This game started at a 7.5 and went to a 9.5 around ten games in, as we tried all the strategies. Now I am not sure I can give it more than a 6 as we then realised that nearly every one of our ten games was won by deer and wolves. Nearly everything else is a trap, my wife played 5 free butterflies with a mole, it was brilliant but is hugely outscored by deer and wolves. You can do well with trees and lizards but nearly everything else is a way to lose. In games I often say ‘trust the designer’ as I try a new strategy, here my trust is misplaced. Such a shame as this game showed such great potential. I guess this is also a criticism of how games are reviewed on platforms like Dicetower as the first few plays are brilliant and get better until you realise that balance is hugely off.
100% this. The core gameplay loops is great, the game is beautiful and pleasant to play... But the balance is so, so, so horribly off that every game boils down to deer + wolves. With proper balancing this game could warrant the score given by DT; however, as it stands, the game falls hard off a cliff once the honeymoon period wears off and strategies are refined. The game has *potential* for a solid 8.5 in my opinion. In its present state, it is unfortunately no more than a 5.5 as every game devolves into Deers & Wolves.
While I agree that deer + wolves are strong, I've noticed that players (at least the experienced ones) are good about not letting one player run away with this type of scoring - it only gets obscene if one player gets a ton of stuff.
@@undersci which makes the game devolve into taking/denying deers and wolves rather than, you know, have a healthy variety of strategies. The game is borderline unplayable **unless** you treat it as a braindead filler. Which is a shame because it has a lot of potential and deserve better.
I don't usually love tableau builders, but this one packs so many interesting decisions into a relatively short play time. The tenseness of the hand management is almost reminiscent of Race for the Galaxy.
I think they completely skipped over the balancing issues. That said, the game seems really good as a casual filler. And the split cards aren't the only new-ish thing, but also that you place them around a center card in that certain way and that it works really well, mechanically and thematically (!), and that (basically) every card has one or multiple scoring mechanics on it and thereby offers a different strategy, every card(!). I usually don't really like the discard-cards-to-pay-costs mechanic, but here it works well and gives good tension, because you have to consider the tradeoff of offering the cards to the other players, but if you time it right you can wipe the card display and thereby get rid of those cards so that others can't use them. The cave mechanic is a bit dull and not that thematic, though. And the card backs could be better, there should be a tree on it if you can use it as a tree. And get rid of that white symbol.
Very surprised there is no mention of most people’s problem with this game - the long-winded fiddly end-of-game scoring! Scores can add up to over 300(!) & is the main reason this is best played on BGA only.
I just wish they had kept the original German name of "Mischwald", which refers to a particular type of "mixed forest", but also works as a pun about shuffling up the deck of cards. Obviously English speakers wouldn't get the pun, but the name "Forest Shuffle" feels very weird to me.
Really like on BGA. The tucking seems mildly tricky in person and calculating points at end seems like a lot compared to on BGA. Fun strategies but deer and wolf seem to pervade most strategies
Interesting, because I saw the strategy with playing more trees and it worked for me at least three times, not in a row, but, for a moment, I was thinking that it was the better strategy out there, untill I was blasted off by some deers! And that`s the beauty with BGA, you could replay the game you lost and see another strategy. :)) I think that there are a lot of ways to win this, and also varies from the luck of the cards, because you could have a strategy in your head, but you need to adapt to the cards. Overall a great game! (it reminded me of Codex Naturalis with the touching of the cards and the goals to make points)
I've played plenty of games with more complicated scoring. Maybe it's a little bit more than one would expect because the gameplay is smooth, but I dint find it nearly as torturous as some claims I'm seeing.
@@jamesjacobthomson6198that’s not really true, it’s way more than 4. Still not terrible, but each of those 4 lines on the scoresheet usually has like 3-8 different items you’re scoring, many of which are decently complicated
im with tom ... its a super smart game ... all n all but unlike earth ... u cant make points just everywhere ... u have to think alot and make lots of planing ... earth is very comfortable and no stress at all ... this one also is way more thematic ... those winter cards ... its like the time of the year that u feel the wind is colder ... earth is colder and winter gonna start anyday ... and u have to manage risk there ... boy this game is super smart top to buttom ... love it love it love it
This game would have been so much cooler with small translucent cards and tree tiles big enough for 4 small cards. Then you place the animals in the forest.
That this review doesnt not even mention the balancing problem is a huge problem. Tom is giving it a 9 when the game is basically broken? If people buy this game upon this review, they could feel deceived. Respectfully, I think this video needs a follow up adressing the issues, or maybe even taking this video down, and doing a new version.
We've all played it multiple times since then and still don't have that complaint. I, for one, am not necessarily playing it at such a high level that I'm worried about it. I saw someone nearly win a game by planting nothing but trees. There's plenty of fun to be had still!
This game started at a 7.5 and went to a 9.5 around ten games in, as we tried all the strategies. Now I am not sure I can give it more than a 6 as we then realised that nearly every one of our ten games was won by deer and wolves. Nearly everything else is a trap, my wife played 5 free butterflies with a mole, it was brilliant but is hugely outscored by deer and wolves. You can do well with trees and lizards but nearly everything else is a way to lose. In games I often say ‘trust the designer’ as I try a new strategy, here my trust is misplaced.
Such a shame as this game showed such great potential. I guess this is also a criticism of how games are reviewed on platforms like Dicetower as the first few plays are brilliant and get better until you realise that balance is hugely off.
100% this. The core gameplay loops is great, the game is beautiful and pleasant to play... But the balance is so, so, so horribly off that every game boils down to deer + wolves. With proper balancing this game could warrant the score given by DT; however, as it stands, the game falls hard off a cliff once the honeymoon period wears off and strategies are refined.
The game has *potential* for a solid 8.5 in my opinion. In its present state, it is unfortunately no more than a 5.5 as every game devolves into Deers & Wolves.
Thanks for pointing this out.
While I agree that deer + wolves are strong, I've noticed that players (at least the experienced ones) are good about not letting one player run away with this type of scoring - it only gets obscene if one player gets a ton of stuff.
@@undersci which makes the game devolve into taking/denying deers and wolves rather than, you know, have a healthy variety of strategies.
The game is borderline unplayable **unless** you treat it as a braindead filler. Which is a shame because it has a lot of potential and deserve better.
I feel someone from the Dice Tower should test this and upgrade their rating
This game is on BGA btw...
I really like it on there, so much so that I don’t think I need to buy the physical game, which is quite the table hog
What’s BGA?
the tutorial for this on bga is maybe the worst ive ever seen, the cards are also not redable
I don't usually love tableau builders, but this one packs so many interesting decisions into a relatively short play time. The tenseness of the hand management is almost reminiscent of Race for the Galaxy.
I love it, too! The bear is quite okay. But the more or less unbeatable combo is Wolf/Deers! And that's a little problem for the game, too. Have fun!
I think they completely skipped over the balancing issues.
That said, the game seems really good as a casual filler.
And the split cards aren't the only new-ish thing, but also that you place them around a center card in that certain way and that it works really well, mechanically and thematically (!), and that (basically) every card has one or multiple scoring mechanics on it and thereby offers a different strategy, every card(!).
I usually don't really like the discard-cards-to-pay-costs mechanic, but here it works well and gives good tension, because you have to consider the tradeoff of offering the cards to the other players, but if you time it right you can wipe the card display and thereby get rid of those cards so that others can't use them.
The cave mechanic is a bit dull and not that thematic, though. And the card backs could be better, there should be a tree on it if you can use it as a tree. And get rid of that white symbol.
One of my favorite games this year!
MrBeast?
@@peterkarlsson1825 shhhhh.....
Very surprised there is no mention of most people’s problem with this game - the long-winded fiddly end-of-game scoring!
Scores can add up to over 300(!) & is the main reason this is best played on BGA only.
Hearing BGA it due to the scoring being a pain in the… but it is so pretty and combolicious…😍
This looks like our style of game will definitely be adding to the Christmas list
I just wish they had kept the original German name of "Mischwald", which refers to a particular type of "mixed forest", but also works as a pun about shuffling up the deck of cards. Obviously English speakers wouldn't get the pun, but the name "Forest Shuffle" feels very weird to me.
I've really enjoyed this one on BGA. Definitely grabbing a copy!
Really like on BGA. The tucking seems mildly tricky in person and calculating points at end seems like a lot compared to on BGA. Fun strategies but deer and wolf seem to pervade most strategies
Interesting, because I saw the strategy with playing more trees and it worked for me at least three times, not in a row, but, for a moment, I was thinking that it was the better strategy out there, untill I was blasted off by some deers! And that`s the beauty with BGA, you could replay the game you lost and see another strategy. :)) I think that there are a lot of ways to win this, and also varies from the luck of the cards, because you could have a strategy in your head, but you need to adapt to the cards. Overall a great game! (it reminded me of Codex Naturalis with the touching of the cards and the goals to make points)
Brasil loves this game so much!!
So basically this game is a "mash up" of Lost Cities, Arboretum, Meadow, & The Bloody Inn? Color me intrigued!!
Don't forget Race for the Galaxy.
Looks great… Is scoring really long and fiddly compared to the length of the actual play?
You score 4 things, which is fairly quick and manageable.
I've played plenty of games with more complicated scoring. Maybe it's a little bit more than one would expect because the gameplay is smooth, but I dint find it nearly as torturous as some claims I'm seeing.
@@jamesjacobthomson6198that’s not really true, it’s way more than 4. Still not terrible, but each of those 4 lines on the scoresheet usually has like 3-8 different items you’re scoring, many of which are decently complicated
im with tom ... its a super smart game ... all n all but unlike earth ... u cant make points just everywhere ... u have to think alot and make lots of planing ... earth is very comfortable and no stress at all ... this one also is way more thematic ... those winter cards ... its like the time of the year that u feel the wind is colder ... earth is colder and winter gonna start anyday ... and u have to manage risk there ... boy this game is super smart top to buttom ... love it love it love it
How does this compare to Fantasy Realms?
How is the card/component quality?
Bad. The cards are thin and made of paper. I immediately sleeved them to avoid damage.
I love this on BGA! The physical copy is such a let down, especially the bookkeeping, and iconology.
BGA =9 Physical Copy =6
Some days you hate the bear, some days the bear eats your tree strategy and sits on your table.
This game would have been so much cooler with small translucent cards and tree tiles big enough for 4 small cards. Then you place the animals in the forest.
Looks like a nice , enjoyable filler game- I am intrigued.
That this review doesnt not even mention the balancing problem is a huge problem. Tom is giving it a 9 when the game is basically broken? If people buy this game upon this review, they could feel deceived. Respectfully, I think this video needs a follow up adressing the issues, or maybe even taking this video down, and doing a new version.
We've all played it multiple times since then and still don't have that complaint. I, for one, am not necessarily playing it at such a high level that I'm worried about it. I saw someone nearly win a game by planting nothing but trees. There's plenty of fun to be had still!
This one is much better than Wingspan and Earth. There is no interaction in Earth and this game has much more.
If this game is like Earth then i definitely won't like it
Earth was so overrated
I didn't like Earth very much. But this one is very good. Even when not perfectly balanced.
I think I'd play this over Earth. But I would've loved to hear some actual criticism in this review.
I played this once after GenCon... It was pretty forgetable, I can see all the strategy possibilities and all, but I just found it a boring game.
I agree.
These guys are nuts. Honestly is this serious? Maybe they are seeing many more awful games than I do but in my world this game is average at best
And that, my friend, is what is called a difference of opinion! :)
Indeed :) @@thedicetower