I don't even know how many times I have watched this movie, so it was great for me to really go FULL SWORD NERD on the fights. Great editing as always!
The Pikes.....you have to look at the bigger picture (pun somewhat intended?), the Uruk Hai where out to meet and fight the Rohan army, a cavalry army, so pikes we carry, even tho in the end the end up assaulting a fortress. Who's to know the fortunes of war?
Pikes make perfect sense because the Urk hai had to walk 200 miles across open terrain to get there. Inside a nation that is completely dominated by horse mounted warriors.
@@jimmybobby4824 because they also work decently well for pushing infantry through a breach (shields might have helped....and why didn't the elves keep shooting??)
@@thodan467 "only a Sith deals in absolutes" with a wide enough breach they definitely could be, and the movie shows that exactly. The only real issue with that specific part was the elves should have never stopped shooting, but once they ran out of arrows thing would play out pretty much exactly as they did
Matt, leave the guy with the torch alone. He had leukemia and the Orc-A-Wish Foundation helped him achieve his dream. It's one of the nicest things Saruman does in the whole back half of the Third Age.
Its like the scene in 300 except rather then just send the guy away and have him join the other side Saruman is like "You cannot serve on the ladders but you CAN be our olympic torch bearer, its a position of great honour! "
Actually, the scene makes perfect sense to me. Saruman clearly knew that when the powder went off, everyone in the mine would be killed. So, he had all of his miners withdraw because they were highly trained specialists that he could use later. Then, once his valuable miners were safely clear, he sent a more expendable berserker in to set off the charge.
Because while they are larger and stronger, Uruk-Hai are still Orcs. You don't want them accidentally setting off the explosives before they are properly placed.
@@lordpuki1375 That would have been another consideration, especially after watching Grima Wormtongue, who is much smarter than any orc, nearly setting it off by holding his torch near to see it better.
While it's never directly, explicitly stated, there is some logic in the siege going for an immediate attack rather than attempting to starve the defenders out; it's mentioned that there's a back way out of the keep through the mountains. The goal of the attack is to kill everyone inside, a prolonged siege would give them time to evacuate. There's also the possibility of wanting to end it before reinforcements show up, which, reinforcements showing up is the thing that ultimately costs them the battle.
In the book it is additionally said that Helm's Deep had a great store of food prepared so it would take a while to starve them out (even with the number of civilian refugees who found shelter there): "Behind us in the caves of the Deep are three parts of the folk of Westfold, old and young, children and women,' said Gamling. 'But great store of food, and many beasts and their fodder, have also been gathered there.'"
@@fantasywind3923 The amount of ressources doesn't matter. There's lots of historic examples where the attackers besieged the defenders for weeks, months, sometimes even years - the vikings besieged Paris for over a year before backing off. In the battle of Alesia the romans besieged the gauls for months even though they knew that additional gauls where gathering to relief the city and break the siege. What they did instead of attacking was building defences of their own in both directions, towards the city and towards the other direction as well. They knew that the approaching army had no time to besiege the roman defences because they where trying to rescue the already starving people in the city - and the romans where successfull, they defeated the approaching army defending their own fortifications. In the battle of Corfe Castle 30 defenders defeated an attacking force of 350, loosing only 2 men in the battle. The only reason why the Uruk Hai did not besiege Helms Deep is because they're Uruk Hai - they lack the patience to besiege the fortress and also don't value the lives of their troops. What is missing in the movie version of the battle is that the attacking force was not all Uruk Hai though - there was also a sizeable force of human warriors from Dunland.
@@HH-hd7nd Caesar got very lucky at the Battle of Alesia. What he did was brilliant, but he was very nearly totally annihilated with all his men. Pompey would have returned a few years later with 10 legions or so to conquer Gaul anyway, but his rival would have been very dead.
Concerning pikes: Yes, against the walls of Helms Deep those sticks are worth nothing. But if the warlord commanding the orc/Dunlending army expects some crazy Rohirrim thing, some on-horse-sally possibly, then the pikes are just OK.
Another thing to remember that the movies don't really make clear is that the Uruk-hai army was meant to challenge Theoden in the field, which would make the pikes invaluable against the primarily cavalry army that Theoden was expected to use, as well as the infantry that had been guarding the Isen Ford. It was only their ineptness that led to Theoden reaching fortifications that made the pikes less useful.
@@matthewhubbard1200 Having the pikes is not the issue. Deploying them in front of the walls in stead of leaving them in the baggage train is the issue.
Actually this is simply due to the movie. In the books the ork army fought against the humans before all of them reached the fortifications. This isn't really shown in the movie.
Literally came here to say this! The Rohirrim are ALLLLL ABOUT horses/cavalry, and indeed, they DO make a sortee from the keep at the end of the battle! Furthermore, Eomer and Gandalf show up with a whole mess of cavalry. Seems like reasonable foresight too me - and if they hadn’t been blinded during Gandalf and Eomer’s charge, they very well may have done an awful lot of damage to them with said pikes.
Fun trivia note: if you look closely at the uruk-hai crossbows in this movie, they're lever-action. This was a conscious choice by the props department to emphasise Saruman's possession of an R&D department.
Also most of these orcs dont have the finesse or patience to actually learn to use normal bows in close-up combat, a trigger-action weapon is perfect for them.
Should be noted that Saruman was under immense time pressure to present his occupation of Rohan as a fait accomplis to Sauron (assuming he is about to walk over Gondor) since anything less than being a formidable power in himself would lead to being punished for his treachery; so the non drawn out seige has military reasons, not just cinematic ones.
You also have Theoden asking Aragorn, "So much death...What can men do against such wreckless hate?" Implying that an army of men would not be willing to sustain such losses in a single attack during a siege. However, because the orcs are willing to sacrifice far more than men, they can take a fortress in a single very bloody assault.
Orks don’t March with a retinue of cooks or saw bones they were not forged to wait out a siege but to destroy everything before them without hesitation and before they turn on each other.
Also rapid escalades with ladders were attempted in medieval sieges, if there was a huge time constraint, or if the commander was especially bold, and if that assault failed you could then settle down for a long siege.
Something that is a great bit of thematic narrative is the technology that each group has. Most of the human side is limited to bows, chainmail and wooden shields (representing the "old" ways) while the orcs representing industrialization have crossbows, plate armor, metal shields, and explosives.
That's because the Elves, Wizards and Dunedein keep the West at a pre-industrial, fuedal technology level, artificially sustained by magic and overseen militarily by powerful vassals like Gondor and Rohan.
Aragorn is from the line of the Dúnedain, thus physically stronger than the average man, among other gifts. So dwarf tossing should not have been too strenuous for him lol
The TL;DR of this comment section is just that all this stuff makes sense within the lore and this guy is talking about it as if it’s supposed to be accurate, seems a bit silly to me
@@Pman8362 This happens a lot, some expert reviews a movie and critiques it and doesn't assume once that there may be an explanation in the lore, and then the comments are just repeating the same thing.
For a bit of context about the charge down the causeway. In the books there were no women and children (or elves) at the Hornburg. They weren't hoping to defeat the Uruks, their charge out at the end was a hail Mary to escape the valley.
@@pride2184 It wasn't really ment to work in the story either. Their option was die in the fort or take their chances on an escape. Either decision is pretty bleak. It was a juiced up Gandalf deus ex machinaing that saved the day.
‘Behind us in the caves of the Deep are three parts of the folk of Westfold, old and young, children and women,’ said Gamling. ‘But great store of food, and many beasts and their fodder, have also been gathered there.’
@@pride2184 when the only choices are have everyone die behind the walls of a keep, or die in a calvary sally and possibly have a few make it through to escape on horseback, you tend to take the one where someone might make it out to rally the rest of the military. They knew they were going to probably all die, but with the calvary sally they thought that maybe some would be able to get away and they might possibly kill more uruks with that as well.m It was a last ditch attempt. Even if they took the mountain path escape route, they wouldn't get far before the uruks would catch them, because the Uruks were bred to be heartier then men and would run without need of rest until they had chased them down.
14:39 Aragorn is as strong as a handful of normal men, since he's a Dunedain, descended from the Numenoreans. He's more than 2 meters tall (hence Strider) and he's 87 years old.
The issues with the horses is explained in lore, at least partially. They're not regular horses as we would know them, but rather far tougher and more capable. It's kind of hinted at by the existence of Shadowfax in the films.
We all suspend disbelief to enjoy this type of film and accept that there is a fantasy explanation for everything, because it's a parallel universe with it's own rules. On the other hand, watching this video, we accept that Matt's role here is to deliberately look at the scenes and comment on whether they would or could have happened that way in the time when these weapons and tactics were used in reality. Don't we?
The reason why the torch bearer and the bombs were separated so much is that the "gun"powder used was extremely sensitive to heat, there is a scene in which Wormtongue came to watch Saruman while he was preparing it and he reprimanded him for bringing a candle to look at it. Also the bombs were brought in stealthily, the torch isn't
14:38 scarily strong, in fact Aragon is so strong that Sauron himself feared him, not just cause of the sword he wields but because of his physical strength and prowess wielding the sword, he's mentioned as the hardiest man of his time.
Boromir was implicitly hardier... Sauron fears the full power of Aragorn. The will to wrest control of the palantir of Minas Tirith and Orthanc from Sauron. The martial abilities as well, but it's a total package type of deal.
16:09 Gimli had blown the Horn of Helm Hammerhand, which is literally an acoustic weapon that mentally scrambled the urukhai and effectively made them punch drunk. This is why they were able to charge out at all lol
Also, the sun had come up, even though unlike conventional orcs, the Uruk-hai could move through daylight, it did hamper them. You can see this very clearly when Gandalf calls on the light of the Istari at the same time the sun goes up over the hills in the east and the Uruk pike formation is blinded and stunned by this sheer beam of light, allowing Éomer's cavalry to charge in almost unharmed.
@@Vidhur Orcs could move through daylight, they just hated doing it. Thus it could lead to low morale and was avoided where possible. They still did it when necessary, though, such as to repel Faramir’s charge at Osgiliath. Uruks were bred specifically to not have that weakness to sunlight, and in Fellowship of the Ring, the Uruk raiding party had no issues running and fighting in the afternoon.
The reason the Orc Attack immediately is that they heavily outnumber the Defenders(Saruman knew Theoden only had a couple hundred men), the Defender has a Host of Cavalry roughly 4000 strong roaming the land only a couple days away, and Saruman needed to eliminate Rohan as a possible Ally to Gondor for Sauron's attack on Osgilliath. Helms deep happens on March 3rd, and Osgilliath happens on March 12. Saruman is engaging in a a Coordinated Strike, if he decapitates Rohan now, it leaves him available to flank Osgilliath 9 days later from the western side of the River.
@@rustyshacklfur2637 Yes the defenders inside the fortress are closer to 1000, than 300, but the main Force in the battle is actually Erkenbrand's Eored, which arrives along with a Thousand Foot INfantry accompanied by Gandalf.
We got these epic semi-accurate battle scenes in early 2000... And then 10+ years later we got some Elves Rodeleros jumped on top of perfectly formed phalanx formation instead of attacking from the flanks and also utilize their famed archer regiments.
@@vicdark8807 What?? I'm not sure what you're say he improved in the next trilogy, but it was NOT the battle scenes. Legolas grabs onto a bat's leg as it's flying by and hangs upside down, shooting a bunch of running orcs square in the head as the bat weaves throughout the battle field in a swarm of bats, and he then manages to kill the bat and somehow perfectly lands with no bruises or even a hair out of place. He also is standing on a bridge, the pillar holding up the bridge breaks so the stone bridge crumbles, as it's falling down the canyon Legolas slows time, and moves in real time jumping up the falling stones and makes it back up to the hill, leaps onto the orc's head and shoves his blade through his brain. But yeah, much more accurate than the battle scenes that a expert says is mostly correct, and the things he said weren't can be explained by the lore most of the time.
So the Orcs with the Pikes have them because they were prepared to fight the Roherim which are naturally a people who favor Calvary However the Roherim went to Helms deep making the pikes useless well until a bit later in the battle litterly the Orcs here got suckered into a battle they were only partially prepared for
And keep in mind as well the Uruk-hai are literally months old at this point. they're only bred for war, so they're not going to the smartest, but definitely smarter than a regular orc. and again they're months old, and the orcs aren't known for being the best crafters. they'd been preparing this army for months, so there's no telling how many corners they had to cut to get the armor and weapons ready for battle. just saying though.
@@mikelastname9444 that was Saruman doing the thinking there. their purpose was to destroy the race of men and they needed to any way they could. so he provided everything he could to his beloved Uruk'hai
I'm kind of baffled that people criticising the orcs having pikes miss something really important that even gave real life military commanders fits and still do. You have tens of thousands of orcs, marching from Isengard with what they can carry. Considering they have to cross miles of land that is protected by cavalry, the pikes make total sense. Because guerilla ambushes are a thing that are demonstrated in this movie. The orcs have no wagons, no supplies, no way to rearm, they use what they have and what they have (many of them are pikes.) Even though this is a huge army, they are intended as a swift moving military force, carrying the bare minimum to allow for speed. Saruman doesn't care how many he loses, as long as they do their job. If all you give someone is a pike and you point them at a battle where they must fight or die, with no reinforcements and no supplies, of course they are going to use the pike. Also the orcs had no way of knowing that the secondary cavalry force was a thing. Saruman knew and Grima knew but they aren't going to bother explaining to the rank and file, especially when there are tens of thousands of them. One of the biggest problems with reactions like this, is that the reactors have knowledge the participants in the movie don't and yet expect them to react as if they do. Logistics have led to more military defeats in history than just about any other consideration.
The Uruk hai are armed with long pikes as they go to war with Rohan, whose army is mostly cavalry. In fact, Rohan's strategy is extremely effective: Draw the enemy into a siege battle while the cavalry strikes in the back. This is reminiscent of the strategy of the Roman general Belisarius, who similarly defended Rome against the Visigoths and destroyed their huge army under its walls.
it always bothers me that Legolas is up to 17 in the first few minutes of the battle (book and film), and by the end of the night barely doubles that with 41 orcs killed
@@svenlauke1190 He got those 17 kills while the Uruks were charging and he could use his bow before they reached the walls. Then it became a melee where the Uruks tough armor and shields probably made it much tougher.
It is likely that the Urk amour is of low quality because it was mass produced for many thousands of them in a short space of time. So the arrows going through it might make sense.
I'd somewhat agree, however it would have to be pretty flimsy, like copper grade armor or something. Tod's workshop did a lot of tests on various types of armor. Arrows really are just twigs when faced with plate.
@@Steeeeeb he did a test of brit longbow vs french heavy knight steel breastplate. Its possible/likely the weapons and armor of uruks was iron, and seeing HOW it was made, cast iron.
@@doe6974 even if it were cast iron it would have to be very very flimsy (riddled with impurities) for an arrow to penetrate. Pickup any old cheap frying pan made from iron, you still wont be able to shoot an arrow through it. Aluminium maybe. But not iron.
@@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei Hum, no, absolutely not. Christopher Tolkien did indeed not like them, when you look at his comments, it seems that he mainly disliked the commercialisation of his fathers work. But most fans of the books absolutely loved them. There were minor complaints, but by far the consensus back then was that it was an excellent adaption.
It makes sense to have a seperate carrier for the torch because if the bomb carriers would also have the torch with them they would make a bright, easy to see an shoot target. Better would be the bomb carriers also have some flint stone and only lit the torch in cover, but hey, wouldn´t be this spectacular, right?
It also wasn't like the torch carrier did anything fancy to light the explosives (like using a fuse). He just straight up yeeted himself along with the torch into the mines creating an instant explosion. Seems like you want to keep the mines and fire away from each other until you actually want it to blow up.
Pikes: we can assume they are armed with them to defend against the horsemen of Rohan. Doesn't end up helping because Gandalf intervenes and blinds the Urkhai but if he had not the Rohirram probably would've been slaughtered. It's smart for them to carry them in case they were intercepted along the way to Helms Deep.
0:46 because they were suppose to fight horsemen, they weren't expecting to start a siege. Saruman prepared them to fight the rohirrim and THEN learned Theoden went to Helms Deep. That is also why their blades have a spike at the end, they were intended to hook and pull down riders from their horses 3:57 and also you can see the pykes were used to push the ladders up.
concerning pike: Saruman initial plan was to fight on open field against Rohirrim cavalry. He even sent warg raiders to slow down Rohan movement. in the book, Rohan's column had to circle around to stay away from Uruk-hai march. Considering that Helm's Deep is located between Edoras and Isengard, this show that the Uruk-hai already outpaced Rohan's and block their direct route to the fortress. Since they keep on pursuit-march, this clearly show that Saruman's plan was to outnumbered Rohirrim on open battlefield (10,000 Uruk-hai vs +- 2000 Rohirrim)
A fun video. Helps you spot all the moments where Jackson sacrificed realism to tell a fun-for-the-whole-family cinematic story, probably with full knowledge of the compromises he was making. At the end of the day, these are tentpole movies, not documentaries.
The Uruk-Hai brought pikes because they were going up against the kingdom of Rohan, home of the horse lords. They expected the majority of their opposition to be cavalry, especially if they caught the people of Edoras before they made it to Helm's Deep. Why they carried them all the way up the walls of the Hornburg is another story :P
The horsemen wouldn't ride out to meet them. Thant's the point of the keep - stay behind the walls, so there's no expectation of engaging mounted troops. Once inside the walls, the area is more constricted than on open ground making pikes unwieldy - slow/inefficient in my unprofessional opinion..
@@michaelhanford8139 the horsemen did ride out to meet them at the end, and they always had to be ready to contend with the rest of Rohans forces potentially coming and attacking them. plus, you can help clear a breach of defenders by pushing them back with polearms. once inside a narrow part of the keep, yes the polearms lose effectiveness, but they can still have their uses.
@@Rembanspellsong Hey, you know where the pikes weren't? When they rode out to meet them! So basically, the pikes were there during the useless times, but not there when it might have been useful.
@@NestedQuantifier They only charged as far as indoors and the bridge. These were not places suited for pikemen. Had help not arrived, they'd have to face pikes on the outside.
armies wielded pikes regardless of what they were assaulting. Could have been an army of horses in front of helms deep, and if you dont recall, gandalf shows up with thousands on HORSEBACK.
Also keep in mind that this army marched from Isengard to attack Edoras, not Helm's Deep. King Theoden retreated to the fortress because it was much more defensible with the small force available to him. The Uruk-hai were prepared for a pitched battle on an open plain and storming a hill city, not a siege in the mountains
Then the army would place spikes, like Henry V did at agnicourt. Or place their pikes at the flank, to defend against a cavalry attack. But no, a real army would not be taking their pikes up the ladders, nor would they carry them until they reached the ladders and then drop them on a pile or something like that.
Still, most viewers aren't experts, and Legolas doing his things is just cool. Also, makes him special even among the elves, as he's the only one doing this kind of stuff. Again, being a non-expert, I've always felt they tried for Aragorn (and Boromir) being more grounded in what they do, while Legolas is the cool showoff (they did, apparently, feel that sunglasses wouldn't work for him, though). Gimli would be the Aragorn/Boromir team as well when it comes to fighting, but his more apparent job is comic relief...
We did see some Uruk-Hai wielding other weapons during the trilogy, however pikes are far cheaper to make in terms of iron usage than swords. If you are going to make weapons for a vast army and iron is in a somewhat relative limited supply it makes sense to just make a bunch of spears/pikes. This has actually happened during medieval warfare, not everyone could have a sword at certain times, even spears without iron tips were used.
Ahaha. We don't have enough iron and we can't provide everyone with swords, but we did have enough iron to equip tens of thousands of legionnaires with heavy cast-iron armor.
Really enjoyed your perspective & humour on the 3 LOTR films Matt! And am glad I'm not the only one who loves the movies but cringes horribly every time that 'Legolas skateboarding' scene appears 😂🙈 (Or wonders why the 'Olympic torch carrier' orc was necessary when the sappers had literally just been in there with torches...)
Well that looks a little silly, but we need to give some credit - Legolas has a superhuman agility, so considering this, it's not that implausible (what would be the practical point of that stunt is another story). What bothers me more with those movies is an incredible lack of basic economy besides Shire - what do they eat for example? Rohan is shown to have at least some wheat fields and villages, but Gondor has absolutely no agriculture, no villages, not even ruins of them, nothing - food is the last thing in the world you want to import. Even today when we have all the technology, food is made locally whenever possible.
It's still the best fantasy or medieval battle ever filmed. The four months of hard work they spent at night in the cold and wet shows. The Extended Edition means the battle doesn't overwhelm the screentime. Funnily, the fortress looks nothing like a medieval fortress, but rather a WW1 fortress as Tolkien would have been familiar with.
@@royalecrafts6252Andrew is referring to The Fellowship of the Ring, where Sean Bean's character Boromir was shot with 3 arrows before he went down. Seems like a bit of an inconsistency between the 2 movies (in that one the arrows weren't very strong while in this one they go straight through armour).
The Uruks brought special can-opener pikes meant to dismantle fortifications. This is why they were completely ineffective against Gandalf's cavalry charge.
Gandalf timed the charge with the rising sun. Or possibly he used some magic... it's not the first time he used the sun as a weapon against an enemy. (It's also how he took out Tom, Bert, and William.)
the pikes were explained in the books. the uruks originally were planned to fight the rohirim in the field. theoden wanted to ride out and fight them being a cavalry based society. it was a key plot point persueding him to defend at helms deep.
0:37 The pikes were meant to ward off any Rohirrim cavalry that could have attacked them en-rout to helm's deep as they were traversing the wide open fields of the Westfold. Also, since the Rohirrim utilized the Parthian method of firing arrows from horseback, the dense cluster of pikes were also meant to obstruct any volleys sent their way (as demonstrated by the Macedonian phalanx used by Alexander the Great) while the otherwise vulnerable crossbow troops took them down in turn.
I really appreciate that he acknowledges the fact its fantasy and that things are gonna be a little bit extra. "They wouldn't raise the ladder with a guy hanging off the top, but they're Uruks, I mean c'mon" is really refreshing in these Expert React kind of videos.
I've always felt the torch runner was carrying a smaller explosive to start a chain reaction. Look at how the "flame" looks more like a fuse burning than a proper torch.
Y’all didn’t even let it go another 15 seconds and show the orcs be blinded by the sunlight as Gandalf and the riders swoop down upon their now blinded lines.
Ehhh even with that with how they showed it in the film the pikes where still mostly down and the fact every single warrior had a pike the horses would have gotten killed. Now in th extend edition and the books the Uraika get killed by a forest that kind of appears and that's what kills most of them. But the cavalry in all reality would have been shredded trying to punch through thousands of pikes especially when there horses are not very armored.
@@dannycampbell5255 In the book the orcs just have spears, not pikes, and don't have time to set spears in formation since Theoden's charge is unexpected and at close range. Plus other things going on.
@@dannycampbell5255 The Huorns only killed the retreating Uruks. They didn't enter the main battlefield. And the sunlight isn't just blinding to the orcs, it's a HUGE demoralizer to their kind. Faced with a courageous, unrelenting enemy pouring out of the sunrise? They broke in fear.
Schola Gladiatoria's boss Matt Easton has always been and will always be an authority, for what concerns traditional fencing, weaponry and swordplay. What's more, he isn't afraid to point out with irony the most debatable (or blatantly ridiculous) cinematic solutions, in films like this one; which, by the by, was very well done, back then, especially if compared to more recent fantasy stuff.
Holding the bow at full draw being a bad thing is not only for bows. It also goes for muzzleloaders like flintlocks and percussions; when it's fully cocked for the entire day, the feather will break - sadly it happened to me once.
Little know fact about Sally ports. During long sieges, these side doors would be used for food orders, such as pizza and Chinese food. Anyone found abusing the food delivery driver would have their Uber/Grubhub account deleted immediately.
Everybody (including Matt himself) seems to forget/downplay the fact that in addition to being a sword expert Matt is a trained and experienced archaeologist as well.
Just as a note whenever you asked about why they had pikes at the start of the video: The reason for this was, that they carried them to deal with any Rohirrim (Riders of Rohan) that attacked them or commenced raids on the Urukhai army before they got to Helm's Deep.
The berserker with the torch is, as you say, there to die. The higher ranking officers bring the powder kegs in. You can actually see it on their helmets. Earlier in the movie you can also see it on their banners. They have different roles marked by their helmet types.
Pikes make absolute sense for the Uruk Hai. Pikemen were used to go through and defend breached walls during both the XV, XVI and XVII centuries. Futhermore, the land of Rohan is mainly defended by heavy cavalrymen, and pikes do well against cavalry.
The reason why the Pikes were there was because the army was originally outfitted to face the Rohirrim out in the open plains, the Rohirrim are known best for their cavalry as they are few in number and so not the best at defense. This is why in the scenes before the siege we are shown the army marching about the open plains. Once they realized that the Rohirrim had withdrawn to Helms Deep they simply routed there. The pikes would still see use as any reinforcements would have to arrive on horseback.
It was 2 hours on screen, but it was 5 days in the film. Gandalf has to go and find them and left before the seige, and right at the end, when they appeared, it was the 5th day.
Legolas uses his bow and arrows more to highlight the fact that he is one of the greatest elven archers and his arrows were made with mithril which makes them the hardest and sharpest metal in middle earth which is why his arrows do way more than a normal arrow would
A great example of the disparity in numbers defending a castle is the defense of The Market of Meaux by Gaston de Foix and roughly 400 fighting men against some 9,000 Jacques Rebels for 3 days.
Hey Matt! Love your content and the feedback here. The pikes always bothered me in the movie, but it could be they’re still carrying them because in the books they are coming from having broken a cavalry unit just a couple days before this battle. Otherwise, of course the movie crew was just going for a prop that could add to the visual grandeur of the moment.
Rohan is known for mounted combat, so they were likely armed with pikes in case the Rohirrim decided to counterattack while they were in the march, instead of just fortifying in helms deep. Which they attempt to do against Gandalf and Eomer’s charge at the end, but they use the sun against them.
You need somewhat decent quality materials to make plate in the first place, if they weren't available the Uruk hai would just be wearing chainmail and leather, like we see with the orcs at minas tirith
Not to mention, as he said several times in the video, the Urukhai and orc troops are largely disposable and they don't mind heavy casualties, so they probably did have cheap, mediocre armor
Love the movie, love your comments. One little detail - Legolas is not stabbing with an arrow in this one, he is using one of the two short swords he is carrying on his back.
He's using an arrow. You can see when he stabs when you slow it down. He pulls an arrow out of his quiver, it's long and thin, much thinner than his daggers and also has feathers on the end
About the arrows penetrating the breastplates of the uruk-hai, maybe there's a chance that they used reinforced armor that had leather underneath to make it more comfortable, and a much thinner outer shell of metal to stop grazing blows and not straight on arrow shots like the one we saw where it does punch through
@@ianpatrickclarksr4074 it's been said in the series that saruman was spending inordinate amounts of money importing artisan foods like cheese and the long bottom leaf in barrels from the Shire and surrounding areas, is it possible that he may have run out of money to give high quality or even medium quality armor to his troops because of his crippling pipe weed addiction? Could this even explain his resounding loss
These battle scenes are the main reasons Christopher hadn't liked the Trilogy. Peter Jackson, indeed, overdid some of the battles in the Trilogy. Yet, the Trilogy was approximately close to the perfection of the Tolkien's world, though there were huge differences.
One example of said diferences is that Gandalf comes with a huge force of INFANTRY. They changed it for horses in this movie, but kept the steep hill they came running down. On horseback. Turning an epic scene from the book into basically a Benny Hill sketch.
Yeah, it definitely does. But typically, bows were kept in oiled leather cases until the very last minute, quivers almost always have oiled leather flaps, bows and bowstrings were heavily waxed, all to make them as effective as possible for as long as possible. Eventually, they dont work all that well, but archers would use every trick they could to keep themselves in the game as long as they could. With the fact that the battle is vastly time compressed for the sake of the movie, they would have definitely been effective for the short period of time represented. Source: Used to do medieval style archery, and am a big military history buff. :)
Uruk hai had pikes because Rohan peolpe fight mostly as cavalry, and they aspected to fight them on horses, they did not aspect them to hide in a fortress. Uruk were ready to a siege yes, however pikes could have been useful against any surprise attack, wich is exactly what happens in the end of the battle.
That’s what field fortifications like ditches and stakes are for, and if the Uruks are to lazy to set those up, they still don’t need 100% of the force carrying pikes into a siege. There was a force of 10,000 Uruks there. They could easily have deployed 3-5,000 as a rear guard with pikes as the remaining 5-7,000 left their pikes in the baggage train and then conducted the assault with swords and shields. The pike formation doesn’t need to be deeper than 8 soldiers to stop any cavalry charge dead in its track.
@@QualityPen they did what you say more or less. You can see most of pikes uruk in two moments, when they break the walls, in open formation, and against the cavalry in the end, the rest of the time, on the walls and at the gate, they use sword and shield
This battle was actually inspired by the siege of vienna, the ottomans sieged the city, dig tunnels to blow up the walls, and in the end the polish cavalry, the winged hussars, saved the day, leading a charge of 18000 horses, the largest horse charge to ever be
The reason the orcs all have pikes is because in the novel they fought the Rohirrim at the fords of the Isen and King Theoden was on his way to reinforce his forces there. The Rohirrim cavalry were scattered by the Uruk-hai and Theoden diverted to Helm's Deep and the and Isengard's forces followed.
As for the pikes issue, it seems pretty easy to explain to me. They were being sent against a force with a gigantic cavalry. They ended up in a siege battle instead and they care so little about their fighters that they were perfectly fine with throwing them into the wave attack. They are easily replaced, will probably kill at least a portion of the enemy and will be a target instead of your more useful forces. Also, those pikes were definitely needed when they got charged by the Rohirrim later in the battle. If not for that timely sunrise, they probably would have done devasting damage to that cavalry charge.
The main reason that the urukai army was equipped with pikes is because they were sent by saruman to fight rohan, a nation notorious for its cavalry the rohirim, which are the fellas that come and help with gandalf at the end of the fight. Helms deep was deffinetly rohans last resort, but the uruks were first and formost equipped to take on rohans strongest force :3
Well the torch looked odd- like it was throwing aggressive sparks. So maybe it was like binary explosive of some sort? Normal fire wouldn't set it off, but this torch that seemed like a giant sparkler had the last bit of compound needed for detonation of the bombs?
The reason for the massed pikes from the attacking Uruk-Kai makes sense when you consider who they are attack - the Rohirrim, the Riders, the Horsemen. They are known as the best cavalry in the world. Of course you bring massed pikes in that case.
Aren't the pikes there in case they are attacked by the horsemen that aren't inside the walls? They prepared to use them at the end but then Gandalf/the sun blinded them
The road from Helms Deep into the dale, is too smooth, horses at a gallop down it would be apt to slip (and it doesn't have a curb). Definitely agree about that hill slope!
Real horses yes but Rohan horses are stated as being far superior to modern breeds. The best of them (shadowfax) is highly intelligent and tireless. Their abilities don't reflect reality.
The pikes are if you look at the points kinda hooked cus they are using them to raise ladders which is why they didn't just leave them at the rear once they knew it was gonna be a siege instead of a pitched battle against a army known for their cavalry where they would have been a key counter
One thing I'm disappointed he failed to take note of was Gandalf using the sun to his advantage in his charge. (He seems to have planned it too, since he specifically tells Aragorn, "at *dawn* , look to the *east* ".) You can see, just after the Uruks get their pikes in position, the sun comes over the ridge and blinds them. Or perhaps it had already come up but was hidden by the riders at the top, so that it suddenly shone after the last of them passed over? In any case, obviously also a valid tactic.
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I don't even know how many times I have watched this movie, so it was great for me to really go FULL SWORD NERD on the fights. Great editing as always!
Ladders were also used by Wellingtons men in Spain were they not? At Cuidad Roderigo and Badajoz?
ladders are firmly placed in reality, especially vs other items in this sequence, there is only so far one can suspend disbelief.
The Pikes.....you have to look at the bigger picture (pun somewhat intended?), the Uruk Hai where out to meet and fight the Rohan army, a cavalry army, so pikes we carry, even tho in the end the end up assaulting a fortress. Who's to know the fortunes of war?
@@aminrodriguez4707 That was my thought as well.
Pikes make perfect sense because the Urk hai had to walk 200 miles across open terrain to get there. Inside a nation that is completely dominated by horse mounted warriors.
So why not put them down when the siege begins
@@jimmybobby4824 because they also work decently well for pushing infantry through a breach (shields might have helped....and why didn't the elves keep shooting??)
Ya he kinda loses all credibility when he’s like Pikes are used against Calvary, well, what is Rohan known for in Tolkien’s world….
@@seanpoore2428
No they do not
@@thodan467 "only a Sith deals in absolutes" with a wide enough breach they definitely could be, and the movie shows that exactly. The only real issue with that specific part was the elves should have never stopped shooting, but once they ran out of arrows thing would play out pretty much exactly as they did
Matt, leave the guy with the torch alone. He had leukemia and the Orc-A-Wish Foundation helped him achieve his dream. It's one of the nicest things Saruman does in the whole back half of the Third Age.
Its like the scene in 300 except rather then just send the guy away and have him join the other side Saruman is like "You cannot serve on the ladders but you CAN be our olympic torch bearer, its a position of great honour! "
Actually, the scene makes perfect sense to me. Saruman clearly knew that when the powder went off, everyone in the mine would be killed. So, he had all of his miners withdraw because they were highly trained specialists that he could use later. Then, once his valuable miners were safely clear, he sent a more expendable berserker in to set off the charge.
@@emmitstewart1921 read the tone dude. This is all a joke. No one cares about your rationalisation
Because while they are larger and stronger, Uruk-Hai are still Orcs. You don't want them accidentally setting off the explosives before they are properly placed.
@@lordpuki1375 That would have been another consideration, especially after watching Grima Wormtongue, who is much smarter than any orc, nearly setting it off by holding his torch near to see it better.
While it's never directly, explicitly stated, there is some logic in the siege going for an immediate attack rather than attempting to starve the defenders out; it's mentioned that there's a back way out of the keep through the mountains. The goal of the attack is to kill everyone inside, a prolonged siege would give them time to evacuate. There's also the possibility of wanting to end it before reinforcements show up, which, reinforcements showing up is the thing that ultimately costs them the battle.
In the book it is additionally said that Helm's Deep had a great store of food prepared so it would take a while to starve them out (even with the number of civilian refugees who found shelter there):
"Behind us in the caves of the Deep are three parts of the folk of Westfold, old and young, children and women,' said Gamling. 'But great store of food, and many beasts and their fodder, have also been gathered there.'"
@@fantasywind3923 The amount of ressources doesn't matter. There's lots of historic examples where the attackers besieged the defenders for weeks, months, sometimes even years - the vikings besieged Paris for over a year before backing off.
In the battle of Alesia the romans besieged the gauls for months even though they knew that additional gauls where gathering to relief the city and break the siege. What they did instead of attacking was building defences of their own in both directions, towards the city and towards the other direction as well. They knew that the approaching army had no time to besiege the roman defences because they where trying to rescue the already starving people in the city - and the romans where successfull, they defeated the approaching army defending their own fortifications.
In the battle of Corfe Castle 30 defenders defeated an attacking force of 350, loosing only 2 men in the battle.
The only reason why the Uruk Hai did not besiege Helms Deep is because they're Uruk Hai - they lack the patience to besiege the fortress and also don't value the lives of their troops.
What is missing in the movie version of the battle is that the attacking force was not all Uruk Hai though - there was also a sizeable force of human warriors from Dunland.
Orks hungry. Orks fight.
@@HH-hd7nd Caesar got very lucky at the Battle of Alesia. What he did was brilliant, but he was very nearly totally annihilated with all his men.
Pompey would have returned a few years later with 10 legions or so to conquer Gaul anyway, but his rival would have been very dead.
Saruman had not the time for a siege, Sauron was on the move
Concerning pikes: Yes, against the walls of Helms Deep those sticks are worth nothing. But if the warlord commanding the orc/Dunlending army expects some crazy Rohirrim thing, some on-horse-sally possibly, then the pikes are just OK.
Another thing to remember that the movies don't really make clear is that the Uruk-hai army was meant to challenge Theoden in the field, which would make the pikes invaluable against the primarily cavalry army that Theoden was expected to use, as well as the infantry that had been guarding the Isen Ford. It was only their ineptness that led to Theoden reaching fortifications that made the pikes less useful.
@@matthewhubbard1200 Having the pikes is not the issue. Deploying them in front of the walls in stead of leaving them in the baggage train is the issue.
Actually this is simply due to the movie. In the books the ork army fought against the humans before all of them reached the fortifications. This isn't really shown in the movie.
Yup
Literally came here to say this! The Rohirrim are ALLLLL ABOUT horses/cavalry, and indeed, they DO make a sortee from the keep at the end of the battle! Furthermore, Eomer and Gandalf show up with a whole mess of cavalry. Seems like reasonable foresight too me - and if they hadn’t been blinded during Gandalf and Eomer’s charge, they very well may have done an awful lot of damage to them with said pikes.
Fun trivia note: if you look closely at the uruk-hai crossbows in this movie, they're lever-action. This was a conscious choice by the props department to emphasise Saruman's possession of an R&D department.
Also most of these orcs dont have the finesse or patience to actually learn to use normal bows in close-up combat, a trigger-action weapon is perfect for them.
Should be noted that Saruman was under immense time pressure to present his occupation of Rohan as a fait accomplis to Sauron (assuming he is about to walk over Gondor) since anything less than being a formidable power in himself would lead to being punished for his treachery; so the non drawn out seige has military reasons, not just cinematic ones.
You also have Theoden asking Aragorn, "So much death...What can men do against such wreckless hate?" Implying that an army of men would not be willing to sustain such losses in a single attack during a siege. However, because the orcs are willing to sacrifice far more than men, they can take a fortress in a single very bloody assault.
Saruman also may have been aware of Gandalf going to Eomer for aid which could also explain why he wanted the siege over as fast as possible
Orks don’t March with a retinue of cooks or saw bones they were not forged to wait out a siege but to destroy everything before them without hesitation and before they turn on each other.
Also rapid escalades with ladders were attempted in medieval sieges, if there was a huge time constraint, or if the commander was especially bold, and if that assault failed you could then settle down for a long siege.
@@christ4032 it's called a storm and yeah they were attempted whenever a siege required a quick finish.
Something that is a great bit of thematic narrative is the technology that each group has.
Most of the human side is limited to bows, chainmail and wooden shields (representing the "old" ways) while the orcs representing industrialization have crossbows, plate armor, metal shields, and explosives.
And gun powder
That's because the Elves, Wizards and Dunedein keep the West at a pre-industrial, fuedal technology level, artificially sustained by magic and overseen militarily by powerful vassals like Gondor and Rohan.
Shield riding on stairs and elephants was first brought to bear during the Neolithic era most notably in the Flintstone wars.
Rumor has it that the great hero Fred didn't even need a shield. He could surf barefoot down a staircase.
Aragorn is from the line of the Dúnedain, thus physically stronger than the average man, among other gifts. So dwarf tossing should not have been too strenuous for him lol
Came here to say this haha
The TL;DR of this comment section is just that all this stuff makes sense within the lore and this guy is talking about it as if it’s supposed to be accurate, seems a bit silly to me
well according to Scorsese, tossing dwarfs is kinda not a big deal really ....
@@Pman8362 This happens a lot, some expert reviews a movie and critiques it and doesn't assume once that there may be an explanation in the lore, and then the comments are just repeating the same thing.
Context
For a bit of context about the charge down the causeway. In the books there were no women and children (or elves) at the Hornburg. They weren't hoping to defeat the Uruks, their charge out at the end was a hail Mary to escape the valley.
Wouldnt work in real life. If they were all pikemen faceing you with cav charge is a death senetence.
@@pride2184 It wasn't really ment to work in the story either. Their option was die in the fort or take their chances on an escape. Either decision is pretty bleak. It was a juiced up Gandalf deus ex machinaing that saved the day.
@@chadicvsmaximvslxix6050 aka plot armor sauron won the war
‘Behind us in the caves of the Deep are three parts of the folk of Westfold, old and young, children and women,’ said Gamling. ‘But great store of food, and many beasts and their fodder, have also been gathered there.’
@@pride2184 when the only choices are have everyone die behind the walls of a keep, or die in a calvary sally and possibly have a few make it through to escape on horseback, you tend to take the one where someone might make it out to rally the rest of the military. They knew they were going to probably all die, but with the calvary sally they thought that maybe some would be able to get away and they might possibly kill more uruks with that as well.m It was a last ditch attempt. Even if they took the mountain path escape route, they wouldn't get far before the uruks would catch them, because the Uruks were bred to be heartier then men and would run without need of rest until they had chased them down.
14:39 Aragorn is as strong as a handful of normal men, since he's a Dunedain, descended from the Numenoreans. He's more than 2 meters tall (hence Strider) and he's 87 years old.
He is not 8ft tall
@@KingFatty11 2 meters is 6'5", according to Tolkein Gateway Aragorn's official Hight is 6'6''
@@WillemLawyer That is definitely not portrayed in the films very well. He's an absolute lad
Númenóreans are basically a race of Captains America and Batmen. They are well beyond what we would consider human.
@@sithlordzach8418 You mean a race of gigachads.
The issues with the horses is explained in lore, at least partially. They're not regular horses as we would know them, but rather far tougher and more capable. It's kind of hinted at by the existence of Shadowfax in the films.
Was gonna mention this. Glad it was already stated.
yeah same thing goes for the eagles. they have sentience and super-durability compared to their "modern counterparts"
@@PacMonster0 you've never seen a horse trample something in its way? If thats the bar then real horses can do that.
Feels like Amazon trying to create hate against the OG films....
We all suspend disbelief to enjoy this type of film and accept that there is a fantasy explanation for everything, because it's a parallel universe with it's own rules. On the other hand, watching this video, we accept that Matt's role here is to deliberately look at the scenes and comment on whether they would or could have happened that way in the time when these weapons and tactics were used in reality. Don't we?
What made this trilogy so great was that it was made by people with a passion for the source material and medieval history.
Song of Ice and Fire did it better. A elf surfing down a flight of stairs taking out armored enemies is nonsense.
@@MrChowbaby69 You mean the same one where they deployed artillery in the field against a horde of ice zombies, with cavalry in front?
@@DrunkLurker different show entirely
The reason why the torch bearer and the bombs were separated so much is that the "gun"powder used was extremely sensitive to heat, there is a scene in which Wormtongue came to watch Saruman while he was preparing it and he reprimanded him for bringing a candle to look at it.
Also the bombs were brought in stealthily, the torch isn't
gunpowder, sensitive to heat? thank you for telling us. we would never have known otherwise
14:38 scarily strong, in fact Aragon is so strong that Sauron himself feared him, not just cause of the sword he wields but because of his physical strength and prowess wielding the sword, he's mentioned as the hardiest man of his time.
Boromir was implicitly hardier... Sauron fears the full power of Aragorn. The will to wrest control of the palantir of Minas Tirith and Orthanc from Sauron. The martial abilities as well, but it's a total package type of deal.
16:09 Gimli had blown the Horn of Helm Hammerhand, which is literally an acoustic weapon that mentally scrambled the urukhai and effectively made them punch drunk. This is why they were able to charge out at all lol
Also, the sun had come up, even though unlike conventional orcs, the Uruk-hai could move through daylight, it did hamper them. You can see this very clearly when Gandalf calls on the light of the Istari at the same time the sun goes up over the hills in the east and the Uruk pike formation is blinded and stunned by this sheer beam of light, allowing Éomer's cavalry to charge in almost unharmed.
Glad someone said it.
sooo why didn't they do that from the beggining?
Sun only rises once a day is why
@@Vidhur Orcs could move through daylight, they just hated doing it. Thus it could lead to low morale and was avoided where possible. They still did it when necessary, though, such as to repel Faramir’s charge at Osgiliath.
Uruks were bred specifically to not have that weakness to sunlight, and in Fellowship of the Ring, the Uruk raiding party had no issues running and fighting in the afternoon.
The reason the Orc Attack immediately is that they heavily outnumber the Defenders(Saruman knew Theoden only had a couple hundred men), the Defender has a Host of Cavalry roughly 4000 strong roaming the land only a couple days away, and Saruman needed to eliminate Rohan as a possible Ally to Gondor for Sauron's attack on Osgilliath. Helms deep happens on March 3rd, and Osgilliath happens on March 12. Saruman is engaging in a a Coordinated Strike, if he decapitates Rohan now, it leaves him available to flank Osgilliath 9 days later from the western side of the River.
So meta bro
If you're going to go by the book then do it entirely. There were more than a few hundred men during the siege.
@@rustyshacklfur2637 Yes the defenders inside the fortress are closer to 1000, than 300, but the main Force in the battle is actually Erkenbrand's Eored, which arrives along with a Thousand Foot INfantry accompanied by Gandalf.
We got these epic semi-accurate battle scenes in early 2000... And then 10+ years later we got some Elves Rodeleros jumped on top of perfectly formed phalanx formation instead of attacking from the flanks and also utilize their famed archer regiments.
Semi-accurate was very kind words for this atrocity, that Jackson one upped himself in his next trilogy does not make this any less ridiculous.
This video literally is an expert acknowledging that most of presented stuff is quite accurate but you still call that atrocity?
@@vicdark8807 The only atrocity is your comment lmao
@@vicdark8807 You must be the guy who likes the Battle of Winterfell in GOT season 8.
@@vicdark8807 What?? I'm not sure what you're say he improved in the next trilogy, but it was NOT the battle scenes. Legolas grabs onto a bat's leg as it's flying by and hangs upside down, shooting a bunch of running orcs square in the head as the bat weaves throughout the battle field in a swarm of bats, and he then manages to kill the bat and somehow perfectly lands with no bruises or even a hair out of place. He also is standing on a bridge, the pillar holding up the bridge breaks so the stone bridge crumbles, as it's falling down the canyon Legolas slows time, and moves in real time jumping up the falling stones and makes it back up to the hill, leaps onto the orc's head and shoves his blade through his brain. But yeah, much more accurate than the battle scenes that a expert says is mostly correct, and the things he said weren't can be explained by the lore most of the time.
The amount of ads in this video is obscene. Shame on you IGN
Ikr ridiculous!
Thank goodness someone said it
Right?!
get adblocker never see any ads again
@@sebastianmagnus2213 true, but most of us are watching on our cell phones tbh.
Alright, but where are the ditches around the fortress? You need ditches! As soon as you're done digging your ditch, dig another one!
Shad on top of the walls madly screaming "MACHICOLATIONS!!!"
Only skeletons are proficient in multi ditch construction and playing woodwind instruments without lip nor lung 🫁
and after digging that ditch, dig another ditch.
Digging is for dwarves, tyvm
In the book.
So the Orcs with the Pikes have them because they were prepared to fight the Roherim which are naturally a people who favor Calvary However the Roherim went to Helms deep making the pikes useless well until a bit later in the battle litterly the Orcs here got suckered into a battle they were only partially prepared for
1000% was gonna say this myself but better put cheers!
And keep in mind as well the Uruk-hai are literally months old at this point. they're only bred for war, so they're not going to the smartest, but definitely smarter than a regular orc. and again they're months old, and the orcs aren't known for being the best crafters. they'd been preparing this army for months, so there's no telling how many corners they had to cut to get the armor and weapons ready for battle.
just saying though.
Then what did they bring the bomb for? And why did they have ladders and battering rams?
@@mikelastname9444 that was Saruman doing the thinking there. their purpose was to destroy the race of men and they needed to any way they could. so he provided everything he could to his beloved Uruk'hai
I'm kind of baffled that people criticising the orcs having pikes miss something really important that even gave real life military commanders fits and still do. You have tens of thousands of orcs, marching from Isengard with what they can carry. Considering they have to cross miles of land that is protected by cavalry, the pikes make total sense. Because guerilla ambushes are a thing that are demonstrated in this movie. The orcs have no wagons, no supplies, no way to rearm, they use what they have and what they have (many of them are pikes.) Even though this is a huge army, they are intended as a swift moving military force, carrying the bare minimum to allow for speed.
Saruman doesn't care how many he loses, as long as they do their job. If all you give someone is a pike and you point them at a battle where they must fight or die, with no reinforcements and no supplies, of course they are going to use the pike. Also the orcs had no way of knowing that the secondary cavalry force was a thing. Saruman knew and Grima knew but they aren't going to bother explaining to the rank and file, especially when there are tens of thousands of them. One of the biggest problems with reactions like this, is that the reactors have knowledge the participants in the movie don't and yet expect them to react as if they do.
Logistics have led to more military defeats in history than just about any other consideration.
The Uruk hai are armed with long pikes as they go to war with Rohan, whose army is mostly cavalry. In fact, Rohan's strategy is extremely effective: Draw the enemy into a siege battle while the cavalry strikes in the back. This is reminiscent of the strategy of the Roman general Belisarius, who similarly defended Rome against the Visigoths and destroyed their huge army under its walls.
Olympic Torch Orc diving always cracks me up
Gold medal winner!
The competition between Legolas and Gimli was in the book.
Legolas surfing down a flight of stairs on a shield wasn't.
it always bothers me that Legolas is up to 17 in the first few minutes of the battle (book and film), and by the end of the night barely doubles that with 41 orcs killed
@@svenlauke1190 He got those 17 kills while the Uruks were charging and he could use his bow before they reached the walls. Then it became a melee where the Uruks tough armor and shields probably made it much tougher.
@@geechyguy3441 still...41 kills for the entire night? and we only see him use the knives once, and the bow right until the end.
l'm gIad someone has insight on dwarf tossing.
It is likely that the Urk amour is of low quality because it was mass produced for many thousands of them in a short space of time. So the arrows going through it might make sense.
I'd somewhat agree, however it would have to be pretty flimsy, like copper grade armor or something. Tod's workshop did a lot of tests on various types of armor. Arrows really are just twigs when faced with plate.
Can’t we also assume that elvish arrow tips would have greater penetrative power, just like everything else they make?
@@Steeeeeb he did a test of brit longbow vs french heavy knight steel breastplate.
Its possible/likely the weapons and armor of uruks was iron, and seeing HOW it was made, cast iron.
@@doe6974 even if it were cast iron it would have to be very very flimsy (riddled with impurities) for an arrow to penetrate. Pickup any old cheap frying pan made from iron, you still wont be able to shoot an arrow through it. Aluminium maybe. But not iron.
@@Steeeeeb But an elf firing a magical elvish arrow would probably go through a frying pan?
The Peter Jackson Trilogy is still the best
no doubt, my fav of all times, hard to change it for me!
Although all the nerds hated the Jackson movies as well back in the day. Even Christopher Tolkien hated them.
The gold standard
@@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei Hum, no, absolutely not. Christopher Tolkien did indeed not like them, when you look at his comments, it seems that he mainly disliked the commercialisation of his fathers work. But most fans of the books absolutely loved them. There were minor complaints, but by far the consensus back then was that it was an excellent adaption.
@@slome815 Maybe most, but many of us didn't like the movies, or what they did to characters and sensible plot.
Matt’s a superb content creator. Highly recommend his channel if you like this sort of thing.
It makes sense to have a seperate carrier for the torch because if the bomb carriers would also have the torch with them they would make a bright, easy to see an shoot target.
Better would be the bomb carriers also have some flint stone and only lit the torch in cover, but hey, wouldn´t be this spectacular, right?
True but it looked ridiculous, like a (american) football player running for the end zone & diving over the line to make the touchdown.
It also wasn't like the torch carrier did anything fancy to light the explosives (like using a fuse). He just straight up yeeted himself along with the torch into the mines creating an instant explosion. Seems like you want to keep the mines and fire away from each other until you actually want it to blow up.
Gimli's axe to the crotch is a unbelievable underrated move
Fective though, it seems.
Pikes: we can assume they are armed with them to defend against the horsemen of Rohan. Doesn't end up helping because Gandalf intervenes and blinds the Urkhai but if he had not the Rohirram probably would've been slaughtered. It's smart for them to carry them in case they were intercepted along the way to Helms Deep.
So why did they bring them against the walls?
The bomb guy is called a petardier. The expression "Hoist by his own petard" comes from this
0:46 because they were suppose to fight horsemen, they weren't expecting to start a siege. Saruman prepared them to fight the rohirrim and THEN learned Theoden went to Helms Deep. That is also why their blades have a spike at the end, they were intended to hook and pull down riders from their horses 3:57 and also you can see the pykes were used to push the ladders up.
Shield surfing and oliphant climbing are the most immersion breaking things in these movies.
Best not forget river rafting atop dwarves in barrels in the hobbit! 😂
@@codykennedy8359 We don't talk about that.
The way the books describe legolas' movements and senses these things are right on brand
you think legolas couldn't pull that off? Dude doesn't even sink into snow when he walks and can see for miles.
concerning pike:
Saruman initial plan was to fight on open field against Rohirrim cavalry. He even sent warg raiders to slow down Rohan movement.
in the book, Rohan's column had to circle around to stay away from Uruk-hai march. Considering that Helm's Deep is located between Edoras and Isengard, this show that the Uruk-hai already outpaced Rohan's and block their direct route to the fortress. Since they keep on pursuit-march, this clearly show that Saruman's plan was to outnumbered Rohirrim on open battlefield (10,000 Uruk-hai vs +- 2000 Rohirrim)
Helm's Deep is still one of my favorite battle scenes of all time.
A fun video. Helps you spot all the moments where Jackson sacrificed realism to tell a fun-for-the-whole-family cinematic story, probably with full knowledge of the compromises he was making. At the end of the day, these are tentpole movies, not documentaries.
Lol peter Jackson sacrificed much less “realism” than did Tolkien in his books
The Uruk-Hai brought pikes because they were going up against the kingdom of Rohan, home of the horse lords. They expected the majority of their opposition to be cavalry, especially if they caught the people of Edoras before they made it to Helm's Deep. Why they carried them all the way up the walls of the Hornburg is another story :P
The horsemen wouldn't ride out to meet them. Thant's the point of the keep - stay behind the walls, so there's no expectation of engaging mounted troops. Once inside the walls, the area is more constricted than on open ground making pikes unwieldy - slow/inefficient in my unprofessional opinion..
@@michaelhanford8139 the horsemen did ride out to meet them at the end, and they always had to be ready to contend with the rest of Rohans forces potentially coming and attacking them. plus, you can help clear a breach of defenders by pushing them back with polearms. once inside a narrow part of the keep, yes the polearms lose effectiveness, but they can still have their uses.
@@Rembanspellsong Hey, you know where the pikes weren't? When they rode out to meet them!
So basically, the pikes were there during the useless times, but not there when it might have been useful.
@@NestedQuantifier They only charged as far as indoors and the bridge. These were not places suited for pikemen. Had help not arrived, they'd have to face pikes on the outside.
armies wielded pikes regardless of what they were assaulting. Could have been an army of horses in front of helms deep, and if you dont recall, gandalf shows up with thousands on HORSEBACK.
Also keep in mind that this army marched from Isengard to attack Edoras, not Helm's Deep. King Theoden retreated to the fortress because it was much more defensible with the small force available to him. The Uruk-hai were prepared for a pitched battle on an open plain and storming a hill city, not a siege in the mountains
@@adamuffoletto7869 Very true
Then the army would place spikes, like Henry V did at agnicourt. Or place their pikes at the flank, to defend against a cavalry attack. But no, a real army would not be taking their pikes up the ladders, nor would they carry them until they reached the ladders and then drop them on a pile or something like that.
No, they didn't. And they certainly wouldn't have brought them against the walls. The walls aren't suddenly going to become horses.
Still, most viewers aren't experts, and Legolas doing his things is just cool. Also, makes him special even among the elves, as he's the only one doing this kind of stuff.
Again, being a non-expert, I've always felt they tried for Aragorn (and Boromir) being more grounded in what they do, while Legolas is the cool showoff (they did, apparently, feel that sunglasses wouldn't work for him, though). Gimli would be the Aragorn/Boromir team as well when it comes to fighting, but his more apparent job is comic relief...
Matt Easton should be on IGN more often!
Thanks 🙂
The pikes are mainly for calvary and the Rohiram are a nation dedicated to horses
3:53: that poor elf almost getting blinded by that quiver poking their eyes.
We did see some Uruk-Hai wielding other weapons during the trilogy, however pikes are far cheaper to make in terms of iron usage than swords. If you are going to make weapons for a vast army and iron is in a somewhat relative limited supply it makes sense to just make a bunch of spears/pikes. This has actually happened during medieval warfare, not everyone could have a sword at certain times, even spears without iron tips were used.
Ahaha. We don't have enough iron and we can't provide everyone with swords, but we did have enough iron to equip tens of thousands of legionnaires with heavy cast-iron armor.
Really enjoyed your perspective & humour on the 3 LOTR films Matt!
And am glad I'm not the only one who loves the movies but cringes horribly every time that 'Legolas skateboarding' scene appears 😂🙈 (Or wonders why the 'Olympic torch carrier' orc was necessary when the sappers had literally just been in there with torches...)
Well that looks a little silly, but we need to give some credit - Legolas has a superhuman agility, so considering this, it's not that implausible (what would be the practical point of that stunt is another story).
What bothers me more with those movies is an incredible lack of basic economy besides Shire - what do they eat for example? Rohan is shown to have at least some wheat fields and villages, but Gondor has absolutely no agriculture, no villages, not even ruins of them, nothing - food is the last thing in the world you want to import. Even today when we have all the technology, food is made locally whenever possible.
It's still the best fantasy or medieval battle ever filmed. The four months of hard work they spent at night in the cold and wet shows. The Extended Edition means the battle doesn't overwhelm the screentime. Funnily, the fortress looks nothing like a medieval fortress, but rather a WW1 fortress as Tolkien would have been familiar with.
The best fantasy or medieval battle ever filmed!? That is a bold statement.
Arrows seem to have the stopping power of a 12 gauge shotgun in movies as well haha wtf
Idk man Sean Bean was still killing orcs after multiple arrows
@@andrewc31394 Maybe he would be doing so after multiple shotgun blasts too, you never know
@@andrewc31394 I dont get your comment sorry
@@royalecrafts6252Andrew is referring to The Fellowship of the Ring, where Sean Bean's character Boromir was shot with 3 arrows before he went down.
Seems like a bit of an inconsistency between the 2 movies (in that one the arrows weren't very strong while in this one they go straight through armour).
@@callumpears1523 Boromir doesn't have normal armor like the Urukai. He has plot armor.
The Uruks brought special can-opener pikes meant to dismantle fortifications. This is why they were completely ineffective against Gandalf's cavalry charge.
Those pikes tips look very Killy
Gandalf timed the charge with the rising sun. Or possibly he used some magic... it's not the first time he used the sun as a weapon against an enemy. (It's also how he took out Tom, Bert, and William.)
the pikes were explained in the books. the uruks originally were planned to fight the rohirim in the field. theoden wanted to ride out and fight them being a cavalry based society. it was a key plot point persueding him to defend at helms deep.
0:37 The pikes were meant to ward off any Rohirrim cavalry that could have attacked them en-rout to helm's deep as they were traversing the wide open fields of the Westfold. Also, since the Rohirrim utilized the Parthian method of firing arrows from horseback, the dense cluster of pikes were also meant to obstruct any volleys sent their way (as demonstrated by the Macedonian phalanx used by Alexander the Great) while the otherwise vulnerable crossbow troops took them down in turn.
I really appreciate that he acknowledges the fact its fantasy and that things are gonna be a little bit extra. "They wouldn't raise the ladder with a guy hanging off the top, but they're Uruks, I mean c'mon" is really refreshing in these Expert React kind of videos.
@19:00 you're not gonna mention that matt Easton has a pretty excellent channel himself? Where he does lots of other fight reviews and such?
Now I’m waiting for return of the king, wanna see what he thinks of the battle at pelanor fields.
Waiting on the analysis of the use of Oliphaunts in open field warfare.
That means another vomit inducing Legolas shield slide tho …
@@ianpatrickclarksr4074 Now now, he tarzan'd the trunk. He did not ride the shield down stairs and then kickflip it into a Southron's chest.
He did it. Compared it to Hannibal and aside from Arwen bringing one down with a sword, he loved it
Matt Easton is the best instructor in this area.
I've always felt the torch runner was carrying a smaller explosive to start a chain reaction. Look at how the "flame" looks more like a fuse burning than a proper torch.
Now I’m off to watch the trilogy again for the thousandth time.
"For Frodo!" - charges off to the movies
The uruk-hai have pikes because they were afraid of encountering the horse lords in the open field
Y’all didn’t even let it go another 15 seconds and show the orcs be blinded by the sunlight as Gandalf and the riders swoop down upon their now blinded lines.
Read the fine print
Ehhh even with that with how they showed it in the film the pikes where still mostly down and the fact every single warrior had a pike the horses would have gotten killed. Now in th extend edition and the books the Uraika get killed by a forest that kind of appears and that's what kills most of them. But the cavalry in all reality would have been shredded trying to punch through thousands of pikes especially when there horses are not very armored.
@@dannycampbell5255 In the book the orcs just have spears, not pikes, and don't have time to set spears in formation since Theoden's charge is unexpected and at close range. Plus other things going on.
@@dannycampbell5255 The Huorns only killed the retreating Uruks. They didn't enter the main battlefield.
And the sunlight isn't just blinding to the orcs, it's a HUGE demoralizer to their kind. Faced with a courageous, unrelenting enemy pouring out of the sunrise? They broke in fear.
@@Swiftbow the uruks don't have that weakness. they are fine fighting in sunlight, but they sacrificed their superior night vision for it.
Can we get siege of Minas Tirith Next?
LOVE these videos. Matt is great and so knowledgeable!
Schola Gladiatoria's boss Matt Easton has always been and will always be an authority, for what concerns traditional fencing, weaponry and swordplay. What's more, he isn't afraid to point out with irony the most debatable (or blatantly ridiculous) cinematic solutions, in films like this one; which, by the by, was very well done, back then, especially if compared to more recent fantasy stuff.
Hate that this is just nitpicking. But love that the war is being taken seriously.
Holding the bow at full draw being a bad thing is not only for bows. It also goes for muzzleloaders like flintlocks and percussions; when it's fully cocked for the entire day, the feather will break - sadly it happened to me once.
Little know fact about Sally ports. During long sieges, these side doors would be used for food orders, such as pizza and Chinese food. Anyone found abusing the food delivery driver would have their Uber/Grubhub account deleted immediately.
Everybody (including Matt himself) seems to forget/downplay the fact that in addition to being a sword expert Matt is a trained and experienced archaeologist as well.
Just as a note whenever you asked about why they had pikes at the start of the video: The reason for this was, that they carried them to deal with any Rohirrim (Riders of Rohan) that attacked them or commenced raids on the Urukhai army before they got to Helm's Deep.
The berserker with the torch is, as you say, there to die. The higher ranking officers bring the powder kegs in. You can actually see it on their helmets. Earlier in the movie you can also see it on their banners. They have different roles marked by their helmet types.
Matt got his own voice over introduction
Pikes make absolute sense for the Uruk Hai.
Pikemen were used to go through and defend breached walls during both the XV, XVI and XVII centuries.
Futhermore, the land of Rohan is mainly defended by heavy cavalrymen, and pikes do well against cavalry.
Yes exactly. And I’m sure their swords having hooked ends was meant for them to hook onto the horsemen and pull them down as well
Pikes Rule!
Craaaaaazzzzy attention to detail
In the tossing shot Gimli gets a running start into the jump, Aragorn just grabs him just before he takes off and helps with some extra momentum.
The true arc was not telling the elf
The reason why the Pikes were there was because the army was originally outfitted to face the Rohirrim out in the open plains, the Rohirrim are known best for their cavalry as they are few in number and so not the best at defense. This is why in the scenes before the siege we are shown the army marching about the open plains. Once they realized that the Rohirrim had withdrawn to Helms Deep they simply routed there. The pikes would still see use as any reinforcements would have to arrive on horseback.
Urukhai set off to fight against the horse -masters, hence pikes.
It was 2 hours on screen, but it was 5 days in the film. Gandalf has to go and find them and left before the seige, and right at the end, when they appeared, it was the 5th day.
Why didn't the ones carrying the bomb also carry the torch? Maybe they didn't want the bomb being prematurely set off.
It’s because Orks glory in death so they don’t use fuses. Fuses are for manthings.
So… Don’t light the torch prematurely?
Didn't want to draw attention to the bomb?
Legolas uses his bow and arrows more to highlight the fact that he is one of the greatest elven archers and his arrows were made with mithril which makes them the hardest and sharpest metal in middle earth which is why his arrows do way more than a normal arrow would
A great example of the disparity in numbers defending a castle is the defense of The Market of Meaux by Gaston de Foix and roughly 400 fighting men against some 9,000 Jacques Rebels for 3 days.
Hey Matt! Love your content and the feedback here. The pikes always bothered me in the movie, but it could be they’re still carrying them because in the books they are coming from having broken a cavalry unit just a couple days before this battle. Otherwise, of course the movie crew was just going for a prop that could add to the visual grandeur of the moment.
Rohan is known for mounted combat, so they were likely armed with pikes in case the Rohirrim decided to counterattack while they were in the march, instead of just fortifying in helms deep. Which they attempt to do against Gandalf and Eomer’s charge at the end, but they use the sun against them.
My take on the arrows penentrating the plate of orcs and Uruks in lotr is that orcs probably didn't have access fantastic quality raw materials.
No Pennsylvania steel in Mordor??
You need somewhat decent quality materials to make plate in the first place, if they weren't available the Uruk hai would just be wearing chainmail and leather, like we see with the orcs at minas tirith
Not to mention, as he said several times in the video, the Urukhai and orc troops are largely disposable and they don't mind heavy casualties, so they probably did have cheap, mediocre armor
@@zackmoon592 Sounds like Japan
They cast their swords. It makes sense they cast their armor as well.
Love the movie, love your comments. One little detail - Legolas is not stabbing with an arrow in this one, he is using one of the two short swords he is carrying on his back.
He's using an arrow. You can see when he stabs when you slow it down. He pulls an arrow out of his quiver, it's long and thin, much thinner than his daggers and also has feathers on the end
It is absurd to have this many ads in such a short video
About the arrows penetrating the breastplates of the uruk-hai, maybe there's a chance that they used reinforced armor that had leather underneath to make it more comfortable, and a much thinner outer shell of metal to stop grazing blows and not straight on arrow shots like the one we saw where it does punch through
Arrows piercing breastplate is a hollywood fabrication, although your scenario is obviously plausible.
@@ianpatrickclarksr4074 it's been said in the series that saruman was spending inordinate amounts of money importing artisan foods like cheese and the long bottom leaf in barrels from the Shire and surrounding areas, is it possible that he may have run out of money to give high quality or even medium quality armor to his troops because of his crippling pipe weed addiction? Could this even explain his resounding loss
These battle scenes are the main reasons Christopher hadn't liked the Trilogy. Peter Jackson, indeed, overdid some of the battles in the Trilogy. Yet, the Trilogy was approximately close to the perfection of the Tolkien's world, though there were huge differences.
One example of said diferences is that Gandalf comes with a huge force of INFANTRY. They changed it for horses in this movie, but kept the steep hill they came running down. On horseback. Turning an epic scene from the book into basically a Benny Hill sketch.
Seems like that hard rain would play hell with bowstrings.
Yeah, it definitely does. But typically, bows were kept in oiled leather cases until the very last minute, quivers almost always have oiled leather flaps, bows and bowstrings were heavily waxed, all to make them as effective as possible for as long as possible.
Eventually, they dont work all that well, but archers would use every trick they could to keep themselves in the game as long as they could.
With the fact that the battle is vastly time compressed for the sake of the movie, they would have definitely been effective for the short period of time represented.
Source: Used to do medieval style archery, and am a big military history buff. :)
Archers also carried spare bowstrings, often in a waterproof pouch, so they could swap out if one broke or got stretched.
Uruk hai had pikes because Rohan peolpe fight mostly as cavalry, and they aspected to fight them on horses, they did not aspect them to hide in a fortress. Uruk were ready to a siege yes, however pikes could have been useful against any surprise attack, wich is exactly what happens in the end of the battle.
That’s what field fortifications like ditches and stakes are for, and if the Uruks are to lazy to set those up, they still don’t need 100% of the force carrying pikes into a siege.
There was a force of 10,000 Uruks there. They could easily have deployed 3-5,000 as a rear guard with pikes as the remaining 5-7,000 left their pikes in the baggage train and then conducted the assault with swords and shields. The pike formation doesn’t need to be deeper than 8 soldiers to stop any cavalry charge dead in its track.
@@QualityPen they did what you say more or less. You can see most of pikes uruk in two moments, when they break the walls, in open formation, and against the cavalry in the end, the rest of the time, on the walls and at the gate, they use sword and shield
This battle was actually inspired by the siege of vienna, the ottomans sieged the city, dig tunnels to blow up the walls, and in the end the polish cavalry, the winged hussars, saved the day, leading a charge of 18000 horses, the largest horse charge to ever be
The reason the orcs all have pikes is because in the novel they fought the Rohirrim at the fords of the Isen and King Theoden was on his way to reinforce his forces there. The Rohirrim cavalry were scattered by the Uruk-hai and Theoden diverted to Helm's Deep and the and Isengard's forces followed.
As for the pikes issue, it seems pretty easy to explain to me. They were being sent against a force with a gigantic cavalry. They ended up in a siege battle instead and they care so little about their fighters that they were perfectly fine with throwing them into the wave attack. They are easily replaced, will probably kill at least a portion of the enemy and will be a target instead of your more useful forces.
Also, those pikes were definitely needed when they got charged by the Rohirrim later in the battle. If not for that timely sunrise, they probably would have done devasting damage to that cavalry charge.
The main reason that the urukai army was equipped with pikes is because they were sent by saruman to fight rohan, a nation notorious for its cavalry the rohirim, which are the fellas that come and help with gandalf at the end of the fight. Helms deep was deffinetly rohans last resort, but the uruks were first and formost equipped to take on rohans strongest force :3
Great video!
We in Ithilien are glad to see someone with appreciation of lore and ancient tact, despite this channel itself being a *den for sh¡lls.*
Well the torch looked odd- like it was throwing aggressive sparks. So maybe it was like binary explosive of some sort? Normal fire wouldn't set it off, but this torch that seemed like a giant sparkler had the last bit of compound needed for detonation of the bombs?
The reason for the massed pikes from the attacking Uruk-Kai makes sense when you consider who they are attack - the Rohirrim, the Riders, the Horsemen. They are known as the best cavalry in the world. Of course you bring massed pikes in that case.
Aren't the pikes there in case they are attacked by the horsemen that aren't inside the walls? They prepared to use them at the end but then Gandalf/the sun blinded them
The road from Helms Deep into the dale, is too smooth, horses at a gallop down it would be apt to slip (and it doesn't have a curb).
Definitely agree about that hill slope!
Real horses yes but Rohan horses are stated as being far superior to modern breeds. The best of them (shadowfax) is highly intelligent and tireless. Their abilities don't reflect reality.
@@anaussie213 thank you for reminding me. Point well made.
if you want to see non gifted horses with riders attempting a comparable descent into a river check out some vids of the Omak Suicide Race.
@@ianpatrickclarksr4074 Not really comparable.
The pikes are if you look at the points kinda hooked cus they are using them to raise ladders which is why they didn't just leave them at the rear once they knew it was gonna be a siege instead of a pitched battle against a army known for their cavalry where they would have been a key counter
One thing I'm disappointed he failed to take note of was Gandalf using the sun to his advantage in his charge. (He seems to have planned it too, since he specifically tells Aragorn, "at *dawn* , look to the *east* ".) You can see, just after the Uruks get their pikes in position, the sun comes over the ridge and blinds them. Or perhaps it had already come up but was hidden by the riders at the top, so that it suddenly shone after the last of them passed over? In any case, obviously also a valid tactic.
These reaction videos are edited down so you likely talked about the entire sequence and IGN just cut out the parts they wanted for posting.
@@cm275 Yeah, that may be true. Still a little disappointed it wasn't covered in the video.
That counts as magic and it seems that anything magic related isn’t really mentioned at all in these
@@yomamma.ismydaddy216 How is taking advantage of the sun rising considered magic, especially when it's a pretty well-known tactic in the real world?