Church Splits - Church of England and Methodists
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- Опубликовано: 17 апр 2020
- Anglicans (The Episcopal Church in the USA) and Methodists (The United Methodist Church) are now separate denominations. But they have a common heritage as discussed in this video.
Your channel predicted the methodist schism years ago, which is why I subscribed
I love this kind of history! I am CME and enjoy studying both CME history and Methodist history in general.
Another well done video. I love this channel. I want to watch every single video.
Great work
I’m a Methodist pastor and I think this is a pretty good overview. Obviously a lot has happened in the last 2 years. There are now some clergy and congregations leaving the UMC and joining or at least talking with the ACNA. It’s a small movement at the moment, but I hope will help pave the way for future conversations between the ACNA and the new Global Methodist Church.
I think that it is both funny and telling that Charles Wesley after hearing that his brother John had ordained a minister and sent him off to the new colonies to ordain other ministers that Charles wrote in a letter to John that God has surely deserted him.
Strictly this is not a church split, in the sense of part of an organised church breaking off from another. The Wesleys were not even bishops and the new Methodist congregations were never organisationally part of the Church of England.
I would add that before Wesley “created” two Methodist bishops, he pleaded with the Bishop of London who refused to send additional Bishops for the Methodist movement. John Wesley took no joy in doing this - he hadn’t a choice.
While your observation is technically true, there is something of which I’m sure you are aware but that other people reading this thread might find helpful or at least interesting.
For many years, methodists in the United States referred to themselves as “methodist episcopal”. I believe it was because they thought of John Wesley as trying to maintain some sense of continuity with the Church of England while, at the same time, encouraging the people called methodists in ways he thought the Church of England hierarchy weren’t encouraging enough.
When people understand this, they can recognize the meaning of the cornerstones of church buildings that are engraved, “M E CHURCH”.
So now that there is an adulterer as Supreme Governor of the CofE, according to Scripture, what is gafcon going to do about this?
Brother, you listed The Wesleyan Church as a “Methodist” Church. While it has history in Methodism, like The Church of the Nazarene, they are their own denomination not a Methodist Church. The Wesleyan Church, long story short - as I did my undergraduate studies at Indiana Wesleyan University, comes from a merger of The Wesleyan Methodist Church and The Pilgrims Holiness Church, a historic German-American Church. They merged, if remember, in 1969 or 1970 to create The Wesleyan Church. They are their own denomination. It would be intriguing if you do a “What is The Wesleyan Church.” Just as you did for my church - What is The COTN? Again, thank you brother for your attention to history. We would push back if someone would call The Church of the Nazarene a Methodist Church. I believe same holds to The Wesleyan Church.
Methodist/Evangelical Anglican in theology he means
What is the COTN?
@@doraashby Church of the Nazarene.
COTN is the Church of the Nazarene a branch off the Holiness-Methodist Movement
However they did experience several church splits over its existence, one of which was significant was during the 50's when the Bible Missionary Church was created, they believed the Nazarene's were compromising and becoming too liberal, so A LOT of Nazarene churches pulled out and joined the BMC.
The BMC is part of a broader Conservative Holiness Movement which other denominations such as Pilgrim Holiness, Bible Methodist, Wesleyan Nazarene, Gods Missionary, and many others are part of. They are loosely defined group of inter-denominational churches who believe in careful standardized living and believe in second blessing holiness known as sanctification.
If you want to know more:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_holiness_movement
@@hesedagape6122 He meant Wesleyan/Methodist in theology not Evangelical Anglican. Wesleyan/Methodist theology is strongly Free Will/Armenian so much so John Wesley edited out Calvinistic parts of the 39 Articles of Religion to form the 25 Articles of Religion subscribed to by Methodists. Low Church Anglicans are generally 4 point Calvinists (rather than 5 point, TULIP) in theology as was George Whitefield and Welsh Methodists maintain Calvinistic views to this day.
Would it be possible to do other UK denominations based in (or grew out of) the UK? There's a lot of interesting ones that you could talk about, especially among the dissenting/non-conformist groups!
I have one UK one coming up. I do plan to do more UK, Australia, Canada denominations in time.
@@ReadyToHarvest good to know, ta! 👍
What about the Methodist Episcopal church???
Is there an updated video?
I want to know if they were to unite.
Christ is King
Mary is Queen
Mary is Certainly Not Queen!! Where is that in scripture?! It isn’t.
@@bethshoaf
Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ.
Jesus is King.
Jesus is unmarried.
An unmarried King needs a Queen.
Mary is Queen by default.
Remember, Mary's Soul Magnifies the Lord.
@@bornincarmel where is that supported by scripture? God does not use human logic. That is one of many lies perpetuated by the Catholic Church. Separate yourself from them my friend.
Has there been other splits in the Anglican Church apart from Methodism?
The Dissenters (i.e. Quakers, Puritans, Congregationalists)
@@Karltheknight how do they all differ from each other theologically?
@kayedal-haddad9294 in many ways, I suppose the Puritans and Congregationalists are the same though. This guy has some videos about the dissenters.
Two things:
1. I pastored that "Marion United Methodist Church" from 2018-2021 😂
2. You can't tell the story of UK methodism without mentioning Jabez Bunting and his role in making Methodists count as "conformists" in regards to their religious beliefs
I appreciate your video and attempt to condense Methodist History and it's schism from The Church of England. However, I would like to politely correct some very important details. Today, United Methodism -- which is the largest Methodist sect -- and The Methodist Church of Great Britain are two distinct and separate denominations. In the video you seem to conflate how these two groups became separated from The Church of England while ignoring some very important distinctions. First, you seem to imply that John Wesley oversaw the division between the two groups. While this may be the case to a limited degree in American Methodism, this was not the case in British Methodism. While you recognize that Methodist Societies were meant to be a compliment to The Church of England in their early days, you also seem to imply that the split in British Methodism happens in Wesley's lifetime. It does not. The split between the two groups in Britain comes after Wesley's death and is executed by the first President of British Methodism. Wesley was an ordained Anglican Priest his entire life and was a faithful Episcopal Monarchist until the day he died, going so far as to adamantly oppose American independence. He believed until the day that he died that it was the sole duty of a Bishop to ordain ministers and he did not ordain any ministers in Britain. In the American case, after asking the Archbishop of Canterbury to send Anglican Priests to the rebelling American colonies in order to serve Holy Communion and having his request denied, he takes matters into his own hands and commissions a Priest already ordained by a bishop, Thomas Coke, to go to America and ordain Methodist lay preachers there so that the Blessed Sacrament might be available. Once Thomas Coke arrives and they hold the Baltimore Christmas Conference in 1789, the American Methodists ordain ministers, name Francis Asbury, a recently ordained minister, as their first bishop and establish The Methodist Episcopal Church, separating themselves, in spite of John's wishes otherwise, from The Church of England and starting the first American Christian denomination. The mainline of American Methodism has kept the episcopal structure ever since. In contrast, The British Methodists remove the office after Wesley's death and schism from The Church of England.
Secondly, to your point about the potential for merger, you are correct in stating that the UMC and the Episcopal Church of America are working to enter into full communion with one another. However, The British Methodists and The Church of England have already begun the process of merging back together in totality. There is now both a Methodist Superintendent and Anglican Bishop present at and overseeing the ordination of all new Methodist clergy in England as part of the unification process.
If you could update your video to be more historically accurate, I would greatly appreciate it!
A few Methodists sailed from my little village of Pill, Somerset to the Americas.. John Westley visited Pill in 1755 and found more than 30 pubs and wrote in his diary “a place famous from generation to generation for brutal, abandoned wickedness”. In 1771 Francis Ashbury and Thomas Coke sailed from Pill also.
Over 200 years before John Cabot also sailed from Pill in 1497 although it’s always said it was Bristol.. anyone who understands the river will tell you it couldn’t be done of one tide and the last safe mooring were the historical little village of Pill.. ⚓️🦈
You can’t hang around eccumenists very long before one or more of them will tell you “Christians need to lay aside our differences in order to work (or worship) together.”
I propose, instead, that we try to learn from each other.
Example 1: My dad’s mother was an adherent of the Roman Church. Dad not only attended mass with his mother from a very young age, he attended catechism classes as well. From what he told me later, I gathered that he was an attentive student. In the 1920s, he decided he could not give tacit approval to the doctrine that Church hierarchy or the clergy should interpret the Bible for the laity so he stopped attending mass and stopped calling himself “Catholic”. From the time I was old enough to have an opinion about my father’s beliefs, I thought of his faith - his religion - as personal - not institutional. What he DIDN’T do is probably just as important. He didn’t teach my siblings and me that adherents of the Roman Church aren’t true Christians. He didn’t abandon EVERYTHING he had been taught in catechism classes.
Example 2: Dad admired Martin Luther (the sixteenth century reformer” and John Wesley (the eighteenth century reformer) but he didn’t idolize them. He taught us that each of those men (and other reformers) had taken steps away from traditionalism and toward biblicism but he thought the reformation should continue.
Example 3: John Wesley was sometimes castigated for using extemporary prayers. Dad never considered himself a methodist. He prayed often but I don’t remember him ever “reading” prayers.
Example 4: Dad believed that God knew before each of us was born, who would be saved and who would be lost (and I think he agreed with the Wesley brothers about this) but Dad didn’t teach us that God DECIDED, before we were born, who would be saved and who would be lost. I see no evidence that John Wesley taught that either.
Well said my friend. I’m Still preaching the Gospel by that Pennsylvania lake!
@@michaelfotta5781 As I was rereading what I posted four months ago, I thought I should have mentioned not only that I was never aware that Dad read or recited prayers (except the Lord’s prayer) but that he didn’t read prayers at home, in church buildings or anywhere else.
In late 2017, we moved to where we live now. During 2018, I attended the services of about a dozen congregations in the greater Bangor area (Maine). During 2019, I attended, an average of once a month, the services of one of the congregations that meets near here. I did so because it was easier for me to participate in the services in ways that I couldn’t as much or as easily as in most of the other places I had visited in this part of Maine - primarily because many of the songs sung by the nearby congregation were songs I knew (a style I describe as “old methodist hymns''), partly because the organist sometimes played the hymns in the key in which they were written in the hymnal (which allowed me to sing the bass part) and partly because I was sometimes invited to play my violin during the services. The sermons were more often biblical than philosophical or political and the pastor was not accustomed to using manipulation techniques to try to elicit “professions of faith” during the services.* I haven’t been attending anywhere because of COVID-19 but the pastor of that congregation has been sending me the “order of service” via email each week.
When I was attending services in 2019, I didn’t read the written prayers or the creeds aloud. Now it seems to me that the “prayers of confession” are more and more including confession of things of which most of the members of that congregation are not guilty. I may attend the services of that congregation again when the rate of new cases of COVID-19 has declined to a point that I think it is appropriate to resume attending in person (I’m 77 so it may be a while) but if the trend with regard to the prayers continues, that will make it difficult for me to even consider inviting friends or neighbors to attend those services with me.
It is possible that there are people reading this conversation who are having as much trouble as I am trying to find congregations that make participation easier for people like me. Your suggestions may benefit them as much as they benefit me.
P.S. I failed to understand your reference to a lake in Pennsylvania. Was there something in the video about that?
*I prefer to attend services where I would be comfortable inviting my neighbors to attend with me - the use of manipulation techniques rules out the baptist services I’ve attended in this part of Maine.
Anglicans need to learn the lessons of the Methodist Movement.
That's all that was intended. But unfortunately, here we are over 200yrs later both in splinters.
@@PrezidentHughes The issue of respect for the laity or what used to be called The Great Unwashed still needs to be dealt with. INMOHO Pax
It is not possible. The Anglicans believe in Predestination, while Methodists do not.
I don't know any Anglicans who believe in predestination. Do you?
@NorthernFire9 Thank you. It is interesting that you think to look in the 39 articles, where Calvinist double predestination is condemned. However, I don't know any Anglicans who pay attention to the 39 articles either. If there are any, it's rare. I know hundreds of Anglicans. Have you ever met even one Anglican that believes in predestination?
@@adamcgeller4545 articles have little practical authority. Historically significant, but not binding
Protestantism's existence and raison d'être is schism. Almost every protestant denomination is a cult of personality around one or a handful of reformers. I'm an ex-Pentecostal/ex-Christian. And while I have great respect for some protestant reformers including but not limited to Bishop Spong, Martin Luther, Joseph Smith, Troy Perry, Emmanuel Swedenborg, Carleton Pearson, William J Seymour, etc if I were to be a Christian, I'd want to be as authentically Christian as possible and that would be Catholic. A lot of gay and lesbian Christians, kicked out of their denominations have flocked across their denominational lines, ex-Mormons who become Methodists, ex-Baptists who become Episcopalians, ex-Seventh Day Adventists who become Lutherans (ELCA). Most stay close to home, ex-LDS Mormons become Community of Christ (RLDS) Mormons, ex-Catholics become Episcopalians, Old Catholics or even Lutherans. But I have witnessed the Francis effect first hand, seeing the least likely becoming Roman Catholic. Telina, she was Baptist but was always a gender deviant tomboy, she eventually came out as the Lesbian God created her to be. She was wiccan for a while until she became Catholic. She might have married her Lutheran wife in an Episcopal Church but she remained Catholic until she passed away from a car accident a few years back. Her small town priest in Tennessee got some flack because he did a funeral mass, after all she was lesbian and married. He snapped back that more than half his congregation had been divorced and remarried, and they quickly shut up. Telina(aka Tink) "witnessed" her faith by saying "being Catholic isn't about being perfect, but accepting we aren't perfect and we need God's love and salvation". Did she support marriage equality? Of course she did, she was married to a woman but she made peace with her Church's teaching of what she said was "the Judeo-Christian ideal of the purpose of marriage, monogamy, fidelity & child rearing" and that "while many of us fall short of that ideal, the Church should preach it, while accepting that many fall short, such as divorce, same-sex marriages, re-marriage, etc". I myself was almost taken in via the Francis Effect. I lived in New Orleans and I knew Gay twins, one of whom went from Episcopalian to Catholic. Why? Because the Episcopal Church became 2 things, 1 a Church that resembles a country club in it's membership and 2. a Church where an atheist feminist priest who belongs with Unitarians is preaching free abortions for all. He went on to say that Episcopal Church attendees are too old to even pay attention to what these crazy people are teaching, this was before the "woke" insanity called itself "woke". Did he become celibate or an ex-gay? Nope far from it but he left Episcopal Wokeianity behind for a liberal yet more authentic Catholicism. And while I haven't gone Catholic myself, all protestant denominations all practice a form of Cafeteria Christianity picking and choosing what they agree with or disagree with. Catholics and Orthodox Churches are far closer to the original teachings of Jesus, his apostles and discuples than protestants, especially American evangelicals.
Christian world domination. God Son Jesus said similarly to whoever is useful the most is the best merited of the apostles. Useful merit for eternal rewards and competition with other Christians. With God Son Lord Jesus Christ faith teaching, people will want to be useful for the kingdom of Heaven, which usefulness happens on Earth and if any other place. We need to help this world as much as we can!
This text will motivate, supposed to be Christian people, to do all types of usefulness. Chores, volunteering, grade school, high school, college, and work. Good people; this world needs them.
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Mark 9:33 (V)They came to Capernaum; and when He was in (W)the house, He began to question them, "What were you discussing on the way?"
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Mark 9:34 But they kept silent, for on the way (X)they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest.
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Mark 9:35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, "(Y)If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."
judgy much?