I find it hilarious in hindsight how the Cloaked Drone in the Phazon Mines is a monstrous difficulty spike just for the fact that it can't be locked on to, but if you go out of your way to obtain the Waveburst upgrade in the Chozo Ruins on your second visit to get the Ice Beam, this boss becomes laughably easy since the upgrade has stun locking properties and has homing abilities without having to use a lock on. The Drone gets trashed in a matter of seconds if you have enough Missiles for it.
@@mrsnulch Just keep in mind to collect every single Missile Expansion that is available up to that point. Exploring the Phazon Mines tends to be a drag because of Power and Wave Troopers. They can be easily taken care of with the Beam Combo Weapons but they will chew through your missile reserves very quickly.
@@Nyxael5845 Don't worry, I never a leave a missile expansion unturned. I'm very curious about this now. I'll try to test it out sometime next month. I never gave the Waveburst the fair shot it deserved in my previous runs!
I'm a little confused because I've never had trouble with this thing. Y'all didn't just kill it with a couple of super missiles while up on the balcony, next to the entrance?
I heard an expression once about video game sequels, that the developers will either do the same thing again but better, or take the concept in a new direction. Prime 2 was definitely the latter. I'll go ahead and give some of my thoughts as a big Prime 2 supporter. 1: Ammo: I don't really know how to address the rant about boxes and ammo. Prime 1 established that boxes were key to restoring ammo and health outside of combat. I feel like it's a no-brainer that you can get beam ammo back from boxes. As for the ammo mechanic itself, you may have noticed while playing that the Light and Dark beams are really powerful. That's why the ammo system exists, so that the Power beam isn't completely worthless. They included the feature as a balancing system, not with the mindset of adding an interesting gameplay mechanic behind it. Also, you can get ammo for one back even if you run out. Holding charge allows you to fire a normal shot if you're out of ammo, which, to be fair, the game should tell the player this when they get the gun (it says this in the logbook instead). 2: Annihilator beam. The way you were describing the beam makes me think you never actually used it. This weapon shreds every enemy in the game in seconds, and I love the black hole aesthetic of the weapon. Also, shooting a light crystal with the annihilator beam causes all Ing in the area to just straight up run into it and off themselves like a bunch of moths running into a lit bug zapper, allowing you to clear rooms with a single shot. If I remember correctly, you also get both ammo supplies when using the Annihilator. 3: Atmosphere. I understand your complaints, but I think you're missing the point on why Prime 2's environemts are designed the way they are. Aether is a dying world plagued by darkness. It wouldn't make sense to have everything be bright and cheery given the setting. Also at 17:15, you refered to Torvus Bog as a rainforest... It's not, at least since it was flooded. It's a bog, a swampy, murky, overgrown environment like Dagobah from Star Wars. 4: Dark Aether. Dark Aether suffered from a crunched dev cycle, although I still like it. The aesthetic could definitely use a touch up, but the atmosphere is top-notch. I heavily disagree with your comparison to Magmoor Caverns, in fact, I'd argue they're conpletely separate things. Magmoor is just trekking through the same area you've already mastered, no real danger, just a casual stroll. The Dark World in comparison is constantly pushing you into new areas, and it's specifically designed as a place you want to get into and out of quickly because it's lethal. Some sections of Dark Aether feel like death runs, trying to keep your health up while searching for an exit. It's not a gameplay style for everyone, but I think you mistook it for being a design flaw when it's actually intended that you try to run through it as fast and as safe as possible. 5: Keys. No complaints here chief, I have no clue why they insisted on another full-scale key hunt in the longest game of the Trilogy. At least it gives you time to mess around in Dark Arther fully powered up, but it's still tedious. At the end of the day, it's different strokes for different folks I guess.
As with Prime 1, the key hunts were implemented for the sole purpose of padding the game because the devs were worried the game was too short. It's not that they "didn't learn" from the criticisms of the first game -- they had full intention to bring it back
@@LoppinLazyAbsolutely, although it's still funny to me that they felt like they had to pad this game out as well when it's twice as long as Prime 1 on average lol.
Dude, this is a great comment and I don't know how I missed it. Those are all solid rebuttals in favour of Echoes. You should start your own RUclips channel given how eloquently you expressed your points here. The beams are the main area I disagree with you. Yes you can charge an empty-ammo beam to use it to recover ammo from boxes to build that ammo back up, but for me it all still comes back to the fact that this system is boring because you always end up just shooting boxes, so the ammo scarcity ultimately means nothing. My main issue is that in every Metroid game other than Echoes, finding new upgrades is fun and exciting, but in Echoes you are just locked into this system the whole game, and personally I don't find it satisfying. You don't get many cool novel upgrades the entire game and I'm dead bored of the light and dark beam dynamic by the 10th hour. I should have mentioned the Annihilator being able to suck up Ing in the dark world. But by the time you get it, you're 90% deep and onto the key hunt, and by that point I've already been running past Ing in the dark world so it makes no difference. Never need to use it. I also disagree that the Annihilator beam cleans up enemies. In the light world, you can kill enemies faster by hitting them with a charge dark beam shot + missile. Annihilator takes way too long to kill enemies by my count, and deals less damage than the plasma beam. Your points about the Atmosphere and Dark World are totally spot-on and come down to different strokes to different folks. I love the Dagobah comparison and think Torvus has one of the best soundtracks in the series, and Sanctuary is one of the coolest areas in the series. I was a bit too harsh on those environments. I prefer Chozo Ruins and Phendrana personally, but again, preference. You make a good point about the dark world being DESIGNED to be a place you need to skirt in and out of, and I did feel some tension there. Ultimately while it didn't land for me, I really respect Echoes for taking risks and changing things up, and I hope Beyond does something like this. My biggest fear for Beyond is that it will play it too safe. Hopefully it satisfies fans of all Prime games!
@@mrsnulch It's though to say if the ammo system is a problem by itself, or if it's how it's implemented. Somehow, I believe the ammunition system is part of the immersion, there is a lot of constraint, and it's supposed to make you feel nervous about how you are going to handle the dark world. It's also a game about the unbalanced distribution of power, so when you have your light beam ammo, you feel powerful, but when it's depleted, you are powerless. So I understand why it's in the game, but at which point does it increases the experience? Even if you gain acces to the light beam later in the game, the question still remains. Even if we patch the holes with upgrades on the base weapon just like in prime 3 where you don't have to switch with the d-Pad, do we still need bullets? And then there is this question : If I get unlimited ammo, then why would I choose the light beam over the anihilator? The thing is a fast shooting, head seeker. It may be less strong than the plasma beam, this is still a considerable advantage. But you could say that by the time you get it, you have increased you amount of ammunition by a lot already, so you don't really have to worry about it. I think it's just to stick with the logic of it, and to keep the light and dark beam relevant. In fact, there's plenty of ways to keep them relevant. You brought up a very good argument in this video : just add a mechanic in order to take down the ennemies in a strategic manner. It's not hard to think of something, just throw in some dark ings with light crystals in their back that you have to shoot with the dark beam. Ennemies that absorb the light beams, so you have to take them out first in order to be able to shoot the other ennemies around, ennemies that are immune to any weapon exept one of those beams, you can blow up their bullet, or crack their armor to get more munitions, etc. So as the game is right now, the defense to support the ammunition system is the narrative of the game, and to preserve the relevance of the first beams. If we wish to push this idea further, Nintendo could implement new mechanics to the game, where the ammo are around the fighting system, or change something to the upgrades sequence, so the current mecanics can be exploited more progressively. Prime 1 already had ennemies with weak points, and that could have been pushed with prime 2's mechanics.
@@mrsnulchThanks for the kind words! I'm hoping Beyond shakes things up as well. Considering how much the 2D formula has evolved over the years they should be innovating on the Prime formula as well.
1. I love the beam system and ammo. Adds a level of strategy and tension so that combat isn't brain dead. The Annihilator beam would ruin that strategy if it were overpowered. 2. I agree some areas are bland in terms of coloring, but what compensates for that is some of the absolutely coolest architectural design I've ever seen in a video game. Not to mention, the level layouts and puzzle design are so much more interesting than Prime. 3. Echoes is the only game I've ever seen use the light/dark world concept in a clever way. The way you solve puzzles in each dimension to affect the other is brilliant. And the light bubbles add incredible tension to the early game. My only big complaint is the long load time when switching dimensions. 4. I can understand people disliking the fetch quest, but I actually love it. The clues you collect make you feel like a detective, and I think it's really cool how that quest frequently leads you to explore new rooms you wouldn't have gone to otherwise. In Prime, i would enjoy the fetch quest if the world were more efficient to backtrack and explore, but it's not. Echoes provides multiple shortcuts to get from area to area, which makes things flow so much better. Overall, I think Echoes' puzzles, bosses, exploration/backtracking, and challenge are huge improvements over Prime. Echoes' biggest drawbacks are the lack of vivid color and the long load time of the dimension portals. Still, I enjoyed your thoughts and how you articulated them 🙂
There are some great counter-arguments here. I can get behind points 2 and 4. The architecture and mood does help Echoes get away with its flat colour pallet, and I also personally enjoyed the fetch quest. My issue is only that it is mandatory. If it was optional and had some cool secret reward for completion, I still would have enjoyed it and liked it 5x more. For point 3, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one! I think the other games I mentioned (Link to the Past, Axiom Verge Two, Guacamelee!) all have more interesting light/dark world dynamics than Echoes, but there are certainly some stand-outs in Echoes. I remember the Torvus Bog light/dark puzzles were really cool. As for point 1, I have to hard-disagree on that one for the reasons mentioned in the video, but if you found it to be engaging that's all good! I didn't find it strategic at all, and the last weapon in a Metroid game should always be overpowered if you ask me. Either way, thanks for watching and great points!!
I guess I never thought the fetch quest was worse than the one in the original prime. At least it took you to some different locations. But I’d consider the end of game fetch quests to be a weakness of all the games, personally. I think Prime 2 overall just has the most unique voice in terms of its world. Prime 1 just felt like Super Metroid fan fic sometimes, and Prime 3 feels too much like a Saturday morning cartoon.
Literally all of the points you made about this video are exactly why I love Prime 2 in every aspect and way over Prime 1. Honestly having infinite ammo and being an unstoppable force for the rest of the game after you've collected the plasma beam kinda sucked the strategy and tension out of the combat in Prime 1. I agree that while the Annihilator Beam may not be overpowered compared to the Plasma Beam in Metroid Prime 1 It's still an incredible final weapon to get towards the end of the game since it does about the same amount of damage per uncharged shot as the Plasma Beam only it can fire much faster, the shots home in on targets and can create energized crystals/beacons that lure Ing to their doom. Yes the game may have lacked color variety in the environments compared to Prime 1 but the architecture and design of the environments more than made up for it. Not to mention Prime 2 also had some higher quality texture detail than Prime 1 which had pushed the GameCube to it's limits back in 2004 and it still holds up today. The cutscenes still look incredible even 20 years later. The player and enemy animations are all top notch, beautiful environments (aside from the same greyish look you'll see other than when you go into the dark world) and incredible special effects make this games visual presentation deserve an astonishing 9.5/10. The Inclusion from jumping between light and dark world in order to solve new puzzles was also a great new addition introduced to the series. I initially thought the sky temple key hunt was more tedious and time consuming than the hunt for the chozo artifacts but now that you mentioned the world in Prime 2 being more efficient to backtrack and explore than Prime 1's I've now reconsidered my opinion. Overall Metroid Prime 2 brings back everything I loved about Prime 1 and made it even better. With that said I'd give Metroid Prime 2 Echoes a 9.5/10.
For me, Prime 2 is better. You explained why perfectly. However, while ending it I always think that 1 more year of development would have ment an ever better game. The definitive 3D metroidvania. Even crazier visuals (Aegon Waste i'm looking at you), more presence of Metroids around Dark Samus... Nice to see discusions like this online! I'm usually on the "alternative" side: Bioshock 2>1, Prime 2>1, Golden Sun 2>1...
The combat is still as mindless as prime 1, you just are limited in ammo. You’re still spamming the dodge, only now you’re gonna be stuck with power beam if you run out of ammo.
Echoes is a perfect sequel and the best 3d metroid game, it fixed most of the issues prime 1 had, while adding a lot of unique content, both new and returning, prime 1 is basicly super metroid in 3d, while prime 2 is a whole new thing
I’m good to listen to a video with a differing opinion, but some examples you used were clearly cherry picked which makes your point come across as insincere whining rather than an actual argument. Showing the annihilator as weak by showing the charge shot and base boosted versions of the other two, then showing the annihilators normal shot at long range is an unfair showcase of how it feels. Showing different areas of the other games then cherry picking specifically the luminoth temple of each area to make it look more samey than it is makes you look like a jerk rather than you supporting your point. Just think about it for any future videos so you can actually make a fair argument instead of having to fake the evidence.
Hey those are good points and thanks for the feedback! The reason I do that is because I like to show footage those sort of visually represents my opinions on the game, as I think it makes the video more entertaining and helps support my point. For the section about the beams, I'm not trying to show an analysis damage comparison, I'm saying that the Plasma Beam and Nova Beam are badass as fuck with cool sound effects and the Annihilator Beam is ugly. It's more of a joke section to make fun of the Annihilator Beam. In hindsight I actually wish I had shown a charge-beam shot of the annihilator as I think that looks goofy as well, and it actually deals 20% less damage than the plasma beam. For the four-panel shots comparing the three games, that was also meant more as a gag to poke fun at Echoes. Hey at least I used the light world for my comparison -- I could have cherry picked extra hard and went to the dark world where literally every room looks the same across the entire game! Again, I'm trying to visually represent how Echoes has a much more subdued colour pallet than the other 2 games mentioned. I do it in an excessive way, but I don't think that's a hot take regardless. Those 4 panels represent how it feels to play Echoes for me. Either way I acknowledge that there is a line to be walked between the entertainment value and getting too cherry-picky and will keep this in mind for future videos, I don't want it to ever be said that I'm not being fair. I'll consider this for sure. Cheers!
TBF, Metroid Prime 2 not making the sales MP1 did is no doubt directly related to it's release date being *six days* after Halo 2, and less than a month after San Andreas. Nothing could have stood a chance in that release window. The only reason MP2 didn't completely flop on sales was being released on the Gamecube, isolating it to an extent from the other two games. But for most people picking a game to buy in November that didn't only have a Gamecube, they probably picked up Halo on Xbox, or GTA on PS2.
I actually like the 3rd the most. This was definitely the hardest to play through the game (due to tedium) The hardest thing I expect in Metroid prime 4, will be getting the special edition 😅.
I totally agree, I know there are those who don't like Prime 3 because it's more "mainstream" and linear, which it totally is, but I think that game slaps so hard that it gets away with it!
@@mrsnulch i think the notion that samus has to be entirely alone and there cant be other characters is the reason why people dislike 3... and i think its a dumb argument. you dont even need much dialogue - the 3 hunters dont talk much but they leave so much more impact than any other character in any other metroid game. its even dumber when people take other m as an example. that wasnt due to other characters and dialogue existing.. that was just bad writing.
@@Lewt_2B Well said, I agree with that. Samus is usually a lone bounty hunter, but it's not always a bad thing to see her collaborating with other hunters or the federation from time to time. Other M only failed because the writing was horrible and an insult to her character.
I think Prime 3 is way too easy on Normal difficulty, but the Hyper Mode mechanic works really well on Veteran and Hypermode difficulties. You really have to manage your health usage and use Hyper Mode to its fullest in every fight and boss battle.
I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts, but as someone who thinks Echoes is the best game in the series and a massive step up from Prime... I'm guessing I'll disagree with your perspective 😋
That's totally fair, there are a lot of great aspects of Echoes and I do point out a few things I like about the game as well! I can see why some with different tastes than me might consider it the best.
@@mrsnulch I second this comment. Prime 2 was different, but imo the superior game. Not too difficult to beat, but definitely a lot harder than Prime 1. The planet of Aether just fascinated me a lot more than Tallon IV.
Lot's of great points here, i remember struggling alot with this game and it's atmosphere. I really wanted to like it, i persevered through the game but damn.. it left kind of a bitter taste back then. It was so agressive and dark, bold but i think strayed too far of what Prime 1 was and what that game felt like to the players. Now that that memory has faded we can take a better look at what it truly was. The title screen opening is still one of the greatest ever btw..
Yeah exactly, like look it's a good game I'm not saying it's a horrible game, but I really have a hard time putting it up there with the 1st or 3rd and that muddy atmosphere still really holds the game down for me.
I'm one of those who thinks Echoes is a slightly better game than Prime 1 and I have 2 issues with your video. 1. Not a huge issue but you didn't mention in the beam section how Prime 1 had this whole beam switch mechanic then basically had you only use the Plasma beam once you got it. They had to hand fist beam switching with the annoying Pirates with the unique beam Armor. Echoes meanwhile tries to get you to use all the beams throughout the game and has all beams work just at different effectiveness levels. 2. The bigger issue I had is you clearly show how you found Prime 1 to be superior. However, you didn't explain how Prime 3 is superior so the part of your conclusion where you show Prime 3 beating out Prime 2 doesn't feel backed up (outside of a brief mention with art style). IMO Prime 3 is the weakest of the 3 so I want to know why you think it's the 2nd best.
That's a good point, I actually will make a video on Corruption as well and maybe go into more depth as to why I enjoy that game (in a guilty-pleasure sort of way). I sort of touch on it at 17:44, but should have went deeper into my thoughts on that game, I'll get to that! Regarding your first point, I definitely see what you mean about switching beams throughout the game whereas in other Metroid games you really just stick to the last beam. But isn't that the point of the Metroid formula? There are lots of great games like Halo where you're always switching up your weapons, but in Metroid you usually get super powered up and get an absolutely filthy weapon for the endgame. I LOVE getting the plasma and nova beam because they're so satisfying and strong I wouldn't want to use anything else at that point. Whereas in Echoes I'm still toggling between these same 2 beams that I'm completely bored of using. I think it's really a matter of preference, which is why Echoes is such a 50/50 divisive title.
Uhhhh. You didn’t only use plasma beam once you got it. Maybe if you were backtracking through some areas, but phazon mines punishes you for not changing beams and Metroids (barring the annoying fusion ones) still are better dealt with using ice beam and missile
@@mrsnulchI straight up tend to call prime 3 the second best in the trilogy. It has basically none of the issues the prior games had, but is much easier and way too restrictive to serve it’s much more linear format
Prime 2 has always been my favorite in the trilogy but from just playing the game I can 100% see why some people don't like it. The design of the game always stuck out to me because of how similar yet wildly different it is from the first game, kinda one of those things that you either love or hate.
Definitely. I think back when it was released, it was sort of underwhelming for many people and 80% of people seemed to prefer the first game. Whereas now, it's making a comeback and it's almost a 50/50 of people who prefer it or not. It definitely comes down heavily to perspective and preference.
If you love Quadraxis so much, WHY DON'T YOU MARRY HIM? To your credit I do mention at 5:33 that Echoes definitely has better bosses than Prime. So I admit that's a point for Echoes.
Ya know I agree. With pretty much all of this. But the atmosphere was so much more tense in Prime 2, that makes up for the tedium of the dark world for me - I’m always a little scared of it. Then the light suit comes in and I’m like “dayummmm”
I may be one of the few people who doesn't have any preference towards one of the Prime games. I love them all equally. They all have different play styles, different motives and maybe different shortcomings, but I can appreciate the games for what they are. I love Prime being basically a 3D version of Super Metroid. I love Echoes for being the Metroid answer to A Link to the Past with a tint of Starship Troopers. I love Corruption for giving insight into the Galactic Federation and the world Samus basically lives in. And I'm very keen to see what lies Beyond (see what I did there?)...
Oooh I do see what you did there, and I LIKE it. I have high hopes for Beyond but also some concerns, so I'll certainly make a video on it. I agree with you broadly that I love ALL the games in the series and will never say one of them is bad, but this video is my response to those who say Echoes is better that Prime 1. I need to take a stand against that haha
Prime 2 has always been my favourite, and I totally understand where you're coming from. At the risk of repeating stuff other people have said I'll just list my favourite things :D 1. As you said Prime 2 is more difficult and I love that. It demands you to engage with its world and mechanics, to meet it half way. The early to mid game really feels like a survival horror game where you have to conserve ammo/health and be on your toes to get through the dark zones. It's a lot of fun and you really feel a sense of mastery as you progress. It's pretty similar to Fusion in this regard. And I love Fusion. 2. Aside the key hunt, you're barely forced to back track for upgrades and it makes replays far smoother. And when you do have to back track they place an elevator that will take you directly to where you need to be. The game just flows a lot better for it. I dread Magmoor Caverns each time I replay Prime 1, but Prime 2 doesn't really have any moments like that for me. 3. I really enjoy the world design and atmosphere (in both worlds), and the duller colour scheme makes the world feel more... believable? Real? It's post-apocalyptic like Prime 1, but the damage is far more severe to the point where all the colour has drained from the world. It says so much with saying so little, and there's so much environmental story telling. 4. Unlike Prime 1 and Tallon IV; Samus' arrival on Aether isn't too late and she can still save the Luminoth. Listen the Chozo are cool and all, but they're always extinct. Speaking to multiple Luminoth and learning about them throughout the game was GREAT. It was exciting finding logs and bodies to scan, more so than in Prime 1. And I dare say it makes for a more interesting plot/premise than the previous game. At least for me. Anyway thank you for your retrospective I really enjoyed your perspective on the game!
Interesting review, I feel much of the same way regarding the MP2 as you did at the time I played, I recall liking it but not as much as the first game and yes, I also prefer Corruption over Echoes. It's just weird to me now that so many people have just turned around on Echoes, like with so much over reviled or lukewarm media that was hated at first but is starting to get fans now. I've even seen Deus Ex Invisible War get called "underrated" of all things. I thought maybe if MP2 got a remaster I could turn on the game but you are confirming many of the things I thought about it, the beam ammo was useless, the dark world was tedious to go through, and the fetch quest made Prime 1's seem like a less of a massive gut punch. Prime 3 was the only game that I recalled did this in a somewhat tolerable way. I think Powerslave Exhumed handled the fetch quest better than MP did, the 3D metroidvania that predates Prime 1, you at the very least are able to beat the game but you get a troll ending, so if you hate fetch quests and don't care about game endings then you can move on the something else. Also, while Magmoor Caverns was tedious, I found the crashed frigate to be more so. You got to go there so many times, and while the theme there is great, it starts to become diminishing returns. Overall, great vid.
This video has def earned a sub haha I love it. I'm actually surprised you highlighted atmosphere as one of Prime 2's weakpoint, I've often heard that it has one of the best atmospheres in the series, but even as someone who ranks it as the best Prime game, I actually do think 1 and 3 have a better atmosphere (and even soundtrack barring some bangers like sanctuary). It's a good video and makes me think a little more critically on my favorite 3D Metroid.
Thanks for the sub!! yeah I mentioned the atmosphere because while I do like some dark moody games (Hollow Knight, Majora's Mask, and Bloodborne), I find Echoes just looks so muddy and bland and it doesn't tickle me the way those games do. Very much a matter of preference I'd say. I can appreciate it's creepy atmosphere but I prefer the bright vistas of Prime 1 and 3.
That’s true. I mention at the beginning (2:20) that Echoes was initially very misunderstood but now is becoming more widely accepted, with a sizable group of players coming to consider it better than the first game. When this was happening I went back and played it with fresh eyes, and really enjoyed it more than I did at launch. But I still don’t think it’s as good as Prime 1 or 3 for the reasons I go into here, but I agree the game was misunderstood, and is still all around a great game. Just not my cup of tea, but it comes down to preference!
@@mrsnulch If prime 3 maintained beam switching instead of beam stacking it'd be pretty damn close to prime 1 imo. Beam stacking belongs to the 2D side scrollers and bring back Super Metroid ability toggle please 😞
When I first played this , i was disappointed at first due to the similarities at first then after completed it I appreciated it more and how different it was
So did I, I mention at around this at around 3:15 I do have a more favourable opinion of Echoes now than I used to after revisiting it, but the annoyances I express in this video still hold it firmly below 1 and 3 for me.
I do prefer Prime 1 and 3, but everytime I do get invested in a Prime 2 playthrough, it fools me into thinking it´s better at points. Maybe being harder and more obtuse makes it more engrossing when you´re in the thick of it, I don´t know...
Prime was my favourite game ever when I played it. Echoes was a day one purchase for me but I didn’t end up finishing it. I think the aesthetic threw me off and it was a bit restrictive in dark aether. But after I bought Trilogy I gave it another shot. At this point I would say it’s a better game. But its hub world is isnt as good as Tallon IV. I really do think that hurts it. Especially in such a dark and moody game. You need a place to rest and I never got that feeling in Echoes making it not only harder but more strenuous. But the game design is much better.
You and I almost have the same story here, the only difference is when I went back and replayed it, I DID enjoy it more than I did at launch, but I still wouldn't stretch far enough to say it's the better game. Totally fair if you think so, it does have some improvements in its design. But because of the things I mention in the video, I just find so many aspects of it really tedious and poorly designed, so for me 1 and 3 still come out on top. Echoes is a good game though!
@@mrsnulch yeah I didn’t take issues with your points because I think they’re correct and well thought out. It’s just personally if I had to take out the nostalgia factor for Prime 1 I think Echoes edges Prime but just barely. But great vid. Looking forward to your breakdown of Beyond 👌
To me Echoes was overall a better experience than Prime 1 the first time playing it due to the improvements you bring up, but it doesn't have the same replayability to me afterwards as the first one still does. Despite the backtracking Prime 1 moves at a way quicker pace for replaying it more often.
I think placing the environments from Prime 1 next to the ones from Prime 2 really speaks for itself. I appreciate that "forest, desert, lava, ice world" is in itself a sort of cliche - but it became one 'cause it provides a lot of variety. If done sloppily it might feel played out, but I think Metroid Prime uses it well and does have a thick atmosphere that does have more than just one mood. Weeell... Maybe the atmosphere in Magmoor Caverns isn't so thick, lol
There was one thing I really liked about Echoes. When you get to The Sanctuary. That place was awesome!! Why I'm not much of a fan of Echoes, was it felt like it was a Key Master game. Like, there were so many different "keys" that you needed to open doors. Super Metroid for instance, you needed a regular missile for pink doors, a super missile for green doors, and a power bomb for yellow doors. In Metroid 1, you needed a missile to open pink doors. But in Echoes, wow, it just seemed like the key game just kept on going. As if Designers said, 'You know what Metroid is all about? Finding the right missiles to unlock doors, so that's what Echoes will be'. It just wasn't interesting enough. And the world light world dark world theme just felt too much like I was playing Zelda 3 again. But again, Sanctuary. I would play that game again just to play through that area.
I agree across the board and have to admit that despite my criticisms of the game, Sanctuary is an easy contender for the coolest area in the entire series.
Ok. I’m probably the biggest fan of Echoes you’ll ever meet. As much as I loved Prime 1, Prime 2 was my personal favorite. It’s a much more hardcore Metroid experience, it’s Zelda’s A Link To the Past with the dark Aether, and I enjoyed the dark and foreboding atmosphere much more than Prime 1. It’s a darker game overall and I just loved the atmosphere and it was also a much more challenging game too. Not to mention it was a graphically more impressive game than Prime 1 pushing the GameCube to its limit, it’s no slouch of a sequel.
Hi Snulch! You have pretty solid arguments right there! You are making me think about how I love this game. I always liked prime 1 and 2 at around the same level. But now that I think about it, it's true that I always used to say like prime 1 better because even though I like the dark world like mad, prime 2 gets pretty heavy on the long term. However, the narrative of the game justify it, the fate of the planet is terrible, and the dark world has taken over. I believe this is why they implemented an ammunition system, to make the dark world feel like a restrictive world, you lack mouvement, you lack ammo, you lack a clear vision and understanding of it. It's not meant to be fun, you gotta be careful, and this is why I love it, because it's part of the immersion. That being said, what I see that you are pointing out really is about tweaking the features. So I would really appreciate a new version of this game with some of your ideas implemented, it would simply crush the two other titles (and I can't emphasize enough the word "crush"). As for Prime 3, and surely 4, I can't see myself enjoying them as much as prime 1&2 just because there are human-like forms teaming up with Samus. It gets me out of my immersion. I just like walking around like a lone wolf. Exploring an entire planet without any dialog, trying to figure out evrything just by myself, wow! It's just crazy for me, in a good way. Just me, creepy creatures that look cool, and outstanding music tracks that help me feel the environment, now that's chilling. Speaking of creepy creatures, prime 2 is so good on their design. A swarm of ing is what I'm dreaming of, so it would've been nice to have weaker creatures, but more. You would have big sequences of that, like Zerg rushes. You one shot them, but they deal damage. And on the other end, you can also put small groups of them everywhere, it doesn't takes 10 minutes to clear an area, but it makes the back track less like you are saying "talk to my hand" to every creatures around. Thanks for the video, I'd say let your arguments speak, sometimes you sound little bias, and it sound less powerful. Like when you put the four images from the different environments saying they look alike, I feel like you wanted too much to prove your point, that you cheated on that, showing really particular areas of the map that look alike, I could easily take four pictures, like the sand area, the rainforest, and say you are trying to trick me. What I understood of it is two things : that the atmosphere is too gloomy all the time, and that the different areas don't stand out enough from each others, I believe that was enough to convince me. Have a good day my friend!
Prime 2 has been my favorite game in the series for many years, and I want to lay out my reasons for why I think it's better than Prime one and three. For starters this game is moodier, more mazelike and by extension more challenging than the other two games. Metroid's gameplay is all about mastering mazes within mazes in total Isolation, and this games emphasis on moody atmosphere and challenge embodies what Metroid should be in my mind. Prime 2 expands the Metroid universe better than Prime one or three did. Exploring a world that isn't just another forgotten Chozo outpost is incredibly memorable, from their architecture, their weaponry, and their 3d hieroglyphic written language, these aliens and their world make this game stand out from all other Metroid games in an amazing way. I felt like Prime three tried to do this with the multiple worlds that it added, but on the other hand, all the human characters that game added heavily detracted from the isolating atmosphere that I feel makes Metroid great. The locations you visit in Prime 2 are also much more inspired than the collection of Super Mario themed locations you travel through in Prime 1. The Agon Wastes is clearly inspired by Arrakis from Dune, with its past as green paradise, but in the present, it is an uninhabitable desert filled with giant sand worms. Torvus Bog poses the greatest initial challenge of the main locations in the game, and obtaining the gravity boost midway through this area might be the single most satisfying moment in the series. Sanctuary Fortress is the most visually dazzling and mazelike area in the Metroid series, and the upgrades you get for completing this part of the game such as the Annihilator beam and the light suit make this area of the game probably my favorite location in Metroid. Prime three comes close to this game’s greatness in this aspect, but is dragged down by forcing you to interact with the federation. Adding the Luminoth and having the entire game on a new alien world with an interdimensional war between moths and spiders opened all sorts of possibilities for environmental design, and in Prime 2 the art direction is sublime and beyond creative. Prime 2 has the most jaw dropping rooms you'll ever see in the series, and for this reason I hope Prime 4 takes notes from this game. I would be a little more than slightly disappointed if in Prime 4 we go to another Chozo world with the same familiar motifs slightly remixed in an artistically safe way, when there is so much more possible that can be done with Metroid's art direction. As for the typical gripes people have with this game, here are my responses: "I don't like that the beams have ammo in this game." Adding beam ammo to Prime 2 enhances the difficulty and forces combat to be more strategic, which adds a degree of thematic substance for a series about losing everything and having to build yourself back up totally on your own. If you use the correct weapon for the job using a little experimentation, you'll find that you'll almost never run out of ammo anyway. "The light suit and dark suit are ugly." I don't agree with this, and these suits were designed by moth people, not human beings. Their fashion standards are probably a bit different from ours. These suits are also a hell of a lot more memorable than the PED suit in prime 3, or the Phazon suit in Prime 1 which is just another reskin of the varia suit. "This game is too challenging and some of the bosses are too hard." Number one, get good. Two, this is an aspect that all the best Metroid games have in common, so I don't see why this game gets singled out. "The transitions between dimensions take up too much time." I actually agree with this, but I don't think this is enough to make Prime 2 worse than Prime 1.
Those are some solid arguments, some I agree with some I don't! Starting with your finishing points, anyone who says the game is "too challenging" or the "dark suit and light suit are ugly" is probably insane haha. I think Echoes has the best challenge balance of the 3 games, and I love the suits. I would disagree about ammo adding anything to the combat or making it more strategic for the reasons I mention in the video. I personally just found it tedious, but I see why some may like that tension they feel knowing they might run out. I think the combat challenge in a Metroid game should come down to the enemy's design, not limiting the amount of shots Samus can fire until her damage gets nerfed. You make good arguments for the 3 regions, I never caught the Arrakis parallel. I just think the areas all sort of blur together in a grim muddy soup for me sometimes ,and this may come down to the dark world. Sanctuary is definitely the stand-out region and one of the best in the series. Regarding your overall preference of Aiether over Tallon IV when it comes to the lore and such, I have to hard-disagree on that one. It is cool to meet the Luminoth and see their struggle against the Ing, but I find the lore in the first game far more interesting. I love learning about the Chozo after they've already abandoned the planet, sort of showing their rise to genius then their utter collapse as a meteor ate away at their new home, and you can see the beauty of Tallon IV starting to wither away. I don't think Aiether is as interesting but this is FULLY a matter of preference. Either way, solid comment and thanks for the view
I disagree with your complaints about this game. First and for most yes while the ammo system and the pacing in terms of the order you get your weapons was initially a weird new addition for me I actually liked the fact that you get the dark and light beams early while slowly working your way up towards getting the third annihilator beam. Having an ammo counter in my opinion added more depth to the combat as it basically forced you to use alternate beam weapons sparingly and take advantage of their damage output against certain enemy types while also discovering specific weaknesses and advantages that you can use the same beam type against the same type of enemy (i.e using the dark beam charged shot is effective at quickly disposing those ever so troublesome dark pirate commandos which you will encounter often later in the game). Not being able to spam and stick with your favorite beam type for a majority of the game really forced you to get creative with your strategy and save up as much ammo for future boss encounters which could get very difficult later on. Not to mention The Annihilator Beam was actually a pretty great and useful final weapon you get towards the end of the game. Sure it may not be able to one shot certain enemies with a charged shot like the Plasma Beam in Prime 1 but it had the same damage output for it's noncharged shots combined with the fact that The Annihilator Beam fires much faster than the Plasma Beam. There's also the fact that the Annihilator Beam's shots tend to home in on enemies and the one thing I love so much about it is it has the ability to energize crystals and beacons with dark energy which will draw Ing to their inevitable deaths due to them also being energized with light energy which the creatures of the dark world hate and since there are usually loads of crates lying around in nearly every room ammo management for the Annihilator Beam was never really a huge issue for me. Yes the color variants for the environments weren't as diverse as previous Metroid games but I loved the fact that it still gave off the feeling of going to one completely different environment to another. Ranging from the dry dessert of Agon Wastes. The wetlands of Torvus Bog and The Mechanical Tron like city structure of Sanctuary Fortress really felt like some new and interesting additions to the series. I actually liked the dark and horrific atmosphere of Dark Aether. Being able to only go from crystal/beacon to crystal/beacon while also being forced to fight the Ing in order to prevent damage to your health from the poisonous atmosphere of dark aether until you got the light suit really kept you on your toes and gave the game sort of a survival horror like feel. Really the only complaint I have to agree with is the sky temple key hunt. As if the hunt for the chozo artifacts wasn't confusing having to search for the 8 keys in order to fight the final boss was a major pain in the ass. Having to scan every deceased Luminoth and go from the light to dark world felt tedious and time consuming. Other than that I see Prime 2 as a worthy successor to Prime 1 in every aspect and is currently my number 1 favorite game in the Prime trilogy to date. I haven't yet finished Prime 3 so my full thoughts on that game are still up for debate.
Did you use Annihalator Beam on the light crystals? It makes the ing walk into the light field and instantly die. Made the ending fetch quest a LOT more tolerable. I'm definitely an Echoes defender although I didn't play much of MP1, I somehow died on Flashgrah on normal and decided to give up early.
It's funny how every problem you listed is a big pleasure for me. I understand your harsh opinion on that game but for me it's the perfect sequel. I think the ammo system is clever and would be way too overpowered if it was infinite. The annihilator is my favorite beam, it's wasteful but you can replenish it everywhere with small creatures and chests because it drops both beam ammos. Also it's extremely satisfying to defeat the Imperor Ing with it. What i like the most is the level design of the main areas. You stay there and finish it completely before going to the next area, so it feels like a big Zelda dungeon. Torvus Bog and Sanctuary Fortress are my favorites in the entire series. There are few backtracking moments, but they are also clever implemented. The frightening atmosphere of the dark aether gets me everytime and the Luminoth lore is very interesting and engaging. And i don't mind the fetch quest at the end. For me it's the perfect opportunity to collect 100% of the items and go arround with my fully upgraded equipment and feel overpowered. Still a great video, don't get me wrong.
Well said, it takes great character to sit through a video you disagree with and provide such great feedback. I can't quite see eye-to-eye with you on the annihilator ever feeling satisfying, I find the plasma and nova beams both way more juicy to shoot. But I definitely see what you mean with the areas, and to give credit where it's due, Torvus and Sanctuary both absolutely slap. The central dark/light puzzle in Torvus is pretty memorable to me, although I do find it to get a bit tedious, but Sanctuary is awesome all the way through. Probably one of the best areas in the series. I also don't mind the quest at the end personally, but I still consider it bad game design as it would be more rewarding if it was optional in my opinion, and not all players would enjoy doing that so deep into the game. But that's definitely up for debate.
I remember that one of my biggest disappointments with Prime 2 when it came out was it’s music. I absolutely loved the Prime 1 soundtrack, so hearing the more ambient to almost monotonous music at times in Prime 2’s Dark World took a lot of my enthusiasm.
I will say, at least having only two beams for most of the game in theory would cut down on the swapping, something I found pretty annoying by the end of Prime 1. Kinda wish doors had functioned like they do with missiles where you only have to use the proper shot once.
I finished Echoes for the very first time today and I agree with pretty much everything you said. It is a good game, but I didn't have nearly as much fun with it as with Prime 1 - to the point where I almost dropped the game because of the Spider and the Power Bomb Guardians. The lack of colour in the game also made it very difficult to get some sense of orientation because everything looks the same. The bland colours combined with the annoying enemies and hard bosses made this game often very painful to play through. I didn't even bother doing the fetch quest as the game intended, I looked it up on the internet and was done with it. Despite this, I think I will enjoy Echoes more on a second playthrough but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon 😅 I'm tackling Prime 3 now.
I'm not saying it should be taken out, I also enjoy the fetch quests in both games because I find it fun to search for the artifacts and read the clues. I'm saying that it should be optional, with a secret ending / reward for curious players. They shouldn't be a mandatory roadblock to beating the game, because not everyone likes revisiting the entire map at that stage in the game. Both quests were added soley to pad out the runtime, and would be more exciting if they were a part of a secret.
@@mrsnulchthe clues make the prime 2 fetch quest seem confusing, but in actuality most of the keys are hidden in areas that are only accessible at the very end w the light suit and annihilator beam. u can just ignore the hints and ull find the keys on ur own super easily.
Your review of this game is spot on. I really do like Prime 2 and thinks it's an underappreciated game to give it credit for. But I always prefer Prime 1 & 3 more. For the longest time, I can't think of why I liked them more than 2. But your review perfectly sums it up. It can be stressful & tedious to complete and I have played other Metroid games that were difficult. Like Samus Returns & Dread. But I found those acceptable because of it's 2D perspective, they weren't an slog and were more satisfying. Even with the Harder Mode or Dread Mode in Metroid Dread. Prime 2 takes alot of pressure and some like the Boost Guardian, Alpha Blogg & Spider Guardian ( GameCube version ) are such an pain in the butt. Which I'm surprised you didn't complaint about. But like you said, it is an experimental game and while they succeed for the most part, other low points could've been improved or tweaked. I agree it's the weakest of the trilogy. But that don't mean it's bad. Dare I say it's pretty good even. I just prefer the other Prime games more and whether you think it's better than this or worst or whatever is all subjective. Excellent job.
Thanks so much, and it's funny you say that. The bosses you mention drove me nuts and I considered mentioning them. This footage was captured on the gamecube and I died 4 times to the spider guardian, almost threw my controller out the window. With that said, I still think the challenge Echoes presents with its bosses was a net improvement over Prime 1, and didn't want to muddy things too much by going into its more brutal bosses. And I agree, I know this video comes off like I hate Echoes, but I still think its a great game. Just really not to my taste, and not able to compete with the other two for me.
As far as reception of a game goes, I think it's always gonna flip the other way once enough time has passed. Eventually the only ones interested in talking about that old game are either the hardcore enthusiasts or the ones who it made a positive impression on growing up(and who are now old enough to make "Echoes Is Peak" or whatever videos). These guys then highlight qualities of the game that might attract others who also think that sounds cool. It doesn't mean the initial reception of whatever game in question was wrong, but it does mean it found its niche over time, which is only a good thing. Having said that, I appreciate a video like this from someone who did have one of those childhood experiences but also didn't have his mind blown at the time. That's how I feel about a lot of games I didn't enjoy back in the day, that have gotten a "revival" in later years. If only die-hard fans of a game highlight the game, then the perspective on it is gonna get increasingly skewed. Fans don't have any obligation to temper their praise with objections that other people have, but it's nice to get some sober takes as compliments to those videos, and I think your objections in the video were reasonable. You didn't come across as hating the game either, to me at least. This is maybe a bit of a non-sequitur, but I think _Record of Lodoss War: Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth_ did that dark/light Ikaruga ammo thing in a good way, by making it two forms of fire and wind that you swap between. It's just one of many systems in the game, but it consistently gives you something to think about in what would otherwise be a relatively standard metroidvania, and it does more than just increase damage to certain foes - for example having one equipped makes you immune to damage of that type. That's partiularly engaging when you're fighting two enemies at the same time, one of each element. Might be worth checking out if you wanna see a good implementation of what they were going for!
That's actually an interesting point, it has me wondering if Echoes has actually had a "renaissance" this last decade, or if the discourse around the game is limited to people who liked it, while those who didn't don't think about it so much. I think it still experienced some sort of revival as I have seen accounts of people who didn't like the game initially liking it more recently, but in general I think it's still the general consensus that it was a fairly weak sequel. Either way, glad you enjoyed the video and very interesting points!!
Glad Im not only one who feels Prime 2 was the weakest. Most of your criticisms are the same ones I had with it. Now if I can only get people on board with the understanding that the first person perspective in general was always a bit problematic and limits 3D Metroid's potential to have faster paced satisfying platforming and movement mechanics along side good combat. I mean my problem with the Prime series in general is if I want good movement and exploration I'll just go play the 2D games and if I want good shooting I'll go play Halo; Prime does neither of these things well and it all stems from trying to force metroid mechanics around a first person perspective that they were clearly never well suited for. Sure its "innovative", but in the same way you could slap a USB powered toaster onto your phone. It can be done, but is it actually practical and sensible?
The majority of folks in the comments have been team Echoes so it's great that we're on the same page there! As for your second point, that's a pretty bold take! I agree that they sacrificed a lot of the gameplay and Samus' mobility with the switch to 3D, and the raw gameplay is a lot more "tame" than the 2D games. For gameplay I would say Dread is the top dog. With that said, I really like the first-person view and slower pace because it really makes you feel immersed on this alien planet and allowed them to really show off the Gamecube's power while still respecting the exploration of a Metroid game. But I agree that they definitely left a lot of tight mechanics behind to do it. It's a matter of preference. I recommend checking out the video "Where Metroid Went Wrong and Right Again" by Nerrel, he makes a cool point that definitely sort of won me over to the slower side. But I see what you're saying 100%
interesting. I used to dislike prime 2 as a teenager as it was too scary for me. couldn't get through the opening section. but with every replay of the series I ended up liking it more and more. it's now my top prime game. my best friend always liked echoes best and actually dropped prime 3 because it was so bad.
It did take many steps backward as a Metroid game and was more linear, but it still outsold Prime 2 and got better reviews. I also prefer it personally as it has better upgrades / progression and environments, and I prefer the narrative as well. It's a weird one because I shouldn't enjoy it as much as I do lol
@@mrsnulch Personally speaking I find the choice to split prime 3 into segmented planets that you still backtrack between to be far more egregious pacing wise than prime 2 which mostly kept you in one zone until you were done with it (it broke this pacing on 2 occasions). Prime 3 you'll be done with bryo then have to go back there just to progress in elysia, same with the pirate homeworld, you'll have to go back to elysia and there are far more rooms to go through when backtracking. Prime 3 also kinda just goes back to more traditional metroid stuff as opposed to a lot of wholesale new ideas in prime 2. Also the challenge kinda dissapears on the default difficulties. Motion controls make the game age a little poorly in terms of playing it on anything but original hardware. There are things in prime 3 I do like, how they finally added a way to mark collectibles on the map, something the series had since super but just didn't do in prime for some reason. Keeping space jump from the beginning helps with platforming, beams stacking is nice and cuts down on menuing, I think that's about it though. It's a good game, every game in the trilogy is but it's just easier to go back to prime 1 and 2 for me. I've been doing replays of prime 1 recently and jeez did I ever forget how monotonous some of the progression is. From phendrana through magmoor to overworld for space jump, back through magmoor to phendrana up to spider ball, then back through magmoor to ruins for ice beam, then back through magmoor to phendrana for gravity suit, then back through magmoor to overworld to get to the crash site. That alone is far more tedious than back to temple grounds and a few rooms for seeker missiles. Or all the way to bottom of bog for power bomb then a few rooms back to sanctuary. Prime 3 only does this twice like prime 2, but the lengths of the backtrack are similar to prime 1 which is what makes it harder to go back to. All personal complaints, I still love these games, but when you replay them back to back to 100% them it's just something you tend to pick up on. All the loading times in between transitions to different planets and landing sites also kills the pace in prime 3. Door loading times seem to take longer in my experience as well.
That's actually a good point, the story doesn't tie in with the rest. Although to be fair (and I can't believe I'm now about to defend Echoes against you here given the fact that I just made a whole video bashing it), I think Echoes successfully shows just how much damage Phazon can lay on a planet. It doesn't fully tie into the other games, but by the time you get to Corruption, you've seen two planets get wrecked by Phazon so in that sense it does contribute.
First uh, before I give my thoughts lol. Good video, really like your editing, and refreshing to hear a different take because Prime 2 is a recent fav for the fanbase. You made a really good vid here. Ngl though uh, I hard disagree with your take on the beam ammo LOL. I do know it's a common criticism at the time, but generally speaking it is one of THE reasons fights feel more engaging because it gives an extra resource to worry about. In Prime 1 Super Missiles are the dominant strat, and it takes up a ton of ammo so I don't see what makes it much different. As for the annihilator beam....lol. So others brought up it actually does really good damage. But it's homing properties are really nice, and even better it helps to make dark aether exploration more comfy. You mentioned the light beam nuking ing when they touch light bubbles. Where the annihilator beam creates a variant that makes Ing want to run straight into them. Paired with the light suit it makes exploring Dark Aether a non-issue. Maybe you got the impression it does less damage because the enemies you sampled were spongey. Also about the box thing, I was like 9 when I first played this, and noticed using ammo on the boxes gave me beam ammo lol. As for the key quest at the end....I would agree with you if Prime 2 hadn't given you a lot more options for getting around the world. The light suit lets you travel between energy controllers, essentially creating a 4-way elevator. Add onto that how each region has elevators to the other regions, it's world design is actually super smart. For the record, Prime 1 is one of my favorite games of all time (right behind Majora which is funny) but for me I only like Prime 2 marginally less. Actually when I was younger I received Prime 1&2 at the same time and played them at the same time. I generally seemed to enjoy Prime 2 more but Prime 1's atmosphere was stronger for sure. I think for me Prime 2 has the far more engaging gameplay and I think that's a huge deal. Atmosphere is important but so is the video game part. In fact, imma go ahead and say it. Imo Prime 3 is easily the weakest game of the three. It has a lot of great spectacle and art direction, but it has by far the weakest gameplay of the three imo. Most of that coming down to the world-design being the weakest of the three and hyper mode snapping it in two. Not to say there's not great stuff Prime 3 does. I think the story is really cool and epic. I do love that spectacle, and the pointer controls are amazing. I love using those controls so much, and the grapple beam is a lot of fun. But idunno there's just....Something about prime 3's combat that doesn't click with me and it mostly revolves around hypermode. But that's just my opinion lol. Glad you seem to like it a lot more than me. Anyway hope you don't take this too personally. Obviously if you don't like the ammo system, all good! Just providing my own perspective, and why I think this game is kino. Have a good one :)
Here is my take. Prime 2 does do many things better than prime one and could very easily be considered to be a superior game, but the faults prime 2 does have hold it back. My main issues are as follows: 1. Agon wastes is a bad first level. It feels barren and the lack of music makes it feel unpleasant to travel through. Chozo ruins doesnt have this problem bc the music, even though it starts out with a more ambient feel, will evolve into a funky bop that makes traversing the area fun and exciting. Also chozo ruins feels lived in, like you are exploring a place people actually used to live in, while agon feels like you are just running round a desert some people attempted to live in but gave up shortly after starting. 2. I like the idea of the dark and light beams being more powerful than your typical beam powers, and the ammo system is semi justified but flawed. I always thought a better system would be to have your l and d ammo regenerate slowly over time and it could regenerate faster when you got the beam ammo expansions. Because of the ammo system, using the annihilator beam and the beam combos are just too impractical. Sure I can defeat enemies faster with those than any other way, but at the cost of utterly decimating my reserves. You will use like 80% of your l and d ammo just to clear a room of space pirates with the annihilator beam, or every beam combo shot will take 25% of your reserves. 3. I completely agree that the pacing for acquiring the beams is bad. You dont get the annihilator beam till you practically have nothing left to do but get sky temple keys and open a few doors.
I fully agree with you and that's a great point about Chozo Ruins vs Agon Wastes, I almost wish I had mentioned that haha. Chozo Ruins is one of my favourite areas ever because you really feel like the Chozo lived and learned there. You can see their nursery, great hall, reflecting pool, etc. You could almost picture them strolling through those halls, discussing astronomy and philosophy, before they suddenly had to scram. Whereas Agon Wastes is just completely in ruins, a little less interesting and not much going on. And cool point about beam ammo slowly regenerating, then maybe you could speed up regeneration by mucking enemies with the opposite beam. Now that would be a system I could get behind.
The thing is I thought I would feel that way revisiting it, but coming back to it years later and after having a taste for harder games, I still don't love it for the reasons described in the video. I'm sure some people came around on this game, but I can't quite say I'm one of them!
@@mrsnulch Well I have replayed them all for more times that I can count, and 2 is the one that ages the best. But perhaps it's a me thing, time will say it
You nailed every point on the head. The weapon implementation was quite poor. I felt like I was shooting aliens with paintballs for as effective as they were. The weapons were basically door openers rather than a futuristic arsenal. The "Annihilater" beam was such a disappointment I had to shut the game off for a few days before continuing on the obtuse fetch quest. Another weapon deficiency is the missle launcher that couldn't be spammed with the power beam anymore making firing missles sluggish. I understand that the dark world is supposed to be opposing and dreary but I felt the music was draining on me personally turning the Dark world into a chore rather than a spooky space adventure. Onwards!
on the contrary, the weapon implementation is excellent for the depth it brings to combat. Their introduction is also exceptionally well designed. In order to obtain the two main beams used for most of the game, you must first obtain space jump during your first foray into the dark world. Doing so pits you against a gambit of quite tanky and challenging encounters: the dark pirates, one ing, and the space guardian. Your peashooter power beam really does feel like a paintball gun against these dark world enemies, and normal pirates are a bit tanky themselves. This makes it all the more satisfying to get the dark and light beams, because they absolutely shred enemies when applied correctly. Directly after receiving the light beam, you progress to an ing fight for a dark temple key, showing you that a single charged shot and a few uncharged shots can dispatch these previously tanky enemies. A single uncharged shot can instantly kill these tanky enemies if you catch them in a safe zone. Hopping back to the light world, you shortly encounter a new type of pirate enemy that can be dispatched in just a couple of uncharged dark beam shots. I'm not sure how you got the impression that they were weak unless you were using them incorrectly. The best thing is that it's not just simply type matching like in prime, certain combinations render some enemies fodder. Though you would expect only light beam or annihilator to he effective against darklings (ing possessed light world enemies), some are still vulnerable to the freezing effect of a charged dark beam shot, making them able to be killed with 5 dark beam ammo and a missile. Bosses and encounters consistently provoke you to use everything at your disposal throughout the entire game, *without forcing it* by giving you frequent encounters with enemies simply immune to all other damage types like prime does. Echoes uses a subtle approach that encourages and rewards experimentation, as opposed to color matching for babies. Learning what works effectively is optional (clearly, since you somehow came away thinking the beams were weak), which is just the kind of freedom I'd want from a first person metroid, given the necessary greater aggression and emphasis on combat that comes with that transition. Contrast that with prime 1 and you see that the weapon progression is something like: power beam is all i have -> i have wave beam, but it does less damage than power beam against almost every enemy I'm seeing, for a minor benefit of briefly stunning some enemies (if charged) -> I have super missiles, I'll just use those because they one shot most everything ‐ > i have ice beam, a charged shot plus one missile kills almost everything instantly -> I have plasma beam, everything dies in a charged shot except bosses and the single magmoor enemy that's resistant to plasma but can even be damaged by beams at all realistically, you can even skip ice beam step if you're collecting a lot of missiles, super missiles are just better because they track. The beams in prime are designed as if they should stack like in 2d games, there's very little reason to use them after getting the next upgrade except to open doors and for arbitrary colored space pirates immune to all other damage. In echoes, there are multiple enemy + beam combinations that are similarly effective such that you have options throughout the entire game. In prime 1, there is generally one optimal attack (charged plasma beam), if you use any other after you get it, you're wasting time and maybe missiles too. It's superficially satisfying to melt an eternally respawning aeropirate with a charged plasma shot, but on your 10th run through the room, it's primarily just an annoyance that they're there. One failing of both games is the charge combos.. super missiles are really the only ones that aren't basically a guaranteed waste of missiles/and ammo in both games. Ice spreader is useful, but its functionality is just a reskinned super missile that costs more ammo and freeses for a little bit. Darkburst is a very cool design but rarely hits. The rest are kinda wastes of time and resources
I love Prime 2 but its got issues for sure. High highs and low lows. Aeither might be quite a bit more bland than Tallon 4, but its lore might be more interesting. I love the Luminoth and their struggle against the ING.
The ING! Lol. And interesting, I see where you're coming from but I don't find Aeither more interesting, Tallon 4 is still my favorite planet ever. I love learning about the Chozo and how they had to abandon it, I just think it has more interesting lore. But I see what you mean since you get a bit more "personal" with the Luminoth, you actually get to meet one and see how their fallen soldiers view the Ing, so that is pretty cool I must admit. Wait I actually do admit that at 23:57!
I’m playing Echoes for the first time now, and while the mechanics take getting used to, I’m hoping the Dark suit I just got makes navigating the dark world less nerve wracking. As for the world itself, yeah I like Talon IV from Prime 1 more, but I can still appreciate something more thematically cohesive in its own way. Not my preference, I usually like my video games to take me on a journey through many different landscapes(Mario 3 > World, literally any 3D game over Sunshine, etc), but I can still enjoy the other approach when done well, and the danger Echoes’ world presents keeps the excitement factor up despite the samey looking environments.
I played it for the first time recently too! It's a great game, although I defintely agree that the world is pretty overbearing. I sometimes have to kind of psyche myself up a for an Echoes play session.. From a statistical viewpoint, Dark Suit reduces your damage from in the dark world from 6 every second to roughly 1 every second. However, it won't feel like much of an advantage because the levels will be designed around that from here on out. Boost Guardian is a good example of that. If you thought Dark World was nerve-wracking so far, now you have to fight a boss with no light crystals, so you're taking damage the whole time! The key is to pelt him with as many charged light beam shots as you can. Dodge his boost ball when he transforms (it does 100 damage on GCN IIRC) and bomb him quickly and accurately when he transforms into a puddle so you can attack him again. He's a huge difficulty spike, and you'll only have at most five extra energy tanks before you fight him, so good luck!
@@IntrestingYTObserver Is Boost Guardian the one I’ve heard horror stories about? Or is that another morph ball ability. And yeah that stinks that the game just ratchets up the distance between light to account for the Dark Suit. Bleh
@@robertlauncherYep, he's the one everybody complains about. He'll give you the boost ball when you kill him, which isn't an easy task especially your first time through. tbh Prime 2 is hard, and the puzzles are complex, but it's immensely satisfying to overcome it all. Especially when you get the final suit (which I won't spoil, although if you watched the video you'll probably know anyway.)
@@IntrestingYTObserver I hate to disappoint, but I saw a shadowy looking boss, busted out the light beam, and guess who’s allergic to the point of making the fight a joke? To be fair, the boss still did take a decent amount of health, so I get why it would be hard if you didn’t use that
@@robertlauncher You beat him? Very nice. I beat him first time too but he got me to like 219/599 health IIRC, it's a stressful fight. And yeah, if you don't know the light beam does the most damage I can imagine him being frustrating. I see why he's complained about. Goood luck on the rest of the game, especially Spider Guardian. You won't have to fight him for a while but he's another commom stumbling block for someone's first playthrough. I'm actually thinking of doing a hard mode replay myself where everything does 2x damage and you deal 50% less. Y'know, because Prime 2 wasn't hard enough already😅
I mean it's okay to have the wrong opinion. ;P Just kidding, But I still think Prime 2 is quite batter than 1 The world is more interconnected and the backtracking is kept to a minimum. I love the dark and light theme and I found the addition of an ammo limit interesting. But I'm also a massive fan of survival horror and this game was basically a "survival-horror-lite". Also I've never had a problem with the artifact hunt to begin with because it is an extension of the Metroid gameplay: find stuff, but now you're at full power.
LOL I find with Echoes it's a 50/50 war between those who think it's the best of the 3, and those who think it's the worst. Regarding your points about the backtracking and interconnectivity, I agree for sure that's an improvement Echoes made. For the ammo limit being interesting and the game being a survival-horror-lite, I can't quite agree with you on that for the reasons I mention in the video. In a survival horror like Resident Evil, if you run out of ammo you're in deep trouble. So there is genuine suspense and strategy required to conserve your resources. In Echoes, if you run out of ammo you're not in trouble at all, the game just gets boring and annoying using the power beam until you find more. You can also always get more by just shooting boxes or backtracking to a recharge station. So the concept falls completely flat for me and I find all the beams boring. This is of course a matter of preference. As for the artifact hunt, I also enjoy those sections and like finding them, it's classic. My main argument is that they should be optional and have a secret reward (cool weapon, hidden ending, etc) because making them mandatory makes them less interesting and breaks the pace of the game. Either way, you make good points and thanks for the watch!!
@@mrsnulch I never found myself running out of ammo to be honest. And if I did I would simly use other sub weapons that are stronger than the regular beam. I think it's a matter of finding the right use for each beam. And when I said Survival-Horror lite I am more talking about the aspect of fight or flight in general. Sometimes it is better to just leave the enemie behind. No point in fighting hunter Ing when they don't even do much to stand in your way. Just light up a light sphere with the light beam and move on.
Hahah thanks for being sub'd my dude! I'd love to make a video on that, but there are a few issues. One is that I never played the 3rd one on the 3DS, so my knowledge is incomplete. Two is that I haven't played the first one in many years and lost my gamecube disc! But I will try to get my hands on it before October - that's when I plan to release my "spooky" videos, and I'd be remiss if a Luigi's Mansion retrospective didn't make that list haha. Cheers!
Yeah, after seeing your video, MP2 wasnt good as people usually tells. I personally prefer MP3 over it. I think Nintendo did well in doing MP4 right after remaster of MP1. If MP2 or MP3 get remaster, that would be at switch 2.
Wow you're really butthurt about the beam weapons... I knew about the crates ever since I was a kid, and I never ran out of ammo... Really didn't bother me at all, and I was able to max out the ammo towards the end so running out with annihilator beam was never a problem
I wouldn't say I'm butthurt, but I have no problem saying that I think the ammo was a bad addition to the Metroid franchise. It doesn't add anything fun to the game since you can just stock up on it by shooting boxes and never run out. And if you do somehow run out, say by experimenting with the cool new combo attacks you get later in the game like sonic boom, then it's just tedious to restock. I also think the Annihilator beam is a weak weapon that isn't fun to use, and by the time you get it there's only a couple hours left in the game. I just don't like the way Echoes handles its weaponry in general, I prefer the loadout from any other Metroid game.
@@mrsnulch I do think your idea of doling them out slower was a good idea. The light beam is actually too powerful against the dark ing to get in the beginning of the game, it does actually make more sense to get it somewhere in the middle
Hmmhhh, I liked Prime 2: echoes more than Prime 1. The atmosphere just keeps you on edge in Dark Aether in a way Prime 1 just never really does. The only "negative" someone could trip up on is finding the skytemple keys, however even that is something I didn't find unenjoyable because of the lightsuit keeping it from being annoying to further explore Dark Aether.
I'm a big fan of Prime 2, but considering you're playing the trilogy it's much easier than the original release and the spider ball guardian is much more annoying without the spring ball
Echoes is my favorite game but I more or less agree with every one of your points. I guess I just feel differently about how much those issues matter, especially in comparison to Prime 1. Great video
Thanks for the respectful comment, mad respect! I also totally see why many people are considering Echoes the better game. It sort of comes down to what you value and how it all clicks together for you. I still do like Echoes, but the things I mention in the video personally frustrate me to the point where I just can't put it ahead of the others!
Honestly I agree with this mostly. Like Echos is still a good game but out of the trilogy deffo the weakest. Though I disagree on the Annihilator Beam being a disappointment in most aspects. Except in looks. And instead say the bosses after you get it don’t really promote you using both other than one phase of Emperor Ing. Another thing I think makes the Dark World unbearable is how fast it drains your health without the dark suit and how long it takes you to get to it and then to get to the light suit. It is so unbalanced. Though I do have two criticisms that I would put on. The Grenchlers can die. They are more annoying than the Sheegoth and they are pretty much the same enemy. And the boss lineup is kind of forgettable minus the three temple bosses, Dark Samus’ fights, Emperor Ing and the worst to boss fights the Spider Guardian and Boost Guardian that can eat lemons and burn. The rest of the bosses aren’t that good or are forgettable if you haven’t played in a while. 3 imo has the best boss line up and that is even with having Mogenar or however you spell its name
You're actually right, I didn't want to get too into that, but I also would agree Corruption has the best bosses. And to go further, I think Prime 4 will have the best bosses in the series. Since it's coming out in the Fromsoft era where challenging and intense bosses are once again mainstream, I'm really hoping for 4 to combine that sweet Metroid Prime gameplay with some insane bosses that surpass all 3 games in the trilogy so far.
Lol I was playing prime remastered yesterday and finally got past that same part in phazon mines. It was the reason I bounced off the game for so long. But man I'm really enjoying the game better now that's behind me
Some good points. I still disagree. I do think the ammo and beams work better in combat than primes. But I can tell it did really bother you, so I'll put it down to difference in preference. Also, the dark world being difficult is not the same as mindlessly going back and forth in the same area over and over. That just makes the game tedious. Prime 2 does have a worse game ending fetch quest than Prime. The clues were more obtuse than Primes, and getting the keys were more bland to get than the different solutions of Prime.
I did enjoy Metroid Prime 2, and i think it was a necessary sequel, but man... In so many moments this game made me frustrated.... Dark Aether was not really fun to explore because i was getting killed by breathing, and some enemies were far too anoying to deal with. When i finished the Torvus Bog, i remember i was tired of the game, but when i arrived in the Sanctuary Fortress, i really started to love the game, but the first 2 areas were... harder than they should have been in my opinion. It has some of the best boss fights in the series, but some of the worse too. Yeah, the Spider Guardian can burn in the dephs of hell and i would be happy. The Dark Samus Battles are pretty cool tho and Quadraxis was awesome. I think Prime 2 has huge ups, and really low downs. It's a good game overall, but i think it went too hard many times.
Yeah, I'm with you there. I know it comes off like I really hate the game in this video, but I do think it has some strong suits. Sanctuary is one of the coolest areas in the series. But I'm glad we're on the same page about the dark world being a slog and the boring atmosphere, those are two big things that hold the game down for me.
@@mrsnulch I don't think the dark world is boring per se, but having to explore when my health is constantly being drained is just far too hard for it's on good. Like, after i got the Light Suit, i had a lot of fun exploring these areas, but before that, is was a pain to go through. I also think that the atmosphere is good, but comparing to Primes 1 and 3 (SPECIALLY THE GFS VALHALLA) it feels pretty repetitive having to backtrack it before getting the light suit. Oh, and i hate the Spider Guardian
Played this game for the first time 2 years ago and I wanted to pull my hair out all the way through. You put into words extremely well why this one didn't land for me, and even offered some new perspective I didn't have. Great video
The majority of the commenters so far have been team Echoes, so it's great to have a comrade on my side! I found Echoes insufferable when I first played it as well. I definitely appreciate it more now, but for the reasons mentioned in the video I still find it inferior to the others. Cheers!
@@undergalaxy775 I wonder if Retro thought that Prime 1 was a bit easy, so they used limited ammo to make it harder???? So the player can't over power enemies , but instead focus on survival?????
@@orangeslash1667 that could be, though funnily enough that didnt even register as a flaw in my mind until the video mentioned it. I merely found it overly repetitive and confusing
@@undergalaxy775 Fun Fact: Prime 3 was originally suppose to be bigger, but hardware limitations prevented them from doing so. The end result became the exact opposite of Prime 2.
Prime 1 is hard, Prime 2 is easy, and I am the only sane one. Really though I feel like I'm living in a parallel world sometimes when watching these prime reviews, I died to pretty much every Prime 1 boss at least once, if not multiple times, and I only died 2 times total during my Prime 2 playthrough, I found the game to be overall so much easier in basically every way, it was more fun I'll agree with that, I normally do like a challenge but Prime 1 bosses tended to take way too long to kill and often turned into boring slog-fests, Prime 2 fights generally had a better flow to them, even if they were a bit easy for my tastes. Maybe it's cuz I've so far only played each game once, but that's been my experience with Prime's difficulty. Oh and I found Prime 3 to be in the middle, harder than Prime 2 but easier than Prime 1. I agree with a lot of your criticisms here regarding Prime 2 (expect for those regarding exploration, but I'm the type that loves to comb every nook and cranny looking for secrets), overall though I'd still rate it above Prime 3, even if lower than Prime 1
I love both games, but for different reasons. From a more technical/"objective" standpoint, MP2 maintains pretty much everything that made MP1 good, and improves progression through the game by fixing the particularly egregious backtracking journeys of MP1, but it suffers from some glaring difficulty spikes, most notably the Boost Guardian, and the first trips into the Dark world can be tedious because of how much you have to wait around to recharge your health. Being completely subjective though, if I had to choose only playing one of them for the rest of my life, I'd go with MP1, for no other reason than just because it "feels" more like a "true" Metroid game.
Wait... hold on. If the ammo was never an issue, why is it an issue? I thought the ammo was going to be problematic because it gets in the way of the battle, only for you to say in the end, strategizing means nothing since tou can just kill the enemies and replenish ammo without a problem. Just to point out an inconsistency. The annihilator beam does suck, though. I thought I was going to kick ass and I never did. Looks really cools though... shame. I wish Temple Grounds was more flourished. It would have been great to step out from the Galactic Federation to a grand Luminoth entrance, instead we're just there inside... wait how did I get in here, where was this? I do disagree with the complains for Torvus and Sanctuary Fortress. Not even Tallon Ovetworld is as strickingly jungly and humid as Torvus, and no other game has created such strickingly cybernetic environment as the Fortress. Sure, they are Dark, but so was Tallon Overworld and Phrendranas Depths. Ago Wastes and the Temple Grounds do look the same and I never felt like I was going anywhere from those two. Which is why both Torvus and the Fortress were so incredible. And the architectural design... get out of here! I love that shit. Unfortunately the Chozo ruins they all felt like walking the same corridors, not gonna lie. Same happened with the Luminoth, but were different once you get to the Fortress, and tiny bit in Torvus. Prime 2 was more thematically consistent and made more sense each place. For Prime, it was gamey; don't tell me you don't think Magmoor feels out of place. Where did Phendrana come from? Right next to a jungle? Mind you, I love Phendrana, it's my favorite area, but we have got to admit it doesn't make sense. Sure, suspension of disbelief helps, but in Prime 2 they tried to make it make more sense. Which, clearly didn't pan out, because they went for 4 planets in Prime 3 to have a ton of different environments and make them make sense (this lead to, unfortunately, a horrible issue I have with it... such a big one, that I hated it). The dark world's glaring issue, I cannot defend. It really is just a more obscure version of light world. I enjoyed the concept that you can't go through the same paths as the light world, so some areas you have to visit later in the dark world and areas you visit first before going to the light world, so it's a double whammy of "I don't know what to expect behind this door" and sometimes the dark world is just completely different; take the space pirates research station that doesnt exist in the Dark Agon. A huge miss for the Ings Hive, if you ask me, which I was expecting it to be the organic counterpart of the cybernetic Fortress. I would have loved more emphasis on military stuff in the dark world besides the crystals. All I can think is all these issues could have been fixed with more time on their hand which I believe they didn't and were pushed to release a new game quickly. The fetch quest is probably another mistake from this. All in all, I agree with everything you said, but I do believe it's a bit overblown. Except for the fetch quest; it sucks so badly. That said. Metroid Prime 3 was not that good....in fact, I would go as far as to say it was bad. It had some irredimably gameplay issues. Heck, the only cool thing about Prime 3 is their environments, because even the fights are boringly long and too easy. And some of the bosses are just too long and convoluted all because they needed to use the wiimote... and don't get me started with all the wiimote puzzles! The most fun I had with Prime 3 was fighting Rundas and Gandrayda, and going back to the frozen side of Bryo. This last one was a surprise given how sick I already was of flying everywhere!! Its savig grace was the fetchquest, which isn't even a quest.
I've only really played 2D metroids. Is Prime 1 really as good as Super? How is it compared to Dread? If someone could answer my questions that would be nice
I don't think the 2D and 3D titles can be compared. All the things that define a metroidvania work way better in the 2D games for me: Exploring, collecting new things, finding new areas. Revisiting old areas doesn't feel as tedious. But the 3D games are really immersive, which is nice. The atmosphere can be fantastic and drew me in more than the 2D games did.
I would say if you really like the gameplay specifically of the 2D games, it's not fully replicated in the 3D. 3D games have a slower pace. But the game design and atmosphere are captured incredibly well. If you want the short answer, I see no reason not to buy Metroid Prime Remastered on the Switch. I'd recommend all Metroid Prime games any day.
nahhh not as good as super. the gameplay is way slower. even if you go through the whole game only scanning what you need to it's still slow. its definitely an essential game to play but not as good or replayable as super metroid.
hard disagree on the beams. Annihilator could be stronger, but I feel you missed the entire point of the combat in Echoes. You're not supposed to be stronk with a single weapon until enemies catch up to you and you get something new. You're supposed to be thinking about your enemy's composition, and using the weapon that best counters it. Almost Everything can be deleted from the moment you see it if you're using the right weapon. The one exception are Ing Smashers, but you're on your way to get Power Bombs when you first fight them, so it's not long before you can delete them as well. Speaking of Smashers, kind of bad faith argument to show Plasma deleting an aero trooper, only to show Annihilator tickling a Smasher. Bro, Smashers have a ton of health. They are essentially minibosses. Only Power Bombs delete Smashers. What are you doing? And before you say it. Yes even Ing Hunters and Dark Commandos can be deleted. Hunters will die immediately if you get in their face with a charged light beam, and Commandos die really fast if you hit them with charged dark beam and follow up with a missile. If you think anything is spongy it's because you're doing it wrong m8. The spongiest enemies are Smashers, and dark beam still makes short work of them. Also fun fact: Chykka is technically a neutral enemy. Any beam is about as effective as the others, but dark and light still do more damage than power, so take that as you will. Adult Chykka is a light creature who becomes dark when she takes a big gulp of dark water. So the opposite beams are most suitable for this phase (if you can land dark shots anyway). Point is no, because dark world use light beam is not what you're supposed to be doing. I'm sorry Prime 2 asked you to think about the combat. The one thing I will kind of give you is shooting crates. Well, mostly cuz the system where ammo drops when killing with the opposite weapon really should just lead to bonus drops. The game just drops ammo when you run out anyway, so a system of either allowing the player to influence/earn bonus amounts of what drops they get would be nice. I feel like that's the real issue here. The game is a bit too restrictive on how you get ammo. Not that the ammo itself is the problem.
Echoes was incredibly immersive, but also unnecessarily painful, and didn't have a strong connection to the first game besides the title and the main character. I did really enjoy the world and the world building, and the gameplay with the bosses was difficult in satisfying ways, but I think a new control scheme would help with a lot of those.
Many members of Retro studios had already made turok series on PC/N64, they were making mods for games on the PC. Every developer in the industry back then was doing shit for the PC. So no, Retro studios was assured decent chance of success because everyone had been making doom 2, quake, descent and warcraft 2 levels of the PC in the mid 90's to late 90's.
I have both the Wii version of the Metroid Prime Trilogy and a unused copy of Metroid Prime 2 Echoes never opened, I got a couple of years ago in the bargin bin for a penny.
-The ammo is a nitpick, sorry -I get wanting more interesting upgrades, but I don’t think it ruins the game; I think the flow of the upgrades is actually better than the first game-areas are easier to traverse, and I think there’s less back and forth, and puzzles are more experimental -the atmosphere is contentious, i think it’s important to note that it isn’t Prime 1 Prime 1 is a rollercoaster ride across different biomes, Echoes is more narrative-driven The areas are bleak and dusty because the planet is war-torn; the dark world by comparison feels a lot more alive and dangerous Then there’s the 180 of Sanctuary Fortress-that area is incredible and unlike anything else in a Metroid game You can prefer the first game but acting like Echoes torments you is ridiculous Personally, I think the world could do with less of these videos, negative toxic hitpieces by people insecure of having the most common opinion
These are all legitimate points. Great video 👍. Couldn't agree more tbh, still like the game, but it's not one I like to replay like 1 and 3. Kinda makes me worried about prime 4 tbh because retro has explicitly stated they are tired of making prime games which is why I'm guessing they originally went with Bandai namco.
Yeah I'm with you, I still like Echoes and am worried I came off like I can't stand it. It's a good game. But it has these issues that just grind my gears and make it inferior to the others. As for Prime 4, I have a feeling they will be playing it super "safe" with that game. It looks like it's leaning a lot closer to Prime 1 and 3, so I think it will be a safe return to form, but not do anything crazy and blow our minds. Which I'm ok with.
It's always been interesting what negatives bother people more in each game. Each game could be and is someone's favourite in the trilogy. But for what it's worth here are some disagreements I have with the video for whatever that's worth. Obviously the following is all my opinion as the video is your opinion. In regards to difficulty the original non wii version was too difficult in two particular bosses against the devs wishes. If you enjoy the difficulty of those bosses that's fair but the devs have since adjusted it. I agree that it sucks you don't get many weapons throughout but comparing the best beam from 1 and 3 on weak enemies to the best beam against a mini boss in 2 is a bit disingenuous. The annihilator beam does feel less powerful in its sound design and effects but its still much more powerful and great to have when you get it, you can't use it all the time due to the ammo system but while on the topic the ammo system is quite enjoyable to me. Prime 1 had infinite ammo for all beams but the wave bream and ice bream didn't feel more powerful and were mainly just stronger or weaker against different enemies, it still meant there was never a reason to go back to the power beam or even the ice or wave bream for the most part, the plasma beam feels great granted but it defeats the purpose of even being able to swap beams half the time by the end. In prime 3 combat has very few options because you just have a few attacks that get stronger varients, in the 2d games that works because enemies are more obstacles that can be defeated really quickly. In prime 2 all beams have utility due to the ammo system. The power beam can kill everything but rather slowly, worth swapping to for weak enemies or in a pinch if you're low. The light and dark beams both feel and are powerful because you can't just use use your most powerful attacks all the time. Worrying about ammo during combat also increases the decisions you need to make and all together to me makes combat in prime 2 feel way better then either of the other games. When you say atmosphere I think your issue is more aesthetics or that you find the look of the world too samey which is fair and a common critisicm. But again your comparison of how the games can look to me showed screenshots that would look similar when there is more variety to the areas then that, even if it's all dark. I think the sanctuary fortress is one of the coolest looking locations in the series and other areas combined with their different themes give them their own feel. There is less visual variety then in other games granted but it's not as bad as you suggest in my opinion. The dark world doesn't help the complaints about the game looking the same granted. But when showing off how your health drained in the dark world you showed a early part of the game where you may have not even had the dark suit yet. The dark world becomes very manageable as the game goes on and you get the tools to conquer it. If anything my complaints would be the dark world can be a bit limited due to each area being closed off compared to light world versions but that's not a big deal to me. Saying it's not a good sequal because it has the fetch quest the first one you have so much admiration for does seems odd to me as it is better in the 2nd in my opinion. Firstly if you're not scanning luminoth bodies when you find them I think you're not using a major game mechanic that the devs expect you to use, it's an important way story and tone are communicated in the games. But even if you do miss a body or two the game tells you where the bodies are, but also these days they can just google it even if that's not ideal. And at least in prime 2 you get a (admittedly limited) form of fast travel to speed up the process and often end up in new areas you havnt explored yet. Prime 2 makes backtracking better by making all areas more connected, magmore caverns was an issue since it was the only way to get between locations alot of the time. I feel some of the comparisons of things from one game to another were bent a bit in favour of your arguments and I'm not super fond of that. Considering alot of people watch things like this who havnt played the games or havnt in a while and this can create somewhat false narratives of how things actually are. But I respect your opinion and enjoyed hearing a point of view that was so opposite to my own.
Oh and also the reason the ammo mechanic hasn't returned is not because it's a failed experiment necessarily (although due to mixed reactions I assume it won't return) but because retro didn't make another prime game except for 3 which didn't have multiple beams at all.
And lastly as I'm not sure I made this clear. I think all 3 prime games are amazing and my favourite is not always 2. And also I'm not suggesting you're intentionally skewing the narrative here just that I don't think it represents things as they are imo.
Tbh your thoughts on prime 2 are very similar to mine. I think it’s a great game but I always thought prime 1 was better even when I first played it as a kid. I laughed about the annihilated beam, that is SO USELESS.
Thanks so much! I do wish I had captured the metroid prime footage on an emulator for better video quality - the footage is all running off gamecube/wii and looks a bit sloppy. Either way though, glad you enjoyed the video!
@@lemonking3851 Ah good point, thanks that makes me feel better about using such footage! I do use HD footage a bit as well. I kick off the video with HD to "hook" the viewer in with the snazzier graphics, and also drop it in a few times throughout the video like 24:26, so you can really see the comparison. I guess using the OG hardware gives my video a vintage feel if nothing else lol. Thanks for the feedback!
lol didn't umos the first guardian lose the energy to the first reactor to that very first ING you fought? the one down stairs literally from him lol. bro couldn't even be bothered getting it an elevator ride away. then later on we see this massive city they built. why not put the energy controllers in there i mean it seems most of the population is there probably better guarded from the ing there,
@@jinxxpwnage Yes, very much so! Although I do have some slight concerns. I may make a video on this topic. I think from the trailer, they are playing it very safe by sticking close to homages to Prime 1 and Prime 3 and throwing in some fan service, but we will see how it plays out. I'm 100% sure the game will be good, but it might be a bit underwhelming.
Yes lots of games have ammo not just Echoes, but I think other games are designed around it better, and it doesn't suit the Metroid formula. Metroid games are all about Samus getting stronger and stronger across the game and I don't think limitations like this work or make the combat any better.
Playing all of the Prime games for the first time. I liked two more than one and three the most. But not being a kid anymore, I grown to dislike Prime 3 the most. As a kid I really liked shooters, growing up in the 90's a early odds there were a lot of shooters. But as I've grown older I really don't like shooters at all anymore. And I think Prime 3 is the worst of the three now, because it's basically just a Halo clone with Metroid paint on it. Yeah, there are also more unique metoid stuff in there. But where the other two feels like first person Metroid games, Prime 3 feels like a shooter, with some Metroid stuff in there. Because they had to. Prime 1 is good, but it's also got this intangible hollowness to me. And I guess it just really never vibed with me as much the second game. There are alot of awful things about Prime 2, or atleast the original game cube version. Boostball and Spiderball Guardians come to mind. But overall I think what I appreciate about Prime 2 over 1. Is just how the "story" and progression feels more consistent to me, rather than just of random and messy like in Prime 1. While also inciting the same feeling of adventure and just getting lost the the world I get from most of the 2d Metroid games. I guess Prime 2 just scratches my Metroid itch better than Prime 1.
its interesting you didnt like the backtracking in prime 1 and especially echoes, but you seem to like 3, i feel like 3 was the worst, having several different maps made it very difficult trying to find collectibles and traversal was very annoying (especially skytown). one thing you didnt mention about 2 is the forced enemy encounters with he cloaking space pirates, this made backtracking such a pain because they're very tanky
@@angelvillegas9604 skytown was absolutely infuriating to backtrack through, the tone was way off as well, there was none of the loneliness the other 2 games had except for the space pirate base that was really good
honestly i understand the criticism but i will never understand why people like metroid prime 3 so much it doesn't even feel like an actual adventure game like 1 and 2 did it feels like a glorified rail shooter with way too much focus on "we want to be the new halo"
Yeah the Sonic Boom slapped pretty hard, but I also found that it gobbled up so much ammo that it was rarely worth using. Right from the top of the game to the bottom I still feel like the best approach is to just use the dark and light beams everywhere you go lol.
I never seen about people doubting about MP before it came out in 2002 🤔 if there was someone who doubt it, they must have been idiots 😂 Prime is the best entry in the whole series.
The thing is, before Metroid Prime came out there hadn't been a Metroid game in 8 years (Super Metroid). When Metroid Prime was announced and the first trailer was shown, people were worried because it was a slow-paced first person shooter. They weren't idiots, they waited 8 years for another game like Super Metroid (a fast-paced sidescroller), and finally they are shown a slow paced FPS that looked like it was Nintendo's response to Halo. There were fair concerns before it came out. Now if you actually played it and still hated it on the other hand, I'd agree you're probably an idiot haha
If everyone thought like you, we'd have world peace by now. Disagree, but OK. I feel the same way to those who prefer Echoes - can't get behind it, but all good man haha
I find it hilarious in hindsight how the Cloaked Drone in the Phazon Mines is a monstrous difficulty spike just for the fact that it can't be locked on to, but if you go out of your way to obtain the Waveburst upgrade in the Chozo Ruins on your second visit to get the Ice Beam, this boss becomes laughably easy since the upgrade has stun locking properties and has homing abilities without having to use a lock on. The Drone gets trashed in a matter of seconds if you have enough Missiles for it.
Wow no way, I honestly never even thought to try that but will definitely test that out in my HD run on the switch. That's sick!
@@mrsnulch Just keep in mind to collect every single Missile Expansion that is available up to that point. Exploring the Phazon Mines tends to be a drag because of Power and Wave Troopers. They can be easily taken care of with the Beam Combo Weapons but they will chew through your missile reserves very quickly.
I did it on the remastered version and I thought "I've been stupid for 20 years"
@@Nyxael5845 Don't worry, I never a leave a missile expansion unturned. I'm very curious about this now. I'll try to test it out sometime next month. I never gave the Waveburst the fair shot it deserved in my previous runs!
I'm a little confused because I've never had trouble with this thing. Y'all didn't just kill it with a couple of super missiles while up on the balcony, next to the entrance?
I heard an expression once about video game sequels, that the developers will either do the same thing again but better, or take the concept in a new direction. Prime 2 was definitely the latter. I'll go ahead and give some of my thoughts as a big Prime 2 supporter.
1: Ammo: I don't really know how to address the rant about boxes and ammo. Prime 1 established that boxes were key to restoring ammo and health outside of combat. I feel like it's a no-brainer that you can get beam ammo back from boxes. As for the ammo mechanic itself, you may have noticed while playing that the Light and Dark beams are really powerful. That's why the ammo system exists, so that the Power beam isn't completely worthless. They included the feature as a balancing system, not with the mindset of adding an interesting gameplay mechanic behind it. Also, you can get ammo for one back even if you run out. Holding charge allows you to fire a normal shot if you're out of ammo, which, to be fair, the game should tell the player this when they get the gun (it says this in the logbook instead).
2: Annihilator beam. The way you were describing the beam makes me think you never actually used it. This weapon shreds every enemy in the game in seconds, and I love the black hole aesthetic of the weapon. Also, shooting a light crystal with the annihilator beam causes all Ing in the area to just straight up run into it and off themselves like a bunch of moths running into a lit bug zapper, allowing you to clear rooms with a single shot. If I remember correctly, you also get both ammo supplies when using the Annihilator.
3: Atmosphere. I understand your complaints, but I think you're missing the point on why Prime 2's environemts are designed the way they are. Aether is a dying world plagued by darkness. It wouldn't make sense to have everything be bright and cheery given the setting. Also at 17:15, you refered to Torvus Bog as a rainforest... It's not, at least since it was flooded. It's a bog, a swampy, murky, overgrown environment like Dagobah from Star Wars.
4: Dark Aether. Dark Aether suffered from a crunched dev cycle, although I still like it. The aesthetic could definitely use a touch up, but the atmosphere is top-notch. I heavily disagree with your comparison to Magmoor Caverns, in fact, I'd argue they're conpletely separate things. Magmoor is just trekking through the same area you've already mastered, no real danger, just a casual stroll. The Dark World in comparison is constantly pushing you into new areas, and it's specifically designed as a place you want to get into and out of quickly because it's lethal. Some sections of Dark Aether feel like death runs, trying to keep your health up while searching for an exit. It's not a gameplay style for everyone, but I think you mistook it for being a design flaw when it's actually intended that you try to run through it as fast and as safe as possible.
5: Keys. No complaints here chief, I have no clue why they insisted on another full-scale key hunt in the longest game of the Trilogy. At least it gives you time to mess around in Dark Arther fully powered up, but it's still tedious.
At the end of the day, it's different strokes for different folks I guess.
As with Prime 1, the key hunts were implemented for the sole purpose of padding the game because the devs were worried the game was too short. It's not that they "didn't learn" from the criticisms of the first game -- they had full intention to bring it back
@@LoppinLazyAbsolutely, although it's still funny to me that they felt like they had to pad this game out as well when it's twice as long as Prime 1 on average lol.
Dude, this is a great comment and I don't know how I missed it. Those are all solid rebuttals in favour of Echoes. You should start your own RUclips channel given how eloquently you expressed your points here.
The beams are the main area I disagree with you. Yes you can charge an empty-ammo beam to use it to recover ammo from boxes to build that ammo back up, but for me it all still comes back to the fact that this system is boring because you always end up just shooting boxes, so the ammo scarcity ultimately means nothing. My main issue is that in every Metroid game other than Echoes, finding new upgrades is fun and exciting, but in Echoes you are just locked into this system the whole game, and personally I don't find it satisfying. You don't get many cool novel upgrades the entire game and I'm dead bored of the light and dark beam dynamic by the 10th hour.
I should have mentioned the Annihilator being able to suck up Ing in the dark world. But by the time you get it, you're 90% deep and onto the key hunt, and by that point I've already been running past Ing in the dark world so it makes no difference. Never need to use it.
I also disagree that the Annihilator beam cleans up enemies. In the light world, you can kill enemies faster by hitting them with a charge dark beam shot + missile. Annihilator takes way too long to kill enemies by my count, and deals less damage than the plasma beam.
Your points about the Atmosphere and Dark World are totally spot-on and come down to different strokes to different folks. I love the Dagobah comparison and think Torvus has one of the best soundtracks in the series, and Sanctuary is one of the coolest areas in the series. I was a bit too harsh on those environments. I prefer Chozo Ruins and Phendrana personally, but again, preference. You make a good point about the dark world being DESIGNED to be a place you need to skirt in and out of, and I did feel some tension there.
Ultimately while it didn't land for me, I really respect Echoes for taking risks and changing things up, and I hope Beyond does something like this. My biggest fear for Beyond is that it will play it too safe. Hopefully it satisfies fans of all Prime games!
@@mrsnulch It's though to say if the ammo system is a problem by itself, or if it's how it's implemented. Somehow, I believe the ammunition system is part of the immersion, there is a lot of constraint, and it's supposed to make you feel nervous about how you are going to handle the dark world. It's also a game about the unbalanced distribution of power, so when you have your light beam ammo, you feel powerful, but when it's depleted, you are powerless. So I understand why it's in the game, but at which point does it increases the experience? Even if you gain acces to the light beam later in the game, the question still remains. Even if we patch the holes with upgrades on the base weapon just like in prime 3 where you don't have to switch with the d-Pad, do we still need bullets?
And then there is this question : If I get unlimited ammo, then why would I choose the light beam over the anihilator? The thing is a fast shooting, head seeker. It may be less strong than the plasma beam, this is still a considerable advantage. But you could say that by the time you get it, you have increased you amount of ammunition by a lot already, so you don't really have to worry about it. I think it's just to stick with the logic of it, and to keep the light and dark beam relevant.
In fact, there's plenty of ways to keep them relevant. You brought up a very good argument in this video : just add a mechanic in order to take down the ennemies in a strategic manner. It's not hard to think of something, just throw in some dark ings with light crystals in their back that you have to shoot with the dark beam. Ennemies that absorb the light beams, so you have to take them out first in order to be able to shoot the other ennemies around, ennemies that are immune to any weapon exept one of those beams, you can blow up their bullet, or crack their armor to get more munitions, etc.
So as the game is right now, the defense to support the ammunition system is the narrative of the game, and to preserve the relevance of the first beams. If we wish to push this idea further, Nintendo could implement new mechanics to the game, where the ammo are around the fighting system, or change something to the upgrades sequence, so the current mecanics can be exploited more progressively.
Prime 1 already had ennemies with weak points, and that could have been pushed with prime 2's mechanics.
@@mrsnulchThanks for the kind words! I'm hoping Beyond shakes things up as well. Considering how much the 2D formula has evolved over the years they should be innovating on the Prime formula as well.
1. I love the beam system and ammo. Adds a level of strategy and tension so that combat isn't brain dead. The Annihilator beam would ruin that strategy if it were overpowered.
2. I agree some areas are bland in terms of coloring, but what compensates for that is some of the absolutely coolest architectural design I've ever seen in a video game. Not to mention, the level layouts and puzzle design are so much more interesting than Prime.
3. Echoes is the only game I've ever seen use the light/dark world concept in a clever way. The way you solve puzzles in each dimension to affect the other is brilliant. And the light bubbles add incredible tension to the early game. My only big complaint is the long load time when switching dimensions.
4. I can understand people disliking the fetch quest, but I actually love it. The clues you collect make you feel like a detective, and I think it's really cool how that quest frequently leads you to explore new rooms you wouldn't have gone to otherwise. In Prime, i would enjoy the fetch quest if the world were more efficient to backtrack and explore, but it's not. Echoes provides multiple shortcuts to get from area to area, which makes things flow so much better.
Overall, I think Echoes' puzzles, bosses, exploration/backtracking, and challenge are huge improvements over Prime. Echoes' biggest drawbacks are the lack of vivid color and the long load time of the dimension portals.
Still, I enjoyed your thoughts and how you articulated them 🙂
There are some great counter-arguments here. I can get behind points 2 and 4. The architecture and mood does help Echoes get away with its flat colour pallet, and I also personally enjoyed the fetch quest. My issue is only that it is mandatory. If it was optional and had some cool secret reward for completion, I still would have enjoyed it and liked it 5x more.
For point 3, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one! I think the other games I mentioned (Link to the Past, Axiom Verge Two, Guacamelee!) all have more interesting light/dark world dynamics than Echoes, but there are certainly some stand-outs in Echoes. I remember the Torvus Bog light/dark puzzles were really cool.
As for point 1, I have to hard-disagree on that one for the reasons mentioned in the video, but if you found it to be engaging that's all good! I didn't find it strategic at all, and the last weapon in a Metroid game should always be overpowered if you ask me. Either way, thanks for watching and great points!!
I guess I never thought the fetch quest was worse than the one in the original prime. At least it took you to some different locations. But I’d consider the end of game fetch quests to be a weakness of all the games, personally. I think Prime 2 overall just has the most unique voice in terms of its world. Prime 1 just felt like Super Metroid fan fic sometimes, and Prime 3 feels too much like a Saturday morning cartoon.
Literally all of the points you made about this video are exactly why I love Prime 2 in every aspect and way over Prime 1.
Honestly having infinite ammo and being an unstoppable force for the rest of the game after you've collected the plasma beam kinda sucked the strategy and tension out of the combat in Prime 1. I agree that while the Annihilator Beam may not be overpowered compared to the Plasma Beam in Metroid Prime 1 It's still an incredible final weapon to get towards the end of the game since it does about the same amount of damage per uncharged shot as the Plasma Beam only it can fire much faster, the shots home in on targets and can create energized crystals/beacons that lure Ing to their doom.
Yes the game may have lacked color variety in the environments compared to Prime 1 but the architecture and design of the environments more than made up for it. Not to mention Prime 2 also had some higher quality texture detail than Prime 1 which had pushed the GameCube to it's limits back in 2004 and it still holds up today. The cutscenes still look incredible even 20 years later. The player and enemy animations are all top notch, beautiful environments (aside from the same greyish look you'll see other than when you go into the dark world) and incredible special effects make this games visual presentation deserve an astonishing 9.5/10.
The Inclusion from jumping between light and dark world in order to solve new puzzles was also a great new addition introduced to the series.
I initially thought the sky temple key hunt was more tedious and time consuming than the hunt for the chozo artifacts but now that you mentioned the world in Prime 2 being more efficient to backtrack and explore than Prime 1's I've now reconsidered my opinion.
Overall Metroid Prime 2 brings back everything I loved about Prime 1 and made it even better. With that said I'd give Metroid Prime 2 Echoes a 9.5/10.
For me, Prime 2 is better. You explained why perfectly. However, while ending it I always think that 1 more year of development would have ment an ever better game. The definitive 3D metroidvania. Even crazier visuals (Aegon Waste i'm looking at you), more presence of Metroids around Dark Samus...
Nice to see discusions like this online! I'm usually on the "alternative" side: Bioshock 2>1, Prime 2>1, Golden Sun 2>1...
The combat is still as mindless as prime 1, you just are limited in ammo. You’re still spamming the dodge, only now you’re gonna be stuck with power beam if you run out of ammo.
Echoes is a perfect sequel and the best 3d metroid game, it fixed most of the issues prime 1 had, while adding a lot of unique content, both new and returning, prime 1 is basicly super metroid in 3d, while prime 2 is a whole new thing
I’m good to listen to a video with a differing opinion, but some examples you used were clearly cherry picked which makes your point come across as insincere whining rather than an actual argument. Showing the annihilator as weak by showing the charge shot and base boosted versions of the other two, then showing the annihilators normal shot at long range is an unfair showcase of how it feels. Showing different areas of the other games then cherry picking specifically the luminoth temple of each area to make it look more samey than it is makes you look like a jerk rather than you supporting your point. Just think about it for any future videos so you can actually make a fair argument instead of having to fake the evidence.
Hey those are good points and thanks for the feedback! The reason I do that is because I like to show footage those sort of visually represents my opinions on the game, as I think it makes the video more entertaining and helps support my point.
For the section about the beams, I'm not trying to show an analysis damage comparison, I'm saying that the Plasma Beam and Nova Beam are badass as fuck with cool sound effects and the Annihilator Beam is ugly. It's more of a joke section to make fun of the Annihilator Beam. In hindsight I actually wish I had shown a charge-beam shot of the annihilator as I think that looks goofy as well, and it actually deals 20% less damage than the plasma beam.
For the four-panel shots comparing the three games, that was also meant more as a gag to poke fun at Echoes. Hey at least I used the light world for my comparison -- I could have cherry picked extra hard and went to the dark world where literally every room looks the same across the entire game! Again, I'm trying to visually represent how Echoes has a much more subdued colour pallet than the other 2 games mentioned. I do it in an excessive way, but I don't think that's a hot take regardless. Those 4 panels represent how it feels to play Echoes for me.
Either way I acknowledge that there is a line to be walked between the entertainment value and getting too cherry-picky and will keep this in mind for future videos, I don't want it to ever be said that I'm not being fair. I'll consider this for sure. Cheers!
The annihilator is about the only point I wasn’t in full agreement on.
TBF, Metroid Prime 2 not making the sales MP1 did is no doubt directly related to it's release date being *six days* after Halo 2, and less than a month after San Andreas.
Nothing could have stood a chance in that release window. The only reason MP2 didn't completely flop on sales was being released on the Gamecube, isolating it to an extent from the other two games. But for most people picking a game to buy in November that didn't only have a Gamecube, they probably picked up Halo on Xbox, or GTA on PS2.
Or Half-Life 2 on PC, or MGS3 also on PS2. Those games also released in November 2004.
@@AICW 2004 was a stacked year to be sure.
Yet it turned out to be the best one of the three
Also as someone who grew up in that period, I saw a grand total of one advertisement… in a magazine. It wasn’t very well promoted
I actually like the 3rd the most. This was definitely the hardest to play through the game (due to tedium)
The hardest thing I expect in Metroid prime 4, will be getting the special edition 😅.
I totally agree, I know there are those who don't like Prime 3 because it's more "mainstream" and linear, which it totally is, but I think that game slaps so hard that it gets away with it!
@@mrsnulch i think the notion that samus has to be entirely alone and there cant be other characters is the reason why people dislike 3... and i think its a dumb argument. you dont even need much dialogue - the 3 hunters dont talk much but they leave so much more impact than any other character in any other metroid game. its even dumber when people take other m as an example. that wasnt due to other characters and dialogue existing.. that was just bad writing.
The bosses were annoying and I couldn’t do the motion controls
@@Lewt_2B Well said, I agree with that. Samus is usually a lone bounty hunter, but it's not always a bad thing to see her collaborating with other hunters or the federation from time to time. Other M only failed because the writing was horrible and an insult to her character.
I think Prime 3 is way too easy on Normal difficulty, but the Hyper Mode mechanic works really well on Veteran and Hypermode difficulties. You really have to manage your health usage and use Hyper Mode to its fullest in every fight and boss battle.
I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts, but as someone who thinks Echoes is the best game in the series and a massive step up from Prime... I'm guessing I'll disagree with your perspective 😋
That's totally fair, there are a lot of great aspects of Echoes and I do point out a few things I like about the game as well! I can see why some with different tastes than me might consider it the best.
Nice profile pic. Happy Pentecost!
@@educationalporpoises9592 Joyous feast!
@@mrsnulch I second this comment. Prime 2 was different, but imo the superior game. Not too difficult to beat, but definitely a lot harder than Prime 1. The planet of Aether just fascinated me a lot more than Tallon IV.
Lot's of great points here, i remember struggling alot with this game and it's atmosphere. I really wanted to like it, i persevered through the game but damn.. it left kind of a bitter taste back then. It was so agressive and dark, bold but i think strayed too far of what Prime 1 was and what that game felt like to the players. Now that that memory has faded we can take a better look at what it truly was. The title screen opening is still one of the greatest ever btw..
Yeah exactly, like look it's a good game I'm not saying it's a horrible game, but I really have a hard time putting it up there with the 1st or 3rd and that muddy atmosphere still really holds the game down for me.
I'm one of those who thinks Echoes is a slightly better game than Prime 1 and I have 2 issues with your video.
1. Not a huge issue but you didn't mention in the beam section how Prime 1 had this whole beam switch mechanic then basically had you only use the Plasma beam once you got it. They had to hand fist beam switching with the annoying Pirates with the unique beam Armor. Echoes meanwhile tries to get you to use all the beams throughout the game and has all beams work just at different effectiveness levels.
2. The bigger issue I had is you clearly show how you found Prime 1 to be superior. However, you didn't explain how Prime 3 is superior so the part of your conclusion where you show Prime 3 beating out Prime 2 doesn't feel backed up (outside of a brief mention with art style). IMO Prime 3 is the weakest of the 3 so I want to know why you think it's the 2nd best.
That's a good point, I actually will make a video on Corruption as well and maybe go into more depth as to why I enjoy that game (in a guilty-pleasure sort of way). I sort of touch on it at 17:44, but should have went deeper into my thoughts on that game, I'll get to that!
Regarding your first point, I definitely see what you mean about switching beams throughout the game whereas in other Metroid games you really just stick to the last beam.
But isn't that the point of the Metroid formula? There are lots of great games like Halo where you're always switching up your weapons, but in Metroid you usually get super powered up and get an absolutely filthy weapon for the endgame. I LOVE getting the plasma and nova beam because they're so satisfying and strong I wouldn't want to use anything else at that point. Whereas in Echoes I'm still toggling between these same 2 beams that I'm completely bored of using. I think it's really a matter of preference, which is why Echoes is such a 50/50 divisive title.
Uhhhh. You didn’t only use plasma beam once you got it. Maybe if you were backtracking through some areas, but phazon mines punishes you for not changing beams and Metroids (barring the annoying fusion ones) still are better dealt with using ice beam and missile
@@mrsnulchI straight up tend to call prime 3 the second best in the trilogy. It has basically none of the issues the prior games had, but is much easier and way too restrictive to serve it’s much more linear format
Prime 2 has always been my favorite in the trilogy but from just playing the game I can 100% see why some people don't like it. The design of the game always stuck out to me because of how similar yet wildly different it is from the first game, kinda one of those things that you either love or hate.
Definitely. I think back when it was released, it was sort of underwhelming for many people and 80% of people seemed to prefer the first game. Whereas now, it's making a comeback and it's almost a 50/50 of people who prefer it or not. It definitely comes down heavily to perspective and preference.
It’s not even that different tbh. It’s prime 1’s structure copy/pasted, but with everything doubled…this also means the flaws
If Prime is so good where is Quadraxis in it then? Checkmate primechuddies echoesGODS win gain
If you love Quadraxis so much, WHY DON'T YOU MARRY HIM?
To your credit I do mention at 5:33 that Echoes definitely has better bosses than Prime. So I admit that's a point for Echoes.
Ya know I agree. With pretty much all of this. But the atmosphere was so much more tense in Prime 2, that makes up for the tedium of the dark world for me - I’m always a little scared of it. Then the light suit comes in and I’m like “dayummmm”
HE HAS RETURNED
SO HAVE YOU
I may be one of the few people who doesn't have any preference towards one of the Prime games. I love them all equally. They all have different play styles, different motives and maybe different shortcomings, but I can appreciate the games for what they are. I love Prime being basically a 3D version of Super Metroid. I love Echoes for being the Metroid answer to A Link to the Past with a tint of Starship Troopers. I love Corruption for giving insight into the Galactic Federation and the world Samus basically lives in. And I'm very keen to see what lies Beyond (see what I did there?)...
Oooh I do see what you did there, and I LIKE it. I have high hopes for Beyond but also some concerns, so I'll certainly make a video on it. I agree with you broadly that I love ALL the games in the series and will never say one of them is bad, but this video is my response to those who say Echoes is better that Prime 1. I need to take a stand against that haha
@@mrsnulch Interestingly I hear more often Echoes being the "black sheep" of the series. I know lots of people that didn't like it.
That's a solid argument! Thanks for this
Prime 2 has always been my favourite, and I totally understand where you're coming from. At the risk of repeating stuff other people have said I'll just list my favourite things :D
1. As you said Prime 2 is more difficult and I love that. It demands you to engage with its world and mechanics, to meet it half way. The early to mid game really feels like a survival horror game where you have to conserve ammo/health and be on your toes to get through the dark zones. It's a lot of fun and you really feel a sense of mastery as you progress. It's pretty similar to Fusion in this regard. And I love Fusion.
2. Aside the key hunt, you're barely forced to back track for upgrades and it makes replays far smoother. And when you do have to back track they place an elevator that will take you directly to where you need to be. The game just flows a lot better for it. I dread Magmoor Caverns each time I replay Prime 1, but Prime 2 doesn't really have any moments like that for me.
3. I really enjoy the world design and atmosphere (in both worlds), and the duller colour scheme makes the world feel more... believable? Real? It's post-apocalyptic like Prime 1, but the damage is far more severe to the point where all the colour has drained from the world. It says so much with saying so little, and there's so much environmental story telling.
4. Unlike Prime 1 and Tallon IV; Samus' arrival on Aether isn't too late and she can still save the Luminoth. Listen the Chozo are cool and all, but they're always extinct. Speaking to multiple Luminoth and learning about them throughout the game was GREAT. It was exciting finding logs and bodies to scan, more so than in Prime 1. And I dare say it makes for a more interesting plot/premise than the previous game. At least for me.
Anyway thank you for your retrospective I really enjoyed your perspective on the game!
Interesting review, I feel much of the same way regarding the MP2 as you did at the time I played, I recall liking it but not as much as the first game and yes, I also prefer Corruption over Echoes. It's just weird to me now that so many people have just turned around on Echoes, like with so much over reviled or lukewarm media that was hated at first but is starting to get fans now. I've even seen Deus Ex Invisible War get called "underrated" of all things. I thought maybe if MP2 got a remaster I could turn on the game but you are confirming many of the things I thought about it, the beam ammo was useless, the dark world was tedious to go through, and the fetch quest made Prime 1's seem like a less of a massive gut punch. Prime 3 was the only game that I recalled did this in a somewhat tolerable way.
I think Powerslave Exhumed handled the fetch quest better than MP did, the 3D metroidvania that predates Prime 1, you at the very least are able to beat the game but you get a troll ending, so if you hate fetch quests and don't care about game endings then you can move on the something else.
Also, while Magmoor Caverns was tedious, I found the crashed frigate to be more so. You got to go there so many times, and while the theme there is great, it starts to become diminishing returns.
Overall, great vid.
This video has def earned a sub haha I love it.
I'm actually surprised you highlighted atmosphere as one of Prime 2's weakpoint, I've often heard that it has one of the best atmospheres in the series, but even as someone who ranks it as the best Prime game, I actually do think 1 and 3 have a better atmosphere (and even soundtrack barring some bangers like sanctuary).
It's a good video and makes me think a little more critically on my favorite 3D Metroid.
Thanks for the sub!! yeah I mentioned the atmosphere because while I do like some dark moody games (Hollow Knight, Majora's Mask, and Bloodborne), I find Echoes just looks so muddy and bland and it doesn't tickle me the way those games do. Very much a matter of preference I'd say. I can appreciate it's creepy atmosphere but I prefer the bright vistas of Prime 1 and 3.
It hurts my heart how misunderstood Echoes is by many people. In its own way, Echoes is just as good as Prime. 😢
That’s true. I mention at the beginning (2:20) that Echoes was initially very misunderstood but now is becoming more widely accepted, with a sizable group of players coming to consider it better than the first game. When this was happening I went back and played it with fresh eyes, and really enjoyed it more than I did at launch. But I still don’t think it’s as good as Prime 1 or 3 for the reasons I go into here, but I agree the game was misunderstood, and is still all around a great game. Just not my cup of tea, but it comes down to preference!
@@mrsnulch If prime 3 maintained beam switching instead of beam stacking it'd be pretty damn close to prime 1 imo.
Beam stacking belongs to the 2D side scrollers and bring back Super Metroid ability toggle please 😞
I actually think Echoes may be a bit better.
@@RisingArcmanifestingno echos is definitely better than
When I first played this , i was disappointed at first due to the similarities at first then after completed it I appreciated it more and how different it was
So did I, I mention at around this at around 3:15 I do have a more favourable opinion of Echoes now than I used to after revisiting it, but the annoyances I express in this video still hold it firmly below 1 and 3 for me.
I do prefer Prime 1 and 3, but everytime I do get invested in a Prime 2 playthrough, it fools me into thinking it´s better at points. Maybe being harder and more obtuse makes it more engrossing when you´re in the thick of it, I don´t know...
Prime was my favourite game ever when I played it. Echoes was a day one purchase for me but I didn’t end up finishing it. I think the aesthetic threw me off and it was a bit restrictive in dark aether. But after I bought Trilogy I gave it another shot. At this point I would say it’s a better game. But its hub world is isnt as good as Tallon IV. I really do think that hurts it. Especially in such a dark and moody game. You need a place to rest and I never got that feeling in Echoes making it not only harder but more strenuous. But the game design is much better.
You and I almost have the same story here, the only difference is when I went back and replayed it, I DID enjoy it more than I did at launch, but I still wouldn't stretch far enough to say it's the better game. Totally fair if you think so, it does have some improvements in its design. But because of the things I mention in the video, I just find so many aspects of it really tedious and poorly designed, so for me 1 and 3 still come out on top. Echoes is a good game though!
@@mrsnulch yeah I didn’t take issues with your points because I think they’re correct and well thought out. It’s just personally if I had to take out the nostalgia factor for Prime 1 I think Echoes edges Prime but just barely. But great vid. Looking forward to your breakdown of Beyond 👌
I had trouble with 2 for a bit but got used to it and the ending really ramps up
To me Echoes was overall a better experience than Prime 1 the first time playing it due to the improvements you bring up, but it doesn't have the same replayability to me afterwards as the first one still does. Despite the backtracking Prime 1 moves at a way quicker pace for replaying it more often.
Prime 2 was better than prime 1 skill issues
I think placing the environments from Prime 1 next to the ones from Prime 2 really speaks for itself. I appreciate that "forest, desert, lava, ice world" is in itself a sort of cliche - but it became one 'cause it provides a lot of variety. If done sloppily it might feel played out, but I think Metroid Prime uses it well and does have a thick atmosphere that does have more than just one mood.
Weeell... Maybe the atmosphere in Magmoor Caverns isn't so thick, lol
There was one thing I really liked about Echoes. When you get to The Sanctuary. That place was awesome!!
Why I'm not much of a fan of Echoes, was it felt like it was a Key Master game. Like, there were so many different "keys" that you needed to open doors. Super Metroid for instance, you needed a regular missile for pink doors, a super missile for green doors, and a power bomb for yellow doors. In Metroid 1, you needed a missile to open pink doors. But in Echoes, wow, it just seemed like the key game just kept on going. As if Designers said, 'You know what Metroid is all about? Finding the right missiles to unlock doors, so that's what Echoes will be'. It just wasn't interesting enough.
And the world light world dark world theme just felt too much like I was playing Zelda 3 again. But again, Sanctuary. I would play that game again just to play through that area.
I agree across the board and have to admit that despite my criticisms of the game, Sanctuary is an easy contender for the coolest area in the entire series.
@@mrsnulch Yeah, that area was such a pleasant surprise! I felt like, 'YES! now THIS is METROID!"
Ok. I’m probably the biggest fan of Echoes you’ll ever meet. As much as I loved Prime 1, Prime 2 was my personal favorite. It’s a much more hardcore Metroid experience, it’s Zelda’s A Link To the Past with the dark Aether, and I enjoyed the dark and foreboding atmosphere much more than Prime 1.
It’s a darker game overall and I just loved the atmosphere and it was also a much more challenging game too. Not to mention it was a graphically more impressive game than Prime 1 pushing the GameCube to its limit, it’s no slouch of a sequel.
Hi Snulch!
You have pretty solid arguments right there! You are making me think about how I love this game. I always liked prime 1 and 2 at around the same level. But now that I think about it, it's true that I always used to say like prime 1 better because even though I like the dark world like mad, prime 2 gets pretty heavy on the long term.
However, the narrative of the game justify it, the fate of the planet is terrible, and the dark world has taken over. I believe this is why they implemented an ammunition system, to make the dark world feel like a restrictive world, you lack mouvement, you lack ammo, you lack a clear vision and understanding of it. It's not meant to be fun, you gotta be careful, and this is why I love it, because it's part of the immersion. That being said, what I see that you are pointing out really is about tweaking the features. So I would really appreciate a new version of this game with some of your ideas implemented, it would simply crush the two other titles (and I can't emphasize enough the word "crush").
As for Prime 3, and surely 4, I can't see myself enjoying them as much as prime 1&2 just because there are human-like forms teaming up with Samus. It gets me out of my immersion. I just like walking around like a lone wolf. Exploring an entire planet without any dialog, trying to figure out evrything just by myself, wow! It's just crazy for me, in a good way. Just me, creepy creatures that look cool, and outstanding music tracks that help me feel the environment, now that's chilling.
Speaking of creepy creatures, prime 2 is so good on their design. A swarm of ing is what I'm dreaming of, so it would've been nice to have weaker creatures, but more. You would have big sequences of that, like Zerg rushes. You one shot them, but they deal damage. And on the other end, you can also put small groups of them everywhere, it doesn't takes 10 minutes to clear an area, but it makes the back track less like you are saying "talk to my hand" to every creatures around.
Thanks for the video, I'd say let your arguments speak, sometimes you sound little bias, and it sound less powerful. Like when you put the four images from the different environments saying they look alike, I feel like you wanted too much to prove your point, that you cheated on that, showing really particular areas of the map that look alike, I could easily take four pictures, like the sand area, the rainforest, and say you are trying to trick me. What I understood of it is two things : that the atmosphere is too gloomy all the time, and that the different areas don't stand out enough from each others, I believe that was enough to convince me.
Have a good day my friend!
Prime 2 has been my favorite game in the series for many years, and I want to lay out my reasons for why I think it's better than Prime one and three.
For starters this game is moodier, more mazelike and by extension more challenging than the other two games. Metroid's gameplay is all about mastering mazes within mazes in total Isolation, and this games emphasis on moody atmosphere and challenge embodies what Metroid should be in my mind.
Prime 2 expands the Metroid universe better than Prime one or three did. Exploring a world that isn't just another forgotten Chozo outpost is incredibly memorable, from their architecture, their weaponry, and their 3d hieroglyphic written language, these aliens and their world make this game stand out from all other Metroid games in an amazing way. I felt like Prime three tried to do this with the multiple worlds that it added, but on the other hand, all the human characters that game added heavily detracted from the isolating atmosphere that I feel makes Metroid great.
The locations you visit in Prime 2 are also much more inspired than the collection of Super Mario themed locations you travel through in Prime 1. The Agon Wastes is clearly inspired by Arrakis from Dune, with its past as green paradise, but in the present, it is an uninhabitable desert filled with giant sand worms. Torvus Bog poses the greatest initial challenge of the main locations in the game, and obtaining the gravity boost midway through this area might be the single most satisfying moment in the series. Sanctuary Fortress is the most visually dazzling and mazelike area in the Metroid series, and the upgrades you get for completing this part of the game such as the Annihilator beam and the light suit make this area of the game probably my favorite location in Metroid. Prime three comes close to this game’s greatness in this aspect, but is dragged down by forcing
you to interact with the federation.
Adding the Luminoth and having the entire game on a new alien world with an interdimensional war between moths and spiders opened all sorts of possibilities for environmental design, and in Prime 2 the art direction is sublime and beyond creative. Prime 2 has the most jaw dropping rooms you'll ever see in the series, and for this reason I hope Prime 4 takes notes from this game. I would be a little more than slightly disappointed if in Prime 4 we go to another Chozo world with the same familiar motifs slightly remixed in an artistically safe way, when there is so much more
possible that can be done with Metroid's art direction.
As for the typical gripes people have with this game, here are my responses:
"I don't like that the beams have ammo in this game."
Adding beam ammo to Prime 2 enhances the difficulty and forces combat to be more strategic, which adds a degree of thematic substance for a series about losing everything and having to build yourself back up totally on your own. If you use the correct weapon for the job using a little experimentation, you'll find that you'll almost never run out of ammo anyway.
"The light suit and dark suit are ugly."
I don't agree with this, and these suits were designed by moth people, not human beings. Their fashion standards are probably a bit different from ours. These suits are also a hell of a lot more memorable than the PED suit in prime 3, or the Phazon suit in Prime 1 which is just another reskin of the varia suit.
"This game is too challenging and some of the bosses are too hard."
Number one, get good. Two, this is an aspect that all the best Metroid games have in common, so I don't see why this game gets singled out.
"The transitions between dimensions take up too much time."
I actually agree with this, but I don't think this is enough to make Prime 2 worse than Prime 1.
Those are some solid arguments, some I agree with some I don't! Starting with your finishing points, anyone who says the game is "too challenging" or the "dark suit and light suit are ugly" is probably insane haha. I think Echoes has the best challenge balance of the 3 games, and I love the suits.
I would disagree about ammo adding anything to the combat or making it more strategic for the reasons I mention in the video. I personally just found it tedious, but I see why some may like that tension they feel knowing they might run out. I think the combat challenge in a Metroid game should come down to the enemy's design, not limiting the amount of shots Samus can fire until her damage gets nerfed.
You make good arguments for the 3 regions, I never caught the Arrakis parallel. I just think the areas all sort of blur together in a grim muddy soup for me sometimes ,and this may come down to the dark world. Sanctuary is definitely the stand-out region and one of the best in the series.
Regarding your overall preference of Aiether over Tallon IV when it comes to the lore and such, I have to hard-disagree on that one. It is cool to meet the Luminoth and see their struggle against the Ing, but I find the lore in the first game far more interesting. I love learning about the Chozo after they've already abandoned the planet, sort of showing their rise to genius then their utter collapse as a meteor ate away at their new home, and you can see the beauty of Tallon IV starting to wither away. I don't think Aiether is as interesting but this is FULLY a matter of preference.
Either way, solid comment and thanks for the view
I disagree with your complaints about this game.
First and for most yes while the ammo system and the pacing in terms of the order you get your weapons was initially a weird new addition for me I actually liked the fact that you get the dark and light beams early while slowly working your way up towards getting the third annihilator beam. Having an ammo counter in my opinion added more depth to the combat as it basically forced you to use alternate beam weapons sparingly and take advantage of their damage output against certain enemy types while also discovering specific weaknesses and advantages that you can use the same beam type against the same type of enemy (i.e using the dark beam charged shot is effective at quickly disposing those ever so troublesome dark pirate commandos which you will encounter often later in the game). Not being able to spam and stick with your favorite beam type for a majority of the game really forced you to get creative with your strategy and save up as much ammo for future boss encounters which could get very difficult later on.
Not to mention The Annihilator Beam was actually a pretty great and useful final weapon you get towards the end of the game. Sure it may not be able to one shot certain enemies with a charged shot like the Plasma Beam in Prime 1 but it had the same damage output for it's noncharged shots combined with the fact that The Annihilator Beam fires much faster than the Plasma Beam. There's also the fact that the Annihilator Beam's shots tend to home in on enemies and the one thing I love so much about it is it has the ability to energize crystals and beacons with dark energy which will draw Ing to their inevitable deaths due to them also being energized with light energy which the creatures of the dark world hate and since there are usually loads of crates lying around in nearly every room ammo management for the Annihilator Beam was never really a huge issue for me.
Yes the color variants for the environments weren't as diverse as previous Metroid games but I loved the fact that it still gave off the feeling of going to one completely different environment to another. Ranging from the dry dessert of Agon Wastes. The wetlands of Torvus Bog and The Mechanical Tron like city structure of Sanctuary Fortress really felt like some new and interesting additions to the series. I actually liked the dark and horrific atmosphere of Dark Aether. Being able to only go from crystal/beacon to crystal/beacon while also being forced to fight the Ing in order to prevent damage to your health from the poisonous atmosphere of dark aether until you got the light suit really kept you on your toes and gave the game sort of a survival horror like feel.
Really the only complaint I have to agree with is the sky temple key hunt. As if the hunt for the chozo artifacts wasn't confusing having to search for the 8 keys in order to fight the final boss was a major pain in the ass. Having to scan every deceased Luminoth and go from the light to dark world felt tedious and time consuming.
Other than that I see Prime 2 as a worthy successor to Prime 1 in every aspect and is currently my number 1 favorite game in the Prime trilogy to date. I haven't yet finished Prime 3 so my full thoughts on that game are still up for debate.
Did you use Annihalator Beam on the light crystals? It makes the ing walk into the light field and instantly die. Made the ending fetch quest a LOT more tolerable.
I'm definitely an Echoes defender although I didn't play much of MP1, I somehow died on Flashgrah on normal and decided to give up early.
It's funny how every problem you listed is a big pleasure for me. I understand your harsh opinion on that game but for me it's the perfect sequel. I think the ammo system is clever and would be way too overpowered if it was infinite. The annihilator is my favorite beam, it's wasteful but you can replenish it everywhere with small creatures and chests because it drops both beam ammos. Also it's extremely satisfying to defeat the Imperor Ing with it.
What i like the most is the level design of the main areas. You stay there and finish it completely before going to the next area, so it feels like a big Zelda dungeon. Torvus Bog and Sanctuary Fortress are my favorites in the entire series. There are few backtracking moments, but they are also clever implemented.
The frightening atmosphere of the dark aether gets me everytime and the Luminoth lore is very interesting and engaging.
And i don't mind the fetch quest at the end. For me it's the perfect opportunity to collect 100% of the items and go arround with my fully upgraded equipment and feel overpowered.
Still a great video, don't get me wrong.
Well said, it takes great character to sit through a video you disagree with and provide such great feedback. I can't quite see eye-to-eye with you on the annihilator ever feeling satisfying, I find the plasma and nova beams both way more juicy to shoot.
But I definitely see what you mean with the areas, and to give credit where it's due, Torvus and Sanctuary both absolutely slap. The central dark/light puzzle in Torvus is pretty memorable to me, although I do find it to get a bit tedious, but Sanctuary is awesome all the way through. Probably one of the best areas in the series.
I also don't mind the quest at the end personally, but I still consider it bad game design as it would be more rewarding if it was optional in my opinion, and not all players would enjoy doing that so deep into the game. But that's definitely up for debate.
I remember that one of my biggest disappointments with Prime 2 when it came out was it’s music. I absolutely loved the Prime 1 soundtrack, so hearing the more ambient to almost monotonous music at times in Prime 2’s Dark World took a lot of my enthusiasm.
Prime 2 music is way better than prime 1
I will say, at least having only two beams for most of the game in theory would cut down on the swapping, something I found pretty annoying by the end of Prime 1. Kinda wish doors had functioned like they do with missiles where you only have to use the proper shot once.
I finished Echoes for the very first time today and I agree with pretty much everything you said. It is a good game, but I didn't have nearly as much fun with it as with Prime 1 - to the point where I almost dropped the game because of the Spider and the Power Bomb Guardians. The lack of colour in the game also made it very difficult to get some sense of orientation because everything looks the same. The bland colours combined with the annoying enemies and hard bosses made this game often very painful to play through. I didn't even bother doing the fetch quest as the game intended, I looked it up on the internet and was done with it. Despite this, I think I will enjoy Echoes more on a second playthrough but I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon 😅 I'm tackling Prime 3 now.
This just makes me wan't a HD Remaster of Metroid Prime 2 Echoes even more.
That checks out especially because I grabbed all the footage in this video from native hardware and it definitely needs a fresh coat of paint.
I gotta say, the fetch quest at the end of these games is integral to the experience...I would actually be upset if it was taken out
I'm not saying it should be taken out, I also enjoy the fetch quests in both games because I find it fun to search for the artifacts and read the clues. I'm saying that it should be optional, with a secret ending / reward for curious players. They shouldn't be a mandatory roadblock to beating the game, because not everyone likes revisiting the entire map at that stage in the game. Both quests were added soley to pad out the runtime, and would be more exciting if they were a part of a secret.
@@mrsnulchthe clues make the prime 2 fetch quest seem confusing, but in actuality most of the keys are hidden in areas that are only accessible at the very end w the light suit and annihilator beam. u can just ignore the hints and ull find the keys on ur own super easily.
Eugh... Then I guess I dislike an integral part of the prime series as a whole
@@federicoricca2512 that's OK, there's plenty of other games to play
@@kevinbuchanan67 like every other Metroid without a fetch quest at the end
Your review of this game is spot on. I really do like Prime 2 and thinks it's an underappreciated game to give it credit for. But I always prefer Prime 1 & 3 more. For the longest time, I can't think of why I liked them more than 2. But your review perfectly sums it up. It can be stressful & tedious to complete and I have played other Metroid games that were difficult. Like Samus Returns & Dread. But I found those acceptable because of it's 2D perspective, they weren't an slog and were more satisfying. Even with the Harder Mode or Dread Mode in Metroid Dread. Prime 2 takes alot of pressure and some like the Boost Guardian, Alpha Blogg & Spider Guardian ( GameCube version ) are such an pain in the butt. Which I'm surprised you didn't complaint about. But like you said, it is an experimental game and while they succeed for the most part, other low points could've been improved or tweaked. I agree it's the weakest of the trilogy. But that don't mean it's bad. Dare I say it's pretty good even. I just prefer the other Prime games more and whether you think it's better than this or worst or whatever is all subjective. Excellent job.
Thanks so much, and it's funny you say that. The bosses you mention drove me nuts and I considered mentioning them. This footage was captured on the gamecube and I died 4 times to the spider guardian, almost threw my controller out the window. With that said, I still think the challenge Echoes presents with its bosses was a net improvement over Prime 1, and didn't want to muddy things too much by going into its more brutal bosses.
And I agree, I know this video comes off like I hate Echoes, but I still think its a great game. Just really not to my taste, and not able to compete with the other two for me.
As far as reception of a game goes, I think it's always gonna flip the other way once enough time has passed. Eventually the only ones interested in talking about that old game are either the hardcore enthusiasts or the ones who it made a positive impression on growing up(and who are now old enough to make "Echoes Is Peak" or whatever videos). These guys then highlight qualities of the game that might attract others who also think that sounds cool. It doesn't mean the initial reception of whatever game in question was wrong, but it does mean it found its niche over time, which is only a good thing.
Having said that, I appreciate a video like this from someone who did have one of those childhood experiences but also didn't have his mind blown at the time. That's how I feel about a lot of games I didn't enjoy back in the day, that have gotten a "revival" in later years. If only die-hard fans of a game highlight the game, then the perspective on it is gonna get increasingly skewed. Fans don't have any obligation to temper their praise with objections that other people have, but it's nice to get some sober takes as compliments to those videos, and I think your objections in the video were reasonable. You didn't come across as hating the game either, to me at least.
This is maybe a bit of a non-sequitur, but I think _Record of Lodoss War: Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth_ did that dark/light Ikaruga ammo thing in a good way, by making it two forms of fire and wind that you swap between. It's just one of many systems in the game, but it consistently gives you something to think about in what would otherwise be a relatively standard metroidvania, and it does more than just increase damage to certain foes - for example having one equipped makes you immune to damage of that type. That's partiularly engaging when you're fighting two enemies at the same time, one of each element. Might be worth checking out if you wanna see a good implementation of what they were going for!
That's actually an interesting point, it has me wondering if Echoes has actually had a "renaissance" this last decade, or if the discourse around the game is limited to people who liked it, while those who didn't don't think about it so much. I think it still experienced some sort of revival as I have seen accounts of people who didn't like the game initially liking it more recently, but in general I think it's still the general consensus that it was a fairly weak sequel.
Either way, glad you enjoyed the video and very interesting points!!
Glad Im not only one who feels Prime 2 was the weakest. Most of your criticisms are the same ones I had with it.
Now if I can only get people on board with the understanding that the first person perspective in general was always a bit problematic and limits 3D Metroid's potential to have faster paced satisfying platforming and movement mechanics along side good combat. I mean my problem with the Prime series in general is if I want good movement and exploration I'll just go play the 2D games and if I want good shooting I'll go play Halo; Prime does neither of these things well and it all stems from trying to force metroid mechanics around a first person perspective that they were clearly never well suited for. Sure its "innovative", but in the same way you could slap a USB powered toaster onto your phone. It can be done, but is it actually practical and sensible?
The majority of folks in the comments have been team Echoes so it's great that we're on the same page there! As for your second point, that's a pretty bold take! I agree that they sacrificed a lot of the gameplay and Samus' mobility with the switch to 3D, and the raw gameplay is a lot more "tame" than the 2D games. For gameplay I would say Dread is the top dog.
With that said, I really like the first-person view and slower pace because it really makes you feel immersed on this alien planet and allowed them to really show off the Gamecube's power while still respecting the exploration of a Metroid game. But I agree that they definitely left a lot of tight mechanics behind to do it. It's a matter of preference.
I recommend checking out the video "Where Metroid Went Wrong and Right Again" by Nerrel, he makes a cool point that definitely sort of won me over to the slower side. But I see what you're saying 100%
interesting. I used to dislike prime 2 as a teenager as it was too scary for me. couldn't get through the opening section. but with every replay of the series I ended up liking it more and more. it's now my top prime game. my best friend always liked echoes best and actually dropped prime 3 because it was so bad.
Prime 3 over 2 is wild since that game has more steps backwards personally.
It did take many steps backward as a Metroid game and was more linear, but it still outsold Prime 2 and got better reviews. I also prefer it personally as it has better upgrades / progression and environments, and I prefer the narrative as well. It's a weird one because I shouldn't enjoy it as much as I do lol
@@mrsnulch Personally speaking I find the choice to split prime 3 into segmented planets that you still backtrack between to be far more egregious pacing wise than prime 2 which mostly kept you in one zone until you were done with it (it broke this pacing on 2 occasions). Prime 3 you'll be done with bryo then have to go back there just to progress in elysia, same with the pirate homeworld, you'll have to go back to elysia and there are far more rooms to go through when backtracking.
Prime 3 also kinda just goes back to more traditional metroid stuff as opposed to a lot of wholesale new ideas in prime 2.
Also the challenge kinda dissapears on the default difficulties. Motion controls make the game age a little poorly in terms of playing it on anything but original hardware.
There are things in prime 3 I do like, how they finally added a way to mark collectibles on the map, something the series had since super but just didn't do in prime for some reason. Keeping space jump from the beginning helps with platforming, beams stacking is nice and cuts down on menuing, I think that's about it though. It's a good game, every game in the trilogy is but it's just easier to go back to prime 1 and 2 for me.
I've been doing replays of prime 1 recently and jeez did I ever forget how monotonous some of the progression is. From phendrana through magmoor to overworld for space jump, back through magmoor to phendrana up to spider ball, then back through magmoor to ruins for ice beam, then back through magmoor to phendrana for gravity suit, then back through magmoor to overworld to get to the crash site.
That alone is far more tedious than back to temple grounds and a few rooms for seeker missiles.
Or all the way to bottom of bog for power bomb then a few rooms back to sanctuary. Prime 3 only does this twice like prime 2, but the lengths of the backtrack are similar to prime 1 which is what makes it harder to go back to.
All personal complaints, I still love these games, but when you replay them back to back to 100% them it's just something you tend to pick up on. All the loading times in between transitions to different planets and landing sites also kills the pace in prime 3. Door loading times seem to take longer in my experience as well.
Remind me to come back to this
hey
@@astarothaguilera4938 thanks
Yo yo yo! Don't forget to add it to "watch later" hahah!
@@mrsnulch thanks hahah I finished it
I personally found Metroid Prime 2 Echoes to be criminally underrated, I seriously hope they HD Remaster it someday.
The thing about prime echoes is that just like prime hunters its completely skippable storywise. It hardly deserves the title of mainline game tbh.
That's actually a good point, the story doesn't tie in with the rest. Although to be fair (and I can't believe I'm now about to defend Echoes against you here given the fact that I just made a whole video bashing it), I think Echoes successfully shows just how much damage Phazon can lay on a planet. It doesn't fully tie into the other games, but by the time you get to Corruption, you've seen two planets get wrecked by Phazon so in that sense it does contribute.
First uh, before I give my thoughts lol. Good video, really like your editing, and refreshing to hear a different take because Prime 2 is a recent fav for the fanbase. You made a really good vid here.
Ngl though uh, I hard disagree with your take on the beam ammo LOL. I do know it's a common criticism at the time, but generally speaking it is one of THE reasons fights feel more engaging because it gives an extra resource to worry about. In Prime 1 Super Missiles are the dominant strat, and it takes up a ton of ammo so I don't see what makes it much different.
As for the annihilator beam....lol. So others brought up it actually does really good damage. But it's homing properties are really nice, and even better it helps to make dark aether exploration more comfy.
You mentioned the light beam nuking ing when they touch light bubbles. Where the annihilator beam creates a variant that makes Ing want to run straight into them.
Paired with the light suit it makes exploring Dark Aether a non-issue. Maybe you got the impression it does less damage because the enemies you sampled were spongey.
Also about the box thing, I was like 9 when I first played this, and noticed using ammo on the boxes gave me beam ammo lol.
As for the key quest at the end....I would agree with you if Prime 2 hadn't given you a lot more options for getting around the world. The light suit lets you travel between energy controllers, essentially creating a 4-way elevator. Add onto that how each region has elevators to the other regions, it's world design is actually super smart.
For the record, Prime 1 is one of my favorite games of all time (right behind Majora which is funny) but for me I only like Prime 2 marginally less.
Actually when I was younger I received Prime 1&2 at the same time and played them at the same time. I generally seemed to enjoy Prime 2 more but Prime 1's atmosphere was stronger for sure.
I think for me Prime 2 has the far more engaging gameplay and I think that's a huge deal. Atmosphere is important but so is the video game part.
In fact, imma go ahead and say it. Imo Prime 3 is easily the weakest game of the three. It has a lot of great spectacle and art direction, but it has by far the weakest gameplay of the three imo. Most of that coming down to the world-design being the weakest of the three and hyper mode snapping it in two. Not to say there's not great stuff Prime 3 does. I think the story is really cool and epic. I do love that spectacle, and the pointer controls are amazing. I love using those controls so much, and the grapple beam is a lot of fun. But idunno there's just....Something about prime 3's combat that doesn't click with me and it mostly revolves around hypermode. But that's just my opinion lol. Glad you seem to like it a lot more than me.
Anyway hope you don't take this too personally. Obviously if you don't like the ammo system, all good! Just providing my own perspective, and why I think this game is kino.
Have a good one :)
Here is my take. Prime 2 does do many things better than prime one and could very easily be considered to be a superior game, but the faults prime 2 does have hold it back. My main issues are as follows: 1. Agon wastes is a bad first level. It feels barren and the lack of music makes it feel unpleasant to travel through. Chozo ruins doesnt have this problem bc the music, even though it starts out with a more ambient feel, will evolve into a funky bop that makes traversing the area fun and exciting. Also chozo ruins feels lived in, like you are exploring a place people actually used to live in, while agon feels like you are just running round a desert some people attempted to live in but gave up shortly after starting. 2. I like the idea of the dark and light beams being more powerful than your typical beam powers, and the ammo system is semi justified but flawed. I always thought a better system would be to have your l and d ammo regenerate slowly over time and it could regenerate faster when you got the beam ammo expansions. Because of the ammo system, using the annihilator beam and the beam combos are just too impractical. Sure I can defeat enemies faster with those than any other way, but at the cost of utterly decimating my reserves. You will use like 80% of your l and d ammo just to clear a room of space pirates with the annihilator beam, or every beam combo shot will take 25% of your reserves. 3. I completely agree that the pacing for acquiring the beams is bad. You dont get the annihilator beam till you practically have nothing left to do but get sky temple keys and open a few doors.
I fully agree with you and that's a great point about Chozo Ruins vs Agon Wastes, I almost wish I had mentioned that haha. Chozo Ruins is one of my favourite areas ever because you really feel like the Chozo lived and learned there. You can see their nursery, great hall, reflecting pool, etc. You could almost picture them strolling through those halls, discussing astronomy and philosophy, before they suddenly had to scram. Whereas Agon Wastes is just completely in ruins, a little less interesting and not much going on.
And cool point about beam ammo slowly regenerating, then maybe you could speed up regeneration by mucking enemies with the opposite beam. Now that would be a system I could get behind.
Prime 2, that game that the more you play it the better it gets, ya got your first taste in that second replay, slowly but surely, or who knows
The thing is I thought I would feel that way revisiting it, but coming back to it years later and after having a taste for harder games, I still don't love it for the reasons described in the video. I'm sure some people came around on this game, but I can't quite say I'm one of them!
@@mrsnulch Well I have replayed them all for more times that I can count, and 2 is the one that ages the best. But perhaps it's a me thing, time will say it
You nailed every point on the head. The weapon implementation was quite poor. I felt like I was shooting aliens with paintballs for as effective as they were. The weapons were basically door openers rather than a futuristic arsenal. The "Annihilater" beam was such a disappointment I had to shut the game off for a few days before continuing on the obtuse fetch quest. Another weapon deficiency is the missle launcher that couldn't be spammed with the power beam anymore making firing missles sluggish.
I understand that the dark world is supposed to be opposing and dreary but I felt the music was draining on me personally turning the Dark world into a chore rather than a spooky space adventure.
Onwards!
on the contrary, the weapon implementation is excellent for the depth it brings to combat. Their introduction is also exceptionally well designed. In order to obtain the two main beams used for most of the game, you must first obtain space jump during your first foray into the dark world. Doing so pits you against a gambit of quite tanky and challenging encounters: the dark pirates, one ing, and the space guardian. Your peashooter power beam really does feel like a paintball gun against these dark world enemies, and normal pirates are a bit tanky themselves. This makes it all the more satisfying to get the dark and light beams, because they absolutely shred enemies when applied correctly.
Directly after receiving the light beam, you progress to an ing fight for a dark temple key, showing you that a single charged shot and a few uncharged shots can dispatch these previously tanky enemies. A single uncharged shot can instantly kill these tanky enemies if you catch them in a safe zone.
Hopping back to the light world, you shortly encounter a new type of pirate enemy that can be dispatched in just a couple of uncharged dark beam shots.
I'm not sure how you got the impression that they were weak unless you were using them incorrectly.
The best thing is that it's not just simply type matching like in prime, certain combinations render some enemies fodder. Though you would expect only light beam or annihilator to he effective against darklings (ing possessed light world enemies), some are still vulnerable to the freezing effect of a charged dark beam shot, making them able to be killed with 5 dark beam ammo and a missile.
Bosses and encounters consistently provoke you to use everything at your disposal throughout the entire game, *without forcing it* by giving you frequent encounters with enemies simply immune to all other damage types like prime does. Echoes uses a subtle approach that encourages and rewards experimentation, as opposed to color matching for babies. Learning what works effectively is optional (clearly, since you somehow came away thinking the beams were weak), which is just the kind of freedom I'd want from a first person metroid, given the necessary greater aggression and emphasis on combat that comes with that transition.
Contrast that with prime 1 and you see that the weapon progression is something like: power beam is all i have -> i have wave beam, but it does less damage than power beam against almost every enemy I'm seeing, for a minor benefit of briefly stunning some enemies (if charged) -> I have super missiles, I'll just use those because they one shot most everything ‐ > i have ice beam, a charged shot plus one missile kills almost everything instantly -> I have plasma beam, everything dies in a charged shot except bosses and the single magmoor enemy that's resistant to plasma but can even be damaged by beams at all
realistically, you can even skip ice beam step if you're collecting a lot of missiles, super missiles are just better because they track. The beams in prime are designed as if they should stack like in 2d games, there's very little reason to use them after getting the next upgrade except to open doors and for arbitrary colored space pirates immune to all other damage. In echoes, there are multiple enemy + beam combinations that are similarly effective such that you have options throughout the entire game. In prime 1, there is generally one optimal attack (charged plasma beam), if you use any other after you get it, you're wasting time and maybe missiles too. It's superficially satisfying to melt an eternally respawning aeropirate with a charged plasma shot, but on your 10th run through the room, it's primarily just an annoyance that they're there.
One failing of both games is the charge combos.. super missiles are really the only ones that aren't basically a guaranteed waste of missiles/and ammo in both games. Ice spreader is useful, but its functionality is just a reskinned super missile that costs more ammo and freeses for a little bit. Darkburst is a very cool design but rarely hits. The rest are kinda wastes of time and resources
I love Prime 2 but its got issues for sure. High highs and low lows. Aeither might be quite a bit more bland than Tallon 4, but its lore might be more interesting. I love the Luminoth and their struggle against the ING.
The ING! Lol. And interesting, I see where you're coming from but I don't find Aeither more interesting, Tallon 4 is still my favorite planet ever. I love learning about the Chozo and how they had to abandon it, I just think it has more interesting lore. But I see what you mean since you get a bit more "personal" with the Luminoth, you actually get to meet one and see how their fallen soldiers view the Ing, so that is pretty cool I must admit. Wait I actually do admit that at 23:57!
Lol, did realize how funny ING looked until your reply.
Now I can't refer to them any other way. Watch out for the ING man!!!
I’m playing Echoes for the first time now, and while the mechanics take getting used to, I’m hoping the Dark suit I just got makes navigating the dark world less nerve wracking. As for the world itself, yeah I like Talon IV from Prime 1 more, but I can still appreciate something more thematically cohesive in its own way. Not my preference, I usually like my video games to take me on a journey through many different landscapes(Mario 3 > World, literally any 3D game over Sunshine, etc), but I can still enjoy the other approach when done well, and the danger Echoes’ world presents keeps the excitement factor up despite the samey looking environments.
I played it for the first time recently too! It's a great game, although I defintely agree that the world is pretty overbearing. I sometimes have to kind of psyche myself up a for an Echoes play session..
From a statistical viewpoint, Dark Suit reduces your damage from in the dark world from 6 every second to roughly 1 every second. However, it won't feel like much of an advantage because the levels will be designed around that from here on out.
Boost Guardian is a good example of that. If you thought Dark World was nerve-wracking so far, now you have to fight a boss with no light crystals, so you're taking damage the whole time!
The key is to pelt him with as many charged light beam shots as you can. Dodge his boost ball when he transforms (it does 100 damage on GCN IIRC) and bomb him quickly and accurately when he transforms into a puddle so you can attack him again. He's a huge difficulty spike, and you'll only have at most five extra energy tanks before you fight him, so good luck!
@@IntrestingYTObserver Is Boost Guardian the one I’ve heard horror stories about? Or is that another morph ball ability. And yeah that stinks that the game just ratchets up the distance between light to account for the Dark Suit. Bleh
@@robertlauncherYep, he's the one everybody complains about. He'll give you the boost ball when you kill him, which isn't an easy task especially your first time through.
tbh Prime 2 is hard, and the puzzles are complex, but it's immensely satisfying to overcome it all. Especially when you get the final suit (which I won't spoil, although if you watched the video you'll probably know anyway.)
@@IntrestingYTObserver I hate to disappoint, but I saw a shadowy looking boss, busted out the light beam, and guess who’s allergic to the point of making the fight a joke? To be fair, the boss still did take a decent amount of health, so I get why it would be hard if you didn’t use that
@@robertlauncher You beat him? Very nice. I beat him first time too but he got me to like 219/599 health IIRC, it's a stressful fight. And yeah, if you don't know the light beam does the most damage I can imagine him being frustrating. I see why he's complained about.
Goood luck on the rest of the game, especially Spider Guardian. You won't have to fight him for a while but he's another commom stumbling block for someone's first playthrough.
I'm actually thinking of doing a hard mode replay myself where everything does 2x damage and you deal 50% less. Y'know, because Prime 2 wasn't hard enough already😅
I mean it's okay to have the wrong opinion. ;P Just kidding, But I still think Prime 2 is quite batter than 1 The world is more interconnected and the backtracking is kept to a minimum. I love the dark and light theme and I found the addition of an ammo limit interesting. But I'm also a massive fan of survival horror and this game was basically a "survival-horror-lite". Also I've never had a problem with the artifact hunt to begin with because it is an extension of the Metroid gameplay: find stuff, but now you're at full power.
LOL I find with Echoes it's a 50/50 war between those who think it's the best of the 3, and those who think it's the worst. Regarding your points about the backtracking and interconnectivity, I agree for sure that's an improvement Echoes made.
For the ammo limit being interesting and the game being a survival-horror-lite, I can't quite agree with you on that for the reasons I mention in the video. In a survival horror like Resident Evil, if you run out of ammo you're in deep trouble. So there is genuine suspense and strategy required to conserve your resources.
In Echoes, if you run out of ammo you're not in trouble at all, the game just gets boring and annoying using the power beam until you find more. You can also always get more by just shooting boxes or backtracking to a recharge station. So the concept falls completely flat for me and I find all the beams boring. This is of course a matter of preference.
As for the artifact hunt, I also enjoy those sections and like finding them, it's classic. My main argument is that they should be optional and have a secret reward (cool weapon, hidden ending, etc) because making them mandatory makes them less interesting and breaks the pace of the game.
Either way, you make good points and thanks for the watch!!
@@mrsnulch I never found myself running out of ammo to be honest. And if I did I would simly use other sub weapons that are stronger than the regular beam. I think it's a matter of finding the right use for each beam. And when I said Survival-Horror lite I am more talking about the aspect of fight or flight in general. Sometimes it is better to just leave the enemie behind. No point in fighting hunter Ing when they don't even do much to stand in your way. Just light up a light sphere with the light beam and move on.
I'm already a snluch fan but if the next video isn't on luigi's mansion we got a problem
Hahah thanks for being sub'd my dude! I'd love to make a video on that, but there are a few issues. One is that I never played the 3rd one on the 3DS, so my knowledge is incomplete. Two is that I haven't played the first one in many years and lost my gamecube disc!
But I will try to get my hands on it before October - that's when I plan to release my "spooky" videos, and I'd be remiss if a Luigi's Mansion retrospective didn't make that list haha. Cheers!
Yeah, after seeing your video, MP2 wasnt good as people usually tells.
I personally prefer MP3 over it.
I think Nintendo did well in doing MP4 right after remaster of MP1.
If MP2 or MP3 get remaster, that would be at switch 2.
for me most of the Sky Temple keys were in pretty obvious places all you had to do was find previously unused or barely used rooms
Wow you're really butthurt about the beam weapons... I knew about the crates ever since I was a kid, and I never ran out of ammo...
Really didn't bother me at all, and I was able to max out the ammo towards the end so running out with annihilator beam was never a problem
I wouldn't say I'm butthurt, but I have no problem saying that I think the ammo was a bad addition to the Metroid franchise. It doesn't add anything fun to the game since you can just stock up on it by shooting boxes and never run out. And if you do somehow run out, say by experimenting with the cool new combo attacks you get later in the game like sonic boom, then it's just tedious to restock.
I also think the Annihilator beam is a weak weapon that isn't fun to use, and by the time you get it there's only a couple hours left in the game. I just don't like the way Echoes handles its weaponry in general, I prefer the loadout from any other Metroid game.
@@mrsnulch I do think your idea of doling them out slower was a good idea. The light beam is actually too powerful against the dark ing to get in the beginning of the game, it does actually make more sense to get it somewhere in the middle
Hmmhhh, I liked Prime 2: echoes more than Prime 1. The atmosphere just keeps you on edge in Dark Aether in a way Prime 1 just never really does.
The only "negative" someone could trip up on is finding the skytemple keys, however even that is something I didn't find unenjoyable because of the lightsuit keeping it from being annoying to further explore Dark Aether.
I'm a big fan of Prime 2, but considering you're playing the trilogy it's much easier than the original release and the spider ball guardian is much more annoying without the spring ball
Still my favorite Metroid game of all time
Echoes is my favorite game but I more or less agree with every one of your points. I guess I just feel differently about how much those issues matter, especially in comparison to Prime 1. Great video
Thanks for the respectful comment, mad respect! I also totally see why many people are considering Echoes the better game. It sort of comes down to what you value and how it all clicks together for you. I still do like Echoes, but the things I mention in the video personally frustrate me to the point where I just can't put it ahead of the others!
Honestly I agree with this mostly. Like Echos is still a good game but out of the trilogy deffo the weakest. Though I disagree on the Annihilator Beam being a disappointment in most aspects. Except in looks. And instead say the bosses after you get it don’t really promote you using both other than one phase of Emperor Ing.
Another thing I think makes the Dark World unbearable is how fast it drains your health without the dark suit and how long it takes you to get to it and then to get to the light suit. It is so unbalanced.
Though I do have two criticisms that I would put on. The Grenchlers can die. They are more annoying than the Sheegoth and they are pretty much the same enemy. And the boss lineup is kind of forgettable minus the three temple bosses, Dark Samus’ fights, Emperor Ing and the worst to boss fights the Spider Guardian and Boost Guardian that can eat lemons and burn. The rest of the bosses aren’t that good or are forgettable if you haven’t played in a while. 3 imo has the best boss line up and that is even with having Mogenar or however you spell its name
You're actually right, I didn't want to get too into that, but I also would agree Corruption has the best bosses. And to go further, I think Prime 4 will have the best bosses in the series. Since it's coming out in the Fromsoft era where challenging and intense bosses are once again mainstream, I'm really hoping for 4 to combine that sweet Metroid Prime gameplay with some insane bosses that surpass all 3 games in the trilogy so far.
Lol I was playing prime remastered yesterday and finally got past that same part in phazon mines. It was the reason I bounced off the game for so long. But man I'm really enjoying the game better now that's behind me
I know right?! That part comes out of nowhere and if you die during that sequence it's SO demotivating to do it all over again.
Interesting points! Appreciate your perspectives.
Some good points. I still disagree. I do think the ammo and beams work better in combat than primes. But I can tell it did really bother you, so I'll put it down to difference in preference.
Also, the dark world being difficult is not the same as mindlessly going back and forth in the same area over and over. That just makes the game tedious.
Prime 2 does have a worse game ending fetch quest than Prime. The clues were more obtuse than Primes, and getting the keys were more bland to get than the different solutions of Prime.
I did enjoy Metroid Prime 2, and i think it was a necessary sequel, but man... In so many moments this game made me frustrated.... Dark Aether was not really fun to explore because i was getting killed by breathing, and some enemies were far too anoying to deal with. When i finished the Torvus Bog, i remember i was tired of the game, but when i arrived in the Sanctuary Fortress, i really started to love the game, but the first 2 areas were... harder than they should have been in my opinion. It has some of the best boss fights in the series, but some of the worse too. Yeah, the Spider Guardian can burn in the dephs of hell and i would be happy. The Dark Samus Battles are pretty cool tho and Quadraxis was awesome. I think Prime 2 has huge ups, and really low downs. It's a good game overall, but i think it went too hard many times.
Yeah, I'm with you there. I know it comes off like I really hate the game in this video, but I do think it has some strong suits. Sanctuary is one of the coolest areas in the series. But I'm glad we're on the same page about the dark world being a slog and the boring atmosphere, those are two big things that hold the game down for me.
@@mrsnulch I don't think the dark world is boring per se, but having to explore when my health is constantly being drained is just far too hard for it's on good. Like, after i got the Light Suit, i had a lot of fun exploring these areas, but before that, is was a pain to go through. I also think that the atmosphere is good, but comparing to Primes 1 and 3 (SPECIALLY THE GFS VALHALLA) it feels pretty repetitive having to backtrack it before getting the light suit. Oh, and i hate the Spider Guardian
Played this game for the first time 2 years ago and I wanted to pull my hair out all the way through. You put into words extremely well why this one didn't land for me, and even offered some new perspective I didn't have. Great video
The majority of the commenters so far have been team Echoes, so it's great to have a comrade on my side! I found Echoes insufferable when I first played it as well. I definitely appreciate it more now, but for the reasons mentioned in the video I still find it inferior to the others. Cheers!
@@mrsnulch ahh well in that case, Id be eager to join the trenches!
@@undergalaxy775 I wonder if Retro thought that Prime 1 was a bit easy, so they used limited ammo to make it harder???? So the player can't over power enemies , but instead focus on survival?????
@@orangeslash1667 that could be, though funnily enough that didnt even register as a flaw in my mind until the video mentioned it. I merely found it overly repetitive and confusing
@@undergalaxy775 Fun Fact: Prime 3 was originally suppose to be bigger, but hardware limitations prevented them from doing so. The end result became the exact opposite of Prime 2.
Prime 1 is hard, Prime 2 is easy, and I am the only sane one. Really though I feel like I'm living in a parallel world sometimes when watching these prime reviews, I died to pretty much every Prime 1 boss at least once, if not multiple times, and I only died 2 times total during my Prime 2 playthrough, I found the game to be overall so much easier in basically every way, it was more fun I'll agree with that, I normally do like a challenge but Prime 1 bosses tended to take way too long to kill and often turned into boring slog-fests, Prime 2 fights generally had a better flow to them, even if they were a bit easy for my tastes. Maybe it's cuz I've so far only played each game once, but that's been my experience with Prime's difficulty. Oh and I found Prime 3 to be in the middle, harder than Prime 2 but easier than Prime 1. I agree with a lot of your criticisms here regarding Prime 2 (expect for those regarding exploration, but I'm the type that loves to comb every nook and cranny looking for secrets), overall though I'd still rate it above Prime 3, even if lower than Prime 1
Nope prime 2 was harder
I love both games, but for different reasons. From a more technical/"objective" standpoint, MP2 maintains pretty much everything that made MP1 good, and improves progression through the game by fixing the particularly egregious backtracking journeys of MP1, but it suffers from some glaring difficulty spikes, most notably the Boost Guardian, and the first trips into the Dark world can be tedious because of how much you have to wait around to recharge your health.
Being completely subjective though, if I had to choose only playing one of them for the rest of my life, I'd go with MP1, for no other reason than just because it "feels" more like a "true" Metroid game.
this game had a habbit to crash at times for me soo, not really a favorit, and another was the hassle to change back and forth between the worlds.
Wait... hold on. If the ammo was never an issue, why is it an issue? I thought the ammo was going to be problematic because it gets in the way of the battle, only for you to say in the end, strategizing means nothing since tou can just kill the enemies and replenish ammo without a problem. Just to point out an inconsistency. The annihilator beam does suck, though. I thought I was going to kick ass and I never did. Looks really cools though... shame.
I wish Temple Grounds was more flourished. It would have been great to step out from the Galactic Federation to a grand Luminoth entrance, instead we're just there inside... wait how did I get in here, where was this? I do disagree with the complains for Torvus and Sanctuary Fortress. Not even Tallon Ovetworld is as strickingly jungly and humid as Torvus, and no other game has created such strickingly cybernetic environment as the Fortress. Sure, they are Dark, but so was Tallon Overworld and Phrendranas Depths. Ago Wastes and the Temple Grounds do look the same and I never felt like I was going anywhere from those two. Which is why both Torvus and the Fortress were so incredible. And the architectural design... get out of here! I love that shit. Unfortunately the Chozo ruins they all felt like walking the same corridors, not gonna lie. Same happened with the Luminoth, but were different once you get to the Fortress, and tiny bit in Torvus. Prime 2 was more thematically consistent and made more sense each place. For Prime, it was gamey; don't tell me you don't think Magmoor feels out of place. Where did Phendrana come from? Right next to a jungle? Mind you, I love Phendrana, it's my favorite area, but we have got to admit it doesn't make sense. Sure, suspension of disbelief helps, but in Prime 2 they tried to make it make more sense. Which, clearly didn't pan out, because they went for 4 planets in Prime 3 to have a ton of different environments and make them make sense (this lead to, unfortunately, a horrible issue I have with it... such a big one, that I hated it).
The dark world's glaring issue, I cannot defend. It really is just a more obscure version of light world. I enjoyed the concept that you can't go through the same paths as the light world, so some areas you have to visit later in the dark world and areas you visit first before going to the light world, so it's a double whammy of "I don't know what to expect behind this door" and sometimes the dark world is just completely different; take the space pirates research station that doesnt exist in the Dark Agon. A huge miss for the Ings Hive, if you ask me, which I was expecting it to be the organic counterpart of the cybernetic Fortress. I would have loved more emphasis on military stuff in the dark world besides the crystals.
All I can think is all these issues could have been fixed with more time on their hand which I believe they didn't and were pushed to release a new game quickly. The fetch quest is probably another mistake from this.
All in all, I agree with everything you said, but I do believe it's a bit overblown. Except for the fetch quest; it sucks so badly.
That said. Metroid Prime 3 was not that good....in fact, I would go as far as to say it was bad. It had some irredimably gameplay issues. Heck, the only cool thing about Prime 3 is their environments, because even the fights are boringly long and too easy. And some of the bosses are just too long and convoluted all because they needed to use the wiimote... and don't get me started with all the wiimote puzzles! The most fun I had with Prime 3 was fighting Rundas and Gandrayda, and going back to the frozen side of Bryo. This last one was a surprise given how sick I already was of flying everywhere!! Its savig grace was the fetchquest, which isn't even a quest.
I've only really played 2D metroids. Is Prime 1 really as good as Super? How is it compared to Dread? If someone could answer my questions that would be nice
I don't think the 2D and 3D titles can be compared.
All the things that define a metroidvania work way better in the 2D games for me: Exploring, collecting new things, finding new areas. Revisiting old areas doesn't feel as tedious.
But the 3D games are really immersive, which is nice. The atmosphere can be fantastic and drew me in more than the 2D games did.
I would say if you really like the gameplay specifically of the 2D games, it's not fully replicated in the 3D. 3D games have a slower pace. But the game design and atmosphere are captured incredibly well. If you want the short answer, I see no reason not to buy Metroid Prime Remastered on the Switch. I'd recommend all Metroid Prime games any day.
nahhh not as good as super. the gameplay is way slower.
even if you go through the whole game only scanning what you need to it's still slow.
its definitely an essential game to play but not as good or replayable as super metroid.
It is not the same
But it is very metroid
3D metroid is a completely different thing. Can't compare the 2 of them really, just enjoy both of them instead of trying to replace 1 with the other.
hard disagree on the beams. Annihilator could be stronger, but I feel you missed the entire point of the combat in Echoes. You're not supposed to be stronk with a single weapon until enemies catch up to you and you get something new. You're supposed to be thinking about your enemy's composition, and using the weapon that best counters it. Almost Everything can be deleted from the moment you see it if you're using the right weapon. The one exception are Ing Smashers, but you're on your way to get Power Bombs when you first fight them, so it's not long before you can delete them as well. Speaking of Smashers, kind of bad faith argument to show Plasma deleting an aero trooper, only to show Annihilator tickling a Smasher. Bro, Smashers have a ton of health. They are essentially minibosses. Only Power Bombs delete Smashers. What are you doing?
And before you say it. Yes even Ing Hunters and Dark Commandos can be deleted. Hunters will die immediately if you get in their face with a charged light beam, and Commandos die really fast if you hit them with charged dark beam and follow up with a missile. If you think anything is spongy it's because you're doing it wrong m8. The spongiest enemies are Smashers, and dark beam still makes short work of them.
Also fun fact:
Chykka is technically a neutral enemy. Any beam is about as effective as the others, but dark and light still do more damage than power, so take that as you will.
Adult Chykka is a light creature who becomes dark when she takes a big gulp of dark water. So the opposite beams are most suitable for this phase (if you can land dark shots anyway). Point is no, because dark world use light beam is not what you're supposed to be doing. I'm sorry Prime 2 asked you to think about the combat.
The one thing I will kind of give you is shooting crates. Well, mostly cuz the system where ammo drops when killing with the opposite weapon really should just lead to bonus drops. The game just drops ammo when you run out anyway, so a system of either allowing the player to influence/earn bonus amounts of what drops they get would be nice. I feel like that's the real issue here. The game is a bit too restrictive on how you get ammo. Not that the ammo itself is the problem.
Echoes was incredibly immersive, but also unnecessarily painful, and didn't have a strong connection to the first game besides the title and the main character. I did really enjoy the world and the world building, and the gameplay with the bosses was difficult in satisfying ways, but I think a new control scheme would help with a lot of those.
Many members of Retro studios had already made turok series on PC/N64, they were making mods for games on the PC. Every developer in the industry back then was doing shit for the PC. So no, Retro studios was assured decent chance of success because everyone had been making doom 2, quake, descent and warcraft 2 levels of the PC in the mid 90's to late 90's.
I have both the Wii version of the Metroid Prime Trilogy and a unused copy of Metroid Prime 2 Echoes never opened, I got a couple of years ago in the bargin bin for a penny.
I gave it a shot when it released but it never clicked.
-The ammo is a nitpick, sorry
-I get wanting more interesting upgrades, but I don’t think it ruins the game; I think the flow of the upgrades is actually better than the first game-areas are easier to traverse, and I think there’s less back and forth, and puzzles are more experimental
-the atmosphere is contentious, i think it’s important to note that it isn’t Prime 1
Prime 1 is a rollercoaster ride across different biomes, Echoes is more narrative-driven
The areas are bleak and dusty because the planet is war-torn; the dark world by comparison feels a lot more alive and dangerous
Then there’s the 180 of Sanctuary Fortress-that area is incredible and unlike anything else in a Metroid game
You can prefer the first game but acting like Echoes torments you is ridiculous
Personally, I think the world could do with less of these videos, negative toxic hitpieces by people insecure of having the most common opinion
These are all legitimate points. Great video 👍. Couldn't agree more tbh, still like the game, but it's not one I like to replay like 1 and 3.
Kinda makes me worried about prime 4 tbh because retro has explicitly stated they are tired of making prime games which is why I'm guessing they originally went with Bandai namco.
Yeah I'm with you, I still like Echoes and am worried I came off like I can't stand it. It's a good game. But it has these issues that just grind my gears and make it inferior to the others.
As for Prime 4, I have a feeling they will be playing it super "safe" with that game. It looks like it's leaning a lot closer to Prime 1 and 3, so I think it will be a safe return to form, but not do anything crazy and blow our minds. Which I'm ok with.
It's always been interesting what negatives bother people more in each game. Each game could be and is someone's favourite in the trilogy. But for what it's worth here are some disagreements I have with the video for whatever that's worth.
Obviously the following is all my opinion as the video is your opinion.
In regards to difficulty the original non wii version was too difficult in two particular bosses against the devs wishes. If you enjoy the difficulty of those bosses that's fair but the devs have since adjusted it.
I agree that it sucks you don't get many weapons throughout but comparing the best beam from 1 and 3 on weak enemies to the best beam against a mini boss in 2 is a bit disingenuous. The annihilator beam does feel less powerful in its sound design and effects but its still much more powerful and great to have when you get it, you can't use it all the time due to the ammo system but while on the topic the ammo system is quite enjoyable to me.
Prime 1 had infinite ammo for all beams but the wave bream and ice bream didn't feel more powerful and were mainly just stronger or weaker against different enemies, it still meant there was never a reason to go back to the power beam or even the ice or wave bream for the most part, the plasma beam feels great granted but it defeats the purpose of even being able to swap beams half the time by the end.
In prime 3 combat has very few options because you just have a few attacks that get stronger varients, in the 2d games that works because enemies are more obstacles that can be defeated really quickly.
In prime 2 all beams have utility due to the ammo system. The power beam can kill everything but rather slowly, worth swapping to for weak enemies or in a pinch if you're low. The light and dark beams both feel and are powerful because you can't just use use your most powerful attacks all the time. Worrying about ammo during combat also increases the decisions you need to make and all together to me makes combat in prime 2 feel way better then either of the other games.
When you say atmosphere I think your issue is more aesthetics or that you find the look of the world too samey which is fair and a common critisicm. But again your comparison of how the games can look to me showed screenshots that would look similar when there is more variety to the areas then that, even if it's all dark.
I think the sanctuary fortress is one of the coolest looking locations in the series and other areas combined with their different themes give them their own feel. There is less visual variety then in other games granted but it's not as bad as you suggest in my opinion.
The dark world doesn't help the complaints about the game looking the same granted. But when showing off how your health drained in the dark world you showed a early part of the game where you may have not even had the dark suit yet. The dark world becomes very manageable as the game goes on and you get the tools to conquer it. If anything my complaints would be the dark world can be a bit limited due to each area being closed off compared to light world versions but that's not a big deal to me.
Saying it's not a good sequal because it has the fetch quest the first one you have so much admiration for does seems odd to me as it is better in the 2nd in my opinion.
Firstly if you're not scanning luminoth bodies when you find them I think you're not using a major game mechanic that the devs expect you to use, it's an important way story and tone are communicated in the games. But even if you do miss a body or two the game tells you where the bodies are, but also these days they can just google it even if that's not ideal.
And at least in prime 2 you get a (admittedly limited) form of fast travel to speed up the process and often end up in new areas you havnt explored yet.
Prime 2 makes backtracking better by making all areas more connected, magmore caverns was an issue since it was the only way to get between locations alot of the time.
I feel some of the comparisons of things from one game to another were bent a bit in favour of your arguments and I'm not super fond of that.
Considering alot of people watch things like this who havnt played the games or havnt in a while and this can create somewhat false narratives of how things actually are.
But I respect your opinion and enjoyed hearing a point of view that was so opposite to my own.
Oh and also the reason the ammo mechanic hasn't returned is not because it's a failed experiment necessarily (although due to mixed reactions I assume it won't return) but because retro didn't make another prime game except for 3 which didn't have multiple beams at all.
And lastly as I'm not sure I made this clear.
I think all 3 prime games are amazing and my favourite is not always 2.
And also I'm not suggesting you're intentionally skewing the narrative here just that I don't think it represents things as they are imo.
Tbh your thoughts on prime 2 are very similar to mine. I think it’s a great game but I always thought prime 1 was better even when I first played it as a kid. I laughed about the annihilated beam, that is SO USELESS.
In my opinion prime 2 is far better than 1
This game is good but not perfect (especially with the annoying bosses).
Metroid Prime 1 is definitely better, even with the downsides. 😊 It's a timeless classic
AGREED!
great video the quality was incredible
Thanks so much! I do wish I had captured the metroid prime footage on an emulator for better video quality - the footage is all running off gamecube/wii and looks a bit sloppy. Either way though, glad you enjoyed the video!
@@mrsnulch no it's fine if anything it just helps highlight 1 the issue with Prime 2's graphics and 2 how good the hd remaster is
@@lemonking3851 Ah good point, thanks that makes me feel better about using such footage! I do use HD footage a bit as well. I kick off the video with HD to "hook" the viewer in with the snazzier graphics, and also drop it in a few times throughout the video like 24:26, so you can really see the comparison. I guess using the OG hardware gives my video a vintage feel if nothing else lol. Thanks for the feedback!
@@mrsnulch All good can't wait for the next video!
Altho I disagree with some of your points, you laid out your ideas clearly
lol didn't umos the first guardian lose the energy to the first reactor to that very first ING you fought? the one down stairs literally from him lol. bro couldn't even be bothered getting it an elevator ride away. then later on we see this massive city they built. why not put the energy controllers in there i mean it seems most of the population is there probably better guarded from the ing there,
The Luminoth were brave warriors, but they weren't very bright. For some reason they created the annihilator beam as well
@@mrsnulch Are you hopeful for metroid prime 4 dude?
@@jinxxpwnage Yes, very much so! Although I do have some slight concerns. I may make a video on this topic. I think from the trailer, they are playing it very safe by sticking close to homages to Prime 1 and Prime 3 and throwing in some fan service, but we will see how it plays out. I'm 100% sure the game will be good, but it might be a bit underwhelming.
Doom eternal weapons run out faster, and bfg amo is harder to get. 👀prime echos is not the only game that run out of Amo.
Yes lots of games have ammo not just Echoes, but I think other games are designed around it better, and it doesn't suit the Metroid formula. Metroid games are all about Samus getting stronger and stronger across the game and I don't think limitations like this work or make the combat any better.
This is and amazing sequel
Playing all of the Prime games for the first time. I liked two more than one and three the most. But not being a kid anymore, I grown to dislike Prime 3 the most. As a kid I really liked shooters, growing up in the 90's a early odds there were a lot of shooters. But as I've grown older I really don't like shooters at all anymore. And I think Prime 3 is the worst of the three now, because it's basically just a Halo clone with Metroid paint on it. Yeah, there are also more unique metoid stuff in there. But where the other two feels like first person Metroid games, Prime 3 feels like a shooter, with some Metroid stuff in there. Because they had to.
Prime 1 is good, but it's also got this intangible hollowness to me. And I guess it just really never vibed with me as much the second game.
There are alot of awful things about Prime 2, or atleast the original game cube version. Boostball and Spiderball Guardians come to mind. But overall I think what I appreciate about Prime 2 over 1. Is just how the "story" and progression feels more consistent to me, rather than just of random and messy like in Prime 1. While also inciting the same feeling of adventure and just getting lost the the world I get from most of the 2d Metroid games. I guess Prime 2 just scratches my Metroid itch better than Prime 1.
its interesting you didnt like the backtracking in prime 1 and especially echoes, but you seem to like 3, i feel like 3 was the worst, having several different maps made it very difficult trying to find collectibles and traversal was very annoying (especially skytown).
one thing you didnt mention about 2 is the forced enemy encounters with he cloaking space pirates, this made backtracking such a pain because they're very tanky
Skytown was amazing. Prime 3 is not the worse
@@angelvillegas9604 skytown was absolutely infuriating to backtrack through, the tone was way off as well, there was none of the loneliness the other 2 games had except for the space pirate base that was really good
honestly
i understand the criticism
but i will never understand why people like metroid prime 3 so much
it doesn't even feel like an actual adventure game like 1 and 2 did
it feels like a glorified rail shooter with way too much focus on "we want to be the new halo"
MP: ECHOES is my favorite of trilogy, is dense, convoluted, long, hard, tediously hard, confusing, dark, awesome music, I LOVE IT!
Echoes is the best game in the Metroid series. Lay off the Phazon.
Not just the Prime trilogy, but the entire Metroid series you say! And I'm the one snorting fat lines of Phazon??!
@@mrsnulch Hell yeah. You have that good shit. I want some so I can get some Phazon fever
@@johnjackson9751 Haha I don't share my hollywood purple slime rails, sorry my dude
Ah Metroid Trilogy, the game i got two copies of and never read on my Wii.
Echoes it's just too long and boring in half through. The first half of the game is so bad compare to the second half.
Anhihilator beam only serves as Sonic Boom beam.
Yeah the Sonic Boom slapped pretty hard, but I also found that it gobbled up so much ammo that it was rarely worth using. Right from the top of the game to the bottom I still feel like the best approach is to just use the dark and light beams everywhere you go lol.
I never seen about people doubting about MP before it came out in 2002 🤔 if there was someone who doubt it, they must have been idiots 😂 Prime is the best entry in the whole series.
The thing is, before Metroid Prime came out there hadn't been a Metroid game in 8 years (Super Metroid). When Metroid Prime was announced and the first trailer was shown, people were worried because it was a slow-paced first person shooter. They weren't idiots, they waited 8 years for another game like Super Metroid (a fast-paced sidescroller), and finally they are shown a slow paced FPS that looked like it was Nintendo's response to Halo. There were fair concerns before it came out.
Now if you actually played it and still hated it on the other hand, I'd agree you're probably an idiot haha
@@mrsnulch 😆
Big disagree but ok.
If everyone thought like you, we'd have world peace by now. Disagree, but OK. I feel the same way to those who prefer Echoes - can't get behind it, but all good man haha