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What's wrong with pleasure?
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2018
- What's wrong with pleasure? It often seems as though sensory pleasures are an unalloyed good, the sorts of things that we should aim to gain as much of during our lifetimes as possible. The Buddha had a somewhat different view of them however, which we will consider in this video.
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Doug you should do a TED talk sometime...you do a great job of connecting buddhist ethics with daily life :)
Ha! Well thanks G Unite, I hope the pointers are useful to you as well. 😄
Ted talks are so cringey.
these videos are on much higher level than TED talks, though
This really rings true to me. Recently I got my phone stolen, and I have invested so much of my personal identity into this gadget I'm holding right now that I had a breakdown and it marred the experience of my best friend's wedding for me. It showed me how dependent I'd become on this little dopamine machine, and how much of our brains and life we store in them. I want out.
Yes, moments like that are sort of like momentary flashes of awakening. We see the problems, and maybe a potential solution. Thanks Targaryen.
Good discussion. One of the key insights of the Buddha’s early writings is the proper use of pleasure. Faultless pleasures like those one gets from meditation are actually key to giving the mind wholesome pleasures. These mental pleasures can do much to satiate the mind which can leave us quite peaceful as it makes us way less vulnerable to chasing pleasures that are hard to control and that when achieved are done so at the cost of others (including our non-human brothers and sisters), the planet and our well being overall. So he recognizes the importance of pleasure as a motivation for cultivation of the mind. This is the brilliance of the middle way.
Yes exactly SmileBot, it’s a brilliant insight. 🙏
The philosopher of pleasure was Epicurus and he was very cognizant of the limits of desires and of pleasures (aka "hedonic threadmill"), but saw in them no excuse to reject pleasant living. The key is rational calculus of pleasure, and he explains this in detail in his Letter to Menoeceus, middle portion. To fall into asceticism is unnatural, unhealthy and irrational. We all want pleasures, and Epicurean ethics furnish the right way to live pleasantly.
Exactly so, which is why the Buddha also rejected asceticism, opting for the “middle way” between indulgence and asceticism.
I get pleasure from hearing positivity. You're such a good friend to us that you even take the time to respond. A comment, I live in the eastern United states but seldom see blue jays where I live now days.
Interesting! They’re all around the NE, maybe you live farther south? 🙂
@@DougsDharma Indeed. Much further lol. Tennessee!
According to my bird guide blue jays should be year round in Tennessee!
@@DougsDharma I see Cardinals all the time. I just don't see blue jays much. That's neat you got a guide. Birds are my favorite part of nature. They are so meditative.
Very great post. Thank you.
Early Buddhism taught us impermanence of all things. Buddha taught us everything is in constant change and nothing stays the same. Pleasurable conditions, or security and comfort to hold on to the attachments are a form of sufferings. However, it is impossible to live without attachments. To goals are not to eradicate them but to change from poison into medicine. In the words of Nichiren, to be enlightened concerning them. I always try to remind myself, "Not advancing in life, it is also regressing." Not having enough is also a form of sufferings. Understanding we are living in the transient world, we all will go through aging, sickness, and, death. Attachments and pleasures are desires that can only fuel the quest of enlightenment. We need to see them clearly, master them rather than being master by them.
Thank you. 🙏
You're very welcome Michael, thanks for your thoughts! 🙏
Among all channels on you tube yours the best Mr Doug. Simply because its about ending suffering. Most others are about increase suffering. Once Lord Buddha slept by a tree near rough road while traveling. In the morning a prince came by smiled and asked Did you slept well in this rough terrain? Buddha replied, In this world I am one of the few who sleep well. Since Im free of Craving and Anger.So its clear most of us havent tasted true happiness.Its a different kind of happiness arrived by non attachment quite different to modern thinking. IMHO Seeking excessive pleasure will always painful and leads to dukka,which is a hard lesson to learn for most of us.🙏
It is a hard lesson, but as we become wiser we see how true it is. Thanks CA! 🙏
Sadhu sadhu
I sincerely thank you for all of your efforts and due diligence, you're a gentleman and a scholar!
You're very welcome! 😊
Wow, this resonated so much with me. I get a truly nonsensical amount of frustration from feeling like I can’t keep up with all the games and TV shows I want to play/watch. And I also never finish those things because I always wonder if a different one could give me more pleasure.
It had never occurred to me where this destructive cycle was coming from but this was really eye opening and helpful. And I can also see all the ripple effects from this way of thinking in other areas of my life.
I'm glad it was helpful to you! 🙏😊
Well said my friend this was very much me also. Every time i got a new game it wouldn't even be done downloading before i was back to the game store
What a clarity of thoughts of you in this video! This video has answered many questions in my mind thank you so much.
You're very welcome Shreyas! Thanks for the comment.
Thanks Doug for this great video!
I feel like there are different levels of pleasure. Sense pleasures seem to be a lower level of pleasure due to their fleeting and addictive qualities like you mentioned. Pleasure based on ethics, compassion, mindfulness, and inner purpose seem more wholesome and inspirational to me.
Also, I have noticed for me that it is very easy to fall into sense pleasure and lose myself in them in unhealthy ways.
Yes indeed Dan. The Buddha also discusses mundane and supramundane pleasures, rather in the way you suggest. The mundane pleasures involves sense pleasures. Supramundane pleasures involve elements of the path, such as the pleasure of gaining wisdom and so on. I think the pleasure of behaving ethically, mindfully, with compassion and inner purpose would also be such supramundane pleasures. As you note, there is nothing wrong at all with pleasures of that kind. 🙂
This video is definitely one of your best videos, but it doesn't really apply to me because I'm basically a minimalist and I get pleasure out of the little things in life. I think practicing mindfulness and being in the moment is very important when it comes to getting rid of craving to sense pleasures. It's important to just see life as it truly is instead of focusing on how great your life would be if you had material possessions. That being said, I know a lot of people who struggle with this issue. My father is definitely a person who struggles with this and some of my friends do as well.
Thanks for the kind words Afanasi, I’m glad this doesn’t affect you so much. 🙏
I agree that this is a brilliant video. I'm beginning to enjoy Doug very much. I often start to listen to a Buddhist teacher, (because I have a desire to find a teacher or sangha, after many years of mostly solitary meditation and study of Dharma) but quickly get disenchanted due to dogmatic and rigorous religious practices, or general sexism and misogyny. ( I worked so hard to escape the mental slavery I experienced within Western religious structures). But I digress. What I wanted to say this was a particularly brilliant video because it is actually very helpful with confronting the topic of desire in day-to-day life, without just acting as an apologist for traditional practices. The reason I'm responding under this particular comment is because I, like this person, find my "pleasures" in living small, simply, close to the Earth. In fact, I have somewhat of an aversion to possession acquisition. So, rather ironically, I have my own desire issues to deal with. LOL.
This one is really interesting to me because I watch a lot of your videos, and on multiple occasions when you've spoken about issues of attachment, I thought, "like the hedonic treadmill." I learned this term from a Coursera course I took with Dr. Laurie Santos (she's a professor at Yale - very bright woman) called The Science of Well-Being. Was interesting to see you then use the term. She talked a lot about how striving for wealth or different sense pleasures has shown to not lead to lasting happiness because we just end up wanting the next thing.
Although, she made some claims about how the results of many studies would show that increase of wealth does actually make people happier in a somewhat lasting way up to a certain threshold, essentially to the point where it's not "seeking the next sense pleasure" but rather just fulfilling the fundamental basic needs (decent food, shelter, relative safety.) I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on whether there's a difference in issues of attachment at a more fulfilling-the-basic-needs level, if that makes sense.
Right, it's hard to say for sure, but I expect for most of us a basic amount of wealth makes life significantly less stressful. That said, a monastic gets by on practically nothing. So long as they have lay followers willing to donate ... !
Your videos are always very well thought through and informative. This has come at the perfect time for me, thanks :)
Thanks so much Sgt. Bob. I’m glad you found the video useful, makes it worth the effort! 🙂
informative and insightful helps me grasp Buddhism better
Glad to hear it was helpful!
That was Brilliant Doug marvellous presentation
Thanks Alfred, very kind of you. Glad you found it useful. 🙏
I think we should view pleasures as a tool to serve our purpose. I mean there are materialistic things which definitely improve your well-being and the quality of life which might help you achieve your mission. For example, if you have plenty of money, it will help you get the best of nutrition, the best of fitness, the best of the healthcare which eventually going to help you perform more efficiently. So, apart from the debate of whether the pleasures are bad or good, I think we need to acknowledge the fundamental fact that PLEASURES DO EXISTS FOR SOME REASON; and I think suppressing the craving for pleasures is not natural. Channelising/managing your urges for pleasures is the best way to address this. Well said in the video that finding pleasures in small things is a great way to be content and happy. Thank you for reading. Please reply if you feel the need.
Yes pleasures have their benefits, there's no doubt about that. The problem is that they also condition craving for more.
@@DougsDharma fully agree on this. It's amazing to hear from you! thanks.
thank you Doug for your videos!! Im still very stuck with pleasure, but at least this video made me aware of the downside of it. Thank you so much for your videos!! :)
You're very welcome, Manuel!
I really enjoy your lectures!
Glad you like them! 🙏
Such a great explanation. Thanks Doug!
My pleasure, Greazy!
yep, avoiding the pleasure trap since a few months nowy and it is really helpful in being happier
That's great to hear Philipp. Yes, it's an ongoing practice!
I think the pleasure isn't really the problem per se, not even desire, attachment is the problem, attachment to pleasure, attachment to desire. If you are experiencing pleasure, that's ok, enjoy it mindfully knowing that it will end and when it does let it go. If you have a desire just observe it and let go, don't treat it as a must or as a need.
That’s right Gabriel. Pleasure itself isn’t the problem, it’s our tendency to attach to the pleasure that’s the problem.
And that's an important distinction that I don't see stressed enough specially given we come from a christian culture that demonizes pleasure to an extent that is pretty detrimental to one's psych, buddhism had been twisted in that judgemental way a lot of times also in the past. I see budhism in the matter of pleasure as a much needed middle way between old christianity mortification and chastity values and modern day consumerist and imediatistist, "live the moment", work hard part hard values.
Quite right Gabriel, that’s the essence of the Buddha’s Middle Way: ruclips.net/video/oFc3PPS3-b8/видео.html
Doug, Thank you.🙏
🙏😊
awesome video! thank you!
My pleasure!
Thank you so much Mr.Doug
My pleasure, Ivankov.
Excellent talk. Have you considered writing a book? :)
Yes, I've been on it for awhile now ... it's getting published that's the holdup!
Thanks Doug!
You're very welcome Federico!
Pleasure feeling or pain feeling or neutral feeling comes and goes for the moment.
When being pleasure feeling, the ego(self- image) thinks I have full of feeling as a resul, self- pride or self-admiration. The ego wants to be desired for much pleasure.
When being pain feeling, the ego thinks I will be in trouble or my feeling is troublesome. The ego is angry himsely or others.
When being neutral feeling, the ego thinks nohing.
There is no one who does not like pleasure feeling and everyone hate pain feeling. It is possible that the neural feeling is difficult to understand. There is no problem that cannot be solved.
According to Buddha, all feeling is changeable for the monment; so, feeling is suffering. All in all, cause and effect: four noble truth or dependent origanation. Thanks.
You're very welcome Win Thu, thanks for the message!
It's basically " More, give me more ...." by Fever Ray 'If I Had A Heart' song !
Sure, I don't know the song but I guess so! 😄
Hi Doug. I agree with your assessment of the hedonic treadmill and the unnecessary pressures people put onto themselves because of their addiction to pleasures, especially the costly ones. I have a question though: I'm guessing that even the "simpler pleasures" of everyday life can become more insidious and turn into a kind of addiction. I'm mentioning this because I'm an (aspiring) musician, I take great pleasure in creating music and also listening to it, I feel really passionate about perfecting my craft and, well, I consider sensitivity to music and musical creativity to be an important part of my - well - personality. All this occasionally creates some inner tensions as I can become ambitious about it, but mostly I feel it's beneficial in a way it puts me in a pleasurable mental state and occasionally I stumble upon something which I feel is really beautiful and believe that others could feel that way as well if I put it in a piece of music. I'm saying all this because this whole area is, after all, a domain of sensual pleasure, moreover, it seems to be tied to the idea of self/personality (the idea of talent and so on) and - well my question is: can this sort of practice go together with a meditative way of life (which I feel will be beneficial to me because of my anger issues etc), or is it fundamentally a hindrance? I'm asking partly because a I watched a video by a Buddhist teacher on another channel who said that he renounced music just like all kinds of other pleasures, as something which excites passions and goes against the idea that one should be impartial to whatever experience happens. Sorry for the long question but - please advise :)
To be more precise: the problem I encounter with musical composing, for instance, is that often one makes (sometimes almost unconscious) choices towards what "feels" better (so a certain drive towards pleasure and against pain). Which I guess is true about many areas of life as well, such as social life, romantic attraction etc - but is this inherently wrong/neurotic? And can I do insight meditation without renouncing all this? Is there a way for, say, musicians or other kinds of artists to reconcile it with Buddhism and insight meditation?
Well, the Buddha did tell his monastics to avoid things such as music and dancing (and sleeping in high beds, etc.), presumably because of their association with sensual pleasures. But unless you are intending to become a monastic, it shouldn't be an issue. It's great to be aware of the dangers, since that awareness can help you to avoid some of the bigger pitfalls. And also be aware that there are Buddhist musicians and artists, indeed there is a long history of Buddhist art. I did a video on the topic awhile back, though focusing on visual arts in particular: ruclips.net/video/ydYLXYvz6oA/видео.html
@@DougsDharma thank you! This is encouraging :) I will look up your video and Buddhist art
I think, its a paradox (I don't know if I used the correct english word). If we live minimalistic life we will be happier but economy relies on business of Entertainment, medicines and weapons, all which can reduce if people become minimalistic. Then nation may get weaker in military and that's the reason why Govt want us to work harder.
Well yes, people’s jobs and economic welfare depend upon continued consumption. The question is how to balance consumption so that it becomes sustainable. I discussed such things in a few past videos such as this one: ruclips.net/video/Y6fAWKCtiik/видео.html , or check out my playlist on politics and society. 🙂
Thank you very, very much for this video; during a long time I have felt something wrong on how society an individuals feel and evaluate what pleasure """"really is according to them"""" and how I appreciate my surroundings, living beings around me (I'm an ecologist) and how people evaluate happiness related to shopping malls in my country (Panamá, the country of materialism, commerce, shopping malls, vanity and superficial people that resemble flyes attracted to a decaying corpse)
You're very welcome Edgardo, thanks for watching and for the comment! There may be materialism in Panamá but in my experience there are many "countries of materialism" on earth ... 🙂😕
When u desire something u endure suffering for pleasure, which is known as hardwork. When u don't desire something u don't endure the suffering, but u don't get the pleasure, which is laziness, so it seems to me that both are equally worth it, that being lazy and hardworking person will expeirience the same amount of life satisfaction, then why do wise people say that a hardworking person is better than a lazy person. Should i just be lazy or not, I am having trouble making this decision?
Well the point isn't to be lazy, sixth stage in the Eightfold Path is Right Effort. The question is how we apply that effort and to what ends? Are we only looking for sensual pleasures? Or are we looking for true wisdom?
It is about contentment, not being lazy.
There is a difference between happiness and pleasure. Happiness ALWAYS has to do with well being and benefit. Pleasure on the other hand can be harmful. Think about all the things that can be pleasureable but can also ruin a persons health.Not to mention the fact that a big part of pleasure is psychological. How often can a person find something pleasurable and another person find that same thing displeasureable.Pleasure is never bad in and of itself. It's just often people are willing to do things that are unwise, harmful,selfish to attain pleasure. I think the main thing here is that you're confusing pleasure with happiness.
Great question ! Even i am having the same doubt ? What are your analysis now as a year has passed. I am extremely lazy but also a minimalist. So I just sit around doing nothing. Is something wrong?
the more you have the happier you are, if you consider the costs
Hi Doug , I'm new to your channel as well as a beginner in Buddhist teachings, and I'm finding your videos to be very helpful. Do you recommend any books on the suttas that I should check out? Also , do you have any videos discussing the Buddhist notion of rebirth ?
Hi localnugget and thanks! Check out my playlist on books, especially the videos on key texts and books on early Buddhism. Those should give you some ideas! ruclips.net/p/PL0akoU_OszRjBKHxKj98qtSmcLpBmDWkL
WOW!!! Thats Exactly What God Said About A Rich Man Being Hard For Him To See Kingdom Of God.
Hi Doug! Thank you for another great video :) What is your view on equanimity and contentment vs. innovation drive (eg medical technology advancements that reduce suffering)? Isn't a substantial part of the research arising from unsatisfaction and willingness to change things in the external world? Thanks in advance!
Hi Pedro, I did a video on a similar topic awhile back: Buddhism and ambition: ruclips.net/video/DF4rdQ7FRFY/видео.html
Thank you, I'm sure it's another great video :)
Hi Doug
Please is it possible to have your Facebook link.
Thanks
Yes Mohamed, my page is here: m.facebook.com/onlinedharmainstitute/
I have every day pleasure.
Nichiren Shoshu buddishm.learn me everything.
😁🙏🇯🇵
Pleasure is gross in nature and short lived
Happiness is fine in nature and long lived.
Hi Doug I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on Buddhism's reply to Nietzsche. Particularly to his fear that a reluctance to suffer could lead to a deficit and decline in greatness perhaps even on a societal level. For example how would the Buddha justify the suffering that astronauts had to endure to go to the moon? If you have already made a video on the topic could you please point me to it? Thanks.
I have an earlier video on Buddhism and ambition that might be useful: ruclips.net/video/DF4rdQ7FRFY/видео.html . In general though the Buddha's picture of practice involved a lot of real effort. The question is, towards what should we direct our effort?
live balance simple pleasures, else law of diminishing effects of pleasures,
That's right Rajiv, thanks for the comment!
"objectively, or at least intersubjectivively" I see your philosophy background is peaking through 😂
😄😄 Can't escape it!
Is it pleasure or hedonism that leads to suffering?
It’s craving that leads to suffering.
You should enjoy pleasures efficiently.
I live as a hermit, and take pleasure in a simple life
Well that's wonderful jorgenmoll, if you're happy with it!
better than PAIN!!!
For sure! 😄
Being Nobody is the best way to live a life, I try to de-identify myself these days and I don't like the idea of nationalism or any sort of ******ism. Who am I, you ask ? I am Nobody !
Well maybe so, one has to be careful though because the Buddha also urged us not to fall into nihilism or the view that there was literally no self. See for example: ruclips.net/video/wUDnPy6ACG4/видео.html