What Does Congregationalism Really Look Like?
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- Опубликовано: 25 янв 2018
- What Mark Dever tells his congregation: if I start teaching false things, then because you love me please fire me.
Editor's note: This clip has been taken from a series of lessons 9Marks produced with LifeWay. For more information, click here: www.lifeway.com/n/Product-Fami...
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I would say the key phrase was "A high degree of congregational unity".
Hi where can I get more.information about this topic of church government? Thanks
Howdy I was just wondering...is there any biblical support for the congregation electing a pastor? Like sheep picking a shepherd I suppose?
Well, the Bible is not a manual of church order, but there are a few reasons we should expect this: first, we have no evidence that Paul ever himself appointed pastors. But that's an argument from silence. Second, in Acts 6, we see that these proto-deacons (the other office of the church) were explicitly picked by the congregation from among the congregation. Third, when Paul rebukes churches like in Corinth and Galatia, he holds the members responsible for the poor or false teaching, implying that they have the authority to select or at least fire their teachers. Fourth, the church itself has the authority to add or remove members (Matthew 18, 1 Corinthians 5), again showing us that congregation holds the most fundamental authority in the local church.
@@keltonzac
Hi keltonzac, that's very interesting. So even though Paul appoints Timothy and Titus, (2tim 1:6, 2:2, Titus 1:5) and tells both of them to appoint pastors, as well as give them alone the qualifications to look for, you maintain that congregations should choose their leaders? It seems like an awkward position to take given that scripture goes the opposite direction; top down leadership (the Father sends the Son, the Son appoints apostles, the apostles pass authority down, and command them to do the same.) I understand the appeal to Acts 6 of course, but even the deacons didn't become deacons until the apostles appointed them as such.(Acts 6:3,6) The best case I think that can be made from scripture is a nomination to leadership, but someone in leadership over the nominee still has the responsibility to appoint them.
I'm not sure what your point was regarding the church at Corinth, maybe you could elaborate on the congregations need to remove a bad pastor. I can't say I've ever come across that but it would certainly be interesting. Thanks for your reply:)
@@nickswicegood4316 Hey there! Well, first I wouldn't agree that Paul appointed Timothy or Titus as pastors, but I bring that assumption to the text. There isn't much data to go with here, so obviously it is going to be influenced by how I understand church authority from other texts. I would say that Timothy is certainly a pastor, but even within his letter to Timothy Paul notes that congregations pick their leaders (2 Tim. 4:3, "accumulate for themselves teachers.") 2 Tim. 1:6 is a reference, in my view, not to Paul appointhing him to the office but to the task of ministry, and 2 Tim. 2:2 simply is exhorting Timothy to continue to teach the apostolic faith. Titus, it seems, isn't particularly a pastor, but is overseeing that all the churches of Crete have pastors. In fact, since Paul expects him to leave Crete, it seems like he has just a quick task to accomplish there. But, this is where I agree with your statement that it took the apostles appointment in Acts 6 to make deacons deacons - as it takes Titus' appointment in Titus 1:5 to make pastors pastors. But the book of Titus does not describe how Titus is to select these pastors that he appoints - why can't it be the congregations choice? Certainly the New Testament describes a transitional time, and it seems that the churches that Titus is working with in Crete do not have pastors who can do this "Acts 6" appointing work. But yes, I would agree that pastors chosen by the congregation are finally appointed to that work by the pastors. Re: Corinth and Galatia; if we think that elders themselves are most fundamentally responsible for the teaching in a church, then it would stand to reason that Paul should address his rebukes to the elders and pastors of the Corinthian and Galatian church - but he does not. He addresses his rebukes for false teaching to the congregation, to those who are tolerating it. And, re: your comment that this seems to be contra the normal pattern of Scripture, e.g. the Father sending the Son, I would argue that this kind of leadership selection accords with the nature of the New Covenant community. Stephen Wellum makes a strong argument for this in his chapter on Congregationalism in the book "Baptist Foundations," if you're curious. That book is an excellent on this whole topic, btw. Cheers.
@@keltonzac
Hey thanks my friend. Im a little worried about the use of 2tim 4:3 to try and advocate for congregational polity since the first half of the verse says that the people will not tolerate sound doctrine, but accumulate teachers. To me, this isn't complicated. If we have clear scripture (Titus 1:5) that gives the directive of appointing pastors to an individual leader (eusebius calls Titus the first bishop of Crete) and nowhere grants the right to a congregation, and the only verse that describes the accumulation of teachers is negative, AND the only two times we get a list of qualifications is in pastoral Epistles, not generally to congregations, I just don't know what else scripture needs to say. I see absolutely no evidence for congregational voting, yet it's taken as obvious by so many denominations.
@@nickswicegood4316 Are you Baptist? I suggest reading Baptist Foundations. It'll present the case far clearer than I can in a RUclips comment. But, 1 Corinthians 5 and Matthew 18 make it pretty inescapably clear that the congregation, not pastors, acts on matters of church discipline.