I've talked for ages about wanting to dive a bit deeper into more "Serious" subjects, cultural depictions generally being the example I use. Today, we're gonna start dipping our toes into this realm of content. Is it a good idea? Potentially not! Is it an interesting idea, abso-fucking-lutely, and I will happily go through some growing pains to develop the communication skills necessary to discuss these sorts of topics with ease. Not a replacement for lighter videos, but I'll definitely do comparably serious content in addition to that, I think how media shows off culture/myth/religion is fascinating and I love talking about it. With that in mind, I have a request. I clearly don't subscribe to the internet's "rubber-gloves" approach to topics like this and I don't ever intend to. It's dumb, it destroys terminally online people's conflict management skills, it overvalues offense far past what the average person will care about, and amplifies the severity of discussions around these topics by creating an air of "These are supposed to go poorly". They're not, people are just bad at it. So my request is to not shy away from the discussions. Try to stay civil of course, but if something feels wrong say so, if there's a further direction to be pushed don't be afraid to brainstorm. I'll be more active in both moderating and discussion in the chat for this one, along with any other similarly styled videos in the future, because I want to get better at communicating around these subjects too. Try developing that skill, it can help tremendously throughout ones life! Also go play Age of Mythology, its a 10/10 game.
I'm Jewish (as in the ethnicity, not the religion) and I wanted to note that your idea of giving demons to the other factions actually lines up with the fact that demons in the Hebrew Bible were likely meant to represent other religions, so it makes sense that the opposing factions can use the biblical interpretation of demons from that perspective (although the connotations are not great). Also, it's not that important but in the context of Judaism it doesn't make that much for angels to be some kind of overpowered units since they're literally just meant to be messengers of God that don't have any agency beyond that.
As a Christian it was genuinely shocking to me when I learned about things like Golems or The Leviathan when I was much older. Even within practice of the religion the more fantastical side of Abrahamic myth is swept under the rug. Also, as a writer, it genuinely is extremely frustrating the amount of moralistic backlash if I ever try to include aspects of Native American mythology and people saying that I'm not 'allowed to.' There's a lot of protectiveness over these ideas, but there's also not resources to learn. Researching Native American myths online is really difficult and primary sources are tough to find, and the stranger side of Abrahamic myth is kept hidden a lot of the time. Humanity's stories shouldn't be gatekept. We should be able to learn from them, build off them, or even make God of War or Hazbin Hotel style bastardizations of them.
Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that the Leviathan and a beast known as "Behemoth" were casually mentioned in passing somewhere in the Old Testament. Fitting those in somewhere would be fun to see.
It's especially important given the alternative. Because things like Hazbin Hotel are going to exist regardless of people's feelings towards their existence, the irreverence is a major selling point! If you hold back from other depictions of Abrahamic myth, if you hold back from trying to further explore Indigenous myth, you are ONLY left with the stuff that's either outdated or flat out doesn't care how people feel about the original stories. And frankly that's just a lesser timeline than the one where creators can explore these aspects of culture.
I get that reception with Chinese myth and history, when I am not Chinese, and that DEEPLY annoys me. You know what I say? "Yes I can. What are you gonna do?"
ngl a AoM christian/Abrahamic civ would be amazing, with myth units like seraphs, cherubins, demons, golems, dragons, tarasques, jinns, leviathans and behemoths
@@matheusbianquincera3104especially if you went with the Catholic version where you could have the Saints as heroes/minor God's. Or you could choose from the Apostles. I think Judas would have to be excluded however due to the whole Betrayal thing though.
After watching this, it's making me realize how little I actually know about the world around me. So, I'm a Christian, one who still has flaws to overcome mind you but hey that's human nature, life is a spiritual war, gotta keep moving forward and rise above your demons. I have always wanted to know about other cultures, religions, political standings, etc so I can relate to someone else's experience. I think there's some people that kinda have this "If they aren't apart of my group/religion/culture/ political leanings then I dehumanize/hate them". I forget who said this, but I remember one guy on a YT Short saying that "Once we stop talking about our differences, violence breaks out" and I think that's true if you look back at history. So, I want to learn as much as possible outside of my little scope to avoid that. Which leads to this video. I think this would be a great introduction for people like me who want to learn cultures and religions but maybe are a bit overwhelmed or maybe they get burnt out or any number of reasons. This could be a great gateway for that. And it being a good game on top of all that is just the cherry on top! I wish this was a thing, and I'll try to give AoM a shot (even though I suck at those types of games lol) - Akonu
I watched this entire video on TV, then spent a painful amount of time looking for it on my phone as I did not remember the title or your channel name. And I just want to say: your ideas are awesome. *AND SOMEONE, GIVE THIS MAN A VIDEOGAME DEVELOPMENT STUDIO!* and also an infinite budget. Seriously though, your idea for an Abrahamic faction is so unique! I can think of literally nothing else like it!
God that statue of Jesus pointing finger guns slays me. Anyway, a fascinating deep dive into the potential of a game I’ve only heard of in passing. It’s also compelling to really think about how we treat mythologies and religion in not only how they’re actively practiced but how they are portrayed to those that don’t know or aren’t interested in them. Personal stuff but I’ve been raised Christian my entire life, so seeing archangels and prophets fight against the Greek pantheon is very compelling (and funny enough a weird mirror into actual history). I also want it treated with the level of respect and competency that the other pantheons get because the amount of dedicated research taken to ensure those are implemented properly while having some fun is really great! The implementation of Jesus himself as the final wild card that uses an alternate win condition by forgiving his enemies and befriending them is both comical and very fitting. Plus giving the biblical characters the spotlight is excellent, as it’s arguably the most compelling aspect of the Bible stories. Seeing Moses, David, or Elijah get some screen time and not just Jesus and His disciples is an excellent way to open up those tales to those who otherwise might not be familiar with or interested in them. A common thread in those stories is seeing how God works through people, and therefore inspires others to do the same. Having their abilities be titled “God’s Power” or something along those lines would be a seemingly minimal UI touch up that would go a long way in better representing those figures. If this team were able to nail those concepts and implement them into compelling gameplay loops and strategies, sign me up, it’s going up on the shelf with Prince of Egypt and VeggieTales as Christian media that I get on my knees and thank the Lord that they exist. I say this because I think people are starving for that media that represents their beliefs as you brought up in that video. Having the show where everyone pokes fun at the creator for having the cast say fuck repeatedly to the point where it gets childish be the current pop culture representation? Nah. Show me Moses parting the Mediterranean Sea to help Jesus make the breakaway to befriend a Fire Giant or Hydra. I’ll take that any day. Alright mini-rant over. When are they dropping the Flying Spaghetti Monster with the Pastafarian pantheon? I’d co-main that.
I think it would be cool if they used the cthulhu mythos as a pantheon to spice things up later when they make more, the mod sold me on how cool and fun it was(the eldritch mod).
Definitely something I'd only want to see later down the line, after they've got a mix of older myth and legend. But I agree, it'd be fascinating seeing a more modern day mythos like lovecraftian horror
Especially Irish Celtic myths being the most well-documented and preserved, and famous in pop culture like Mystic Knights of Tír na nÓg (from the creators of Power Rangers many years ago), the Fate series and also SMITE. Sorry, Gallic Celts
Yo Duke, since you asked us to not shy away from criticism, I thought I should share what I think is sort of a problem with the Abrahamic idea. For starters I wanna say that I think it's a very cool concept, and mechanically it's brilliant (I mean, I think so, RTS isn't something I know much about), but I feel like it sort of leans too far into portraying that religion as the "correct" one? In your design not only is the biblical God much more powerful than any other ones, to the point even his angels and prophets are stronger than "full" gods of other pantheons, but by default all of the opponents of this faction will be in league with the devil, which paints them as pretty villainous and is something I think some people belonging to those cultures would take offense to. Jesus' ability being to convert others also feeds into that, I understand why it's there but I feel like that does sort of portray the faction as being ultimately correct, if even their opponents eventually agree with that (and also puts them on a moral high ground because their ultimate game plan is to convert the enemies rather than slay them). I should say I'm not extremely familiar with Age of Mythology (I played the one on the Nintendo DS when I was really young, and that's it) so maybe all of this fits the tone, and I don't know if it's something many people would take massive issue with, but I thought I should share the thought anyways.
Conceptually I completely agree, it's a fundamental issue that was constantly bugging me. In a vacuum I'd prefer a more traditional RTS faction, but the game isn't being made in a vacuum, it's being made in the modern day. Using that bridge metaphor I had in the video, I don't think it would be wise to immediately jump to the desired destination. Just like how Shiva was the de-facto best god in Smite when he arrived, buttering up the respective religion helps tremendously in making the translation into a video game smoother. I didn't cover Hindu in the video, but I'd try to find some way to do the same there for similar reasons. All that said, you are right, it's worth taking another pass at. Perhaps the demons are neutral altogether on the map, only actively attacking the Abrahamic player? Or make it a barter system, the opponent can tribute that neutral demon AI to gain units from them. Something like that, I'm sure there's a sweet spot somewhere in there.
I would be interested in Japan and the Philippines being new factions after China is added, it would allow for a more interconnected campaign for the new factions. Both are also fairly well known mythologies as well. For a hypothetical second game though, I would like Norse, Celtic, Greek, Egyptian and Mesopotamian. Plus since Egypt and Greek have Mesopotamian units already it would be fairly easy to justify roster changes for those two. Ultimately I view Age of Mythology as more of campaign game and would much rather factions be built in a way that would allow them to have the best campaign possible then for multiplayer.
Absolutely agree on the campaign front, this game is at its strongest when these factions are interacting. Tale of the Dragon was flawed for a ton of reasons, but I think one of the biggest was the fact that the Chinese storyline was completely divorced from everything else. No Greek centaur searching for the head of an Egyptian god with the help of surprise Norse allies, it's just Yin and Yang again. Though I wouldn't want geography to stop them. This is mythology, it'd be easy to come up with some mystical bullshit solution to allow global factions to keep interacting with each other.
okay to make a comment after watching the video, I think that the concepts shared are neat! Some of these faction ideas are genuinely so cool and unique. As a person who has went and made an RTS faction in SC3 Terran, these sort of ideas are just incredibly rad and I wish I was able to come up with ideas this cool. The idea of a faction that inherently buffs the enemy by summoning things on their side is just... so cool. It's really cool. I would also find it very fascinating as to how these sort of factions would be tied into campaign content. The storytelling potential is just... absurd, though admittedly I do think that would be the most likely target of outrage if it were to include major world religions. Imagine a version of SC2's In Utter Darkness that is essentially just a partial retelling of Revelations, except that you're working together with all the factions to try and fight it! or, i don't know, something similar to that. There are probably plenty of doomsday myths that I don't personally know, and that would be neat to see.
God can you imagine the stories that could be told? Mirror Thrall encountering the Tauren for the first time, except here its Kastor and the goddamn 12 tribes of Israel. Obviously SO MANY ways it could go wrong, but there must be sweet spot somewhere in there. I don't think it would be the worst thing for an important artifact to be hidden within the walls of Jericho, so our heroes help protect the Abrahamics walking the cities perimeter so they can take it down. Veggietales did it with Jericho using slushies as weapons, surely there's room for more interpretations there.
I'm currently working with some friends on a mod suite for Civilization V based on adding less western centric resources (among other things including a less western centric tech tree & a belief pack taking inspiration from more religious branches/sects) so I'm glad folks are pushing forward on this type of topic discourse wise. Speaking as a political science degree holder with an interest in history and two friends studying in the field of anthropology/indigenous studies so at the risk of dunning-krugering myself I think I can offer an interesting outlook here. Note that I don't think this necessarily conflicts with the crux of what you are saying but is something that a dev would need to keep in mind: A lot of core baseline game design tropes by virtue of originating in the 1970s - 1990s predominantly culturally homogeneous dev environment (though there are notable overlooked exceptions like Jerry Lawson, Nasir Gebelli, & Muriel Tramis) of America's Silicon Valley, France, and/or Kyoto, Japan are built off a ton of humanistic, patriarchal, & capitalistic outlook on the world. Not saying this inherently good or bad but it does present challenges in the matter of adapting certain cultures respectively. Sid Meier's Civilization core 4X formula, for example, is based on a very America circa 1980 something pulp history understanding of the world that often romanticizes stuff like say the America settling of the "untamed" frontier or British colonization of Africa the "dark continent" built around European sedentism based societies as default. Given RTS games have their historic origin in war game table top scene I imagine similar issues might exist there but RTS games are a blind spot for me so I'll concede I might be wrong there. One could argue to make a truly respectful game play implementation for a polity like the Cree tribes in ether genre is something that would ether requiring reevaluating foundational tropes of their existence or at least being aware of what assumptions are at the core of game rules. Again not impossible but requires more work than something you can graft on to a pre-existing game mold IMO. You'd almost need the strategy game equivalent of a deconstructionist genre work like Watchmen to pull it off in my opinion. The closest thing we have as a model for how this might work is the deconstructionist city builder Terra Nil which emphasizes environmental management to subvert assumptions of infinite growth & sprawl present in that genre's base game rules. EDIT: Thinking on it more folks might get confused by my cognitive dissonance with modder for Civ V context and that last paragraph so I'll elaborate a bit more there. Way I see it it is one thing for modders to do it for both fun and the purposes of moving the overton window of the subject pre-Columbian cultural representation in gaming on limited resources & say a big company like say bigwigs at Microsoft or 2K inadvertently spreading misinformation just because they are too cheap to hire consultation or risk adverse to break formula.
I do agree on principle, the fundamental cultural differences are a massive roadblock when implementing indigenous cultures. You are correct that similar issues exist in RTS, the Age of games arguably moreso due to being built off of how Eurasian societies evolved over the years. Archaic age through to imperialism, basing gameplay benefits from moving through that timeline, it's not a framework indigenous cultures mesh with well. Though, I don't know if I'd view that as enough to bar implementation altogether. I can see the complaints surrounding the Cree faction in Civilization 6, I'm sure there must be ways to do so better in that games framework, but I also don't see such efforts being realistic in our modern gaming environment. If a faction takes too much extra work that faction would just be scrapped. So if the choice is an off-kilter implementation of the Cree or no Cree at all, I think having them is still the better option, it's still a positive step in the right direction. An improved depiction of Poundmaker, a (shallow) show of respect to highlight a culture on the same level of others, introducing more people to the phenomenal music the Cree faction possess, etc. I hope this is coming across the way I want it to, I'm not trying to handwave those concerns to justify the current state of the industry. I just think that purely positive implementations aren't quite feasible yet, at least in the current development culture, and that I think the messier inclusions like the Cree in Civ 6 still ultimately move the dial in a positive direction. And I do hope that developers would recognize that and keep these cultures in their games, at bare minimum they give a stronger platform for Indigenous voices to call out for something better. And maybe that will help make those purely positive implementations possible down the line? Really the crux of the whole issue is a lack of gameplay formats that DO gel with non-capitalistic cultures, I would love to see the direction Terra Nil is poking in be further expanded upon in the future. Thanks for the comment, it's exactly the kind of quality I was hoping to get from a topic like this one.
Ah! I see what you did there Duke, coming in with a Big Brain Move by just shadow-dropping a video as a Quote-Unquote ‘Submission’ before ending today’s Persoective… Very Clever~
Factions I'd love to see, Aztec or maso Amercian, Celt, Slavic, Japan, Oceania's ( peoples like Maori, Hawaiian that kind of people) Philippines/ south East Asia. Because dame they gut a lot of weird shit people are sleeping on myth and cryptid wise. Africa south/ Central And maybe something for native Americans and aboriginal. Just not a lot of their mythology creatures have been preserved in the same other ancient peoples have. I wouldn't really want to see any of the monotheism gods or abramic.the factions should stick with pathionions.
Christians should have a timer that at one point invokes sunday, in which their villagers are not allowed to work and their soldiers not allowed to fight. If you succesfully get through sunday without working and fighting, you will gain favor.
I don't know if a game like this could get away with soldiers (Unless angels take their place?), but a sabbath timer where villagers stop working and generate favor instead is absolutely brilliant.
@@TheDukeofDorks How I mechanically think it should work, is let's call it "sabbath" timer should be a visible clock that cycles around with 1/7th or so of the cycle be sabbath. When you reach the sabbath, your workers will cease working and generate favor for their idle time. Idle soldiers will do the same. They will trickle favor for idling. It is not always possible to have everyone idle, but those who can will trickle favor for you during the sabbath. If you are pressured by the enemy and badly need economy, there should be an option to click on the clock to cease sabbath for all workers, and that will return them to work. Just as a quality of life thing.
Christianity probably gonna have the gimmick of not having mythic Unit with No Major and Minor Gods but Churches and Virtues. Major Churches would be Catholic, Orthodox and non-Chalcedonian while virtues are tied to certain Saints. They could borrow a lot of mechanics from aoe3 like home city shipments replacing Powers and the ability to train 5 units consecutively or having the best Cavalry in the game to offset their weakness in not having any mythic Unit.
Going to be honest with the whole 'offended' point. Only one I ever saw in regards to Hindu being used (happened in smite) is when people (who I'm not even sure play said game, and am almost sure weren't Hindu themselves) got offended about one of the Hindu goddesses (Kali I think it was) being practically naked in game. Despite her being commonly depicted thus in Hindu depiction. As for the entire point about people being offended by part of their religion being depicted, I point to christianity and literally any depiction of heavenly angels and hellish demons/devils, those are so common these days and nobody cares that its not faithfully represented in the best light... Okay not nobody, but those who do are often seen as being way too into it even by fellow christians. Same with Djinns (... think its muslim. And I'm going to butcher this as my knowledge of Islam is tiny), nobody really cares or speaks out about their demons being depicted as scantily clad elemental babes/strongmen. Or at least I've NEVER heard of any controversy about such which wasn't part of feminists screeching about how girls in video games should be ugly because it otherwise encourages rape and unrealistic expectations. Hell Naga ARE Hindu, yet never heard a word of protest about them being used whereever. Or the Rakshasa. Or any version of elephant people who are probably based off Ganesh(a?). Honestly I just think the entire 'point' is incredibly overblown for what it is, and used as justification for decisions it really shouldn't be.
I see stuff like it all the time, but I probably also seek it out more than most, it's something I find fascinating. In the grand scheme of things the overlap between video game player and religious practitioner isn't the largest, you have to venture outside of video game spaces to find that kind of disdain. Absolutely does exist, it just rarely makes headlines anymore because the problems people have had with how games treat stuff like angels vs. demons haven't changed since... what, the original Doom I think? Arguably since Dungeons and Dragons! Either way I do agree that it is absolutely overblown, the internet puts wayyyyyyyyy too much weight behind a single voice crying foul about something. But I do still think it's worth keeping in mind if only for appearances sake, it makes it easier for the more reasonable majority of practitioners to drown out those who refuse to accept it. The goal isn't to make something a believer is indifferent towards, the goal is to make something a believer might think is actually pretty cool!
People used the excuse of the detection of the goddess, but the actual problem was that 1) The goddess was contrable by a player 2) She could be killed in game.
Very well said and thoughtful. There are so many civs and myths that have yet to be explored in this series. Although, I wonder... what happens if the monotheistic civ fights another faction of the same civ. You've planned this out with the monotheistic civ fighting outsiders, but it's already a set precedent that opposing teams can be of the same civ. Greeks fighting Greeks, Egyptians fighting Egyptians, and Norse fighting Norse. That was all there in the original game campaign. Thus the result of that would be two monotheistic teams fighting each other. Both sides aided by angels and demons? Both would combat heavenly units and hellish opponents. A conflict that ceases to be black and white despite the presence of icons that represent an objective divide between good and evil. A strange sight to behold. But this game is about myths being objectively true in the world. So, it's not the oddest thing we've seen here. I would love to see it included in the game.
If they did Abrahamic I would like them to have the 'convert enemy' mechanic that has been used for priests in AoE and simmilar. Tweaked of course. It's both an 'Age game' staple, a unique way to play and it fits the theme, missionaries is a big thing, as is converting, done a bit differently but still.
Ok I personaly would like to see Celtic mytholgy getting represented here. I would eat that up seeing that getting more love and exploration. Also I know Antrtcia is like well un inhabited and junk but we do kind of have some myths surrounding it.~ I think an Antartic Mythos facton would be something incredable because it would have to be something completely differant from the normal that leans into some pretty forgotten folk lore and pop culture. Yeah there be no natzis to worry abotu here but you could take from the mythos of hallow earth and there being being a secret sociaty using crystals as like super computures, yuo could have dinosaurs! I know AtlanTIS HAS ALREADY BEEN TACKLED so it would kind of be pointless to use Antaric for that Myth, but then again you could still havee Atlantion on it maybe trying to start a new Atlantis of something, you could have the Ejyptions set up here. because ancient pyrimids except eJYPTIONS AREN'T THE ONLY ONES TO do that but again you could give this place it's verry own civilization and myth units could be baseed on anything believed to be at the South pole! from theories about aliens being their to literaly mythicals monsters people depicted as being at the north pole on old maps. There's room to play around... I also have an alternate suggestion. We are seeing the return of Age of Empires and Ege of Mythology but we're also seeing the return of an old favorite of mine Empire Earth now being called soemthing else or being recreated or havign a spiritual successor called Eprie Eternal or something. Basicly Empire Earth was like Age of Empires on steroids with alot more ages to advance into, from the cave man age into like the space age >:3 Sooo what am I suggesting? well if Empire Earth is like Age of Empires on steroids why not give Age of Mytholgy the same treatment! Not only that but also anyone rememebr Comand and Conquer and miss that? from generals to Red Allert! Why not make a mega love lett too all of these! Something that is like Empire Earth but to Age empires 1,2,3,4 Age of Mythology, Empire Earth itself and the Command and Conquyers series! To much? ok let's tone it down for now and propose for two differant projects oen that leans more towards givign Age of Mytholgy the Empuire Earth Treatment and the Other giving Command and Conquers that treatment~ So how would this work? well for Age of the Mytholgy perhaps the answer could be called Legend Eras of Mythos! For Command and Conquerer on one hand you had a modern world taking on a guy who was wanting to harvest some new mineral and become a new super power in the modern day, you also had Red Alert that involved an a time machine and an alternate timeline dealign against the soviats. you also got Generals which focused more on a parrelel of current conflices with china and the Middles East. Basicly The Answer would obviosly have to involve not only asking what if but also wouldn't it be cool if? SO WE COULD maybe dive not only into the interoduction of new rescources but also time travle and other cool scenarios that involves differant timelien and factions that come from them. The End result could literaly be some kind of colonies being set up on a timeline of Earth that never had huimanity or where something became eof humanity. Allowjng for new world powers to try and make claims to this new world. possibly some losing their foot hold in the timeline they came from. Not sure what you'd call that one though. Maybe...TimeLine's Banner?
@@thesmilyguyguy9799 Thanks ^^ I kind of see the main time Line as more of a dot surrounded by ripples. Time is like ajet stream constantly moving us forward in the 4th dimensions but that's the mani form of time we understand is Liniar time. but when you move away from the center of the ripples the force forwad in time is less powerful and esier to resist the further out you go. but father out from the center are alternate timelines. Anyways which idea would you want to talk about? Legend Eras of Mythos? or Time Line Banner?
@@thesmilyguyguy9799 Alright , it's ok buddy ^^. but I'm always happy to share ideas around and to exchange ideas too. Glad you like my ideas though ^^
Coming from someone who wants to eventually dive into how I view religion and stuff similar to it like spirituality in my works, I LOVE THIS! Legit the only reason why I want to stay away from stuff like Heaven is simply due to me not wanting to tell people what morals to follow and how to live their lives...... but I'm still including Pagan deities in my verse because I like the idea of them being angels who wanted to fuck around with the humans and ended up forming religions as a result. Actually, now I am kinda curious about doing a story centered entirely around how a religion forms, especially when you're like me and have a triangle of power systems to work with...... will keep in mind. Side note but that Jesus idea is genius and I LOVE videos like this. Good luck with college king!
1:23 well the "vikings", (which is a stupid term as it's commonly used. It's like calling all Romans the gladiators. Rant out.) weren't wearing horned helmets. However the people living in Scandinavia during the Bronze Age where Greek and Egyptian mythology takes place did wesr horned helmets. At least according to contemporary iconography. So in a weird way it's actually accurate for norse people to wear horned and winged helmets in a mythological setting in the Bronze Age.
Thank you for mentioning sub-saharan africa and even pre-columbian natives as potential candidates, as these do have a highly intrueging candidates IMO. But I would choose them after the three best bets IMO, i.e. Mesoamerica, India and Mesopotamia. But I would refrain from using an abrahamic religion for two reasons: 1. Abrahamic religions do not have the same pull factor as an entire pantheon IMO. And 2. Abrahamic religions are an offshoot of canaantic and mesopotamian religions. E.g. the Leviathan is most likley an analouge of Tiamat. And the flood myth is taken from mesopotamian myths too, as is the creation of the world in 7 days. Indeed IIRC Abraham even comes from there. Also in the Old Testament itself we see a transition from polytheism to henotheism to monotheism. Many gods-> primary god+extras-> only one god. E.g. where El and Yahwe are sometimes written as different entities. Or how in Exodus its not argued that the other gods are fake. their priests can still do the same stuff moses can. But the egyptian gods are much weaker than moses deity and so are their wonders. And people who spoke to god, still worshiped other gods, including King Solomon. In addition to many other parts. Most likley proper monotheism was created during the babylonian exile, where the israelite exiles radicalized their faith. Anyhow, having Assyria or Babylon as proper cultures would cover a lot of stuff of abrahamic cultures may have, whilst also having a proper intrueging pantheon and a stronger identity in an AoM game.
Your 2nd point is just flat out correct, but I would push back a bit on the 1st, just because I'd argue the reason an Abrahamic "Pantheon" doesn't have the same pull is more just that the older, more mystical sides of things haven't been explored. Which yes directly feed into your 2nd point that those aspects largely came from other cultures, but I still feel a hunger to see at least one showcase of the more fantastical side of Abrahamic myth. Babylon would go so hard though, I wanna see a Gilgamesh centered campaign so badly.
what about just go beyond, like making fictional creatures and let them fight these earthly mythology entities, like imagine arkantos fighting Lovecraftian monster like cthulhu and etc, so we are not locked behind what we know from history (It's myth after all) The ideas and imagination is endless and limitless
I feel like instead of the major gods being angels which I don't think Christians would ever worship, it would be better to do father, son and holy spirit which are more like different aspects of god. the holy spirit would be about healing, buffing and tech, the son would be about human units and father will be about god powers. I also think it would be cool to incorporate historical figures as minor gods such as Richard the lionheart, Charlamagne, Joan of arc etc. instead of myth units they get unique human/hero units such as crusaders and paladins
I would go this route for a purely Christian/Catholic faction if the time period was a little further forward in the future. But given the more archaic setting, Ancient Egypt and Greece and all that, I think a more generalized Abrahamic approach works better. Especially since if a more Christian specfic approach was taken I'd want equal measures of Islam and Judaism for fairness, which just takes up a lot of space. That said, could be an excellent set-up for a sequel!
That's fine and all, but the main reason it won't work is because the very premise itself would acknowledge the in game existence of other pantheons/gods than the one/ones you believe in making their claims of being the only true gods/god false, which would be blasphemous to any person with any religion.
I don't think its wise to make broad statements like "Any person WOULD feel this way." Some would, sure, and the internet does like to cave to the most abrasive spokesperson of whatever group is speaking. But that's both ridiculous and counterintuitive, it completely ignores the wider scope of a group that is indifferent to internet discourse and actively fuels depictions that lean on being as blasphemic as possible. Engagement is all that matters online, if a group pushes a creation that's actively trying to show them in a positive light they will only be left with creators who couldn't care less about their feelings. Which is probably why many creators wisely recognize this and do it anyway. Japan especially doesn't care, Moses is gonna part the Red Sea with a Beyblade and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Hell I'd go so far as to say it's an untapped market. You still get the fuel of the pearl clutching members crying blasphemy, while also appealing to more relaxed believers. Double whammy of engagement right there
@@TheDukeofDorks you don't get the point do you? To have your god in a world with other gods, inherently negates the theology you believe in. No hindu that even remotely believes in their religion is gonna accept a premise where jesus or zeus exists besides their god, hence why i said "anyone" that is anyone that believes in their faith even a little bit will accept other gods existing without being a disbeliever in the first place.
@@surgeonsergio6839 With all due respect, that's an incredibly narrow view of how people treat their beliefs. Some absolutely do get that anal about it, that there can be NOTHING else apart from what they believe is true. But plenty more treat it as a source of personal comfort, a mental anchor to rely on in trying times, or a source of community to find others like them. How their beliefs are depicted doesn't matter, how they're depicted alongside others is irrelevant, because nothing can change what their beliefs already are. There's several people in this comment section mirroring exactly that! I'm not even saying you're inherently wrong, logically the point is sound, but religion isn't logical in the first place. That mental leap is something people constantly go through, it's a fundamental aspect of living alongside people with different beliefs.
@@TheDukeofDorks But that is how people treat and have treated their beliefs. They fought bloody wars over even the most minute things. Lets say for arguments sake that people are ok with it. But that's not what the actual theology says, so to really see whether or not people would find it ok, you have to see what the books Actually teach. And if the people's views go against it, that Doesn't mean that religious people are ok with it, that just means people that don't truly believe or are ignorant about it do so. Not the ones that're actually faithful. And the idea that religion is mainly for comfort and reliance with due respect is a secular/modern christian idea about religion. For most people that follow a religion it’s the form of absolute truth. So what you're ultimately left with is either non religious people will accept it and the religious ones will reject it. In short what it boils down to is, "hey guys are you ok with us making a world where your precious doctrine is false?" the answer will be no, religious people will use logic when it suits them. They simply wont see it as appreciation when they'll break it down like that.
@@TheDukeofDorksI am a hindu and I would have no problem with a hindu pantheon, since in this game the gods grant your favor and miracles and do not directly intervene Or get killed thus this game would be perfect to implement hindu mythology into. But the point of Abhramic faction being superior to rest will probably be dropped, in another way you would have to add an extra category of gods called something like supreme beings this would include beings like Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva, Devi Kali, the Abhramic God, Chaos, etc
I want the Celtic pantheon.... So bad. It fits better with the original. China is so off the wall and doesn't make sense, I kinda hated them adding that. If they add India I'm out.
Abrahamic are the strongest stats wise? Did you ever even read what Hindu gods are capable of in their mythology? Jesus and Yahweh can go packing. I mean if you want to see them as the strongest, that's your bias and nothing else.
I mean if we want to get that pedantic almost every pantheon has some level of "This deity forms the backbone of all creation". Multiple have it built into their lore that they are incapable of losing, there's cosmological "This is the root of everything" like Chaos in Greek myth. That's a rabbit hole you never stop falling down. Trying to have power debates is pointless of that manner is pointless, as a person's deity is however powerful they believe them to be. The stats thing I chose in this particular idea are based on A) The game being made in a region dominated by Abrahamic worship, it's easier to get that through if they look good, and B) Historically wise I'd argue they "win" the most. Bullying out other religions, largely swaying the most political power, having the most followers etc. It's one of the only concrete things that can be measured in regards to myth and religion, and combined with the first point it's enough for me to feel justified in the choice.
Honestly, I really hope that they add more and more Civs into the game. Maybe not too much to make the game a bit overwhealming. Or perhaps adding campaigns with new civs as well, But Im really glad they're redoing the Chinese Expansion. That was a shit show I had to uninstall it because it just broke the game lmao.
Must be the inaccurate and improper depictions of your faith's deities by the mangaka and the PowerPoint slideshow makers. You knew of the gods' limits to directly intervene with the affairs of mortals; they opted the avatar options in certain situations since avatars have a fraction of their already immeasurable power to defeat some threat or tell a moral lesson to a group of people. Chief creation god Brahma should be explored more often in the avatars topic.
I've talked for ages about wanting to dive a bit deeper into more "Serious" subjects, cultural depictions generally being the example I use. Today, we're gonna start dipping our toes into this realm of content. Is it a good idea? Potentially not! Is it an interesting idea, abso-fucking-lutely, and I will happily go through some growing pains to develop the communication skills necessary to discuss these sorts of topics with ease. Not a replacement for lighter videos, but I'll definitely do comparably serious content in addition to that, I think how media shows off culture/myth/religion is fascinating and I love talking about it.
With that in mind, I have a request. I clearly don't subscribe to the internet's "rubber-gloves" approach to topics like this and I don't ever intend to. It's dumb, it destroys terminally online people's conflict management skills, it overvalues offense far past what the average person will care about, and amplifies the severity of discussions around these topics by creating an air of "These are supposed to go poorly". They're not, people are just bad at it. So my request is to not shy away from the discussions. Try to stay civil of course, but if something feels wrong say so, if there's a further direction to be pushed don't be afraid to brainstorm. I'll be more active in both moderating and discussion in the chat for this one, along with any other similarly styled videos in the future, because I want to get better at communicating around these subjects too. Try developing that skill, it can help tremendously throughout ones life!
Also go play Age of Mythology, its a 10/10 game.
Your video is so underrated!!!!! Thank you for all the effort!
I'm Jewish (as in the ethnicity, not the religion) and I wanted to note that your idea of giving demons to the other factions actually lines up with the fact that demons in the Hebrew Bible were likely meant to represent other religions, so it makes sense that the opposing factions can use the biblical interpretation of demons from that perspective (although the connotations are not great).
Also, it's not that important but in the context of Judaism it doesn't make that much for angels to be some kind of overpowered units since they're literally just meant to be messengers of God that don't have any agency beyond that.
As a Christian it was genuinely shocking to me when I learned about things like Golems or The Leviathan when I was much older. Even within practice of the religion the more fantastical side of Abrahamic myth is swept under the rug. Also, as a writer, it genuinely is extremely frustrating the amount of moralistic backlash if I ever try to include aspects of Native American mythology and people saying that I'm not 'allowed to.' There's a lot of protectiveness over these ideas, but there's also not resources to learn. Researching Native American myths online is really difficult and primary sources are tough to find, and the stranger side of Abrahamic myth is kept hidden a lot of the time.
Humanity's stories shouldn't be gatekept. We should be able to learn from them, build off them, or even make God of War or Hazbin Hotel style bastardizations of them.
Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that the Leviathan and a beast known as "Behemoth" were casually mentioned in passing somewhere in the Old Testament. Fitting those in somewhere would be fun to see.
It's especially important given the alternative. Because things like Hazbin Hotel are going to exist regardless of people's feelings towards their existence, the irreverence is a major selling point! If you hold back from other depictions of Abrahamic myth, if you hold back from trying to further explore Indigenous myth, you are ONLY left with the stuff that's either outdated or flat out doesn't care how people feel about the original stories. And frankly that's just a lesser timeline than the one where creators can explore these aspects of culture.
I get that reception with Chinese myth and history, when I am not Chinese, and that DEEPLY annoys me.
You know what I say? "Yes I can. What are you gonna do?"
ngl a AoM christian/Abrahamic civ would be amazing, with myth units like seraphs, cherubins, demons, golems, dragons, tarasques, jinns, leviathans and behemoths
@@matheusbianquincera3104especially if you went with the Catholic version where you could have the Saints as heroes/minor God's.
Or you could choose from the Apostles. I think Judas would have to be excluded however due to the whole Betrayal thing though.
that abrahamic faction sounds so amasing !
i wuld love to see a full "pantheon" idea video about it.
greate job man !
You killed it with Abrahamic faction, i HAVE NEVER HEARD OR THOUGH SOMETHING LIKE THIS, ITS A MAGNIFICENT IDEA
After watching this, it's making me realize how little I actually know about the world around me. So, I'm a Christian, one who still has flaws to overcome mind you but hey that's human nature, life is a spiritual war, gotta keep moving forward and rise above your demons.
I have always wanted to know about other cultures, religions, political standings, etc so I can relate to someone else's experience. I think there's some people that kinda have this "If they aren't apart of my group/religion/culture/ political leanings then I dehumanize/hate them". I forget who said this, but I remember one guy on a YT Short saying that "Once we stop talking about our differences, violence breaks out" and I think that's true if you look back at history. So, I want to learn as much as possible outside of my little scope to avoid that.
Which leads to this video. I think this would be a great introduction for people like me who want to learn cultures and religions but maybe are a bit overwhelmed or maybe they get burnt out or any number of reasons. This could be a great gateway for that. And it being a good game on top of all that is just the cherry on top!
I wish this was a thing, and I'll try to give AoM a shot (even though I suck at those types of games lol) - Akonu
I watched this entire video on TV, then spent a painful amount of time looking for it on my phone as I did not remember the title or your channel name.
And I just want to say: your ideas are awesome. *AND SOMEONE, GIVE THIS MAN A VIDEOGAME DEVELOPMENT STUDIO!* and also an infinite budget.
Seriously though, your idea for an Abrahamic faction is so unique! I can think of literally nothing else like it!
God that statue of Jesus pointing finger guns slays me.
Anyway, a fascinating deep dive into the potential of a game I’ve only heard of in passing. It’s also compelling to really think about how we treat mythologies and religion in not only how they’re actively practiced but how they are portrayed to those that don’t know or aren’t interested in them. Personal stuff but I’ve been raised Christian my entire life, so seeing archangels and prophets fight against the Greek pantheon is very compelling (and funny enough a weird mirror into actual history). I also want it treated with the level of respect and competency that the other pantheons get because the amount of dedicated research taken to ensure those are implemented properly while having some fun is really great! The implementation of Jesus himself as the final wild card that uses an alternate win condition by forgiving his enemies and befriending them is both comical and very fitting. Plus giving the biblical characters the spotlight is excellent, as it’s arguably the most compelling aspect of the Bible stories. Seeing Moses, David, or Elijah get some screen time and not just Jesus and His disciples is an excellent way to open up those tales to those who otherwise might not be familiar with or interested in them. A common thread in those stories is seeing how God works through people, and therefore inspires others to do the same. Having their abilities be titled “God’s Power” or something along those lines would be a seemingly minimal UI touch up that would go a long way in better representing those figures. If this team were able to nail those concepts and implement them into compelling gameplay loops and strategies, sign me up, it’s going up on the shelf with Prince of Egypt and VeggieTales as Christian media that I get on my knees and thank the Lord that they exist.
I say this because I think people are starving for that media that represents their beliefs as you brought up in that video. Having the show where everyone pokes fun at the creator for having the cast say fuck repeatedly to the point where it gets childish be the current pop culture representation? Nah. Show me Moses parting the Mediterranean Sea to help Jesus make the breakaway to befriend a Fire Giant or Hydra. I’ll take that any day.
Alright mini-rant over. When are they dropping the Flying Spaghetti Monster with the Pastafarian pantheon? I’d co-main that.
I think it would be cool if they used the cthulhu mythos as a pantheon to spice things up later when they make more, the mod sold me on how cool and fun it was(the eldritch mod).
Definitely something I'd only want to see later down the line, after they've got a mix of older myth and legend. But I agree, it'd be fascinating seeing a more modern day mythos like lovecraftian horror
I would love a Celtic, a Persian and a Babylonian mythologies in game.
Especially Irish Celtic myths being the most well-documented and preserved, and famous in pop culture like Mystic Knights of Tír na nÓg (from the creators of Power Rangers many years ago), the Fate series and also SMITE.
Sorry, Gallic Celts
Yo Duke, since you asked us to not shy away from criticism, I thought I should share what I think is sort of a problem with the Abrahamic idea. For starters I wanna say that I think it's a very cool concept, and mechanically it's brilliant (I mean, I think so, RTS isn't something I know much about), but I feel like it sort of leans too far into portraying that religion as the "correct" one? In your design not only is the biblical God much more powerful than any other ones, to the point even his angels and prophets are stronger than "full" gods of other pantheons, but by default all of the opponents of this faction will be in league with the devil, which paints them as pretty villainous and is something I think some people belonging to those cultures would take offense to. Jesus' ability being to convert others also feeds into that, I understand why it's there but I feel like that does sort of portray the faction as being ultimately correct, if even their opponents eventually agree with that (and also puts them on a moral high ground because their ultimate game plan is to convert the enemies rather than slay them).
I should say I'm not extremely familiar with Age of Mythology (I played the one on the Nintendo DS when I was really young, and that's it) so maybe all of this fits the tone, and I don't know if it's something many people would take massive issue with, but I thought I should share the thought anyways.
Thats Some Good Points
Conceptually I completely agree, it's a fundamental issue that was constantly bugging me. In a vacuum I'd prefer a more traditional RTS faction, but the game isn't being made in a vacuum, it's being made in the modern day. Using that bridge metaphor I had in the video, I don't think it would be wise to immediately jump to the desired destination. Just like how Shiva was the de-facto best god in Smite when he arrived, buttering up the respective religion helps tremendously in making the translation into a video game smoother. I didn't cover Hindu in the video, but I'd try to find some way to do the same there for similar reasons.
All that said, you are right, it's worth taking another pass at. Perhaps the demons are neutral altogether on the map, only actively attacking the Abrahamic player? Or make it a barter system, the opponent can tribute that neutral demon AI to gain units from them. Something like that, I'm sure there's a sweet spot somewhere in there.
@@TheDukeofDorks yeah i feel ya. I think not making the demons allied with others is a pretty good change already
I would be interested in Japan and the Philippines being new factions after China is added, it would allow for a more interconnected campaign for the new factions. Both are also fairly well known mythologies as well.
For a hypothetical second game though, I would like Norse, Celtic, Greek, Egyptian and Mesopotamian. Plus since Egypt and Greek have Mesopotamian units already it would be fairly easy to justify roster changes for those two.
Ultimately I view Age of Mythology as more of campaign game and would much rather factions be built in a way that would allow them to have the best campaign possible then for multiplayer.
Absolutely agree on the campaign front, this game is at its strongest when these factions are interacting. Tale of the Dragon was flawed for a ton of reasons, but I think one of the biggest was the fact that the Chinese storyline was completely divorced from everything else. No Greek centaur searching for the head of an Egyptian god with the help of surprise Norse allies, it's just Yin and Yang again.
Though I wouldn't want geography to stop them. This is mythology, it'd be easy to come up with some mystical bullshit solution to allow global factions to keep interacting with each other.
okay to make a comment after watching the video, I think that the concepts shared are neat! Some of these faction ideas are genuinely so cool and unique. As a person who has went and made an RTS faction in SC3 Terran, these sort of ideas are just incredibly rad and I wish I was able to come up with ideas this cool. The idea of a faction that inherently buffs the enemy by summoning things on their side is just... so cool. It's really cool.
I would also find it very fascinating as to how these sort of factions would be tied into campaign content. The storytelling potential is just... absurd, though admittedly I do think that would be the most likely target of outrage if it were to include major world religions. Imagine a version of SC2's In Utter Darkness that is essentially just a partial retelling of Revelations, except that you're working together with all the factions to try and fight it! or, i don't know, something similar to that. There are probably plenty of doomsday myths that I don't personally know, and that would be neat to see.
God can you imagine the stories that could be told? Mirror Thrall encountering the Tauren for the first time, except here its Kastor and the goddamn 12 tribes of Israel.
Obviously SO MANY ways it could go wrong, but there must be sweet spot somewhere in there. I don't think it would be the worst thing for an important artifact to be hidden within the walls of Jericho, so our heroes help protect the Abrahamics walking the cities perimeter so they can take it down. Veggietales did it with Jericho using slushies as weapons, surely there's room for more interpretations there.
I'm currently working with some friends on a mod suite for Civilization V based on adding less western centric resources (among other things including a less western centric tech tree & a belief pack taking inspiration from more religious branches/sects) so I'm glad folks are pushing forward on this type of topic discourse wise. Speaking as a political science degree holder with an interest in history and two friends studying in the field of anthropology/indigenous studies so at the risk of dunning-krugering myself I think I can offer an interesting outlook here.
Note that I don't think this necessarily conflicts with the crux of what you are saying but is something that a dev would need to keep in mind:
A lot of core baseline game design tropes by virtue of originating in the 1970s - 1990s predominantly culturally homogeneous dev environment (though there are notable overlooked exceptions like Jerry Lawson, Nasir Gebelli, & Muriel Tramis) of America's Silicon Valley, France, and/or Kyoto, Japan are built off a ton of humanistic, patriarchal, & capitalistic outlook on the world. Not saying this inherently good or bad but it does present challenges in the matter of adapting certain cultures respectively. Sid Meier's Civilization core 4X formula, for example, is based on a very America circa 1980 something pulp history understanding of the world that often romanticizes stuff like say the America settling of the "untamed" frontier or British colonization of Africa the "dark continent" built around European sedentism based societies as default. Given RTS games have their historic origin in war game table top scene I imagine similar issues might exist there but RTS games are a blind spot for me so I'll concede I might be wrong there. One could argue to make a truly respectful game play implementation for a polity like the Cree tribes in ether genre is something that would ether requiring reevaluating foundational tropes of their existence or at least being aware of what assumptions are at the core of game rules. Again not impossible but requires more work than something you can graft on to a pre-existing game mold IMO. You'd almost need the strategy game equivalent of a deconstructionist genre work like Watchmen to pull it off in my opinion. The closest thing we have as a model for how this might work is the deconstructionist city builder Terra Nil which emphasizes environmental management to subvert assumptions of infinite growth & sprawl present in that genre's base game rules.
EDIT: Thinking on it more folks might get confused by my cognitive dissonance with modder for Civ V context and that last paragraph so I'll elaborate a bit more there. Way I see it it is one thing for modders to do it for both fun and the purposes of moving the overton window of the subject pre-Columbian cultural representation in gaming on limited resources & say a big company like say bigwigs at Microsoft or 2K inadvertently spreading misinformation just because they are too cheap to hire consultation or risk adverse to break formula.
Cool
I do agree on principle, the fundamental cultural differences are a massive roadblock when implementing indigenous cultures. You are correct that similar issues exist in RTS, the Age of games arguably moreso due to being built off of how Eurasian societies evolved over the years. Archaic age through to imperialism, basing gameplay benefits from moving through that timeline, it's not a framework indigenous cultures mesh with well. Though, I don't know if I'd view that as enough to bar implementation altogether. I can see the complaints surrounding the Cree faction in Civilization 6, I'm sure there must be ways to do so better in that games framework, but I also don't see such efforts being realistic in our modern gaming environment. If a faction takes too much extra work that faction would just be scrapped. So if the choice is an off-kilter implementation of the Cree or no Cree at all, I think having them is still the better option, it's still a positive step in the right direction. An improved depiction of Poundmaker, a (shallow) show of respect to highlight a culture on the same level of others, introducing more people to the phenomenal music the Cree faction possess, etc.
I hope this is coming across the way I want it to, I'm not trying to handwave those concerns to justify the current state of the industry. I just think that purely positive implementations aren't quite feasible yet, at least in the current development culture, and that I think the messier inclusions like the Cree in Civ 6 still ultimately move the dial in a positive direction. And I do hope that developers would recognize that and keep these cultures in their games, at bare minimum they give a stronger platform for Indigenous voices to call out for something better. And maybe that will help make those purely positive implementations possible down the line? Really the crux of the whole issue is a lack of gameplay formats that DO gel with non-capitalistic cultures, I would love to see the direction Terra Nil is poking in be further expanded upon in the future.
Thanks for the comment, it's exactly the kind of quality I was hoping to get from a topic like this one.
Ah! I see what you did there Duke, coming in with a Big Brain Move by just shadow-dropping a video as a Quote-Unquote ‘Submission’ before ending today’s Persoective… Very Clever~
SUBSCRIBED!!!!! YOU ARE AWESOME
Factions I'd love to see, Aztec or maso Amercian, Celt, Slavic, Japan, Oceania's ( peoples like Maori, Hawaiian that kind of people) Philippines/ south East Asia. Because dame they gut a lot of weird shit people are sleeping on myth and cryptid wise. Africa south/ Central
And maybe something for native Americans and aboriginal. Just not a lot of their mythology creatures have been preserved in the same other ancient peoples have.
I wouldn't really want to see any of the monotheism gods or abramic.the factions should stick with pathionions.
This sounds neat.
This game appears to be based on mythology. True?
False
This ones actually Math
I would like a sub-saharan civ for one of the expansions
Hebrew DLC with moses when?
Christians should have a timer that at one point invokes sunday, in which their villagers are not allowed to work and their soldiers not allowed to fight. If you succesfully get through sunday without working and fighting, you will gain favor.
I don't know if a game like this could get away with soldiers (Unless angels take their place?), but a sabbath timer where villagers stop working and generate favor instead is absolutely brilliant.
@@TheDukeofDorks How I mechanically think it should work, is let's call it "sabbath" timer should be a visible clock that cycles around with 1/7th or so of the cycle be sabbath. When you reach the sabbath, your workers will cease working and generate favor for their idle time. Idle soldiers will do the same. They will trickle favor for idling. It is not always possible to have everyone idle, but those who can will trickle favor for you during the sabbath.
If you are pressured by the enemy and badly need economy, there should be an option to click on the clock to cease sabbath for all workers, and that will return them to work. Just as a quality of life thing.
The best part of the Christian faction is the fact that I dont know what idea I want more, Metatron or Jesus
Christianity probably gonna have the gimmick of not having mythic Unit with No Major and Minor Gods but Churches and Virtues.
Major Churches would be Catholic, Orthodox and non-Chalcedonian while virtues are tied to certain Saints.
They could borrow a lot of mechanics from aoe3 like home city shipments replacing Powers and the ability to train 5 units consecutively or having the best Cavalry in the game to offset their weakness in not having any mythic Unit.
Fantastic video, for an amazing game! Would love to see more AoM content!
Going to be honest with the whole 'offended' point. Only one I ever saw in regards to Hindu being used (happened in smite) is when people (who I'm not even sure play said game, and am almost sure weren't Hindu themselves) got offended about one of the Hindu goddesses (Kali I think it was) being practically naked in game. Despite her being commonly depicted thus in Hindu depiction. As for the entire point about people being offended by part of their religion being depicted, I point to christianity and literally any depiction of heavenly angels and hellish demons/devils, those are so common these days and nobody cares that its not faithfully represented in the best light... Okay not nobody, but those who do are often seen as being way too into it even by fellow christians. Same with Djinns (... think its muslim. And I'm going to butcher this as my knowledge of Islam is tiny), nobody really cares or speaks out about their demons being depicted as scantily clad elemental babes/strongmen. Or at least I've NEVER heard of any controversy about such which wasn't part of feminists screeching about how girls in video games should be ugly because it otherwise encourages rape and unrealistic expectations. Hell Naga ARE Hindu, yet never heard a word of protest about them being used whereever. Or the Rakshasa. Or any version of elephant people who are probably based off Ganesh(a?). Honestly I just think the entire 'point' is incredibly overblown for what it is, and used as justification for decisions it really shouldn't be.
I see stuff like it all the time, but I probably also seek it out more than most, it's something I find fascinating. In the grand scheme of things the overlap between video game player and religious practitioner isn't the largest, you have to venture outside of video game spaces to find that kind of disdain. Absolutely does exist, it just rarely makes headlines anymore because the problems people have had with how games treat stuff like angels vs. demons haven't changed since... what, the original Doom I think? Arguably since Dungeons and Dragons!
Either way I do agree that it is absolutely overblown, the internet puts wayyyyyyyyy too much weight behind a single voice crying foul about something. But I do still think it's worth keeping in mind if only for appearances sake, it makes it easier for the more reasonable majority of practitioners to drown out those who refuse to accept it. The goal isn't to make something a believer is indifferent towards, the goal is to make something a believer might think is actually pretty cool!
People used the excuse of the detection of the goddess, but the actual problem was that
1) The goddess was contrable by a player
2) She could be killed in game.
Very well said and thoughtful. There are so many civs and myths that have yet to be explored in this series.
Although, I wonder... what happens if the monotheistic civ fights another faction of the same civ. You've planned this out with the monotheistic civ fighting outsiders, but it's already a set precedent that opposing teams can be of the same civ. Greeks fighting Greeks, Egyptians fighting Egyptians, and Norse fighting Norse. That was all there in the original game campaign.
Thus the result of that would be two monotheistic teams fighting each other. Both sides aided by angels and demons? Both would combat heavenly units and hellish opponents. A conflict that ceases to be black and white despite the presence of icons that represent an objective divide between good and evil. A strange sight to behold. But this game is about myths being objectively true in the world. So, it's not the oddest thing we've seen here.
I would love to see it included in the game.
If they did Abrahamic I would like them to have the 'convert enemy' mechanic that has been used for priests in AoE and simmilar. Tweaked of course. It's both an 'Age game' staple, a unique way to play and it fits the theme, missionaries is a big thing, as is converting, done a bit differently but still.
Ok I personaly would like to see Celtic mytholgy getting represented here. I would eat that up seeing that getting more love and exploration.
Also I know Antrtcia is like well un inhabited and junk but we do kind of have some myths surrounding it.~ I think an Antartic Mythos facton would be something incredable because it would have to be something completely differant from the normal that leans into some pretty forgotten folk lore and pop culture. Yeah there be no natzis to worry abotu here but you could take from the mythos of hallow earth and there being being a secret sociaty using crystals as like super computures, yuo could have dinosaurs! I know AtlanTIS HAS ALREADY BEEN TACKLED so it would kind of be pointless to use Antaric for that Myth, but then again you could still havee Atlantion on it maybe trying to start a new Atlantis of something, you could have the Ejyptions set up here. because ancient pyrimids except eJYPTIONS AREN'T THE ONLY ONES TO do that but again you could give this place it's verry own civilization and myth units could be baseed on anything believed to be at the South pole! from theories about aliens being their to literaly mythicals monsters people depicted as being at the north pole on old maps.
There's room to play around...
I also have an alternate suggestion. We are seeing the return of Age of Empires and Ege of Mythology but we're also seeing the return of an old favorite of mine Empire Earth now being called soemthing else or being recreated or havign a spiritual successor called Eprie Eternal or something. Basicly Empire Earth was like Age of Empires on steroids with alot more ages to advance into, from the cave man age into like the space age >:3
Sooo what am I suggesting? well if Empire Earth is like Age of Empires on steroids why not give Age of Mytholgy the same treatment! Not only that but also anyone rememebr Comand and Conquer and miss that? from generals to Red Allert! Why not make a mega love lett too all of these! Something that is like Empire Earth but to Age empires 1,2,3,4 Age of Mythology, Empire Earth itself and the Command and Conquyers series!
To much? ok let's tone it down for now and propose for two differant projects oen that leans more towards givign Age of Mytholgy the Empuire Earth Treatment and the Other giving Command and Conquers that treatment~ So how would this work?
well for Age of the Mytholgy perhaps the answer could be called Legend Eras of Mythos!
For Command and Conquerer on one hand you had a modern world taking on a guy who was wanting to harvest some new mineral and become a new super power in the modern day, you also had Red Alert that involved an a time machine and an alternate timeline dealign against the soviats. you also got Generals which focused more on a parrelel of current conflices with china and the Middles East. Basicly The Answer would obviosly have to involve not only asking what if but also wouldn't it be cool if? SO WE COULD maybe dive not only into the interoduction of new rescources but also time travle and other cool scenarios that involves differant timelien and factions that come from them. The End result could literaly be some kind of colonies being set up on a timeline of Earth that never had huimanity or where something became eof humanity. Allowjng for new world powers to try and make claims to this new world. possibly some losing their foot hold in the timeline they came from. Not sure what you'd call that one though. Maybe...TimeLine's Banner?
Cool
@@thesmilyguyguy9799
Thanks ^^
I kind of see the main time Line as more of a dot surrounded by ripples. Time is like ajet stream constantly moving us forward in the 4th dimensions but that's the mani form of time we understand is Liniar time. but when you move away from the center of the ripples the force forwad in time is less powerful and esier to resist the further out you go. but father out from the center are alternate timelines.
Anyways which idea would you want to talk about? Legend Eras of Mythos? or Time Line Banner?
@@megareavermickeybot7985 i Just Think Your Ideas Are Cool I Dont Have Any Sorry
@@thesmilyguyguy9799 Alright , it's ok buddy ^^. but I'm always happy to share ideas around and to exchange ideas too.
Glad you like my ideas though ^^
@@megareavermickeybot7985 :)
Coming from someone who wants to eventually dive into how I view religion and stuff similar to it like spirituality in my works, I LOVE THIS! Legit the only reason why I want to stay away from stuff like Heaven is simply due to me not wanting to tell people what morals to follow and how to live their lives...... but I'm still including Pagan deities in my verse because I like the idea of them being angels who wanted to fuck around with the humans and ended up forming religions as a result. Actually, now I am kinda curious about doing a story centered entirely around how a religion forms, especially when you're like me and have a triangle of power systems to work with...... will keep in mind. Side note but that Jesus idea is genius and I LOVE videos like this. Good luck with college king!
There is mod on Aztec already. Perhaps they could take it from that guy.
I learn lots about every mythology while playing aom. I also read the info.
That speech about religion towards the end beautiful
1:23 well the "vikings", (which is a stupid term as it's commonly used. It's like calling all Romans the gladiators. Rant out.) weren't wearing horned helmets. However the people living in Scandinavia during the Bronze Age where Greek and Egyptian mythology takes place did wesr horned helmets. At least according to contemporary iconography. So in a weird way it's actually accurate for norse people to wear horned and winged helmets in a mythological setting in the Bronze Age.
Thank you for mentioning sub-saharan africa and even pre-columbian natives as potential candidates, as these do have a highly intrueging candidates IMO. But I would choose them after the three best bets IMO, i.e. Mesoamerica, India and Mesopotamia.
But I would refrain from using an abrahamic religion for two reasons: 1. Abrahamic religions do not have the same pull factor as an entire pantheon IMO.
And 2. Abrahamic religions are an offshoot of canaantic and mesopotamian religions. E.g. the Leviathan is most likley an analouge of Tiamat. And the flood myth is taken from mesopotamian myths too, as is the creation of the world in 7 days. Indeed IIRC Abraham even comes from there.
Also in the Old Testament itself we see a transition from polytheism to henotheism to monotheism. Many gods-> primary god+extras-> only one god. E.g. where El and Yahwe are sometimes written as different entities. Or how in Exodus its not argued that the other gods are fake. their priests can still do the same stuff moses can. But the egyptian gods are much weaker than moses deity and so are their wonders. And people who spoke to god, still worshiped other gods, including King Solomon. In addition to many other parts. Most likley proper monotheism was created during the babylonian exile, where the israelite exiles radicalized their faith.
Anyhow, having Assyria or Babylon as proper cultures would cover a lot of stuff of abrahamic cultures may have, whilst also having a proper intrueging pantheon and a stronger identity in an AoM game.
Your 2nd point is just flat out correct, but I would push back a bit on the 1st, just because I'd argue the reason an Abrahamic "Pantheon" doesn't have the same pull is more just that the older, more mystical sides of things haven't been explored. Which yes directly feed into your 2nd point that those aspects largely came from other cultures, but I still feel a hunger to see at least one showcase of the more fantastical side of Abrahamic myth.
Babylon would go so hard though, I wanna see a Gilgamesh centered campaign so badly.
The aborginial dreamtime myths would be really cool to see in AoM.
LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
This Vis Has Some Of Your Best Ideas In It And I Love It
For the love of gods, no nomadic civs
THIS IDEA ABOUT THE ABRAHAMIC FACTION IS SOMETHING I HAVE NEVER HEARD, O MY GOD WHAT A GOOD IDEA
I never liked AoE and have little interest in this spinoff but I will listen to the whole video because this channel is underrated.
That's a shame, because AoM is by far the most fun and unpredictable game of the series. You should try it out. 😃
what about just go beyond, like making fictional creatures and let them fight these earthly mythology entities,
like imagine arkantos fighting Lovecraftian monster like cthulhu and etc, so we are not locked behind what we know from history (It's myth after all)
The ideas and imagination is endless and limitless
can wait h.p love craft gods in Age of Mythology retold hope gods vs eldritch mods do that
Need to sendt this vid to the team brother
I feel like instead of the major gods being angels which I don't think Christians would ever worship, it would be better to do father, son and holy spirit which are more like different aspects of god. the holy spirit would be about healing, buffing and tech, the son would be about human units and father will be about god powers. I also think it would be cool to incorporate historical figures as minor gods such as Richard the lionheart, Charlamagne, Joan of arc etc. instead of myth units they get unique human/hero units such as crusaders and paladins
I would go this route for a purely Christian/Catholic faction if the time period was a little further forward in the future. But given the more archaic setting, Ancient Egypt and Greece and all that, I think a more generalized Abrahamic approach works better. Especially since if a more Christian specfic approach was taken I'd want equal measures of Islam and Judaism for fairness, which just takes up a lot of space.
That said, could be an excellent set-up for a sequel!
@@TheDukeofDorks then you could prolly do the three prohets as the major gods jesus, Moses and Muhammad, but that would be even more controversial
That's fine and all, but the main reason it won't work is because the very premise itself would acknowledge the in game existence of other pantheons/gods than the one/ones you believe in making their claims of being the only true gods/god false, which would be blasphemous to any person with any religion.
I don't think its wise to make broad statements like "Any person WOULD feel this way." Some would, sure, and the internet does like to cave to the most abrasive spokesperson of whatever group is speaking. But that's both ridiculous and counterintuitive, it completely ignores the wider scope of a group that is indifferent to internet discourse and actively fuels depictions that lean on being as blasphemic as possible. Engagement is all that matters online, if a group pushes a creation that's actively trying to show them in a positive light they will only be left with creators who couldn't care less about their feelings.
Which is probably why many creators wisely recognize this and do it anyway. Japan especially doesn't care, Moses is gonna part the Red Sea with a Beyblade and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
Hell I'd go so far as to say it's an untapped market. You still get the fuel of the pearl clutching members crying blasphemy, while also appealing to more relaxed believers. Double whammy of engagement right there
@@TheDukeofDorks you don't get the point do you? To have your god in a world with other gods, inherently negates the theology you believe in. No hindu that even remotely believes in their religion is gonna accept a premise where jesus or zeus exists besides their god, hence why i said "anyone" that is anyone that believes in their faith even a little bit will accept other gods existing without being a disbeliever in the first place.
@@surgeonsergio6839 With all due respect, that's an incredibly narrow view of how people treat their beliefs. Some absolutely do get that anal about it, that there can be NOTHING else apart from what they believe is true. But plenty more treat it as a source of personal comfort, a mental anchor to rely on in trying times, or a source of community to find others like them. How their beliefs are depicted doesn't matter, how they're depicted alongside others is irrelevant, because nothing can change what their beliefs already are. There's several people in this comment section mirroring exactly that!
I'm not even saying you're inherently wrong, logically the point is sound, but religion isn't logical in the first place. That mental leap is something people constantly go through, it's a fundamental aspect of living alongside people with different beliefs.
@@TheDukeofDorks But that is how people treat and have treated their beliefs. They fought bloody wars over even the most minute things. Lets say for arguments sake that people are ok with it. But that's not what the actual theology says, so to really see whether or not people would find it ok, you have to see what the books Actually teach. And if the people's views go against it, that Doesn't mean that religious people are ok with it, that just means people that don't truly believe or are ignorant about it do so. Not the ones that're actually faithful. And the idea that religion is mainly for comfort and reliance with due respect is a secular/modern christian idea about religion. For most people that follow a religion it’s the form of absolute truth. So what you're ultimately left with is either non religious people will accept it and the religious ones will reject it. In short what it boils down to is, "hey guys are you ok with us making a world where your precious doctrine is false?" the answer will be no, religious people will use logic when it suits them. They simply wont see it as appreciation when they'll break it down like that.
@@TheDukeofDorksI am a hindu and I would have no problem with a hindu pantheon, since in this game the gods grant your favor and miracles and do not directly intervene Or get killed thus this game would be perfect to implement hindu mythology into.
But the point of Abhramic faction being superior to rest will probably be dropped, in another way you would have to add an extra category of gods called something like supreme beings this would include beings like Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva, Devi Kali, the Abhramic God, Chaos, etc
If you like this and you like turn based strategy too, check out a game called Dominions 6 which is pretty awesome.
For the algorithm
I want the Celtic pantheon.... So bad. It fits better with the original.
China is so off the wall and doesn't make sense, I kinda hated them adding that. If they add India I'm out.
What about Lovecraftian Myths ? That would be crazy
Abrahamic are the strongest stats wise? Did you ever even read what Hindu gods are capable of in their mythology? Jesus and Yahweh can go packing.
I mean if you want to see them as the strongest, that's your bias and nothing else.
I mean if we want to get that pedantic almost every pantheon has some level of "This deity forms the backbone of all creation". Multiple have it built into their lore that they are incapable of losing, there's cosmological "This is the root of everything" like Chaos in Greek myth. That's a rabbit hole you never stop falling down.
Trying to have power debates is pointless of that manner is pointless, as a person's deity is however powerful they believe them to be. The stats thing I chose in this particular idea are based on A) The game being made in a region dominated by Abrahamic worship, it's easier to get that through if they look good, and B) Historically wise I'd argue they "win" the most. Bullying out other religions, largely swaying the most political power, having the most followers etc. It's one of the only concrete things that can be measured in regards to myth and religion, and combined with the first point it's enough for me to feel justified in the choice.
Honestly, I really hope that they add more and more Civs into the game. Maybe not too much to make the game a bit overwhealming. Or perhaps adding campaigns with new civs as well, But Im really glad they're redoing the Chinese Expansion. That was a shit show I had to uninstall it because it just broke the game lmao.
im hindu and i still hate how they banned record of ragnorock in india
Must be the inaccurate and improper depictions of your faith's deities by the mangaka and the PowerPoint slideshow makers. You knew of the gods' limits to directly intervene with the affairs of mortals; they opted the avatar options in certain situations since avatars have a fraction of their already immeasurable power to defeat some threat or tell a moral lesson to a group of people. Chief creation god Brahma should be explored more often in the avatars topic.
Creaking Skull
some of this ideas are way too ambitious for this devs, but im ready to be proven wrong.
Chinese, Indian, heck even Roman Pantheon.
Roman pantheon is too similar to the greek one, unless you're talking about a Roman Catholic pantheon, of course.
An Israelite Campaign would be fun if it's done right.
A native american civ whether Aztecs or whoever is what I wanna see the most
1:26 I Feel Called Out Hare
If they add native Americans, I’d prefer seminoles
Could add romans or Celtic gods
It would be cool if they put Muhammad in but let’s be honest they wouldn’t dare, very convenient and selective “diversity and representation”.