Dyno Room Experiments on Rare Mopar 340 - Brake HP vs Net HP - Headers vs Manifolds
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
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This one has been in the works for a while now... and Nick is as excited as anyone. A classic, numbers matching 340, put to the test on Nick's dyno.
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This proves why so many loves the amazing 340!
What a sweet little engine!
And it still has a calm idle, prefect for daily driving. Bob will be very a happy guy.
I'm enjoying the new addition, the head guy! What's better than being an engine guy....God bless you Nick!
Folks better watch out for that Blue Duster prowling the streets…
That is one sweet 340!!!
hey there folks out there, the torque and hp curve comes in later with exhaust manifolds because.......of the exhaust air flow restriction, headers breath better, so therefore earlier torque and hp. I surely do appreciate the information you share with everyone Nick and Manny and Robert
Good points, headers should be on this 340 after bigger valves were installed and port work, meaning exhaust gases will flow quicker with headers. 16 horsepower to me is a lot to be left out.
THANK YOU NICK, MANNY AND NICO!
One great hour with the dyno runs!
I'm a little concerned about the blowby, hopefully that will be better once the PCV system is connected.
When I used to test vehicles on the old Clayton chassis dyno we had at work, occasionally I'd see blowby on the engines under load. Course I was testing for problems, but that Clayton was great! In the late 90's it was removed and a different dyno was installed for smog testing, and it was controlled by the smog test machine. No hand control like the old Clayton.
Anyway, Good one Nick! More dyno tests please.
Kudos to the camshaft builder, the engine builder, and the carburetor builder. All combined, a stellar outcome.
Those 340s were waaaaay underrated. Great motor 👍🏻
We have lots of respect for them too.
One of the best Mopar ever produced.
Yes they were. I drag raced a 1970 Mustang back in the mid 70’s and I had more more respect for light 340 powered cars like the Duster than I had for bigger Mopars like GTX’s, Chargers and even Cudas with big blocks.
Yes i smoked every big block i raced wt a 67 Barracuda but the Big Blocks couldn't never get traction! Not saying mine was perfect! That's probably a 340 6pack cam! Or more like a 268/468
That’s a happy little engine. That Duster will be a serious sleeper. I had a ‘72 Charger RT with the 340 in the late ‘80’s. If I knew then what I know now, I’d still have that car and it would be a helluva lot faster than it was back then.
The gross vs net with dyno pulls in different stages was brilliant. Best comparison ever with the 340.
Nice restoration dyno run...and a Thremoquad carburetor treat....good stuff Nick and a great build for the win column....thanks
Nice work guys. The thermoquad always had a bad rap but watching the A/F ration as the engine was climbing, it was as steady as anything I've seen, those engineers at Chrysler were a talented crew.
True, but the carb was designed by Carter. And I never knew it to have a bad rap, I'd take a lean-burn TQ over a QJ any day.
Originally, the factory 340 was going to be designed for a 6,500 RPM redline, but due to the choice of cast pistons, the valve springs were designed to hold the RPM to a 6,000 RPM redline. Mopar sold heavier replacement single springs for racing, but the NHRA wouldn't allow them, so then Mopar sold only the factory springs as the only single springs they sold for the 340. The factory 340 springs lose pressure with regular street use, fairly quickly. The best replacement single springs I've found are made by Isky, slightly higher pressure and better steel.
Maybe on late 340s, but even the 360HP that replaced it had springs with dampers, and would rev. to 8000 clean if you dared. Ask me how I know.
Loved my 1970 Duster with the 340. Did some work to it and I was only 17.. your channel is Great!!!Thanks Nick
That is awesome! Thanks for watching.
According to many, the 1971 340 (Thermoquad-equipped) was the strongest of the lot... Although the '68 340 cars with 4-speed transmissions did have a more aggressive camshaft.
Agree the 71 340 engines had all the right parts. 340 is a very good perf engine.
I thought the 71 TQ was a completely different design TQ. I think they must have recalled them and replaced with the later "solid fuel" TQ's. I say that because, you only very, VERY rarely see the original design, and they don't make any kits for the original carb. This one in this video is the later design TQ, which is pretty much like all the TQ's you're accustomed to see, today
Arm chair mechanic here... I know I heard ya say all finish adjustments will be done after the engine is in the car, but, ya could adjust a little more spring tension on that butterfly over the secondaries so that it gradually opens instead of popping open. You would get more torque through the lower rpm's if that butterfly opens smoothly throughout the rev range. My misspent youth messing with too many therrmoquads!!😁
I have never worked on a thermoquad, but worked on many quadrajet carbs, and they had a spring adjustment for the secondary tip in that a lot of guys set to loose and had a monumental bog, from what you said these have the same adjustment, and possibly the same result.
@@Musclecar1972 Same with the Holley vacuum secondary carbs when they eliminate the check ball in the vacuum housing.
@@yarrdayarrdayarrda I don’t have much experience building the Holly carbs either, I mainly worked with the quadrajets. I should have been more informed with them, I definitely had more than a few cars equipped with them, but I just never did. Thanks for the info, I always liked the quadrajet, it amazed me that so many didn’t, when you know what to do with them, they perform excellent on the streets. And they’re pretty much trouble free. My arch nemesis was the Carter AFB, nope, don’t like em, don’t want to work on them! LOL 😂
@@Musclecar1972 , absolutely! Q -jets, were required on SS class cars. I learned everything I could about tuning them. The main body plugs and throttle shaft bushings were thee Q - jets main issue. Once you got the correct power piston springs in the primary and correct jet size, you could tune the secondaries. Cadillac & Olds , had great metering rod & hanger combos. Nothing was as good off road as the Q - jet. The single float and bowl stuffer, kept float bounce very controlled. I really never learned the T Quad either. They seemed problematic to me? I don't really know. Way to go fellow Q - jet fan!! 😁. Of course, nowadays it means very little!
@@kensnyder2340 Unfortunately you are correct about currently, I have 3 of them on my bench right now, I have a 1972 W-30 I ordered brand new, and I’m just finishing a complete frame off restoration on it with a complete mechanical upgrade as well. The car is all number matching, but internally completely different. I sent the original carb out to be restored, and had the issues you mentioned taken care of. Now it’s just a matter of fine tuning it to match the current engine configuration. I still love the Q-Jet, they just work. 👍
Now That's Entertainment!
Nick I love your show's, Your gang of "Trouble Makers" are a cool bunch.
I used to live in Sault Ste. Marie Michigan and went to Ontario Canada all the time, I now live in California U.S.A. but long for the days of clowning around in your neighbor hood... I am surprised to see the amount of American client's that you have... Keep up the good work!
As Always, Best Wishes to you and the "garage posse"
I can't wait to see it in the car!
One point you missed, headers are much lighter. That makes for quicker weight transfer on launch and better handling. Add the horsepower gain and “that” sound, I love it!
My buddy's 69 Dart Swinger 340 gave my 66Hemi charger a hard time through first gear but after that it was all Hemi 😊 !
Sweet. One year only rear trap door! 72 only. Buddy has a really nice 72 Plymouth Duster!
Looking forward to this one 😊
You just have to love the 340! Especially with that 800 cfm Thermoquad and the big trap door in the air cleaner. Wonderfull music for the soul. Also the only reason you would want headers on the sreet would be if you really like to keep replacing burnt spark wires every few hundred miles. Great job Nick.
My recollection from building several 340s and echoed by the machine shop with 340 engines is cast pistons & cast or forged crank max RPM 6000; forged pistons & cast crank max RPM 6500, forged pistons & forged crank max RPM 7000, all assuming that the valve springs are good for the above RPM limits. My '69 340 with factory forged crank, factory rods and TRW forged pistons, purple shaft cam, 273 adjustible rocker arms, and direct connection valvesprings would effortlessly rev to 6800 RPM and pull hard all the way. I believe, as others have mentioned, that the 340 was originally designed with forged pistons but these were costed out prior to production, and the redline was dropped from 6500 to 6000 RPM. Interestingly, the '68 only 4-speed cars had a hotter cam than the auto trans cam. I reckon that the '68 manual trans cam was originally designed for the 6500 RPM redline. The '69 and newer 340s all used the '68 auto trans spec cam, regardless of the transmission in the car.
I put together another 340 very similar to mine for a friend. This 340 went into a base equipment '71 340 Duster. That car had very, very few options. It had a factory 3.55 sure grip axle and an AM radio; these were the only options. It had an A-230 3 speed manual transmission and bench seats, no PS or PB, and 10" drum brakes all around. With base equipment, this was a lightweight car and really fast, and the owner used to rev it to 7000 RPM on a regular basis.
I built a few 360s too; it might have been confirmation bias, but IIRC the 360s made a little more torque but didn’t rev quite as freely as the 340s. What the 360 was missing was compression more than anything, and getting the compression up to 10:1 on a 360 would really wake it up. Good memories.
I had a 73 Dart Sport 340/ 4 speed in '73, bought new @ Grand Spaulding Dodge ln Chicago. I raced that car for many years. It always liked to run cold, best at 140 or so at first burn out. I also flipped the air filter, and bypassed the vacume advance delay. I loved that car, and still miss it. Great show as always.
Dr Panaritis strikes again! That's one very happy little 340. 😊
Yes indeed!
Dana "60" Glass. Just can't get enough of the giant killers. This 340 did incredible. Can't wait for the motor install and road test. I think this combination will work great with the 3.91:1 rear gears that came with it new, but I remember that a gear change may be done. A 3.23:1 would be incredible to drive with the 4 speed, but keep the original gears. Great job as usual Nick, George, Manny, and Niko.
Lots of vacuum, good idle & 5800 peak means wide LSA on the cam. 125-130 lbs on the seats means good amount of lift .550 range with fairly mild duration @.050" in the 215°- 220° range.
Nice Nick!! My buddy Foti had a ‘73 Satellite with a 340 and a 727. That thing absolutely screamed. It would rev and rev and rev. It would just about lift the front wheels on launching. That car freaked out a lot of people on the streets back in the 80s.
Good afternoon, Nick, & George, I can't wait to see what kind of power this mighty Mopar 340 will make on the Dyno. I love these videos where Nick does comparison testing. Nick's Garage is a great place to spend a Monday afternoon. Let her rip Nick!!!
Thanks, Eugene. Good afternoon. We love doing the comparison videos tests too! We just have to be careful with these numbers matching engines.❤️
@@NicksGarage Great video George, excellent camera work. I was impressed with the power this 340 made, during all phases of the comparison, and how little HP & Torque was lost when the headers were removed. I'm starting to rethink the worth of headers on a street car.
Greetings Eugene, hope all are well there - and the 500, too of course. 🙂
- Ed on the Ridge
@@moparedtn Hi Ed, it's great to hear from you. I hope all is well with you and your family. All good here in Texas.
@@NicksGarage I love the respect that you give your customers, and their love for their cars. The best way to learn the old school cars we all remember and love.
in Nick we trust, words to live by.
Thanks Eric!
Thanks, Eric.
It’s not that those manifolds are so great, it’s because Bob designs those cams to work well with exhaust manifolds for the Pure Stock drag racing class.
It’s still 17 hp and nearly 25lb/ft of torque down. I want all the engine has to offer. A good mechanic knows how to install headers so they don’t leak and work well. I’ve installed hundreds. Tip: use quality headers, gaskets, and fasteners.
Don’t be lazy.
How can he do that?
@@shakerman55exactly, less weight too and the difference would have been even bigger, with a better intake, etc.
That’s what I was thinking, the fact that they don’t think 17hp/25 tq on an engine that only makes 358hp in its strongest pull is humorous to me. Not to mention the average hp/tq gains it probably gains across the whole pull. It’s probably .2 and 2 mph at the track in a Duster, VERY worthwhile if you actually care about performance.
Because I tow trailers often with my old small block, I will keep my long tube headers to get any extra low end torque I can get. No leaks on my ceramic coated Hooker headers well over 20 years on the engine. Just my own choice because I started with practically no horsepower or torque and bolting up headers was my mechanical limitation at that time.
Very interesting video on the mighty 340 SB! That should pull the Duster quite nicely. One fact that I can tell you about Carter Thermoquads that most guys don't know. The fuel bowl is made of a phenolic resin that keeps the fuel cooler. This prevents the dreaded "vapor lock" that happens with other type carbs when you are running that engine in the summer time and it's 85 degrees. Also, Carter made a "strip kit" of different metering rods and jets so you could fine tune the carb.
You are so correct. Great Carter Thermoquad. Also designed for racing.
I think some of the problems that people had with them is that the phenolic didn't deal with repeated backfires well.
FYI: Willem Weertman, Chrysler Chief Engineer, Engine Design and Development is the fellow that designed and developed the "LA" series engines for Chrysler Corp. Willem Weertman has long been famed as a force behind some of the most famous and beloved Mopar engines - small and big block V8s, the 426 Hemi, the slant six, and the new generations of 2.2 liter four-cylinders and 3.3/3.8 liter V6 powerplants. In 2007, Mr. Weertman published a comprehensive history of Chrysler engines which went into surprising depth on early engines. They were NOT designed by the Dodge Brothers, Manny.
I think Manny probably knew that already - he was just living the dream at that dyno test!
With no specks how did you make sure it was on the numbers? Straight up not allways the best way to get the most out of the cam !
Great content! I had some old manuals and parts books that indicated that, "export" 1972 340's had high compression ratio and American ones had 8.5:1. I think they still listed 1.88" valves for all of them. I think the high compression export engines were early 1972, before the cast iron crankshafts being used in late 1972. The early 1972 American 340's had forged steel crankshafts, but 8.5:1 compression. A few leftover high compression export engines made into some American market cars though. I always wondered which 1972 340's were sold in Canada, but the cast crank late 72's were likely all low compression engines.
Thanks for the info!
I had a 79 Dodge R/T Aspen that was ordered through the Marine Corps post exchange that was made for export, as indicated by the sticker on the door jam.
No lean burn 318, and it ran stronger than the 360 4 barrel version not made for export
You could be right. I had an original 73 Australian 340 Charger. It had the 2.02 intake valves, forged crank & the compression was 10.5-1.
Cheers😊
68-71 had 2.02 /10.5 wt forged cranks the T/A 6 pack had its own special stuff that you could mix up & make very strong
Manny is a smart dude. Nick is very fortunate to have such wise compadre.
Yes Manny is very smart. I agree with his header philosophy and Manny knows headers should be used here.
As Manny says……in Nick we trust. Beautiful finished product for Bob. Awesome.
Wow... It would be a dream to me to have my 361 built at Indy auto by Nick. Awesome guys. Hello from Colorado
The note you had said peak power should be around 5,800 and he was right! That is crazy! Sure enjoyed the video, Nick, Manny, Niko, and George!
Excellent episode Nick! The recording and editing on your show is top notch! Dang those 340s make great power per cube. Im going to add a Mopar to my little collection of muscle yet. Just waiting for the right one to come along.
Good intake, carb n cam, SCREAMER
They don't call it the " Big block killer " for nothin! The 340 is a screamer engine! Here we go! 👍😁
The only other engine that gave the 340 a run for its money was the ford 351c 4v.
I ran a mack1 that had a 351c it still was no match! The only one gave me a run was Coronet 440 4-speed! After a few mods race cars could touch it wt a 4 speed shifting at 8k
Hi Nick George Manny Niko !! I have to say first thank you all for taking time to show the 340 dyno tests... Nick another GREAT build on a 340 NO LEAKS OR ANY NOISES ... Manny it was very nice to see you doing this with Nick .. Niko KEEP LEARNING from the best .... Great video Thanks Nick and George great editing and sound ! ! ! From your Friend the one and ONLY THE BANDIT !!!!! GOOD NIGHT ALL !!!
Thanks again! Love ya, Bandit.
Hello Everyone on Nicks Garage Dyno Monday!!! George great video and super cool seeing the 340 really show it's strength for its size . Very neat how quiet and smooth idle it had ...sweet engine . Take It Easy....
Glad you enjoyed it.
Unless I read the graphs incorrectly, it appeared that similar torque numbers were achieved about 800rpms earlier with the headers… hopefully that would help with towing for crazy old timers like me who still tow trailers with a car with a small block. Of course if I lost weight and didn’t pack so much stuff, that likely would also help with tiny performance gains 😂
Nico you're doing a good job guy just keep on keeping on buddy you are learning a lot of good stuff and you're taking on a legacy Keep On learning.👍🏾👍🏾✌
Any time I see a 340 on the dyno I am 17 again! Thank you Nicks garage! You are an awesome team, Nick Junior included. Lol Mannie
Many years ago I had a Thermoquad on a 318 with Edelbrock LD4B manifold. It bogged coming off the line but if already moving it was OK. I didn't know way back then how to adjust the air door spring tension. I swapped out the Thermoquad for a AFB and that worked perfectly so I never experimented further with the Thermoquad. I should have.
What a fun episode. Love Mannys' input as well!
Top notch Nick. Cheers to you and your team. Best on RUclips IMHO
Finally, the myth that 340s rev has been put to rest. lol
What a combo! I love the look of the orange on blue. Thanks for this!
Great to watch the 3 amigos in the dyno room. For a small block, those 340 really packed a punch. Thanks Nick!
Hi Nico,
You are so lucky to be getting your training from these two men with a combined century+ worth of experience, and training. Make the best of this great opportunity. 👍
Thank you for the video team, great work. I hope you all had a blessed Easter. God is good.
Me and friends built several 340’s back in 1979-1982. Every built was different, some 100% stock, a few more built with lots of money. All 340’s surprised us in performance and reliability. High RPM’s…so nice. Thanks team!!
Right on.
that 340 is so smooth not any movement at all
Great show guys ! Now, it would be very interesting to see the fully assembled car on a chassis dyno ! Cheers !!
That would be cool!
Love it when new video's drop an George does amazing filming jod
Thanks for watching!
Awesome build Nick, It all came together very nice and it's very impressive.
Unity Motorsports just did a dyno test SBC and flipped the lid for 25 hp.
What a stout little engine! It seems very smooth too, doesn’t look as though it vibrates in the stand as much as the big blocks do.
HERE WE GO!!!!!!.
Right on.
The more power that is produced, the bigger the difference between headers and exhaust manifolds. Results vary greatly on Tri-Ys and cheaper headers vs. the better tuned race headers. Collector length is a factor as well. Great content Nick ! 😊
Hats off to Manny for the great valve job.🎉
Hey Nick ,George, Manny and Nicko , real fun to see the 340 making that horsepower and so smooth running . The 340 was a great street runner and quick . That ol color and the Themoquad, and it's in a Duster sure brings back memories of being 16 and with a best friend ,who we cruise and race around in his ol Duster ...Great Monday Dyno Day !!!!!
I haven’t gotten so lazy yet that I won’t install headers to get all of the goodness I can get.😁
It would have been interesting to see a test with the alternator connected electrically.
Be interesting to flip the lid on air cleaner like we used to, see if it really does anything...
I think it was Unity Motorsports this week that flipped the lid on a 400 SBC and gained 25 hp.
Personal preference really what it comes down to. If you're bracket racing then opt for headers..i still run headers on the street, but my numbers engine sits on the stand 😅. Great job Nick & crew. Very impressive as us old timers always knew. 👏
Hey Nick and Manny, It is always good to see Nikko working in the shop with his Uncle Nick. Have a GREAT week!!
Thanks! You too!
Giasou Nikola,
If it is okay with you & I have your blessing last week I attended
The All Day Chrysler Show
In Adelaide with over 300 cars.
I found a youtube video of the day which I would like to put link up so all your viewers can see a variety of Australian Mopars from the capital city that made them.
Couple of your clients car are displayed too John but not the
1968 Charger.
It was the best Mopar Car Show I attended in years.
Cheers
Louis Kats your number 1 Fan in Melbourne, Australia 🇦🇺
Say hello to everyone. Thank you.
That’s a nice running 340 Nick. I like the factory exhaust manifolds myself. Not a header fan.
Awesome. You reverted the 72 smogger 340 almost back to 71 specs with the 2.02 valves and increased CR (but not all the way to 10.5:1). That super-secret cam seems like a beast. But with no load on the alternator, I don't think this was a true "net HP" test. My dad raced an almost stock '70 340 Swinger for 35 years, and I always nagged him to put a set of headers in that thing. Looks like he was right, wouldn't have made much difference!
I agree
This thermal quad is sweet. When they are working correctly, hard to beat the performance.
Wow that was worth the watch Nick, Manny, George & Niko as that 340 is one sweet looking & sounding small block and I'm sure the owner Bob will be more than pleased with it. Have an awesome week guy's.
Thanks for the visit, Blinkie.
Your welcome Nick & Team.
Hey Nick ! it is so easy to see the lift ? with a digital caliper set it to side of lobe zero it and then go to the hump . Oh but you are old school and know this already ......... These 340 were designed to use pop up pistons and we put cams but under .500 lift . because they got to rough and would stall at idle .
Dial indicator on the spring retainer is much more accurate and makes up for inaccurate rocker arms.
@@hotrodray6802 Did you happen to notice the intake lobe centerline @ 114°? Smooth-ish idle, tons of vacuum means it's a wide LSA cam, probably 112-114.
Love it , I took a 71 rusted demon and pulled the drive line out and put it into a 67 Plymouth barracuda notch back, kept the thrmoquad, stock manifolds, put a bit more cam into it, changed out to 3:54 from a highway gear, dropped in a Mopar stall torque converter... Lighten up the cuda .. it ate ford & Chevy's mouse & rat engines .. motor was 9 -10 yrs old at that time, low miles .. back then we thought 90k was about junk
With that oil it almost was.
Exact same thing i done except wt a 4 speed car! Man thats the worst misstake i ever made selling that car! But people bugged me for miles & miles over that car!
@@anthonyking4387 I keep looking .. when I find the car I don't have the funds . When I gave the funds I can't find the car . Medically retired, I didn't sell mine ... It was taken by a older guy I swore I get back at , but time got away from me
no misses on our end running perfect
Lost 15 with the alternator, that's why you need the 15 with the headers, also the air filter did restrict the power, it also made the carb run richer and gave the power back, that's why there was no loss of power after adding the air filter
I have always enjoyed the sound of the thermal quad 4 barrel carburetor
Boy I sure like this video on the 340. I have a 340 in my 70 Vanishing Point Challenger. 727 automatic with a 2800 stall converter. Stock heads slightly ported. .500 lift cam with matching springs. Air gap intake with 750 avs. Headers and 7 qt. pan. My set up is close to this one and always put the power at about 350 hp. Just a guess. Thanks for the video Nick. Have a great week.
Love the 340!
We do too!
It would be interesting to compare the numbers with the 68-71 manifolds.
Me too. I wish I had a set on hand, I would have tested them also.
Hello Nick and crew
Hey there!
Can't wait to see it in the car.
Can't wait to DRIVE it in the car. 😃
Thanks Nick. Have you ever about doing A Transmission Comparison Video. I think it would work.@@NicksGarage
The 1965 833 was the fastest trans ive ever gotten my hands on & the toughest also! Just got lucky but i never had to lift!
Nick,that engine has a lot of ring pressure loss.blowby. you do good work I dont miss anything thank you.
Manny great job on those valves 👍☝
Manny is the man!
@@NicksGarage manny knows how to do it
I had a 71 Challenger 340 R/T in 1980. it was the hemi orange painted block (not the later blue), with a holley 600 double pumper, dual point accel distributor, three angle valve job, crane fireball cam and headers. it was pretty obvious to anyone who drove it that it had way more power than stock, probably well over 350HP just like your engine.
Thank you, very nice!
Also headers do improve some torque throughout the mid-range so make sure you check that
I factory ordered my 1974 Challenger 360 Rallye 4 speed, No factory AC or Power Steering...
Great to see Niko with Nick and Manny!
Bob is going to surprise some people with this engine.
Great Job Nick, Manny, and Niko!!!!! Love the 340 with Manifold.
Good work Bob
Wonder what the difference is from the '72 340 factory exhaust manifolds to the 1968 to '70 factory exhaust manifolds?
Congrats on the 340 engine build guy's....An all of the dyno testing = A fine video 👍
Old F-4 Shoe🇺🇸
You have done the header/stk manifold comparison befoer and yes, why put those complelicated headers on.?
Indeed!
It sounds incredible!!
Wow, that 340 surprised me with those #`s. Most guys go with headers for the tone. Love the comparison tests Nick. Great job. As usual, George`s camera work is on point.👍 I called 30 hp loss with belts, manifolds and air cleaner. I was not off by much😁 That 340 sounds so sweet!
Thanks! 👍