John Surtees said out of all the cars he had driven in his career, that’s the only one that truly terrified him. It was twitchy, unstable, and always felt like it was bound to lose control at any second. He told Honda that car is going to get someone killed, and it wasn’t going to be him.
That's not all to admire him for & his career; in so many ways he told Enzo (Ferrari) to go pound sand after the old man took the team manager's word over Surtees about him being permitted to give it a go at Le Mans in 1966. Thanks for a farce of a movie, a lot of people speculate that Ken Miles 'was done wrong.' Well here's your No. 1 driver that fits that bill - John Surtees. Helped win the 1964 WDC & CC for Ferrari - not to mention some sports car events - and this is how he gets treated. Anyways Surtees went to a less competitive team, and still managed to finish 2nd in the 1966 WDC. Meanwhile Ferrari's season was not going as desired. Ferrari would win one more GP and that was it for nearly two years after Surtees left. That team manager?... Eugenio Dragoni? Enzo finally wised up and fired him at the end of the 1966 season.
Jackie Stewart raced in the sixties and seventies. He saw many friends killed. He led the charge for safer cars and circuits. And was he criticised by the old school fans and administrators. However as 3 times world champion he had great power to force change. All drivers in motor racing today owe him a great debt of gratitude. Hi efforts have saved dozens of lives. The safety crusade also spread to all forms of motorsports.
and yet in the two 24h races I watched within the last 3 weeks, I saw live comments on the internet complaining about how racing isn't what it used to be when safty cars went out in poor weather conditions and one of the races was aborted due to extreme fog. So many fans are complete Jackasses expecting drivers to risk their lives for entertainment. Another time I saw people on facebook complaining about nowadays soft people safety standards under a picture of a 70s theme park ride with NO safety belts loops or literally anything. Just a seat in the sky and a person holding onto it barehanded. Humanity is doomed.
@@electricpaisy6045 yep as my old mum said..’they jest at scars that never felt a wound’ In 1968 I was at a motor racing event at Warwick Farm Sydney. Over the loud speaker it was announced that the great Jim Clark was killed at a F2 race of all things in Germany when his lotus left the track and hit a tree! What a waste of a brilliant life. Today the car would have just clipped the Armco…yeah the good ol days…idiots
Never understood why Honda did not "get" it about magnesium. Most of the incendiary bombs dropped on Germany and Japan in WW2 had magnesium components for the extreme flammability you discuss in the program. Japan was fire bombed intensely even before the atomic bombings - Honda should have known about the danger of magnesium.
same thing happened to mercedes in 55 in le mans. that crash that made them pull out of racing all together for a looooooong time. also a magnesium body that on top of rolling though 50 meters of spectators caught fire in a very similar fashion
I was at the Rouen for that French Gran Prix, and was sitting on the bank where he crashed, the fire became incredibly intense - the insanity of using magnesium on an F1 car!
as were the mickey thompson indy cars, of masten gregory, dav macdonald, and steady , eddie , which dave crashed hard on lap one in turn 4, and led to a toxic explosion when he was hit by eddie sachs , daves car was the chassis that had caught fire, and the ims had no fire fighting equipment to put out this hich tech metal chassis fire. sadly, or stupidly, usac, were not on top of the safety factors and would not catch up for many more years. ps, why were there no deaths or inbjuries in nasa moon project, with exception of jan, 1967 apollo one fire on launch pad. in all the 1st 15 years , 1958/1973, how can it be that only one fatal accident, fire occurred while 1000s of racers died in racing cars all over the world.....thoughts to ponder, robert in italy.
It's a risk, but magnesium fires weren't that common. It takes a while for a large mass of metal to heat to ignition temperature. Magnesium was pretty common in those times to save weight. The problem was less weight = less downforce, and if air was lost over the wing, you're skating. Jo Schlesser was inexperienced, but got a chance in an F1 car, the most unstable F1 car on the grid that day.
The use of magnesium in race cars isn’t something Honda pioneered. It had long been used in the fabrication of virtually every part of older race cars. That’s where the term mag wheels comes from.
@@johnarnold893 Watch the Jet Blue landing gear failure at LAX video. I've seen several magnesium wheel fires over the years. Not sure about the alloy.
When these cars were built 60's ,70's or 80's they were state of the art for it's time. I have 3 vintage racecars from the 70's and early 80's they had the "Best" in safety for the time.
Magnesium was extensivly used in F1 for all manner of components -gearboxs , suspension uprights etc before carbon took over and is still used for the wheels
There’s a big difference between thick section parts (gear boxes, suspension, cam box covers) and thin sheet used in body work. The thick sections can act as a heat sink inhibiting temperature rise. Thin sheet has a high air-mass ratio and can quickly heat up all the way through to the melting/vaporization temperature and combust. Flares & fireworks use a mixture of fine mag powder and an oxidizer (black powder or a metal nitrate (red flares - strontium nitrate)).
@@johngeren1053 i think honda were just incredibly unlucky it caught fire - it is VERY dificult to ignite large pieces of magnisum - its used on modern road going motorcyles- for example very thin castings for valve covers. Which i have welded with no problems. - The only reason it isnt used more in high performance road vehicles is its corosion resitance .
The 1966 movie "Grand Prix" has a story line about a driver named Pete Aron, driving a Yamura F1 car. Yamura is obviously Honda. And John Surtees was the driver they based Jean-Pierre Sarti on in the movie.
@@jamesstewart1794 Or _'Bobby Deerfield'_ (1977) - which explains why Ecclestone and everyone else in the F1 circle didn't want another Hollywood trash movie about the sport.... for decades.
The main problems of cars of this era were the side fuel tanks which exploded when car hit something sideways. Accidents of Shclesser, Siffert and Courage were pretty much identical. There were nothing to do with air cooling or magnesium.
If you read the notes in IMDB, you will find the producers used the Name Pete Aron so that when they filmed Bruce Amon driving the name on the helmet looked like Aron.
@@joakimjeppsson1443if they complained about saftey they were called scared, until Jim Clark died. after he died everyone was scared. they almost knew Jim was a better driver than them and if Jim died they were gonna. You had to win a championship to be taken seriously(Like Stewart and Lauda)
The guys/engineers that built the car knew all to well the flamability/volatile issues surrounding magnesium and they failed to notify race safety crews of the necessity to only use foam whaic was available in the late 50's early 60's. In the mid 60's I saw two Ferrari F1 cars catch fire by their magnesium wheels (not coated back then with anything) and the two cars burn completely. The marshals also did not have foam initially and when the fire crew arrived with the spray foam to smother the flames the formula cars were alread all but burnt. The safety corner workers only had dry powder extinguishers which can only out gas an oil fires but not anything that burns as hot as magnesium.
Jo was lying next to the car - you can see the firemen trying to pull him away but his legs were trapped. Apart from the engine, there was virtually nothing left of the Honda.
You think a magnesium sports car fire is bad. Hope you never experience trying to put out a electric car fire. It’s horrific. The fumes can kill you while just standing there. The heat is insane, and people are almost always stuck inside the car, and can’t get out.
There is a documentary called "Rapid Response" and it is the story of how Dr. Steven Olvey created trackside medicine at Indy from nothing and how Dr. Terry Trammel has worked to make racing safer. Worth a view if you can find it.
Thank you for the video. Educational on some things I didn't know. Sir John Surtees declining was central information. Drivers are kinda independent contractors. If it looks sketchy, just say NO. Live to race another day.
Another French formula 2 driver named Eric Offenstadt was destined to race the Honda RA302. But journalist Gerard Combac recommended his friend Jo Schlesser instead and Honda agreed.
Honda was far from the only F1 car (or any type of race car) built with Magnesium. Dan Gurney's car with which he won the 1967 Belgian GP was built of magnesium. The Mercedes W196 and W196 SL famously driven by Fangio, Moss, and Kling were cars built of an aluminium space frame structure with magnesium bodywork. The Eagle and Mercedes' receive non-stop praise for their success, deservedly so. But only Honda gets the bad press and is called "the most dangerous car ever made" because the RA302 was the only Mg car in F1 that killed its occupant. And that's just in F1. There were a number of other race cars that used Mg extensively, including LeVegh's Mercedes that crashed at LeMans in 1955, a car built similarly to their F1 counterparts racing at the time.
The '67 Eagle was not solely "built of magnesium" nor did it have more than a lot of its contemporaries. Neglected here is the DeTomaso, which killed Piers Courage when fire marshalls didn't have a suppressant for its magnesium fire - the body and tub were magnesium. Honda got "bad press" because a driver got killed BECAUSE of their car.
@@caribman10 - The entire monocoque structure of Gurney's car was Mg. Fuel tanks, bulkheads and all. Suspension and exhaust was titanium. The second '67 Eagle had an aluminium structure and suspension with a steel exhaust. Also, Schlesser and Courage perished in similar fashion - both cars crashed violently into an embankment with magnesium-fueled fires resulting. The distinction you're making between the two is non-sequitur.
I raced big GT cars in endurance racing in the '60s,70s and 80s. We really didn't think about the danger. In fact, it was part of the Mystique that race car drivers were a "special" breed. We were not.😊 No more so than fighter pilots 😎. So even today, there are people in the crowd who think drivers are endowed with some special form of skills or bravery. Being a cop is way more dangerous than being a race car driver at any level. Always was. BTW, I raced cars, flew planes and was a cop.
T 0:16 he Royal Navy found out about lightweight mg during the Falklands war 1 or 2 ships were stuck with Exocet missiles and burned like roman candles. It is a wonder there is not an alloy of Mg and Titanium/Al which would not have the horrendous fire potential.
Magnesium also used in the mercedes that was the centrepiece of the 1955 le Mans tragedy. Track workers there also experienced difficulty trying to put out the fire.
This guy knows some stuff ! And Yes ,60 s were developmental ,and progressive ,more than most.Any human decade ! Space ,Music ,Aircraft, Computers . . . ,, last Phenominal Decade :
Honda's mistake was entering as a car manufacturer and not as an engine supplier as some companies at the time did (e.g. Repco. Climax). Imagine for a second if Honda had approached Colin Chapman to supply the RA273E V12 in 1966 - that combination would likely have won a few races and maybe even the Championship with Jim Clark driving. The RA273E was a decent V12 at the time and a far better engine than the BRM H16 or Climax 2 litre V8 Lotus had to endure in 1966 while the Ford DFV was being developed. Ford also sold the DFV to other teams from 1968, so a supply with Honda would likely have worked out well. Lotus also had some good drivers on the roster at that time aside from Clark - Piers Courage, Pedro Rodriguez, Peter Arundell and Gerhard Mitter were all employed by Lotus at various races that season. Arundell in particular may have had a very different career with a Honda-powered car rather than the H16 and Climax V8 he was stuck with - he came back from a bad crash with Richie Ginther in 1964 to getting a podium in South Africa in 1966 on his return!
Well, you confusingly show the Walker Lotus 49B which crashed under Jo Sifferts magical hands at the Karussell in 1969. As far as Magnesium is concerned the respective tubechassied 917s never worried any of its pilots in its days. Judging historical things out of context in the light of today is creating no sense. Anyway, thankyou.
@@hectornecromancer5308 :). Brian Redman tells, when invited to test the then new 917, he called Jo Siffert what he thought. 'Let the germans do the testing, and see what breaks first' Siffert adviced. You had to be pretty shrewd to save your bones, at least for some time. And using the tubes as oilpipe did not comfort any doubts. ;)
Are you aware of the fact that this Honda car, was made 4 years after the magnesium MT indy car which dave macdonald crashed on lap one of 1964 indy 500 30, may 1964, please check it out, cheers robert in italy, ps, good work onthis vivdeo.
The RA 302's instability had nothing to do with its magnesium.. Honda had little experience with racing cars and monocoque construction Their 1964-5 car was mixed rubular/sheet metal and for the 3 liter formula Honda relied on the experience of Eric Broadly and Surtees to design the "Hondola". The 302 may have been able to be competitive if it had had time to develop.
8:06 back in the day they never stopped a race , the most one would see is a local yellow flag , not like nowadays, they put a 2 hour red flag for the smallest fender bender
I'm sorry. I'm sure you know your stuff, but their is no way that I'm going to listen to a video by a 20 year old, in a cap, in is bedroom giving me a lesson on history on the history of drinving and F1, that all the information was taken out of wikipedia. Do not give up, but there is clearly some improuvement to be made here.
Then _Ol' Man Potter_ turned around and lied, _"Gilles was like a son to me..."_ Yeah, sure - after a meeting stemmed from the 1982 Imola crisis Gilles felt so much like a _"son"_ that he decided that he was going to leave that misfit organization and go to McLaren the following season.
@@chhindz It's made up of course - but not far from being accurate. How _Ol' Man Potter'_ handled his drivers is no mystery; notably Hill, Surtees, Lauda and Villeneuve. And those were his top drivers. No telling what other tales could be derived from less appreciated drivers at Scuderia. The ONLY excuse that can possibly be rendered on Enzo for his behavior is that *he was driven barking MAD* by women; his intrusive mother & obnoxious wife - which is why he remotely gets any sympathy from fans like me.
thank u johnnyF1 this honda car from the similar materials , as were the mickey thompson indy cars, of masten gregory, dav macdonald, and steady , eddie , which dave crashed hard on lap one in turn 4, and led to a toxic explosion when he was hit by eddie sachs , daves car was the chassis that had caught fire, and the ims had no fire fighting equipment to put out this hich tech metal chassis fire. sadly, or stupidly, usac, were not on top of the safety factors and would not catch up for many more years. ps, why were there no deaths or inbjuries in nasa moon project, with exception of jan, 1967 apollo one fire on launch pad. in all the 1st 15 years , 1958/1973, how can it be that only one fatal accident, fire occurred while 1000s of racers died in racing cars all over the world.....thoughts to ponder, robert in italy.
Crashed a 1974 honda Elsinore CR125 (motorcycle) that had many magnesium parts. Burned for an hour and burned a giant pothole in the road. Almost nothing left....frame, spokes, engine internals.... Burned so bright you could hardly look at it.
Ya know, I get wanting to make your mark and not miss an opportunity, but when the main guy says “nope. No way. Not doing it. Too unsafe” there’s no way I’d be getting in that car. RIP
@@Eat-MyGoal If you cannot spot them that isn't my problem. The lack of knowledge about weight of aluminum versus titanium is a major problem and undermines the credibility of the entire video.
Not a complete disregard. And now? Now they have the idiotic roll hoop over the cockpit. Men do not even shift the car any longer! You may as well have self driving cars at this point. Danger was part of the equation. Now, all been tamped down as to be benign.
I don't blame ya. I'm a Yank and am angry that for over 50yrs we can't even cover motorsports properly (ever since Gurney retired). Hell even here in Fresno, little is done to recognize Bill Vukovich, much less remember him as a Indianapolis 500 winner. Damn %¢&#-head morons.
I'm really pleased that you added the words "in my opinion" as you are way too young have lived in or experienced the era at first hand. What you are expounding is what you have read. And sitting there narrating with a scotch in your hand does NOT add anything to your credibility.
All that safety BS made racing extremely boring. Why anybody would still want to watch F1 today is absolutely beyond me. It peaked in the late 1960s until the early 1980s and went downhill then. All those helmet wearing non-smokers they call "drivers" today make me sick.
Please pronounce aluminium and chassis correctly, not the bastardised American versions! Video was educational but I turned off immediately I heard mis-pronounciations!!!!!!
Props to the driver telling his boss he won't drive their death trap.
well he was a double world champion in both motorcycles and F1
John Surtees was a very good racing driver - somewhat unappreciated by modern fans. Unfortunately, Mr Honda did not want to listen to him.
John Surtees said out of all the cars he had driven in his career, that’s the only one that truly terrified him. It was twitchy, unstable, and always felt like it was bound to lose control at any second. He told Honda that car is going to get someone killed, and it wasn’t going to be him.
That's not all to admire him for & his career; in so many ways he told Enzo (Ferrari) to go pound sand after the old man took the team manager's word over Surtees about him being permitted to give it a go at Le Mans in 1966.
Thanks for a farce of a movie, a lot of people speculate that Ken Miles 'was done wrong.' Well here's your No. 1 driver that fits that bill - John Surtees. Helped win the 1964 WDC & CC for Ferrari - not to mention some sports car events - and this is how he gets treated. Anyways Surtees went to a less competitive team, and still managed to finish 2nd in the 1966 WDC. Meanwhile Ferrari's season was not going as desired. Ferrari would win one more GP and that was it for nearly two years after Surtees left.
That team manager?... Eugenio Dragoni? Enzo finally wised up and fired him at the end of the 1966 season.
Ligier names all their cars with JS prefix in honour of Jo Schlesser.
1980s dangerous? We thought it was super safe at the time!
We we’re trying to be safer in the 80’s but didn’t really figure it out for a few more decades
It was safe compared to earlier eras.
Jackie Stewart raced in the sixties and seventies. He saw many friends killed. He led the charge for safer cars and circuits. And was he criticised by the old school fans and administrators. However as 3 times world champion he had great power to force change. All drivers in motor racing today owe him a great debt of gratitude. Hi efforts have saved dozens of lives. The safety crusade also spread to all forms of motorsports.
and yet in the two 24h races I watched within the last 3 weeks, I saw live comments on the internet complaining about how racing isn't what it used to be when safty cars went out in poor weather conditions and one of the races was aborted due to extreme fog. So many fans are complete Jackasses expecting drivers to risk their lives for entertainment. Another time I saw people on facebook complaining about nowadays soft people safety standards under a picture of a 70s theme park ride with NO safety belts loops or literally anything. Just a seat in the sky and a person holding onto it barehanded. Humanity is doomed.
@@electricpaisy6045 yep as my old mum said..’they jest at scars that never felt a wound’ In 1968 I was at a motor racing event at Warwick Farm Sydney. Over the loud speaker it was announced that the great Jim Clark was killed at a F2 race of all things in Germany when his lotus left the track and hit a tree! What a waste of a brilliant life. Today the car would have just clipped the Armco…yeah the good ol days…idiots
@@electricpaisy6045 Genetics will take care of the shallow end of he gene pool.
@@johnarnold893 I wish, but I feel like the shallow end also reproduces faster and more.
@@electricpaisy6045all that safety crap made racing extremely boring.
Never understood why Honda did not "get" it about magnesium. Most of the incendiary bombs dropped on Germany and Japan in WW2 had magnesium components for the extreme flammability you discuss in the program. Japan was fire bombed intensely even before the atomic bombings - Honda should have known about the danger of magnesium.
They weren't the only ones using magnesium in the car structures; Gurney was also using that component in his team (the goal of saving weight).
😂
same thing happened to mercedes in 55 in le mans. that crash that made them pull out of racing all together for a looooooong time. also a magnesium body that on top of rolling though 50 meters of spectators caught fire in a very similar fashion
Yeah, don't how anybody in racing missed that takeaway - don't use Magnesium for your car body. Not complicated.
Spraying water made it worse.
I was at the Rouen for that French Gran Prix, and was sitting on the bank where he crashed, the fire became incredibly intense - the insanity of using magnesium on an F1 car!
as were the mickey thompson indy cars, of masten gregory, dav macdonald, and steady , eddie , which dave crashed hard on lap one in turn 4, and led to a toxic explosion when he was hit by eddie sachs , daves car was the chassis that had caught fire, and the ims had no fire fighting equipment to put out this hich tech metal chassis fire. sadly, or stupidly, usac, were not on top of the safety factors and would not catch up for many more years. ps, why were there no deaths or inbjuries in nasa moon project, with exception of jan, 1967 apollo one fire on launch pad. in all the 1st 15 years , 1958/1973, how can it be that only one fatal accident, fire occurred while 1000s of racers died in racing cars all over the world.....thoughts to ponder, robert in italy.
@@ror312gallery19
Great post!! Thank you for sharing that information.
@@maxmulsanne7054 thank you mate, cheers to you from torino, italy,!
@@ror312gallery19
You're quite welcome my friend. 👍
Cheers from Fresno, California
It's a risk, but magnesium fires weren't that common. It takes a while for a large mass of metal to heat to ignition temperature. Magnesium was pretty common in those times to save weight. The problem was less weight = less downforce, and if air was lost over the wing, you're skating. Jo Schlesser was inexperienced, but got a chance in an F1 car, the most unstable F1 car on the grid that day.
“If everything is under control you are just not driving fast enough.” Sir Stirling Moss.
The use of magnesium in race cars isn’t something Honda pioneered. It had long been used in the fabrication of virtually every part of older race cars. That’s where the term mag wheels comes from.
Mag wheels and magnesium used in aircraft landing gear. Ever see a wheel fire after a blowout on an airplane?
@@buffdelcampo That's because they are made of Magnesium alloys that don't burn.
@@johnarnold893 Watch the Jet Blue landing gear failure at LAX video. I've seen several magnesium wheel fires over the years. Not sure about the alloy.
It was the source of the Mercedes fire at Le Mans in 1955
When these cars were built 60's ,70's or 80's they were state of the art for it's time. I have 3 vintage racecars from the 70's and early 80's they had the "Best" in safety for the time.
This is one of the best and most accurate F1 videos I've seen,
Well you haven't seen many, in that case.
Magnesium was extensivly used in F1 for all manner of components -gearboxs , suspension uprights etc before carbon took over and is still used for the wheels
There’s a big difference between thick section parts (gear boxes, suspension, cam box covers) and thin sheet used in body work. The thick sections can act as a heat sink inhibiting temperature rise. Thin sheet has a high air-mass ratio and can quickly heat up all the way through to the melting/vaporization temperature and combust. Flares & fireworks use a mixture of fine mag powder and an oxidizer (black powder or a metal nitrate (red flares - strontium nitrate)).
Mercedes built bodies of their 1954 and 55 racing cars - 300SLR and 196 f1 from mag. So did Jaguar for their initial batch of D-types.
@@johngeren1053 i think honda were just incredibly unlucky it caught fire - it is VERY dificult to ignite large pieces of magnisum - its used on modern road going motorcyles- for example very thin castings for valve covers. Which i have welded with no problems. - The only reason it isnt used more in high performance road vehicles is its corosion resitance .
In fairness Honda is not the only one to build a magnesium chases F1 car
Yep, AAR was another team that I'm aware of.
The 1966 movie "Grand Prix" has a story line about a driver named Pete Aron, driving a Yamura F1 car. Yamura is obviously Honda. And John Surtees was the driver they based Jean-Pierre Sarti on in the movie.
Worst movie ever.
Aron was Phil Hill, Sarti was Von Tripps.
@@patrickporter6536 lol , obviously you've never seen Driven
@@jamesstewart1794 hopefully I never will! 😂
@@jamesstewart1794
Or _'Bobby Deerfield'_ (1977) - which explains why Ecclestone and everyone else in the F1 circle didn't want another Hollywood trash movie about the sport.... for decades.
The main problems of cars of this era were the side fuel tanks which exploded when car hit something sideways. Accidents of Shclesser, Siffert and Courage were pretty much identical. There were nothing to do with air cooling or magnesium.
Bandini too
Never forget that early VW beetles had engines and transmissions made out of Magnesium.
If you read the notes in IMDB, you will find the producers used the Name Pete Aron so that when they filmed Bruce Amon driving the name on the helmet looked like Aron.
@@johnharris6655Chris Amon.
@@marks7197 Right, I was thinking Bruce McLaren.
Most "magnesium" was alloys with aluminium and other metals, much less flammable than straight magnesium.
Dan Gurney's All American Eagle that won the Spa Grand Prix was also made out of magnesium.
Huey helicopters are also made from magnesium.
F-4 Phantoms used quite a bit of it as well.
And here is the news read by a man in a vest and a whisky and coke, very professional.
They were racing while car was on fire..
Holy fucking shit, humans from the past were so wild
The drivers of the 50s to mid 90s, especially up to the 80s they were built different
If they complained about the safety they'd be fired and there'd be 100 who were ready to jump in the car the very same day
First gp I ever saw as a kid that happened, 1973 Holland.
@@joakimjeppsson1443if they complained about saftey they were called scared, until Jim Clark died. after he died everyone was scared. they almost knew Jim was a better driver than them and if Jim died they were gonna. You had to win a championship to be taken seriously(Like Stewart and Lauda)
You're definitely Young.....😂😂😂
I believe that the Mercedes that crashed at Le Mans in 1955 was also magnesium.
Yes, you are correct.
Excellent video! Well done!
The guys/engineers that built the car knew all to well the flamability/volatile issues surrounding magnesium and they failed to notify race safety crews of the necessity to only use foam whaic was available in the late 50's early 60's. In the mid 60's I saw two Ferrari F1 cars catch fire by their magnesium wheels (not coated back then with anything) and the two cars burn completely. The marshals also did not have foam initially and when the fire crew arrived with the spray foam to smother the flames the formula cars were alread all but burnt. The safety corner workers only had dry powder extinguishers which can only out gas an oil fires but not anything that burns as hot as magnesium.
Jo never raced F1 car before, so he crashed in the rain, hitting the earth bank sideways with high speed. He was killes instantly.
Jo was lying next to the car - you can see the firemen trying to pull him away but his legs were trapped. Apart from the engine, there was virtually nothing left of the Honda.
You think a magnesium sports car fire is bad. Hope you never experience trying to put out a electric car fire. It’s horrific. The fumes can kill you while just standing there. The heat is insane, and people are almost always stuck inside the car, and can’t get out.
There is a documentary called "Rapid Response" and it is the story of how Dr. Steven Olvey created trackside medicine at Indy from nothing and how Dr. Terry Trammel has worked to make racing safer. Worth a view if you can find it.
Wow…never knew this! Good video
Thank you 😃🏁
Magnesium was already prooven to be a bad choice in Le Mans 1955. How did they ignore that?
Thank you for the video. Educational on some things I didn't know.
Sir John Surtees declining was central information. Drivers are kinda independent contractors. If it looks sketchy, just say NO. Live to race another day.
Another French formula 2 driver named Eric Offenstadt was destined to race the Honda RA302. But journalist Gerard Combac recommended his friend Jo Schlesser instead and Honda agreed.
Not the first magnesium car, the 1955 LeMans disaster was a Mercedes utilizing magnesium.
First series D-Types, too.
Honda was far from the only F1 car (or any type of race car) built with Magnesium.
Dan Gurney's car with which he won the 1967 Belgian GP was built of magnesium. The Mercedes W196 and W196 SL famously driven by Fangio, Moss, and Kling were cars built of an aluminium space frame structure with magnesium bodywork.
The Eagle and Mercedes' receive non-stop praise for their success, deservedly so. But only Honda gets the bad press and is called "the most dangerous car ever made" because the RA302 was the only Mg car in F1 that killed its occupant. And that's just in F1. There were a number of other race cars that used Mg extensively, including LeVegh's Mercedes that crashed at LeMans in 1955, a car built similarly to their F1 counterparts racing at the time.
The '67 Eagle was not solely "built of magnesium" nor did it have more than a lot of its contemporaries. Neglected here is the DeTomaso, which killed Piers Courage when fire marshalls didn't have a suppressant for its magnesium fire - the body and tub were magnesium. Honda got "bad press" because a driver got killed BECAUSE of their car.
@@caribman10 - The entire monocoque structure of Gurney's car was Mg. Fuel tanks, bulkheads and all. Suspension and exhaust was titanium. The second '67 Eagle had an aluminium structure and suspension with a steel exhaust.
Also, Schlesser and Courage perished in similar fashion - both cars crashed violently into an embankment with magnesium-fueled fires resulting. The distinction you're making between the two is non-sequitur.
In legend these heroes are living forever.
I raced big GT cars in endurance racing in the '60s,70s and 80s. We really didn't think about the danger. In fact, it was part of the Mystique that race car drivers were a "special" breed. We were not.😊 No more so than fighter pilots 😎. So even today, there are people in the crowd who think drivers are endowed with some special form of skills or bravery. Being a cop is way more dangerous than being a race car driver at any level. Always was.
BTW, I raced cars, flew planes and was a cop.
I call BS.
Makes me feel really cozy about my magnesium cased Porsche 2.7 lol
You are rankin' that tank-top, broheim.
T 0:16 he Royal Navy found out about lightweight mg during the Falklands war
1 or 2 ships were stuck with Exocet missiles and burned like roman candles. It is a wonder there is not an alloy of Mg and Titanium/Al which would not have the horrendous fire potential.
Magnesium also used in the mercedes that was the centrepiece of the 1955 le Mans tragedy. Track workers there also experienced difficulty trying to put out the fire.
This guy knows some stuff ! And Yes ,60 s were developmental ,and progressive ,more than most.Any human decade ! Space ,Music ,Aircraft, Computers . . . ,, last Phenominal Decade :
Honda's mistake was entering as a car manufacturer and not as an engine supplier as some companies at the time did (e.g. Repco. Climax). Imagine for a second if Honda had approached Colin Chapman to supply the RA273E V12 in 1966 - that combination would likely have won a few races and maybe even the Championship with Jim Clark driving. The RA273E was a decent V12 at the time and a far better engine than the BRM H16 or Climax 2 litre V8 Lotus had to endure in 1966 while the Ford DFV was being developed. Ford also sold the DFV to other teams from 1968, so a supply with Honda would likely have worked out well. Lotus also had some good drivers on the roster at that time aside from Clark - Piers Courage, Pedro Rodriguez, Peter Arundell and Gerhard Mitter were all employed by Lotus at various races that season. Arundell in particular may have had a very different career with a Honda-powered car rather than the H16 and Climax V8 he was stuck with - he came back from a bad crash with Richie Ginther in 1964 to getting a podium in South Africa in 1966 on his return!
Well, you confusingly show the Walker Lotus 49B which crashed under Jo Sifferts magical hands at the Karussell in 1969. As far as Magnesium is concerned the respective tubechassied 917s never worried any of its pilots in its days. Judging historical things out of context in the light of today is creating no sense. Anyway, thankyou.
Porsche has learned one thing: don't tell your driver what the car is made of
@@hectornecromancer5308 :). Brian Redman tells, when invited to test the then new 917, he called Jo Siffert what he thought. 'Let the germans do the testing, and see what breaks first' Siffert adviced. You had to be pretty shrewd to save your bones, at least for some time. And using the tubes as oilpipe did not comfort any doubts. ;)
@@aureliobrighton1871
😂
Magnesium was used in body panels in the 50s and also in Dan Gurney's Eagle mark I chassis number 104 in 1967.
Subbed - This is what I like, F1 without bullshit, drama or toxicity. Just pure facts!
Are you aware of the fact that this Honda car, was made 4 years after the magnesium MT indy car which dave macdonald crashed on lap one of 1964 indy 500 30, may 1964, please check it out, cheers robert in italy, ps, good work onthis vivdeo.
The RA 302's instability had nothing to do with its magnesium.. Honda had little experience with racing cars and monocoque construction Their 1964-5 car was mixed rubular/sheet metal and for the 3 liter formula Honda relied on the experience of Eric Broadly and Surtees to design the "Hondola".
The 302 may have been able to be competitive if it had had time to develop.
Thank you.Well done.
excellent vid. thanks
new subscriber glad to be here
The engine top left at 3:42 is the 1.5 litre transverse V12, not the 3 litre longitudinally mounted V12 you speak of.
RA302 was a V8.
Let’s go Jonny upload!!
Hell, I watched a video of a cat cut in half after a crash.......the race went on
do a video on The Isle of Man GP!! it seems super interesting
Well presented, well researched, super professional. Great job great video.
pff great video man gj 👏
Magnesium is still used in smaller parts? Do tracks have some chemical to suppress burning magnesium, today?
4:13 - Oh god, I already know where this is going...
makes you wonder why they didn't put the V8 in the RA301 and just kept it going
67-78 were the killer years
Honda of France said race the car but Japan said no. What a sad day for motor racing.
8:06 back in the day they never stopped a race , the most one would see is a local yellow flag , not like nowadays, they put a 2 hour red flag for the smallest fender bender
Why is this guy sitting in front of an open wardrobe on his way to the beach?
Did you delete any of your video on red bull dominance with there aero package?
I'm sorry. I'm sure you know your stuff, but their is no way that I'm going to listen to a video by a 20 year old, in a cap, in is bedroom giving me a lesson on history on the history of drinving and F1, that all the information was taken out of wikipedia. Do not give up, but there is clearly some improuvement to be made here.
Enzo Ferrari had a “You win in my Ferrari, or die trying to win”.
Then _Ol' Man Potter_ turned around and lied, _"Gilles was like a son to me..."_ Yeah, sure - after a meeting stemmed from the 1982 Imola crisis Gilles felt so much like a _"son"_ that he decided that he was going to leave that misfit organization and go to McLaren the following season.
Did you just make that up? I heard he discouraged anything that would damage the engine.
@@chhindz
It's made up of course - but not far from being accurate.
How _Ol' Man Potter'_ handled his drivers is no mystery; notably Hill, Surtees, Lauda and Villeneuve. And those were his top drivers. No telling what other tales could be derived from less appreciated drivers at Scuderia.
The ONLY excuse that can possibly be rendered on Enzo for his behavior is that *he was driven barking MAD* by women; his intrusive mother & obnoxious wife - which is why he remotely gets any sympathy from fans like me.
Why was the car so unstable or unresponsive. What was it doing that was not normal?
Can you imagine if honda came out with a s1500t in 2024 mmmmm would sell like crazy with vtec
thank u johnnyF1
this honda car from the similar materials ,
as were the mickey thompson indy cars, of masten gregory, dav macdonald, and steady , eddie , which dave crashed hard on lap one in turn 4, and led to a toxic explosion when he was hit by eddie sachs , daves car was the chassis that had caught fire, and the ims had no fire fighting equipment to put out this hich tech metal chassis fire. sadly, or stupidly, usac, were not on top of the safety factors and would not catch up for many more years. ps, why were there no deaths or inbjuries in nasa moon project, with exception of jan, 1967 apollo one fire on launch pad. in all the 1st 15 years , 1958/1973, how can it be that only one fatal accident, fire occurred while 1000s of racers died in racing cars all over the world.....thoughts to ponder, robert in italy.
Crashed a 1974 honda Elsinore CR125
(motorcycle) that had many magnesium parts. Burned for an hour and burned a giant pothole in the road.
Almost nothing left....frame, spokes, engine internals....
Burned so bright you could hardly look at it.
Comment brought up memories of my 79 Elsinore
Ya know, I get wanting to make your mark and not miss an opportunity, but when the main guy says “nope. No way. Not doing it. Too unsafe” there’s no way I’d be getting in that car. RIP
Aluminium is 2.7g/cc. Don't know where you got 3.62 from but that ain't it Chief.
The answer to their woes. At least until they wanted it to be?
Say what? That makes no sense.
Lawnboy bricktop mowers had a magnesium deck. Just sayin'.
Aluminium is 2,7 not 3,6
And yet,BMW boxer engine cylinder covers are made of magnesium!To ,,gain,,a few grams on an overweight so called enduro bike!😅
Aluminium weighs 2,72 kg per liter...
Most of the video clips were irrelevant.
Crp music gave me a headache.
Aluminium is only 2.7 kg/litre….
where did bro go off to?? right when F1 got exciting again.
Will you drink this Marti i?
Titanium is too heavy.
Gnarly ???????????????????????
very good witthout bullshit
Titanium is heavier than aluminum. Lots of factual errors in this. Magnesium wheels were very common in that era.
You've identified one factual error, not 'lots'. Please state ALL the others you've spotted... 🤡🤡
@@Eat-MyGoal If you cannot spot them that isn't my problem. The lack of knowledge about weight of aluminum versus titanium is a major problem and undermines the credibility of the entire video.
Yet another poorly informed and researched yank video on F1. What a surprise.
Point out the errors. I'll not wait...
Not a complete disregard. And now? Now they have the idiotic roll hoop over the cockpit. Men do not even shift the car any longer! You may as well have self driving cars at this point. Danger was part of the equation. Now, all been tamped down as to be benign.
Dumb title, especially if you're a fan of Piers Courage.
Clickbait.
It's aluminium, not aluminum.
You say LYKEN, I say LITCHEN. Let's call the whole thing MOSS.
This guy is too busy getting drunk and getting ready to go to the beach to be taken seriously. Not exactly the appearance of F1 authority.
We don't take lessons on speed from Yanks.
I don't blame ya. I'm a Yank and am angry that for over 50yrs we can't even cover motorsports properly (ever since Gurney retired). Hell even here in Fresno, little is done to recognize Bill Vukovich, much less remember him as a Indianapolis 500 winner. Damn %¢&#-head morons.
How long without cuts did you hold that tumbler glass lol
Back in the day it was way better today sucks safety killed all sports
I'm really pleased that you added the words "in my opinion" as you are way too young have lived in or experienced the era at first hand. What you are expounding is what you have read. And sitting there narrating with a scotch in your hand does NOT add anything to your credibility.
You my friend, talk way to much. - Nice Video but too much back ground noise.
All that safety BS made racing extremely boring. Why anybody would still want to watch F1 today is absolutely beyond me. It peaked in the late 1960s until the early 1980s and went downhill then. All those helmet wearing non-smokers they call "drivers" today make me sick.
Do you sit with booze in your hand , if so , its stupid !
Please pronounce aluminium and chassis correctly, not the bastardised American versions! Video was educational but I turned off immediately I heard mis-pronounciations!!!!!!