I really love how careful Iridikron is around the player character...it makes you feel like a badass when the villain has to work his plans around your actions and throw 2-3 big distractions at you, and even then they barely work (we actually beat him until we go back and stop Deios instead)
Baine better shine bright in this saga. Gnomes better do anything. It's kinda nuts that we're nearing the "end" of the story and there's so much left untapped. I just feel like we need something like class order halls for the races and race campaigns. Do it for classes too while you're at it, or incorporate the classes in the race campaigns. If you're a gnome mage you get different quests for some parts of the campaign that focuses on being a gnome mage. Will literally never happen, but that's my dream feature.
@@hobosnake1The issue with class order halls for races is that it would make it a way, way more fragmented story than it already is unless you only tell relatively minor events, in Legion they tried to do that (and they did a pretty decent job at it) but still one of the major complaints around class halls at the time was how many stories you would miss unless you went out of your way to level an alt and play him through then current content for quite some time. Having to play 10+ characters to see the whole story was quite insane, even more so when it's not just leveling them but playing them quite a bit through then current content, which is why to this day you can find a fair amount of people doing some classes questlines because they never got to at the time and I know it cause I was one of them, and every time I go back to do a class questline there was people doing campaigns. Doing the same for all races alone already doubles the amount of different subplots, but if you then add more complexity by making them different depending on race _plus_ class it's on a whole different level to the point that for an MMO it just doesn't work.
@@hobosnake1 What might work instead is something along the lines of... lets call it multiraces campaigns with sprinkles of class identity. Now what do I mean by this? a Relatively relevant campaign that involves a huge portion of a continent, thus involving multiple races and factions that have communities on those zones. For example, lets use Cataclysm as the revamp makes it easier to explain, imagine if the Hyjal campaign wasn't only limited to the Hyjal zone but the whole Northern Kalimdor? Maybe it could've started on Hyjal and then spread to zones like Ashenvale, Azshara or Winterspring. Then it would make for Orcs, Nelfs, Draeneis and even Goblins to lead that campaign, and then you could get a few classes to play it too like all Druids, Shamans and possibly Mages considering the Kirin Tors relationship with the Blue Dragons who care about Winterspring (maybe also DHs if they were playable at the time at the time), it could also be something even more simple like class flavour throughout the campaign, maybe if you are a Druid your "Gather allies" type-quest sends you to get Wild Gods, but if you are a Mage you go find blue dragons while also getting a comment about how other classes will gather other allies), maybe in a quest where you have to push against some fire elementals if you are a shaman or a fire mage you get a bonus that allows you to befriend some of the elementals, or if you are a frost mage you get to one shot them, and if you are a Druid you go with an ally cause the fire elementals counter you too hard. This allows for people to play all the campaings with way less characters, and it's also way way easier, cheaper and faster than creating completely separate campaigns, it also allows a more cohesive story, as you either play through or are completely away of what's happening in the zones you are no in, I think this makes the world feel more alive but also allows you to live through it without a 20+ character roster chore list.
I just want to dissent on one thing: I never thought the Jailer looked cool. The instant I saw him, I just went "but that's just The Lich King. Again. They reinvented the lich king!" It felt almost embarrassing how they just gave him more spikes, just like how they redesigned Sylvanas to have more spikes, or how they introduced scourge architecture but with more bones, etc. It just felt like such a bare-faced attempt to appeal to fan nostalgia while at the same time paradoxically throwing the things people were nostalgic for out the wayside.
I'm on team "Zovaal was manipulated by the Primus who is in cahoots with the Titans" so I think that he'll get a literary redemption arc when we get to the "the Titans are bad guys" part of the story. I'm looking forward to it. The Shadowlands story can still be turned into something decent in the grand scheme of things, if this is indeed the direction Blizz is going in.
If and ONLY if the First Ones aren't something new, but are entities we've known about for quite some time. Lore theorists will know what I'm talking about.
We dont know why the Zovaal wanted to reach the heart of the Sepulcher because he was being dominated by the Primus(the real Jailer). Thats why he has no personality. He acts just like emotionless Anduin when Anduin is dominated... If the Primus is in cahoots with the Titans and there's more untold lore there than the entirety of the Shadowlands and Zovaals plan could have been a way for the Titans to recreate the cosmos using the Heart of the Sepulcher or atleast control or destroy it.
Anyone else notice that ZOVAALS specific music motif plays in TWW cinematic when the sword is revealed? The motif that only plays in the context of Zovaal? Man.
Honestly, I have NEVER cared this much about characters or the narrative before. I loved all four of the primal dragons, especially Fyrakk. Everything about him was just so fun. I loved the blue dragonflight story. I literally cried at the nelf homecoming party (was a nelf for 12 years before switching mains). I even loved the little niffen guys and the exploration feeling you get with the dragonscale expedition.
Yes, say what you want about specific story beats or characterizations, but I think Dragonflight will be remembered mostly for Iridikron, which we'll probably look back fondly on!
R.I.P. Raszageth. The only one who achieved anything yet already forgotten. :'( Also Fyrakk literally stole and switched their whole personalities in the book, making her looks like the crazy one (that's peak feminism!) and acting as if we was already supposed to be the last boss and totally not 4.2 Ragnaros before the 4.3... I mean, 10.3, I mean, 10.1.5.
I have always loved that the Incarnates are worried about us, Fyrakk lost due to his own ego and want for destruction, Ice Queen (Can't spell her name) joined us as she realised the fight was pointless and life was better and FAMILY! Iridikron is the scheming and planning type which I love in a Villian where it feels like you have caught them but realise they were always 20 moves ahead
Plus their motivations are a lot more…. Relatable. I get why they are pissed at the Titans, Vyranoth’s scene where she frees the storm drakes from Odin is a prefect analogy to freeing the dragons as a whole from the titans. The fact that she views continuing the fight as not in the best interest of dragons which is her concern makes it strike home.
The Jailer had so much potential. My fear with Iridikron is they still have to to make him just the impetus behind void stuff getting to Azeroth and he'll be done after that.
My hope is that we don’t defeat him in the World Soul Saga… He strikes me as the type of villain that always has an exit plan, and knows when to cut his losses, (or take the minor win over risking it all for the total victory), and escape.
He said he's gonna go to Northrend and wait for the titans to show up, Last Titan takes place in Northrend, he's gonna be a boss there. Three expansions to make him iconic, I think Metzen's got this.
It just occurs to me that Zovaal said his whole "cosmos divided" thing like a million years ago when we was imprisoned right? So he must've seen something imminent...so then did we miss it? Is it still coming all these years later? Then why was it urgent before?? Huh???
Because they’ve been doing what they’re doing for a long time? It wasn’t urgent. He just was ready and learned his lesson the last time he tried to explain himself. If you were trying to save the universe and got humiliated and hurt by your allies would you bother stopping for the misguided ants rallying to stop you
Also he is without his rune marks when saying this, and he is talking to right to the Primus, the “Runecarver” himself. This says it all to me. The Primus dominated Zovaal.
@@pocholo5177 the cutscene is a mix of when the others turned on him and us beating him. It’s unclear if he said it both times or just when we won but seems likely both
Well, you put your finger on the exact moment the Jailer lost me too. The whole "Pitiful mortal" scene. It's where it really became clear we shouldn't expect much from him, where it came to interesting villain. Honestly at some point I was convinced he was a misdirect. Being played by Denathrius, as his battering ram into Zereth Mortis, only to be betrayed.
Honestly, I was kind of hoping for back-and-forth between these two the whole expansion. More interactions with the eternal ones would’ve been nice too. I’m not surprised that they didn’t play the make it personal for the player character card with the jailer though I mean they did just use it on Nzoth.
Jailer kinda got screwed with the game obviously being changed last minute and then ended early just like WoD to get out of it early At least half the quests have us set up to seemingly not trust the death pantheon, then all of a sudden they're our best friends. This story was cut everywhere. I do agree that Dragonflight had the better story and better vilians but it was also a complete game and didn't have a world shut down in the middle of it. Every story had time to play out at the speed that blizz wanted us to know the story. Everything had time to breath and was just fun to play so it makes the story experience feel even better
3:02 You know I just watched SypherPK do the same joke with Fortnite's Ice King (albeit in a video uploaded a year ago) but better (I know this is supposed to be a reference to the _Lich_ King but that's part of why SypherPK's version of the joke worked better)
Or...OR - and this is likely the case - the design for The Jailer never changed. The first trailer showed The Jailer, the second trailer showed Zovaal. Because Zovaal is a puppet. He's not The Jailer, The Primus IS. The "master tactician/Sargeras" of the Shadowlands is and always was The Primus. That first trailer outline looks way more like The Primus than Zovaal. It's intentionally left as just an outline of his figure for a reason, and that reason isn't "Zovaal's design wasn't finalized yet." Name one time in WoW's history that the main villain of an expac wasn't finalized art wise in the reveal trailer for an expansion. I'll wait...forever. Illidan, Arthas', Deathwing. Everyone's design was known by Blizzard by the time they announced an expansion. This is no different. SL was one expansion where who we thought was the big bad actually wasn't the big bad. It's next level storytelling, and the moment Blizzard fully reveals this insanely amazing plot twist openly, everyone is going to change their mind about SL and call it one of the greatest expansion stories of all time. Just like when people talked shit on MoP and it's regarded as great all of sudden so to will SL. Gameplay means nothing, the story is what matters in WoW, and SL was S tier. It simply was too deep of a story for 99% of the playerbase who don't even care to read quest text, let alone use their brain to connect the subtle dots needed to comprehend SL's story and lore. SL's hate showed me just how dumb the playerbase truly is. We need more stories like that, and with Metzen back, you better bet your ass we're getting insane plot twists like that again. And the reason Zovaal seems so emotionless in all but one flashback, is additional proof he's being Dominated by The Primus, who invented Domination gear by the way. The runes are etched into Zovaal's body. Anduin and Arthas' both showed no emotion while Dominated. Zovaal being emotionless is absolutely on point with the narrative and this twist. DF's story was mid. Nothing amazing happened, a bunch of missed opportunities in the lore with Galakrond, Murozond, and Deathwing. The focus on the Incarnates was a misstep. They barely added anything to the overall lore. SL gave us a metric ton of new amazing lore that we'd been waiting for for over a decade. The only great thing about DF is Dragonriding, the S tier music, and a few fun raid fights. Story wise, lore wise, DF disappointed me. Can't wait to see the Worldsoul Saga play out. It's going to be legendary.
If the theory about the Primus proves true, then there may be more to the Jailer than we've seen so far that could make for more interesting development of his true character (even if he'd be no more than the Primus' puppet as a villain).
Iridikron: "I'm going to corrupt the planet to lure the Titans here, then see to their destruction." The Jailer: "I'm going to unite the cosmos. Through domination. Rewriting reality to remove free will and make all suffer." Zovaal managed to be the worst thing about his own expansion. And honestly worsened two previous ones too.
I guesd i would have to play dragonhugs but I think the Jailer if he wasnt a "9D" mastermind and was properly written he is better then.. some scaly. But i personally dont like both of them as they just.. dont feel imposing
If only Dragon Ball Z Abridged's Buu Bits had came out while Shadowlands was in development. Because then the Jailer's first line could have been "Fucking morties"
"A divided cosmos will not survive what is to come.." I believe is actually a brilliant nod and foreshadowing towards midnight and the void. Most of xal'ataths moves are COSMIC void. Zovaal was talking about the cosmos as a whole what if the first ones knew of the cosmic voids plans and knew what was eventually going to come to azeroth?
Once the World Soul Sage is finished, we will be pushing 10 years since Shadowlands. One way or another, we will go back. We will discover the truth. Won't be for an entire expansion again however. The dead will come to us.
Love that Tali keeps going back to his "the Jailer was just an opportunist" theory despite it making _way_ less sense than the admittedly ridiculous "the jailer planned it all" theory. As bad as the jailer was, while the "mastermind" version might feel unearned, the "opportunist" version of the character is somehow even worse.
I feel like if Shadowlands had some flashback cut scenes where events were shown to have been directly put into place by the jailer then that might have helped out the narrative to feel less like 5D chess. It was blizzard. Just wanted you to swallow, the whole storyline as presented and just accept the fact that this guy was secretly, the evil menace everybody should have been looking out for in the first place without any pretext
I hope they make Xal'atath a good evil villain who will be a satisfying defeat/kill, not that morally grey or villain-turns-ally crap that they pull with the other female characters just cause they're afraid to write an evil woman in 2024 and all the real villains are always men
On the deep evil voice point, Iridikron may be more tolerable because, as you point out, he's one of three and has the vocal variance of the other two to break the monotony. But while it's boring having the same vocal profile time and time again, it's kinda realistic. These enemies are usually much, much larger than standard human size, so their larger vocal cords would lead to deeper voices.
The thing with WoW’s villains (as well as the hero NPC and “story”) in general is how everything fails because YOUR character never stands their ground when facing dilemmas or enemies. Your character always play second fiddle so I do not see how you can take WoW villains seriously if your character does not have any beef against them. Comparing to FFXIV, Zenos (our combat-sexual friend-emy) makes it his main intent to fight you because only YOU give him the hunger and fun for fighting. Zoval and Idiotkron don’t even interact with your character in the game’s story. I had Zenos (my enemy) steal my character’s body (Endwalker) to go slay all of my comrades (since your character is like a deity) and everyone in the camp. Plus WoW cinematic scenes are so short that you can BARELY tell a story or know what’s going on. There’s hardly any character development for villains that I’ve seen.
I just wanna say, this is a fantastic video Tali. Funny af and honestly hits all the nails on their heads. Iridikron is an absolute badass and the cinematic during the epilogue quests was soooooo good. It was like proper super villain vibes
The only way Slands makes any sense is if the Primus is the real bad guy. He made the domination magic, he inscribed the runes on Zovaal and dominated him, he pulled the strings from Torghast, and we helped him make a new and improved Helm of Domination for the Arbiter. The domination runes disappear when Zovaal is freed, right before he is reverted to his robot mannequin form. That's why Zovaal sucks so bad, because he's just the puppet acting for the real master. We thought Zovaal was playing 4D chess, but in reality, it was the Primus playing 5D chess all along. The same kind of 5D chess game that we know Sire Denathrius is playing with the Dreadlords. IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES ANY SENSE! Haha just a little cope.
"Fandaniel is the worst, seriously fuck off Fandaniel." Y'know I've said this for a while and gotten flack for it but I certainly feel like Fandaniel/Hermes was the Jailer for FFXIV. Came outta left field, claimed responsibility for _EVERYTHING_ leading up to him, and is just plain _insufferable_ as a character.
Of course Iridikron is better since he was written after the mistakes with Zovaal to not do them again. And i believe Zovaal's motives lack context that would've/will make sense in the future. Let's say the Titans imprisond the Universe especially Azeroth who is a Titan/First One of Creation or whatever and controlled/used by them. We learn this from Azeroth herself, ally with Iridikron, kill all the Titans and their and free Azeroth. Then Illidan, Mediev and Sargeras come back and tell us about he bigger scale of Titan facilities and conspiracies. Sargeras was always right and is happy that the plans of him and his best buddy Zovaal have worked. They weakened the prison we and Azeroth were in and even rescued her. Tada, Zovaal, Sargeras and Iridikron being the good guys. With very problematic methods, but good intentions. But we don't have such context yet
Nothing says terrible writing like "You've never met me, but I'm behind everything everywhere ever to ever happen." When Ion is gone, it will be a great day for WoW.
Fyrakk: Am I a joke to you? (I am indeed one!) Raszageth: You son of a fish come back here!! In one book you stole my whole personality after I brained those mortals and gave my life to free you. And you want people to remember me as the crazy one?! (yep, that's peak feminism right here) Bolvar and Alextrasza: * *Gently swinging on their rocking chair, under the rain, still waiting for the slighest development of their own character and faction during their own expansion.* * "We are tomato red!"0 It's so obvious Blizzard drastically cut DF content again. And unlike SL and BfA, it has been handled extremely messy (but no one cared about this lore anymore anyway, so it doesn't look "as bad") But oh boy we felt from high grounds. It's almost worst than WoD (or WotLK) It's full of bad joke and nonsensical quests without start nor end. They obviously cut the 10.3 and Deathw- I mean Iridikron, to shove him in the 10.1.5. They couldn't even follow properly Cataclysm patches they were actively auto-plagiarizing (and they were openly proud of their methods!), putting Ragna- I mean Fyrakk as a last minute final boss. I feel like Midnight will be like Legion was for WoD. What needs to be done to save the game (gameplay state is not as bad though). They're still full of rough methods, with random epic pieces of lore forecefully shoven where it shouldn't fit with 0 subtelty... But at least it'll just be better handled. and with a clear purpose in mind. And then... Why not stop trying to create brand new things coming from nowhere like Broken Isles and obviously "never" seen anywhere else, and put our interest on actual kingdoms that are already well integrated in the lore, and simply expand on them, which will of course lead to way more unique and passionate work for our enjoyment? Yep. BfA was peak, and Midnight... Maybe. And then once again we'll dive full back into Cosmology and WotLK fan-service... How? No one knows. But at least they've already achieved the hardest work. By far, Shadowlands nailed to build the most sensitive theme ever. Trying to create brand new and interesting cosmic realms of Life, Light, Void, and Arcane from scratch probably won't ever feel as complex. (... nor fascinating and investing?) Of course it's only a general intuition. Nothing can be forseen about the actual context we'll be in, only hopes that it's only gonna keep improving for the best... And maybe one day, we'll finally able to get a new Mists of Pandaria. The time when Blizzard, after they've killed hundreds of interesting character for marketing, finally realized they had in their hands the actual and only future Warcraft will ever get instead of Warcraft 4... So they tried to create a true piece of art, almost like the previous RTS; seriously working on writing, world building, consitency, even philosophy and poetry... Then, players whinned and we got WoD, losing everything. It started an endless loop of pressure and deception we never truly recovered of, especially with that last relapse. BTW Christ Metzen was basically working on StarCraft 2 and Diablo, then he came back, showcasted MoP on a golden with all his and then felt into depression and created WoD as well :D (Just compare the tone of 2011 BlizzCon and 2013. THAT was the true doom of WoW. But yeah, it's the past (or is it lololbronzedragon I need rest) time passed, and Metzen finally came back! ... A few years ago already. I have to say about SL that Jailer was the EXACT character I've always dreamed to exist ever since WotLK, to fix the braindead betrayal of the Lich King and Arthas characters (yeah, not the same thing), and the deus ex machina of Terenas and all... There HAD TO be some asshole god behind that... But they couldn't finish their work. So thanks anyway SL, you started good, then did your best with what you had, never submitting to the worst fanservices! o7 Dragonflight had no excuses about Covid or taking gameplay risks, it was just bad ideas from start to end, cut or not. WoD Junior.
Until you explained exactly what was happening in the Dawn of the Infinite dungeon I had no idea... This plays into what you've mentioned before about Dragonflight having an EXCELLENT Story, that is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find in the right order.
Yes! Anytime someone calls us “mortal” such and such! Booooo get better material!!! At the least, player characters are demigods. Slaying dragons, old gods, undead etc etc and handling incredible amounts of power such as legion artifacts, heart of Azeroth
Canonically it was armies of us killing raid bosses for the most part. Also many of those items were not ours or are now depleted. No player character ever had atiesh for example.
I'd just love to see a video where the new bad guy of the expansion does some actual research on the player character(s) and goes "Oh shit, oh shit, oh SHIT! This Mofo killed Deathwing, Azuregos, the Lich King, ALL the Old Gods, Kil'Jaeden AND Archimonde. Also some dude called "The Jailer", who the frick was that? What the hell am I going to do against such a badass motherhumper?".
An Antagonist needs to be significantly more "dangerous" than the Protagonist to allow for there being a story to tell, where the Protagonist has to overcome that gulf between them to win. It doesn't mean the Antagonist needs to be overpowered in all aspects. Just "better" in one that is, at the beginning of the story, too wide a gap for the "Good Guys" to see a way over. Superman is OP as hell. Yet his greatest nemesis has always been a human. Plain old human. Who had a brain. Lex. So us super badass Heroes of the Horde and Alliance, working together at times of crisis to save our shared world... we're OP as hell. Especially now. We've "seen to" everything from lesser Gods to First One created Construct Deities to Fruit-Loop-Insane Dragon Aspects... to trogs. Iridikron KNOWS we're tougher than he is if he went at us directly RIGHT NOW. He's just one dragon with infused Elemental powers. A danger to ONE of us heroes one on one. But not against a group. Even if all three remaining Incarnates joined up, there's STILL enough "Heroes of Azeroth" to see "right about them" with enough "mana left over to make snacks". His "advantage" is that knowledge, and having that knowledge and self-awareness? Makes him "potentially" dangerous. He's old as hell, saw the start of the whole mess, and is patient. And since he IS a dragon (an elemental being that gained a mortal form that can then be empowered by ANY or even ALL of the Six Forms of Magic)... his potential is extreme. The potential of any Dragon is just the same. Aspect or regular. Hell, we even saw it in a DRACTHYR, a mix of Dragon and Mortal not even Dragonkin and Drakonoids are. The POTENTIAL for Iridikron is something else... and above all else - he's wise enough to know his current limitations and what to do to get around that. When next we meet it may mean the old 40 man Raids have to return to deal with him (kidding... but nor really. I much preferred 40 mans to 25...). Intelligence alone is not enough. Knowledge alone is not enough. POWER alone is not enough. All you need is WISDOM in your own SELF knowledge and in how to USE what tools you have available. That makes an Antagonist TRUELY dangerous. Sauron, Lex Luther, Skynet... the greatest "potential" evils in literature and film have had WISDOM. Not perfect wisdom, but enough to make a gulf between them and their "righteous enemies" at the beginning seem overwhelming.
I'm at a point where my entire WoW experience is essentially watching Taliesin & Evitel's videos. Classic->BFA, skipped Shadowlands, Played a month of Dragonflight. Just can't back into it. On the plus side, I don't feel the irrational need to set up TSM anymore and feverishly check auctions and mail. Winning?
Zovaal is the WORST villain i have ever seen anywhere in pop culture. I am 51 now and have been reading books and playing games since i was like 5 or 6 years old and this "character" is basically the ULTIMATE in plot armor, he is completely consumed by his plan and all powerful in the maw but can't get past wearing the Hulk outfit in just pants and bare feet, he is just utterly ridiculous from beginning to end and they blew through like 3 expansions of story in one and we meet him and kill him a couple of patches later and we STILL KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HIM. I like that they had branching story with the different zones and factions but it was just one GIANT huge mess because the Jailer meets NONE of the plot armor he is given since there is ABSOLUTELY NO STORY around him other than the thinnest of story to make him "bad". Iridikron is EVERYTHING that the Jailer is not in almost every way possible. The Jailer is the ultimate in patient who waits for all the pieces to come together but doesn't really act on anything other than to get a few allies along the way, Iridikon has a PLAN that is going somewhere and setting things in motion to set up what is to come. And of course at the end of SL we still know NOTHING about what the Jailer was doing or why other than some HUGELY vague lines that have almost no meaning because nothing was explained at all.
“It was this guy all along!” type plot twists only work if we know and are invested in the character that it was. If they pulled that shit with like, a titan who we grew to know and trust over a hypothetical in-between-Legion-and-Shadowlands BFA replacement, and then Shadowlands started with that guy betraying us and revealing all the “Zovaal did it” nonsense I think it could’ve been amazing.
Best villain is Gul'dan. Without him, Warcraft wouldn't have existed so by extension WoW. And WoD Gul'dan was equally as impactful in bringing us Legion and by extension Illidan. Because of WoD Gul'dan, Legion, BfA, Shadowlands, *not Dragonflight* , but the expansions after that are also possible - since Gul'dan led to Sargeras stabbing the planet which will lead to the World Soul saga. Gul'dan, love him or hate him, has had more of an impact than any villain.
I love Iridikron because while yes, he's a big, powerful rock dragon, he's also the first real smart, tactical villain we've gotten in a while outside of Sargaeras. He doesn't win because of brute force, he outsmarts us, gives us an impossible choice: allow Murozond to come to power, or let Iridikron escape to continue with his terrible plans. He not only overpowers us, but outsmarts us. He used TIME to outsmart the BRONZE dragons! THE time dragons!! You can tell he's spent every single second imprisoned planning and scheming.
Agree with just about everything you said safe for one thing, the Jailer was "shoehorned in the story", as acording to what IAN told PREACH on his interview visit to Blizz they have been working at least one expansion over since Pandaria/Draenor which means by the time BFA was live Shadowlands was already on the works and the story very much planned Ahead, which unfortunately means it's just plain bad storytelling, so nothing new :)
Another point that I think is worth making is the actual character design; which, of course, is another point that I think Iridikron easily wins. I don't even reeeeeally hate the Jailer's nipple-man design, and I do think it's fairly effective at messaging that this is the Jailer at his lowest, a prisoner himself, literally stripped of his status which chains dangling around his body. Honestly, I like it a lot more than his 'Arbiter' appearance, which just seems to me like fairly run-of-the-mill death knight armor without much real messaging behind it. Could've been a lot cooler if his upgraded design actually looked ANGELIC instead, to more clearly show that he was THE top dog of the Shadowlands. Iridikron, meanwhile, has an extremely strong character design in both dragon and visage form. Admittedly, the dragon form isn't particularly unique compared to other earth dragons we see in the expansion, but they definitely make it look very big and imposing, especially with the horns. Also something to be said about how they actually got rid of the little proto-dragon arms people always make fun of, which makes him much harder to laugh at like Raszageth or Fyrakk were. His visage form contrasts the other two extremely well, and I love how physically imposing he is even when reduced to Fun Sized. The cloak, hood, and tail pauldron also all serve to make him appear very mysterious, and his face is rigid to make his expressions firm, and more importantly, give an image that the things he says are firm, strong and unbending. He's even got juuuust enough expressionism to OCCASIONALLY display emotion, like when he expresses the faintest bit of sadness upon realizing that Vyranoth would not stay on his side anymore.
The Jailer makes a lot more sense when you consider Blizzard narrative is derivative of other narrative. The Jailer is simply Tzeentch from Warhammer 40K. It doesn't matter what happens or why... "It's part of the plan". Like you called out, I think they just half-assed it so hard, nobody liked him.
I wonder will Iridikron and Xal'atath keep this mindset of "not underestimating players" in the next expac! Since Blizz can just do their usual shizz and just make them generic mustache-twirling baddies as they did with Garrosh. I think that Xal'atath has a lot of potential if she will play everyone like a fiddle - just like she did all these years as a knaifu, in addition to Iridicron "big-picture" they may actually... win. Wow have gone too far, if I'm rooting for the villains now - but we really need a "realm reborn" IMHO.
I get all this. I just disagree with two points. 1) The way you argue, Iridikron doesn't really has much of a personality. He is just around people with personalities who can play off his classic baddiness. 2) Are you absolutely sure Iridikron will be the main villain of the Worldsoul Saga and not Knaifu, the future Mrs Windrunner?
I'm still catching up on the end of the DF story, but as soon as they introduced the post-Raz baddies, Iridikron was my favorite. I was happy to hear he's going to be sticking around. One thing I've liked about this expansion in general is how the villain's motivates are so clear and make sense. Are they complex, nuanced motives? No, but I don't care. I don't need every villain to be Emet Selch; I just want to know what characters care about.
Hot Take: Zovaal was an amazing /insert/ into the game, and this analysis only solidifies it more for me. Was he a good baddy? no. lol. no. But do I enjoy his presence, and the trashfire it presents? absolutely. See, I can't not see him as a stand in for a certain former CEO that /asserted their dominance/ over Blizzard and very nearly destroyed Azeroth. In game, the jailer had a rather ignominious death. The parting of that CEO could be viewed in just the same way. The parallels between them is just...a little too uncanny in my humble, uneducated opinion. Stiil though, I think Zovaal's insertion in the game and what happened to him couldn't be more perfect.
Ya see, the outline of the Jailer's "5000 IQ Plan" is why I liked the lower stakes in Dragonflight. People who complain about the "lack of stakes" are quick to forget that after BfA and Shadowlands there was a large animus regarding world shaking and cosmic level events.
painfully bland with a boomy voice, let’s be honest Blizzard has done this to most of WoW villains since Cataclysm. It’s crazy how they keep wasting villain potential with the same formula, especially N’zoth. Like hire some distinctive voice actors, get Liam Neeson to play the baddy and loose the cringe talking of “mortals” every other sentence. Iridikron is an improvement though 👍
My issue with the Jailer is that he does appear dumb. While I agree, he is NOT playing 4d chess but playing the long opportunist game - why the hell did he not tell the other Eternal Ones what his issue is exactly? Or maybe he told the Primus but we don't get to hear it (that would play into the Primus-is-the-real-bad-theory). Same issue, we never got to know what he actually DID to "betray" the other Eternal Ones and his duty as Arbiter. No one ever told us what he actually did wrong, although it must have been really, really bad for them to punish him like they did. Blizzard failed to convey his motivation in the whole of SL, and in the moments where they could have (the ending, so way too late), they don't. They let him die and take his secret about whatever this great threat is to the grave with him. Why would he never have told anyone? And what did he actually do to be jailed in the first place? This makes me furious. If they would have just told this right, SL and this whole story could've been epic.
But Sylvanas was never part of the original plan, she was a "happy little accident" that came about from Arthas' reign of destruction which worked in the jailers favor. I feel like I understand the Jailers narrative and it does make sense for the most part, he just got wrapped up in 1 xpac instead of being apart of the lore like Arthas was for over a decade. Like watching star wars episodes 1-6 without watching the Clone Wars anime series. Just loads missing gaps in the lore/info. The Jailer was never part of any retcon btw. People throw that word around hap hazardously out of emotional spite. A retcon would be something like them giving Arthas black hair and saying it was like that all along. When everything else proves otherwise. Adding more information to lore is not a retcon. Otherwise John Snow's reveal to being a Targaryen would be considered a retcon. Its called intentional misleading by the writer. However I won't disagree that story info can be made up on the spot down the line and added in. But it can work as long as it DOSNT change existing story. The Jailer could of made more sense but they just left to many gaps in his story that made him super confusing. Otherwise I liked the jailer, he was just boring on a narrative level. Him suddenly being free caused him to get cocky and impatient after waiting how many thousands of years to get free? is one part that doesn't make sense to me. If they would of drug out his story for at least 2-3 xpacs he would of be a great villain imo. Any BIG baddy introduced and killed in the same xpac, is terrible game narrative. To me it could have been very believable that the jailer had been behind all the events of the legions uprising and downfall all along. However another part of the story that didn't make sense to me is Sylvanas joining the jailer after having a vendetta against Arthas who also served the jailer. She could of put the helmet on, instead of destroying it. Gaining its powers, on top of the crack that the jailer was already giving her, killed everyone and sent our souls to the maw. Instead of opening a path for us to go to the maw and stop the jailer. A Lich Queen Sylvanas story would of been better than going directly against the Big bad titan of the realm of death. The Lich Queen could of done what Arthas didn't, sent out the armies of the scourge to absolutely ravage Azeroth. We all know in Lore Arthas as the Lich King, held back his forces for the most part because he saw a bigger threat coming through the helm of domination, he just didn't know exactly what it was yet. Even when you're doing the Frost DK quests, and other legion order hall DK quests. There's quests with visions of Arthas that show he was searching to unlock more power to fight the coming storm. Even in hearthstone. There's 1 very specific dialogue option when you play as N'zoth warlock going against a paladin with the unlocked Pally OG Arthas. That mentions how the veil wans and his crown will open the way. I honestly want to see Arthas as the Lich King come back in a Thanos Endgame way. We already know there is an alternate timeline in which the Victorious Scourge rule over azeroth. Its not hard to believe he'd eventually find his way to more Azeroth's through domination over the bronze dragons. We also know Arthas has it in with the old gods through his link to Yogg'Saron. It'd be interesting if they somehow found a way to ensure his victory after his death. Similarly as to how Azshara was saved from death. Because N'zoth already knew Azshara would betray him eventually. Arthas could be in league with Yogg'Saron similarly to Azshara being in league in N'zoth. Also I feel like the Primus is the real secret villain of the shadowlands. It would pan out to be a good story if it turns out that way anyhow. He was supposedly the master tactician that never lost a single battle in countless ages and crafted the strongest armors and weapons in existence. I feel like his whole story we experienced was a ploy to take down the jailer cause he was the only one capable of leading against him. He could of framed the Jailer for all he know. Could of used the Jailer to meet his own goals and used him as a puppet without him knowing. Without us knowing. Cause we all know that all the cosmic forces are actively fighting for control to be the top dog cosmic force in the universe. Why would the pantheon of death be any different? I personally find Iridicron incredibly boring so far. Granted he has lore to go. My impressions of him so far are on the same level as Hogger being a threat..... Ever since we wrapped up some of the final OG villains in shadowlands (KT, Ner'zhul, Garrosh, Sylvanas). There's non left that compare. All the new ones are lame, dull, to quick, etc. villains that have had their story set up over a decade or two have had the most intrigue.
Im glad that we have villain that a. Has a good motivation. Weve had this before just not in a while. But more importantly for me this is the first time that weve had an antagonist whose asthetic wasnt SPIKES EVERYWHERE!!!. Also i love iridikrons model, that big hunch with the cape and the bandage as well? So good
I also love Iridikron because they made it known even BEFORE he was introduced that he was supposed to be the most "dangerous" and extreme of the Incarnates as Alexstrasza and Nozdormu had explained when giving exposition on the Vault of Incarnates. And then they show us the actions that Iridikron takes to see his plan go through, even having tortured Dracthyr of the Sundered Flame to get information that he wanted before going down to Zaralek to get this strange "Vessel". And when that scene is done and over with, we don't see him. Iridikron made himself scarce because he would have known that We, the mortals he said to be wary of, were going to be hot on his trail the moment we caught wind. We didn't see anything of him until Dawn of the Infinites. As Tal mentioned, the use of the Infinite Flight's goal of corrupting Nozdormu in order to present a choice between the lesser of two evils to let go was perfection... I'm willing to be that when we were fighting Iridikron the first time, he was expecting that to have been the first encounter because "These mortals wouldn't be stupid enough to let Deimos corrupt the Bronze Aspect. I may die here, but I will win in the end." And when he was going past us later, he might even have been able to piece together that he WAS able to be stopped the first time and that there WAS a first time. Which makes the reason for him choosing to retreat all the more important for himself and his own plans. Iridikron is a very clever Incarnate and I'm glad that Dragonflight didn't try to introduce a character as being "dangerous" and "extreme" or a "strategist" only for them to end up just like N'zoth.
We could have totally thwarted Iridikron's plans and destroyed his shiny relic, but he was far from defeated. The fight played out as a desperate struggle with only Chromie's overpowered magic keeping him from squashing us like bugs. And this is before he powers up with whatever he's working with the Void to get. :)
Speaking of the Jailer's most quoted dialogue, I forgot it was heard before in another MMO. Who said it better, the Jailer or Mehrunes Dagon (even delivered somewhat the same): ruclips.net/video/lrIxQRAu02c/видео.htmlsi=1DBWLZC3HuBwEo90&t=212
The one bit I don’t get in Dawn of the Infinites is… why can’t we just do both things? Like our Galakrond’s Fall selves should still be able to fight Iridikron, and then 30 minutes “later” our Murozond’s Rise selves show up at the same point in time to fight Deimos. Essentially having us in two places at once. We’ve seen past and future versions of ourselves interacting directly with us before so I don’t know if any time travel reason why that shouldn’t work. Just seems like it’s that way because that’s the result the story needed.
this mf really said shadowlands intro was cool. hell fuckin no it wasn't. it was beyond cringe, looked unfinished and I was wondering wtf was the point. I thought Baine was dying. no he just fell and literally lagged the entire expansion, of course jaina can overcome baddies in a realm she's never been in because FEMALE, then emasculated thrall comes out injured and without his weapon (AGAIN), let alone anduin just doing the holy thing again and still getting caught. Nothing in that scenario was done in a cool way, not even the dk's got screen time right.
Honestly I love Iridikron so far. I really like that his motivation isn't some grand scheme for taking over the world or 5D chess, but rather it's downright petty. He wants revenge, and he's let it consume him to the point he's willing to hurt those that were once important to him, hurt his home and his family, just to get it. I'm also hoping we'll see more of Fyrakk (I have a theory he'll come back as an elemental and that's definitely not just wishful thinking of course ;-;) too as I really just outright enjoyed him as a villain. He has a flair that a lot of WoW villains lack and I always find any scene he's in fun. (E.g. I never skip the scene after killing Smolderon where he thanks the player because I find it so fun how in that moment it's made obvious to us we just accidentally sped up his plans. I also love how he just outright mocks two of the bosses while we fight them.)
The Jailer wasn't THAT bad. I mean, the dude was trying to literally rewrite the rules of how life and death work. We never did learn exactly what his new format was going to be. Shadowlands was impacted big by Covid-19, a lot of the plot threads they planted didn't get fleshed out. I don't think that was the fault of bad writing.
I mean the jailer also being "I have never failed." Puts us to think on the 9D insterdrimensional chesscheckerspoker tournament as well... if he WAS an opportunist then it should be more like "All the seeds I have sown, all the gambits made finally it all pays off in this moment." So we can at least maybe get some short story or novel optics on things he tried that DIDN'T work. not "oh I never failed ever."
Hot take: The Jailer was as dogshit as he was because we only received like 25% of 9.1. The patch that was supposed to give his backstory. We never learned about the chains of domination. I am convinced the flashback at his death was supposed to be in 9.1 before we restore the Primus.
The biggest plot failure for me is the beginning of Shadowlands: The Jailor has already won! Think about it. The other shadowlands areas are being killed the the drought of souls. The heroes of Azeroth don't know anything about the shadowlands, nor do the titans or others for that matter, it's a closed system that generally only dead people enter. All the Jailor has to do is suck in enough souls to empower chains to get to the arbiter as he did in the second raid "expanding the maw" and he wins, he can pick off the tokens he needs from the dessicated husks of everyone else who's been starved for anima. All of creation is in checkmate and NOONE KNOWS ABOUT IT! Instead, for unknown reasons he kidnaps faction leaders (despite his servants supposedly being unable to escape the maw but that's hand waved in many places). Therefore drawing attention to himself and bringing us in to spoil it all.
Really Tali ? A stupid robot? While this whole video is flawed, I will stick to this point. Have we not learned in Zereth Mortis that a soul is required to create any of the eternal ones? We had to offer Pelagos’s soul to merge with an eternal vessel to create a new arbiter. Giving this, everyone is a stupid robot, Zovaal, Daddy D, Sylvanas and every mortal as well. As everyone is literally a soul in a flesh vessel. Why didn’t Denathrius turn into a robot when we defeated him? Probably because he did not die in Zereth Mortis, where death is not defined. Now some flesh vessels are born naturally, I think it couldn’t be the case for the pantheon of death because, in my opinion, their role is extremely important to the cosmos that they had to be created right away by the First Ones before anything else. Say hi to Evitel.
I don't think Iridikron is a better villian *yet*. So far, we've seen him sacrifice his own brother as a "distraction" and manipulate the infinite dragonflight into getting him a literal mcguffin. We know he hates the titans, but we don't actually know what he plans to do to about that hatred and he seemingly abandoned the idea of taking it out the dragon aspects when he let them "power up" and regain their strength throughout dragonflight. He's basically done all the same storybeats of the Jailer, where the only difference is that Iridikron will survive into the next expansion. So personally, I don't think Iridikron is any better than Zovaal, but is just being giving more time to flesh out the story in a way that the Jailer never was.
is it not too much to wish to fully understand God type being? And jailer was Ok, until last part, where it just died. All that mystery was Ok, but it build some very high expectation and at the there was nothing. That was huge disappointment, not jailers personality. And Iridikron maybe is aware of us and didn't wanted to rush, but at the end he still believe that no one will have power to kill him, so not really that much different from anyone else..
Such an unfair match up, but it is so true. I am so happy Iridikron wasn't a 1 and done antagonist like so many expansion villains. It's good to see WoW setting up a a much larger story that will span multiple expansions. The only other time they've done something like this is with WoD and Legion.
love the vid, but just fyi, tal: using the Black english signifier “gon’” but apparently not understanding what “get it” means in that same idiom has just led to you declaring that iridikron is going to have sexual relations with everyone who’s helped the titans. 😂
The Jailor could've been at least decent if we just got any evidence at all that he wasn't just made along with everything else in the shadowlands for that expansion. It's a problem all of that expansion suffers from. Like how have we never even had any hints towards the arbiter, ardenweald or the maw? We have undead characters! We have valkyr and necromancers and liches and death knights and a whole death cult and various gods of the dead we talk to and none of them ever mention a single thing from the shadowlands. If we want to believe that the Jailer's an opportunist who will keep trying to make this plan work for all eternity you can't just make it look like everything kinda worked out on his first attempt. We would've had to see ruins of places that look suspiciously like icecrown, old troll or vrykrul records of characters that seem suspicously like failed lich kings etc. That way we can actually believe that this has been an ongoing thing (not unlike how we don't really know what the titan's grand plan is, but we can believe that they've been working towards something to do with our world soul for forever)
I weirdly agree with all the points you made but still don't really like Iridikron as a main antagonist. My reason is that he never seems like a significant threat on par with the other big villains of the expansions. By being 1 of 3 it kinda feels like whatever menace he has is split 3 ways instead of being individually threatening. He kinda gets killed in a 5 man dungeon that's how little a threat he seems like. The Lich King felt like a real threat, Kiljaeden felt like a real threat, Deathwing felt like a real threat. There was a real sense of danger in finally fighting these characters. The Jailer kinda did have that degree of menace to him even if his place in the lore felt unearned. I get that not every expansion can be "OMG there's a massive threat to the entire world/universe" level bad guy to it but if you're gonna do an angry dragon as a big bad the scale and impact should be more in line with Deathwing than regular sized dragon fought in countless raids and 5 mans. There was a lot they did wrong about the final boss in Cataclysm but getting the size and magnitude of fighting Deathwing was something they absolutely nailed. Iridikron just feels too small potatoes. The Jailer had a big plan (that we never saw) and was a serious threat if he succeeded so it felt more important to stop him. Iridikron feels more like a Darth Vader than a Palpatine if that makes sense.
You can say Iridikron is better because he is more…grounded.
He’s down to earth for sure
His worries about us make sense since he's stuck between a rock and a hard place.
He's the bedrock for the next wow villains
He Rocks, man!
He definitely cultivates a somewhat stony demeanor.
gonna be real, I'd have always accepted Iridikron having a gravelly voice because... he's the Earth Incarnate
it was a missed opportunity to make them a female though.. All Earth guys are guys..
@@ninibupu No, did you forget about Princess Theradras? Or the Tauren's Earth Mother?
@@MatthewTheWanderer I did forget.
@@ninibupu I wish I could forget Theradras, lol
@@ninibupu you're so fucking right... we deserve gravel voice women
I really love how careful Iridikron is around the player character...it makes you feel like a badass when the villain has to work his plans around your actions and throw 2-3 big distractions at you, and even then they barely work (we actually beat him until we go back and stop Deios instead)
Favourite subtle dig 'The first time we see the jailer he is discarding Baine ... just like blizz.'
Baine better shine bright in this saga. Gnomes better do anything. It's kinda nuts that we're nearing the "end" of the story and there's so much left untapped. I just feel like we need something like class order halls for the races and race campaigns. Do it for classes too while you're at it, or incorporate the classes in the race campaigns. If you're a gnome mage you get different quests for some parts of the campaign that focuses on being a gnome mage. Will literally never happen, but that's my dream feature.
Baine has a whole horde questline in DF
@@hobosnake1The issue with class order halls for races is that it would make it a way, way more fragmented story than it already is unless you only tell relatively minor events, in Legion they tried to do that (and they did a pretty decent job at it) but still one of the major complaints around class halls at the time was how many stories you would miss unless you went out of your way to level an alt and play him through then current content for quite some time.
Having to play 10+ characters to see the whole story was quite insane, even more so when it's not just leveling them but playing them quite a bit through then current content, which is why to this day you can find a fair amount of people doing some classes questlines because they never got to at the time and I know it cause I was one of them, and every time I go back to do a class questline there was people doing campaigns.
Doing the same for all races alone already doubles the amount of different subplots, but if you then add more complexity by making them different depending on race _plus_ class it's on a whole different level to the point that for an MMO it just doesn't work.
@@hobosnake1 What might work instead is something along the lines of... lets call it multiraces campaigns with sprinkles of class identity. Now what do I mean by this? a Relatively relevant campaign that involves a huge portion of a continent, thus involving multiple races and factions that have communities on those zones.
For example, lets use Cataclysm as the revamp makes it easier to explain, imagine if the Hyjal campaign wasn't only limited to the Hyjal zone but the whole Northern Kalimdor? Maybe it could've started on Hyjal and then spread to zones like Ashenvale, Azshara or Winterspring. Then it would make for Orcs, Nelfs, Draeneis and even Goblins to lead that campaign, and then you could get a few classes to play it too like all Druids, Shamans and possibly Mages considering the Kirin Tors relationship with the Blue Dragons who care about Winterspring (maybe also DHs if they were playable at the time at the time), it could also be something even more simple like class flavour throughout the campaign, maybe if you are a Druid your "Gather allies" type-quest sends you to get Wild Gods, but if you are a Mage you go find blue dragons while also getting a comment about how other classes will gather other allies), maybe in a quest where you have to push against some fire elementals if you are a shaman or a fire mage you get a bonus that allows you to befriend some of the elementals, or if you are a frost mage you get to one shot them, and if you are a Druid you go with an ally cause the fire elementals counter you too hard.
This allows for people to play all the campaings with way less characters, and it's also way way easier, cheaper and faster than creating completely separate campaigns, it also allows a more cohesive story, as you either play through or are completely away of what's happening in the zones you are no in, I think this makes the world feel more alive but also allows you to live through it without a 20+ character roster chore list.
"Is he a dumb-looking robot?" I love this.
I just want to dissent on one thing: I never thought the Jailer looked cool. The instant I saw him, I just went "but that's just The Lich King. Again. They reinvented the lich king!" It felt almost embarrassing how they just gave him more spikes, just like how they redesigned Sylvanas to have more spikes, or how they introduced scourge architecture but with more bones, etc. It just felt like such a bare-faced attempt to appeal to fan nostalgia while at the same time paradoxically throwing the things people were nostalgic for out the wayside.
I remember when we had the first reveal and a lot of people were guessing the Jailer would turn out to be Kel'Thuzad because of how he looked then
“He is discarding Baine, just like Blizz.” Got me laughing way harder than I should have 😅 spot on!
I'm on team "Zovaal was manipulated by the Primus who is in cahoots with the Titans" so I think that he'll get a literary redemption arc when we get to the "the Titans are bad guys" part of the story. I'm looking forward to it. The Shadowlands story can still be turned into something decent in the grand scheme of things, if this is indeed the direction Blizz is going in.
If and ONLY if the First Ones aren't something new, but are entities we've known about for quite some time. Lore theorists will know what I'm talking about.
Im on the team: make shadowlands non-canon.
We dont know why the Zovaal wanted to reach the heart of the Sepulcher because he was being dominated by the Primus(the real Jailer). Thats why he has no personality. He acts just like emotionless Anduin when Anduin is dominated... If the Primus is in cahoots with the Titans and there's more untold lore there than the entirety of the Shadowlands and Zovaals plan could have been a way for the Titans to recreate the cosmos using the Heart of the Sepulcher or atleast control or destroy it.
That's the only - and a good way - to save that whole thing, yeah
@@nERVEcenter117 Please do tell me, i don't think i know which ones you mean
Anyone else notice that ZOVAALS specific music motif plays in TWW cinematic when the sword is revealed? The motif that only plays in the context of Zovaal? Man.
Oh i didnt, thats very interesting. So whatever is going on with the sword is very likely "the big bad" that was coming
Honestly, I have NEVER cared this much about characters or the narrative before. I loved all four of the primal dragons, especially Fyrakk. Everything about him was just so fun. I loved the blue dragonflight story. I literally cried at the nelf homecoming party (was a nelf for 12 years before switching mains). I even loved the little niffen guys and the exploration feeling you get with the dragonscale expedition.
Yes, say what you want about specific story beats or characterizations, but I think Dragonflight will be remembered mostly for Iridikron, which we'll probably look back fondly on!
R.I.P. Raszageth. The only one who achieved anything yet already forgotten. :'(
Also Fyrakk literally stole and switched their whole personalities in the book, making her looks like the crazy one (that's peak feminism!) and acting as if we was already supposed to be the last boss and totally not 4.2 Ragnaros before the 4.3... I mean, 10.3, I mean, 10.1.5.
I survived shadowlands.. but them dragons made me quit.
I have always loved that the Incarnates are worried about us, Fyrakk lost due to his own ego and want for destruction, Ice Queen (Can't spell her name) joined us as she realised the fight was pointless and life was better and FAMILY! Iridikron is the scheming and planning type which I love in a Villian where it feels like you have caught them but realise they were always 20 moves ahead
Do you mean Vyranoth when you say "Ice Queen"?
Plus their motivations are a lot more…. Relatable. I get why they are pissed at the Titans, Vyranoth’s scene where she frees the storm drakes from Odin is a prefect analogy to freeing the dragons as a whole from the titans. The fact that she views continuing the fight as not in the best interest of dragons which is her concern makes it strike home.
Vyranoth joined them why? After she was on prision for what it would be all eternity? Alexatra would have never relesed her by choise.
@@fredy2041 Are you having a stroke or are just dumb? There are a shocking amount of misspelled words in your comment!
@@fredy2041
Cus Fyrakk was going to burn the whole world.
The Jailer had so much potential. My fear with Iridikron is they still have to to make him just the impetus behind void stuff getting to Azeroth and he'll be done after that.
My hope is that we don’t defeat him in the World Soul Saga… He strikes me as the type of villain that always has an exit plan, and knows when to cut his losses, (or take the minor win over risking it all for the total victory), and escape.
He said he's gonna go to Northrend and wait for the titans to show up, Last Titan takes place in Northrend, he's gonna be a boss there. Three expansions to make him iconic, I think Metzen's got this.
It just occurs to me that Zovaal said his whole "cosmos divided" thing like a million years ago when we was imprisoned right? So he must've seen something imminent...so then did we miss it? Is it still coming all these years later? Then why was it urgent before?? Huh???
Because they’ve been doing what they’re doing for a long time? It wasn’t urgent. He just was ready and learned his lesson the last time he tried to explain himself. If you were trying to save the universe and got humiliated and hurt by your allies would you bother stopping for the misguided ants rallying to stop you
Also he is without his rune marks when saying this, and he is talking to right to the Primus, the “Runecarver” himself. This says it all to me. The Primus dominated Zovaal.
I thought he said this when we defeat him.
@@pocholo5177 the cutscene is a mix of when the others turned on him and us beating him. It’s unclear if he said it both times or just when we won but seems likely both
@@marcoprezotto I love thinking about all of this and speculating but part of me thinks we are overthinking it.
Ok i know its talking about lore but the thumbnail makes it look like its a boxing match and i love that
If she doesn't recognize Street Fighter 2 match up screen, she's too young for you
@@zom8680 yea i was born in 2002 and havent looked too much into street fighter although maybe thats why its familiar
This may be your best video ever
Well, you put your finger on the exact moment the Jailer lost me too. The whole "Pitiful mortal" scene. It's where it really became clear we shouldn't expect much from him, where it came to interesting villain. Honestly at some point I was convinced he was a misdirect. Being played by Denathrius, as his battering ram into Zereth Mortis, only to be betrayed.
Honestly, I was kind of hoping for back-and-forth between these two the whole expansion. More interactions with the eternal ones would’ve been nice too.
I’m not surprised that they didn’t play the make it personal for the player character card with the jailer though I mean they did just use it on Nzoth.
I love Iridikron. Best villain in a long time!
"The first time we see him, he's discarding Bain just like Blizz." LOL I CAN'T...
Jailer kinda got screwed with the game obviously being changed last minute and then ended early just like WoD to get out of it early
At least half the quests have us set up to seemingly not trust the death pantheon, then all of a sudden they're our best friends. This story was cut everywhere.
I do agree that Dragonflight had the better story and better vilians but it was also a complete game and didn't have a world shut down in the middle of it. Every story had time to play out at the speed that blizz wanted us to know the story. Everything had time to breath and was just fun to play so it makes the story experience feel even better
3:02 You know I just watched SypherPK do the same joke with Fortnite's Ice King (albeit in a video uploaded a year ago) but better (I know this is supposed to be a reference to the _Lich_ King but that's part of why SypherPK's version of the joke worked better)
"He's discarding Bane, just like Blizz"
Ouch
Shots fired lol
The Polybius behind you is amazing
I did a double take the first time I saw it in their new setup.
Or...OR - and this is likely the case - the design for The Jailer never changed. The first trailer showed The Jailer, the second trailer showed Zovaal. Because Zovaal is a puppet. He's not The Jailer, The Primus IS. The "master tactician/Sargeras" of the Shadowlands is and always was The Primus. That first trailer outline looks way more like The Primus than Zovaal. It's intentionally left as just an outline of his figure for a reason, and that reason isn't "Zovaal's design wasn't finalized yet." Name one time in WoW's history that the main villain of an expac wasn't finalized art wise in the reveal trailer for an expansion. I'll wait...forever. Illidan, Arthas', Deathwing. Everyone's design was known by Blizzard by the time they announced an expansion. This is no different. SL was one expansion where who we thought was the big bad actually wasn't the big bad. It's next level storytelling, and the moment Blizzard fully reveals this insanely amazing plot twist openly, everyone is going to change their mind about SL and call it one of the greatest expansion stories of all time. Just like when people talked shit on MoP and it's regarded as great all of sudden so to will SL. Gameplay means nothing, the story is what matters in WoW, and SL was S tier. It simply was too deep of a story for 99% of the playerbase who don't even care to read quest text, let alone use their brain to connect the subtle dots needed to comprehend SL's story and lore. SL's hate showed me just how dumb the playerbase truly is. We need more stories like that, and with Metzen back, you better bet your ass we're getting insane plot twists like that again. And the reason Zovaal seems so emotionless in all but one flashback, is additional proof he's being Dominated by The Primus, who invented Domination gear by the way. The runes are etched into Zovaal's body. Anduin and Arthas' both showed no emotion while Dominated. Zovaal being emotionless is absolutely on point with the narrative and this twist. DF's story was mid. Nothing amazing happened, a bunch of missed opportunities in the lore with Galakrond, Murozond, and Deathwing. The focus on the Incarnates was a misstep. They barely added anything to the overall lore. SL gave us a metric ton of new amazing lore that we'd been waiting for for over a decade. The only great thing about DF is Dragonriding, the S tier music, and a few fun raid fights. Story wise, lore wise, DF disappointed me. Can't wait to see the Worldsoul Saga play out. It's going to be legendary.
If the theory about the Primus proves true, then there may be more to the Jailer than we've seen so far that could make for more interesting development of his true character (even if he'd be no more than the Primus' puppet as a villain).
I hate how moisturized the graphics are in this expansion. Everything is made to look cuter like a Disney movie.
Iridikron: "I'm going to corrupt the planet to lure the Titans here, then see to their destruction."
The Jailer: "I'm going to unite the cosmos. Through domination. Rewriting reality to remove free will and make all suffer."
Zovaal managed to be the worst thing about his own expansion. And honestly worsened two previous ones too.
I guesd i would have to play dragonhugs but I think the Jailer if he wasnt a "9D" mastermind and was properly written he is better then.. some scaly.
But i personally dont like both of them as they just.. dont feel imposing
If only Dragon Ball Z Abridged's Buu Bits had came out while Shadowlands was in development. Because then the Jailer's first line could have been "Fucking morties"
"A divided cosmos will not survive what is to come.."
I believe is actually a brilliant nod and foreshadowing towards midnight and the void. Most of xal'ataths moves are COSMIC void. Zovaal was talking about the cosmos as a whole what if the first ones knew of the cosmic voids plans and knew what was eventually going to come to azeroth?
Once the World Soul Sage is finished, we will be pushing 10 years since Shadowlands.
One way or another, we will go back. We will discover the truth. Won't be for an entire expansion again however. The dead will come to us.
Love that Tali keeps going back to his "the Jailer was just an opportunist" theory despite it making _way_ less sense than the admittedly ridiculous "the jailer planned it all" theory.
As bad as the jailer was, while the "mastermind" version might feel unearned, the "opportunist" version of the character is somehow even worse.
I feel like if Shadowlands had some flashback cut scenes where events were shown to have been directly put into place by the jailer then that might have helped out the narrative to feel less like 5D chess. It was blizzard. Just wanted you to swallow, the whole storyline as presented and just accept the fact that this guy was secretly, the evil menace everybody should have been looking out for in the first place without any pretext
I hope they make Xal'atath a good evil villain who will be a satisfying defeat/kill, not that morally grey or villain-turns-ally crap that they pull with the other female characters just cause they're afraid to write an evil woman in 2024 and all the real villains are always men
I'm not sure how the Jailer gets 0/10 for "Are they a dumb looking robot?" - surely he nails this category, 10/10?
I'm here for the squarespace ads. The rest is also good though.
The best part of every video is Evi finding yet another, never-done-before way to say "This video is sponsored by Squarespace" :P
Can confirm Emet-Selch is waaaaay better than Fandaniel
Fandaniel made me want to chuck my monitor out the window!
What is the "Zovaal master plan," music?
I actually LOL'd at "Stony Boy versus Nipple King"
Great set up! I dig the behind the desk look but “dapper stool Tali” has the “pay attention folks it’s about to get real fam” feel, i like it!
in fairness if Iridikron had sounded like Joe Pasquale while hilarious might not bring the proper drama :P
We first heard of Iridikron from Alextraza when Wrathion found her. She said something about his hunger.
AU Guldan is also worried about the player characters
Not to forget that his final cinematic was just so... COOL!
I actually liked the dumb looking robot reveal...
Does Stoney dragon has nipples that can cut glass? No!
One point for Zoval!
On the deep evil voice point, Iridikron may be more tolerable because, as you point out, he's one of three and has the vocal variance of the other two to break the monotony.
But while it's boring having the same vocal profile time and time again, it's kinda realistic. These enemies are usually much, much larger than standard human size, so their larger vocal cords would lead to deeper voices.
True, all the dragons have deeper reverby voices in their true forms, and normal human speech in their visages
Love the Jailer Shadowlands lore summary
You blasphemed Jesus in this video I would be careful doing that.
And it came out of nowhere. So bad it makes me want to go back to church.
"He's discarding Baine, just like Blizz."
Ouch
quality of this vid is crazy! loving the new set up
The thing with WoW’s villains (as well as the hero NPC and “story”) in general is how everything fails because YOUR character never stands their ground when facing dilemmas or enemies. Your character always play second fiddle so I do not see how you can take WoW villains seriously if your character does not have any beef against them.
Comparing to FFXIV, Zenos (our combat-sexual friend-emy) makes it his main intent to fight you because only YOU give him the hunger and fun for fighting.
Zoval and Idiotkron don’t even interact with your character in the game’s story. I had Zenos (my enemy) steal my character’s body (Endwalker) to go slay all of my comrades (since your character is like a deity) and everyone in the camp.
Plus WoW cinematic scenes are so short that you can BARELY tell a story or know what’s going on. There’s hardly any character development for villains that I’ve seen.
I just wanna say, this is a fantastic video Tali. Funny af and honestly hits all the nails on their heads. Iridikron is an absolute badass and the cinematic during the epilogue quests was soooooo good. It was like proper super villain vibes
The only way Slands makes any sense is if the Primus is the real bad guy. He made the domination magic, he inscribed the runes on Zovaal and dominated him, he pulled the strings from Torghast, and we helped him make a new and improved Helm of Domination for the Arbiter. The domination runes disappear when Zovaal is freed, right before he is reverted to his robot mannequin form. That's why Zovaal sucks so bad, because he's just the puppet acting for the real master. We thought Zovaal was playing 4D chess, but in reality, it was the Primus playing 5D chess all along. The same kind of 5D chess game that we know Sire Denathrius is playing with the Dreadlords. IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES ANY SENSE!
Haha just a little cope.
Better guard that tree because she will return.
"Fandaniel is the worst, seriously fuck off Fandaniel."
Y'know I've said this for a while and gotten flack for it but I certainly feel like Fandaniel/Hermes was the Jailer for FFXIV. Came outta left field, claimed responsibility for _EVERYTHING_ leading up to him, and is just plain _insufferable_ as a character.
Of course Iridikron is better since he was written after the mistakes with Zovaal to not do them again. And i believe Zovaal's motives lack context that would've/will make sense in the future. Let's say the Titans imprisond the Universe especially Azeroth who is a Titan/First One of Creation or whatever and controlled/used by them. We learn this from Azeroth herself, ally with Iridikron, kill all the Titans and their and free Azeroth. Then Illidan, Mediev and Sargeras come back and tell us about he bigger scale of Titan facilities and conspiracies. Sargeras was always right and is happy that the plans of him and his best buddy Zovaal have worked. They weakened the prison we and Azeroth were in and even rescued her. Tada, Zovaal, Sargeras and Iridikron being the good guys. With very problematic methods, but good intentions. But we don't have such context yet
What is to come = Microsoft
WAIT WHAT
Nothing says terrible writing like "You've never met me, but I'm behind everything everywhere ever to ever happen." When Ion is gone, it will be a great day for WoW.
I liked when Warcraft characters were humanoids instead of gods, titans, and dragons cosplaying as humans
Fyrakk: Am I a joke to you? (I am indeed one!)
Raszageth: You son of a fish come back here!! In one book you stole my whole personality after I brained those mortals and gave my life to free you. And you want people to remember me as the crazy one?! (yep, that's peak feminism right here)
Bolvar and Alextrasza: * *Gently swinging on their rocking chair, under the rain, still waiting for the slighest development of their own character and faction during their own expansion.* * "We are tomato red!"0
It's so obvious Blizzard drastically cut DF content again. And unlike SL and BfA, it has been handled extremely messy (but no one cared about this lore anymore anyway, so it doesn't look "as bad") But oh boy we felt from high grounds. It's almost worst than WoD (or WotLK) It's full of bad joke and nonsensical quests without start nor end. They obviously cut the 10.3 and Deathw- I mean Iridikron, to shove him in the 10.1.5. They couldn't even follow properly Cataclysm patches they were actively auto-plagiarizing (and they were openly proud of their methods!), putting Ragna- I mean Fyrakk as a last minute final boss.
I feel like Midnight will be like Legion was for WoD. What needs to be done to save the game (gameplay state is not as bad though). They're still full of rough methods, with random epic pieces of lore forecefully shoven where it shouldn't fit with 0 subtelty... But at least it'll just be better handled. and with a clear purpose in mind.
And then... Why not stop trying to create brand new things coming from nowhere like Broken Isles and obviously "never" seen anywhere else, and put our interest on actual kingdoms that are already well integrated in the lore, and simply expand on them, which will of course lead to way more unique and passionate work for our enjoyment? Yep. BfA was peak, and Midnight... Maybe. And then once again we'll dive full back into Cosmology and WotLK fan-service... How? No one knows. But at least they've already achieved the hardest work. By far, Shadowlands nailed to build the most sensitive theme ever. Trying to create brand new and interesting cosmic realms of Life, Light, Void, and Arcane from scratch probably won't ever feel as complex. (... nor fascinating and investing?)
Of course it's only a general intuition. Nothing can be forseen about the actual context we'll be in, only hopes that it's only gonna keep improving for the best... And maybe one day, we'll finally able to get a new Mists of Pandaria. The time when Blizzard, after they've killed hundreds of interesting character for marketing, finally realized they had in their hands the actual and only future Warcraft will ever get instead of Warcraft 4... So they tried to create a true piece of art, almost like the previous RTS; seriously working on writing, world building, consitency, even philosophy and poetry... Then, players whinned and we got WoD, losing everything. It started an endless loop of pressure and deception we never truly recovered of, especially with that last relapse.
BTW Christ Metzen was basically working on StarCraft 2 and Diablo, then he came back, showcasted MoP on a golden with all his and then felt into depression and created WoD as well :D (Just compare the tone of 2011 BlizzCon and 2013. THAT was the true doom of WoW. But yeah, it's the past (or is it lololbronzedragon I need rest) time passed, and Metzen finally came back! ... A few years ago already.
I have to say about SL that Jailer was the EXACT character I've always dreamed to exist ever since WotLK, to fix the braindead betrayal of the Lich King and Arthas characters (yeah, not the same thing), and the deus ex machina of Terenas and all... There HAD TO be some asshole god behind that... But they couldn't finish their work. So thanks anyway SL, you started good, then did your best with what you had, never submitting to the worst fanservices! o7 Dragonflight had no excuses about Covid or taking gameplay risks, it was just bad ideas from start to end, cut or not. WoD Junior.
Until you explained exactly what was happening in the Dawn of the Infinite dungeon I had no idea... This plays into what you've mentioned before about Dragonflight having an EXCELLENT Story, that is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to find in the right order.
Yes! Anytime someone calls us “mortal” such and such! Booooo get better material!!!
At the least, player characters are demigods. Slaying dragons, old gods, undead etc etc and handling incredible amounts of power such as legion artifacts, heart of Azeroth
Canonically it was armies of us killing raid bosses for the most part. Also many of those items were not ours or are now depleted. No player character ever had atiesh for example.
I'd just love to see a video where the new bad guy of the expansion does some actual research on the player character(s) and goes "Oh shit, oh shit, oh SHIT! This Mofo killed Deathwing, Azuregos, the Lich King, ALL the Old Gods, Kil'Jaeden AND Archimonde. Also some dude called "The Jailer", who the frick was that? What the hell am I going to do against such a badass motherhumper?".
An Antagonist needs to be significantly more "dangerous" than the Protagonist to allow for there being a story to tell, where the Protagonist has to overcome that gulf between them to win.
It doesn't mean the Antagonist needs to be overpowered in all aspects. Just "better" in one that is, at the beginning of the story, too wide a gap for the "Good Guys" to see a way over.
Superman is OP as hell. Yet his greatest nemesis has always been a human. Plain old human. Who had a brain. Lex.
So us super badass Heroes of the Horde and Alliance, working together at times of crisis to save our shared world... we're OP as hell. Especially now. We've "seen to" everything from lesser Gods to First One created Construct Deities to Fruit-Loop-Insane Dragon Aspects... to trogs. Iridikron KNOWS we're tougher than he is if he went at us directly RIGHT NOW. He's just one dragon with infused Elemental powers. A danger to ONE of us heroes one on one. But not against a group. Even if all three remaining Incarnates joined up, there's STILL enough "Heroes of Azeroth" to see "right about them" with enough "mana left over to make snacks".
His "advantage" is that knowledge, and having that knowledge and self-awareness? Makes him "potentially" dangerous. He's old as hell, saw the start of the whole mess, and is patient. And since he IS a dragon (an elemental being that gained a mortal form that can then be empowered by ANY or even ALL of the Six Forms of Magic)... his potential is extreme.
The potential of any Dragon is just the same. Aspect or regular. Hell, we even saw it in a DRACTHYR, a mix of Dragon and Mortal not even Dragonkin and Drakonoids are. The POTENTIAL for Iridikron is something else... and above all else - he's wise enough to know his current limitations and what to do to get around that.
When next we meet it may mean the old 40 man Raids have to return to deal with him (kidding... but nor really. I much preferred 40 mans to 25...).
Intelligence alone is not enough. Knowledge alone is not enough. POWER alone is not enough. All you need is WISDOM in your own SELF knowledge and in how to USE what tools you have available.
That makes an Antagonist TRUELY dangerous. Sauron, Lex Luther, Skynet... the greatest "potential" evils in literature and film have had WISDOM. Not perfect wisdom, but enough to make a gulf between them and their "righteous enemies" at the beginning seem overwhelming.
I'm at a point where my entire WoW experience is essentially watching Taliesin & Evitel's videos. Classic->BFA, skipped Shadowlands, Played a month of Dragonflight. Just can't back into it. On the plus side, I don't feel the irrational need to set up TSM anymore and feverishly check auctions and mail. Winning?
Zovaal is the WORST villain i have ever seen anywhere in pop culture. I am 51 now and have been reading books and playing games since i was like 5 or 6 years old and this "character" is basically the ULTIMATE in plot armor, he is completely consumed by his plan and all powerful in the maw but can't get past wearing the Hulk outfit in just pants and bare feet, he is just utterly ridiculous from beginning to end and they blew through like 3 expansions of story in one and we meet him and kill him a couple of patches later and we STILL KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HIM. I like that they had branching story with the different zones and factions but it was just one GIANT huge mess because the Jailer meets NONE of the plot armor he is given since there is ABSOLUTELY NO STORY around him other than the thinnest of story to make him "bad". Iridikron is EVERYTHING that the Jailer is not in almost every way possible. The Jailer is the ultimate in patient who waits for all the pieces to come together but doesn't really act on anything other than to get a few allies along the way, Iridikon has a PLAN that is going somewhere and setting things in motion to set up what is to come. And of course at the end of SL we still know NOTHING about what the Jailer was doing or why other than some HUGELY vague lines that have almost no meaning because nothing was explained at all.
First time I saw the Jailer, I thought he was going to shove Baine in his chest hole. Which, to fair, would have been pretty cool.
“It was this guy all along!” type plot twists only work if we know and are invested in the character that it was. If they pulled that shit with like, a titan who we grew to know and trust over a hypothetical in-between-Legion-and-Shadowlands BFA replacement, and then Shadowlands started with that guy betraying us and revealing all the “Zovaal did it” nonsense I think it could’ve been amazing.
Best villain is Gul'dan. Without him, Warcraft wouldn't have existed so by extension WoW. And WoD Gul'dan was equally as impactful in bringing us Legion and by extension Illidan. Because of WoD Gul'dan, Legion, BfA, Shadowlands, *not Dragonflight* , but the expansions after that are also possible - since Gul'dan led to Sargeras stabbing the planet which will lead to the World Soul saga. Gul'dan, love him or hate him, has had more of an impact than any villain.
I love Iridikron because while yes, he's a big, powerful rock dragon, he's also the first real smart, tactical villain we've gotten in a while outside of Sargaeras. He doesn't win because of brute force, he outsmarts us, gives us an impossible choice: allow Murozond to come to power, or let Iridikron escape to continue with his terrible plans. He not only overpowers us, but outsmarts us. He used TIME to outsmart the BRONZE dragons! THE time dragons!! You can tell he's spent every single second imprisoned planning and scheming.
Agree with just about everything you said safe for one thing, the Jailer was "shoehorned in the story", as acording to what IAN told PREACH on his interview visit to Blizz they have been working at least one expansion over since Pandaria/Draenor which means by the time BFA was live Shadowlands was already on the works and the story very much planned Ahead, which unfortunately means it's just plain bad storytelling, so nothing new :)
Another point that I think is worth making is the actual character design; which, of course, is another point that I think Iridikron easily wins.
I don't even reeeeeally hate the Jailer's nipple-man design, and I do think it's fairly effective at messaging that this is the Jailer at his lowest, a prisoner himself, literally stripped of his status which chains dangling around his body. Honestly, I like it a lot more than his 'Arbiter' appearance, which just seems to me like fairly run-of-the-mill death knight armor without much real messaging behind it. Could've been a lot cooler if his upgraded design actually looked ANGELIC instead, to more clearly show that he was THE top dog of the Shadowlands.
Iridikron, meanwhile, has an extremely strong character design in both dragon and visage form. Admittedly, the dragon form isn't particularly unique compared to other earth dragons we see in the expansion, but they definitely make it look very big and imposing, especially with the horns. Also something to be said about how they actually got rid of the little proto-dragon arms people always make fun of, which makes him much harder to laugh at like Raszageth or Fyrakk were. His visage form contrasts the other two extremely well, and I love how physically imposing he is even when reduced to Fun Sized. The cloak, hood, and tail pauldron also all serve to make him appear very mysterious, and his face is rigid to make his expressions firm, and more importantly, give an image that the things he says are firm, strong and unbending. He's even got juuuust enough expressionism to OCCASIONALLY display emotion, like when he expresses the faintest bit of sadness upon realizing that Vyranoth would not stay on his side anymore.
The Jailer makes a lot more sense when you consider Blizzard narrative is derivative of other narrative. The Jailer is simply Tzeentch from Warhammer 40K. It doesn't matter what happens or why... "It's part of the plan". Like you called out, I think they just half-assed it so hard, nobody liked him.
I wonder will Iridikron and Xal'atath keep this mindset of "not underestimating players" in the next expac! Since Blizz can just do their usual shizz and just make them generic mustache-twirling baddies as they did with Garrosh. I think that Xal'atath has a lot of potential if she will play everyone like a fiddle - just like she did all these years as a knaifu, in addition to Iridicron "big-picture" they may actually... win. Wow have gone too far, if I'm rooting for the villains now - but we really need a "realm reborn" IMHO.
I get all this. I just disagree with two points.
1) The way you argue, Iridikron doesn't really has much of a personality. He is just around people with personalities who can play off his classic baddiness.
2) Are you absolutely sure Iridikron will be the main villain of the Worldsoul Saga and not Knaifu, the future Mrs Windrunner?
I'm still catching up on the end of the DF story, but as soon as they introduced the post-Raz baddies, Iridikron was my favorite. I was happy to hear he's going to be sticking around. One thing I've liked about this expansion in general is how the villain's motivates are so clear and make sense. Are they complex, nuanced motives? No, but I don't care. I don't need every villain to be Emet Selch; I just want to know what characters care about.
Hot Take: Zovaal was an amazing /insert/ into the game, and this analysis only solidifies it more for me.
Was he a good baddy? no. lol. no. But do I enjoy his presence, and the trashfire it presents? absolutely.
See, I can't not see him as a stand in for a certain former CEO that /asserted their dominance/ over Blizzard and very nearly destroyed Azeroth.
In game, the jailer had a rather ignominious death. The parting of that CEO could be viewed in just the same way.
The parallels between them is just...a little too uncanny in my humble, uneducated opinion.
Stiil though, I think Zovaal's insertion in the game and what happened to him couldn't be more perfect.
Ya see, the outline of the Jailer's "5000 IQ Plan" is why I liked the lower stakes in Dragonflight. People who complain about the "lack of stakes" are quick to forget that after BfA and Shadowlands there was a large animus regarding world shaking and cosmic level events.
painfully bland with a boomy voice, let’s be honest Blizzard has done this to most of WoW villains since Cataclysm. It’s crazy how they keep wasting villain potential with the same formula, especially N’zoth. Like hire some distinctive voice actors, get Liam Neeson to play the baddy and loose the cringe talking of “mortals” every other sentence. Iridikron is an improvement though 👍
My issue with the Jailer is that he does appear dumb. While I agree, he is NOT playing 4d chess but playing the long opportunist game - why the hell did he not tell the other Eternal Ones what his issue is exactly? Or maybe he told the Primus but we don't get to hear it (that would play into the Primus-is-the-real-bad-theory). Same issue, we never got to know what he actually DID to "betray" the other Eternal Ones and his duty as Arbiter. No one ever told us what he actually did wrong, although it must have been really, really bad for them to punish him like they did.
Blizzard failed to convey his motivation in the whole of SL, and in the moments where they could have (the ending, so way too late), they don't. They let him die and take his secret about whatever this great threat is to the grave with him. Why would he never have told anyone? And what did he actually do to be jailed in the first place? This makes me furious.
If they would have just told this right, SL and this whole story could've been epic.
But Sylvanas was never part of the original plan, she was a "happy little accident" that came about from Arthas' reign of destruction which worked in the jailers favor. I feel like I understand the Jailers narrative and it does make sense for the most part, he just got wrapped up in 1 xpac instead of being apart of the lore like Arthas was for over a decade. Like watching star wars episodes 1-6 without watching the Clone Wars anime series. Just loads missing gaps in the lore/info.
The Jailer was never part of any retcon btw. People throw that word around hap hazardously out of emotional spite. A retcon would be something like them giving Arthas black hair and saying it was like that all along. When everything else proves otherwise. Adding more information to lore is not a retcon. Otherwise John Snow's reveal to being a Targaryen would be considered a retcon. Its called intentional misleading by the writer. However I won't disagree that story info can be made up on the spot down the line and added in. But it can work as long as it DOSNT change existing story.
The Jailer could of made more sense but they just left to many gaps in his story that made him super confusing. Otherwise I liked the jailer, he was just boring on a narrative level. Him suddenly being free caused him to get cocky and impatient after waiting how many thousands of years to get free? is one part that doesn't make sense to me. If they would of drug out his story for at least 2-3 xpacs he would of be a great villain imo. Any BIG baddy introduced and killed in the same xpac, is terrible game narrative.
To me it could have been very believable that the jailer had been behind all the events of the legions uprising and downfall all along. However another part of the story that didn't make sense to me is Sylvanas joining the jailer after having a vendetta against Arthas who also served the jailer. She could of put the helmet on, instead of destroying it. Gaining its powers, on top of the crack that the jailer was already giving her, killed everyone and sent our souls to the maw. Instead of opening a path for us to go to the maw and stop the jailer. A Lich Queen Sylvanas story would of been better than going directly against the Big bad titan of the realm of death. The Lich Queen could of done what Arthas didn't, sent out the armies of the scourge to absolutely ravage Azeroth. We all know in Lore Arthas as the Lich King, held back his forces for the most part because he saw a bigger threat coming through the helm of domination, he just didn't know exactly what it was yet. Even when you're doing the Frost DK quests, and other legion order hall DK quests. There's quests with visions of Arthas that show he was searching to unlock more power to fight the coming storm. Even in hearthstone. There's 1 very specific dialogue option when you play as N'zoth warlock going against a paladin with the unlocked Pally OG Arthas. That mentions how the veil wans and his crown will open the way.
I honestly want to see Arthas as the Lich King come back in a Thanos Endgame way. We already know there is an alternate timeline in which the Victorious Scourge rule over azeroth. Its not hard to believe he'd eventually find his way to more Azeroth's through domination over the bronze dragons. We also know Arthas has it in with the old gods through his link to Yogg'Saron. It'd be interesting if they somehow found a way to ensure his victory after his death. Similarly as to how Azshara was saved from death. Because N'zoth already knew Azshara would betray him eventually. Arthas could be in league with Yogg'Saron similarly to Azshara being in league in N'zoth.
Also I feel like the Primus is the real secret villain of the shadowlands. It would pan out to be a good story if it turns out that way anyhow. He was supposedly the master tactician that never lost a single battle in countless ages and crafted the strongest armors and weapons in existence. I feel like his whole story we experienced was a ploy to take down the jailer cause he was the only one capable of leading against him. He could of framed the Jailer for all he know. Could of used the Jailer to meet his own goals and used him as a puppet without him knowing. Without us knowing. Cause we all know that all the cosmic forces are actively fighting for control to be the top dog cosmic force in the universe. Why would the pantheon of death be any different?
I personally find Iridicron incredibly boring so far. Granted he has lore to go. My impressions of him so far are on the same level as Hogger being a threat..... Ever since we wrapped up some of the final OG villains in shadowlands (KT, Ner'zhul, Garrosh, Sylvanas). There's non left that compare. All the new ones are lame, dull, to quick, etc. villains that have had their story set up over a decade or two have had the most intrigue.
Im glad that we have villain that a. Has a good motivation. Weve had this before just not in a while.
But more importantly for me this is the first time that weve had an antagonist whose asthetic wasnt SPIKES EVERYWHERE!!!. Also i love iridikrons model, that big hunch with the cape and the bandage as well? So good
I also love Iridikron because they made it known even BEFORE he was introduced that he was supposed to be the most "dangerous" and extreme of the Incarnates as Alexstrasza and Nozdormu had explained when giving exposition on the Vault of Incarnates. And then they show us the actions that Iridikron takes to see his plan go through, even having tortured Dracthyr of the Sundered Flame to get information that he wanted before going down to Zaralek to get this strange "Vessel". And when that scene is done and over with, we don't see him. Iridikron made himself scarce because he would have known that We, the mortals he said to be wary of, were going to be hot on his trail the moment we caught wind. We didn't see anything of him until Dawn of the Infinites. As Tal mentioned, the use of the Infinite Flight's goal of corrupting Nozdormu in order to present a choice between the lesser of two evils to let go was perfection...
I'm willing to be that when we were fighting Iridikron the first time, he was expecting that to have been the first encounter because "These mortals wouldn't be stupid enough to let Deimos corrupt the Bronze Aspect. I may die here, but I will win in the end." And when he was going past us later, he might even have been able to piece together that he WAS able to be stopped the first time and that there WAS a first time. Which makes the reason for him choosing to retreat all the more important for himself and his own plans. Iridikron is a very clever Incarnate and I'm glad that Dragonflight didn't try to introduce a character as being "dangerous" and "extreme" or a "strategist" only for them to end up just like N'zoth.
We could have totally thwarted Iridikron's plans and destroyed his shiny relic, but he was far from defeated. The fight played out as a desperate struggle with only Chromie's overpowered magic keeping him from squashing us like bugs.
And this is before he powers up with whatever he's working with the Void to get. :)
Speaking of the Jailer's most quoted dialogue, I forgot it was heard before in another MMO. Who said it better, the Jailer or Mehrunes Dagon (even delivered somewhat the same): ruclips.net/video/lrIxQRAu02c/видео.htmlsi=1DBWLZC3HuBwEo90&t=212
The one bit I don’t get in Dawn of the Infinites is… why can’t we just do both things? Like our Galakrond’s Fall selves should still be able to fight Iridikron, and then 30 minutes “later” our Murozond’s Rise selves show up at the same point in time to fight Deimos. Essentially having us in two places at once. We’ve seen past and future versions of ourselves interacting directly with us before so I don’t know if any time travel reason why that shouldn’t work. Just seems like it’s that way because that’s the result the story needed.
this mf really said shadowlands intro was cool. hell fuckin no it wasn't. it was beyond cringe, looked unfinished and I was wondering wtf was the point. I thought Baine was dying. no he just fell and literally lagged the entire expansion, of course jaina can overcome baddies in a realm she's never been in because FEMALE, then emasculated thrall comes out injured and without his weapon (AGAIN), let alone anduin just doing the holy thing again and still getting caught. Nothing in that scenario was done in a cool way, not even the dk's got screen time right.
Honestly I love Iridikron so far. I really like that his motivation isn't some grand scheme for taking over the world or 5D chess, but rather it's downright petty. He wants revenge, and he's let it consume him to the point he's willing to hurt those that were once important to him, hurt his home and his family, just to get it. I'm also hoping we'll see more of Fyrakk (I have a theory he'll come back as an elemental and that's definitely not just wishful thinking of course ;-;) too as I really just outright enjoyed him as a villain. He has a flair that a lot of WoW villains lack and I always find any scene he's in fun. (E.g. I never skip the scene after killing Smolderon where he thanks the player because I find it so fun how in that moment it's made obvious to us we just accidentally sped up his plans. I also love how he just outright mocks two of the bosses while we fight them.)
The Jailer wasn't THAT bad. I mean, the dude was trying to literally rewrite the rules of how life and death work. We never did learn exactly what his new format was going to be.
Shadowlands was impacted big by Covid-19, a lot of the plot threads they planted didn't get fleshed out. I don't think that was the fault of bad writing.
I mean the jailer also being "I have never failed." Puts us to think on the 9D insterdrimensional chesscheckerspoker tournament as well... if he WAS an opportunist then it should be more like "All the seeds I have sown, all the gambits made finally it all pays off in this moment." So we can at least maybe get some short story or novel optics on things he tried that DIDN'T work. not "oh I never failed ever."
I couldn't agree more with your assessment. Robot Satan annoyed me and my beard.
Hot take: The Jailer was as dogshit as he was because we only received like 25% of 9.1. The patch that was supposed to give his backstory. We never learned about the chains of domination. I am convinced the flashback at his death was supposed to be in 9.1 before we restore the Primus.
The biggest plot failure for me is the beginning of Shadowlands: The Jailor has already won!
Think about it. The other shadowlands areas are being killed the the drought of souls. The heroes of Azeroth don't know anything about the shadowlands, nor do the titans or others for that matter, it's a closed system that generally only dead people enter. All the Jailor has to do is suck in enough souls to empower chains to get to the arbiter as he did in the second raid "expanding the maw" and he wins, he can pick off the tokens he needs from the dessicated husks of everyone else who's been starved for anima. All of creation is in checkmate and NOONE KNOWS ABOUT IT!
Instead, for unknown reasons he kidnaps faction leaders (despite his servants supposedly being unable to escape the maw but that's hand waved in many places). Therefore drawing attention to himself and bringing us in to spoil it all.
Really Tali ? A stupid robot? While this whole video is flawed, I will stick to this point. Have we not learned in Zereth Mortis that a soul is required to create any of the eternal ones? We had to offer Pelagos’s soul to merge with an eternal vessel to create a new arbiter. Giving this, everyone is a stupid robot, Zovaal, Daddy D, Sylvanas and every mortal as well. As everyone is literally a soul in a flesh vessel. Why didn’t Denathrius turn into a robot when we defeated him? Probably because he did not die in Zereth Mortis, where death is not defined. Now some flesh vessels are born naturally, I think it couldn’t be the case for the pantheon of death because, in my opinion, their role is extremely important to the cosmos that they had to be created right away by the First Ones before anything else. Say hi to Evitel.
I don't think Iridikron is a better villian *yet*. So far, we've seen him sacrifice his own brother as a "distraction" and manipulate the infinite dragonflight into getting him a literal mcguffin. We know he hates the titans, but we don't actually know what he plans to do to about that hatred and he seemingly abandoned the idea of taking it out the dragon aspects when he let them "power up" and regain their strength throughout dragonflight. He's basically done all the same storybeats of the Jailer, where the only difference is that Iridikron will survive into the next expansion.
So personally, I don't think Iridikron is any better than Zovaal, but is just being giving more time to flesh out the story in a way that the Jailer never was.
is it not too much to wish to fully understand God type being? And jailer was Ok, until last part, where it just died. All that mystery was Ok, but it build some very high expectation and at the there was nothing. That was huge disappointment, not jailers personality. And Iridikron maybe is aware of us and didn't wanted to rush, but at the end he still believe that no one will have power to kill him, so not really that much different from anyone else..
Such an unfair match up, but it is so true. I am so happy Iridikron wasn't a 1 and done antagonist like so many expansion villains. It's good to see WoW setting up a a much larger story that will span multiple expansions. The only other time they've done something like this is with WoD and Legion.
love the vid, but just fyi, tal: using the Black english signifier “gon’” but apparently not understanding what “get it” means in that same idiom has just led to you declaring that iridikron is going to have sexual relations with everyone who’s helped the titans. 😂
The Jailor could've been at least decent if we just got any evidence at all that he wasn't just made along with everything else in the shadowlands for that expansion. It's a problem all of that expansion suffers from. Like how have we never even had any hints towards the arbiter, ardenweald or the maw? We have undead characters! We have valkyr and necromancers and liches and death knights and a whole death cult and various gods of the dead we talk to and none of them ever mention a single thing from the shadowlands.
If we want to believe that the Jailer's an opportunist who will keep trying to make this plan work for all eternity you can't just make it look like everything kinda worked out on his first attempt. We would've had to see ruins of places that look suspiciously like icecrown, old troll or vrykrul records of characters that seem suspicously like failed lich kings etc. That way we can actually believe that this has been an ongoing thing (not unlike how we don't really know what the titan's grand plan is, but we can believe that they've been working towards something to do with our world soul for forever)
I weirdly agree with all the points you made but still don't really like Iridikron as a main antagonist. My reason is that he never seems like a significant threat on par with the other big villains of the expansions. By being 1 of 3 it kinda feels like whatever menace he has is split 3 ways instead of being individually threatening. He kinda gets killed in a 5 man dungeon that's how little a threat he seems like. The Lich King felt like a real threat, Kiljaeden felt like a real threat, Deathwing felt like a real threat. There was a real sense of danger in finally fighting these characters. The Jailer kinda did have that degree of menace to him even if his place in the lore felt unearned. I get that not every expansion can be "OMG there's a massive threat to the entire world/universe" level bad guy to it but if you're gonna do an angry dragon as a big bad the scale and impact should be more in line with Deathwing than regular sized dragon fought in countless raids and 5 mans. There was a lot they did wrong about the final boss in Cataclysm but getting the size and magnitude of fighting Deathwing was something they absolutely nailed. Iridikron just feels too small potatoes. The Jailer had a big plan (that we never saw) and was a serious threat if he succeeded so it felt more important to stop him. Iridikron feels more like a Darth Vader than a Palpatine if that makes sense.