1 practical issue is being a hauler who needs to traverse a distance in atmo towards a destination. The hauler now needs to choose between having markers or shields, but never both. - just a thought
This is my primary gripe with the system as it is now. We need some sort of navigation symbology available outside of quantum modes. This has already been a problem for ships without quantum drives for a long time. We need a persistent level of navigation data for all modes.
@@sheetpostmodernist398yeah trying to get a Argo mpuv from port tressler to microtech for a laugh proved practically impossible before they put that light ring around them. It would be good if this was considered even if it was only visible when pointing in the general vicinity of it and just to the a set waypoint and not on everything
That problem is going to vanish the moment they enable us to put markers on the map like we can for the on foot maps. It's not in alredy because they are still working on it. I'm not gonna say that the new systems are perfect, but ppl can't be shitting on everityng just because they can't see the full picture wile still missing some pieces of the puzle. It's annoing not having markers wile you fly? Yes. Will it be always like that? No.
Actually really good feedback that I totally share! Markers, UI, and even the new star map really do need even more QoL. We gotta think of this is hard for us, new players will get extremely confused.
do you mean the Quantum markers when in NAV mode? Theyve added FLT operator mode in NAV master mode that you access via MMB, which removes quantum markers. Theyre also talking about making it the default operator mode when switching to NAV mode.
Its just ridiculous that a ship manufacture would sell a ship that doesn't have enough power to have shields when in nav mode. Not being able to regen sure that's a balance / game move but no shields is nonsensical for in game law. Add to that no counter measures in nav and the massive lag to switch between mods is a punish.
if you hit middle mouse button, it switches modes to FLT or SCAN, (or Missile/scan in SCM). when in FLT while in nav mode you dont have the QT markers.
There are a lot of people who do not remember the change from 2.X flight modes to the 3.X flight model. Everyone was up in arms. Initially I was one of them, 2.63 was a really great flight model and was really fun. 3.0 was terrible by all measures, but it evolved and improved. I still find 2.63 to be better than 3.22, but so many people don't know any different. The fact that Master Modes is so fun now, I can only imagine how much better it will get as it evolves. People always resist change.
@@szakattkorts From what I remember the old old flight model felt a little like mastermodes, because you had SCM and you could use boost to get above the max SCM speed. I'm pretty sure you could also switch to a different mode like the new NAV mode to fly at around 1000m/s instead of old SCM's limit of 200-300m/s.
MM is fun for noobs sorry to say it. combat died after 2.x and the new and improved fm took away throttle game play and gave us a car speeder instead, complete with speed limiter and cruse controle, john crew loves when players are sad about ships and yoki was a sound guy before getting moved to the flight model, and its been down hill ever since, MM is made for noobs by noobs. not only that, CIG is pissing on the original backers with such a lame flight model, MM will split the fan base in two, briliant tactic worked great for disney starwares, and the more rainbow flags and purple haired devs you see at CIG the more you know, they are gona make it lame and ...
You want actual arguments? Here you go: Master mode itself (the switching) is not the major source of complaint. It's everything that happens below 600 m/s, including the decision to split SCM into two: SCM speed and boosted SCM speed. Basically we have 3 modes (4 if you want to include landing gear down). For flight below 600 m/s ("SCM mode") here are the issues: Removing tri-cording has profound effects on flight. The glaring obvious mistake in the removal of tri-cording, is that the ship loses maneuverability just by flying forward. If the game limits the total velocity-vector to maximum forward acceleration of the ship, you can't strafe to the sides while flying forward. This is why boosting still "feels off" and on rails. Because you can't strafe to the sides while pushing forward, you are at a disadvantage vs. someone just drifting, as they can freely apply maximum strafes in all directions and be more evasive. *So the game punishes the active player for flying forward. And rewards the passive player.* The correct way to handle tri-cording, is to account for it in ship tuning and balancing, so it can be in the game without disturbing the intended balance of the ships. Tri-cording has always been a part of the game, but did not become meta since 3.14 flight model tuning. In 3.10, the benefit of tri-cording was only 17 % vs. a whooping 35 % in 3.14. In 3.10, tri-cording was never an issue or necessary to use in the vast majority of combat. You will not find a single Spectrum post from 2021 where people complained about tri-cording. Hence, my recommendation would be to lower strafe G for a light fighter archetype to maximum 8 G. Perhaps it would be even better with 6 G and leave strafes unaffected by boost. To prevent the flight model to feel "slidy" or "drifting without intent", let the players have more retro thrust, so it's easier to stop the momentum of a ship. In 3.10 a Gladius had 6G unboosted retro and 12G with boost. Since then we nerfed retro several times in the hope it would solve backstrafing. But the truth is, that the strong lateral strafes are much more to blame for backstrafing, as it's just a matter of sliding out of the circle with centrifugal force assisted with lateral strafes. And really pure backpedaling should be solved through G-forces. Get rid of space-drag boost. It serves no purpose and does not fulfill the design intention ("encouraging to close the gap"). In fact, it *punishes* the pusher by having them spend a valuable resource (boost) on top of the above designflaw of removing tri-cording. One unified SCM/Boost space is the way to go. What the top speed should be is subject to testing. But between 400 and 600 m/s is reasonable range for testing.
And I actually agree with you! But I don’t think that means throw the whole model out. Yogi and the team at least said aware the boost pattern they’ve set up isn’t achieving what it’s suppose to. Do I miss tricording, and I do agree “backstrafing” is usually a result of bi-cording (backward and horizontal) which happens in 3.22 horribly too. I have a video on my main channel of me fighting another push pilot named Delta, and when you push eachother in 3.22 it works AMAZING. Problem is no one wants to push! I think making the boost pattern Asymectic (heavy vertical) could also help while doing what you suggested turning lateral strafes down. This is a problem that only really effects 1v1 mirror builds imo, and while I’d love to see it fixed 100% am sticking to my guns that fleet combat matters more.
@@BerksReacts No, they don't need to throw nav modes and associated systems away. Most of us have been begging for lower speeds for years (the most often mentioned speed people requested was 600 m/s or cutting the speeds in half). Even if I think nav-mode could have been solved more elegantly (Hunternet Starfighter way of reducing acceleration the faster you go), I don't have much problems with a hard division. Although hard speed walls always cause a problems. E.g. locking players in their relative positions at max speed (We even see that problem in SCM in MM with 220 m/s). But everything they did below nav mode needs to be scrapped. They took the worst part of 3.14 (live), which is the super high strafes, and made it worse by limiting tri-cording instead of addressing the core issue. Then they added space-drag on top, which serves no purpose other than making players feel like they are stuck in mud (it's not helping the pusher as intended, on the contrary). I know the counter argument will be: If we remove drag/boost everyone is just going to be flying 600 m/s. Well, maybe topspeed without space-drag should only be 400, or 450, etc. People are going these speeds with boost anyway!! That's why the Bucc is the most popular ship. Lastly, 1v1 is a fundamental part of the game. Not only are most encounters in the PU small groups or 1v1. But even a fleet battle will include several 1v1s inside the context of the entire battle. Squadrons battle is in no way representative for the PU. And you're having fun because the opponent can keep coming back and the battle continues. But in the PU after you focus fire all the opponents and the battle is over in 45 seconds, you're going to be bored - even if you're the winning. Sqadrons battle is essentially only 3rd partying, there is no real fighting. And a lot of combat will never take place. "Ah we are only 2v5, this is a fight we cannot take". It's going to be so boring, and outside ganking is going to kill combat in the PU. Wait and see.
@@BerksReactsI greatly enjoy hearing different opinions about MM. I tried the AC MM test once and I personally didn't like it. I will follow up with the fact that I am NOT a combat pilot. I skimmed AvengerOne's pilot course mostly so I could survive encounters with pirates. AvengerOne's view of MM is constructively negative. As he is a respected name amongst the combat community I have been aligning with his views. Hearing your side has brigthened my look on MM. As long as they don't touch the health pool on the Retaliator or nerf the manuevering of the Hercules or Spirits I will be a happy camper.
@@scdude9509 hunternet is an amazing flight model, no questions from me BUT even it’s issues. I’m not sure where it stands, but they were having serious issues with wiggling last I played, just goes to show lots of these problems are hard to tackle. Go one way too much? Bad. Bring it back to much? Bad again. I don’t envy CIG for having to do that with 150 ships. I think it’s also agree 1v1’s are apart but they’ve been the priority for 8 years. And in a MMO (what CIG is aiming for), multicrew should be the priority. The other side of 2v5 being goofy in master modes is that it’s dumb in can survive 30 mins with 20 enemies on you in 3.22 flying full speed. I agree it will limit some combat, but it’s a limit that makes way more sense. Why should a smaller group have an advantage over a bigger one?
Its a lot more involved than that dude. I agree light fighters were overpowered. But you cant dodge fire now even in the most nimble ships. Whats the point if your flying no longer matters? We already did this in 2017 and 2018 It sucked then and it sucks now. All the bored pvp players are just going to go hunt the rest of the server now because dogfighting has been nerfed out of the game. Que all the pvp vs griefing videos. They will change it back in 2 years, just like before. Dumbing down the flight model is never good. You will see.
@@rybuds47 Problem is you were not dodging fire you were taking advantage of the broken targeting system by doing a corkscrew which requires no skill at all. Speeds were also to high for the G-forces you are pulling, 9 G's will kill a person and fighters are pulling well over 20 which is just ridiculously stupid.
@@ZaneDragonBorn No we had master modes years ago, that is where SCM comes from, SCM= Space Combat Mode. And when you went into what is now travel mode you could barely turn your ship due to G-forces.
The fights look good because you can actually see stuff and it´s not just zooming by. There are some issues, it kinda feels like a dps race right now and so on, but those issues can be resolved. I´m certainly having fun right now, much more as with the old system. That´s for sure.
Master modes is focused on either dogfighting, or cruising. There's a 3rd aspect to this game, which is running away from a fight, or rather, fighting your way out of a fight. With this change (and I'm talking about the waiting times between mode switching and loss of shields and weapons in NAV), running away is far more punishing or near impossible. Which kind of forces you to stay and fight, or just give up. And remember, a lot of people don't want the PvP aspect of the game. They acknowledge it exists, but at least they had a way to run from it (though unbalance in my opinion prior to 3.23). Now, it feels they lost that. Either stay and fight, or pretty much risk being blown out of the sky within the time it takes you to change modes and reach full speed.
It’s hard to take anyone seriously who opens their feedback up with an insult that isn’t even fair. CIG is adjusting values of over 150 ships, oh course a few of them will feel wack at first and get better as they move one. Are there concerns with MM? 100%. I address a lot of them if you watch the video, CIG is also aware of a lot of them. But some of the claims are so far exaggerated it comes across that the only thing people really don’t like is change.
@@BerksReacts but then again, 000-62 is so right, but that is the trend now a days, get offended when presented logic and facts.. MM is a shit show, every thing john crew and yoki have made is sadly just subpar with they stuff it replaced, and over they years they have nerfed dummed down every thing, and lets not get starded on the UI made for console.. once MM hits live for the masses they are gonna have a shit storm. MM goes agenst so much of the original pitch for SC.. thats gonna piss off there oldest fans, fans like me.. that worked out great for disney starwars did it not? john crew sounds like he hates spaceships and gloate when players complain about the nerfs, and yoki was a sound guy at cig before getting moved to the flight team.. the old FM was made by john pritchett with menny space sims under his belt.. tells alot right there
@@BerksReacts The main problem right now is the "trapping mechanism" in not combat ship and many cooldowns while travel. Right now I feel only combat focus gameplay get benfits on the MM and that is not i do daily.
@@BerksReacts I have the impression that you don't understand or don't want to understand what we mean, it's not about the ship configuration, it's about the fun of tricording, flying at high speeds, freedom from modes, a great flight model that players love. Master mode is a model taken straight from Star Wars Squadron or War Plane (more arcade). Instead of fixing the network code, they slow down flight speeds, instead of teaching players how to fly and merge in combat, they change the system. This is not the direction we want and why the post has so many likes
Berks I appreciate your opinion even above my own in all matters flight. I am average at best and just can't find something I like about master modes and will admit my personal 3.23 experience was bad with the patch was bad in a whole. Issues with MM for me. 1 Combat feels like a numbers game. 2 Switching modes constantly feels like it interrupts too much of the gameplay. 3 Personal gripe with the landing gear speed limitation. 4 Keeping nose on target is too easy. 5 I have concerns when AI is functional, and you get pulled out of quantum and cig spawns their favorite ship the hammerhead. Personally, I think you are dead before you get your shields up or are able to spool up to get away in most ships. 6 Positioning on the rear of a target is nearly impossible. 7 Hit and run tactics seems like the dominant strategy (this was in AC 3.22) We will see how it goes in the PU, personally I think this format is going to lead to a lot more piracy and combat and the current state of MM is going to make me skip 3.23 and probably just hit the event patch to check what is new. I might be wrong, but my feeling is that you definitely don't want to be caught flying solo in anything.
I haven't tried master modes yet, but have a question. What's to stop someone from just one-shoting you when you come out of quantum at an OM? Your shields are down and without shields you are just a sitting duck. Is this the case or am I misunderstanding how the system works? The C2 for example takes FOREVER to get shields up in live. You would never be able to get shields up in time even if you turned on SCM right after you got out of Quantum.
What’s stopping them is you’re in NAV mode, and they aren’t. You should fly away 100%, and as far ask I can tell you totally can in 95% of the cases (excluding if they have a mantis) Also it’s important to note that shield recovery for NAV to SCM is INSANELY fast compared to if you just turn them on and off. Maybe 3 seconds totally for a big ship like the C2. That being said just away. I think the mantis will have an interesting place, but in 3.22 it’s also impossible to escape one unless you can manage to take it out.
@@BerksReacts thanks for letting me know about the recharge rates. Like I said, I haven't tried Master Modes so I was genuinely curious as to how that would work. If it only that's 3 seconds, then that is awesome and it is a non issue. But I really was curious.
While I wouldn't expect an amazing flight performance from a mining ship that looked like it'd have trouble avoiding the rocks it was mining. It does feel a bit like they wanted to make a big change but without all the pieces to make it work. Of course there's tuning to do no matter what and maybe they just needed to get something functionally in game to build upon.
The industry ships got nerfed big time, I DONT think it will stay this way. The prospector feels completely out of place. Agreed, and should be updated with a balance change along with the C1 and a few others.
@@BerksReacts I think one of the issues CIG has with almost all of their flight models is that it is almost impossible to base a flight model on how something should feel. Ships often don't feel like the massive things they are because the thrust output of the vehicles makes them more agile than their mass should allow. So if a change comes in that makes ships feel massive and gives them inertia, then people complain because the ships don't feel good anymore. It is a no win situation for CIG.
I think once they have tuned every ship to where it needs to be, MM will be good and people will get used to it. MM is pretty much here to stay so best thing we can do is just give feedback, rather than to argue against having MM.
Everyone needs to stop expecting a knee-jerk fix. Smart way to balance is making small adjustments to fine tune the model. This is a new flight model give it time to be adjusted ship by ship.
Most of MM is good. My biggest issue is that they changed cruise control rendering a HOTAS throttle basically useless now. They also broke how coupled/decoupled flight works. Precision flight for landing and takeoff is much more difficult as the directional thrusters no longer keep you from drifting.
only thing i would probly have issue with is finding button on hotas to swap modes but if they would get it passivly trigger like as some say power management max power to engines spools up nav mode. so on
This is only partially true and I feel like it’s being a bit exaggerated on the account that you would get hit less doing the EXACT same maneuver because in 3.22 you can do it at max speed. Along with this, people have become way way too dependent on retrothrust. It is so incredible rare to run into another push pilot in the PU. People say that there’s no positional combat in 3.23, but is there any in 3.22 if the pilot knows how to back up? Nope. It was especially bad with ships that could fly faster than others aka the F8C. 1v1 in mirror builds are the only ones who struggle with this problem in MM, and CIG is actively trying to fix it.
My beef with MM is how slow it is because its boring. The ones that like it are the ones that cant think fast enough to enjoy the competition of speed! AS for liking or disliking it I am holding my thoughts for now and need to put at least 60 hours into playing it before I can honestly have an opinion. Not fond of the additional modes. Like WTF, why do we need all these flight modes?
I mean there’s no maneuverable flight in the combat for master modes. It makes flight so slow, I can’t even do any cinematic flight. That is a REAL reason. It’s not hard to understand. I cannot dodge any missiles in which flares isn’t enough for with this model. And now, quantum dampener in 3.23 forces ships out of nav mode to SCM fight mode only. Master modes specifically will be forcing pvp combat with 3.23 release. This is coming from someone who’s a miner, cargo runner, and salvager. I’ve fought, dodged, ran from, and squared off from mongrel squad and griefernet plenty of times. Not new to combat to hold my own either.
the only issue I have really is the during combat the disengage from a battle and boost feels like it only welps toward turning only and not assisting very well with dodging. Also the esp pip issue where the pip is even more out of control which idk if thats intended or a bug but its awful. Lastly the it looks like they are working on the spray and pray but that was ridiculous were you where just consistently getting hit from like over 3k away. Once they do something about these 3 it would become fun for me.
PU MM I was kinda skeptical. Once I figured out MM addition keys and got 'em bind. It's growing on me. I do think SCM speed does need a small increase 285-320. Seems to slow and boring flying toward a station at 215. As for MM controversy, it was my understanding that this is not a set in stone.
@@Billy-bc8pk I will answer your question with a question: why would you travel somewhere unprepared? Past experience of being attacked while flying in to land.
@@SolusPicaroon If anyone attacks you at a station at SCM speeds, they will be flattened in seconds before they can do anything with the new turrets. And before you say "The turrets don't work!" you're right, in live they do not work due to combat speeds being 1,000 m/s+. At 200 m/s, the people who attack people at stations are basically sitting ducks. So if you want to fly into a station at 200 m/s, you can, but you're only inconveniencing yourself.
@Billy I think that's kind of the point.. it's so confusing and clunk that nobody really knows how to fly anymore without doing it in a textbook boring way in MM..
Thank you for this video and bringing the argument forward. I feel that MM slows everything down and I don't have a lot of maneuverability. (By design). But it isn't anything can't be tweaked.
I think we should have even more realism in the flight model. Let's start having characters stroke out when they pull more than 9G's for a few seconds then we'll have a "realistic" flight model. Seriously though, I think with further tweaks and adjustments MM is a strong basis for the flight model SC needs.
Meh 🤷🏻♂️ Small potatoes compared to the rest of the current issues imo..I also hate that my guy is always g forcing out. Just adds unnecessary convolutedness imo
my biggest problem with master modes is the break with physics. Especially the fact that you slow down again after boosting in space. Nothing slows you down in a vacuum! SC was announced as a space sim. My suggestion: Boost accelerates you faster, but doesn't give you a higher maximum speed.
The 3.22 model is also extremely Arcady. While I’m not attached to the speed increase with boost, I think saying it doesn’t line up reality doesn’t really fit SC. The main bad guy is S42 is space sharks, we fly crab ships made by tree people. CIG has said “Space Sim” but what they meant was “SciFi Sim” on the fact alone if it was realistic you’d be shooting missiles from thousands of Kilometers away without ever seeing your target. Chris as wanted Starwars style combat forever and I think this gets us closer. I’m not disagreeing with your point, I just think realism ≠ SC!
I very much hope that isn't the case in decoupled mode, else I'm utterly disappointed. Same with landing, I want to land decoupled at high speed and hitting space break at the last moment after my 180 for supersmooth and awesome looking landing. I dislike artificial limits a lot - in any game.
@@BerksReacts think about Battlestar Galactica Fighters. It is close combat but witth 6 degree of freedom and not like WWII Dogfights. I think CIG can bring both worlds together. Close Combat and somehow near real physics, at least with a believable physics 🙂
@berks SW flight is not remotely real and totally sci fi sim.. I love the idea of Sci Fi sim.. I don't want a space sim that's too realistic.. like being on set in a movie.. no magic at all. I can agree with you on a lot...but the feeling of decoupled "intertia", in space, real or sci fi, sure doesn't feel "arcadey" .. Fighting my ship for supremacy and losing the "feeling" of inertia in MM, very much does.
They need to make SCM mode function the way the current flight model does, and then make Nav mode WAY faster. SCM mode is WAY too slow for me personally.
The problem is that it negates throttle flight. This space sim (originally billed as a sim) is throwing out the use/skill of HOTAS. Great if it's good for M&K as well as HOSAS, but not so great that it ruins throttle skill
We're new to SC (2 weeks) but MM feels more like elite-dangerous to us (more realistic, more difficult) and 3.22 feels more like no man's sky. We're fine with the change, but we're also not having to un-learn years of muscle memory. Lower overall speeds and having to shut down your shield to go fast is a big change, I can see why people are afraid of it. They'll get used to it.
MM squishes the skill ceiling. Bad players love it because now they can do better. Great players hate it because they are riding the Ceiling knowing they are being held back.
Mastermodes sucks because they force you to use scm mode in Racing now. If they revert that change I have no problem with it. The high speed is one of the thing that made racing unique in SC.
Racing needs it's own mode I think. Or, racing ships should just have a different SCM, but in that scenario they would likely need to remove the ability to have weapons.
@@BerksReacts I am not in testing myself but I heard you are forced into SCM mode or need to be in scm mode in order to race. They already talked about adjusting the tracks to the slower speeds.
"We've been asking for Daymar-style combat for years and we finally got it!" Daymar combat is (light) atmospheric combat. I NEVER wanted atmospheric combat in space. I was always happy that people who preferred that plane-like combat could go fight in atmo to have it, but I loved having a space-like experience in space. "The skill ceiling is not gone, it's just changed." The skill of knowing when to enter/exit combat is important, but I don't play a flight sim because I love being good at choosing when to fight or run away... I love playing flight sims because I love being good at flying. I want to be able to dodge incoming fire while spiraling around enemies and obstacles, but most of that is gone in MM (RIP racing players). Obviously speeds had to come down, but a full SEVEN years ago we had Cruise Mode doing that for us (and it could have been iterated on). Obviously tiny ships shouldn't kill big ships, but soon ship armor will be handling that for us. They didn't have to change SO MANY things about flying with Master Modes in order to fix the issues of 3.22 flight.
I didn’t like it at first but I really didn’t notice a difference once actually using it. The only thing I dislike right now is that quantum is the default mode for nav mode, haven’t figured out how to change it yet so I can use the flip down trigger on my flight stick for it
Middle mouse button switches between Quantum/Flight/Scanning modes when in NAV. Switching Operator modes when you´re using sticks or other control setups.
I agree with you Berks. From all I've seen and the bit I've played. MM has been way more fun than combat in the UI, when I got to play it in AC it was a blast, very excited to see how it plays in 3.23 to get a final opinion. But so far, all the complaints I've seen are minor issues that can be worked out over time; with the overall model being just fine.
Thank You Berks. It's refreshing to see someone thinking with their head and express an opinion that isn't just the current "fashion" of the moment. It's nice to see someone actually back their statements with facts and logics. To summarize: Thank you.
I'm not sure how i feel about the decoupled mode and the changes there. You basically always fly in vector hold mode, i would like for them to have kept both decoupled modes so you can do a gravity drop. And currently the landing gear speed cap is driving me a bit nuts. But hop they will adjust it
@@zander3158 The gravity ting eventually got i key bind sins my first message. The landing gear speed cap I haven't found. What's it called? Think I found it. Thanks, the Auto Pressision mode. Only found keybinds, no settings for default
lol I love the way people give you the reason they don’t like it and you say “give me a real reason”. Hit sync is not being helped by MM, that’s server improvement, and yes exiting combat is an issue as you try to leave, your shields go down and now you have an interceptor and/or missiles up your thrusters and then you’re done.
My only issue is the time it takes to switch between scm and nav. If they would have fixed the bugs where you have to reset your quantum drive at multiple stops on a route it wouldn't be so bad.
My concern is basically no shields in NAV mode. Not only are you more vulnerable coming out of quantum, it will be hard to get out of combat if you don't want to fight. If you come out of quantum, by being interdicted, or ambushed, your shields are down, which should be your first line of defense. Now you must switch to SCM mode to defend yourself but it takes a while to get those shields up. You can try and run, but those missiles go fast. Also with no shields, looking at non combat scenarios, are we expected to switch from NAV to SCM every time a star does a solar flare? I know we can hide and we get warnings, but that just seems tedious to have to constantly switch between the modes. And there will be space debris in space, it doesn't make any sense to me personally to not have shields on your ship while exploring in a space game, it just doesn't. Having shields on in NAV mode is what I really feel is needed, that's basically it. Other than that I have no complains. If anything, make shields maybe be at 50% capacity in NAV mode to at least have some form of defense maybe.
Shields are pooled. It does not take a while to get the shields up, it happens rather quickly. Also, it doesn't matter if your shields are up during solar flares, your whole ship still loses power. And there is no space debris in Star Citizen that is affected by shields. In the current 3.22, if you get quantum interdicted by a group you cannot get away and if you are in an industrial ship you have no way of winning. Point blank.
RUclips loves to block my comments. In any case, what I was saying is that Master Modes is a missed opportunity. CIG doesn't have to get rid of MM. They could just shift mode switch out to the extremes of power management (100% engines) and let players choose whether they want to focus on more speed, more weapons, more defense and let most everything happen in SCM. Want more speed? Focus your power to engines, but you're sacrificing weapons and shield defense to a corresponding degree.
This was my first idea for caps forever ago, I was told briefly by a dev back in 3.14 “we tested it internally and it didn’t work out” not sure that means it wouldn’t work just CIG seems not to think so. I for one wouldn’t mind what you’re saying at all.
@@BerksReacts What do you think of the idea of each mode having their own capacitor values? That way each mode could be made more flexible while still having restrictions. So in SCM you could increase power to engines to go faster as the cost of weapons and shields. In Nav you could increase power to shields at the expense of engines so you're not as vulnerable. But in the end it's player choice.
I used to think that but I've got two worries with them tying it to Master Modes. 1. I don't think velocity caps should be another function of thruster assignment. It's better to balance those separately. 2. To balance it so you can't just instantly switch between systems and keep running, recharging shields etc they'd need more cooldowns and delays which then ends up being not entirely different to what they have no anyway. Capacitor management is already too micromanagy so honestly I don't think it's the right direction to offload even more functionality to it.
@@Fuar11 I would go even further ... if you run a ship with NO GUNS at all, you get a shield buff. Unequip them at the LZ and your HP goes up by 10% (for example). You decide from the get-go that you're playing defensively. Alternately, you could unequip all shields and get a weapons buff ... a Kamikazi loadout.
@@Fuar11 It just makes things more complex than they need to be, especially since capacitor values are being overhauled with engineering, subcomponent tuning, and maintenance.
I honestly hate MM because they just keep adding more and more bloat when it comes to flying. It started with missile operator mode and I was super okay with that, really good choice. Then it was the power triangle and capacitors; okay... like 4 more things to constantly keep track of while in combat. Now it's master modes. This is the worst combat has felt to me hands-down. It doesn't feel like I'm participating in ship combat as much as it feels like I'm in AimLabs just moving my crosshair onto targets. Backstrafing is worse now than I've ever seen and with strafing having a capped speed it feels really jarring, downright gross, when you pitch/yaw too far from the direction of travel and the game artificially slows you. It goes against all of my instincts when I'm trying to use conservation of energy to merge or "drift" into a favorable firing angle and it feels like someone attached a giant parachute to my ship mid-turn. I also don't like having yet another button I have to constantly press every single time I quantum travel somewhere, it gets tedious as hell. I vastly preferred the overclock/overheat system with shield face hardening. I guess I'm just jaded after what happened in 3.14 and feel that MMs will become another one of those; where they make a huge sweeping change that they promise will come with thoughtful updates and tweaks, but instead it sits there for another 3 years barely touched. I will say that MMs feels much better than current flight model ON FLIGHT STICKS. The slower speeds makes everything feel smoother but on mkb it's a jittery mess (combat anyway.) Things that need adjusted: Max speed should be max speed period, in any direction. How fast you GET to that speed is more important. Ships should be balanced by their design, not an arbitrary category like "light, medium, heavy" Shield importance should take a back seat to armor once it's implemented. There's several other issues I have but most of those are with the new UI and not specifically master modes.
Suppose I make yearly donations to Doctors Without Bourders. I do this because I believe in their mission, to provide medical care in 3rd world countries. Then, one day, I get a letter from them saying that they feel that providing abortions domestically is a better use of donated funds and will now be the focus of the organization MM is like this. It doesn't matter if it is better or not. It is a different game than what we backed. I have been putting a modest amount into the game every year for about 6 years because I believed in the vision presented. They are now pursuing a completely different vision. I am not crying over it, but I am no longer interested in logging in to the game. And will not put new money into SC this year - for the first time. Looking at CIG Financials, there was a notable drop-off at the time MM was showcased. I am really curious about what will happen with sales at Invictus this year. My prediction is it will fall off a cliff.
mastermodes is quite fun tbh however i have one gripe with it and that is the small target cirkels i play on a tv setup (couch citizen)if they cant shange that its fine but i do hope that maybe they can replace the colour of the target cirkel.
Im only looking for a flight model that is hypothetically as realistic as possible. Is master modes it? Maybe, I don't know. But the thing to keep in mind is that it can only improve. At least CIG is trying different things.
I don’t have much input on this but based on the few sessions I had with it it’s not as bad, some getting used to and the fights feel abit restrictive with the speeds. Now I haven’t tried the latest update on them, it does not hinder my chill and fly sessions with lofi low fly music so I am not affected
I think that one of the problems is that people look to others and parrot their opinions. I haven't played master modes yet, it makes sense on paper however I'm going to wait until I've had first hand experience with it before I make up my mind about it.
I would suggest trying out arena commander first to get a feel for the flight model and what ship you are flying then take it to squadron battle. I’ve gained much fun experience from just that. Doing the PU can be a little bit of a pain.
I feel like that most people are having a hard time is because it's new and different, having to relearn something as fundamental can feel like a setback, which feels negative. But I do hope we can get countermeasures and markers in nav mode in some shape or form, so you won't get lost or instantly shot down when doing box or cargo missions
I've been playing mostly MM since I've had access in Evo 3.20 and love it. It feels great and solves many problems. High level combat in the current flight model is awful. Effectively using trichording to chase and merge is way harder than I want to put the time in to learn, the high speeds eliminate any possibility for strategic group gameplay, and positional combat only exists if both pilots consent to it. In MM positional combat with 1v1 clone fighters does exist to some degree but it could be better. I haven't had much of a chance to test pvp in 3.23 so I don't know if it has the same kiting problem 3.22 MM has. CIG knows the duels need to get better, and are working on it, but fleet gameplay is amazing.
As primarily an a1 pilot, 1 thing i dont like about MM is that you cant dive bomb at 900m/s anymore. Will just have to figure out a new way to pilot the a1 effectively now i guess.
I personally would have worked with more realistic G force drawbacks and pilot fatigue mechanics to nerf down fighters while still maintaining performance potential, somewhat realistic immersion and the like. Fighters are supposed to do swooping (jousting) attack runs. You can counter it by encouraging cap ship play, mercenaries, and forcing the fight to a turret clump. This is using duct tape and hot glue to fix something that they had the tools to fix anyhow.
Fully agreed. I don't think the tunings in MM are perfect but the design itself is fine. They need to do a lot more to make it feel great but I'd take it 100x any day of the week over Live. It's so funny to me seeing people defend the old flight model as if they haven't spent years whining about unrestricted velocities it this whole time.
A buddy of mine linked this video to me and I subscribed. Finally, someone that sees the potential of not zooming at 1243 m/s and getting group pvp involved in A MMO!!! lol Thank you for not having the whiner mentality and taking it as it is. Much appreciated look forward to more videos.
You usually have extremely sensible takes on things but like you are arguing that things just needed to be tweaked in MMs but that is literally all they had to do with the current flight model. CIG is throwing away a whole flight model because of certain bullshit things that if they worked right in the current flight model would have never been an issue. It honestly feels like they created these problems just as an excuse for us to complain like the EM signature on the hornet and the stupid Gs some ships can pull those things literally could have been corrected and we wouldnt be seeing the egregious abuse of these things that are just bad design. But most of all if they wanted light fighters to not be so powerful they could have simply just -reduce light fighters shields to allow more permanent damage to take place during teamfights -increased the effective range and damage of multicrew ships that could actually punish lightfighters -reduced backstrafe on lightfighters -give turrets percision mode and reduce the range lightfighters can apply damage. AND most of all- add actual objectives instead of ego fighting its not even just the 1v1s the teams fights are just the same but none of that killing matters without us gaining something other than reputation amongst eachother. Idk what it is but it just feels like CIG is allergic to gameplay and are so hell bent on adding mechanics that have no win condition to balance against to see if the changes are actually meaningful. Everyone right now is just concerned with their targets being able to get away or if they themselves can escape and their has to be some type of gameplay loop where playing defensively isn't just running away.
anyone remember chris original "I am a PC game" " Star Citizen will never be on console" master mode is arcade mm is for those who oooo combat is too hard ! i have to practice and learn. master mode is console .
I’ve got 8K hours in SC and have trained with the best and you’re wrong. 3.22 is also arcady and broken. Flying at 1337 full speed back strafing missile spamming doesn’t take a lot of skill. As for realism do you think we’ll actually dogfight in space in real life? Combat PLANES don’t even do that these days. Ever watch the expanse? That’s realistic space combat, firing missile without ever even seeing your opponent. The problem is that’s not SC and Chris has been pushing “Star Wars style dogfighting” for years.
Finally i agree i've been a backer for about 5 years. I have thought pretty much the same as you. Jousting at full speed isnt really fun. Something new to learn would be a nice change. I havent had fun with sc in awhile.
There is positional combat in MM but ppl just a lot of ppl haven’t worked out how to do it so they just moaning because have to relearn how to do things
@Burks Reacts So here is my deep dive. Ill open with this... The change from the flight model after 3.08/3.09 were really bad, i have hated it since then. With MM i accept any major change due to 3.22 being just bad. Now i have limited experience with MM so most of the time when i bring up my thought's people are like "you have no room to talk" but honesty, i dont need 100 hours in MM to understand it's. With MM we now have multiple modes we have to choose to be in during different activities, this mixes in having to put more thought into what you do. For example... MM promates cooperative play... If me and the boys try to pirate a ship said ship could attempt to flee with increased speed vs us being slow. But he risks possibility of massive damage. In turn if he swaps to combat to bring up his shields now he is super tanky but being solo in a trade ship this would get him killed. So next tike he flies with an escort therfore promoting a coopertive play style. Overall i miss the high octane high speed combat, boom and zoom sucked but itnwas a viable tactic. Then in CIGs attempt to brijg the fight closer just made everything worse. So with MM we now have slowboat ships that actually become highely maneuverable and dangerous. We swap between different modes and also not having shields online allows armor to be used in its roll, this also makes EMPs more viable as well as the changes to tackle with a QED forcing you to be put on the defensive. Idk... all in all i am down with change
@berksReacts If in real life you feel you would build space ships that use's MM, or limited by MM then so be it. I'd build ships that revolves around the most important component, the pilot not some AI interface designed to level the playing field. SC is now so far off the grid it's no longer a skilled experience but a numbers game, we'd be as well just rolling a dice.
MM is clearly meant to make multicrew and squdron battles viable rather than a series of 1v1s. Thats great, i want to see the HH useful beyond larping. If MM comes in and the HH continues to be a pretty hangar decoration, throw it out. In terms of non-combat ships it seems clear their inclusion is a bit of an afterthought. On paper it seems that 3.23 is going to be an incredibly rough patch for them. Once they actually start putting work into how non-combat ships fly itll be interesting to see how its accepted
Anymore, I put the complaints about Master Modes into a few categories. 1). People that don't play SC creating ragebait complaints because the drama makes them feel validated. 2). Sweatlords alpha-splaining to everyone else because they believe their opinion is more valuable than anyone that disagrees with them. Keep in mind, SC is still in development and things will be adjusted in future patches. CIG has even said they put things in the game to see if we think it is as bad as they do.
They said precision mode, which isn't anything to do with Master Modes, and then they said "no skill", which they weren't able to articulate for reasons.... basically, a lot of noise they picked up off of Reddit/Spectrum. The skill thing is really ridiculous because engineering and armour and flight control surfaces are all coming in, and there is zero possibility of a five-minute newbie being able to out-perform someone with 1,000 hours in any situation when those added systems are live.
its only 1 thing that needs to be changed asap is the targeting UI its like 10000000000000000000000000000000000 red markers on the screen idk who tf to shoot at lol I mean I can adjust the others but this gotta go
I don't get the MM haters as well. I am having lots of fun! Is it perfect: No? But it's the first iteration and it DELIVERS I was able to simply DODGE rockets in NAV mode, they've got a hard time keeping up with at 1100m/s ship that maneuvres all the time.
Spectrum is full of mostly useless hyperbole there's some good ideas and feedback, but so many of these people are just living inside some version of SC in their own head
Hate it. Put in about six hours and its like going backwards. I feel stuck to whoever I engage or engages me. Weird "trapped in a bubble" feel that is almost reminiscent of a stand up arcade game. Just cant get into it. If this is what we see in the PU its going to take alot to entice me to even bother with PVP in the future. Each to their own, but I think there were ways to do this that didnt involve torching the present flight model entirely.
All of the bad points you mentioned about 3.22 flight model are all combat. For none combat players, all MM does is add unnecessary button presses and waiting times every time we quantum.
if you're in a solo ship though it literally takes a second or two of wait time, also i've found I get places faster, because I can just cut back to scm mode when I get close to something and cut speed for free lmao (still my only complaint with the model)
There’s a spool up for QT in 3.22 right now though? Also I find nav mode really nice, no more respooling! Once your in, you can do 10 jumps in a row no problem. The way some of the non-combat ships fly is my main issue.
obviously you did not play the Arena before the 2.0, and missed the flight model that was dicarded in 2017. That period was the most utter shit flight model with "modes". Manual transmission in space. Restrictions without any sane reason. Like the landing tunnels they wanted to put in game. Always more restrictions to avoid dealing with problems good way, which is not the easy way usually.
There’s restrictions right now, they’re just higher outside of SCM in 3.22. Both models are “arcadey” and neither represent real life IMO. If you don’t like the limits of MM, I understand, but I would take master modes any day over what is high speed, no skill missile spam, running away meta. You end the fight 150K away from where it started. It’s horrid. The old flight model was (and cruise) was removed because Chris at the time wanted a seamless transition from SCM to QT he mentioned on a pillar talk a few years back. Ramp in inputs, and slower SCM speeds have been at the forefront of PvP discussion from Shadow Moses, AVS, Black Fleet, Liberty Reapers and more. Org fights at the moment at the top level is just nobody dying for an hour while everyone runs away at full speed. Why? Because the game lets you in the flight model. Saying nobody misses it just isn’t true.
The reason it's bad for me is the fact that we are losing freedom. The SCM mode and NAV mode just feels like a gimmick they put in for ballance. I thought this was a space Sim, not an arcade game...
People act like this first iteration that they publicly test (ignoring the experimental arena commander mode) is the definitive version for whatever reason. Of course it still requries quiet a bit of tweaking, even CIG said that from the start. Most ships still need their individual flightmodels tweaked and industrial especially need a balancing pass. People hate it without giving it a chance either because they are scared of such a radical change (understandable to a degree) or because they are sweaty 24/7 1v1 pvp arena commander nerds that see their stupid light fighter meta in danger. Its basically the 2.x to 3.x flight model change situation all over again where people proclaimed the end of star citizen and that they ruined it all.
Honestly really been loving master modes and all the cool quirks it brings and it’s made catching targets when flying the mantis fun again. It’s no longer just fly at target, drop bubble, win it’s switch to travel mode, chase the target, get ahead of the targets position, drop back to scm, deploy bubble, try to adjust for target manoeuvring, catch target. In all honesty the master modes changes is good for PvE players it creates counter play to QD damps you can avoid them as the interdictor has to drop back to scm to be able to deploy.
Yeah I mean, everyone's got their opinions and experiences, but I like it. I also played back when we had a similar thing with the 3 modes, though, so maybe I'm biased in that way? Love how Berks calls out the first dude in Spectrum for his tone and stupid platitudes lol. Honestly it just feels like the latest uproar from probably a fractional part of the playerbase that just has to be angry about something every 6 months. There's my platitude. Seriously, all I see is people going into Twitch chat and trying to drum up support for all this complaining, or seeing YT videos that are 90% wastes of time just barking about it. Maybe if there was more constructive feedback I'd not feel so annoyed, but the vast majority is just complaining. Yeah, it's different. It feels fundamentally different. But it doesn't feel BAD to me, and thinking forward, I can see it becoming way better for the game than whatever they could message the current combat into. Gotta think about the big picture. Point out individual flaws, sure (saw some in chat) - but making a big hoot about how the whole thing is going to break the game is just exhausting. The new flight model seems to be a much better *foundation* - that's what matters. And we can move forward from that. We've been trying to move forward with the last flight model for over half a decade, and it's just not happening. Gotta try something new.
I tried master modes and honestly i was surprised how FUN it was. I heard so much negativity from the community about it but when i tried it myself i was like, why does it feel like I'm ACTUALLY flying a spaceship for once? lol
Greetings from Hawaii 👍 given As a RUclips viewer, I appreciate your views and candid points always. And I have learned to stay off spectrum. That article got 500 uploads because 499 of them are whiners who complained about anything to get attention.. Big man Thank you for sharing 🪐
People who mastered the OLD Flight Model are crying the most as they need to Relearn to fight n fly again. They don't like being just like everyone else again.
That's not the problem. MM is the same boring assed flight model we've had in every ARCADE space combat game for 30 years... definitely no longer worthy of being called a simulation
@@nuanil it was never a 'simulation' ... it's a game and the developers decide how it is. You can take it or leave it, but whining about having them take your toys away is just lame.
@@Glathgrundel it was. We were promised newtonian DCS in space, including every thruster individually modeled and affected by damage. A proper PC game that could never be played on a console due to the depth of gameplay and number of individual control inputs.
@albertom Says the guy lashing out because he got his way with MM..Dude.. you're literally being a hypocrite, and therefore you're opinion is void. There's people on both sides of the MM debate. Most of us here are acknowledging that fact and having a debate. You're the guy Berks is talking about complaining with no citing of fact or constructive opinion. Just because people disagree, doesn't mean they're your target of self righteousness.
@glath Another player hurling insults with no constructive information and waving a MM flag...is this really the biased opinions we want our game to strive for? Look, this isn't your platform to sjw because you feel you're on a winning side. Some of us REALLY love this game and would like it to turn out the best for ALL, while maintaining that it's tough for CIG to please everyone.. I no way am I biased to AV1 here, although I don't think he's wrong about MM, but.. as an example.. That means PVP/PVE/AC players like AV1/Berks /Virgil/Voidy/Cozy (love the Cozy styles) etc etc.. who may or may not take a lot of grief, but have been playing since the inception, MAY just have a point? Some of us are trying to debate to get it all to the surface. Being a part of the problem is not being part of the solution. Maybe try to make your comment worth it
The main reason for the hate is it shifts the meta from the light fighter jousting fighting to have to put thought into targeting and planning out a fight
1 practical issue is being a hauler who needs to traverse a distance in atmo towards a destination. The hauler now needs to choose between having markers or shields, but never both. - just a thought
This is my primary gripe with the system as it is now. We need some sort of navigation symbology available outside of quantum modes.
This has already been a problem for ships without quantum drives for a long time. We need a persistent level of navigation data for all modes.
@@sheetpostmodernist398yeah trying to get a Argo mpuv from port tressler to microtech for a laugh proved practically impossible before they put that light ring around them. It would be good if this was considered even if it was only visible when pointing in the general vicinity of it and just to the a set waypoint and not on everything
That problem is going to vanish the moment they enable us to put markers on the map like we can for the on foot maps. It's not in alredy because they are still working on it.
I'm not gonna say that the new systems are perfect, but ppl can't be shitting on everityng just because they can't see the full picture wile still missing some pieces of the puzle. It's annoing not having markers wile you fly? Yes. Will it be always like that? No.
Actually really good feedback that I totally share! Markers, UI, and even the new star map really do need even more QoL. We gotta think of this is hard for us, new players will get extremely confused.
do you mean the Quantum markers when in NAV mode? Theyve added FLT operator mode in NAV master mode that you access via MMB, which removes quantum markers. Theyre also talking about making it the default operator mode when switching to NAV mode.
Its just ridiculous that a ship manufacture would sell a ship that doesn't have enough power to have shields when in nav mode. Not being able to regen sure that's a balance / game move but no shields is nonsensical for in game law. Add to that no counter measures in nav and the massive lag to switch between mods is a punish.
They need to decouple it from the markers somehow so I can still see my markers when I'm in regular flight mode.
if you hit middle mouse button, it switches modes to FLT or SCAN, (or Missile/scan in SCM). when in FLT while in nav mode you dont have the QT markers.
They already did, it's calleed NAV Flight mode, and you can fly without seeing the nav markers.
There are a lot of people who do not remember the change from 2.X flight modes to the 3.X flight model. Everyone was up in arms. Initially I was one of them, 2.63 was a really great flight model and was really fun. 3.0 was terrible by all measures, but it evolved and improved. I still find 2.63 to be better than 3.22, but so many people don't know any different. The fact that Master Modes is so fun now, I can only imagine how much better it will get as it evolves. People always resist change.
Out of curiosity, since I wasn't around to see for myself, is there anything in particular that you miss about the 2.63 flight model?
@@szakattkorts If you want a history of the flight model changes that occurred, you might like "Star Citizen: Fighters Combat" by KREION
@@szakattkorts From what I remember the old old flight model felt a little like mastermodes, because you had SCM and you could use boost to get above the max SCM speed. I'm pretty sure you could also switch to a different mode like the new NAV mode to fly at around 1000m/s instead of old SCM's limit of 200-300m/s.
MM is fun for noobs sorry to say it. combat died after 2.x and the new and improved fm took away throttle game play and gave us a car speeder instead, complete with speed limiter and cruse controle, john crew loves when players are sad about ships and yoki was a sound guy before getting moved to the flight model, and its been down hill ever since, MM is made for noobs by noobs. not only that, CIG is pissing on the original backers with such a lame flight model, MM will split the fan base in two, briliant tactic worked great for disney starwares, and the more rainbow flags and purple haired devs you see at CIG the more you know, they are gona make it lame and ...
CR's not gonna date you dude
You want actual arguments? Here you go:
Master mode itself (the switching) is not the major source of complaint. It's everything that happens below 600 m/s, including the decision to split SCM into two: SCM speed and boosted SCM speed. Basically we have 3 modes (4 if you want to include landing gear down).
For flight below 600 m/s ("SCM mode") here are the issues:
Removing tri-cording has profound effects on flight. The glaring obvious mistake in the removal of tri-cording, is that the ship loses maneuverability just by flying forward.
If the game limits the total velocity-vector to maximum forward acceleration of the ship, you can't strafe to the sides while flying forward. This is why boosting still "feels off" and on rails.
Because you can't strafe to the sides while pushing forward, you are at a disadvantage vs. someone just drifting, as they can freely apply maximum strafes in all directions and be more evasive.
*So the game punishes the active player for flying forward. And rewards the passive player.*
The correct way to handle tri-cording, is to account for it in ship tuning and balancing, so it can be in the game without disturbing the intended balance of the ships. Tri-cording has always been a part of the game, but did not become meta since 3.14 flight model tuning.
In 3.10, the benefit of tri-cording was only 17 % vs. a whooping 35 % in 3.14. In 3.10, tri-cording was never an issue or necessary to use in the vast majority of combat. You will not find a single Spectrum post from 2021 where people complained about tri-cording.
Hence, my recommendation would be to lower strafe G for a light fighter archetype to maximum 8 G. Perhaps it would be even better with 6 G and leave strafes unaffected by boost.
To prevent the flight model to feel "slidy" or "drifting without intent", let the players have more retro thrust, so it's easier to stop the momentum of a ship. In 3.10 a Gladius had 6G unboosted retro and 12G with boost.
Since then we nerfed retro several times in the hope it would solve backstrafing. But the truth is, that the strong lateral strafes are much more to blame for backstrafing, as it's just a matter of sliding out of the circle with centrifugal force assisted with lateral strafes.
And really pure backpedaling should be solved through G-forces.
Get rid of space-drag boost. It serves no purpose and does not fulfill the design intention ("encouraging to close the gap"). In fact, it *punishes* the pusher by having them spend a valuable resource (boost) on top of the above designflaw of removing tri-cording.
One unified SCM/Boost space is the way to go. What the top speed should be is subject to testing. But between 400 and 600 m/s is reasonable range for testing.
And I actually agree with you! But I don’t think that means throw the whole model out. Yogi and the team at least said aware the boost pattern they’ve set up isn’t achieving what it’s suppose to.
Do I miss tricording, and I do agree “backstrafing” is usually a result of bi-cording (backward and horizontal) which happens in 3.22 horribly too. I have a video on my main channel of me fighting another push pilot named Delta, and when you push eachother in 3.22 it works AMAZING. Problem is no one wants to push!
I think making the boost pattern Asymectic (heavy vertical) could also help while doing what you suggested turning lateral strafes down.
This is a problem that only really effects 1v1 mirror builds imo, and while I’d love to see it fixed 100% am sticking to my guns that fleet combat matters more.
I disagree but this is a great argument
@@BerksReacts No, they don't need to throw nav modes and associated systems away. Most of us have been begging for lower speeds for years (the most often mentioned speed people requested was 600 m/s or cutting the speeds in half).
Even if I think nav-mode could have been solved more elegantly (Hunternet Starfighter way of reducing acceleration the faster you go), I don't have much problems with a hard division. Although hard speed walls always cause a problems. E.g. locking players in their relative positions at max speed (We even see that problem in SCM in MM with 220 m/s).
But everything they did below nav mode needs to be scrapped. They took the worst part of 3.14 (live), which is the super high strafes, and made it worse by limiting tri-cording instead of addressing the core issue. Then they added space-drag on top, which serves no purpose other than making players feel like they are stuck in mud (it's not helping the pusher as intended, on the contrary).
I know the counter argument will be: If we remove drag/boost everyone is just going to be flying 600 m/s. Well, maybe topspeed without space-drag should only be 400, or 450, etc. People are going these speeds with boost anyway!! That's why the Bucc is the most popular ship.
Lastly, 1v1 is a fundamental part of the game. Not only are most encounters in the PU small groups or 1v1. But even a fleet battle will include several 1v1s inside the context of the entire battle.
Squadrons battle is in no way representative for the PU. And you're having fun because the opponent can keep coming back and the battle continues. But in the PU after you focus fire all the opponents and the battle is over in 45 seconds, you're going to be bored - even if you're the winning. Sqadrons battle is essentially only 3rd partying, there is no real fighting.
And a lot of combat will never take place. "Ah we are only 2v5, this is a fight we cannot take".
It's going to be so boring, and outside ganking is going to kill combat in the PU. Wait and see.
@@BerksReactsI greatly enjoy hearing different opinions about MM. I tried the AC MM test once and I personally didn't like it. I will follow up with the fact that I am NOT a combat pilot. I skimmed AvengerOne's pilot course mostly so I could survive encounters with pirates.
AvengerOne's view of MM is constructively negative. As he is a respected name amongst the combat community I have been aligning with his views. Hearing your side has brigthened my look on MM. As long as they don't touch the health pool on the Retaliator or nerf the manuevering of the Hercules or Spirits I will be a happy camper.
@@scdude9509 hunternet is an amazing flight model, no questions from me BUT even it’s issues. I’m not sure where it stands, but they were having serious issues with wiggling last I played, just goes to show lots of these problems are hard to tackle. Go one way too much? Bad. Bring it back to much? Bad again. I don’t envy CIG for having to do that with 150 ships.
I think it’s also agree 1v1’s are apart but they’ve been the priority for 8 years. And in a MMO (what CIG is aiming for), multicrew should be the priority.
The other side of 2v5 being goofy in master modes is that it’s dumb in can survive 30 mins with 20 enemies on you in 3.22 flying full speed. I agree it will limit some combat, but it’s a limit that makes way more sense. Why should a smaller group have an advantage over a bigger one?
The people complaining either haven't had enough time with it, or they're pissed they can't solo a hammerhead in a Gladius anymore
Its a lot more involved than that dude.
I agree light fighters were overpowered.
But you cant dodge fire now even in the most nimble ships.
Whats the point if your flying no longer matters?
We already did this in 2017 and 2018
It sucked then and it sucks now.
All the bored pvp players are just going to go hunt the rest of the server now because dogfighting has been nerfed out of the game.
Que all the pvp vs griefing videos.
They will change it back in 2 years, just like before.
Dumbing down the flight model is never good.
You will see.
@@rybuds47 Sounds like we just need more tuning on weapon projectile speeds?
100% agree. or they're solo pve players who wanna do millions trade run without any risk in MMO game.
@@rybuds47 Problem is you were not dodging fire you were taking advantage of the broken targeting system by doing a corkscrew which requires no skill at all.
Speeds were also to high for the G-forces you are pulling, 9 G's will kill a person and fighters are pulling well over 20 which is just ridiculously stupid.
Nice strawman.
I think countermeasures should be available in non-combat modes though
Didn't we have master modes several years ago? I remember having to switch to SCM and two other modes depending on how I'm looking to fly.
You didn't switch. From what I heard, The original was a forced Hover mode whenever you get below a certain altitude.
Yup we absolutely did, it was called cruise mode and the OG pilots who had it begged for it back for YEARS along with lower SCM speeds.
@@BerksReacts it was removed because most players hated it. And i did not see anyone who wanted that back.
@@mukuk2005I did
@@ZaneDragonBorn No we had master modes years ago, that is where SCM comes from, SCM= Space Combat Mode. And when you went into what is now travel mode you could barely turn your ship due to G-forces.
The fights look good because you can actually see stuff and it´s not just zooming by.
There are some issues, it kinda feels like a dps race right now and so on, but those issues can be resolved.
I´m certainly having fun right now, much more as with the old system. That´s for sure.
Master modes is focused on either dogfighting, or cruising. There's a 3rd aspect to this game, which is running away from a fight, or rather, fighting your way out of a fight. With this change (and I'm talking about the waiting times between mode switching and loss of shields and weapons in NAV), running away is far more punishing or near impossible. Which kind of forces you to stay and fight, or just give up.
And remember, a lot of people don't want the PvP aspect of the game. They acknowledge it exists, but at least they had a way to run from it (though unbalance in my opinion prior to 3.23). Now, it feels they lost that. Either stay and fight, or pretty much risk being blown out of the sky within the time it takes you to change modes and reach full speed.
What OOO-62 wrote is so true, this is exactly my experience with Mm.
It’s hard to take anyone seriously who opens their feedback up with an insult that isn’t even fair. CIG is adjusting values of over 150 ships, oh course a few of them will feel wack at first and get better as they move one. Are there concerns with MM? 100%. I address a lot of them if you watch the video, CIG is also aware of a lot of them. But some of the claims are so far exaggerated it comes across that the only thing people really don’t like is change.
@@BerksReacts but then again, 000-62 is so right, but that is the trend now a days, get offended when presented logic and facts.. MM is a shit show, every thing john crew and yoki have made is sadly just subpar with they stuff it replaced, and over they years they have nerfed dummed down every thing, and lets not get starded on the UI made for console.. once MM hits live for the masses they are gonna have a shit storm. MM goes agenst so much of the original pitch for SC.. thats gonna piss off there oldest fans, fans like me.. that worked out great for disney starwars did it not?
john crew sounds like he hates spaceships and gloate when players complain about the nerfs, and yoki was a sound guy at cig before getting moved to the flight team.. the old FM was made by john pritchett with menny space sims under his belt.. tells alot right there
@BerksReacts it's not the ship tuning that is the problem. The problem is that NAV mode is designed to make easy targets of industrial players.
@@BerksReacts The main problem right now is the "trapping mechanism" in not combat ship and many cooldowns while travel. Right now I feel only combat focus gameplay get benfits on the MM and that is not i do daily.
@@BerksReacts I have the impression that you don't understand or don't want to understand what we mean, it's not about the ship configuration, it's about the fun of tricording, flying at high speeds, freedom from modes, a great flight model that players love. Master mode is a model taken straight from Star Wars Squadron or War Plane (more arcade). Instead of fixing the network code, they slow down flight speeds, instead of teaching players how to fly and merge in combat, they change the system. This is not the direction we want and why the post has so many likes
Berks I appreciate your opinion even above my own in all matters flight. I am average at best and just can't find something I like about master modes and will admit my personal 3.23 experience was bad with the patch was bad in a whole. Issues with MM for me.
1 Combat feels like a numbers game.
2 Switching modes constantly feels like it interrupts too much of the gameplay.
3 Personal gripe with the landing gear speed limitation.
4 Keeping nose on target is too easy.
5 I have concerns when AI is functional, and you get pulled out of quantum and cig spawns their favorite ship the hammerhead. Personally, I think you are dead before you get your shields up or are able to spool up to get away in most ships.
6 Positioning on the rear of a target is nearly impossible.
7 Hit and run tactics seems like the dominant strategy (this was in AC 3.22)
We will see how it goes in the PU, personally I think this format is going to lead to a lot more piracy and combat and the current state of MM is going to make me skip 3.23 and probably just hit the event patch to check what is new. I might be wrong, but my feeling is that you definitely don't want to be caught flying solo in anything.
I haven't tried master modes yet, but have a question. What's to stop someone from just one-shoting you when you come out of quantum at an OM? Your shields are down and without shields you are just a sitting duck. Is this the case or am I misunderstanding how the system works? The C2 for example takes FOREVER to get shields up in live. You would never be able to get shields up in time even if you turned on SCM right after you got out of Quantum.
What’s stopping them is you’re in NAV mode, and they aren’t. You should fly away 100%, and as far ask I can tell you totally can in 95% of the cases (excluding if they have a mantis)
Also it’s important to note that shield recovery for NAV to SCM is INSANELY fast compared to if you just turn them on and off. Maybe 3 seconds totally for a big ship like the C2. That being said just away.
I think the mantis will have an interesting place, but in 3.22 it’s also impossible to escape one unless you can manage to take it out.
@@BerksReacts thanks for letting me know about the recharge rates. Like I said, I haven't tried Master Modes so I was genuinely curious as to how that would work. If it only that's 3 seconds, then that is awesome and it is a non issue. But I really was curious.
You'll see when I'm awaiting you with my Ion :P
@@surject that's ok, I hear they are adding a ban report feature. :P
Nothing
While I wouldn't expect an amazing flight performance from a mining ship that looked like it'd have trouble avoiding the rocks it was mining.
It does feel a bit like they wanted to make a big change but without all the pieces to make it work. Of course there's tuning to do no matter what and maybe they just needed to get something functionally in game to build upon.
The industry ships got nerfed big time, I DONT think it will stay this way. The prospector feels completely out of place.
Agreed, and should be updated with a balance change along with the C1 and a few others.
@@BerksReacts I think one of the issues CIG has with almost all of their flight models is that it is almost impossible to base a flight model on how something should feel. Ships often don't feel like the massive things they are because the thrust output of the vehicles makes them more agile than their mass should allow. So if a change comes in that makes ships feel massive and gives them inertia, then people complain because the ships don't feel good anymore. It is a no win situation for CIG.
Just wait until it's open to all backers and the griefers get their hands on it.
I think once they have tuned every ship to where it needs to be, MM will be good and people will get used to it. MM is pretty much here to stay so best thing we can do is just give feedback, rather than to argue against having MM.
Everyone needs to stop expecting a knee-jerk fix. Smart way to balance is making small adjustments to fine tune the model. This is a new flight model give it time to be adjusted ship by ship.
Most of MM is good. My biggest issue is that they changed cruise control rendering a HOTAS throttle basically useless now. They also broke how coupled/decoupled flight works. Precision flight for landing and takeoff is much more difficult as the directional thrusters no longer keep you from drifting.
That and the landing gear slowing you down! Agreed and all this is good feedback 100%
I was wondering about CC as well
TBH Trim does the same thing as cruise control, and actually works a bit better when used right
only thing i would probly have issue with is finding button on hotas to swap modes but if they would get it passivly trigger like as some say power management max power to engines spools up nav mode. so on
It's literally no different than turning on your quantum drive. You don't have a button to enter quantum mode in the current live build?
CIG took away the ability to evade shots. This results in aim duels and DPS races.
This is only partially true and I feel like it’s being a bit exaggerated on the account that you would get hit less doing the EXACT same maneuver because in 3.22 you can do it at max speed. Along with this, people have become way way too dependent on retrothrust. It is so incredible rare to run into another push pilot in the PU.
People say that there’s no positional combat in 3.23, but is there any in 3.22 if the pilot knows how to back up? Nope. It was especially bad with ships that could fly faster than others aka the F8C.
1v1 in mirror builds are the only ones who struggle with this problem in MM, and CIG is actively trying to fix it.
My beef with MM is how slow it is because its boring. The ones that like it are the ones that cant think fast enough to enjoy the competition of speed! AS for liking or disliking it I am holding my thoughts for now and need to put at least 60 hours into playing it before I can honestly have an opinion. Not fond of the additional modes. Like WTF, why do we need all these flight modes?
@kevin
YES. Why do we need sooooo much convoluted flight mode practices?
I mean there’s no maneuverable flight in the combat for master modes. It makes flight so slow, I can’t even do any cinematic flight.
That is a REAL reason. It’s not hard to understand. I cannot dodge any missiles in which flares isn’t enough for with this model. And now, quantum dampener in 3.23 forces ships out of nav mode to SCM fight mode only.
Master modes specifically will be forcing pvp combat with 3.23 release.
This is coming from someone who’s a miner, cargo runner, and salvager. I’ve fought, dodged, ran from, and squared off from mongrel squad and griefernet plenty of times. Not new to combat to hold my own either.
Yeah I don't see a problem with a mining ship not being the fastest tbh. It's supposed to efficient, not fast right?
the only issue I have really is the during combat the disengage from a battle and boost feels like it only welps toward turning only and not assisting very well with dodging. Also the esp pip issue where the pip is even more out of control which idk if thats intended or a bug but its awful. Lastly the it looks like they are working on the spray and pray but that was ridiculous were you where just consistently getting hit from like over 3k away. Once they do something about these 3 it would become fun for me.
I’m excited for MM in the PU. Fights are just more enjoyable and fkying in general is good.
PU MM I was kinda skeptical. Once I figured out MM addition keys and got 'em bind. It's growing on me. I do think SCM speed does need a small increase 285-320. Seems to slow and boring flying toward a station at 215. As for MM controversy, it was my understanding that this is not a set in stone.
Why would you fly toward a station in SCM?
@@Billy-bc8pk I will answer your question with a question: why would you travel somewhere unprepared? Past experience of being attacked while flying in to land.
@@SolusPicaroon If anyone attacks you at a station at SCM speeds, they will be flattened in seconds before they can do anything with the new turrets. And before you say "The turrets don't work!" you're right, in live they do not work due to combat speeds being 1,000 m/s+. At 200 m/s, the people who attack people at stations are basically sitting ducks. So if you want to fly into a station at 200 m/s, you can, but you're only inconveniencing yourself.
@Billy
I think that's kind of the point.. it's so confusing and clunk that nobody really knows how to fly anymore without doing it in a textbook boring way in MM..
Thank you for this video and bringing the argument forward. I feel that MM slows everything down and I don't have a lot of maneuverability. (By design). But it isn't anything can't be tweaked.
I think we should have even more realism in the flight model. Let's start having characters stroke out when they pull more than 9G's for a few seconds then we'll have a "realistic" flight model. Seriously though, I think with further tweaks and adjustments MM is a strong basis for the flight model SC needs.
Bingo. We've had systems to limit flight speed forever. They just need to leverage G-forces on the pilots.
Meh 🤷🏻♂️
Small potatoes compared to the rest of the current issues imo..I also hate that my guy is always g forcing out. Just adds unnecessary convolutedness imo
Oh god I hope they don't meet everyone in the middle, that would flat soda. A compromised flight system would truly never please anyone.
my biggest problem with master modes is the break with physics. Especially the fact that you slow down again after boosting in space. Nothing slows you down in a vacuum! SC was announced as a space sim. My suggestion: Boost accelerates you faster, but doesn't give you a higher maximum speed.
The 3.22 model is also extremely Arcady. While I’m not attached to the speed increase with boost, I think saying it doesn’t line up reality doesn’t really fit SC. The main bad guy is S42 is space sharks, we fly crab ships made by tree people. CIG has said “Space Sim” but what they meant was “SciFi Sim” on the fact alone if it was realistic you’d be shooting missiles from thousands of Kilometers away without ever seeing your target. Chris as wanted Starwars style combat forever and I think this gets us closer.
I’m not disagreeing with your point, I just think realism ≠ SC!
I very much hope that isn't the case in decoupled mode, else I'm utterly disappointed. Same with landing, I want to land decoupled at high speed and hitting space break at the last moment after my 180 for supersmooth and awesome looking landing. I dislike artificial limits a lot - in any game.
@@BerksReacts think about Battlestar Galactica Fighters. It is close combat but witth 6 degree of freedom and not like WWII Dogfights. I think CIG can bring both worlds together. Close Combat and somehow near real physics, at least with a believable physics 🙂
@zerosense
Exactly.. this is my main issue. Loss of what is intertia
@berks
SW flight is not remotely real and totally sci fi sim.. I love the idea of Sci Fi sim.. I don't want a space sim that's too realistic.. like being on set in a movie.. no magic at all.
I can agree with you on a lot...but the feeling of decoupled "intertia", in space, real or sci fi, sure doesn't feel "arcadey" .. Fighting my ship for supremacy and losing the "feeling" of inertia in MM, very much does.
I'm not much of a racer, but racing in master modes is amongst the most boring things I've done in my life. It just lacks some excitement
They need to make SCM mode function the way the current flight model does, and then make Nav mode WAY faster. SCM mode is WAY too slow for me personally.
The problem is that it negates throttle flight. This space sim (originally billed as a sim) is throwing out the use/skill of HOTAS. Great if it's good for M&K as well as HOSAS, but not so great that it ruins throttle skill
We're new to SC (2 weeks) but MM feels more like elite-dangerous to us (more realistic, more difficult) and 3.22 feels more like no man's sky. We're fine with the change, but we're also not having to un-learn years of muscle memory. Lower overall speeds and having to shut down your shield to go fast is a big change, I can see why people are afraid of it. They'll get used to it.
100% agree with you Berks. Been in the community since 2013 and I've seen this time and time again.
You and me both, sister.
100% with you. Master Modes are much more fun flying around. And i am happy that this is going to change for Star Citizen.
MM squishes the skill ceiling. Bad players love it because now they can do better. Great players hate it because they are riding the Ceiling knowing they are being held back.
Mastermodes sucks because they force you to use scm mode in Racing now. If they revert that change I have no problem with it. The high speed is one of the thing that made racing unique in SC.
Genuine question, why can’t you race in NAV mode? Because of the CAP? You would have limited boost?
Have not messed with racing enough in MM.
Racing needs it's own mode I think. Or, racing ships should just have a different SCM, but in that scenario they would likely need to remove the ability to have weapons.
I don't know anything about racing BUT maybe they should solve the racing things with the specialized racing ships with their own specifities.
I agree, sounds like they just need a racing mode. Something that enables systems only necessary for racing.
@@BerksReacts I am not in testing myself but I heard you are forced into SCM mode or need to be in scm mode in order to race. They already talked about adjusting the tracks to the slower speeds.
"We've been asking for Daymar-style combat for years and we finally got it!"
Daymar combat is (light) atmospheric combat. I NEVER wanted atmospheric combat in space. I was always happy that people who preferred that plane-like combat could go fight in atmo to have it, but I loved having a space-like experience in space.
"The skill ceiling is not gone, it's just changed."
The skill of knowing when to enter/exit combat is important, but I don't play a flight sim because I love being good at choosing when to fight or run away... I love playing flight sims because I love being good at flying. I want to be able to dodge incoming fire while spiraling around enemies and obstacles, but most of that is gone in MM (RIP racing players).
Obviously speeds had to come down, but a full SEVEN years ago we had Cruise Mode doing that for us (and it could have been iterated on). Obviously tiny ships shouldn't kill big ships, but soon ship armor will be handling that for us. They didn't have to change SO MANY things about flying with Master Modes in order to fix the issues of 3.22 flight.
I didn’t like it at first but I really didn’t notice a difference once actually using it. The only thing I dislike right now is that quantum is the default mode for nav mode, haven’t figured out how to change it yet so I can use the flip down trigger on my flight stick for it
Middle mouse button switches between Quantum/Flight/Scanning modes when in NAV.
Switching Operator modes when you´re using sticks or other control setups.
I agree with you Berks. From all I've seen and the bit I've played. MM has been way more fun than combat in the UI, when I got to play it in AC it was a blast, very excited to see how it plays in 3.23 to get a final opinion. But so far, all the complaints I've seen are minor issues that can be worked out over time; with the overall model being just fine.
Thank You Berks. It's refreshing to see someone thinking with their head and express an opinion that isn't just the current "fashion" of the moment. It's nice to see someone actually back their statements with facts and logics.
To summarize: Thank you.
I'm not sure how i feel about the decoupled mode and the changes there. You basically always fly in vector hold mode, i would like for them to have kept both decoupled modes so you can do a gravity drop. And currently the landing gear speed cap is driving me a bit nuts. But hop they will adjust it
@mrghost
Yes. Agree
You can turn off both in settings
@@zander3158 The gravity ting eventually got i key bind sins my first message. The landing gear speed cap I haven't found. What's it called? Think I found it. Thanks, the Auto Pressision mode. Only found keybinds, no settings for default
lol I love the way people give you the reason they don’t like it and you say “give me a real reason”. Hit sync is not being helped by MM, that’s server improvement, and yes exiting combat is an issue as you try to leave, your shields go down and now you have an interceptor and/or missiles up your thrusters and then you’re done.
My only issue is the time it takes to switch between scm and nav. If they would have fixed the bugs where you have to reset your quantum drive at multiple stops on a route it wouldn't be so bad.
Speeds of switching depend on the ship, the quantum drive size and the grade.
My concern is basically no shields in NAV mode. Not only are you more vulnerable coming out of quantum, it will be hard to get out of combat if you don't want to fight. If you come out of quantum, by being interdicted, or ambushed, your shields are down, which should be your first line of defense. Now you must switch to SCM mode to defend yourself but it takes a while to get those shields up. You can try and run, but those missiles go fast.
Also with no shields, looking at non combat scenarios, are we expected to switch from NAV to SCM every time a star does a solar flare? I know we can hide and we get warnings, but that just seems tedious to have to constantly switch between the modes. And there will be space debris in space, it doesn't make any sense to me personally to not have shields on your ship while exploring in a space game, it just doesn't. Having shields on in NAV mode is what I really feel is needed, that's basically it. Other than that I have no complains. If anything, make shields maybe be at 50% capacity in NAV mode to at least have some form of defense maybe.
Shields are pooled. It does not take a while to get the shields up, it happens rather quickly.
Also, it doesn't matter if your shields are up during solar flares, your whole ship still loses power. And there is no space debris in Star Citizen that is affected by shields.
In the current 3.22, if you get quantum interdicted by a group you cannot get away and if you are in an industrial ship you have no way of winning. Point blank.
RUclips loves to block my comments. In any case, what I was saying is that Master Modes is a missed opportunity. CIG doesn't have to get rid of MM. They could just shift mode switch out to the extremes of power management (100% engines) and let players choose whether they want to focus on more speed, more weapons, more defense and let most everything happen in SCM. Want more speed? Focus your power to engines, but you're sacrificing weapons and shield defense to a corresponding degree.
This was my first idea for caps forever ago, I was told briefly by a dev back in 3.14 “we tested it internally and it didn’t work out” not sure that means it wouldn’t work just CIG seems not to think so.
I for one wouldn’t mind what you’re saying at all.
@@BerksReacts What do you think of the idea of each mode having their own capacitor values? That way each mode could be made more flexible while still having restrictions.
So in SCM you could increase power to engines to go faster as the cost of weapons and shields.
In Nav you could increase power to shields at the expense of engines so you're not as vulnerable.
But in the end it's player choice.
I used to think that but I've got two worries with them tying it to Master Modes. 1. I don't think velocity caps should be another function of thruster assignment. It's better to balance those separately. 2. To balance it so you can't just instantly switch between systems and keep running, recharging shields etc they'd need more cooldowns and delays which then ends up being not entirely different to what they have no anyway. Capacitor management is already too micromanagy so honestly I don't think it's the right direction to offload even more functionality to it.
@@Fuar11 I would go even further ... if you run a ship with NO GUNS at all, you get a shield buff.
Unequip them at the LZ and your HP goes up by 10% (for example).
You decide from the get-go that you're playing defensively.
Alternately, you could unequip all shields and get a weapons buff ... a Kamikazi loadout.
@@Fuar11 It just makes things more complex than they need to be, especially since capacitor values are being overhauled with engineering, subcomponent tuning, and maintenance.
I honestly hate MM because they just keep adding more and more bloat when it comes to flying. It started with missile operator mode and I was super okay with that, really good choice. Then it was the power triangle and capacitors; okay... like 4 more things to constantly keep track of while in combat. Now it's master modes. This is the worst combat has felt to me hands-down. It doesn't feel like I'm participating in ship combat as much as it feels like I'm in AimLabs just moving my crosshair onto targets.
Backstrafing is worse now than I've ever seen and with strafing having a capped speed it feels really jarring, downright gross, when you pitch/yaw too far from the direction of travel and the game artificially slows you. It goes against all of my instincts when I'm trying to use conservation of energy to merge or "drift" into a favorable firing angle and it feels like someone attached a giant parachute to my ship mid-turn.
I also don't like having yet another button I have to constantly press every single time I quantum travel somewhere, it gets tedious as hell. I vastly preferred the overclock/overheat system with shield face hardening. I guess I'm just jaded after what happened in 3.14 and feel that MMs will become another one of those; where they make a huge sweeping change that they promise will come with thoughtful updates and tweaks, but instead it sits there for another 3 years barely touched.
I will say that MMs feels much better than current flight model ON FLIGHT STICKS. The slower speeds makes everything feel smoother but on mkb it's a jittery mess (combat anyway.)
Things that need adjusted: Max speed should be max speed period, in any direction. How fast you GET to that speed is more important.
Ships should be balanced by their design, not an arbitrary category like "light, medium, heavy"
Shield importance should take a back seat to armor once it's implemented.
There's several other issues I have but most of those are with the new UI and not specifically master modes.
I like MM, the only thing which I'm not sure if they have changed that I don't like is the inability to use chaff and flares in Nav mode
Suppose I make yearly donations to Doctors Without Bourders. I do this because I believe in their mission, to provide medical care in 3rd world countries. Then, one day, I get a letter from them saying that they feel that providing abortions domestically is a better use of donated funds and will now be the focus of the organization
MM is like this. It doesn't matter if it is better or not. It is a different game than what we backed.
I have been putting a modest amount into the game every year for about 6 years because I believed in the vision presented. They are now pursuing a completely different vision.
I am not crying over it, but I am no longer interested in logging in to the game. And will not put new money into SC this year - for the first time. Looking at CIG Financials, there was a notable drop-off at the time MM was showcased. I am really curious about what will happen with sales at Invictus this year. My prediction is it will fall off a cliff.
mastermodes is quite fun tbh however i have one gripe with it and that is the small target cirkels i play on a tv setup (couch citizen)if they cant shange that its fine but i do hope that maybe they can replace the colour of the target cirkel.
Im only looking for a flight model that is hypothetically as realistic as possible. Is master modes it? Maybe, I don't know. But the thing to keep in mind is that it can only improve. At least CIG is trying different things.
I think Master Modes is great, really looking forward to seeing how it develops. It's a huge improvement all around.
I don’t have much input on this but based on the few sessions I had with it it’s not as bad, some getting used to and the fights feel abit restrictive with the speeds. Now I haven’t tried the latest update on them, it does not hinder my chill and fly sessions with lofi low fly music so I am not affected
I think that one of the problems is that people look to others and parrot their opinions.
I haven't played master modes yet, it makes sense on paper however I'm going to wait until I've had first hand experience with it before I make up my mind about it.
I would suggest trying out arena commander first to get a feel for the flight model and what ship you are flying then take it to squadron battle. I’ve gained much fun experience from just that. Doing the PU can be a little bit of a pain.
@@IronVanguardOfficial I think that's what I'll do, I recently made the switch from M&K to duel VKB sticks so I'm still adjusting to that too
@davie
Then why just voice your non-opinion?
@@seekerhooligan781 because liking the video and leaving a comment helps out the creator
I feel like that most people are having a hard time is because it's new and different, having to relearn something as fundamental can feel like a setback, which feels negative. But I do hope we can get countermeasures and markers in nav mode in some shape or form, so you won't get lost or instantly shot down when doing box or cargo missions
I've been playing mostly MM since I've had access in Evo 3.20 and love it. It feels great and solves many problems. High level combat in the current flight model is awful. Effectively using trichording to chase and merge is way harder than I want to put the time in to learn, the high speeds eliminate any possibility for strategic group gameplay, and positional combat only exists if both pilots consent to it.
In MM positional combat with 1v1 clone fighters does exist to some degree but it could be better. I haven't had much of a chance to test pvp in 3.23 so I don't know if it has the same kiting problem 3.22 MM has. CIG knows the duels need to get better, and are working on it, but fleet gameplay is amazing.
How much CIG Is paying you to excuses MM?
As primarily an a1 pilot, 1 thing i dont like about MM is that you cant dive bomb at 900m/s anymore. Will just have to figure out a new way to pilot the a1 effectively now i guess.
I personally would have worked with more realistic G force drawbacks and pilot fatigue mechanics to nerf down fighters while still maintaining performance potential, somewhat realistic immersion and the like. Fighters are supposed to do swooping (jousting) attack runs. You can counter it by encouraging cap ship play, mercenaries, and forcing the fight to a turret clump.
This is using duct tape and hot glue to fix something that they had the tools to fix anyhow.
Fully agreed. I don't think the tunings in MM are perfect but the design itself is fine. They need to do a lot more to make it feel great but I'd take it 100x any day of the week over Live. It's so funny to me seeing people defend the old flight model as if they haven't spent years whining about unrestricted velocities it this whole time.
A buddy of mine linked this video to me and I subscribed. Finally, someone that sees the potential of not zooming at 1243 m/s and getting group pvp involved in A MMO!!! lol Thank you for not having the whiner mentality and taking it as it is. Much appreciated look forward to more videos.
I'm so stoked for mm. Arena commander was a blast. Can't wait for quantum boost to get added.
You usually have extremely sensible takes on things but like you are arguing that things just needed to be tweaked in MMs but that is literally all they had to do with the current flight model. CIG is throwing away a whole flight model because of certain bullshit things that if they worked right in the current flight model would have never been an issue.
It honestly feels like they created these problems just as an excuse for us to complain like the EM signature on the hornet and the stupid Gs some ships can pull those things literally could have been corrected and we wouldnt be seeing the egregious abuse of these things that are just bad design.
But most of all if they wanted light fighters to not be so powerful they could have simply just
-reduce light fighters shields to allow more permanent damage to take place during teamfights
-increased the effective range and damage of multicrew ships that could actually punish lightfighters
-reduced backstrafe on lightfighters
-give turrets percision mode and reduce the range lightfighters can apply damage.
AND most of all- add actual objectives instead of ego fighting its not even just the 1v1s the teams fights are just the same but none of that killing matters without us gaining something other than reputation amongst eachother.
Idk what it is but it just feels like CIG is allergic to gameplay and are so hell bent on adding mechanics that have no win condition to balance against to see if the changes are actually meaningful. Everyone right now is just concerned with their targets being able to get away or if they themselves can escape and their has to be some type of gameplay loop where playing defensively isn't just running away.
Commenting before I watch, but how many matches have I seen where fighters just circle until one runs out of fuel? Its so lame.
anyone remember chris original "I am a PC game" " Star Citizen will never be on console"
master mode is arcade mm is for those who oooo combat is too hard ! i have to practice and learn. master mode is console .
I’ve got 8K hours in SC and have trained with the best and you’re wrong. 3.22 is also arcady and broken. Flying at 1337 full speed back strafing missile spamming doesn’t take a lot of skill.
As for realism do you think we’ll actually dogfight in space in real life? Combat PLANES don’t even do that these days. Ever watch the expanse? That’s realistic space combat, firing missile without ever even seeing your opponent. The problem is that’s not SC and Chris has been pushing “Star Wars style dogfighting” for years.
@@BerksReacts never said 3.22 was better
Finally i agree i've been a backer for about 5 years. I have thought pretty much the same as you. Jousting at full speed isnt really fun. Something new to learn would be a nice change. I havent had fun with sc in awhile.
There is positional combat in MM but ppl just a lot of ppl haven’t worked out how to do it so they just moaning because have to relearn how to do things
@Burks Reacts
So here is my deep dive.
Ill open with this...
The change from the flight model after 3.08/3.09 were really bad, i have hated it since then.
With MM i accept any major change due to 3.22 being just bad.
Now i have limited experience with MM so most of the time when i bring up my thought's people are like "you have no room to talk" but honesty, i dont need 100 hours in MM to understand it's.
With MM we now have multiple modes we have to choose to be in during different activities, this mixes in having to put more thought into what you do.
For example... MM promates cooperative play...
If me and the boys try to pirate a ship said ship could attempt to flee with increased speed vs us being slow. But he risks possibility of massive damage. In turn if he swaps to combat to bring up his shields now he is super tanky but being solo in a trade ship this would get him killed.
So next tike he flies with an escort therfore promoting a coopertive play style.
Overall i miss the high octane high speed combat, boom and zoom sucked but itnwas a viable tactic. Then in CIGs attempt to brijg the fight closer just made everything worse.
So with MM we now have slowboat ships that actually become highely maneuverable and dangerous. We swap between different modes and also not having shields online allows armor to be used in its roll, this also makes EMPs more viable as well as the changes to tackle with a QED forcing you to be put on the defensive.
Idk... all in all i am down with change
I love master modes! Yeah, it needs messed with, but it's a step in the right direction. Can never go back to 3.22.
@berksReacts If in real life you feel you would build space ships that use's MM, or limited by MM then so be it.
I'd build ships that revolves around the most important component, the pilot not some AI interface designed to level the playing field.
SC is now so far off the grid it's no longer a skilled experience but a numbers game, we'd be as well just rolling a dice.
MM is clearly meant to make multicrew and squdron battles viable rather than a series of 1v1s.
Thats great, i want to see the HH useful beyond larping. If MM comes in and the HH continues to be a pretty hangar decoration, throw it out.
In terms of non-combat ships it seems clear their inclusion is a bit of an afterthought. On paper it seems that 3.23 is going to be an incredibly rough patch for them. Once they actually start putting work into how non-combat ships fly itll be interesting to see how its accepted
Anymore, I put the complaints about Master Modes into a few categories.
1). People that don't play SC creating ragebait complaints because the drama makes them feel validated.
2). Sweatlords alpha-splaining to everyone else because they believe their opinion is more valuable than anyone that disagrees with them.
Keep in mind, SC is still in development and things will be adjusted in future patches. CIG has even said they put things in the game to see if we think it is as bad as they do.
'Sweatlords alpha-splaining' 🤣😂😂
@theopinion
Sooo.. nothing valid to say?
Just hypocrisy and salt. Nice
Note that despite Berks asking MANY times, nobody was able to articulate what was wrong with Master Modes.
They said precision mode, which isn't anything to do with Master Modes, and then they said "no skill", which they weren't able to articulate for reasons.... basically, a lot of noise they picked up off of Reddit/Spectrum. The skill thing is really ridiculous because engineering and armour and flight control surfaces are all coming in, and there is zero possibility of a five-minute newbie being able to out-perform someone with 1,000 hours in any situation when those added systems are live.
@toasty
Except.. MANY comments have
its only 1 thing that needs to be changed asap is the targeting UI its like 10000000000000000000000000000000000 red markers on the screen idk who tf to shoot at lol I mean I can adjust the others but this gotta go
I agree with you man. I have fun with MM in arena commander.
I don't get the MM haters as well. I am having lots of fun!
Is it perfect: No? But it's the first iteration and it DELIVERS
I was able to simply DODGE rockets in NAV mode, they've got a hard time keeping up with at 1100m/s ship that maneuvres all the time.
Spectrum is full of mostly useless hyperbole
there's some good ideas and feedback, but so many of these people are just living inside some version of SC in their own head
Hate it. Put in about six hours and its like going backwards. I feel stuck to whoever I engage or engages me. Weird "trapped in a bubble" feel that is almost reminiscent of a stand up arcade game. Just cant get into it. If this is what we see in the PU its going to take alot to entice me to even bother with PVP in the future.
Each to their own, but I think there were ways to do this that didnt involve torching the present flight model entirely.
Master modes has tons of issues. It’s still better than what we have. I like it a lot and can’t wait for where they go with it. Change my mind.
All of the bad points you mentioned about 3.22 flight model are all combat. For none combat players, all MM does is add unnecessary button presses and waiting times every time we quantum.
if you're in a solo ship though it literally takes a second or two of wait time, also i've found I get places faster, because I can just cut back to scm mode when I get close to something and cut speed for free lmao (still my only complaint with the model)
Can't... you just say in travel mode? If you are not doing combat.
IE. no extra button.
@@garrettthefrank1903 my SRV is a solo ship with size 2 quantum, maybe thats the problem...
There’s a spool up for QT in 3.22 right now though? Also I find nav mode really nice, no more respooling! Once your in, you can do 10 jumps in a row no problem.
The way some of the non-combat ships fly is my main issue.
@@jeffrbake correct
obviously you did not play the Arena before the 2.0, and missed the flight model that was dicarded in 2017. That period was the most utter shit flight model with "modes". Manual transmission in space. Restrictions without any sane reason. Like the landing tunnels they wanted to put in game. Always more restrictions to avoid dealing with problems good way, which is not the easy way usually.
There’s restrictions right now, they’re just higher outside of SCM in 3.22. Both models are “arcadey” and neither represent real life IMO.
If you don’t like the limits of MM, I understand, but I would take master modes any day over what is high speed, no skill missile spam, running away meta. You end the fight 150K away from where it started. It’s horrid.
The old flight model was (and cruise) was removed because Chris at the time wanted a seamless transition from SCM to QT he mentioned on a pillar talk a few years back. Ramp in inputs, and slower SCM speeds have been at the forefront of PvP discussion from Shadow Moses, AVS, Black Fleet, Liberty Reapers and more. Org fights at the moment at the top level is just nobody dying for an hour while everyone runs away at full speed. Why? Because the game lets you in the flight model.
Saying nobody misses it just isn’t true.
The reason it's bad for me is the fact that we are losing freedom. The SCM mode and NAV mode just feels like a gimmick they put in for ballance. I thought this was a space Sim, not an arcade game...
It's a sci-fi Sim, not a true space sim and the current model is extremely arcadey.
1:25 You do understand you're also speaking from a place of bias right?
People act like this first iteration that they publicly test (ignoring the experimental arena commander mode) is the definitive version for whatever reason. Of course it still requries quiet a bit of tweaking, even CIG said that from the start. Most ships still need their individual flightmodels tweaked and industrial especially need a balancing pass. People hate it without giving it a chance either because they are scared of such a radical change (understandable to a degree) or because they are sweaty 24/7 1v1 pvp arena commander nerds that see their stupid light fighter meta in danger. Its basically the 2.x to 3.x flight model change situation all over again where people proclaimed the end of star citizen and that they ruined it all.
Your great Berks straight to the point as i am hearing to many negatives and mourning about this
I’m still a little scared I won’t be able to solo my C2 in the future.
Honestly really been loving master modes and all the cool quirks it brings and it’s made catching targets when flying the mantis fun again. It’s no longer just fly at target, drop bubble, win it’s switch to travel mode, chase the target, get ahead of the targets position, drop back to scm, deploy bubble, try to adjust for target manoeuvring, catch target. In all honesty the master modes changes is good for PvE players it creates counter play to QD damps you can avoid them as the interdictor has to drop back to scm to be able to deploy.
Yeah I mean, everyone's got their opinions and experiences, but I like it. I also played back when we had a similar thing with the 3 modes, though, so maybe I'm biased in that way? Love how Berks calls out the first dude in Spectrum for his tone and stupid platitudes lol. Honestly it just feels like the latest uproar from probably a fractional part of the playerbase that just has to be angry about something every 6 months. There's my platitude. Seriously, all I see is people going into Twitch chat and trying to drum up support for all this complaining, or seeing YT videos that are 90% wastes of time just barking about it. Maybe if there was more constructive feedback I'd not feel so annoyed, but the vast majority is just complaining.
Yeah, it's different. It feels fundamentally different. But it doesn't feel BAD to me, and thinking forward, I can see it becoming way better for the game than whatever they could message the current combat into. Gotta think about the big picture. Point out individual flaws, sure (saw some in chat) - but making a big hoot about how the whole thing is going to break the game is just exhausting. The new flight model seems to be a much better *foundation* - that's what matters. And we can move forward from that. We've been trying to move forward with the last flight model for over half a decade, and it's just not happening. Gotta try something new.
MM is the future 🤷🏼♂️ keeps fights close and interesting
I'm 100% with you. I much prefer MM to the live model.
I tried master modes and honestly i was surprised how FUN it was. I heard so much negativity from the community about it but when i tried it myself i was like, why does it feel like I'm ACTUALLY flying a spaceship for once? lol
There's no positional combat because there's no pushing.
Even a Connie can beat a Gladius in a duel if he knows how to kite.
Every flight model change has triggered months worth of salt.... yet still here we are. Imagine that.
Greetings from Hawaii
👍 given
As a RUclips viewer, I appreciate your views and candid points always.
And I have learned to stay off spectrum. That article got 500 uploads because 499 of them are whiners who complained about anything to get attention..
Big man Thank you for sharing 🪐
I love you Berks, you hammered the nail on the head. People are afraid and resist change. Keep on enjoying :)
I havent tried it yet but im looking forward to it alot, glad some people like it.
People who mastered the OLD Flight Model are crying the most as they need to Relearn to fight n fly again. They don't like being just like everyone else again.
That's not the problem. MM is the same boring assed flight model we've had in every ARCADE space combat game for 30 years... definitely no longer worthy of being called a simulation
@@nuanil it was never a 'simulation' ... it's a game and the developers decide how it is.
You can take it or leave it, but whining about having them take your toys away is just lame.
@@Glathgrundel it was. We were promised newtonian DCS in space, including every thruster individually modeled and affected by damage. A proper PC game that could never be played on a console due to the depth of gameplay and number of individual control inputs.
@albertom
Says the guy lashing out because he got his way with MM..Dude.. you're literally being a hypocrite, and therefore you're opinion is void.
There's people on both sides of the MM debate. Most of us here are acknowledging that fact and having a debate. You're the guy Berks is talking about complaining with no citing of fact or constructive opinion. Just because people disagree, doesn't mean they're your target of self righteousness.
@glath
Another player hurling insults with no constructive information and waving a MM flag...is this really the biased opinions we want our game to strive for? Look, this isn't your platform to sjw because you feel you're on a winning side.
Some of us REALLY love this game and would like it to turn out the best for ALL, while maintaining that it's tough for CIG to please everyone.. I no way am I biased to AV1 here, although I don't think he's wrong about MM, but.. as an example..
That means PVP/PVE/AC players like AV1/Berks /Virgil/Voidy/Cozy (love the Cozy styles) etc etc.. who may or may not take a lot of grief, but have been playing since the inception, MAY just have a point?
Some of us are trying to debate to get it all to the surface. Being a part of the problem is not being part of the solution. Maybe try to make your comment worth it
The main reason for the hate is it shifts the meta from the light fighter jousting fighting to have to put thought into targeting and planning out a fight
it feels bad just flying from a to b not even in combat