost from elite pd skill is really good for increasing dps of fighters
Would a steady officer on a carrier with wasps be viable? Especially if you are capital heavy/cruiser heavy fleet composition? It would allow you to not put as much PD on your ships freeing up ordinance points for other things, right?
Wings of liberty!! Let's Gooo!!
Just the first 2 minutes already saving captain around the Sector. Only John Sextor can do this things
Are we gonna get a 2024 ship tier list next? id like to see the best loadouts!!
My issue with fighters has always been that they are cool in concept but simply do not perform that well unless you have a LOT.
Or they do reasonably well if they are tough single entities, but then they are technically corvettes/light frigates.
They can be very good as point defense, very cost effective if you get 0 point drones to defend you. Suddenly you have another 12 point defense weapons that can all point in any direction.
The biggest issue though is the game performance impact. I found that the game was far happier once I banned myself from using missiles and fighters, it just struggles with so many independent enemies. Especially fighters that are all trying to pathfind, attack, and take damage.
I'm eagerly awaiting Meme tier.
I think you could get a lot if humor value of hypothetical discussions between Paul Bingus and Chaddikus Rex
The fighter uplink boosting the speed should also boost the maneuverability and then it would fix it in the thunder but also any future wings.
My only issue with Khopesh's is that they get locked into the animation of firing all their rockets which makes them even less likely of surviving and an easy target. Bombers like the Longbows, Daggers, and Tridents can release their payloads at safer ranges so will typically have a higher survival rate It's all circumstantial in the end though good video overall.
Your voice is so 🔥
This tierlist is just like the Broadsword. S tier.
Nothing but Longbows on an Astral is perhaps not the most versatile, but OH MY is it fun to overflux anything it touches. And the PD laser does somewhat defend themselves from other fighters.
If you think about it, fighters are basically missiles anyway
I guess I end up getting into more fights with big slow heavy stuff over the course of my playthroughs that I hadn't stopped to think about why Cobra's _cloud be anything_ but S tier.
I would be cool to know what do you think of some modded fighters. The VIC and Kassadari factions offer some interesting concepts, although I consider the second underwhelming.
Was expecting missiles first, but fighters is a pleasant surprise.
It often feels like fighters are pretty nice right up until I fight an onslaught with two devastators and take note that my fighter wings are just dead the whole time if they get near it. I wonder what would be the ideal fighter against such powerful anti fighter.
In that case the best thing is to bring direct combat ships that can confront the onslaught head on with some hefty emp. Devastators aren't much of a threat when they're offline.
They can't make a frontal assault in that situation, against an onslaught you're better off having a carrier on each side launch towards it. It can only turn to one side at a time if it chooses to turn to face the fighters, and one group will be certain to hit the engines. Tactics is just as important as the ships you're using after all.
@@bigbrainenergyguy Yea, the EMP is pretty nice for that, rounds out what the carriers can't handle. I feel I tend to go too all or nothing with fleet compositions at times.
@@ahmataevo I guess the main issue is the devastators cover the left and right side and the front melts whatever comes at it from all the guns firing and there's a shield, so I'd have to get it from behind, but they usually have a fleet backing them from that side. The Onslaught would likely be facing forward towards a combat ship infront of it rather than bothering to turn towards the fighters. Besides that fighters tend to circle an enemy ship and die regardless of direction they come in from.
About the 4x Khopesh and Gauss setup on the Legion, do you use Defensive Targeting Array or not. Khopesh's are one of the few fights with good enough engagement range that they can still fire at long range even with DTA.
i had a save, where i used 8 pirate eradicators and 10 condors for the cheap 5 deployment points per fighter bay slot, had a lot of fun but i also experimented with different kind of wings, the worst that i noticed was when i used a bunch of fighters, like claws, wasps, sparks... i couldn't just figure it out why the hell do i ran out of fighters in a really short amount of time... as soon as switched those to talons, problem solved, all the enemy ships were constantly getting swarmed by fighters and i was confused as hell cause i thought they are one of the worst since they are literally available day 1 together with the broadswords... now i learned something from the video, as long as i stay below a total of 35 ish seconds replacement time per wing, i'm gucci even for prolonged battles, also learned that wasps are not that bad either... i just need to know what to throw them at... definitely not ships as i used to do, but other fighters
Finally I will now know how to use anything that isnt broadsword
I’m just here to say
Fighter spam alone? Countered by PD
Missile spam alone? Countered by PD
MISSILE AND FIGHTER SPAM? WOE UNTO MY ENEMIES
You didn't pack IPDAI? Well goodluck!
Can't say I agree with the placement of mining drones.
Their purpose is to be projectile sponges that reduce DPS your enemies have against the ship that has them, as they are beefy, the hulls after their destruction are beefy, and the box formation makes all 4 of them be able to block Incoming damage on ships like Prometheus Mk. II and Invictus.
Talons, even with defensive targeting array, will not do any of this, that's on top of the fact that a willingness to pay for targeting array means you can probably shove in a better defensive fighter instead.
That's not to say that Talon isn't good at being an Interceptor, but I wouldn't use Talon's at all if only 1 ship in my fleet has fighter decks, and that ship is something like Sparrowhawk - so, a battlecarrier with way too few OP to spare on fighters. Because mining pods will just work, regardless of fleet comp, only restricted to specific ships. Talons need a critical mass, or they get eaten by PD before they get to do anything
I think F was unwarranted. Mining pods could've gotten away with a D
True
Exactly
I never liked the longbow, because the AI is _really_ good at flickering their shields to take sabots. I could never line up the torpedoes and sabots to hit at the same time.
NO way we have Fighter tier list before Missle tier list. What is this personal beef with rockets that go boom :/ gimme PLEASE
Just in case you make a ship tier list, could you group them up by ship size rather than low tech, midline and high tech?
Yup! That makes the most sense. If anything, each ship size might get its own video.
Video appears to be missing a chapter marker for the Xyphos around 52:05, still says Cobra.
Good catch. It had a typo, so it wasn't showing up.
Wasnt the cobra bug patched out tho? Not sure which patch it would be, but i never seen this happen for quite a while. It was mostly a visual bug i guess, or low importance cuse the duplicated cobras ment that the orignals would just park themself and not actually go out in another attack run, that would be ridiculously overpowered
Do you prefer the Railgun over the Light Autocannon because of the accuracy? With the same range, higher dps/OP, and better flux efficiency, the LAC just seems like such an efficient option to spam.
Yes. The LAC is decent, but if you have enough OP you should go with the railgun. It's hard to name a fair price for accuracy because it's more of a "soft" factor compared to dps or flux. In this case it is worth it.
I do agree with what you said, solid analysis. What always bugged me, is how the [REDACTED] fighters are utter trash. Broadswords being king was to be expected but luxes? I wish that they'd buff luxes.
Also sparks only work in a single way. By being spammed extremely. Otherwise don't use sparks. Totally true.
I'd throw daggers into A tier tho. For bombers, there is only one real option in my eyes. Those are daggers. Have the speed to be good, and work well with longbows. The only real way to use bombers in my opinion and experience is longbows and daggers. Cobra's are utterly bad in many compositions from my experience, you either put like 2 cobra's 2 daggers and 2 longbows and call it a day, or just skip them.
Thunder's only work when spammed. They are also a type of "critical mass" type of thing. Not really worth using much in my opinion.
I wish you went more into the hullmods relating to carriers, I believe hullmods do change carriers by an even bigger margin than most combat ships when they get their hullmods. Carriers truly become absolutely crazy once you have 1-2 skills and a few hullmods.
on a carrier the first thing you should do is put fighters in the carrier before you do anything else with it before you add Sons before you add flux before you add weapons the fighters go on
I have fighter uplink lmao, and am using thunders XD didnt realize I was crippling them, its ok, ill swap off them for a bit
Man there was one loud lip smacking noise at the beginning of the video and now I can't help but hear it so loudly every time it happens aaaaaahhhhh.
I feel like for what wasps do they should be at LEAST b teir considering how well they do their job and how important that job is. For me they should be A teir as the job they do is so important and they so cheap and effectively.
Broadsword: Very mindful, very demure
And the common thing all three top dogs have is...
Kinetic damage. Not hard to see why.
Please do a hull mod tier list video aswell!
Yes.
Four mining pods on a gun Legion are good meat shields.
The only thing I've seen the Trident work on is an Astral and like... when are you ever gonna bring an Astral?
Frigate Tier list next???
Alex has gotta make replacement rate's drain rate be proportional to replacement rate itself
I might be crazy but i don't see reason why game needs RR death spiral
I dont get why Piranhas get so much hate, they absolutely slap against larger ships,
why would I ever use fighters against destroyers?
Combine these guys with Flash bombers and they will DELETE any big ship, flash removes shields, piranha removes everything else.
Also pairs well with longbows.
According to detailed combat results, Piranhas are my second best DPS fighter in almost every fight.
Btw the trident works very well with bigger fleets, you need to bring a lot of carrier with a lot of different setups and then just drop 2 tridents in there somewhere.
In all the ensuing chaos they will find their way to the target and SLAP.
They are not great on their own, it gets better with mods because they add more options for slower fighters.
What about the fighters that come with the tempest and the shepherd ?
Is it fair to compare Sparks to Talons when the things that can use Talons cant use Sparks and vice-versa?
Edit: I had a brain fart and forgot you can use Remnant fighters on manned ships, but cant use normal fighters on ai ships. For whatever reason not being able to use regular fighters with that one AI Legion XIV really stuck in my mind.
"360 no scoping laser"
Oh no, where are the subtitles :(
How do you tell fighters to regroup? It took me months to figure out that I could press Z in combat view to attack something.
Z does both. There's a little text in the bottom left of the screen that tells you which mode they're on, and you use Z to toggle.
@@bigbrainenergyguy Thanks
Hell Yeah
Broadswords stay winning rahhhhhh
The best fighter is
Gaming
👌
I disagree with the Piranhas. The thing isthat they are a niche. A strong niche. They behave... Like piranhas. If youget into their water you die. If you just exit the water by walking into the beach... Nothing happens lol.
But. If you donget hit, they do the most damage in the game. They are a strategic killer.