Man... I keep watching all these videos and always assumed they were all in the hundreds of thousands of views and I never bothered to look that you undeservingly have so few views! You should definitely be more popular + I just subscribed, thanks for the great content
Its nice to know that even great masters like Beethoven went back and studied the very basics of composition well after he already published some great music
Dear Dr. Gran, If you only knew how thankful I am to you for your information on music composition and anything that is connected with it! Unfortunately I do not have an opportunity to attend university (I am a mom with two kids who are my greatest priority). So I have to self educate myself and finding info can be hard. So your logical, step by step videos allow me to learn the material better to aid in my biggest dream to become a composer. I am crying thinking how much composition means to me. Maria, 43 y.o. housewife.
THANK YOU, thank YOU ... for these VERY HELPFUL AND CONCISE RECORDINGS, I call IT 'COUNTERPOINT IN A NUTSHELL' :) for me these are very valuable messages! Regards.
Hi, It is very nice to have such good materials from you to learn counterpoint. I am a student and learn from your short videos of explaning counterpoint. There is no pleanty teachers out on you-tube to show this i'snt easy kind of material. Also Alan Belkin has som good material on you-tube. So very thanks for it to both. What i miss on your cannel is a guide like "learning Composition". "How set I chords to a given Melody". And how can I set chord after chord after chord. In classical style. So very thanks for your videos. Christian
Mr. Gran, I'm doing my exercises and I have found myself in the following situations: 1. Can I begin on a rest at the very first note, like in previous 2:1 exercises? 2. Can I use "embellishing tones" when I compose _below_ the CF? How to? 3. Can I use "upside-down" embellishing tones like 3-5-3 or 3-6-3?
A brief summary: Section 1 - Learn 3:1 with Beethoven --- TRIPLE METER - downbeat and two upbeats --- BEATS - Downbeats and upbeats treated the same as 2:1 --- VOICE CROSSING - happens at the high points --- CONSECUTIVE LEAPS - no recovery; instead, Beethoven uses embellishing tones (only 6-3-6 or 5-3-5 - tones of a triad) --- ALBRECHTSBERGER'S CRITIQUE - no problem with B's voice leading - A's critique is fixing the implied harmonic nature of the voices 1) raised leading tone (established D minor - avoids suggesting F major); A's stepwise motion change avoids an augmented 4th with the raised leading tone 2) embellishing tone of 5-3-5 to improve harmonic rhythm; B's 5-6 consonant neighbor tone implies a chord change on every note; A's change keeps the harmonic rhythm steady Section 2 - The Dissonant Neighbor Tone --- STEP TO AND FROM IN OPPOSITE DIRECTION - basically prolongs a single consonant interval; DNT slow down the speed of exercises --- UPPER NEIGHBOR vs LOWER NEIGHBOR - accentuate contrary motion (Fux didn't use the dissonant neighbor tones making 3:1 superfluous - later theorists changed this) --- HERMAN ROTH EXAMPLE - DNT on the final beat of a measure is both DN and Consonant suspension - not wrong, but not permitted for the moment --- Summary: 1) Consonances on any beat 2) Dissonant passing tones on beats 2 or 3 3) Dissonant Neighbor tones on Beat 2 4) Embellishing Tones allowed (5-3-5 or 6-3-6) 5) Cadential Formulas - Above use 1) 6-5-6-8 or 2) 3-5-6-8 - Below use 1) 5-4-3-1 (uses DPT) or 2) 3-4-3-1 (uses a DLN) Section 3 - Homework - see video Rhythmic Reduction Please let me know if you have suggested improvements or clarifications! Hope this helps!
When it comes to the contrast between Beethoven and albrechtsberger, I agree that it's not necessarily in error of voice leading, perhaps albrechtsberger was demonstrating his own interpretation of tonal Center. While Beethoven went from natural to a sharp, demonstrating his own way of hammering home the emphasis of the tonic/ tonal Center
I agree. I didn't mention it in the video, but Gustav Nottebohm speculated that Albrechtsberger's second change (in measure seven) may have been chosen in order to avoid outlining the tritone between the B-flat of the previous measure and E. He also thinks the first change was to avoid "leaving the key too early."
Hi, Jacob! Your videos are amazing! What do you think about using escape tone on beat two on 3:1 counterpoint exercises? It becomes to much free counterpoint at that point?
Great question! For my taste, yes, that is a little too much. I don't feel that escape tones really form their own fundamental category in the same way that passing tones, suspensions, and neighbor tones do. They are usually best understood, IMO, either as incomplete neighbor tones (where the resolution is omitted in free style) or they are an arpeggiation that anticipates the next chord. Plus, using them would make the strict exercises too easy!
es raro, pero cometiste un "error", en los anteriores vídeos siempre que ponías un ejemplo y las notas del contrapunto no llenaban el resto del compas ponías los silencios, en el min 11:04 no lo hiciste :( El único objetivo de este comentario es fastidiarlo, pq realmente estos vídeos son lo puto mejor que existe, lo admiro :)
There is an error in the analytic diagram at 16:50 between the given melody's final G and F: the diagram marks the G between F and A as a dissonance over G
I thought counterpoint came first yet harmony knowledge would be a benefit for understanding the content in this video. I watched this and came back to it after 2 years of harmony class and found it much more helpful. It seems that harmony governs counterpoint quite a bit so I dont understand why they teach these exercises only talking about the succesion of harmonic intervals without talking about harmony when clearly here the current harmony is governing the CP.
I agree, there is always a certain chicken-and-egg problem when it comes to what to teach first. But in general I think counterpoint helps to explain harmonic progression more often than vice versa.
@@JacobGran The problem I have is one of "harmonic syntax". Many times just writing intervals and ignoring harmony you get less goal directed melodies because the harmonic syntax isnt taken into consideration. As a test I sometimes like to consider what harmonies my CF create with my CP line and many times the chord progressions they outline arent ideal ones. Do you know what I mean? You could be writing a V IV iii progression with your two lines which doesnt make for very good progression. Does this ever happen to you or do you always get a good hamonic progression with your CP?
Love the videos! Although I need to point out that the picture you picked for Herman Roth is actually Lee Strasberg playing the fictional character Hyman Roth from the Godfather 2!
Are there any rules on what to do after the embellishing tone bar , e.g. if I have a bar of 5-3-5 embellishing tone, am I allowed to progress by skip from the last note of that bar in either direction or only one of the directions?
Very informative video, and very well put together, thank you so much. I know this is an older video, but I was curious about when perfect consonances are permitted; for instance, if the final beat of a measure is a perfect octave which then moves to a perfect fifth by contrary motion, would this break any rules? Thank you for the help!
Good question. The short answer is that it depends. Keep in mind that most textbooks don't cover 3:1 counterpoint as an independent type of exercise, so the rules for this species of counterpoint is heavily borrowed from second (2:1) and third (4:1) species. In general, when approaching a perfect consonance on the downbeat (even if it is in contrary motion) we don't want to leap in the top voice while moving by step in the lower voice. So for instance, if we went from an octave C-C to a perfect fifth D-A, some authors would consider this an error known as a quinta battuta ("beaten fifth"). The bass moved by step, but the top voice leapt. This would also count as a beaten fifth if we had approached from a different interval (like if we had leapt from a tenth, C-E inwards to the fifth). I have never heard a simple reason why this should be an error, but many authors censure it and I agree it is not very elegant. In most situations there will be a superior alternative. Keep in mind that this is a problem only in two-voice counterpoint or between outer voices in chordal writing. That is the only type of downbeat perfect consonance to be avoided, so for instance moving from the octave C-C to a fifth E-B would be perfectly fine, since the top voice moved by step.
Hello! That hadn't occurred to me. There isn't a standard way of rhythmically reducing a counterpoint exercise; it is either done by Schenkerians on entire compositions or it isn't done at all. One option is to remove them, since the primary note is prolonged throughout the measure. But another option that I like would be to show it as a third voice aligned with the other two on the downbeat, perhaps inside a parenthesis. That is because, conceptually, the embellishing tone behaves like an arpeggiation through a three-voice chord.
Why is the dissonant neighbor on the 3rd beat considered a consonant suspension if it goes to E before going to F on the 1st beat of the next measure? Wouldn't it be considered a consonant suspension only if the E was not there?
If we look at the analytic notation at 12:47, and imagine the neighbor note E removed, then the tied Fs would form a consonant suspension straddling the two measures. In other words, a dissonant neighbor on beat three only works if it prolongs a note that is consonant with the CF in both measures which conceptually depends on a combination of third and fourth species. Again, it happens plenty in real music, but since I needed to define some parameters for this exercise that are “strict” 3:1, and since I can’t rely on Fux to provide those rules, I think the neighbor on beat two is the “pure,” or strict version of the concept.
Can I leap over the melody with an embellishing tone? for instants, if the CF is on an E can I go from the G note above to the B (or C) note under and back?
Great question: it would count as an embellishing tone, but it would not be used in a strict counterpoint exercise since the fourth is dissonant. It could occur in free composition as a prolongation of a 6/4 chord.
@@JacobGran Thanks! I'm assuming these intervals don't have to be in the exact order of 6-3-6 and 5-3-5, do they? For example would 3-6-3, and 3-5-3 work just fine? My second question is that I'm a bit confused when using embellishing tones with a lower counterpoint. If the CF note is C for example, would the embellishing tones be F-A-F in the case of 5-3-5, and E-A-E in the case of 6-3-6?
Good question. The sixth and third above a CF ^2 would be ^7 and ^4, respectively, which form an augmented fourth, which is a dissonant melodic leap in strict counterpoint (of course this kind of cadence could happen in real music). If the exercise is in a minor key, and you intentionally don't raise the leading tone, then the dissonant leaps are avoided, but we really should raise the leading tone at a cadence.
@@yoavshati You mean a cadence like 6 - #3 - 6 | 8 ||? I suppose that would be possible in the context of free composition and there may even be good examples of it. But in a strict counterpoint exercise, the only chromaticism we should use is the leading tone and sometimes B-flat in Dorian or Lydian.
That is an interesting thing to think about. From what I know, Carnatic classical music is usually an ornate melody accompanied by a drone, so the emphasis is much more on the beauty of the single melody than on polyphony, which is what the Western classical tradition has focused on.
You should try it! If you look at 16:51 the rhythmic reduction represents the accompanying melody without any ornamentation, just substitute the more complex ornaments of Indian music and let the voice leading of the raag dictate the overall melodic flow. For a cantus firmus you find a gat from a solo tabla concert where the sarangi is playing a very basic melody that emphasizes the taal/rhythm while providing a basic outline of the raag. I've been a long time student of Hindusthani music and that's how I would approach it... :)
Hi Jacob. how can the dissonant neighbor on the last beat be a suspension if it is an E? an E going to F is not a suspension since it needs to be an F! the note before the E is F but the E is lodged in between so by definition it ruins the preparation.
Right, the point is that a dissonant neighbor on the final beat is ambiguous. In the example at 12:48 the dissonant note E is not the suspension, it is a lower neighbor that prolongs the note F. When the neighbor occurs on beat two of the measure, the prolonged consonance is repeated on beats 1 and 3 of the measure (dashed slur in the analytic diagram at 9:21). That prolonged consonance is basically a first species relationship with respect to the cantus firmus. Another way of saying this is that if we were to create a rhythmic reduction of a 3:1 exercise, measures with a neighbor on beat 2 could be simplified into a first species skeleton very easily. But when the neighbor occurs on beat 3, the prolonged consonance straddles two measures (the dashed slur connecting the Fs in the diagram at 12:48) and it needs to form a consonant suspension from fourth species. This configuration could certainly happen in real music, but it is needlessly complicated for a strict exercise.
Ok let me see if I understand. You are saying that even though the E comes between two Fs, you are still able to call that a suspension? In other words the preparation is being decorated by the neighbor E?
That is a good question. In my experience we use the words "duple" and "triple" to describe the organization of beats within a measure, and "simple" and "compound" would be the equivalent two-fold or three-fold organization of subdivisions of the beat within each beat. So for instance 3/4 time is a simple triple meter, while 9/8 time is a compound triple meter. But there may be other terminological traditions that I am not familiar with.
Can somebody explain the second and third to last notes in the melody? I sort of get they are sharp to emphasize the sense of cadence in a minor key but is this an actual rule? When should it be applied? Does this count as use of melodic minor?
@@JacobGran assuming they mean Beethoven's melody, what would the answer to their question be? Im trying to end an example in G minor with a 6,5,6,8. The upper voice reads: F,E,F,G with the Es currently being flattened. Should both the first and last E in this cadence be naturals?
@@louisrorison8457 The penultimate measure would be F# - E - F#. Think of it like first species counterpoint, where we would have the note F-sharp as the leading tone through the whole measure. The F-sharp in this case is "prolonged" through the measure by E natural on beat two, behaving like a consonant lower neighbor. If you insist on not using the leading tone, then the E can be an E-flat as a dissonant lower neighbor below F. There aren't many explicit rules are for this kind of exercise, because very few authors address it.
Great video thank you. I noticed that the cadential formulas when composing below a given melody end on a unison instead of an 8th. Is there a reason for this?
No special reason; a unison is basically the same as an octave. We can only use the unison when composing from below, though, because the cadence needs to be approached in contrary motion.
These videos are RUclipss best kept secret. 🙏🏻🤗👍👂
Man... I keep watching all these videos and always assumed they were all in the hundreds of thousands of views and I never bothered to look that you undeservingly have so few views! You should definitely be more popular + I just subscribed, thanks for the great content
Its nice to know that even great masters like Beethoven went back and studied the very basics of composition well after he already published some great music
As a classical music student this is super helpful, thank you very much!
Glad it was helpful!
These are the most usefull music theory videos i ever seen
Thank you, there are more on the way!
These videos really help me as a beginner. thank you very much!
Happy to hear that!
Dear Dr. Gran, If you only knew how thankful I am to you for your information on music composition and anything that is connected with it! Unfortunately I do not have an opportunity to attend university (I am a mom with two kids who are my greatest priority). So I have to self educate myself and finding info can be hard. So your logical, step by step videos allow me to learn the material better to aid in my biggest dream to become a composer. I am crying thinking how much composition means to me. Maria, 43 y.o. housewife.
Bravo, Maria! Of corse, thank you Dr. Gran. Great content indeed!
Almost 3 years later I finally know enough music theory to understand this entire fricking video
Thank you so much for taking the time to make this invaluable contribution to free learning. Wishing you many blessings good sir!
You are very welcome!
Thank you for your videos ! They are very informative
Glad you like them!
THANK YOU, thank YOU ... for these VERY HELPFUL AND CONCISE RECORDINGS, I call IT 'COUNTERPOINT IN A NUTSHELL' :) for me these are very valuable messages! Regards.
Hi,
It is very nice to have such good materials from you to learn counterpoint. I am a student and learn from your short videos of explaning counterpoint. There is no pleanty teachers out on you-tube to show this i'snt easy kind of material. Also Alan Belkin has som good material on you-tube. So very thanks for it to both.
What i miss on your cannel is a guide like "learning Composition". "How set I chords to a given Melody". And how can I set chord after chord after chord. In classical style.
So very thanks for your videos.
Christian
Mr. Gran, I'm doing my exercises and I have found myself in the following situations:
1. Can I begin on a rest at the very first note, like in previous 2:1 exercises?
2. Can I use "embellishing tones" when I compose _below_ the CF? How to?
3. Can I use "upside-down" embellishing tones like 3-5-3 or 3-6-3?
Good questions; Yes to all three!
@@JacobGran Yipee! 🤩
Thank you so much, man!
A brief summary:
Section 1 - Learn 3:1 with Beethoven
--- TRIPLE METER - downbeat and two upbeats
--- BEATS - Downbeats and upbeats treated the same as 2:1
--- VOICE CROSSING - happens at the high points
--- CONSECUTIVE LEAPS - no recovery; instead, Beethoven uses embellishing tones (only 6-3-6 or 5-3-5 - tones of a triad)
--- ALBRECHTSBERGER'S CRITIQUE - no problem with B's voice leading - A's critique is fixing the implied harmonic nature of the voices 1) raised leading tone (established D minor - avoids suggesting F major); A's stepwise motion change avoids an augmented 4th with the raised leading tone 2) embellishing tone of 5-3-5 to improve harmonic rhythm; B's 5-6 consonant neighbor tone implies a chord change on every note; A's change keeps the harmonic rhythm steady
Section 2 - The Dissonant Neighbor Tone
--- STEP TO AND FROM IN OPPOSITE DIRECTION - basically prolongs a single consonant interval; DNT slow down the speed of exercises
--- UPPER NEIGHBOR vs LOWER NEIGHBOR - accentuate contrary motion (Fux didn't use the dissonant neighbor tones making 3:1 superfluous - later theorists changed this)
--- HERMAN ROTH EXAMPLE - DNT on the final beat of a measure is both DN and Consonant suspension - not wrong, but not permitted for the moment
--- Summary: 1) Consonances on any beat 2) Dissonant passing tones on beats 2 or 3 3) Dissonant Neighbor tones on Beat 2 4) Embellishing Tones allowed (5-3-5 or 6-3-6) 5) Cadential Formulas - Above use 1) 6-5-6-8 or 2) 3-5-6-8 - Below use 1) 5-4-3-1 (uses DPT) or 2) 3-4-3-1 (uses a DLN)
Section 3 - Homework - see video
Rhythmic Reduction
Please let me know if you have suggested improvements or clarifications! Hope this helps!
The thing is. Beethoven had to learn and practice. People think you need talent. In part yes. But then you must learn you're craft.
As my favorite, I admit I put him on a pedestal. Thinking he came out of the womb being able to make better music in his sleep than most of us.
Great video!
When it comes to the contrast between Beethoven and albrechtsberger, I agree that it's not necessarily in error of voice leading, perhaps albrechtsberger was demonstrating his own interpretation of tonal Center. While Beethoven went from natural to a sharp, demonstrating his own way of hammering home the emphasis of the tonic/ tonal Center
I agree. I didn't mention it in the video, but Gustav Nottebohm speculated that Albrechtsberger's second change (in measure seven) may have been chosen in order to avoid outlining the tritone between the B-flat of the previous measure and E. He also thinks the first change was to avoid "leaving the key too early."
Hi, Jacob! Your videos are amazing! What do you think about using escape tone on beat two on 3:1 counterpoint exercises? It becomes to much free counterpoint at that point?
Great question! For my taste, yes, that is a little too much. I don't feel that escape tones really form their own fundamental category in the same way that passing tones, suspensions, and neighbor tones do. They are usually best understood, IMO, either as incomplete neighbor tones (where the resolution is omitted in free style) or they are an arpeggiation that anticipates the next chord. Plus, using them would make the strict exercises too easy!
@@JacobGran thank you!!!
es raro, pero cometiste un "error", en los anteriores vídeos siempre que ponías un ejemplo y las notas del contrapunto no llenaban el resto del compas ponías los silencios, en el min 11:04 no lo hiciste :(
El único objetivo de este comentario es fastidiarlo, pq realmente estos vídeos son lo puto mejor que existe, lo admiro :)
There is an error in the analytic diagram at 16:50 between the given melody's final G and F: the diagram marks the G between F and A as a dissonance over G
Yes indeed! Well spotted, thank you.
I would have thought on the cadance, especially a perfect one you want to use the 7th on the rise to the I chord to emphasis the V7 I.
I thought counterpoint came first yet harmony knowledge would be a benefit for understanding the content in this video. I watched this and came back to it after 2 years of harmony class and found it much more helpful. It seems that harmony governs counterpoint quite a bit so I dont understand why they teach these exercises only talking about the succesion of harmonic intervals without talking about harmony when clearly here the current harmony is governing the CP.
I agree, there is always a certain chicken-and-egg problem when it comes to what to teach first. But in general I think counterpoint helps to explain harmonic progression more often than vice versa.
@@JacobGran The problem I have is one of "harmonic syntax". Many times just writing intervals and ignoring harmony you get less goal directed melodies because the harmonic syntax isnt taken into consideration. As a test I sometimes like to consider what harmonies my CF create with my CP line and many times the chord progressions they outline arent ideal ones. Do you know what I mean? You could be writing a V IV iii progression with your two lines which doesnt make for very good progression. Does this ever happen to you or do you always get a good hamonic progression with your CP?
Love the videos! Although I need to point out that the picture you picked for Herman Roth is actually Lee Strasberg playing the fictional character Hyman Roth from the Godfather 2!
He footnotes it in the video
Are there any rules on what to do after the embellishing tone bar , e.g. if I have a bar of 5-3-5 embellishing tone, am I allowed to progress by skip from the last note of that bar in either direction or only one of the directions?
Very informative video, and very well put together, thank you so much. I know this is an older video, but I was curious about when perfect consonances are permitted; for instance, if the final beat of a measure is a perfect octave which then moves to a perfect fifth by contrary motion, would this break any rules? Thank you for the help!
Good question. The short answer is that it depends. Keep in mind that most textbooks don't cover 3:1 counterpoint as an independent type of exercise, so the rules for this species of counterpoint is heavily borrowed from second (2:1) and third (4:1) species. In general, when approaching a perfect consonance on the downbeat (even if it is in contrary motion) we don't want to leap in the top voice while moving by step in the lower voice. So for instance, if we went from an octave C-C to a perfect fifth D-A, some authors would consider this an error known as a quinta battuta ("beaten fifth"). The bass moved by step, but the top voice leapt. This would also count as a beaten fifth if we had approached from a different interval (like if we had leapt from a tenth, C-E inwards to the fifth). I have never heard a simple reason why this should be an error, but many authors censure it and I agree it is not very elegant. In most situations there will be a superior alternative. Keep in mind that this is a problem only in two-voice counterpoint or between outer voices in chordal writing. That is the only type of downbeat perfect consonance to be avoided, so for instance moving from the octave C-C to a fifth E-B would be perfectly fine, since the top voice moved by step.
@@JacobGran Gotcha, thank you so much!
Although in real sixteenth century counterpoint the upper neighbour was very restricted (legitimized by a following longer note and/or suspension).
11:43 for a second I thought I was listening to Raindrop by Indigo Jam Unit...
When will you do a 3,141592....:1 counterpoint youtube video ?! 😊
Hi, Jacob! Should “embellishing tone” be removed in “rhythmic reduction”？
Hello! That hadn't occurred to me. There isn't a standard way of rhythmically reducing a counterpoint exercise; it is either done by Schenkerians on entire compositions or it isn't done at all. One option is to remove them, since the primary note is prolonged throughout the measure. But another option that I like would be to show it as a third voice aligned with the other two on the downbeat, perhaps inside a parenthesis. That is because, conceptually, the embellishing tone behaves like an arpeggiation through a three-voice chord.
@@JacobGran Ok.Thanks a lot ：）
Why is the dissonant neighbor on the 3rd beat considered a consonant suspension if it goes to E before going to F on the 1st beat of the next measure? Wouldn't it be considered a consonant suspension only if the E was not there?
If we look at the analytic notation at 12:47, and imagine the neighbor note E removed, then the tied Fs would form a consonant suspension straddling the two measures. In other words, a dissonant neighbor on beat three only works if it prolongs a note that is consonant with the CF in both measures which conceptually depends on a combination of third and fourth species. Again, it happens plenty in real music, but since I needed to define some parameters for this exercise that are “strict” 3:1, and since I can’t rely on Fux to provide those rules, I think the neighbor on beat two is the “pure,” or strict version of the concept.
at 14:44 there is an error in the interval analysis on the eighth downbeat
Can I leap over the melody with an embellishing tone? for instants, if the CF is on an E can I go from the G note above to the B (or C) note under and back?
Lee Strasberg as Hyman Roth.
Thanks for the lesson! At 4:35 would a 6-4-6 interval pattern, which implies a 2nd inversion chord, count as an embellishing tone?
Great question: it would count as an embellishing tone, but it would not be used in a strict counterpoint exercise since the fourth is dissonant. It could occur in free composition as a prolongation of a 6/4 chord.
@@JacobGran Thanks! I'm assuming these intervals don't have to be in the exact order of 6-3-6 and 5-3-5, do they? For example would 3-6-3, and 3-5-3 work just fine?
My second question is that I'm a bit confused when using embellishing tones with a lower counterpoint. If the CF note is C for example, would the embellishing tones be F-A-F in the case of 5-3-5, and E-A-E in the case of 6-3-6?
These are incredibly helpful - can I just ask, would a cadential formula 6-3-6-8 over a falling tone in the c.f. be incorrect voice-leading?
Good question. The sixth and third above a CF ^2 would be ^7 and ^4, respectively, which form an augmented fourth, which is a dissonant melodic leap in strict counterpoint (of course this kind of cadence could happen in real music). If the exercise is in a minor key, and you intentionally don't raise the leading tone, then the dissonant leaps are avoided, but we really should raise the leading tone at a cadence.
@@JacobGran Ah thank you - I should have seen the tritone, I was just being slow :/
@@JacobGran Would it be too far outside the key to raise ^4? Double leading tones aren't common, but they did exist
@@yoavshati You mean a cadence like 6 - #3 - 6 | 8 ||? I suppose that would be possible in the context of free composition and there may even be good examples of it. But in a strict counterpoint exercise, the only chromaticism we should use is the leading tone and sometimes B-flat in Dorian or Lydian.
Sir , Can we apply counterpoint rules in Carnetic (Indian) Music) ??
That is an interesting thing to think about. From what I know, Carnatic classical music is usually an ornate melody accompanied by a drone, so the emphasis is much more on the beauty of the single melody than on polyphony, which is what the Western classical tradition has focused on.
@@JacobGran sir😍🙏🙏🌷
You should try it! If you look at 16:51 the rhythmic reduction represents the accompanying melody without any ornamentation, just substitute the more complex ornaments of Indian music and let the voice leading of the raag dictate the overall melodic flow. For a cantus firmus you find a gat from a solo tabla concert where the sarangi is playing a very basic melody that emphasizes the taal/rhythm while providing a basic outline of the raag. I've been a long time student of Hindusthani music and that's how I would approach it... :)
@@bobfrog4836 Sir ,,Good Morning , love to hear 😍🙏🏽🙏
Hi Jacob. how can the dissonant neighbor on the last beat be a suspension if it is an E? an E going to F is not a suspension since it needs to be an F! the note before the E is F but the E is lodged in between so by definition it ruins the preparation.
Right, the point is that a dissonant neighbor on the final beat is ambiguous. In the example at 12:48 the dissonant note E is not the suspension, it is a lower neighbor that prolongs the note F. When the neighbor occurs on beat two of the measure, the prolonged consonance is repeated on beats 1 and 3 of the measure (dashed slur in the analytic diagram at 9:21). That prolonged consonance is basically a first species relationship with respect to the cantus firmus. Another way of saying this is that if we were to create a rhythmic reduction of a 3:1 exercise, measures with a neighbor on beat 2 could be simplified into a first species skeleton very easily. But when the neighbor occurs on beat 3, the prolonged consonance straddles two measures (the dashed slur connecting the Fs in the diagram at 12:48) and it needs to form a consonant suspension from fourth species. This configuration could certainly happen in real music, but it is needlessly complicated for a strict exercise.
Ok let me see if I understand. You are saying that even though the E comes between two Fs, you are still able to call that a suspension? In other words the preparation is being decorated by the neighbor E?
♍️❤️🎶🎵🎶
🙂👍
You've been calling the subdivision of the pulse into twos and threes duple and triple. Would this not be simple and compound?
That is a good question. In my experience we use the words "duple" and "triple" to describe the organization of beats within a measure, and "simple" and "compound" would be the equivalent two-fold or three-fold organization of subdivisions of the beat within each beat. So for instance 3/4 time is a simple triple meter, while 9/8 time is a compound triple meter. But there may be other terminological traditions that I am not familiar with.
Can somebody explain the second and third to last notes in the melody? I sort of get they are sharp to emphasize the sense of cadence in a minor key but is this an actual rule? When should it be applied? Does this count as use of melodic minor?
Do you mean the last three notes of Beethoven's melody, the melody in the thumbnail, or the melody that I show at the very end?
@@JacobGran assuming they mean Beethoven's melody, what would the answer to their question be? Im trying to end an example in G minor with a 6,5,6,8. The upper voice reads: F,E,F,G with the Es currently being flattened. Should both the first and last E in this cadence be naturals?
@@louisrorison8457 The penultimate measure would be F# - E - F#. Think of it like first species counterpoint, where we would have the note F-sharp as the leading tone through the whole measure. The F-sharp in this case is "prolonged" through the measure by E natural on beat two, behaving like a consonant lower neighbor. If you insist on not using the leading tone, then the E can be an E-flat as a dissonant lower neighbor below F. There aren't many explicit rules are for this kind of exercise, because very few authors address it.
Great video thank you. I noticed that the cadential formulas when composing below a given melody end on a unison instead of an 8th. Is there a reason for this?
No special reason; a unison is basically the same as an octave. We can only use the unison when composing from below, though, because the cadence needs to be approached in contrary motion.
Hi i know u uploaded this video a long time ago but i did a home work only in A major can you check my work.
I think that's the wrong Herman Roth, that looks like the godfather
Godfather II exactly🤣
Beethovens version sounds more catchy but I can see how Albrechtsbergers version is better objectively